Calvinism Isn't Crazy!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 มิ.ย. 2024
- In this second installment in my series on theological triage, I offer three appeals for peace and mutual understanding between Calvinists and non-Calvinists (Arminians, Molinists, etc.). See my previous video introducing theological triage: • Theological Triage: Wh...
Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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00:00 - Introduction
04:11 - 1) Compatibilism: It's a "Both-And"
12:01 - 2) Augustine and Aquinas on Unconditional Election
18:01 - 3) The Other Options Are Also Difficult
23:50 - A Final Image
This is a preliminary comment, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks of Calvin and Hobbes everytime I hear about Calvinism! XD Love that illustration!
The artist behind Calvin & Hobbes named Calvin after John Calvin :)
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it
Me too. To keep them apart in my mind, I remember that the sane one is the one with a stuffed tiger as his friend.
We had 2 cats named Calvin & Hobbes. Sadly Hobbes died. Calvin is still with us. So yes. I do too😊
@@mynameis......23I just read everything you write and none of it debunks Catholicism
Rather it strengthens Catholicism
I already knew you were a Calvinist… I may disagree, but I still highly respect you. You are a man of God and a theologian worth your dollar!
Same here 👍
worth exactly 1 dollar.... haha Jk love you Gavin!
While I am not persuaded by Calvinism nor its compatibilism (I’m currently somewhere between Molinism and Reformed Arminianism at the moment), I just want to say how much I appreciate your humble charity towards non-Calvinist positions in this video. As a non-Calvinist myself, I am often frustrated with popular pastors and theologians I listen to (and learn from and enjoy I might add) as they strawman other positions and paint them in the worst light. Worse, many speak of non-Calvinists as though they are beneath them in intelligence/biblical literacy or “just hate God’s sovereignty” - which as you know is totally unfair. And trust me, I know Calvinists get painted uncharitably as well - I hate when both sides do this. Thank you so much for modeling the respect and humility that is required for doing theology and promoting unity in the church! Especially on an issue like this one!
Edit: additionally, a good book on this topic is Dr. Kenneth Keathley’s ‘Salvation and Sovereignty’. That book gets the closest to where I am at currently in my thinking and I highly recommend it to others!
(Unfortunately by editing this comment by recommending the book - TH-cam removed Dr. Ortlund’s ❤️ on my comment. Shoot! That was a badge of honor. Lol)
Hey-I’m Anglican and basically consider my position on the issue to be between Molinism and Reformed Arminianism as well. 👍🏻
Same here, though I have a great respect for Calvinism now
3 cheers for reformed arminianism!
For the reformed arminians, what do you think about Gavin's point about the difficulties that are still involved in your view...namely that God knows he is creating some people who will not inherit eternal life and he could not create them but does anyways... does this trouble you? and What do you guys do with Romans 9?
@@Golfinthefamily Read The Potter's Promise. It hits Romans 9 really hard and is excellent. God knowing that we will sin does not mean that He authored it or willed it. I knew that my son would sin before I created him. I also know that he will have to make a choice to serve God or the world. Knowing this doesnt make me evil. God, on the other hand, knowing what we would do planned the sacrifice of himself for us for our sake. Calvinism doesn't make the origin of evil better, only worse.
I so appreciate your candor and humility in presenting this topic. As a non Calvinist I agree so much that we are all on the same team and it's an honor to be sharpened by and link arms with those of different views. Would love to see you and Leighton Flowers discuss this topic sometime! I think both of your kind spirits would make for a very productive conversation. Thank you for what you do!
It’s very frustrating to watch Leighton consistently portray Calvinists as people who believe that God pro-actively causes humans to sin.
@@toughbiblepassages9082 There are many leading, popular Calvinists who do think exactly that (ex Piper). Also, even you don’t say that at surface level, Flowers argues that it’s a logical conclusion.
@@toughbiblepassages9082 that is the logical conclusion of Calvinism.
- God determines everything that happens.
-Human sin happens
- Therefore God determined Human Sin.
🤷🏾♂️
@@lauromartinez8948 Excellent, it is really just that simple: laying it out like you have makes it impossible to deny.
God rest
@@syndicatesanctuary8692it’s not impossible to deny if you deny the first claim that God determines everything that happens. God makes it abundantly clear in Jeremiah 7:31 that He doesn’t determine evil when He says, “And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, 👉which I did not command, 👉👉nor did it come into my mind.” Also John’s statement by the Holy Spirit in 1 John 1:5, “This is the message we have heard from Him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and 👉in Him is no darkness at all.” God cannot author evil of evil is not within Him. Evil is the consequence of free-will choices of imperfect beings when they’re not relying on God. God may allow evil to play out to certain degrees, but He absolutely isn’t the cause or determiner of evil by His own words.
I'm not a big fan of debates, but it would be interesting to see a dialogue between you and Soteriology 101 on the channel! Excellent video as always
Second this!
Yes, I feel like Leighton is one of the few people who can keep up in this conversation AND be friendly toward his opposers.
Yesss! would love to see a dialogue between these two.
Yes please!! Two of my favorite Christian content creators having a discussion on a topic I’ve obsessed over for two years! Need it
Yup. Leighton Flowers is one of the best opponents of Calvinism, and he actually keeps up with what Calvinist arguments entail.
He doesn’t ignore the heavy hitters. I remember watching him review a sermon/presentation by a Calvinist expert (academic or scholar, I think).
My pastor quoted what Whitefield said about Wesley probably about 12 years ago, that quote has stuck with me. I never remembered where the quote originated, thanks for bring my pastors memorable sermon into my memory and thanks for the great content
One of the difficulties I have with Calvinism is that it seems to depart from the mainstream of patristic thought (outside of Augustine). For example, I came across this quote from John of Damascus On The Orthodox Faith ch. 44, "One needs to know that although God has foreknowledge of all things, he does not predetermine all things, for he has foreknowledge of what what depends upon us, but he did not predetermine it."
John is then quick to assert the necessity for God's grace in human virtue. But is this not more in line with what we conceive today as classic arminianism? What role should church history play in helping us come to theological conclusions on these issues.
Many Calvinists present the logic for calvinism as a logical conclusion of reading Romans 9 or Ephesians 1. But is that is true, why is this not the mainstream view much earlier in church history?
Calvin is usually pretty good with quoting fathers to support his claims, however in this one area he is absolutely terrible. He cites Augustine and then states point blank that the fathers universally agree with him.
Clement 1 has a lot of quotes that sound very mainstream Calvinist, but of course, none of the fathers are ever on the same page. Most of them had Platonic thought, which is determinist. Acts 4 seems to show how the people of that day viewed God’s sovereignty . Of course, like many things, it’s a complicated issue.
