ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มี.ค. 2023
- Should Ukraine surrender to Russia now?
In this week's episode of Face Off Peter Hitchens and Cormac Smith debate whether Ukraine and Volodymyr Zelensky should submit to Vladimir Putin and his Russian forces now.
On one side of the argument is Peter Hitchens who says the war cannot be framed as 'good vs evil' which is dominated by the Ukrainian perspective while Cormac Smith says the Ukrainians will only empower Putin if they surrender to him now.
Let us know what you think the comments👇
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#ukrainewar #russiaukrainewar #ukrainenews
Who do you think came out on top?
Hitchens, the other guy just used the same old recycled media points.
Hmmm... a concept of good and evil is recycled, congratulations, you made discovery. Hitchens wants to pay bully by land of others which would be not possible to recover. It is better to invest now in fight for internationally recognized borders, then cooperation with free society would bring profit back faster.
Putin apologists...
Hitchens. Not even close.
Hitchens. Though thanks for hosting this TalkTV - civilised debate is to be commended by the hosts and the participating guests on both sides of the debate.
The Ukraine did have an agreement, it was called the Minsk agreement, but it was all a bluff..
Yeah, Russia was not engaging in it in good faith.
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 no, you are wrong, Merkel of Germany and Allond of France 🇫🇷 both admit it was a delay tactics to build up Ukraine with weapons. Ok.
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 Nice try but the truth has come out over the last year which completely blows your nonsense into the water. We all know Ukraine/EU used it to buy time.
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 hehe really? It was their idea. They wanted it. They thought it would get them large parts of Ukraine in the future and also guarantee Ukraine doesn't join NATO or the EU.
Not just that, Merkel has come out and said it was a sham and just a trick to buy Ukraine time. Hollande much the same. Poroshenko, who signed it on behalf of Ukraine, last year also said it was all a scam and Zelensky, a month ago, admitted that he called everyone involved in 2019 and said he wasn't going to implement it.
Russia was the only one that had intention of implementing it.
"MINSK II Representatives of Russia, Ukraine, the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) and the leaders of two pro-Russian separatist regions signed a 13-point agreement in February 2015 in Minsk. The leaders of France, Germany, Russia and Ukraine gathered there at the same time and issued a declaration of support for the deal."
Seeing as this “expert” is so concerned about civilians……..can we talk about the million plus people who died in our adventure in Iraq? We really do not have any moral high ground to claim against the Russians here.
Dumb comment.
1. The war in Iraq is not the topic of the video
2. We do not need yo have moral high ground over Russia, for Ukraine has it
@@zoran5076dumb reply. Why’s Ukraine been shelling its own people since 2014? Does that compute?
@@fujohnson8667 Russia has been shelling Donbas since 2014. How do you think they managed to control so much of it?
@@zoran5076 , Ukraine has the moral high ground? By having an armed mob putsch, deposing an elected government, since disenfranchising a considerable portion of the population. Not to mention the disturbing number of Neo-Nazis that Zelenksy has on his heels in the military.
@@zoran5076 ridiculous comment, I suggest you widen your research pool
The other guy has no clue what he is talking about or what this war is about at all
But you sure have, right?
so a british diplomat to ukraine knows less then you? i mean he lived in ukraine itself... but you know more right clarence?
The war is about ruSSia believing Ukraine is a fake country created to destroy ruSSia by Poland Lithuania and used for the same by other geopolitical rivals.
You must be referring to Hitchens, I presume?
"My friends tell me..."
Yeah, nice anecdote.
He also said that he's lived through lots of wars but this is the only one he's really ever cared about. It just so happens that he worked for the British Embassy in Kiev?
Maybe it's also a coincidence that how he speaks is exactly the same rhetoric "reported" in media such as The Daily Mail? eg The Russians are simply evil whilst Ukraine can do no wrong.
Yet anyone can find out that three thousand Russian speaking civilians have been killed since 2014 way before the invasion happened.
The impression i got is that he presents an massive emotional bias towards Ukraine coupled with a simplistic "Good versus Evil" narrative which makes it impossible for anyone of that mindset to contemplate any peace negotiations. In fact it appears he's hellbent on more war and he'd be happy for Ukraine to fight until the very last man....and probably involve the draft of UK men as well if it came to it. That's just what i think though, what do you think?
Better than peters to be fair
*"I'm a Christian therefore I'm right..."*
*Yeah, nice logic Pete.*
@@MattSingh1 Given that he never said that the catastrophe of logic is all yours.
I'd like to know who these "friends" are! And why we should care about their opinions!!
2:19 wtf, that's paraphrasing Netanyahu's quote from many years ago. He said "if the Arabs lay down their arms there will be no more war, but if Israel lays down its weapons there would be no more Israel." No way this is accidental.
@@thetruth9210Why does any country exist? Israel exists because Israel won against the Arabs who tried to destroy it (numerous times). If Israel lost, it wouldn't exist. That's the way of the world.
actually the original came from a woman - Golda Meir - known as "Mother of Israel" - also Ukrainian - who gave Israel its nuclear capacity - and ironically was such a tough nut that all my Arab and muslim friends begrudgingly respect her. Netanyahu was a slightly dumbed down plagiarism of the quote - this guy is a much more heavily dumbed down plagiarism lol.
Hitchens. The other guy is insane.
*Hitchens is a Christian. He's the epitome of insane, illogical, unreasonable and irrational.*
😂🙌
👏 Well said Hitchens. Collective West dont give a damm whos dying out there
A lot more Ukrainians would have been dead if the West hadn't sent Ukraine weapons to stop the invaders.
Cool, so we Ukrainians will keep defending our country from this latest ruSSian invasion.
The only one not caring about people dying is Putin!
Not only can wars deepen and spread over time, they cause increasing resentment and bitterness on all sides.
@Tom , absolutely, but that isn't what is being proposed by Hitchens side.
@Tom , he made it very clear that Ukraine should retain its territorial integrity.
@@SagaciousFrank But Russia is not going to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity!! So, pray tell, how do we get a peace, respecting Ukraine's territorial integrity without kicking the Russians out first?
@@chrisj9700 , well perhaps not. But if Russia is defeated badly then it's possible that it will destabilise the region further and Putin will be replaced with someone worse. In any case Britain should stay well out of it.
Tom
You could argue the same point for Russia. It’s no big secret that NATO have been training the Ukrainian military for years and have repeatedly ignored Russia’s legitimate concerns over it’s own security. How do you think the USA would react if Mexico or Canada had formed a military and economic alliance with Russia and China and had weapons close to the American border pointed at the USA? Can you even begin to imagine what the USA would do if Russia or China started flying drones off the cost of the USA? Wouldn’t happen. Wouldn’t even get off the starting block. Just look at how they reacted to a few balloons floating about. Russia, rightly or wrongly perceives NATO/the west/USA as a threat to its survival and has acted accordingly.
The guy on the right is a tourch carrier, he mentioned Syria but he left out the fact Russian was invited by the government of Syria to help with the insurgents problem they was having..
And the Ukrainian government has invited the west to help against the Russian invasion
Also, the west gave weapons to the ISIS and gave them their start.
Absolutely dead right. Under International Law Assad govt perfectly within its rights to invite Russia into Syria
Insurgents? Like the ones in Donbas?
@@Rigardoful, I see what you tried to do there..
Good try tho
You need courage to agree to debate someone who repeats a lot of the statements that come out of the Kremlin.
A historian, ignores the failures of WW2 history.
That Ukraine has Nazis?
"If only we appeased Hitler more.."
Well part of that history was the appeasement of Hitler when he decided he wanted parts of Czechoslovakia..
