At least since we did a similar test. LOL. DSPORT Here's what we found www.dsportmag.com/the-tech/rb26dett-building-blocks-which-rb26dett-block-is-right-for-you/
@@hermanurriola138 just a thought. Would you be able to do a test on what kind of hardness other metals and materials test at. I feel like alot of people do not understand that a "270" on your hardness scale doesnt mean it's as hard as diamonds and wont be cracking like glass (I'm exaggerating but you get the point). As a result alot of keyboard warriors (of which I'm sure you've already seen) may start to understand the scope of the information they've read on the internet. Once again. Thanks for sharing. I dont think most people realise just how much time and effort you've put Into testing
Unless you are a credentialed Engineering or you have real experience testing and building competition engines, you should reserve tyour OPINIONS. Herman did a very solid test. Higher hardness means higher compression strength! No way to argue that! His testing shows which block will have the highest compressive strength in the cylinders. That was the intent of his testing. As correctly noted by a slew of Nismo fan boys and self-proclaimed engineers, high hardness also comes with a tradeoff in toughness and tensile strength. Parts of the block under tension MAYBE more subject to failure IF the stress and strain in tension exceeds the mechanical properties of the materials. Why do more 05U blocks crack than N1 blocks? If they are higher in hardness there are more brittle and subject to impact. However, unless you drop a valve in the cylinder or a piece of porcelain off your spark plug, impact resistance is never the issue. Nine times out of ten, engine failure occurs because of bad tuning, low-quality machine work and using crappy parts. Why would an OEM not make the best parts possible? One word: BUDGET! The aftermarket can afford to have a much higher cost per unit than the OEMs. I've built more high-power RB engines in the States than anyone. I'm also a credentialed Mechanical Engineer. www.dsportmag.com/the-cars/the-worlds-most-streetable-8-second-nissan-r33-gt-r-project-rh8/
well said, and yes 05U's break more often than N1's because there are 1000 times more of them out there, we have broken plenty of N1's, that's actually why we set out to work out what makes a block better... Thanks Dsport
@@hermanurriola138 No need to thank us. you did a great test. Haven't used one of those portable hardness testers, but now I'm thinking of getting one. We have the Rockwell tested but it's great having some non-destructive testing devices. We use a special portable hardness tester (for aluminum) on all of the cylinder heads that we do to identify potentially soft heads. We've saved customers thousands of dollars by not having them invest in a soft cylinder head. If you get a chance, try making it out to IDRC's The Shootout presented by Buschur Racing in August of 2019. We'll have a few of our builds there. Hopefully, one of them will be my R33 GT-R. Something is not happy over 1,500 flywheel horsepower right now. Not sure if blocks are twisting, cranks are bending or we are beyond wet-sump oiling capabilities. Looking forward to see your next video on demonstrating block twist.
It's funny some of the issues you come across when building big hp motors out of 20+yr old blocks and cylinder heads with unknown histories. I've used a head on my RB30 that had gone soft and it caused the head to lift under boost as the head stud washer recessed into the head over time. A very unusual problem to come across, was a result of welding the crack that forms under the cam tunnel when an air pocket in the cooling system had caused localised hot spots. Some people do better jobs than others when it comes to repairing cracked heads... 😰
Not exactly. It's more about the material make-up for the N1 which they didn't cover in depth. Heat resistance, heat soak, and heat distribution are different for N1 in some ways. But they didn't cover real-world applications.
No it didn’t. Unless those people are very gullible. N1s have been proven for years on race and streets, and those are facts. Agree with Best Lee Sin NA, they did missed some crucial points here.