I would say that all Christians throughout history have struggled to understand man’s role within God’s overall Providence. In my view, Calvinism is really just a deep and serious extension of Providence which has always been believed by the Church.
🎯 Amen. Because heresies and false gospels crept in later.
Jesus didn't tolerate false teaching. Neither did his apostles. Paul had no compunction about calling people adulterers, or warning against even a little leaven, or handing over someone to satan for a time for discipline. Jesus said to shake the dust off your feet. Today, Christians want to give public platforms and have open debates with unbelievers.
If Paul walked into churches today he would be run out of town and seen as "hateful" and "divisive."
@@zemotheon12987 Calvin doesn’t say that whatsoever. He admits that only Augustine got it right and that the other fathers were generally confused
Ohh boy. A lot of people do not like Calvinism and will definitely be upset to see you are a Calvinist. I’m excited for more videos on Calvinism though.
I'm thankful to have Gavin put a wrench in people's stereotypes of calvinists and maybe take down some roadblocks that keep them from considering it.
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it...
Funny that Lutheran Reformation, Swiss Reformation, and English Reformation all started with the Predestination/Election concept. It's the Protestantism's original view, but disdained by so many ungrateful Protestants
@@thomasc9036 Looking from a 21st century lense it would seem that in many ways Radical Reformation ended up being the predominant view today in comparison to the Magisterial Reformers.
@@Particularly_John_Gill If you are referring to like Anabaptists, I doubt early Radical Reformation had any comprehensive theology. They were more concerned with what is not than what is. They were mostly concerned with living a separate communal lives than theological treatises, imho.
I appreciate the well argued, coherent defence of Calvinism. As a Wesleyan/ Arminian I appreciate the presentation but am not convinced by it.
however it would be good if both sides of the argument follow your example and we don't attack strawmen presentations of the other side or make overly forthright and strident presentations of our own side
Glad to see you do a brief overview on the topic. I'm not a Calvinist myself, but I'm looking forward to your longer video... If/when you get to it, of course!
For me I attend a reformed baptist church.
But they lost me at limited atonement.
That I reject 100%
But I have learned to live in peace and respect with them.
I think I can see both sides of the limited atonement debate. I understand it at one level because only the elect will be saved so you might say that atonement was limited to the elect. but I have no problem with unlimited atonement either. A Reformed pastor once told me that Calvin himself did not believe in limited atonement. I will have to do some research on that.
Soteriology 101 dialogue plz make it happen!
Bump
Bump
Bump
Pumpkin
@@daMillenialTrucker fraternity
love this. Solid brother! I love how you bring in the historic definitions of freedom as non external coercion. Thats the mystery! As a Reformed
Anglican (I feel like we're a dying breed), I give this a hearty amen!
I AM SO THANKFUL TO THE LORD I FOUND YOUR CHANNEL!!! Praise the LORD!!
glad its of use to you!
Gavin, I'd really like to dialogue personally. My thoughts (greatly condensed):
1) Most non-Calvinists would love to "have mutual peace and understanding with Calvinists". But nearly everytime we've tried this the Calvinists label us as liberal believers at best, enemies of the gospel at worst. We appreciate your work in aiming to change this!
2) I believe that, in hopes for unity, you are softening Calvinism. Calvinism is soteriological determinism from T to P...with a postscript in tiny font: "but man is responsible for all his decisions". Saying that Calvinism is 100% God and 100% free will seems disingenuous.
3) In the same vein as #2, I'd assert that you are changing the meaning of Unconditional Election. Most non-calvinists would agree with TULIP as a general term, but deny each point once we learn its technical description. UE's technical definition includes the belief that saving faith is a salvific work and therefore must be done by God; this is what non-calvinists would deny.
I recently heard Pastor Orton describe the goal of all believers is to try to learn what the original teachings of Jesus and the Apostles were, and to eliminate historical accretions. I think this is a good reason to affirm Protestantism. But as a former Calvinist, I would say that Calvinistic theology is an historical accretion found within Protestantism. It's roots only go back to Augustine of Hippo. Prior to the 4th century the distinct ways that Calvinists handle scripture were not found in any of the writings of the Church fathers, including those who were contemporaries of the Apostles. There are a few alternatives that better handle the 'both-and' verses Pastor Ortlund listed here other that the non-free free will of compatibilism. Whether you appeal to Molinism, Provisionism, or classical Arminianism you can read those verses without endorsing exhaustive divine determinism. And I would assert that any of these approaches does a better job at getting us closer to what the earliest Christians believed.
First comment on a Gavin Ortlund video. My claim to fame!! 😁 But seriously, thank you Dr. Ortlund for the consistent, clear, and gracious content. You’re an inspiration to me as a Christian and student of history. Thank you for all the time you spend on these videos!
Edit: I guess I was the second comment… dang it! I’ll be first next time 😂
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
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CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
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Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
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1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
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Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
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Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
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We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
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There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
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Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
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The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
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Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
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Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
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Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it...
Hey Gavin...Thanks for the work you put into these videos as I continue on my journey to grow as I learn from men like you that are inspired by the Holy Spirit to put forth these thought provoking answers to questions I didn't even know I had. I never considered myself to be a Calvinist, but what you explained in this video makes a lot of sense to me and I tend to be in total agreement with you. thanks for the work you are doing.
Thank you for the video, brother. I really appreciate the humility and the approach.
Great video pastor Ortlund.
I’m currently attending a Lutheran congregation as I explore my theological understanding, and I really do appreciate your advice to strive for peaceful and respectful dialogue.
My ability to genuinely and humbly look into what every denomination believes has been made so much easier by accepting that these other Christians simply DO believe strongly what they believe. This way, I’m able to say “alright, I get you believe that, I’m not sure I do, can you tell me WHY”
God bless, hope you and your family have a blessed Easter
Although I’m not 100% sure where I stand on these issues yet, it’s interesting how many people start to froth at the mouth whenever Calvinism is mentioned.
I'm one of them. Hate the idea of it.
It's because it's an atrocious interpretive system. Look at John of Damascus' view on Providence... which shows the balanced Orthodox view : )
I have always found the saying : “God writes straight with our crooked lines” to be helpful when I think about Divine Providence . It’s not a solution but it shifts me into a different framework.
Good video. As a former Calvinist, I found a lot of the “both-and” paradox drops off as a provisionist. You can hold to God's sovereignty and his working through things and not be a Calvinist. Blessings. I'm looking forward to watching your debt.
Even the Roman Catholic GK Chesterton says the truth is often paradoxical, and he was a rabid anti-Calvinist.