How did that turn out ??
Or on the other side of the planet when America decided it wasn't getting involved with Japan in the east ..
Trouble with Hitchens is he has selective views ..
Not saying I don't want negotiations but as the other guy says strong arm dictators tend to see diplomacy as weakness
@Kool__Kat ummmmm as testified by ribbentrop 😆
Exactly what would expect Hitlers ambassador to say ffs
You can't be that stupid..
You must have missed the part of history where he was forced to sign as Hitlers army were massed across the border ready to take Czechoslovakia by force 🤔
"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." Churchill
Well said Peter. Over emotional thinking take us on the road to hell paved with good intentions.
@Tom I don't propose 'we' (I'm not Ukrainian) offer Putin anything. *They* should sit down and discuss a ceasefire leading to a peace deal hopefully.
@Tom That would be up to the Ukrainians. More death or concessions from both sides. Stop with the silly cotcha questions, very tedious. Good day.
@Tom A ceasefire can be negotiated. This must be the priority. After that, then peace settlements can proceed. The expected outcome would be that Crimea is formally recognised as Russian, and the independence of the Donbas is formally recognised. Ukraine is the losing faction, and they must accept that they will lose territory.
@@JohnFromAccounting with my observation to this Ukraine conflict ,I come to conclusion that Ukraine people is very rude and ungreatfull
@Tom so are you insisting that Ukraine must win Russia on battlefield with what weapons and who will supply the winning weapons
Hitchens is correct in every way.
All the facts and logic are on his side.
So stupid, Smith says if not for the involvement of the US and UK, Ukraine would not be standing. 8:30
It surely would be standing because there would have been no war.
How does he have the gall to say something like that?
The idea that Ukraine wants to commit suicide even in the face of nuclear weapons, in light of the last Hitchens debate where I think his name was Konstantine Kisin, and actual Ukrainian said that Ukrainians always wanted just peace. They don't care about Crimea, or Donbas ... and that is how Zelensky got elected ... he lied.
@@TOM-TOM-TOM
Listen to Hitchens, and maybe Mearsheimers.
Putin said and lived up to respecting Ukraine as its own country.
The problem came about when the US took over the Ukrainian government and drove to EXCLUSIVELY to the West, also claiming that it would eventually be NATO.
When the US took over the Ukrainian government, and then used force when Yanukovych was elected over Yushenko, America's choice, and Yanukovych wanted to keep Ukraine neutral and trade with both Russia and the EU, the US started military aid to the Nationalists and Nazis, and the war began in Donbas.
Without the US there would have been no war.
BUT, then look at the ethnic makeup and language of Ukraine relative to the east-west split. There is a natural split there that should be two countries, but the US wanted to force Ukraine to stay together, so it began the war on the Russian ethnics.
Every which way you look at this if you really seek out facts, the US and NATO pushed this, and its been going on for 100 years the attacks and desire to destroy Russia.
To destroy both Russia and Ukraine ... what the hell kind of operations is that for the US to be involved it, and it is the same BS as Vietnam, Iraq, etc ... I can't beleive you are defending this.
@@TOM-TOM-TOM
Hahaha, of course we did, and after Yanukovych was unConstitutionally kicked out, violently run out of the country by US backed Nazi guerillas, we more or less appointed the last two Presidents who amped up the heat on the ethnic Russian minority. Zelensky was elected on promises of ending the fighting, and he was the world puppet of all.
@@stokes8762
Credit Hitchens for that.
@@justgivemethetruth thank you. That’s a valid point. Just remembered the leaked phone conversation of Victoria Nuland when she discussed with another American official who they want to become the next president of Ukraine and who they want in the government.
@Tom , they backed the Maiden Putsch against a democratically elected government and President, thus disenfranchising a significant portion of the election. The USA has fomented this very situation we're seeing now with that and NATO expansion.
Life must be incredibly simple for cormac. No complexities, no grey areas, no nazis etc. Childish nonsense
Russia starts a brutal and bloody invasion of its neighbor, who did nothing to deserve it. How is that not black and white?
There are no complexities - that's just Russian BS propaganda. The Russian nazi state invaded Ukraine without any justification, and that's it!
Yes... The blame of this war lies at the feet of Nato and the United States. With constant provocation comes a response.
Support for Mother Russia.. 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺
Provocation? Please provide details?
@@robbie1403 em.. The constant encroaching upon Russias Western border by Nato and it American influences...
@@robbie1403 When Putin in his very first speech when he came to power, a speech which is largely forgotten now said NATO was formed as a bulwark against the old Soviet Union. But he said the old Soviet Union is no more The Warsaw pact is no more is it not now time to form a new security pact that should include all the countries of Europe, and if not then let Russia join NATO , but it fell on deaf NATO ears. Was that a unreasonable request?. In 2008 or 9 at a NATO summit in BUCHAREST NATO invited Georgia and Ukraine into a welcome on the mat to join NATO. Germany and France voted against it why? No welcome on the mat for Russia because USA drives the NATO train, Russia you can’t become a part of the EUROPEAN family. Angela Merkel said afterwards we just declared war on Russia.Putin clearly said Ukraine in NATO was a red line for him.
@@martinoneill5804 the only provocation ruSSia had was Ukraine existing
@@maryanchabursky9148 And NATO expanding eastward when their was no need to and inviting Ukraine into Russia front garden, put USA into Russia shoes what do you think USA would have done? Kiev would not be in it by now.
Smith was a government advisor for less than 9 months, after watching this it's easy to see why he's unemployed.
Competence
Russian Bot
@@userasdf1546 Simp
Peter is employed by a trashy tabloid (Daily Mail) and it's easy to see why
The guy on the right lives in a fantasy world.
geneside? that madan on the right has no idea ! bucha was staged by corrupt zelensky SBU. why dont he talk to the russian folk who have lived in crimea and donbas for hundred of years! 🙈🙉🙊
Most of the world is following him too 😭
He is just not a fascist unlike...
The guy on the right thinks that conflict is black and right but has never read a history book in his life … Hitchens is onto it. There is right and wrong on both sides … The guy on the right is advocating for a continuation of the war until Russia is defeated on the battlefield. The man on the right is advocating for World War 3!
The moment Cormac Smith drops into the "good vs. evil" realm instead of dealing with the realities of divided affections in Ukraine, the violated Minsk agreement, Ukraine's desire for inclusion in NATO, the West's desire to see Russia's military capability consumed in a protracted war, etc., he cedes the debate.
No Russia is evil and tried to invade its neighbour ever since Moscow was founded which is why everyone who borders Russia seeks protection. Russia ALWAYS sought to invade and subjugate their neighbour and this is exactly the reason why their country is so big today!
The West may not be angels, but in this conflict, Russia clearly is the agressor and theres nothing you can say that will justify the invasion. NOTHING!
How is Ukraine divided when the majority of Ukraine's Russian speakers are fighting for the UA army? Also, you're conveniently brushing over the Budapest Memorandum which Putin broke and NATO's 2008 refusal to accept Ukraine, Georgia etc. into the alliance.
That fool in the blue coat really annoyed me ,he as been totally brainwashed and indoctrinated.
Wars throughout history are always about "good and evil". Our side is good, theirs is evil. That opening remark was otiose.
The manic russofobia is at the heart of this war. It's not why the war is instigated (which is obviously global hegemony, i.e. the resources of Russia and ultimately China), but it is necessary to convince otherwise decent people to support the moral depravity that this is.
The RuZZian side is indeed evil, e.g. invading and annexing a neighbouring country, cleansing their political elite, deporting women and children, suppressing the Ukrainian language and culture etc.
