If you’re taking suggestions for theological triage, I think a video discussing the three main views of hell (the traditional view, annihilationism, and universalism) along those lines would be super helpful.
If you should do this, I hope you will consider the doctrine of Conditional Immortality. I believe this view to be the most biblical of all the perspectives out there. For a brief introduction, please see Edward Fudge's lecture given by the Lenier Theological Library. th-cam.com/video/oHUPpmbTOV4/w-d-xo.html
We must be careful to not adopt the spirit of the age and act like the world- angry, contentious, arrogant and uncharitable. Your approach is exactly what we need more of. Thank you!
But are we adopting the spirit of the more modern age or the spirit of the more historic age? It’s a really complicated issue that we need to use a pastoral heart when discussing
@@Bruised-Reed That's where Gavin's argument goes off the rails. *All* the evidence from the last 120 years proves that the modern approach toward recognizing women as the equal of men in all aspects of governance was the right thing to do.
My pastor and I disagree on this subject. He sites that there is only one scripture in Tim. But what I argue that he is allowing woman to preach is in breach creation and replaced is with culture. Thus bringing our church into disrepute
except that that is NOT the way Jesus, Paul, and Peter addressed false teachers. See Matthew 23, Galatians 1, and 2 Peter 2. When people are being deliberately dense, false and dishonest as the liberals are, a much sterner tone is required.
Scripture is clear on this in my opinion. I’m a woman and not offended by that, I believe and accept what scripture teaches. Rick Warren should just accept the SBC decision since that’s their belief. He’s the one who changed his belief about this, so it’s right for his church to not be part of SBC. His church seems a lot like a non-denominational church anyway. This is dangerous, as he is a very popular pastor, if he will start teaching wrong things, his congregation and others who follow him might believe him.
To say, "Scripture is clear" regarding this issue is not accurate at all. This is precisely why it is still a debate within the Church. It may be your understanding, but it is not for others.
Gavin, I am so grateful for you being willing to address this topic. Truly grateful. I grew up at Saddleback and then spent most of my 20s with deep ecclesial anxiety. Your videos are a significant contribution to my healing and understanding of how to move forward. Thank you so very much ❤
There is a biological weapon confirmed to be affecting primarily men. Maybe get your mind off your vagina because you are going to hell. Start laughing and feel your hell coming.
I am in process of leaving a church because it teaches egalitarianism and highlights that ppl only have gift of HSIf they speak in tongues. Also music is mostly Hillsong, Bethel, Elevation and seems vacuous to me. Attended a Baptist church last Sunday with contemporary music biblically based and hymns. I could actually hear the woman next to me sing!
This was so good loved it, thank you so much for addressing this topic. “As the body of Christ we have to model a better way! We’ve got to assume the best in each other. We’ve got to treat people like human beings, not as caricatures; and that means listening carefully and not assuming the worst.” -Gavin Ortlund ““…You shall not add to it or take from it.” Deuteronomy 12:32 ESV “Throughout the Old Testament law there is this principle of “neither add nor subtract.” Adding on to the rules of scriptures is wrong just like subtracting from them is wrong. So we need to be sensitive to both.” -Gavin Ortlund
It took me a couple of days to work up the courage to watch this video because I've read so many other articles that are very dismissive of women and the way the Spirit has gifted us, and I was scared yours would be the same despite all of the humility you have exhibited in other discussions (sorry!). I read your book Finding the Right Hills to Die On because I spent the better part of 18 months studying the issue of women in ministry and ended up changing my mind (moving from a complementarian to an egalitarian position - for lack of better terms) and I didn't know what to do. I appreciated the wisdom that your book provided and find that all of the practical considerations you gave in this video are exactly the issues that I have faced in deciding to stay where I am for now despite my new position. Thank you for speaking up on this issue despite the risk. Your humility is an important addition to the conversation.
I am going back and watching old videos and found this gem! I am currently studying this subject for myself and I found all your references and thoughts very helpful, as usual!
Thank you, Gavin. I wish others where as calm and irenic as you are about this (I wish that for myself). My church went through this controversy just a few years ago, and it was a complete disaster, and we are still feeling the effects of it. I do not wish this controversy on any local church.
Gavin, your work on this does my heart good. Thank you for your humble, scholarly approach! You are a gift to our time! May the Lord continue to bless you!
What an approach! Humble, loving, level-headed, and gentle. Way to set the tone in how we should approach this topic in our brothers and sisters in Christ. God bless you.😄
Thank you, Gavin. I am grateful for your voice in this. Reasoned, pleading for grace for one another, and I share your burden for the course our culture is headed and the church mimicking this. I am also SBC currently and struggled to see this as a 2nd Rank (leaned more 3rd rank) but you are making me think more about my position as a 3rd rank. Thanks, brother.
I absolutely love your heart on this! 💛💯 I share your burden of concern about how angry and frustrated we've become, about how divided and divisive the church is becoming, and how poorly we treat each other. ⚠️ In fact, it's one of the main motivators for me starting my own channel and hopefully joining the few content creators out there trying to bring peace and reconciliation in the Bride of Christ. 👑 Keep up the great work, Gavin. Don't grow weary of doing good. Your voice is needed. Blessings! 😎👍
My experience has been that when we prioritise unity, it doesn't work. It soon falters on our differences. However, when we prioritise the Kingdom of God and Jesus Himself, unity follows by itself, without even addressing the 2nd and 3rd tier issues. We learn to appreciate our differences, but to focus on the One whom we follow and on the job He gave us on earth - He is our unity when his will (for people to meet Jesus) becomes our greatest desire.
This was excellent - profoundly compassionate and gracious in tone, a thorough, comprehensive response, and lucid (in the most complimentary sense of the word). Will be sharing this!
I absolutely love your treatment of this conversation. While we may not fully agree, I greatly appreciate you’re clarity and conviction. Please keep doing great work and research.
Thank you so much. You are the most charitable and balanced complementarian pastor / theologian I've ever heard so far. May the Lord continue to bless and expand your ministry for His glory.🙏❤
You nailed it. Well done. Prayerful, articulate, knowledgeable, intentional. Thankyouthankyou. (MTS in Church History from Gordon-Conwell here--I can hear all your research. Keep it comin'. Keep being gutsy and winsome.)
Thank you Gavin for this well reasoned and thoughtful video. We need your wisdom and your heart on topics like these. I especially appreciate how you described not all egalitarians being on the road to liberalism just as not all complementarians are abusive and power hungry. Keep up the good work! God bless you!
Thanks for this. It’s helpful to witness you apply your theological triage concepts to current situations. May God bless you for your irenic approach in the midst of all the self absorbed caterwauling on social media today.
I am soft complementarian. I would not want a woman to be a pastor, or teacher on a Sunday morning. The latter happens in my church, not the former. However it is noticeable that our women are better teachers and would arguably also be better at eldership than our men. But I have not found any of the arguments pro women teaching or elders convincing. ( Prophets yes. Teaching children fine.) I would rather go with what seems right by God. But I also would not leave my functioning fellowship where we believe in salvation by grace, look out for the Body, and share the Gospel. I'm grateful I can be a (female) teacher in a university, though I think I would refuse an invite to teach in Church on a Sunday.
This is what makes it difficult for me. I’m complementarian, but why should women be able to teach in universities but not churches? I’ve heard great teachings from women - why shouldn’t they be allowed to teach?
@@repentantrevenant9776 We shouldnt do everything we physically are capable of. Doesn't matter if women could theoretically do it, its not about their capability. Its about our roles given to us by God and women leading the church/family isn't what God has assigned them to
@repentantrevenant9776 In my understanding, teaching from the pulpit is how a pastor serves and exercises authority over the local Church. This is different from teachers or professors teaching in the university, where the audiences are not studying in the church context. The purpose of going to the university is different from the purpose of listening to the preached Word in the Church.
@@Presbapterian sometimes those categories seem to blend together. I’ve heard sermons from women pastors that are so full of information that they could be university lectures, but are also inspiring and convicting - some of the best sermons I’ve heard. Can a woman teach theology or philosophy in a university? What about history? If so, can she teach Biblical studies? Can she give lectures on those topics in a church building, on days other than Sundays? At what point is she “preaching the Word of God” versus giving an academic lecture?
Thank you - I'm also torn here because I've been blessed by God through Rick Warren's ministry and yet have been so uncomfortable with the rhetoric war happening between him and the SBC. I'm also super thankful of your last comment on not letting these disagreements become escalations as our culture loves to escalate things to the most extreme conclusion. Blessings and may God safeguard you and keep you!
This video handles the topic perfectly. I see too many videos and people being overly-critical of one view without acknowledging the faults of the other view, or acknowledging what the other view sometimes gets right. This video did a great job of that while perfectly explaining how to go about disagreements on the subject. Thank you for your ministry Gavin
Love the heart posture in this video Gavin, becoming one of my favorite TH-cam channels. Level headed and done in the right attitude and I would say very fair to both sides.
28:52 I love that you built a quick biblical basis for not adding laws to Scripture. I'm going to check if you have a video specifically on that topic. I also love how rich this video is! I appreciate that you have clear reasons for what you believe!
Gavin, I am so thankful for your synthesis of not only great reason but also admonition for greater kindness and intellectual honesty in the debate. I am sharing this link with many people. Well done.