And, really, how can you not be a Calvinist if you hold to God's sovereignty and His "working through things" if that's what Calvinism is?
Jesus said that there was none good but God. That means Jesus was a Calvinist. Or, more to the point here, Calvin was a Jesus-ist.
Thank you so much for this video. I’m not a Calvinist and while I have always seen Calvinists as brothers and sisters in Christ, part of me still cringed when the topic came up. But listening to your video helped me see the unnecessary division that had formed in my heart towards Calvinists. I’m happy I can now see what’s going on in my heart and put those feelings of division to death. God bless bro, will continue to support your content
Love the video and your heart. The Whitfield quote at the end was perfect. As a Calvinist I have learned from and grown under the teaching of some great non-Calvinists. God’s Spirit is at work in both.
Although, I think think it is also good to point out that there are both Calvinists and non-Calvinists who hold to their views for purposes of self-justification. The Calvinist feeling self-approved because of their self perceived intellectual superiority. Meanwhile, the non-Calvinist feeling that what separates them from the lost is their own libertarian free will and not the grace of God. My disdain is for the heart with which many hold to their views.
"Give me Ravenhill over 10 dead calvinists"- Paul Washer... I'm thankful for all those who desire to follow Christ and convict me to repentance and holiness and God's grace
Actually, despite our free will, we're all sinners and despite our repentance and humbling through faith, God responds to that freely by forgiving us, in accordance to the parameters of salvation that he set up.
Thanks Gavin! Heartfelt ending! I say like many others, I don't agree with Calvinism, but the video was humbling. Christ love! ✝️
Really enjoying your videos. They are thoughtful and show a great knowledge of church history. I am Christian Reformed myself, so very oriented toward Calvinism. You are right that most people don't understand it.
Reformed baptist here and I LOVE THAT YOU SAW THAT IN PERELANDRA AS WELL
As more of a classical Arminian by choice, I really appreciate this video. I used to despise the Calvinist view when I was much more immature in the faith. I may disagree with your theological conclusions, but must agree entirely with the humility with which you approach them. Thank you for being such an example of how to handle these questions, Dr Ortlund! Now I'm off to find my 25 year old self to show him this video. ~
Hey brother, I come across many who have much hate towards Calvinism, could you share why you despised it so much in the beginning? God bless
Thanks for making this video Dr Ortlund! I consider myself squarely in the Arminian camp, though between you and other online pastors I've grown a lot warmer to Calvinism in practice (that is, the way we process and understand our nature's and God's and the interplay aren't as different as I thought.)
In particular, the way you distinguished the unconditional election component was really interesting, because I had never heard it explained that way before. I ought to look more into that area, because predestination, foreknowledge, and sovereign decrees are all still jumbled together in my head and I'd like to be able to parse them out, mentally and verbally.
This is exciting! I cant wait to go through this whole series :)
Thanks for this Gavin! So helpful as always. Request for a video in the theological triage series… different attitudes to the culture war, theonomism, etc. I see this issue tearing apart the family of God, both online and in my local ministry context. There is a great need for careful, charitable, peaceable dialogue around these issues, listening to the best examples not the worst, taking the issues seriously while maintaining unity, etc etc. Would love to hear your thoughts on this!
Thankyou for being a gracious Calvinist! I do feel though that you softened Calvin's own description of his Soteriology. I would be interested to hear you chat with Leighton Flowers on this subject.
If Calvinism were true, specifically unconditional election could you do a video on why evangelism is important?
The most important reason is the Jesus tells us to do it. Also, since God decrees the ends and the means, nobody knows who the elect is. It’s the same issue with any evangelicalism, nobody knows who the elect are, whether it’s through autonomous free will or God’s choice. It is our job to proclaim the gospel and the elect are up to God. Calvinism simply elevates God to his rightful place, the creator and controller of all things. We also choose to affirm the biblical definition of free will, the fact that men will freely choose what they desire most and without God, men are dead in their sins and are in rebellion from God. Men freely choose what they desire and God is in control of all things
Love how Gavin continually provides a perspective of grace towards both sides!
Excellent breakdown of all these ways of thinking!!! Thank you!
You're right, it's not crazy, it's satanic.
Hi! I have a question for you. During college I had a lot of conversations with a particular fellow student who was deep into Calvinism and honestly it was one of the main things she ever wanted to talk about. Because of that, unfortunately, I think I got the idea that Calvinists don't care as much about things like preaching the gospel, only about proclaiming this particular doctrine.
I once had a conversation with her about whether God loves those who reject him ultimately. She said that Calvinism teaches that God does not and has never loved these people. I then asked her how she could make sense of that in light of Christ's teaching to love our enemies. Would Christ ask us to do something that God himself does not do? She didn't have an answer for that, but I was wondering what your opinion is. First of all, is it an essential teaching of Calvinism? Do all Calvinists believe that God only loves the elect? If so, how would you respond to my objection?
(I can imagine that one might say, Christ tells us to love our enemies because we're not God and we don't know if they are truly our enemies. They may be predestined to repent at a later time. But that doesn't settle the issue in my mind, given the context of the passage in Matthew 5, where Christ then directly relates the command to the actions of God as an example.)
I respectfully disagree with the title that Calvinism isn't crazy. I believe it to be irrational and unbiblical. I do not reject Augustinianism/Calvinism because I don't understand it, I reject it because I understand it and its ultimate entailments. I've studied it through and through and it is always left wanting, and it is unfortunate that so many well-meaning Christians, in wanting to give God maximal glory, end up slandering His character with these "doctrines of grace". Calvinism at a glance seems to make sense of some of the harder to understand passages of the Bible, but if you dig deeper, it reveals false dilemmas, contradictions, paradoxes, confusion, and ultimately it puts God's character in question. I challenge those who are teachable to research the historical origins of Calvinism, that it was actually brought into the church by Augustin of Hippo, and adopted and popularised by Calvin about 1000 years later, not to mention that the first 400 years of the church had no such doctrines. Please watch these testimonies from, former 5-point Calvinists who are learned men of God’s word:
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May God open your eyes to the truth, and may it set you free, God bless.
Thankyou Dr Ortlund for this gracious perspective on Calvinism. I pretty much agreed with all you said and I wouldn't call myself a Calvinist. I totally agree we should not show contempt for those who hold a different position. Each view is not the others enemy and therefore we should not hold the people as such.
Same!
I suggest searching for and reading the article How John Calvin Made Me Catholic by Dr. David Anders of Called to Communion. In fact, I'd like to see a dialog between David Anders and Gavin Ortlund.
Would love to see a discussion or debate with Leighton Flowers , Soteriology 101
Fantastic explanation as usual, brother. Thank you!