I’m no expert. Just a retired teacher. But I’ve watched closely and I tend to agree that there is no black and white but shades of grey. I do think that Russia was goaded by the encroachment of America ever eastward, and I am not using that as an excuse. The war was a big error of judgment. I also agree with Peter that there were many Russian speakers who felt mistreated prior to the last conflict. I also think that the American public will become war weary and especially in an upcoming election will put pressure on their representatives to cut funding. So yes. Negotiation is the only way out.
Isn't it a bit rich to pretent Russia to be a defender of minorities given the absolutely horrific atrocities they committed in Chechnya?
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 Not really - they fixed the capital and rebuild it very well - it is now 100x better than before the war.
As for the war itself it was against a large number of terrorist formations that makes ISIS look like nice guys.
There never seemed to be any consensus in the republic as far as its political status was concerned.
If you even go to the area and say that you "support" previous guys you can get punched in the face or someone will kill you. And this is without any "Putin" loving - i.e. the "freedom" fighters are a bit "disliked" by a lot of locals.
By “encroachment of America” you mean that democratic nations chose to join an alliance to help defend them from ruSSian imperialism. Or do we Eastern Europeans not get a say over our own countries? It’s quite an imperialist thing to say that NATO should just boot out these nations.
Nope wrong again no russian speakers were mistreated. Just as no English speakers in Ireland get mistreated.
Once again pure nonsense, negotiations can not happen since ruSSia continues to push for unacceptable terms.
I am Ukrainian btw.
How does it make sense to say that Russia was goaded in to invading a country (and genocide their population), because another country "encroaches" towards Russia?
That's like saying its ok to shoot someone because another person entirely looked at you in a mean way.
Russian speakers weren't being mistreated, pro-fascist Putin supporters were, which is a good thing.
Also how is negotiation the only way out? Ukraine has shown it is capable of depleting Russia's manpower reserves.
No it wasn't.
Nato was an excuse
Putin would have invaded ukraine just as he invaded chechnya and Gerogia .
Trouble hithen has is that he's spent so long correctly critiquing the west now that the east is wrong he can't get away with blaming the west anyway
Why isn't Ukraine Expert amended to 'so-called Expert' ?
His alleged knowledge is no more substantiated than Peter's on this matter - on the contrary.
Hitchens has learned Russian history from the Kremlin propaganda book!
The "ukrainian expert" was a british diplomat to ukraine. His knowledge is far more substantiated then peters ever would be. He lived and breathed ukraine, he has an absolute right to talk about the subject.
@@ashleygoggs5679 That doesn't really say much. What's his knowledge of Russia? Of Russian?
Peter lived there during the fall of the USSR, can speak and understand Russian, visited Ukraine often, Crimea, Georgia, and so on.
He has far more understanding of the situation, which is clear to see. Peter speaks unemotionally about and doesn't insist on this farcical Good vs Evil narrative.
Anyone who thinks that has been fooled, again.
@@ManForToday Peter was only in russia during the fall of the soviet union and the birth of the federation. Its rich if you think he some how knows everything about both countries 30 years later. Peter hasnt lived in russia neither ukraine since and likely has no idea on what the overall consesus of each nations peoples truely think. Thats like saying i knew a guy who went to france for 4 weeks there for he knows everything there is to know about france. Its a stupid notion, Your argument would have been right... 30 years ago, this is 2023 not 1991.
Meanwhile the Diplomat was living in ukraine around 2014 when the maidan revolution happened. He has a more upto date experience on the people. Sure he might not have true insight into the russian people, however his knowledge of ukraine is far more upto date then Peters.
In terms of good and evil, while wars are never always black and white. This war has a more clear definition then most in my opinion, as someone who has ties to both russia and ukraine and has watched the war since 2014 and studied many actions since then i find it is pretty clear to find the distinctions of what is good and evil in this current war. Am i saying it is distinctly Good and Evil... no, but i am saying one side has been more evil then the other. And so i will quote you but slightly change what you said.
Anyone who dosnt think that has been fooled, again.
@@ashleygoggs5679 This is just absurd my dad is tougher than your dad stuff.
The facts and arguments alone are enough without even considering these two people.
That's why 'the Diplomat' can't answer the simple question at the end:
Every single person who is pro-war here (who is almost always anti-Russia firstly) cannot state clearly what the objective is or the interest of foreign nations.
None of you will admit that a complete Russian capitulation is your objective and that you'd rather see such a defeat instead of wanting to negotiate peace.
Instead, all you're interested in is continuing a war you're not involved in because you think Evil has anything to do with this war - it doesn't.
As for ties, I also have them as I lived there too, learned to speak Russian and knew plenty of Russian-Ukrainians.
IS the other guy an actor???? The way he speaks and delivers his points are almost like theatre. Almost an over fake passion mixed in with an overuse of inflammatory words and claims. Maybe he could say "genocide” a few more times.
How dare people get emotional over war.
@@BreiiisBreiiis it's supposed to be an objective debate/interview. Just my opinion,but it all seemed very staged and disingenuous.
@@CaratacusAD There is no such thing as an objective debate on a fundamentally ethical question like "Should Ukraine Surrender Now?". We are human and the moral values we have are subjective and emotional in origin.
We can cite facts and then check up on each other to make sure we are living in the same material reality and have coherent logical faculties, which is nice and good, but in the end, this debate is between someone who is not particularly invested in Ukraine and someone who cares a lot for Ukraine.
I'm not sure whether someone should surrender or not if an entirely ethical question at all. It's more practical or pragmatically based in most cases, and I think we will see this with Zelensky future decisions. Especially since this is proxy conflict with a lot of powerful players behind the scenes. I think certainly at this stage a surrender decision will be based on real things Ukraine would lose or gain through such as decision. Very rarely do you get a madman willing to illogically burn the country down and let everyone die at the end like say Hitler did, then I suppose you could definitely say that was unethical.
Either way the point you raised around emotion are valid but kind of prove my point. I understand it's an emotive subject especially if you were a Ukrainian or say a Russian, but this guy isn't and that's key. I just felt he was laying it own way to thickly almost to the point it was becoming a Sermon barely letting Peter make his point. Although Mr Hitchens can be guilty of the previous as well. Anyway, just an opinion.
@@CaratacusAD It is a philosophical question about what ought to happen and thus It is squarely in the realm of ethics.
Making a subjective value judgment based on your sense of morality doesn't mean pragmatism or practicality have to be absent, but still, your core values will determine which of the options you have are even considered as valid.
For instance, during the Cold War, some people used to say: "Better dead than red". This may seem non-pragmatic to some, but for someone who sees communism as an absolute evil, it may be the most pragmatic solution available to them in their moral system.
This is an existential fight for Ukraine; we see nothing from Putin's side but eagerness to trample on weak neighboring countries who aren't willing to do as he says, and he has explicitly stated many times: "Ukraine doesn't exist; it's all Russia." To surrender to Russia means to cease to exist as a sovereign people, country, and culture. They stand to gain absolutely nothing but lose everything if they give in to Putin when he has only broken their trust and hurt them.
Insofar as one cares about the continued existence and liberty of Ukraine, to think of Ukraine surrendering to Russia is nothing short of fantastic. This option simply is not on the table for the vast majority of Ukrainians and their sympathizers, and so the idea of reaching a more "pragmatic" solution will not amount to anything.
Also, the point about needing to be Ukrainian or Russian to have an investment in this conflict can't seriously be your position. Do you believe people who haven't been raped can't be outraged when they listen to someone talk about their rape? I would hope that this relatively common degree of empathy for victims is not exotic to you.