A thoughtful response Gavin. Very nicely done. Just a request for a video idea one day, Christian mysticism particularly Protestant mysticism and mystics. I know you're very busy so it's just a suggestion/request. Thanks for all your hard work.
Great job Gavin - now dear churches can we get MORE deaconess??? We have these wonderful dear sisters who are doing the work - I’m all for more deaconess within the local body
I appreciate it your handling of this discussion. I am reminded of Tim Keller's more recent articles on the decline and renewal of the American church. Some of the ideas you expressed are similar to the conclusions he reaches in chapter 3.
I didn't know you were American Baptist USA! That's technically a Mainline denomination, right? I'm an even bigger fan knowing you are a fellow MAINLINE Protestant!
I always thought he was pretty academically astute and ecumenically open (aka liberal, by Baptist standards), but realizing that he's ABC, he seems very conservative to me now knowing that.
Given that the credobaptist position is just the most biblical and historically-true tradition from the earliest Christianity, it's just understandable that Baptists are generally cool like that 😎
Isn’t American Baptist the branch that ordains practicing homosexuals? That’s how it is in Washington state. Or are there two versions of American Baptist? The one I’m familiar with ordains women too.
Thank you for your gentle way of explaining bible truths. It is so important that you want always to continue loving our fellow Christians despite any differences in understanding.
I appreciated your breakdown of this very much! This is one of the kindest humblest discussions I have heard on the topic (and I have heard many). One point you made I hoped to expand on - you mentioned how egalitarians often portray complementarians as not believing that women can teach them anything and how that was unfair. It sounds like you have had a different experience, but I grew up in a community of complimentarians where many of them would said such things and worse. It is unfortunately a part of the complimentarian camp.
So sad you were exposed to those men who do not value godly women. I was hurt by many women growing up and recently have been deeply awed and appreciative of several godly women to whom I look to for Counsel. One in particular at 84 has an awesome sense of humor and even more impressive memory of Scripture. I choose her over most of the men in our small group.
I appreciate the tone and graciousness of your response! I know I'm late, but I have two genuine questions from the outside of the SBC. 1. Im still struggling to see why this issue would be a reason to remove a church from fellowship. I can see why a local church would divide, but it seems that it would be possible to let the local church decide on this matter and keep fellowship with other churches in the SBC. Especially if there are some churches that are Calvinistic and others that are not. That seems like a more significant theological divide. The practical issues of authority only truly affect the local church. 2. On the issue of authority, from the outside, it seems that the authority of the church rests in the church boards that make decisions and hire and fire people. What is the difference in practical authority between a church board and an elder? The board presumably can override an errant elder, etc. How can women serve with that kind of authority and not as an elder? I understand that an elder is a church officer, but so is a board member, and the board member seems to have more authority than an elder. Again, genuinely curious as Im not overly familiar with SBC church governance.
Mike Winger did an outstanding job with this topic. Really went into a deep dive on egalitarianism. His review of the scholarship surprised him (and me too!). It was surprisingly really poor. I’d recommend you check it out, Gavin (and others, too!).
I like Mike Winger, but a lot of scholars were not impressed with how he handled this issue. Even certain complimentarian leaning scholars gave him criticisms.
Stumbled on to your channel as I have been loosely following the recent events in the SBC. You have done one of the better jobs in explaining the complementarian position. As a Pentecostal I come from a more egalitarian back ground. I have never given the topic of the roll of women a lot of thought from the perspective I have heard many share recently....very interesting to hear the perspective. A few thoughts from the "other side" to add to the conversation. It is fascinating to hear Baptist and complementarians call those of a different viewpoint more liberal. In my experience we see Baptists in general as being much more liberal when you take the entirety of scripture into context. Not a bad thing...just a traditional Pentecostals experience and viewpoint living in a "Baptist dominated world". Can you, or someone clarify this, because it is still not clear to me. I understand the position of women not being able to pastor. It is actually a position that I hold with room for few exceptions - many of which you outlined in your video. But when it comes to teaching where is the complementarian line drawn at specifically/literally. Can a women teach in any capacity within the "4 walls" or confines of the church? What about to children or other women? I know personally that is restricted in many churches in the south. That seems extreme and not typical, but again it is my experience. Can a woman not speak in front of mixed company or behind the pulpit in any capacity/for any reason? I know it's an extreme example (at least from POV), but what if a woman is singing a solo (I assume that is allowed)...would they be permitted to speak/read scripture in the context of that song as precursor or successor to singing? In my world that is no different than preaching and perfectly normal/healthy. When scripture is so full of women that play vital rolls in ministry across the centuries...I wonder if the whole notion has gone to an unintended extreme? To say, for example, that Deborah or Miriam were not serving as a preacher/teacher/pastor or whatever word you want to use in the context of the work they did for the Lord seems to be out of context to those of us that would be labeled as egalitarian. I don't believe those women cared what you called them, but they were leading God's people just the same... I heard a clip from the SBC meeting that mentioned nearly 2000 churches with woman on staff as leaders (couldn't say to what capacity)....from my perspective again, it is normal for women to serve in all kinds of ministry rolls in a local church. If this is a real problem within the SBC of adherence to scripture...is their a shortage of men to do the work in the SBC...or does it mean that those churches need to be shut down if not brought into agreement with the Baptist faith and message (never heard that phrase until recently and I kind of like it). That's just an outsider looking in and wondering how it will be addressed in the context of the SBC. It is fascinating to me to see this much discussion over something that rarely if ever enters our minds. I am definitely praying for my brothers and sisters in the SBC as they navigate this. I pastor a small Pentecostal church surrounded by Baptists in the south. I have one dear brother whose local church is wrestling with how they proceed in light of what is going on. I pray my comments are not seen negatively. No ill will meant at all. It is a very big deal to the Lord because it is a big deal to a large number of his people. I agree that this is a 2nd or even possibly a 3rd level issue. I am glad it is not salvific. I know we certainly don't see our Baptist friends in sin over this, and I pray that we are not viewed that way either.
Thank you for your work on TH-cam, Gavin! Are you familiar with Rev. Calvin Robinson? It would be so cool to have him on the channel to discuss Protestantism and current affairs. I know you've got a lot on your plate currently though so no pressure!
Thank you so much for this, Gavin. This entire conversation can create a knot in my stomach, and your video helps loosen the tension a bit by emphasizing the importance of the conversation without unhelpful amplifying it. I often feel like my two options are either being a liberal or being a sexist (from how each side can present the other), and your insight helps give me confidence/freedom to research, pray, and hold a position with humility!
Hey Gavin, I was wondering as a Protestant who’s pretty young in the Faith I want to learn the History of our Branch of Christianity. I was wondering what are some good resources for this. Thank you.
@davidkomzyuk, I understand. Jordan B Cooper, as mentioned here, is a good resource. If you're not a Lutheran, you will only disagree with him on a few things here and there, when he speaks as a Lutheran. But his channel is definitely a good place to go if you want to learn about protestantism.
Question: I was raised Baptist (not SBC) and the word "sacrament" was never used. I was taught that baptism and the Lord's Supper were "ordinances" of the church. Why do you say "sacramental" and to what are you referring?
Rick Warren's arguments as you frame them seem to be: we need to be inclusive and not have divisions, truth is held by an elite class, and everything boils down to power dynamics. These are all key philosophical components of the World Economic Forum. Rick Warren has been actively involved with the WEF for years and has publicly said his goal is to use church networks to act as a conduit for the implementation of the WEF's agenda. I have no idea to what extent he shared those presuppositions before getting involved with the WEF or to what extent the WEF has influenced his thinking after joining. And it has no bearing on the Christian arguments for or against ministry roles for women. However, the SBC severing ties with his church could have the benefit of protecting them from that corrupting influence.
@travtotheworld If this is true, then it's very concerning. Do you have links and references regarding this matter? I would really love to know more about it. Thanks so much.
@@wonderingpilgrim I was very curious reading this and literally just googled Rick Warren + WEF. I haven't read anything I feel strong enough to share, but there are definitely some connections. Apparently he attended at Davos in 2008 and had some connection in 2022 as well.
@Downhaven Thank you for this! Perhaps the original commenter will have greater insight than we do, given the strong claims. I'm also now wondering if other pastors in our convention, or the SBC itself has ties to it. Not accusing, but I find that these instances are usually not isolated.
@@wonderingpilgrim I'd recommend a TH-cam video called "Rick Warren Answers the Davos Question." It's just an old clip of him speaking about it. You can find a full speech he gave at Davos as well.
Gavin thanks for this helpful video that came at a good time for me! I’m reading Tell Her Story by Nijay Gupta. I like to hear a variety of perspectives on this issue! I love the kindness with which you approach doctrinal differences!
First video I watched from you. I appreciate the way you communicate regarding this issue. There is a desire to love those who may not agree with you and a eagerness to discern God's word. I have been wrestling on this topic and asking God why it's not very clear such that everyone can be on the same page. But I know God is much wiser than me and has a reason for that. My job is to rely on the Spirit to direct me in understanding the word.
Thanks so much for your content and for providing clarity on such tricky subjects. I would love to see you do 'theological triage' on the peccability or impeccability of Christ! Praying for your ministry and your reach here on the Tube and in your local body!
This is the 3rd time this week I've seen someone mention this or seen a post or video about it. Is there a reason this subject is coming up? Has there been some controversy or discussion about it I've missed? It would be an interesting video idea certainly.