Is it possible, in reference to Augustine’s quote regarding John 15:16, the idea of choosing for salvation vs. appointing as apostles to bear fruit are conflated? Is this passage referring to salvation?
I’d love a video on the definitive biblical passages for you regarding Calvinism. You mentioned of course Romans 9, but maybe your top 5?
I agree that humility is very much needed!! Appreciate this message a lot - it’s good to be encouraged by a fellow reformed brother in Christ!
@TruthUnites I've been following you for a while and I love your videos but I'm curious - do you believe regeneration precedes faith? Do you address the concerns regarding Calvinism in another video? Thanks
Greetings, Gavin. Thanks for all the material you put out. I so appreciate your evenhandedness, curtesy, and intentionality in giving everyone fair-play. You’re someone who, when I watch, I don’t cringe thinking about someone holding the opposing view watching the video. In fact I enjoy recommending you to those who differ on various theological views because of your fairness and demeanor. On that note, I was wondering if you’ve ever seen the Soteriology 101 channel with Leighton Flowers. His channel is essentially dedicated to being against Calvinism, but he too seems to display a genuinely charitable view towards those with contrary views. I can’t help but think how fruitful a debate/ discussion between you to would be for both sides. Is that something you would consider doing in the future?
I'm sorry, but Calvinist position really is an oxymoron to me. You can't say that evil is both happening because of God's sovereign will, apart from any creaturely influence, and that God is NOT the author of evil. It is literally impossible, it's logically contradictory to make these two statements fit a single theory. The only way out of this is by acknowledging that the reason why creatures are capable of evil is because God gave them free will - to do either good or bad, according to THEIR own will, and that he simply accepts that, as it brings out more good than evil from his perspective, and is worth the cost. You can repeat that it's somehow possible as much as you want dr. Gavin, and so can other Calvinist authors, but there is a reason only 0.3% of Christians are 5 point Calvinists today, even though the theory has been around for a few hundreds years. It's because it's not true, and vast majority of Christians today, and throughout the history has clearly understood this.
The Bible gives us many very clear examples of how God and free will works, and Job is a pretty good example, because it even gives at us insight into what's happening on the heavenly plane.
1. God rejoices in Job doing good things.
2. Satan comes and wants to tempt Job to curse God by taking everything away from him. In other words, he wants to do an evil thing, and provoke another creature to do an evil thing in the process.
3. God says - I'LL ALLOW IT. Not "this is what I've planned all along" nor "this is what I desire" he says "I'll will let you do as YOU choose".
4. Job goes through his horrible loss and survives the temptations, refusing to sin by blaspheming God.
5. God rewards Job and through the evil that Satan wanted to accomplish, he brings out greater good - both for Job, personally, and for the whole world, as we receive Job's story as Inspired Scripture to be an example for us all. And thus, we learn why God allowed the evil to happen in the first place, even though he is good an incapable of evil - to bring out the greater good out of the creaturely evil choice.
Did God plan the evil?
No. A creature did.
Did God implement the evil personally?
No. A creature did.
Did God tempt Job?
No. A creature did.
Did God WANT the evil to happen?
No. A creature did.
All God ever did, was ALLOW things to happen, according to the will of others.
He did step into the history personally, but only at the end, to bring out the greater good out of the whole mess. He did not control or manipualte anyone in the process into making different choices.
So no, Job's story did not happen according to "God's sovereign will". Calvinism is just not true. it happened because God KNEW that it would bring out the greater good - since he knows all of the future time and choices that are going to be made - and therefore, he allowed the evil to happen, BY the choices and actions of other creatures.
And this is how consistently happens in Scripture all the way through. When God tells Israelites that he is giving them a choice not to sin, he really means it. He isn't just lying to them and secretly planning for them to fail all along. He knows they will, and plans a savior for them beforehand - but he is really giving them a choice. He is not the author of their evil. When Eve picks the apple, she doesn't even have the mortal sin or evil nature to excuse her evil desires. She is literally a pure creature, and she chooses to disobey God out of her own free will. When God told her not to eat from the tree, he didn't secretly plan for her to eat it. He really meant for her to not do it and gave her a genuine choice, but she didn't listen. He knew she wouldn't and planned a savior for her and her offspring beforehand, as he knows all of the future and choices, but she was the one implementing evil by her own choice. It was not God's choice, or will, or desire, to curse his own creation, and I have no idea how you or any other Christian could ever believe that.
And it's not just that Calvinism is illogical and unbiblical, it's first and foremost dangerous to Christians. Perhaps you really are an awesome Christian dr. Gavin, and you can keep your spirits up even when sin comes knocking on your door. And you can evangelize even though you know deep inside that you can't change anything by either evangelizing or not evangelizing - because God literally already picked those who will be saved in spite of anything they can do personally, and that your creaturely influence changes absolutely nothing. You may do it simply because of your love for Lord and out of obedience. But not many Christians can do that and you should be able to understand it. I doubt even all of your kids when they grow up will be able to repeat your feat. I've met countless Calvinists who do not evangelize or seriously neglect it because they are convinced that it's literally pointless, not saving anybody from anything, and only a sign of obedience. And the exact same goes for their attitude towards repentance from sin. If I had a penny for every Calvinist who told me he is saved, even though he lives in sin, I'd buy Tesla brand by now. Calvinism provokes Christians to be lazy. It reduces the importance of the great commission and living out the gospel given to us by Christ himself by asserting they have nothing to do with the final verdict regardless of what they do. And no matter how many times you will tell them: LISTEN, YOUR CHOICES HAVE MEANING! EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE PREORDAINED! They know that it doesn't make sense, and just take the easy way out - and end up believing it just doesn't matter what they do.
Great points. It would be interesting to see a Calvinist response to some or all of these.
@Neon Tygers well, like I said, I could never believe what you just quoted, because it just makes God evil. Adam and Eve were finite and could not choose good? So what the heck was God doing asking them not to sin, he was lying to their faces? He DESIRED for his perfectly good creation to fail? I'm sorry, that is not the God of the Bible. God of the Bible does not desire evil, or tempts anyone to do it.
@Neon Tygers No. God desiring and planning for Adam and Eve to sin is evil. If it's his "sovereign will" for them to sin, he is evil.
@@mitromney Look into the types of decrees. Efficacious and permissive.
@@mitromney Very curious about where you got the .03% statistic.
As a Calvinist this really was a blessing. It’s good to see Calvinism defended with humility, too often those in our theological camp are so arrogant and I can be too, and I truly don’t understand why we do this.
I’m thankful for my non-Calvinist brother’s and sisters, I pray we can be United on the most important issues and have friendly dialogue about other important issues.