Sorry for the wall of text :)
This was a great discussion. From what I understood, they basically agree in certain crucial aspects, but differ greatly on how their shared objectives can/should be pursued.
Yes the crucial difference in these certain aspects is that one is a renowned peacemaker and the other is clearly an abject warmonger and it’s about time that Talk News has put him up against someone who can expose his true motives rather than the fawning JHB😮
Peter Hitchens is the grown up here , although seems unrealistic to go back to 1991 borders and not something Russia would ever accept
@@Abulb99 thanks for letting us know
@@nmsmith1158 id agree, if i was putin and i really was the madman they paint him to be, id say to hell with you all and nuke NATO than give back a single inch of what Russia has paid dearly to take. Russia continues to have this growing military alliance that completely dwarfs it and is ever expanding closer and closer to its border. This after US pullout of Nuclear missile treaties, years of deceitful negotiations by NATO and EU like Minsk 2, US tearing up Iran deal, orchestrating anti russian coups in Ukraine, stoking ethnic conflict between russian population of ukraine and other ukrainians, the destruction of Nordstream pipelines etc. If you put yourself in Russia's shoes, NATO comes across as the big evil empire agitating trouble in Russia's backyard and this being a do or die war. If NATO has its way it will not only seek complete collapse of Russia but its dismemberment with separatist movements within Russia or its complete control via Western companies and demilitarization. I understand that Ukraine has the right to defend its territory but there is a much bigger war going on between Russia and NATO and Russia's fears are legitimate.
They are both scraping the surface, neither expert enough to hold this discussion.
Cornac seems to talk like a rugby player , after match having taken a few knocks. Whatever comes out at the end of this conflict, it will be done by intelligent people who understand nuance . Mutual unhappinesses I suspect.
One wants peace the other wants fear, war and death
No, one wants to help Ukraine to defend itself, the other wants to force Ukraine into surrendering to a bloody dictator.
*Fear, war and death*
*That's Christianity defined.*
So Ukraine shouldn't exist, because war is bad? I have never supported a war in all my life. Until now. Breaking the decades of peace in Europe should have consequences. If we just let it happen. We are just pussies facilitating evil. If we were soft on Russia, China probably would have already invaded Taiwan. Now they wouldn't dare. Russia already has enough land and resources. War is bad, but sometimes it's necessary.
Hitchens supports the death penalty
Who started the war? The KGB thug in the Kremlin!
“Good and Evil “ For goodness sake 😂
He overlooks the west invading Iraq and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocents over a lie. And then the rest of the wrecking of the middle east.
I know what an ignorant brainwashed fool
Yes, a hilarious view - that's still prevalent with people I know. People who get their 'news' from TV and Newspapers.
As soon as the word evil is used I know the person is nothing more than a propagandist.
Hitler Germany and Stalin ussr were not evil?
Peter Hitchens had a sensible conversation, the other guy spoke of his feelings and what his friends had told him without any evidence to verify.
@Tom I’m sorry you couldn’t understand a very cultured conversation unlike the other guy who was a propaganda merchant
Hitchens isn't being bombed, sitting in his Palace
@@barriewatson but zelenski has nazi army battalions, banned Christianity and hangs his political opponents. Thank god putin is destroying Ukraine it’s a nazi state
@Tom no matter how much the west pumps money into Ukraine, Russia will end up taking over vast swathes of Ukraine
Except all the lies Hitchens told
Let the war Munger pick up a rifle and go to the frontline.
If you do not fight the bully where he starts, the front line will soon be at your door.
Your reasoning would have all of Europe bowing to Hitler by 1942.
hows he a warmonger. Hes correct, russia or should i say putin only responds to power. If we use diplomacy he sees weakness, this will only stop the war until he builds up his army once more and goes back... sounds familiar? oh wait chechnya, russia got fucked they made negotiations and once the army was back up they attacked again. The only way to get rid of the russians is to completely tire them out and force them back. Unless you have a better suggestion but i doubt you do?
Why not Hitchens
Let Hitchens try and negotiate with ruSSia
Someone defending their land and yet they are the warmonger? 🤔
I'm with Peter Hitchens on this one. Boris Johnson said Ukraine keep fighting. Ukraine will be hung to dry
Churchill started a war in Europe in the name of defending the sovereignty of Poland. Poland was immediately hung out to dry and occupied by Nazis and Soviets. They didn't achieve independence for half a century.
Absolute nonsense. There was no peace deal, because Russia wouldn't leave Ukraine!
Ukraine is fighting because it was invaded it’s that simple Russia leaves there is no war
Poor us, if only Boris did not force us to fight 😂😂😂
Lol you think that our defence of our country is because Boris Johnson said so?
A Ukraine expert.😂😂😂 A mouthpiece for the intelligence community who claims to get his info from inside the Ukrainian govt.... who of course never lie. 🙄
Out come the lies about Bucha etc and unfounded nonsense about Kiev and Russia not stopping with Ukraine. Tired old rhetoric that doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.
A UN report has been given that there are no findings of genocide on the side of Russia
You’re joking … the ICJ jugdement is just the first step towards exposing the war crimes committed by Russia
But the kremlin is much more trustworthy right?
TH-cam guidelines won’t let me express my animosity. But as a Ukrainian I am wishing upon you the vary worst for denying the murdered of my fellow Ukrainians at the hands of the ruSSian army.
Zelensky doesn't call the shots. There was a deal on the table last April after 3 rounds of talks. NATO vetoed it. This is NATOs war. Ukraine is just the cannon fodder unfortunately
That is the crime ... the US/UK seeks to justify their larger crimes by pointing at Russia's minor crimes and mistakes.
That's absolute horseshit. There was no peace deal in the spring, because Russian wouldn't vacate Ukraine. That was the end of the peace talks.
@@chrisj9700 There isn't. Just made up Kremlin propaganda that only the dumbest people would fall for.
What's the details of that 'deal' you mentioned here?
Yeah. The US Empire uses only a few US/NATO troops/advisors in it's wars. In Lybia and Syria they used ISIS and Al Qaeda etc as proxies. Against Russia they're using Ukrainian proxies, and looks like they'll be using Taiwanese proxies in their war against China. What does the US care if Ukraine is destroyed?
Cormac Smith takes the Ukraine governments word as truth lol
Cormac is about as naive a commentator I've seen since this war kicked off. He should go back to driving a taxi
And Hitchens recites from the Kremlin propaganda book!
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 the reality of the situation is once you remove pride from the situation, the best conclusion to this conflict is for Ukraine to make territorial concessions and end the war ASAP.
The longer it goes on the worse Ukraine as a country becomes. The frequency of the aid donated and the slowness of the Wests decisions about what to give has told us they aren't fully invested in Ukraine taking back all of their territory.
Ukraine are going to receive about 28 tanks by the end of spring. We went from UAF pipe dream of having hundreds of Western tanks and IFVs ready for a huge spring counter offensive to the reality of them having 28 tanks over a front line that has 1000+km and 3 depths of defensive lines.
Sadly the Russians have shown resilience to the sanctions, they are self sufficient in basically everything but tech (which China and other asian countries can easily fill). The have gained millions of people in Donbas to use as militia and they have 1.4 million annual military males a year, all Russia need to batter Ukraine is artillery shells and small arms ammunition.
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 There is such a thing as objective truth.
Yes one side is lying and the other is telling (mostly) the truth, what should concern you is who is lying to you, After all, We DO have a long record of starting multiple conflicts based on packs of lies.. excuse me... "bad intelligence"
I dont like being lied to, they lie so damn often and we all have the receipts to prove it.