Na, metallurgy, manufacturing quality control and the matching rotating assembly means the arbee’s sporting these things from factory can handle some pretty impressive power levels and the sort of power delivery you want for (narrator says exactly what im about to type lol) sport street/circut racing. And can handle the physical demands of the repeated high stress life that a race car engine is subjected too, and needs to be able to tolerate over a decent amount of time. A harder/brittle block just wont compare over the span of a championship season. Unless its too over engineered- carrying too much unnecessary mass around with you. The block is just a link in the chain. If you get the formula wrong cause your 1000hp+ build requires components much heavier and with much higher losses, then yea, ya prob wasting monies better spent elsewhere. Horses for courses
Buy a Platinum brace instead. That is what this video is really all about. Did you not see subtle reminders through out the video? Was done in a clever way.
Man you guys have the best videos on RB’s and GTR’s hands down. I really appreciate all the content also this video helped a lot thanks for all the knowledge! Hope u do a video on 26 vs 25 heads
man, this is a heartbreaker.. i was thinking i had something special with my '23U' but Herman's tests prove it to be no better than a garden variety '05U' and neither one of these are any less than an N1.. they're all the same after all. wow!
E85 is not the determining factor for oil squirters fuel doesn't cool your wrist pin or bores GM tested this heavily for the c6 Zr1 the temperatures are pretty high there if you do nothing about it service life is significantly different.
what would be interesting would be to manufacture a billet rb20 block to solve the breakage problem and take the rb20det engines to 1000-1200 horsepower, being the engine block reliable and strong,burn less fuel and at the same time make it a powerful engine, optimal for driving on public roads.
Great video Andrew and thanks Herman for taking the time to do it. I would have really liked to know how the rb20det faired against the rest. Thanks again.
Herman, thank you so much for taking the time to do all these testings and sharing it with us. Your video definitely helps clarify a ton of misinformation and rumors that for decades have been floating around, but there's nothing better than to prove with empirical data the real science behind it all. One question that I've always had, is have you ever compared the RB25DE, vs RB25DET RWD vs RB25DET AWD blocks head to head? Maybe the RB25DE & RB25DET RWD blocks are identical, however I've always wondered if the RB25DET AWD is beefier compared to the RWD.
🤔 I used to think the rb26 would be best to build but now I would actually build a rb25 an just pick up a spare long block when the 800 horsepurs escape all over the engine bay 😂
ONLY if its an ET block. The E block is weak, but you can fix that of course. But the turbo rods are way stronger. Quite a rare engine now. The gearbox was really strong too.
There hasnt been many bmw blocks pushed to the weaknesses of the block yet. I heard from a shop that late model bmws are beings pushed farther and are reliable blocks so far. The Lamborghini blocks hold 2500 or so. They just started using billet blocks in the half mile stuff. I saw a bmw promod, bmw engine high sixes low seven's on 1320video
Cutting the block can tell you thickness for a 24U block but what you're also missing is sending a sample of the block to a metallurgical lab to give you mechanical data on it.
have done, we know what materials are used, and under metallurgist advice ... just check hardness, nothing else matters, but we will post more results, also destructive testing is interesting :)
Herman Urriola hardness at room temp is useless at a dynamic stand point and the reason the N1 block isn’t as hard is because cast iron falls prey to work hardnening which is what cracks things.
Excellent testing but it is worth noting the hardness might change over time and heat cycling. it wouldn’t be unreasonable to suggest the newer N1 blocks might be softer as a result of the virgin steel and lack of heat cycling, further more the thermal properties of the steel have yet to be tested there may well be a significant change in hardness malleability and tensile strength under various conditions.
Love these guys. But there are some points missed here and not explained much about the already tried and tested N1 blocks. One example is its metallurgy. I saw a detailed comparo years ago on a JDM magazine, it covered its metal contents, on different temps. also. If I could just only find it again.
Alright so we see that they have casting irregularities, would darton sleeving them be able to fix some of that and make the engine “stronger” in the sense that it has better material for the cylinder walls and now has better thickness so as to help avoid the cracks in the cylinder walls? Also the BRAND NEW rb26 blocks, how do those compre va the older blocks? I would imagine same issues but maybe more brittle as they might use different blend compared to the originals?