Thank you for this comment. I was always super put off by Calvinism and Calvinists because the first ones I came into contact with came across as either arrogant or just unwilling to hear another side.
Lately I've been realizing that because of how put off I've been by Calvinism, I've created my own little crusade to tear it down! Lol, so doing exactly what I've always been frustrated at the Calvinist side for doing. It's interesting how that happens. It (for me) comes down to pride of course, and not putting God before my beliefs.
Anyways, like I said, thank you for your comment, because that humility is refreshing, and it's something I need as well!
@@christinalafferty6073
Calvinism is just nonsensical. I am not sure it is harmful if taught, but to me it is self evidently untrue. In my opinion, its just the case of clever theologians overthinking a passage of scripture to violate basic common sense of how human beings operate.
@@gideondavid30 I'm not saying you're wrong or right on that, I'm just thanking this person for their humility in this comment, and commenting on my personal journey. I'm not a fan of Calvinism, particularly certain aspects, but my personal attempt to prove Calvinists wrong all the time comes from me being rigid, and that's something for me to work on. I need humility just as much as the first Calvinist I encountered did. Even if I am having a conversation about why I disagree with them.
@@christinalafferty6073 Sure humility is always important. I just feel like I am being punked when people try to articulate this doctrine... Very intelligent people with a straight face insist that this is how God's sovereignty operates.
@@gideondavid30 that's totally fair. I'm with you on that. I have had conversations with family who lean Calvinist and one of them made a point to keep making sure I knew that God was right in everything He does. Which I absolutely agree with!! But I had trouble trying to articulate why I still don't agree with Calvinism lol. It's frustrating.
What frustrates me the most is misrepresentation of the non-calvinist side. If I feel like I'm not being misrepresented, I think that it can at least be a decent conversation.
Do you have a video on the historical lineage of the Calvinistic view? I have loved so much of your content and as a non-calvanist, and a strong opponent of it, I would enjoy your overview of the historical lineage of that view. We are always so precise and gentle with handling texts so I would be very open to your presentation compared to many others.
I didn't know you were a Calvinist, you sounded so reasonable on the other video I saw (pause for laughter). To be serious, I love your honesty and lack of rancor.
Hey Dr. Ortlund, love your work. You're correct, I was completely shocked to find that you are a Calvinist. Would you be willing to reach out to Dr. Leighton Flowers for a discussion on this subject? I don't affirm Calvinism personally, but I would be very interested to see if you are able to help unpack the issues further, in combination with some of Dr. Flowers thoughts on the subject. Thanks for what you do Dr. Ortlund.
Thanks for this video!! I have to be honest... The way you describe the both/and thing makes a whole lot of sense to me. I'm not a Calvinist, but the both/and is what keeps me from discarding it in its entirety. But unfortunately, I've never heard any Calvinist describe it in that way. Anyway, I like your take on it, and I do agree that it helps the discussion (at least for me)
Edit: I also love that you said that in no view are all the questions taken off the table!! So true!
great video....how do you get the lighting so good in your videoing? awesome!!
I'm curious: do you think Edward's view is compatible with Reformed orthodoxy? I tend not to but curious for your thoughts
Hey Gavin, love this video and your approach to being charitable.
I'm a Molinist, and I personally would consider myself an incompatibilist. I don't see compatibilism as coherent.
I think your response to that is interesting. "God interacts with the world in a distinct manner than any other entity" or something along those lines. I could see that being the case, even if I still think my intuitions disagree. My intuition still can't reconcile the two. But I really enjoyed the video!
Looking forward to hearing this series- I study early church history and wonder if the very early church believed in predestination as Calvin defines it, I personally haven’t run across into any early patristic teachings (other than Augustine) that spoke about this
And Augustine, I believe from what I’ve read, was influenced by gnostic doctrine, especially in his debate against Pelagius. You can correct me if I’m wrong.
there is 0 support for calvinism by the first christians, who predate the bible itself. Its not until Augustine do you fine one thing reminiscing calvinism and the only reason he believed that was because he was reading his former manichean gnosticism into the scriptures.
Would love to see videos in response to Arminian objections. There is also a 600-page book coming out with IVP (I think) titled “Calvinism: A biblical and theological critique”. Would love to hear more on Calvinism, Molinism & Arminianism. Thanks, Gavin!
Hey Dr. Ortlund, how does this issue relate to theological triage and also the desire for confessionalism. It seems difficult to remain confessional and also allow both views in a local church setting.
I really appreciate how you approached this topic. As you mentioned briefly, my experience with Calvinists is typically accompanied by arrogance and superiority. That’s not to say I haven’t heard non-Calvinists make arrogant arguments as well, but they typically come from the Calvinist side. Thank you for making your case in a respectful way that shows the challenges on both sides. I look forward to hearing more from you on this topic!
Gavin does it right. Calvinism should induce in each of us a deep humility as we come to realize just how profoundly gracious God has been to us and how much we depend on Him. But unfortunately as many people begin to “figure it out”, the “knowledge puffs up” until it really “sinks in”.
Why do you think that is? Why are many of them arrogant and act superior? Is it the fruits of Calvinism?
@@morghe321 that’s a good question. In all fairness, most Calvinists I know come from a highly-educated backgrounds, which may make some feel superior. Others I know come from Presbyterian churches that have exceptional hierarchal rigor in defining “correct” teaching from the pulpit, which naturally gives the impression their church has exclusive claim on correct doctrine. So I would say arrogance and superiority are not a “fruit” of Calvinism, but rather an associated temptation that we need to be aware of. Anyone who studies much can easily fall into the trap of pride (myself included).
@Bod Dodson, thanks for your reply. Do highly educated people act superior though? Well, I guess they do, to an extent, as humans are what they are. But Christians certainly shouldn't act that way. But if it's because they're highly educated, we would assume the same phenomenon applies to other denominations, like, say Lutherans, Methodists, or Pentecostals as well. Or do Calvinists generally have a higher education than those of other denominations? Funny, I can't recall anyone complaining about Pentecostals acting superior or arrogant. I'm not Pentecostal myself, so I'm not boasting here, lol, just an observation.
Just saw a great video by Beyond The Fundamentals on how there is no grace in calvinism. Good stuff.
Grace is a gift... and in calvinism that's all it is... pure grace... no works, no one's decision from themselves...just a gift completely independent of someones works. Romans 9... before they were born one he loved and one he hated. I guess this all comes down to how you define grace as well.
Great video!
My question is off topic tho, Any great book recommendations on the Trinity?
Excellent video! I was wondering, what do you think about non-deterministic thomistic soteriology? It's monergistic, but affirms resistible grace and unlimited atonement.