Honestly, its like living in an insane asylum.
You should have ZERO trust in what you are being told by these people because they are proven lairs and will drive you over the cliff without batting an eye.
If we allow them to take us further down this road we're going to deserve everything that will happen as a result.
Indeed, he's like a first year undergraduate.
Peter never fails to insist upon truth
The astonishing thing is he is always doing so as a tiny minority, and in many cases alone.
I’m almost certain a majority of people in the country have views along similar lines on this subject, yet the media and political parties are as one in their support for what could very well end up as thermonuclear ww3
You can tell he's pretty restricted on what he can say on Ukraine. Anyone who is accused of being a 'putin apologist' in the west are immediately censored.
@@ballshippin3809 But he is a Putin apologist. He keeps banging on about how this is all the fault of the West. If that isn't apologising, what is?
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 It is the fault of the west though. It was the US backed junta which overthrew the Ukrainian government in 2014 and put Ukraine into the mess it's in today.
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 Understanding the role played by the west in this situation - which is huge - doesn't make one an apologist for anyone.
It seems to me that those who shout the loudest for war are those furthest from where the bullets are flying. He reminds me of Lord Farquaad in Shrek, "Some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make".
Yeah ,somebody else gotta do the dirty work as long as I get my family, Paycheck,TV,Video games,drink,vacation and women.
Exactly, reminds of a certain ex KGB agent.
The only one willing to send people to their death is Putin. He has so much blood on his hands he could dye the entire Pacific ocean red!
I find that characters such as Conor that demand war to continue are not so ardent in their belief that they will volunteer to join the Ukrainian army.
Russia could end the war tomorrow by withdrawing from Ukraine!
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 Ukraine could end tomorrow by giving up.
@@blurtam188 And let themselves be exposed to rape, murder and destruction at the hand of the invading Russians. Oh what a great idea!
yet i find it absolutely hilarious how idiots talk about 50+ year old, unfit men would some how manage to be given the all clear by the ukrainian army to join them 🤣🤣 he stands a better chance of joining the russian army, the russian army seems to take anyone willing to hold a gun even if you was 150kg fluid fatty lump.
We don't take people without military experience.
Ukraine is fighting an unwinnable war the only solution to end the hostilities is peace negotiations asap which will end all the suffering of people on both sides
And how would that come about? Russia could end the war tomorrow, but Putin won't. Why would negotiations change that?
@Fletcher And what happens if Ukraine stops fighting tomorrow? Russia takes over the entire country!
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 you fail to realize that negotiations are the only thing that ever ended any conflict. How many more people should die before serious talks are started? Both sides have to sacrifice something and come to an agreement that is not satisfactory to both but that’s the price of peace.
@@IR-vi6ty That's complete nonsense: ww1 and ww2 ended with the unconditional surrender of Germany. Only after that was a peace deal negotiated/dictated.
" but that’s the price of peace." How does a country (Ukraine) negotiate a peace with another country (Russia) which has clearly stated that the first country doesn't have a right to exist?
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 “U.S. Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff Mark Milley urged Ukraine and Russia to find a "political solution", saying that the war in Ukraine is unwinnable by purely military means” you can’t compare this war to world wars
Peter Hitchens vs typical NPC
What does NPC stand for please?
@@timelwell7002 non playable character in a video game. Used to refer to people who are programmed by the established media and government what to think rather than using their own cognition
@@ballshippin3809 I'm not programmed by anyone. Apparently you have been by FSB propaganda and misinformation.
What distresses me is that it's not only the far left who have this situation badly wrong, it's the far right as well.
Oh - but I understand - Cormac Smith is an expert in his field, but as Micheal Gove said many times:
'The country has had ENOUGH of experts.'
Whereas I take notice of experts, because they are in the habit of knowing what they're talking about.
Oh so you are a saboteur you had your hand dirty in the Maidan massacre?
And the massacre of peaceful ethnic Russians protesters in Donbass.
@@ballshippin3809 and the Ukrainian protested in Donbas, what happens to them? (Also nothing happens to the “ethnic russian protesters).
@@maryanchabursky9148 There are videos from 2014 of Ukrainian army gunning down peaceful protesters in Donetsk and Luhansk, the west did not condemn it because the Kiev junta is a puppet of the US to antagonize Russia. If innocent civilians are openly being killed then they have every right to defend themselves and break away from a regime that wants to cleanse them.
@@ballshippin3809 What videos?
Hitchens won it easily. Cormac Smith is the type of wally that the Cabinet Office too often employs. I am sure he was a Remainer on top of all his other inanities.
How do you win a debate by regurgitating Kremlin propaganda?
It's simple for me, when someone starts talking about war in terms of good and evil they are clueless and understand nothing.
World War 2
@Fletcher that is the nature of war; strategic and tactical decisions are made to defeat an opponent.
@Fletcher I see your point, my misunderstanding.
We could call them the invaders and the invaded if that helps.
@Fletcher How can they invade their own country? You might as well say Russia invaded Chechnya (twice)
Anecdotal info, and appeals to emotion are always a cheap move in a debate.
Hitchens was 100 percent confident that putin wouldn't invade. He's mediocre
"The plural to anecdote is not data"
Anecdotal evidence dosnt really apply here as he has connection to ukrainian government, and he was a diplomat of britain to ukraine. His "anecdotal" evidence no matter if it is anecdotal has more weight behind it then what Hitchens said. Lest we not forget Hitchens didnt even remotely answer the question of how we get to a diplomatic agreement. Hitchens said we should do this but not how get there.
Ah yes, people don't experience emotions I forgot
Like vietnam got to destroy the village to save it
According to ruSSia
Cormac Smith, another NATO/EU, cheerleader
Im English. This war is nothing to do with us. I respect the Ukrainian people fighting for their freedom. But its not my fight. And not my countries fight. And im not willing to risk an escalation that could lead to Global Nuclear annihilation over the Ukraine.
This war has everything to do with the English, but not for the reason you think. Ukrainians are dying in a English/US proxy war against Russia.
@@wolfy789 Keep your pathetic Kremlin talking points to yourself!
Britain promised to help Ukraine in case of aggression according to the Budapest memorandum.
@@user-wm5rt9pw5l I dont care what the Government "promised". People here dont want war.
@@carlwoods4564 well then, it's time for you to care about what the government promised because your government promised it in exchange for Ukraine's surrender of nuclear weapons.
And if you do not understand what will happen if a nuclear power avoid its obligations to a non-nuclear state in the light of an attack on it by another nuclear state, then you are a great illustration of why some people should not have the right to vote.
No debate at all really. Just a Ukrainian ministry worker emotionally connected to the regime.
Is Cormac Smith more naive than he is dim, or the other way round?
Ukraine can decide of they want to keep fighting but US & other countries decides if they will support it with arms
rave
Of course they will continue to support because the military-industrial complex likes profit. But this will not end the war.
Based
Why isn’t this lad in Ukraine? He’s so passionate about Ukrainian boarders and telling us we should be too, when our own are completely open and penetrated daily
He's got a note from his mum.
@@timfallon8226 Tear up the note and send this aggressive ignoramus liar to the front line to fight without any weapons.
Lol as if being "penetrated" by military forces is the same as mass immiigration. Thats an insanely stupid take imo.
Exactly, best comment I have read
Colorado is just like Bahmut 😂
If someone tells just one lie then we can discredit all he says. cormak has told many lies in this debate, and his only source of information seems to be from his friends in Ukraine.