I'm not a Baptist but I care about what happens to my Baptist friends. As an outsider listening to Rick Warren and Al Mohler make their case, I notice that Dr. Mohler said the issue of female pastors had already come up and had been decided 30 years previously. I didn't hear Rick Warren explain what had happened in 30 years that SBC should change their minds. I also didn't hear Rick Warren explain why he chose to start appointing women pastors first and then demand that SBC be Ok with it, instead of campaigning first to have SBC change their rules and then appoint female pastors after SBC was Ok with it. It seems like Rick Warren was trying to force the issue by appointing female pastors who would be upset if SBC didn't change their rules. It doesn't seem like very orderly conduct and I don't see how SBC could allow it without causing other problems. If people inside SBC really want female pastors this confrontational approach probably isn't helping their cause. Unless they are Ok with destabilizing SBC.
Just because Al Mohler says something doesn't make it true. It was not settled 30 years ago or there would not be any churches with women having the title of pastor in the SBC. They would have been kicked out 30 years ago. Is Al confessing he and other powerful SBC men allowed churches to stay that were not in compliance with the Baptist Faith and Message for 30 years? I guess he must be. Al is using revisionist history to push "his" point through. He knew that just by saying it, listeners would not disagree. Powerful men get away with a lot.
@@evanspencer3632 Yeah I know. I deeply respect Gavin, and admire his charity. Hes definitely a more irenic Christian than me, something I aspire to be like. But I do think that there are certain theological positions which are extremely egregious and I believe Egalitarianism is one.
@@garyboulton2302 I’m a leaky Egalitarian. I read Yonggi Cho, worlds largest church with 750000 members. It’s clear the Holy Spirit used women. He made them wear head coverings to show respect for his authority.
Thanks Gavin, I attend a Presbyterian church and I’ve been kind of shocked at how they sneer at and misinterpret the spirit of complementarian attitudes. It’s almost like complementarian is a dirty word.
When a lot of one's experiences with complementarians comprises representatives like John "Go home!" MacArthur, Smirkin' Burke, Wayne "83 rules" Grudem, John "Take one for the team" Piper, etc., it's hard not to think of complementarianism as a dirty word.
This video is incredibly helpful - we are in dire need of reclaiming a level of charity with our brothers and sisters in the Church at large. You mentioned briefly the position of having women as pastors but not as elders (though I know that wasn’t the focus of the video). Do you have any reading suggestions for this position in particular? Our church has landed on this position but I’d love some historical/theological resources if there are any you’re familiar with or would recommend
Good thoughts! I’m in agreement with you here. How would you think through the related issue of women preaching on Sunday morning or teaching a mixed audience Sunday school class? I’ve been thinking through this for a few months now (and read a lot), and I’m not convinced by hard complementarians. (Though I consider myself a complementarian when it comes to the office of elder). -Would this go in the second or third bucket of triage? -Do you know any good resources for this question?
Fabulous video. I find it interesting to reflect on the Anglican communion and the "rank" of this issue. Across the Anglican communion as a whole we have managed to muddle along and make it work as a third-rank issue, even though I agree with you that it's second-rank. That's true even in the GAFCON fellowship (I'm from Sydney diocese, so very much a part of that). We have a strong enough common heritage and identity, and with effort can keep focused on our common call to Christ's mission, that we can relate and work together at a very high level, even though we know that this is a very significant difference (and even at that level, it has created significant conflict). For us, in our very loose "fellowship of dioceses and provinces" across the world, it kind of functions as third-rank. But ISTM that when it's treated as a third-rank issue at the level of individual dioceses (not to mention individual churches!), that's when it creates pain, tension and difficulties that substantively impacts ministry and mission. That is, it is more properly second-rank - and the closer your institutional and missional engagement together, the more it needs to be treated that way. Might be wrong, but that's my impression. (Or maybe the Anglican communion is just weird.) And change of tack: but I think this is very helpful when thinking about the issue that actually provoked the creation of GAFCON within Anglicanism: not the LGBTQI+ issue per se, but that of the status of the Bible as the Word of God and what that means for our alignment or non-alignment with modern Western culture (and yes, that deeper authority issue presented itself through the LGBTQI+ challenge). The worldwide Anglican communion managed to "ride out" the debates over women elders (presbyters/priests and bishops), precisely because it is a second-rank issue. But the Bible as the Word of God - and the way in which that is or isn't maintained in the way we respond to the question of human sexuality - is absolutely a first-rank issue. GAFCON chose the right issue over which to make its "theological heresy" stand. Thanks again - a clear, gracious and helpful contribution to the conversation.
Anglican here: I hate that people view these things as 'ranks'. It's not helpful. At all. In the main, it allows lots of individuals to play loose with words and doctrines and pushes the bounds. Anglicanism is a perfect example of this creeping rank-ism. It eats you alive. Women priests and bishops; gay priests and bishops; same sex married priests and bishops; and now the first transgender arch-deacon. See how it goes?
@@TruthUnites Thanks. I'll be sending this out to our elders for further discussion as this is something that we (and many) are currently working through. I appreciated the tone as much as the insights.
😊 That made me smile since I am currently thinking about joining a Baptist church near where I live. I only went to one Bible study class so far however. Since I studied theology myself, let's say it was an interesting experience. Not sure yet if interesting in a good sense or a bad one. I hope God will provide me with some clarity on what to do. There was definitely a lot of "ego" going on.
Thanks again for another phenomenal video, always appreciate your intelligent and informative yet gentle approach to all these topics. You're one of the best witnesses of Christ I've seen in these arenas, greatly looking forward to your future work. God Bless.
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund. Your opening remarks asked for more issues in need of theological triage. Have you done one on affirming vs non-affirming views on homosexual practice? That would be beneficial, brother.
Based on scripture and church history So basically women can be deacons, they can do administration Bible study etc, but men can only be pastors/elders and hold the highest seat. That sounds fine🎉
I’d say it’s more based on tradition and church history. Gavin’s example of the Leviticus Priesthood only works to an extent as it was only the descendants of Aaron who could be priests. Well that excludes literally most men in ancient Israel, we don’t have any equivalent to that in the New Testament. We see Jesus taking make and female disciples, we see women being the first witnesses, we see female apostles and deacons. The only time Paul seemingly forbid “women” from being elders or teachers was when they tried to usurp power, and did so while not even being grounded or disciples themselves, this suggest Paul is saying such women and in principle men are not to teach. His reference to Adam and Eve was not about the creation order or nature, b it about the fact that Eve sinned of ignorance and Adam with full knowledge. So I get complimentarianism but I no longer hold to it bc I believe it ti be grounded in inconsistent interpretation (if women are more prove to deception why should they teach anyone? Other women or children?) and a slight misunderstanding of Paul’s letters to Timothy.
@@justchilling704I would argue that this strengthens the argument. All men are not eligible for leadership. Only those who meet the qualifications, aspire to the office, and are affirmed by a congregation.
@@justchilling704 While women hold many high roles and ministries in the New Testament (what person other than Christ can be said to have more honor than the Virgin Mary?), church leadership roles (like the Twelve) are exclusively filled by men. Also, qualifications given for presbyteroi and episkopoi use exclusively masculine terms. The proper reasoning for complementarianism is not that women are somehow deceitful, but that our life in the Church should reflect the structure and order instituted by God at creation. The relationship between man and woman (especially husband and wife) is said to be reflective of the relationship between God and his people, hence the use of words like "obedience". I believe this is why St. Paul refers repeatedly to creation when teaching on the roles of men and women. I don't think this has to mean that women are somehow less valuable, just that God created man and woman with unique intentions for each.
I disagree with your position, but I love your process and your heart. Thank you for doing these videos. Thoughtfulness and goodwill are such a breath of fresh air in this day and age.
As a complementarian, I appreciate your take(s). Is there a category for something to be a 2nd rate issue in a local church and only 3rd rank in the convention?
Gavin, I would be very interested to hear you make the case for why The Trinity is a First Rank Doctrine? I take it you see the Apostle’s Creed as an incomplete or insufficient statement of Christian Faith? What exactly should a person understand that he is affirming, when he affirms “The Doctrine of the Trinity?” How much disagreement on interpretation of the Trinity is permissible? Thank you again for your careful and charitable handling of these subjects. Your work is a blessing to me.
How do single or widowed women in the church seek counsel or spiritual wisdom? Men generally feel comfortable speaking with their church elders (also men) or pastor (also men). As a woman, I have often had spiritual issues that I wanted help or guidance on but did not feel comfortable approaching a male to discuss. How can the church have a formalized plan to deal with this? Many if not most churches have no consistent plan for women to seek spiritual help or counsel.