Maybe it has some problems, I would appreciate your comments on that. Thanks for the content! God bless!
My fundamental problems with Calvinism (and Christian hedonism for that matter) is that it makes God to be a monster worse than the devil, and I’ve seen how this has harm the psyches of myself and others. When I was a kid who knew nothing, I was hearing preachers speaking with such authority that God elects some for salvation and some to be burned alive forever in Hell, so I view Calvinism, infernalism, and eternal conscious torment extremely negatively.
Agreed! God has made provision!! For everyone!
As a Calvinist-I can appreciate how you got to your view. I disagree because I am a Calvinist but when stuff happens when we are kids. I do not think I would have came to the same place knowing what I know and my experiences in the past. I tend to be a fighter and did not realise that for a long time. Some are more sensitive (and that is not bad) but others of us are ready to take on the devil. We all have our gifts and hopefully this does not come across as feeling like I am better or more spiritual or more. Good example, my best friend sometimes thinks he is a fighter. One day I had to tell him the truth...your not a fighter...your a cheer leader. Know your role and embrace it.
Hi Daniel! I'm a confused Catholic. I'm more familiar with RCC/EO soteriology, and I find it very balanced and logical. I thought I was on the path on embracing Protestantism because of the bloated devotional doctrines of the RCC; I was fed up with them. But I'm starting to get too tangled up in all these Reformed theologies. And Calvinism seems to me what you described.
Huge respect for Dr. Outland for putting his own beliefs out there so clearly. At the end of the day, however, the “both”/“and” defence is utterly nonsensical. Compatibilism is determinism. Why not just say determinism and get on with it? Why do calvinists always feel like they have to make an accommodation of some kind for free will? If God has created us a certain way, such that we ALWAYS ‘choose’ in accordance with the nature that god has given us, then say that. It’s ok to reject free will. But these theological acrobatics only muddy the waters for those who are seeking a tradition that will help them on their faith journey.
For the record, I 100% accept the notion of libertarian free will based on what I see in scripture and see no resulting infringement on God’s sovereignty. There are obviously other major concerns with Calvinism, but I’ll leave it at that for now. Thanks again, Gavin, for your thoughtfulness. May you be blessed 😊
very intriguing points. thank you
@truth unites: 2:25: yup, me too, I really enjoy listening to your careful handling of scripture. Then I read your reply to someone’s comment on your being a Baptist where you said something about Baptist/Calvinist, and I thought, “Wait, what?” Don’t know how you manage to get there from careful handling of scripture. I do appreciate your winsome approach!
Good video. I used to be a Calvinist but changed slowly over time. My number one sticking point was that for Calvinism to be true, then faith has to be a work. But many of my best friends are still Calvinists. Thanks again for the video.
If faith is work, Calvinism would not be true. We argue that faith is not work that earns you salvation, but rather a result of God's effectual call.
@addjoaprekobaah5914 also faith by definition is not a work so I'm not sure why this comes up in discussions. We are commanded to believe in Jesus for salvation as its only prerequisite, it cannot be a work in the ephesians 2 sense
This is the first time I have heard Calvinism explained with humility and mystery. Based on this description, I think I might actually be a Calvinist! But I do struggle with that title... I don't want to associate my identity with Calvin (or any other church figure besides Christ).
You mentioned that we must content for the truth; do we have to contend for all truths? If not, which truths do we need to contend for?
Yes, I struggle with titles too... I don't think God is particularly excited to be categorized using one of his own creations' names... but it's just the most practical place to get to brass tacks... or I guess you could say reformed..but that isn't as clear.
I think doctrines of grace is another term
@@Golfinthefamily why do you think God would care if a certain set of beliefs corresponding to how it works is labeled as a person’s name?
I really appreciate Dr Ortlund’s heart behind these topics and I would love to see more on this, especially being a non-Calvinist myself.
One thing I’d love to hear about in a future video is why do you think it’s helpful to use the “author analogy” that you used throughout this video in light of the Westminster’s denunciation of the analogy in the section you quoted at the beginning of the video? If the confession is accurate enough to establish the meaning of compatibilism then why is it not accurate enough to remove the author analogy?
I think that people struggle with the author analogy because it humbles us...we are his workmanship and he can do whatever he wants with it. We are "his fiction" as someone once said (no idea who)... it's humbling and many of us don't like to feel that small.
Really enjoying watching your videos! You mentioned some books that you like on the subject of the church fathers/Catholic Church/Orthodox Church…I’ve recently wanted to dig further into all of this and really see where my Protestant beliefs come from, historically, and how the east/west split came about with their beliefs. Besides the books you mentioned in this video, any more books you’d recommend to get started? I’ve only read a couple intro books for the Orthodox Church (Kallistos Ware), and I feel like I don’t even know where to start!
Read the Epistles of St Ignatius
I understand Calvinism and how the classical reformed had argued and still argue. I still think it's crazy
Love you Gavin.
What objections do you have to molenism?
Lots of calvinist just haven't heard of it, but I'm pretty confident you've given it some consideration. Grounding problems?
❤️
I think my biggest problem it seems that in Molonism, God is limited because He can’t do anything that doesn’t work out in scenarios of Middle Knowledge. Sure, there’s endless scenarios that come from Middle Knowledge, but it still feels like a limitation placed on God, and if there’s a limitation placed on God, I would surely love to see it in scripture. I probably am just missing something.
Former Molinist here. Ultimately, I realized that I believed in Molinism for philosophical and not biblical reasons - I thought it made the best sense of the problem of evil. However, it really doesn't answer the question better than any other soteriological framework (yes, some say it's not soteriology but in this context I think it is.) I was slowly converted to reformed theology by studying church history and above all, scripture. Much love to my Molinist brothers and sisters, though.
@@noobitronius hi AJ. You might want to check out the view of Father Most I reference in one of my other comments on this video. It’s a Catholic view that starts with scripture and Thomas and then proposes a solution (so to speak).
@@toddvoss52 thanks Todd, i could not find your comment but I did find a book (letter? Writing?) available online by Father Most entitled Grace, Predestination and the Salvific Will of God: New Answers to Old Questions
I will certainly check this out. I read the introduction and I appreciate his tone and clarity, thanks again for the recommendation. I am currently entrenched in the study of church history and Catholic/protestant differences, so this will help me with that, as well.
I learn so much from your videos.
yay! Thanks for letting me know, what a great comment to receive!
This was actually rather well done, Gavin, and made quite a bit of sense. I wasn't aware of that Thomas Aquinas quote. That all being said, while I'm not sure I agree necessarily, you do make an at least fairly atrong case for it. Furthermore, what exactly is Mollinism/Mullenism/Molenism (or however you spell it)? Is that like a Lutheran mindset?