I don't always agree with Peter but this time I find his understanding of the situation frighteningly similar to my own. Unless a settlement is reached and the US eases down on Russia, this will get pretty big fairly soon and, I fear, to everybodys detriment
@Tom … what pressure was put on the US when Kruschev put nuclear missiles in America’s back yard (Cuba)?
@Tom we were pushing for Ukraine to join NATO. Russia claimed they were ready to talk peace if we would stop pushing it. All wars are bankers wars. This is about money and resources on all sides. Its about the US petro dollar. The US is in financial ruin and if we don't go to war we will see worse than the Depression in the 1920s. Not to mention our hand in blowing up Nordstream. We keep escalating. Poking the beast. Crossing the red lines Russia has put down.
This war leads nowhere good and it doesn't have anything to do with us peasants. They don't care about us. None of them do.
Tom
The USA (through NATO) was putting a lot of pressure on Russia when it repeatedly ignored Russia’s legitimate concerns over it’s border with Ukraine and decided to stir things up in that part of the world.
It's no secret, the USA have been getting involved in all sorts of clandestine operations all over the world since the end of WW2. The Russians have been warning NATO (dominated by the USA) to stop pushing eastwards up to it's borders for decades now. As I've stated in a previous post, this has always been seen as a great security threat by those in the Kremlin.
@@TheNobbynoonar No country in the world has the right to forbid other countries from choosing their alliances, including Russia.
Even a toddler with brain damage knows this isn't good against evil. FFS
If Russia brutally invading a peaceful neighboring country without any reason isn't evil, what the hell is???
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 it's not without any reason
@@pavlos712 There is NO justification for what Putin has done to Ukraine!
@@ThomasDanielsen1000peaceful is a stretch they put neo nazis into army and pur them in Eastern regions. Don't take my word look at almost any news cast from the time. Azoz are not the sort of people a peaceful nation launches on its own citizenship
@@typicalsomeone5073 More Kremlin propaganda! The only nazis are in Russia. Why do you think the Wagner group is named after Hitler's favorite composer?
Ukraine's neutrality was doing fine until in 2014, when western politicians turned up in Kiev to encourage the crowd to depose a government they had democratically elected because it had signed a finance package with Russia. Ukraine should remain outside NATO and the EU. Nor should it be aligned with Russia of course. Simple trade agreements are the key here. And non-alignment.
Nice edit of history there, the small group of protesters where there because the than president cancelled the EU deal and went with the Russian one. The riot police brutalized the protesters and than more showed up to protest the beating and the general corruption of the government, after all the president became quite wealth doing the bidding of Russia. Ukraine has every right to apply to the EU and NATO if it wishes, it is past the time that we treat Russia with kid gloves. The great Russian bear has proven during this current conflict to have nothing but rotten teeth and claws, which matches its brains and heart wonderfully.
Agreed, but too late for all that now!
@@jayjones616 Not really.
Ha ha really
@@MrTangolizard Prove me wrong.
Conor had cut the debate short as he had to go outside and bark at the moon!
I might not agree with everything Peter says, but he raises some good points. It is shocking to me why in mainstream media we avoid debate about reasons why this war have started?
It started because Russia fucking invaded its neighbor, because the megalomaniac Putin wanted to restore the czarist empire. It's not very difficult to understand!
What difference would that make now?
People like Hitchens are on the media every day telling us..
'Russia was provoked/Ukraine is corrupt/Zelensky is a clown/Nato aggression/US proxy war/EU expansionism/Western escalation' etc
It seems to be the dominant narrative among right-leaning commentators.
No he doesn't.... he says a lot of words... but nothing constructive.
Because it’s obvious even to the ignorant media that this is an imperialist war by ruSSia.
Cant take serious someone so passionate about war but still sitting in a comfortable studio in the safety of London
Give the Irish guy a gun and stick him on the front line. That may make him think again about war.
Peter says he went to the Donbas region in 2012. And they weren't happy about how they were being treated. Well, Viktor Yanukovych was in power in 2012. The guy that Putin supported and helped to power. I mean, Hitchens is always grumbling about the UK government. Should he be annexed by Russia too?
The divide of the Soviet Union had many failures, and the Donbas region is one of those. They never considered themselves "Ukrainian" like the other regions did. The refusal to allow this region independence from the Ukrainian government is the cause of war. What's so scary about two states gaining their rights to self governance?
There's no crime to want better. You think the UK govt shouldn't have its detractors? Look at the mess Labour and the Tories have left. They deserve to be held to account.
@@bryanbelshaw7725 Ok, but that doesn't mean you want to be annexed by China, does it
@@awesomeavengersfaithfulcan8543 have you failed to notice that China is buying the UK up?
Ur argument doesn't make sense. Yanukovych, Russia puppet, mistreating the ethnic Russians? What Hitchin saying is that the ethnic Russians had grievances despite Yanukovych.
He was the democratically elected president who was overthrown, in a US led coupe.
Just found out he was previously a member of the Irish bobsleigh team..excellent
A return to 1991 would require removing NATO, Western economic cultural military and political involvement and intervention in Ukraine to the position as it was in 1991. It is that gradual and ongoing encroachment at the heart of the conflict.
Great comment. I did not think of that.
@@TOM-TOM-TOM No it would need to accept what was acknowledged in 1991. THat Russia has a valid interest in the extent that other nations philosophically opposed to them with sufficient military power to pose a threat have a presence and the ability to exert influence in their neighboring state. This is essentially the same as the declaration of the American Munro Doctrine that applies to areas more distant from their borders than Uktaine is to Russia. Cuba was an example. How would it go do you think if Russian influence including military became significant in Mexico or Canada.
@@elkabongg2716 But neither Canada nor Mexico is afraid that the United States will attack them, and therefore they are not looking for an alliance with Russia.
@@elkabongg2716 Your analysis makes no distinction between decrepit, mafioso dictatorships (Putin's Russia or the Castro's Cuba) and a western liberal democracy, perhaps the most positively influential one of the modern era (USA) and burgeoning liberal democracies (Ukraine). That is absurd.
This is where your analogy falls down. Ukraine trying to become a liberal democracy is not Cuba trying to become a tinpot Communist dictatorship, and America / NATO securing liberal democratic Europe is not Communist Soviet Union securing a tinpot Communist dictatorship.
Liberal democracies are tangibly, measurably, far better than any third world strongman dictatorship. The denial of this by you most likely sat in an air-conditioned liberal democracy is a tired and well trodden joke
@@theartfuldodger8609 So explain to me what relevance any of that has to the idea of a return to the status quo of 1991 that my comment was about. Which part expressed a denial of anything or made any comparison between the virtues of liberal democracy and dictatorship? Maybe you did not understand my post or just needed to get something off your chest and decided this was as good a place as any.
Did this man know that there was a Minsk agreement that was asking the Ukranian leadership to give autonomy to the Donbass???
If this was done does he still think there would have been a war???
The Minsk agreement was only ever there for Putin to have an excuse to meddle in Ukrainian affairs. So yes, the war would have come no matter what. Do you really think that Putin, who has thrown away so many Russian and Ukrainian lives gives two hoots about the people in Donbass?
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 So you really signed the Minsk agreement with utter dishonesty to buy time? Just like Holland of France and Merkel of Germany said???
And you want the rest of the world to trust you again and suffer because of you???
Did you really want the Donbass to abandon their heritage and join a gender neutrality disciple like the European union....???
Did the Donbass, Kherson, Zaporezia, Mykhalaiv, Kharkiv, Denipro, Odessa and others stop Western Ukraine from joining the European Union???
Why did you need to for e them to join a beast they had no affinity with????