Verses that come to mind: 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your WOMEN keep SILENT in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is SHAMEFUL for women to SPEAK IN CHURCH. I think the Bible is clear that women should not speak in church. I personally do not have a desire to speak in church or feel comfortable when a woman does. However, sometimes as a woman it does sadden me that we are viewed this way in the Bible. I immediately ignore the feeling & simply tell myself this is the way it is. I do have two questions: 1- If a woman loves the Lord & is godly, is she ever allowed to tell her husband anything about the word of God? Based on scripture, it looks like we are not. 1 Timothy 2:12-14 12 And I DO NOT permit a WOMAN to TEACH or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. I am a born again Christian. By God’s grace in the last 4 years there has been fruit in my life. I thank God. My husband is Orthodox & does not believe he is saved. Most of the Orthodox WE know live worldly lives. My husband is a pretty good man. However, am I allowed to share my views about the word of God? Can I share a verse with him and my beliefs? I know that not our words as wives but our actions will make a difference based on scripture. 1 Peter 3: 1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, This is why I am constantly asking you to make a video with an actual Greek person who is Eastern Orthodox. 😬 This way I can share the video with my husband. He has been wanting a pastor to meet with his priest but hasn’t been able to do that. I know the Bible also says women will Prophesy. Why is it that in the last days women will be able to prophesy? Where would prophesying occur? In the church or outside of the church? Would a woman only prophesy to women and not men? This is a bit confusing for me if I’m frank. Acts 2:17-18 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
I think it is good to have this discussion. Both men and women were created in God's image, both are given the Holy Spirit when they become Christians and both are gifted. There have been women prophets, judges, and co-laborers with Jesus by supporting His ministry. Paul worked closely with women and refers to different women as a deacon, apostle, contenders-in-the-faith, and one of the preachers was discipled by a husband-wife team. Understanding the culture of the day when Paul wrote (especially the Greek culture that was extremely restrictive for women) helps us understand men's and women's role in furthering the Gospel.
I also think the discussion is worthwhile. My background is in Lutheranism. I was raised in and came to my understanding of faith in an ELCA church. That tradition ordains women. I think the ELCA has gone astray since their 2009 statement on human sexuality, but they ordained women pastors long before that. Not having dug into the issue wholehog myself, I accepted the teaching as something more learned minds than mine had already grappled with. That said, I posit two potentially irreconcilable observations from my POV. 1. Anti-women being ordained. A face value reading of Paul's letters, given our present cultural axioms, indicates women should not be pastors. Another commenter referred to the Apostle saying that women should be silent in church and not hold authority over men. I can look at the Greek translations and study the culture of the time as we see it today, and there is some wiggle room here depending on the verse. Then again, should we be employing "wiggle room" to understand the Word of God? 2. Pro women being ordained. My overall experience with women ministers has not left me especially impressed - except for two, very strong exceptions. My former Lutheran pastor whom I will refer to here as Rachel, and a Nazarene pastor whose home church I sometimes attend, whom I will call Lacy. Rachel's sermons kicked it out of the park. They were profound, insightful, and scripturally rooted. Lacy is getting her doctorate in Old Testament Bible history. Everything she brings to the table from a teaching perspective is stellar. If God has a standing prohibition on the ordination of women, it would not be arbitrary. Everything He has wrought that seems arbitrary is quite purposeful and for both our aedification and His glory. One need only inspect with a diligent and open mind to see it. If women being ordained to the clergy is a deleterious phenomenon to the faith, why are such strong examples provided to counter that assertion? Between observations 1 and 2, I would be kind of stuck. My mind would say that 1 is correct based on Sola Scriptura, but my gut says 2 is the right way. Two things tilt me in favor of 2: Luther's writing on the evidence of the Spirit at work in the lives of those who were baptized as infants rather than as adults as evidence for the efficacy and validity of infant Baptism, and a cultural viewpoint I absorbed from the book "Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes", by E Randolph Richards and Brandon J O'Brien. In their mission work in the Philippines, the authors experienced the Gospel from a very non-Western perspective. One thing in that culture that stuck out to me: the rules don't define the relationship - the relationship defines the rules. Thus, it is possible for our roles in service to God to change based on the circumstances of our generation and locale.
@YallCrazy You too should be quiet in the church. Or can you just blurt out at any point of the worship service? Perhaps there's more nuance to what Paul is saying here. Women can prophesy and are encouraged to prophecy by Paul. Prophecy is God speaking through man or women to man. So God can talk to men through women, but man says woman can't speak to men and should be quiet? Again, either God and Paul are in contradiction, or there's more we need to understand.
No discussion is necessary. The ppl who want a discussion seems to operate with an intention of setting ppl up to compromise on what the Bible clearly says. God says women are NOT to have ANY ecclesiastical authority. That is neither unclear or ambiguous. How is it that ppl call themselves a Christian and not learn anything from Satan deceiving Eve into challenging what was a very plain command from God?
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 "No discussion is necessary." Discussion is necessary because there is disagreement, whichever side is taken. Your own comment here is evidence of this. "God says women are NOT to have ANY ecclesiastical authority. That is neither unclear or ambiguous." It is unclear. Merely repeating the talking point does not make it otherwise. Scripture does not exist in a vacuum. Each text has an original audience and context in which it was addressed. While the Spirit has certainly preserved these books in a manner that will benefit us even millennia later, they must still be understood as the intended recipients would have understood them to avoid distortions. One such distortion may be present here. The passages often used to proscribe female clergy are typically Titus 2:3-5, 1 Timothy 2:11-15, and Ephesians 5:21-33, among others. They emphasize the importance of subservience of the wife to the husband, modeling virtue and Christ's relationship to us as the church. The Titus passage even specifies this is "so that the word of God may not be discredited." Roman law, that which would have governed those addressed by the Apostles, was very strict when it comes to women's roles in society and especially the family. The oldest male in each household was designated the pater familias as a sort of miniature emperor of the family. To defy, even by appearance, the pater familias would be akin to rebellion against the emperor. The man held all the authority. Consider this by way of juxtaposition: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28 When Paul urges slaves to be obedient to their masters, we can regard this not as divine endorsement of the practice of slavery, but practical advice for believers to live in a way that furthers the Gospel. Their bondage became a vocation, a vector by which their masters could witness the Gospel. Similarly, although "nor is there male and female", the law of the land specified that women should be deferent. We can contend, despite their rights in Christ, Paul is exhorting the women to live according to Roman law so that, by their good conduct, they might spread the Gospel. It's not an ironclad case. The 1 Timothy verses indicate something more could be at work in the prohibition than cultural circumstance. But there is enough of a case that is, certainly, worth discussion.
Thanks Pastor Ortlund. I definitely want to hear more from you on this. I'm going to go looking for anything you've put out already. This is a necessary meditation on this topic, the only thing it lacks is more of it!
I am from an ABC fraternal body in the Philippines. As a young person I was egalitarian in principle. But I did not seek ordination. I did not feel right seeking it. I felt called to be an enabler not a leader in the home, church and society. I am at present a teacher with advanced degree in Biblical Studies. The Conventiion of Philippine Baptist Churches did not join UNited Church of Christ in the Philippines. The reality on the ground is, in principle we are egalitarian, but in reality, women do not seek higher church offices, hence complementarian. Thank you Pastor Gavin.
If you’re taking suggestions for theological triage, I think a video discussing the three main views of hell (the traditional view, annihilationism, and universalism) along those lines would be super helpful.
Great suggestion
@@TruthUnitesI second that proposal!
Yes please do this!
If you should do this, I hope you will consider the doctrine of Conditional Immortality. I believe this view to be the most biblical of all the perspectives out there. For a brief introduction, please see Edward Fudge's lecture given by the Lenier Theological Library.
th-cam.com/video/oHUPpmbTOV4/w-d-xo.html
Can you please address this?!!!
We must be careful to not adopt the spirit of the age and act like the world- angry, contentious, arrogant and uncharitable. Your approach is exactly what we need more of. Thank you!
But are we adopting the spirit of the more modern age or the spirit of the more historic age? It’s a really complicated issue that we need to use a pastoral heart when discussing
Saying "No" to half the world's population simply because of their sex is made no more charitable when done with a smile on your face.
@@Bruised-Reed That's where Gavin's argument goes off the rails. *All* the evidence from the last 120 years proves that the modern approach toward recognizing women as the equal of men in all aspects of governance was the right thing to do.
My pastor and I disagree on this subject. He sites that there is only one scripture in Tim. But what I argue that he is allowing woman to preach is in breach creation and replaced is with culture. Thus bringing our church into disrepute
except that that is NOT the way Jesus, Paul, and Peter addressed false teachers. See Matthew 23, Galatians 1, and 2 Peter 2. When people are being deliberately dense, false and dishonest as the liberals are, a much sterner tone is required.
Thanks!
Scripture is clear on this in my opinion. I’m a woman and not offended by that, I believe and accept what scripture teaches. Rick Warren should just accept the SBC decision since that’s their belief. He’s the one who changed his belief about this, so it’s right for his church to not be part of SBC. His church seems a lot like a non-denominational church anyway. This is dangerous, as he is a very popular pastor, if he will start teaching wrong things, his congregation and others who follow him might believe him.
Right, I agree
Thank you.
I am a Catholic and very much agree that St. Paul should be taken at his word and the infallible Word of God does not mince words on this point.
To say, "Scripture is clear" regarding this issue is not accurate at all. This is precisely why it is still a debate within the Church. It may be your understanding, but it is not for others.
Do you have a head covering?
A video on the biblical basis for complimentarianism would be fantastic.
Mike Winger has done a big series on this going through all the key texts, real good!
I'd like Mike Winger to do one. Alas.
th-cam.com/video/UODX1Py-OD4/w-d-xo.html
This is a conversation between a Catholic and protestant on the topic
@@FalconOfStorms Mike Winger did a big series on it. "Women in ministry"
Gavin, I am so grateful for you being willing to address this topic. Truly grateful. I grew up at Saddleback and then spent most of my 20s with deep ecclesial anxiety. Your videos are a significant contribution to my healing and understanding of how to move forward. Thank you so very much ❤
So glad to hear my videos have been helpful to you! Thanks for letting me know.