I appreciate this. I've been attending a reformed Baptist church and am currently considering membership. I just wish there was more of an understanding attitude towards non Calvinists and a humble approach to the subject giving grace to the understanding of the 'other' side. I am persuaded that God's sovereignty and our responsibility are compatible but from my little experience it seems that many Calvinists seem to pay this idea only lip service in such a way as to make God appear (in my opinion) the author of sin. Why does this view seem to breed arrogance? I really am asking.
Anyway thanks for doing this video. I appreciate your perspective.
I was raised in an Arminian tradition but became more reformed after listening to so many reformed pastors and teachers. I was never taught much of Calvinism growing up so I was reluctant to accept it as a legitimate system of theology, but I also couldn’t reject it after reading verses like “no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44) or “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him” (Ephesians 1:4) and even “and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed” (acts 13:48). People are so quick to dismiss Calvinism as insane, but I’m more than willing to learn more about it because it can’t be a coincidence that all of my favorite teachers are reformed! They tend to be the most theologically conservative and orthodox which is why I prefer Calvinist teachers even if I wouldn’t call myself one
I agree with you. Calvinist teachers are more consistently doctrinally solid. Plus, I feel like it doesn't even come up that much in sermons and teachings.
Watch Soteriology 101
What are your best refutations for provisionist/traditionalist/extensivist soteriology?
Provisionism-God provides everything needed for salvation. We choose.
I appreciate your humility and grace. Would all sides of these issues dig deep and display such fruit.
Thanks, brother.
Yes yes yes! God loves us so much and has provided everything we need to be saved! No pre-determination! He’s died for the CATEGORY of sin. We just take his hand and put our faith in what he’s done!
Given compatibilism, God could have sovereignly determined that all persons would freely and faithfully respond to the gospel. That Calvinists cannot apprehend anything of God's reason for not having determined a universal redemption suggests that Calvinism is a theologically deficient system.
The core question I think you may be getting at is can anything happen outside of God’s ordination without molesting the will of the created being? Or maybe better way to say it God’s sovereign decree and man’s free will. I pleasantly would say I agree to disagree with your understanding of the subject. Gods ways are not our ways and just because we can’t understand something does not mean we are not told to believe it. For example the Trinity, the hypostatic union, and Gods eternality are all things as humans we have difficulty in understanding. How can God be absolutely sovereign yet man be a morally responsible creature? That’s just something the Bible shows that’s impossible for humans to understand fully because we are not God. The fact we disagree though does not mean we can’t have fellowship brother. God bless.
@@mpprod6631man though Calvinism literally kills our best response to the problem of evil though doesn't it? (Our libertarian free will being the cause of evil, not God)
I'm not saying this disproves Calvinism, but how do we deal with the problem of evil under Calvinism?
@@JustAskingQuestions8571 thank you for the question I appreciate the ability to have discourse. Calvinism sees no issue with sin and the sovereignty of God. Causing and ordaining are 2 separate things. God is not human, and His Will is qualitatively different then ours. We see this in scripture very pointedly with the most evil act with the crucifixion of Christ: “this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.” (Acts 2:23, ESV)
“The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." (Matthew 26:24, ESV)
God can Ordain sin without being the cause of it. It rather God is sovereign without being accountable for the action. So, thethe long and short of it is that man is still the cause of evil to the glory of God. God bless.
@@JustAskingQuestions8571 thank you for the question I appreciate the ability to have discourse. Calvinism sees no issue with sin and the sovereignty of God. Causing and ordaining are 2 separate things. God is not human, and His Will is qualitatively different then ours. We see this in scripture very pointedly with the most evil act with the crucifixion of Christ: “this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.” (Acts 2:23, ESV)
“The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." (Matthew 26:24, ESV)
God can Ordain sin without being the cause of it. It rather God is sovereign without being accountable for the action. So, thethe long and short of it is that man is still the cause of evil to the glory of God. God bless.
@@JustAskingQuestions8571 thank you for the question I appreciate the ability to have discourse. Calvinism sees no issue with sin and the sovereignty of God. Causing and ordaining are 2 separate things. God is not human, and His Will is qualitatively different then ours. We see this in scripture very pointedly with the most evil act with the crucifixion of Christ: “this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.” (Acts 2:23, ESV)
“The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." (Matthew 26:24, ESV)
God can Ordain sin without being the cause of it. It rather God is sovereign without being accountable for the action. So, thethe long and short of it is that man is still the cause of evil to the glory of God. God bless.
No I still don't understand...but TULIP was one of the Quordle answers today and the word was conveniently right there at the front of my brain.
Must be a sign. I'll listen again
haha, it's a sign! :)
4:30 Compatibilism: This quote by David Engelsma, a Calvinist theologian, applies both to Compatibilism and to the topic he is directly addressing: "...that God is gracious only to some in predestination, but gracious to all in the gospel, and that God wills only some to be saved in predestination but wills all to be saved by the gospel, is flat, irreconcilable contradiction. It is not paradox, but contradiction. I speak reverently: God Himself cannot reconcile these teachings." --David Engelsma, quoted on Calvinists who retreat to "mystery"
Compatibilism is flat, irreconcilable contradiction.
Gavin, I think you should have a conversation about this with Leighton Flowers, because I think he genuinely has good points, not that you don't also, but I'd love to see a conversation or even a debate!
Great video. You are a great example of a True Christian (in sense of being "Christ-like/a Little Christ" by virtue of being charitable to those who disagree with you & etc) who is a Calvinist, but I'm definitely not a Calvinist.
Awesome explanation of Calvinism! Looking forward to this upcoming series! Thank you Gavin
nice to see an importer/exporter of latex products in our midst
He’s an importer exporter
In the past I've heard of the idea of compatibilism described as affirming God's sovereignty and human moral responsibility, but never taken so far as to suggest that there is some form of human free will that exists in harmony with God's sovereignty. Is that a correct understanding of the first part of your talk? If so, I think a lot of other traditions could get on board with that, Orthodox included.
Gavin, how would you respond to the common Eastern critique that much of Western theology relies too heavily on Augustinian thought?
Libertarian free will is that which is not in harmony with God's sovereignty.
@@hc7385 Yes, indeed. Guillaume Bignon (who was interviewed by Gavin recently) does an excellent job of analyzing compatibilism, explaining how God’s Sovereignty and human responsibility are both true. However, he goes into more detail about it in an interview he did on The Analytic Christian channel.
Does God love everyone? Does God love His enemies? Can we say to people, "God loves you and wants you to be saved."?