Do you really think that because of a tiny Ukraine the World should have World War 3....
On the second day after the signing of the treaty, Russia captured the city of Debaltseve in violation of it. Throughout the history of the Minsk process, Russia pretended that it was not part of it.
Yes
My guy Ukraine did. It was ruSSia that hat refused to fallow through on Minsk 1 and 2 and discuss it with Zelensky over 3 separate times.
The opening line was twaddle in every sense.
Which statement
Stupidity on steroids.
Just really annoying to even hear it. Lovely chap though.
@@themanwiththegoldengun1998”it’s clearly good vs evil”
@@fujohnson8667 OK, I'll asked, who's good and who's evil
British interest in this war is to respect the fucking document it signed in 1994!
Hats off to Mr. Hitchens, a very spiritual and deeply thoughtful gentleman. As for the Ukrainian "expert", Mr. Smith nicely said that he probably has not seen as much War as Mr. Hitchens. I guess that he has never seen a war from the first row. Then he said: "This is the first war that has been really important to me because I have people who are on the front line. I have people who are diplomats, and I have, on a weekly basis, I get told about either friends, or friends of friends, who have died, so it's a war that I feel very viscerally...". Well, Mr. Smith, just for your information, all wars are horrible, and innocents die. The fact that this war is so special to you doesn't mean that all Ukraine youth should die while you are being so visceral.
A real chick hawk is Mr Smith
Guy on the right comes off as unhinged, unreasonable and extremely bias. Be skeptical of anyone who paints any war today as simple battle between good and evil.
How is this war not a simple battle between good and evil?
@@Khalkara a) because Russia was provoked, b) because Ukraine isn't entirely innocent (eg. they have full on Nazi battalions).
@@Ballardian a) No, Russia was not provoked in any way, b) the only nazis are in the Kremlin (why do you think that the Wagner group was named after Hitler's favorite composer?)
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 a) Yes, Russia was provoked - there was ample evidence, including memos sent to Washington by the US ambassador to Russia (now head of CIA), that if Ukraine was allowed to join NATO this could lead to war, but in 2008 US went ahead and promised Ukraine future membetship. Also, Zelensky government failing to stop the shelling of Donbas, and persecuting ethnic Russians in Ukraine.
b) I take it you've never heard of the Azov battalion (literally neo- nazis)? Or the Banderaists.
@@Ballardian a) No, Russia was not provoked - that's a pathetic Kremlin talking point. How was Ukraine provoking Russia? By daring to be an independent country pursuing ties with the West rather than with the corrupt Russian cleptocracy?
"that if Ukraine was allowed to join NATO this could lead to war" Ahh, so you think Russia should have the right of veto countries joining NATO? Why? Just because?
"Also, Zelensky government failing to stop the shelling of Donbas, and persecuting ethnic Russians in Ukraine." More pathetic Kremlin talking points! If Putin hadn't send militias into Ukraine from Russia, there would be no civil war in the Donbas!
b) Yes, I have heard of the Azov battalion. Ever heard of the Wagner group and its founder Dmitry Ustin that literally had SS tattooed on his chest? It's so utterly pathetic hearing you Russian trolls whining about nazis in Ukraine, when russo-nazis literally formed a central core of the Russian war effort!
I agree with Peter. No to war and no to funding war.
So we just let Russia steamroll into Ukraine or what?
You either support the weaker since with action or the stronger side with inaction. Make your choice.
This is really childish thinking. The anti-war position is to support people's ability to fend of warmongers like Putin.
You can't end war without violence.
You mean yes to rewarding Russia for its barbarism in the form of land concessions. No to helping our neighbour defend itself from rape and murder. It really is good that your type are nowhere near government.
This is not childish thinking. This is being realistic. We do not want a war which will spill into other countries and possible end with nuclear bombs. Why do people think if NATO troops go in, they will only be fighting Russia There are plenty of countries that support Russia and who knows what they will do then.
A good debate, Peter talks alot of sense, the other guy just seems passionate about Ukrain but that's where his debating efforts end. The fact that we UK citizens will always be denied anything factual about the Ukrain Rusxia war and any other war , we will always be in the dark with such matters because the reality would probably be to horrific to contemplate.
Ukrainians also feel passionate about Ukraine. That does not invalidate their cause.
@@jamesmayo9015 not in the least, I know that Nato, US and UK are pumping cash into the war effort rather than trying to resolve the issues peacefully, seems to me that Ukraine people are being unfortunatly being used as fodder, sorry, but thats how it looks to me. (FYI, I dont watch mainstream media as its untrustworthy).
Suggest you listen to it again... Hitchens does not talk a lot of sense.... when pressed to develop his idea on a ceasefire and a negotiated peace which involves the restoration of Ukrainian sovereign territory back to 1991 borders - thereby necessitating a full withdrawal of Russian forces from territories IT HAS ALREADY ANNEXED, including CRIMEA, he instead moves on and talks about forced regime change in Moscow, destabilising Europe and leading us into WWIII.
So like his opponent here, I would be very interested to hear from Mr. Hitchens or anyone else in the comments section how Mr. Putin will accept simply withdrawing from invaded and subsequently annexed lands in a way that doesn't result in him being assassinated by his own political elite, or losing his job, or likely both...... please do tell.
Indeed sad that some seem so ignorant of ruSSias imperialism, they suffer brain damage and start speculating on the causes of the war instead of just listening and understanding putins speeches where he explains it.
@@Coconautify The only way this ends is if Ukraine gives up land and agrees to military neutrality. The only question is how much land they have to give up, how much more death and destruction take place before that point, and whether they can secure EU membership and Western money to rebuild their now much smaller and less populated country.
Hitchens is a excellent debater(like his bro) & his truth & rationality was met emotionally irrationally. Smith's delusional & so bias he can't see past his nose. There's fault on both sides but it seems Ukr (who The Guardian called the most corrupt ) is whiter than white. Ukr shouldn't be so uppity.
Its has terrible human right's & right wing nationalism is rife. It should aspire to be like Austria: neutral, free & prosperous. Its got a lot of work to do since on corruption perception index Ukraine came near bottom at 122nd out of 180 countries: Austria was 14th.
Smith brings up former CIA David Petraeus but let's not forget William Burns the current director of CIA served as US ambassador to Russia from 2005 - 08. In his
memoir The Back channel" he writes:
"Sitting at the Embassy in Moscow in the mid nineties, it seemed to me that NATO expansion was premature at best needlessly provocative at worst".
Hitchens had nothing to offer other than incoherent waffle!
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 'The lady doth protest too much, methinks'
Peter Hitchens is the king of debating. He will never be beaten.
No, he's the king of meaningless waffle!
He is unless the debate involves his religion
He's not his brother... He's good, but he's not "never defeated" good. But close.
he didnt remotely win this debate, he said absolutely nothing and failed to answer the question on how to get to a diplomatic soluation. Just said we should end the war quickly and diplomatically. Nothing else was even worth listening to, infact nothing he said was remotely worth listening to.
You're joking ? He is not even close to his brother who was actually the master of debate !
Every time Cormac speaks- Benny Hills theme starts playing
This guy is delusional. Hitchens kept boxing him into his own contradictions.
Like what?
You made a mistake, the title should be "Should Russia surrender now"?
Good versus evil is not a serious argument. It is a simplistic idea made up to help people who are not serious or simply don't know anything. So Me good, that guy over there with the ugly nose, He bad. Come with me, we defeat the Evil. Ha ha n.a. ha. See how it works.?
Good and evil is subjective.
What we're seeing is the self interests of certain agents of the globe, clashing.