There is a biological weapon confirmed to be affecting primarily men. Maybe get your mind off your vagina because you are going to hell. Start laughing and feel your hell coming.
I am in process of leaving a church because it teaches egalitarianism and highlights that ppl only have gift of HSIf they speak in tongues. Also music is mostly Hillsong, Bethel, Elevation and seems vacuous to me. Attended a Baptist church last Sunday with contemporary music biblically based and hymns. I could actually hear the woman next to me sing!
This was so good loved it, thank you so much for addressing this topic.
“As the body of Christ we have to model a better way! We’ve got to assume the best in each other. We’ve got to treat people like human beings, not as caricatures; and that means listening carefully and not assuming the worst.”
-Gavin Ortlund
““…You shall not add to it or take from it.”
Deuteronomy 12:32 ESV
“Throughout the Old Testament law there is this principle of “neither add nor subtract.” Adding on to the rules of scriptures is wrong just like subtracting from them is wrong. So we need to be sensitive to both.”
-Gavin Ortlund
Is it fair to say that Warren's emotional appeal made him a caricature?
It took me a couple of days to work up the courage to watch this video because I've read so many other articles that are very dismissive of women and the way the Spirit has gifted us, and I was scared yours would be the same despite all of the humility you have exhibited in other discussions (sorry!). I read your book Finding the Right Hills to Die On because I spent the better part of 18 months studying the issue of women in ministry and ended up changing my mind (moving from a complementarian to an egalitarian position - for lack of better terms) and I didn't know what to do. I appreciated the wisdom that your book provided and find that all of the practical considerations you gave in this video are exactly the issues that I have faced in deciding to stay where I am for now despite my new position. Thank you for speaking up on this issue despite the risk. Your humility is an important addition to the conversation.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I’m so glad the video wasn’t grating to listen to amidst differences.
It always goes back to Deborah.
I recommend watching Mike Wingers video series on women in ministry..... its very biblical!
I am going back and watching old videos and found this gem! I am currently studying this subject for myself and I found all your references and thoughts very helpful, as usual!
Well said Gavin! Thank you for promoting reason in the midst of such heated discussions!
How do you not have a checkmark yet??
Thank you, Gavin. I wish others where as calm and irenic as you are about this (I wish that for myself). My church went through this controversy just a few years ago, and it was a complete disaster, and we are still feeling the effects of it. I do not wish this controversy on any local church.
Gavin, your work on this does my heart good. Thank you for your humble, scholarly approach! You are a gift to our time! May the Lord continue to bless you!
What an approach! Humble, loving, level-headed, and gentle. Way to set the tone in how we should approach this topic in our brothers and sisters in Christ. God bless you.😄
Very well said Gavin, this is an issue that comes up from time to time. I appreciate the time you took to work through this.
Speak the truth in love ❤️ This video is so helpful for understanding how we're supposed to do triage better.
Thank you, Gavin. I am grateful for your voice in this. Reasoned, pleading for grace for one another, and I share your burden for the course our culture is headed and the church mimicking this. I am also SBC currently and struggled to see this as a 2nd Rank (leaned more 3rd rank) but you are making me think more about my position as a 3rd rank. Thanks, brother.
I absolutely love your heart on this! 💛💯
I share your burden of concern about how angry and frustrated we've become, about how divided and divisive the church is becoming, and how poorly we treat each other. ⚠️
In fact, it's one of the main motivators for me starting my own channel and hopefully joining the few content creators out there trying to bring peace and reconciliation in the Bride of Christ. 👑
Keep up the great work, Gavin. Don't grow weary of doing good. Your voice is needed. Blessings! 😎👍
My experience has been that when we prioritise unity, it doesn't work. It soon falters on our differences. However, when we prioritise the Kingdom of God and Jesus Himself, unity follows by itself, without even addressing the 2nd and 3rd tier issues. We learn to appreciate our differences, but to focus on the One whom we follow and on the job He gave us on earth - He is our unity when his will (for people to meet Jesus) becomes our greatest desire.
This was excellent - profoundly compassionate and gracious in tone, a thorough, comprehensive response, and lucid (in the most complimentary sense of the word). Will be sharing this!
Well said. Thank you
I absolutely love your treatment of this conversation. While we may not fully agree, I greatly appreciate you’re clarity and conviction. Please keep doing great work and research.
Thank you so much. You are the most charitable and balanced complementarian pastor / theologian I've ever heard so far. May the Lord continue to bless and expand your ministry for His glory.🙏❤
You nailed it. Well done. Prayerful, articulate, knowledgeable, intentional. Thankyouthankyou. (MTS in Church History from Gordon-Conwell here--I can hear all your research. Keep it comin'. Keep being gutsy and winsome.)
Thank you Gavin for this well reasoned and thoughtful video. We need your wisdom and your heart on topics like these. I especially appreciate how you described not all egalitarians being on the road to liberalism just as not all complementarians are abusive and power hungry. Keep up the good work! God bless you!
The grace & truth by which you approached this topic really encouraged me.
I share similar views to you and your dialogue sharpened my convictions
Great outlook and very good!! I’m an SBC pastor for 38 years and you are spot on
Thanks for this. It’s helpful to witness you apply your theological triage concepts to current situations. May God bless you for your irenic approach in the midst of all the self absorbed caterwauling on social media today.
🙏 Pastor Gavin, theological Triage 👍 and adressing contemporary issues biblically, factually and with a spirit of love and compassion 🙏🙏🙏
I am soft complementarian. I would not want a woman to be a pastor, or teacher on a Sunday morning. The latter happens in my church, not the former. However it is noticeable that our women are better teachers and would arguably also be better at eldership than our men.
But I have not found any of the arguments pro women teaching or elders convincing. ( Prophets yes. Teaching children fine.) I would rather go with what seems right by God. But I also would not leave my functioning fellowship where we believe in salvation by grace, look out for the Body, and share the Gospel.
I'm grateful I can be a (female) teacher in a university, though I think I would refuse an invite to teach in Church on a Sunday.
This is what makes it difficult for me. I’m complementarian, but why should women be able to teach in universities but not churches? I’ve heard great teachings from women - why shouldn’t they be allowed to teach?
@repentantrevenant9776 I don't know!! I find it hard too. I find teaching on homosexuality even harder.
@@repentantrevenant9776 We shouldnt do everything we physically are capable of. Doesn't matter if women could theoretically do it, its not about their capability. Its about our roles given to us by God and women leading the church/family isn't what God has assigned them to
@repentantrevenant9776 In my understanding, teaching from the pulpit is how a pastor serves and exercises authority over the local Church. This is different from teachers or professors teaching in the university, where the audiences are not studying in the church context. The purpose of going to the university is different from the purpose of listening to the preached Word in the Church.
@@Presbapterian sometimes those categories seem to blend together. I’ve heard sermons from women pastors that are so full of information that they could be university lectures, but are also inspiring and convicting - some of the best sermons I’ve heard.
Can a woman teach theology or philosophy in a university? What about history? If so, can she teach Biblical studies? Can she give lectures on those topics in a church building, on days other than Sundays? At what point is she “preaching the Word of God” versus giving an academic lecture?
You are wonderful. I am Catholic leaning, but I have the highest regard for you.
Thank you - I'm also torn here because I've been blessed by God through Rick Warren's ministry and yet have been so uncomfortable with the rhetoric war happening between him and the SBC. I'm also super thankful of your last comment on not letting these disagreements become escalations as our culture loves to escalate things to the most extreme conclusion. Blessings and may God safeguard you and keep you!
I appreciate your gracious discussion of these difficult issues
This video handles the topic perfectly. I see too many videos and people being overly-critical of one view without acknowledging the faults of the other view, or acknowledging what the other view sometimes gets right. This video did a great job of that while perfectly explaining how to go about disagreements on the subject. Thank you for your ministry Gavin
thanks a lot jared!
Love the heart posture in this video Gavin, becoming one of my favorite TH-cam channels. Level headed and done in the right attitude and I would say very fair to both sides.
28:52 I love that you built a quick biblical basis for not adding laws to Scripture. I'm going to check if you have a video specifically on that topic. I also love how rich this video is! I appreciate that you have clear reasons for what you believe!
Gavin, I am so thankful for your synthesis of not only great reason but also admonition for greater kindness and intellectual honesty in the debate. I am sharing this link with many people. Well done.
Thank you Gavin for another interesting and informative post!
Thank you! Appreciate your grace-filled approach to this conversation.
A thoughtful response Gavin. Very nicely done.
Just a request for a video idea one day, Christian mysticism particularly Protestant mysticism and mystics. I know you're very busy so it's just a suggestion/request. Thanks for all your hard work.
Beautifully handled and said Gavin!
Great job Gavin - now dear churches can we get MORE deaconess??? We have these wonderful dear sisters who are doing the work - I’m all for more deaconess within the local body
Yes. They became nuns before the reformation.
I appreciate it your handling of this discussion. I am reminded of Tim Keller's more recent articles on the decline and renewal of the American church. Some of the ideas you expressed are similar to the conclusions he reaches in chapter 3.
I didn't know you were American Baptist USA! That's technically a Mainline denomination, right? I'm an even bigger fan knowing you are a fellow MAINLINE Protestant!
What did you think he was
@@goyonman9655 I just knew he was Baptist
I always thought he was pretty academically astute and ecumenically open (aka liberal, by Baptist standards), but realizing that he's ABC, he seems very conservative to me now knowing that.