I can't worship God if Calvinism is true, because God in the bible is duplicitous in telling us to choose good things, but yet ordains we do otherwise. Nah, I can't rock with that.
I agree with some of your points, as they aren't necessarily in favor of Calvinism. It's not an essential doctrine for salvation, but I think it's one of the biggest issues aside from the gospel, as it can have some dangerous real-world consequences. I believe in God's loving provision for every man, woman and child, which can't truly be said of Calvinism.
"..not much room for contempt of the other options" Totally agree! Question: How much room for contempt is there for the people who have contempt for the folks of other other options?
Good explanation and overview. Appreciate it. I would have appreciate a few more references and connection between historian’s perspective and the Scripture they pulled from.
It is impossible to have any assurance of salvation as a calvinist, without looking at one’s own works (piously called fruit) or experience.
When I finally came to understand the lie of Calvinism, I was able to stand on the promises of the Bible.
Freedom. Peace. After years of anguish (the L in tulip was particularly devastating).
You are absolutely right on your third appeal. For example, in the Catholic Church, predestination is characterized as a mystery and there are several acceptable approaches . Of course a full Calvinistic approach is not. Calvinism is not crazy at all but has been ruled out for Catholics . The reasons for that make sense to me but as you say the problem remains. Hence the mystery. I lean towards the view of Father William Most. His view can be found at the William Most Library in various articles and notes . One which also discusses Augustine in fair detail is titled “St Augustine on Grace and Predestination.” The others which focus on Thomas are : “Predestination” and “Predestination: Reasons for the Centuries Old Impasse.” But they all start with Scripture.
Thanks Gavin for all your hard work. Your videos in my opinion are well done, and well thought out. I'm not calvanist, but I get your position.
I love church history and the Fathers, but i don't always have time to dig into these things. Its good to have something on both sides, and not one claiming absolute monopoly. The church fathers are the church fathers, and are vast in information that can be made to fit both sides. And sometimes they appear more catholic, and sometimes they do not.That's why its good to have both sides reading them, because the church fathers can, and will challenge ones theology.
I’ve watched you for a long time and was shocked to find out you consider yourself a Calvinist, because you are unlike any Calvinist I have ever listened to. I so appreciate your humility and viewpoints, even if I don’t agree 100% of the time.
May God continue to bless your ministry and by doing so, bless the rest of us with superb Christian content. ❤
Soteriology… it’s been a while since I’ve explored the TULIP and predestination.
I’ve watched a lot of Leighton Flowers on one side, James White on the other.
In the midst of these discussions, there was one comment that I didn’t totally understand at the time; it said something to the effect of, “I’m an Arminian on Mondays, Calvinist on Tuesdays.”
Now, I understand exactly what that comment meant. I find myself disagreeing with Perseverance of the Saints and Irresistible Grace on one day but, on another, I find the plain reading of Ephesians 1 and the mountain of proof-texts used by Calvinists to be overwhelming.
Often times, in the grand discussion of predestination and God’s sovereignty, I’ve noticed that Calvinists tend to have the plain reading of many passages in their favor; it’s like Calvinists occupy the high ground, which is why Calvinism is so robust and difficult to debate. You have to bring your A-game to debate a Calvinist.
And much to my dismay, Provisionist and Arminian explanations of Calvinist proof-texts often seem longer and more… gymnastic and forced.
At the moment, I’m not terribly confident in libertarian free-will, but I’m not convinced of limited atonement either.
Much to my surprise, I feel better studying Christology and the Trinity in light of objections to sharpen my confidence. So far, I’m having a blast. Giving to Christ, exaltation, human and divine nature, omniscience, divine attributes overall, etc. Sam Shamoun, Luke Wayne, Matt Slick, and Mike Winger have helped me a lot.
I think I’ll be sticking around in the Trinity realm of discussion for the time being. But I hope that when I return to the more advanced points of soteriology, I’ll have a clear eye.
yes, the plain reading of Romans 9 is pretty hard to see any other way... even if you move toward a more national stance on Jacob and Esau... it's still the choosing of one nation over another... it doesn't really resolve the "problem"
@@Golfinthefamily Exactly ^^
Your comment on Romans 9 reminds me of what Mike Winger said about corporate election (the context may have been about Ephesians 1).
If I recall correctly, Mike said… can the individual be removed from the corporate? The corporate is made of individuals, so corporate election doesn’t deny individual election.
Rather than irresistible grace, I prefer the term effectual grace. A Reformed pastor told me that Calvin himself did not believe in limited atonement. I would appreciate someone weighing in on this yes or no.
It's wise to focus on the Trinity. I think Calvinisms Achilles heel is that it's system starts with the issue of sovereignty and soteriology. Both are important topics but if you (not you personally) start with Calvinism, often times it messes up Christology, anthropology and can distort orthodox Trinitarianism. I believe Calvin rejected the eternal generation of the Son and taught Christ was damned by the Father, both of which are unorthodox or heretical.
@@zekdom A plain reading of Romans 9 that thinks it is talking about unconditional election is no more convincing, any more that than thinking that from “the four corners of the earth” (Is 11:12) results in the plain understanding that the earth is flat. So then to use “plain” as a hermeneutical advantage is too simplistic and results in a reductio.
Calvinistic soteriology took me a while to wrap my head around. But once I removed my cultural projections on various passages and read them in a way that was consistent with 1st century authors, my objections dissipated.
Another bonus: Over the past ~ 30 years, I've written question marks in the margins of my Bible, because there are dozens (literally!) of passages that don't quite make sense. Once Calvinistic soteriology clicked into place, the majority of those questionable passages started to make sense. Three in particular: Deut 28:63 [read the whole chapter first]; Deut 29:4 [read Deut 28 first to get the weight of this verse]; Matt 11:20-25. In fact, that Matthew passage was the linchpin that swung me over to what most would call Double Predestination. There's no way that passage makes any sense without either dismissing it outright (which is what William Lane Craig does) or endorsing Double Predestination. To me, I can't fathom that Jesus would disparage the real torment of tens of thousands of soul as a mere dismissible literary device to make a point about the entire northern Galilee region refusing to repent.
Keep up the great work, Dr.
(And don't waste your time with Theology 101. Dr. Flowers' cognitive dissonance is painful to listen to.)
Agreed Tim, once I really came to an understanding of Reformed Theology… so much of Scripture just came alive.
Thanks Dr. Ortland! Can you make Karl Barth make sense for me?
@Truth Unites I'd be interested in a dialogue between you and Leighton Flowers of Soteriology101. You both are Irenic and gracious in your manner and the conversation would likely be both helpful and cordial.