Ding ding ding... exactly 💯
Yah, the interest of Ukraine to keep existing and the interest of ruSSia to end Ukraine as a state and a people.
@@maryanchabursky9148 it's the interest of Western hegemony vs Russian imperialism. Ukraine and Donbas are the puppets for each side.
And subjectively Russia is evil and Ukraine is good.
@@Khalkara To disallow the right to self determinism in Donbas is evil. Why do nations care more about land (which they do not own) than the lives of the people who live there?
How does the participant debating Mr. Hitchens foresee the future of the Russians ? that is kindly about the Russian people as well as the Ukrainian people …living at the edge of Europe does any one see a long term solution ?
I think people ought to be given some grace to device their own solution from within according to their own culture and language..weapons are never a solution
Two world wars.. not enough to teach us ? The world still remembers (?)
Peter was calm and measured. The other chap was loud and angry. We should be listening to Peter.
@Tom Respect, to begin with.
@Tom What have you offered ? More dead? How do you think you are by saying "What does he think we should give Putin "? You are no one, indeed the UK is a small fish to have any role in this war. So if you have nothing to give, dont insist on killing more Ukrainians. Uk was led into a sensless war already in Iraq, now this is the second time.
@Tom I hope Putin asks you to interview him, I'd like to see that. 🎉
@@JohnFromAccounting "Respect, to begin with" And what exactly has he done to earn that respect, other than completely destroy parts of Ukraine?
@Tom That’s what Lloyd - George thought when he went on his pilgrimage to Hitler’s redoubt, gave the Hitler salute, came back and write enthusiastic articles in the press on ‘what a nice man!’ basis. Chamberlain too found the evil genie someone who was as good as his word…
And I have never understood how Lloyd-George offered his support to Churchill in May 1940 but on one condition…that Chamberlain be excluded ie how he disliked Chamberlain yet if anything they had one thing in common and that was their initial beliefs that Hitler was a reasonable man. Thank the Good Lord we had Churchill… Who have we got today to oppose Putin? Our political set-up is useless putting its belief in long-life money trees…
Peter’s argument seems to be let Russia hold the ground it has and Ukraine should accept that and he thinks Russia is to weak to not try again later lol Peter come on
Yeah Hitchens is pathetic in this debate!
@@ThomasDanielsen1000 he’s always so pessimistic of the west so he always seems to have to find fault in anything it does his view is basically let Russia do what it wants as the next leader might be worse he needs to wake up Putin is old we will get a new leader of Russia no matter what and his view that the west has provoked Russia into this while ignoring the sheer avalanche of Russian interference in Ukraine and Eastern Europe even stating it considers pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe Russian but no it’s nato causing the problems
The guy on the right is ignoring the facts leading to the war. It’s as if he believes there is only one side to the argument and there isn’t.
He is a Nazi. They have just one view. Master race.
what facts? expantionism, sphers of influence. But definetly not greed and imperialism right?
Once somebody says "Good vs Evil" is time to stop listening.
Country A (=Russia) invades country B (=Ukraine) without any reason and murders, bombs and destroys at will. If that is not the definition of evil, I don't know what is!
What was that comment Good v Evil. Neither side is good .
There is no moral comparison between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine is a (possible imperfect) democracy, Russia is a bloody dictatorship!
Nice debate - Hitchens won but that's no surprise. A superb debater and superior to his brother.
Indeed, not least as his brother was the poster child of most of the worst policies of the modern era.
His brother was incomparable. Peter doesn’t even have the courtesy of looking at the person he is speaking to and even worse when spoken to..
no comparison....Peter doesn´t have the acerbic wit of his brother but I do like listening to him debate...much respect
If the warmongerer and his ukrainian friends cared as much about atrocities against russians living under the Kiev regime as much as they care about Bucha maybe this war would never have happened.
How do you acknowledge that if the war persists and if Russia falls someone worse then Putin will most likely replace him only to say we should continue to fight until Ukraine wins. I am sure there are better arguments to be made then this.
agreement's mean nothing in this day and age .
Interesting that Cormac quotes warhawks as evidence that to pursue victory over Russia is the right position to take. What a fool!
Good and evil. Who is good and who is evil?
Ukraine and USA is the angel of Christ 😂😂😂😂
The Ukrainians are fighting to survive. Russia is bombing, murdering and raping everthing they pass by. Is it really so hard to see who is good and who is bad?
Ukraine is good, Russia is evil, in this situation. Pretty easy, no?
The bigger country invading the smaller country is evil.
didnt the azoz shell 14.000 civilians in 2014 both side are as bad war is hell all this could of been prevented where are the adults to talk about peace ?
No, they didn't! Don't believe all the Kremlin propaganda you read.
Agreements are made, but history and perceptions change. Nations choose to join NATO. Why? Because Moscow cant and never can be trusted. There isn’t a State within its sphere of influence that is free to develop the way they would choose, without interference from Moscow. Nobody is free to develop, nor progress, nor become prosperous, nor break from its nefarious grip. Ukraine chose unanimously, to do just that and chose to align with Europe. No agreement was going to satisfy Putin and his cronies otherwise. Some people on this site will try and argue otherwise, but you’re just wrong. The question of good and evil for all its exceptions, is true.
Hitchens seems to believe that we should all give-in to bullies, thugs and war criminals just to have peace. That is a ridiculous position.
Does that also apply to Serbia, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq and others?
Please tell me where I said this.
@@peterhitchens4240 You effectively want to force Ukraine to negotiate a peace on the basis of weakness! The Russians are NOT gonna vacate the territories they have occupied, unless they are forced out.
Cormac Smith doesn't seem to understand why this war started.
He's a propogandist and clueless.
The war started due to Putin's imperial ambitions and neglect for neighbouring countries' sovereignty.
I used to admire Peter Hitchens. Used to. I never realised how naive he was. He sounds like Neville Chamberline.
I've lost all respect for Hitchens after he revealed himself as a Kremlin apologist.
You have to wonder why the Ukrainians would choose mult party democracies, a free press, freedom of speech, freedom to congregate, freedom to navigate the seas etc as apposed to the Russian style of government?
The guy on the right is a mouth piece for the US NATO empire
Rather that than being a Kremlin shill like Hitchens!
The guy on the left is a mouthpiece for the russian empire
Surrender now and give the british taxpayer a break
you have no understanding of this at all. The war in ukraine if anything is actually make it better for your taxes.
Russia is not going to give up Crimea. They’d give up the Donbas, but they would not give up Crimea. That’s off the table in any negotiations.
no, Kherson, Donbass and Zaporozhye oblasts are now constitutionaly part of Russia. They would give Donbass if Minsk agreements were implemented
Dont dream Russian will not give up Donbas
A year later. What is the status of Russia's naval bases in Crimea?
You have forgotten what happened in Odessa 2014. And war started in 2014. And people didn't forget how the collective west is changing regimes. That will not happen in Russia
Before the events in Odessa, there were many other events that led to this.
Nice to see a debate on this.
God how I miss Christopher Hitchens. He would wipe the floor with Peter...
Mr Smith disagreed with Peter Hitchens and says that this is the first time that it is a case between good and pure evil. What a lack of understanding Smith has. Very sad. Negotiations are the only way that this terrible conflict will end.
No, this terrible conflict ends when Russia gets its sorry arse out of Ukraine! Is it really so hard to understand?
That Ukraine official is engaging In a very wrong argument and baseless point of view.. Russia has the power to kill Ukraine to the last man or woman is just a matter of how the war play out ,in fact Russia is very gentle in Ukraine war .
So this is a mostly peaceful invasion by Russia?