Given that the credobaptist position is just the most biblical and historically-true tradition from the earliest Christianity, it's just understandable that Baptists are generally cool like that 😎
Isn’t American Baptist the branch that ordains practicing homosexuals? That’s how it is in Washington state. Or are there two versions of American Baptist? The one I’m familiar with ordains women too.
Thank you for your gentle way of explaining bible truths. It is so important that you want always to continue loving our fellow Christians despite any differences in understanding.
I appreciated your breakdown of this very much! This is one of the kindest humblest discussions I have heard on the topic (and I have heard many). One point you made I hoped to expand on - you mentioned how egalitarians often portray complementarians as not believing that women can teach them anything and how that was unfair. It sounds like you have had a different experience, but I grew up in a community of complimentarians where many of them would said such things and worse. It is unfortunately a part of the complimentarian camp.
So sad you were exposed to those men who do not value godly women. I was hurt by many women growing up and recently have been deeply awed and appreciative of several godly women to whom I look to for
Counsel. One in particular at 84 has an awesome sense of humor and even more impressive memory of Scripture. I choose her over most of the men in our small group.
I appreciate the tone and graciousness of your response! I know I'm late, but I have two genuine questions from the outside of the SBC.
1. Im still struggling to see why this issue would be a reason to remove a church from fellowship. I can see why a local church would divide, but it seems that it would be possible to let the local church decide on this matter and keep fellowship with other churches in the SBC. Especially if there are some churches that are Calvinistic and others that are not. That seems like a more significant theological divide. The practical issues of authority only truly affect the local church.
2. On the issue of authority, from the outside, it seems that the authority of the church rests in the church boards that make decisions and hire and fire people. What is the difference in practical authority between a church board and an elder? The board presumably can override an errant elder, etc. How can women serve with that kind of authority and not as an elder? I understand that an elder is a church officer, but so is a board member, and the board member seems to have more authority than an elder.
Again, genuinely curious as Im not overly familiar with SBC church governance.
Mike Winger did an outstanding job with this topic. Really went into a deep dive on egalitarianism. His review of the scholarship surprised him (and me too!). It was surprisingly really poor. I’d recommend you check it out, Gavin (and others, too!).
I like Mike Winger, but a lot of scholars were not impressed with how he handled this issue. Even certain complimentarian leaning scholars gave him criticisms.
@@eddiep6369 do you have references to complimentarian scholars criticizing him, I’d like to check that out
@Eddie P Well, of course the egalitarian scholars took issue with it. He ripped it apart. I can't imagine they'd have been pleased.
I watched Mike Winger. I appreciate that he relied on scripture over historical doctrines and traditions.
@@eddiep6369 Echo the above. Any sources?
This was a great video and a fantastic treatment of the subject!! Thanks Brother
Good job, thank you for reminding me to be kind and gentle ❤
Thankful for this video Gavin, very helpful. God bless you and your contribution to the church.
Stumbled on to your channel as I have been loosely following the recent events in the SBC. You have done one of the better jobs in explaining the complementarian position. As a Pentecostal I come from a more egalitarian back ground. I have never given the topic of the roll of women a lot of thought from the perspective I have heard many share recently....very interesting to hear the perspective. A few thoughts from the "other side" to add to the conversation.
It is fascinating to hear Baptist and complementarians call those of a different viewpoint more liberal. In my experience we see Baptists in general as being much more liberal when you take the entirety of scripture into context. Not a bad thing...just a traditional Pentecostals experience and viewpoint living in a "Baptist dominated world".
Can you, or someone clarify this, because it is still not clear to me. I understand the position of women not being able to pastor. It is actually a position that I hold with room for few exceptions - many of which you outlined in your video. But when it comes to teaching where is the complementarian line drawn at specifically/literally. Can a women teach in any capacity within the "4 walls" or confines of the church? What about to children or other women? I know personally that is restricted in many churches in the south. That seems extreme and not typical, but again it is my experience. Can a woman not speak in front of mixed company or behind the pulpit in any capacity/for any reason? I know it's an extreme example (at least from POV), but what if a woman is singing a solo (I assume that is allowed)...would they be permitted to speak/read scripture in the context of that song as precursor or successor to singing? In my world that is no different than preaching and perfectly normal/healthy.
When scripture is so full of women that play vital rolls in ministry across the centuries...I wonder if the whole notion has gone to an unintended extreme? To say, for example, that Deborah or Miriam were not serving as a preacher/teacher/pastor or whatever word you want to use in the context of the work they did for the Lord seems to be out of context to those of us that would be labeled as egalitarian. I don't believe those women cared what you called them, but they were leading God's people just the same...
I heard a clip from the SBC meeting that mentioned nearly 2000 churches with woman on staff as leaders (couldn't say to what capacity)....from my perspective again, it is normal for women to serve in all kinds of ministry rolls in a local church. If this is a real problem within the SBC of adherence to scripture...is their a shortage of men to do the work in the SBC...or does it mean that those churches need to be shut down if not brought into agreement with the Baptist faith and message (never heard that phrase until recently and I kind of like it). That's just an outsider looking in and wondering how it will be addressed in the context of the SBC. It is fascinating to me to see this much discussion over something that rarely if ever enters our minds.
I am definitely praying for my brothers and sisters in the SBC as they navigate this. I pastor a small Pentecostal church surrounded by Baptists in the south. I have one dear brother whose local church is wrestling with how they proceed in light of what is going on.
I pray my comments are not seen negatively. No ill will meant at all. It is a very big deal to the Lord because it is a big deal to a large number of his people. I agree that this is a 2nd or even possibly a 3rd level issue. I am glad it is not salvific. I know we certainly don't see our Baptist friends in sin over this, and I pray that we are not viewed that way either.
Your Channel was recommended by Becket Cook. So glad it was!
Immediately subscribe & enjoying your deep dive explorations. Well done!
Thanks and welcome!
Theological triage: love it! This is a healthy and helpful concept
Wow! I love you, Gavin! You're an example to me. Thank you for this video, brother.
Thank you for your work on TH-cam, Gavin! Are you familiar with Rev. Calvin Robinson? It would be so cool to have him on the channel to discuss Protestantism and current affairs. I know you've got a lot on your plate currently though so no pressure!
Thank you, brother
Kind regards Kim
So grateful for the way you addressed this topic. Thank you, brother!
This video is a welcomed addition to the conversation about bringing in priestesses. It's wonderful to see Bible believing Christians taking a stand.
Thank you so much for this, Gavin. This entire conversation can create a knot in my stomach, and your video helps loosen the tension a bit by emphasizing the importance of the conversation without unhelpful amplifying it. I often feel like my two options are either being a liberal or being a sexist (from how each side can present the other), and your insight helps give me confidence/freedom to research, pray, and hold a position with humility!
Truly my fav yt channel
Hey Gavin, I was wondering as a Protestant who’s pretty young in the Faith I want to learn the History of our Branch of Christianity. I was wondering what are some good resources for this. Thank you.
Chech out jordan b cooper
I think you've already come to the right place. 🙂
@@morghe321 Definitely. I just wanted maybe like a lecture series from 33AD to now. Or a book but this channel is definitely a quality resource.
@@jordand5732 Will do.
@davidkomzyuk, I understand. Jordan B Cooper, as mentioned here, is a good resource. If you're not a Lutheran, you will only disagree with him on a few things here and there, when he speaks as a Lutheran. But his channel is definitely a good place to go if you want to learn about protestantism.
Question: I was raised Baptist (not SBC) and the word "sacrament" was never used. I was taught that baptism and the Lord's Supper were "ordinances" of the church. Why do you say "sacramental" and to what are you referring?
Rick Warren's arguments as you frame them seem to be: we need to be inclusive and not have divisions, truth is held by an elite class, and everything boils down to power dynamics. These are all key philosophical components of the World Economic Forum. Rick Warren has been actively involved with the WEF for years and has publicly said his goal is to use church networks to act as a conduit for the implementation of the WEF's agenda.
I have no idea to what extent he shared those presuppositions before getting involved with the WEF or to what extent the WEF has influenced his thinking after joining. And it has no bearing on the Christian arguments for or against ministry roles for women. However, the SBC severing ties with his church could have the benefit of protecting them from that corrupting influence.
@travtotheworld
If this is true, then it's very concerning.
Do you have links and references regarding this matter? I would really love to know more about it. Thanks so much.
This I did not know. Yeah anyone with connections to the WEF I do not trust.
@@wonderingpilgrim I was very curious reading this and literally just googled Rick Warren + WEF.
I haven't read anything I feel strong enough to share, but there are definitely some connections. Apparently he attended at Davos in 2008 and had some connection in 2022 as well.
@Downhaven
Thank you for this! Perhaps the original commenter will have greater insight than we do, given the strong claims.
I'm also now wondering if other pastors in our convention, or the SBC itself has ties to it. Not accusing, but I find that these instances are usually not isolated.
@@wonderingpilgrim I'd recommend a TH-cam video called "Rick Warren Answers the Davos Question." It's just an old clip of him speaking about it. You can find a full speech he gave at Davos as well.
Your videos are fantastic, and you’ve provided a great service, thank you. God bless.
I found this video helpful and edifying. Thanks.
Bless you brother.
Gavin thanks for this helpful video that came at a good time for me! I’m reading Tell Her Story by Nijay Gupta. I like to hear a variety of perspectives on this issue! I love the kindness with which you approach doctrinal differences!
Such a good book! That and "Vindicating the Vixens" have helped me see women in the Bible in a completely different light.
First video I watched from you. I appreciate the way you communicate regarding this issue. There is a desire to love those who may not agree with you and a eagerness to discern God's word.
I have been wrestling on this topic and asking God why it's not very clear such that everyone can be on the same page. But I know God is much wiser than me and has a reason for that. My job is to rely on the Spirit to direct me in understanding the word.
Thanks so much for your content and for providing clarity on such tricky subjects. I would love to see you do 'theological triage' on the peccability or impeccability of Christ! Praying for your ministry and your reach here on the Tube and in your local body!
This is the 3rd time this week I've seen someone mention this or seen a post or video about it. Is there a reason this subject is coming up? Has there been some controversy or discussion about it I've missed?
It would be an interesting video idea certainly.
Great service to the body to encourage biblical Higher thought thanks
Great job.
A really thorough and gracious treatment of a controversial topic. Thanks!
I'm not a Baptist but I care about what happens to my Baptist friends. As an outsider listening to Rick Warren and Al Mohler make their case, I notice that Dr. Mohler said the issue of female pastors had already come up and had been decided 30 years previously. I didn't hear Rick Warren explain what had happened in 30 years that SBC should change their minds. I also didn't hear Rick Warren explain why he chose to start appointing women pastors first and then demand that SBC be Ok with it, instead of campaigning first to have SBC change their rules and then appoint female pastors after SBC was Ok with it. It seems like Rick Warren was trying to force the issue by appointing female pastors who would be upset if SBC didn't change their rules. It doesn't seem like very orderly conduct and I don't see how SBC could allow it without causing other problems. If people inside SBC really want female pastors this confrontational approach probably isn't helping their cause. Unless they are Ok with destabilizing SBC.
Just because Al Mohler says something doesn't make it true. It was not settled 30 years ago or there would not be any churches with women having the title of pastor in the SBC. They would have been kicked out 30 years ago. Is Al confessing he and other powerful SBC men allowed churches to stay that were not in compliance with the Baptist Faith and Message for 30 years? I guess he must be. Al is using revisionist history to push "his" point through. He knew that just by saying it, listeners would not disagree. Powerful men get away with a lot.
I would be curious about on your Triage of Sabbath-keeping, specifically Seventh-day Sabbath vs Sunday worship. Love the concept!!
I'm so glad that this has happened. I have become all the more convinced of the damaging nature of the false teaching which is Egalitarianism.
False teaching? No wonder Christianity is lost.
@@andyzar1177 The world is lost. And the world is egalitarian
This seems to me to be the opposite of Gavin's intention for this video
@@evanspencer3632 Yeah I know. I deeply respect Gavin, and admire his charity. Hes definitely a more irenic Christian than me, something I aspire to be like. But I do think that there are certain theological positions which are extremely egregious and I believe Egalitarianism is one.
@@garyboulton2302 I’m a leaky Egalitarian. I read Yonggi Cho, worlds largest church with 750000 members. It’s clear the Holy Spirit used women. He made them wear head coverings to show respect for his authority.
This was quiet helpful. We definitely are talking past each other a lot.
Thanks Gavin, I attend a Presbyterian church and I’ve been kind of shocked at how they sneer at and misinterpret the spirit of complementarian attitudes. It’s almost like complementarian is a dirty word.
When a lot of one's experiences with complementarians comprises representatives like John "Go home!" MacArthur, Smirkin' Burke, Wayne "83 rules" Grudem, John "Take one for the team" Piper, etc., it's hard not to think of complementarianism as a dirty word.
This video is incredibly helpful - we are in dire need of reclaiming a level of charity with our brothers and sisters in the Church at large.
You mentioned briefly the position of having women as pastors but not as elders (though I know that wasn’t the focus of the video). Do you have any reading suggestions for this position in particular? Our church has landed on this position but I’d love some historical/theological resources if there are any you’re familiar with or would recommend
Thanks Gavin, helpful stuff.
Good thoughts! I’m in agreement with you here.
How would you think through the related issue of women preaching on Sunday morning or teaching a mixed audience Sunday school class?
I’ve been thinking through this for a few months now (and read a lot), and I’m not convinced by hard complementarians. (Though I consider myself a complementarian when it comes to the office of elder).
-Would this go in the second or third bucket of triage?
-Do you know any good resources for this question?
Fabulous video. I find it interesting to reflect on the Anglican communion and the "rank" of this issue. Across the Anglican communion as a whole we have managed to muddle along and make it work as a third-rank issue, even though I agree with you that it's second-rank. That's true even in the GAFCON fellowship (I'm from Sydney diocese, so very much a part of that). We have a strong enough common heritage and identity, and with effort can keep focused on our common call to Christ's mission, that we can relate and work together at a very high level, even though we know that this is a very significant difference (and even at that level, it has created significant conflict). For us, in our very loose "fellowship of dioceses and provinces" across the world, it kind of functions as third-rank.
But ISTM that when it's treated as a third-rank issue at the level of individual dioceses (not to mention individual churches!), that's when it creates pain, tension and difficulties that substantively impacts ministry and mission. That is, it is more properly second-rank - and the closer your institutional and missional engagement together, the more it needs to be treated that way. Might be wrong, but that's my impression. (Or maybe the Anglican communion is just weird.)
And change of tack: but I think this is very helpful when thinking about the issue that actually provoked the creation of GAFCON within Anglicanism: not the LGBTQI+ issue per se, but that of the status of the Bible as the Word of God and what that means for our alignment or non-alignment with modern Western culture (and yes, that deeper authority issue presented itself through the LGBTQI+ challenge). The worldwide Anglican communion managed to "ride out" the debates over women elders (presbyters/priests and bishops), precisely because it is a second-rank issue. But the Bible as the Word of God - and the way in which that is or isn't maintained in the way we respond to the question of human sexuality - is absolutely a first-rank issue. GAFCON chose the right issue over which to make its "theological heresy" stand.
Thanks again - a clear, gracious and helpful contribution to the conversation.
Anglican here: I hate that people view these things as 'ranks'. It's not helpful. At all. In the main, it allows lots of individuals to play loose with words and doctrines and pushes the bounds. Anglicanism is a perfect example of this creeping rank-ism. It eats you alive. Women priests and bishops; gay priests and bishops; same sex married priests and bishops; and now the first transgender arch-deacon. See how it goes?
Did you link the Sam Storms article? I’d love to read that
yes, its there
@@TruthUnites Thanks. I'll be sending this out to our elders for further discussion as this is something that we (and many) are currently working through. I appreciated the tone as much as the insights.
@@robcripps5312 I suggest my short essay on Deborah.
A Judge was a pastor.
I didn't realize that it's so complicated to be a baptist.
😊 That made me smile since I am currently thinking about joining a Baptist church near where I live.
I only went to one Bible study class so far however. Since I studied theology myself, let's say it was an interesting experience. Not sure yet if interesting in a good sense or a bad one. I hope God will provide me with some clarity on what to do.
There was definitely a lot of "ego" going on.
Excellent.
Thanks again for another phenomenal video, always appreciate your intelligent and informative yet gentle approach to all these topics. You're one of the best witnesses of Christ I've seen in these arenas, greatly looking forward to your future work. God Bless.
Thank you!
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund. Your opening remarks asked for more issues in need of theological triage. Have you done one on affirming vs non-affirming views on homosexual practice? That would be beneficial, brother.
Thanks for this!
Would you see baptism as a rank two topic, worth separating over?
Based on scripture and church history So basically women can be deacons, they can do administration Bible study etc, but men can only be pastors/elders and hold the highest seat. That sounds fine🎉
I’d say it’s more based on tradition and church history. Gavin’s example of the Leviticus Priesthood only works to an extent as it was only the descendants of Aaron who could be priests. Well that excludes literally most men in ancient Israel, we don’t have any equivalent to that in the New Testament.
We see Jesus taking make and female disciples, we see women being the first witnesses, we see female apostles and deacons. The only time Paul seemingly forbid “women” from being elders or teachers was when they tried to usurp power, and did so while not even being grounded or disciples themselves, this suggest Paul is saying such women and in principle men are not to teach. His reference to Adam and Eve was not about the creation order or nature, b it about the fact that Eve sinned of ignorance and Adam with full knowledge.
So I get complimentarianism but I no longer hold to it bc I believe it ti be grounded in inconsistent interpretation (if women are more prove to deception why should they teach anyone? Other women or children?) and a slight misunderstanding of Paul’s letters to Timothy.
@@justchilling704I would argue that this strengthens the argument. All men are not eligible for leadership. Only those who meet the qualifications, aspire to the office, and are affirmed by a congregation.
@@jonathandulin8753 How so? I’m the New Testament being a elder or pastor is not limited to a specific bloodline?
@@justchilling704 not a bloodline, but it is limited. Just like the old covenant is largely passed through bloodline and the new isn’t.
@@justchilling704 While women hold many high roles and ministries in the New Testament (what person other than Christ can be said to have more honor than the Virgin Mary?), church leadership roles (like the Twelve) are exclusively filled by men. Also, qualifications given for presbyteroi and episkopoi use exclusively masculine terms. The proper reasoning for complementarianism is not that women are somehow deceitful, but that our life in the Church should reflect the structure and order instituted by God at creation. The relationship between man and woman (especially husband and wife) is said to be reflective of the relationship between God and his people, hence the use of words like "obedience". I believe this is why St. Paul refers repeatedly to creation when teaching on the roles of men and women.
I don't think this has to mean that women are somehow less valuable, just that God created man and woman with unique intentions for each.
I disagree with your position, but I love your process and your heart. Thank you for doing these videos. Thoughtfulness and goodwill are such a breath of fresh air in this day and age.
As a complementarian, I appreciate your take(s). Is there a category for something to be a 2nd rate issue in a local church and only 3rd rank in the convention?
There's 'something', but I'm not sure rank-ism is very Biblical...
Gavin, I would be very interested to hear you make the case for why The Trinity is a First Rank Doctrine? I take it you see the Apostle’s Creed as an incomplete or insufficient statement of Christian Faith? What exactly should a person understand that he is affirming, when he affirms “The Doctrine of the Trinity?” How much disagreement on interpretation of the Trinity is permissible?
Thank you again for your careful and charitable handling of these subjects. Your work is a blessing to me.
How do single or widowed women in the church seek counsel or spiritual wisdom? Men generally feel comfortable speaking with their church elders (also men) or pastor (also men). As a woman, I have often had spiritual issues that I wanted help or guidance on but did not feel comfortable approaching a male to discuss. How can the church have a formalized plan to deal with this? Many if not most churches have no consistent plan for women to seek spiritual help or counsel.
Women’s ministry programs and one-on-one discipleship is where you find this. Older women teaching younger woman, as found in the book of Titus.
You are a great explainer.
Verses that come to mind:
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your WOMEN keep SILENT in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is SHAMEFUL for women to SPEAK IN CHURCH.
I think the Bible is clear that women should not speak in church. I personally do not have a desire to speak in church or feel comfortable when a woman does. However, sometimes as a woman it does sadden me that we are viewed this way in the Bible. I immediately ignore the feeling & simply tell myself this is the way it is.
I do have two questions:
1- If a woman loves the Lord & is godly, is she ever allowed to tell her husband anything about the word of God? Based on scripture, it looks like we are not.
1 Timothy 2:12-14 12 And I DO NOT permit a WOMAN to TEACH or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
I am a born again Christian. By God’s grace in the last 4 years there has been fruit in my life. I thank God. My husband is Orthodox & does not believe he is saved. Most of the Orthodox WE know live worldly lives.
My husband is a pretty good man. However, am I allowed to share my views about the word of God? Can I share a verse with him and my beliefs?
I know that not our words as wives but our actions will make a difference based on scripture.
1 Peter 3: 1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,
This is why I am constantly asking you to make a video with an actual Greek person who is Eastern Orthodox. 😬 This way I can share the video with my husband. He has been wanting a pastor to meet with his priest but hasn’t been able to do that.
I know the Bible also says women will
Prophesy.
Why is it that in the last days women will be able to prophesy? Where would prophesying occur? In the church or outside of the church? Would a woman only prophesy to women and not men? This is a bit confusing for me if I’m frank.
Acts 2:17-18 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
Thank you for your comment. Why wasn’t the verse applied to men if they were also part of the sexual immorality? I am curious and wonder why.
Dr Gavin thanks for addressing the elephant in the room 🙏😊
I think it is good to have this discussion. Both men and women were created in God's image, both are given the Holy Spirit when they become Christians and both are gifted. There have been women prophets, judges, and co-laborers with Jesus by supporting His ministry. Paul worked closely with women and refers to different women as a deacon, apostle, contenders-in-the-faith, and one of the preachers was discipled by a husband-wife team. Understanding the culture of the day when Paul wrote (especially the Greek culture that was extremely restrictive for women) helps us understand men's and women's role in furthering the Gospel.
Paul said women should be quiet in church and he doesn’t permit them to hold authority over men? How do you gloss over that?
I also think the discussion is worthwhile.
My background is in Lutheranism. I was raised in and came to my understanding of faith in an ELCA church. That tradition ordains women. I think the ELCA has gone astray since their 2009 statement on human sexuality, but they ordained women pastors long before that. Not having dug into the issue wholehog myself, I accepted the teaching as something more learned minds than mine had already grappled with.
That said, I posit two potentially irreconcilable observations from my POV.
1. Anti-women being ordained. A face value reading of Paul's letters, given our present cultural axioms, indicates women should not be pastors. Another commenter referred to the Apostle saying that women should be silent in church and not hold authority over men. I can look at the Greek translations and study the culture of the time as we see it today, and there is some wiggle room here depending on the verse. Then again, should we be employing "wiggle room" to understand the Word of God?
2. Pro women being ordained. My overall experience with women ministers has not left me especially impressed - except for two, very strong exceptions. My former Lutheran pastor whom I will refer to here as Rachel, and a Nazarene pastor whose home church I sometimes attend, whom I will call Lacy.
Rachel's sermons kicked it out of the park. They were profound, insightful, and scripturally rooted.
Lacy is getting her doctorate in Old Testament Bible history. Everything she brings to the table from a teaching perspective is stellar.
If God has a standing prohibition on the ordination of women, it would not be arbitrary. Everything He has wrought that seems arbitrary is quite purposeful and for both our aedification and His glory. One need only inspect with a diligent and open mind to see it. If women being ordained to the clergy is a deleterious phenomenon to the faith, why are such strong examples provided to counter that assertion?
Between observations 1 and 2, I would be kind of stuck. My mind would say that 1 is correct based on Sola Scriptura, but my gut says 2 is the right way.
Two things tilt me in favor of 2: Luther's writing on the evidence of the Spirit at work in the lives of those who were baptized as infants rather than as adults as evidence for the efficacy and validity of infant Baptism, and a cultural viewpoint I absorbed from the book "Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes", by E Randolph Richards and Brandon J O'Brien. In their mission work in the Philippines, the authors experienced the Gospel from a very non-Western perspective. One thing in that culture that stuck out to me: the rules don't define the relationship - the relationship defines the rules. Thus, it is possible for our roles in service to God to change based on the circumstances of our generation and locale.
@YallCrazy You too should be quiet in the church. Or can you just blurt out at any point of the worship service? Perhaps there's more nuance to what Paul is saying here.
Women can prophesy and are encouraged to prophecy by Paul. Prophecy is God speaking through man or women to man. So God can talk to men through women, but man says woman can't speak to men and should be quiet? Again, either God and Paul are in contradiction, or there's more we need to understand.
No discussion is necessary. The ppl who want a discussion seems to operate with an intention of setting ppl up to compromise on what the Bible clearly says. God says women are NOT to have ANY ecclesiastical authority. That is neither unclear or ambiguous. How is it that ppl call themselves a Christian and not learn anything from Satan deceiving Eve into challenging what was a very plain command from God?
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 "No discussion is necessary."
Discussion is necessary because there is disagreement, whichever side is taken. Your own comment here is evidence of this.
"God says women are NOT to have ANY ecclesiastical authority. That is neither unclear or ambiguous."
It is unclear. Merely repeating the talking point does not make it otherwise.
Scripture does not exist in a vacuum. Each text has an original audience and context in which it was addressed. While the Spirit has certainly preserved these books in a manner that will benefit us even millennia later, they must still be understood as the intended recipients would have understood them to avoid distortions.
One such distortion may be present here. The passages often used to proscribe female clergy are typically Titus 2:3-5, 1 Timothy 2:11-15, and Ephesians 5:21-33, among others. They emphasize the importance of subservience of the wife to the husband, modeling virtue and Christ's relationship to us as the church. The Titus passage even specifies this is "so that the word of God may not be discredited."
Roman law, that which would have governed those addressed by the Apostles, was very strict when it comes to women's roles in society and especially the family. The oldest male in each household was designated the pater familias as a sort of miniature emperor of the family. To defy, even by appearance, the pater familias would be akin to rebellion against the emperor. The man held all the authority.
Consider this by way of juxtaposition: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28
When Paul urges slaves to be obedient to their masters, we can regard this not as divine endorsement of the practice of slavery, but practical advice for believers to live in a way that furthers the Gospel. Their bondage became a vocation, a vector by which their masters could witness the Gospel. Similarly, although "nor is there male and female", the law of the land specified that women should be deferent. We can contend, despite their rights in Christ, Paul is exhorting the women to live according to Roman law so that, by their good conduct, they might spread the Gospel.
It's not an ironclad case. The 1 Timothy verses indicate something more could be at work in the prohibition than cultural circumstance. But there is enough of a case that is, certainly, worth discussion.
Gavin, I listen often. Could you do something on NDE's (Near Death Experiences).... Thank you
Thanks Pastor Ortlund. I definitely want to hear more from you on this. I'm going to go looking for anything you've put out already. This is a necessary meditation on this topic, the only thing it lacks is more of it!
Thank you for this video… so good & balanced 🙏🏼🙌🏽
Great video!
I am from an ABC fraternal body in the Philippines. As a young person I was egalitarian in principle. But I did not seek ordination. I did not feel right seeking it. I felt called to be an enabler not a leader in the home, church and society. I am at present a teacher with advanced degree in Biblical Studies. The Conventiion of Philippine Baptist Churches did not join UNited Church of Christ in the Philippines. The reality on the ground is, in principle we are egalitarian, but in reality, women do not seek higher church offices, hence complementarian. Thank you Pastor Gavin.