I am interested in replacing the Rb25det in my GTS with a Rb26dett, de-stroked to 2.5L, keeping the 26 head and possibly the low mount twin turbo setup. The aim is to build a good time trial / targa car so pwr only needs to be around 280kw - 320kw with the emphasis instead on mid range throttle response and spool time (can already hear ppl saying “well keep the 26 displacement”) Can’t find any info on destroking a 26 to 25
Interesting initial overview. The rebound test should be conducted on a horizontal surface if possible as the rebound is affected by gravity. A vickers or brinell hardness test would be preferable. To draw any conclusions about the metallurgy before sending samples to the lab would be premature. Castings more than anything are subject to large and inconsistent metal grain size and distribution and depending on heat treatment process will often present with different hardness out of the same batch. Harness can also vary in different areas of any one item due to any irregularities and variation in the heat treatment and cooling process. Defects such as cold shuts, laps and micro cracking are also very common and internal flaws are not located unless radiographed or flaw tested with ultrasonics at low frequencies to penetrate through the coarser grain structure of the casting.
teamneverlost Herman normally does then standing up but we wanted to be able to film it well on the bench. Doing them all horizontal make the results perfectly comparable. Horizontal vs vertical is under 5 points.
Would you consider showing the same test for multiple varieties of Japanese motors? I would like to see the VG And VQ motors tested, the 4g motors and maybe compare them against the Honda motors. EJ motors would be a great video too. This video put a bunch of keyboard warriors in their places. Great job guys. I love it.
Can anyone tell me. If I chose to use the RD28 block. And kept the factory diameter pistons. But put better pistons in for petrol performance use. Will an RB25 (after head stud holes bores to suit 12mm) or RB30 Head bolt on after the coolant and oil gallery mods? I'm asking is there an issue with the Combustion chamber overlap? Thanks in advance
@Herman Urriola Making a guess, N1 block may have been blueprinted from a normal block, good for circuit racing where big big power is not the ultimate goal. How they been compared against other blocks for total geometric state of the block?
why don't you have tested the rb20det! i know the head suck! but i'm sure the block is killin'em all so much material between each cylinder. and every rb crank fit any rb block but the con rods are different
Best course of action on some of those seem like they'd be better candidates for sleeving than even using them as is. Wonder how the RB20 stacks up compared to all the 25 up to 30 ones
Personally in the market for an R34 GT-V Four. That has a NA RB25 Neo. Might swap it down the line for an RB25DET Neo. Since it's 4WD how can I prepare the block for that?
From what i remember official Nissan word on the N1 block is that is has thicker walls, like an RD block..maybe you can just measure it or weight them to compare?
Mad respect for this man. ( coming from a welder who does ndi tests on welds with powder, xray, and magnets) however i was kinda confused about the test of the rd 28 block considering the results you got on hardness. I agree that the resizing the bore on the RD probably isnt the best idea but everyone is free to do what they want. Cheers mate hope to see more videos from you
I think it is more about the offset of the notes if you were to review to 3.0litre pistons. Due to being weaker block material, the thinner wall would suffer compaired to the 3.0L with it's stronger block material
Herman Urriola - Would love to hear more on about the N1 blocks in real world practice. Are they more prone to failure from cracking? From my uni days, the last time I did fracture testing, I was under the impression the harder a cast item is, the more likely they are to crack? The softer the alloy, the more give they have to take flex?
I'm no engineer or expert. But from my knowledge it's a balancing act to get the hardness to take the stress but still having enough flex to not crack. Harder blocks are better but too hard and they will be prone to crack under high pressure.
Can you guys please help us BMW guys and do the tests on BMWs M50 and it's different variations, I can't find any information on this Or if you can be kind enough to point me in the right direction to find info on this.😁
Great vid publicly showing what a few of us have been doing, only criticism is the proper thrust face that you really need to worry about is not on the hot side, but on the inlet side, thats where the power stroke force is, never the less nice to show the comparisons between the block designs which i never have known.
Haha Peter, you picked it, realised that after testing as the blocks were all arse about from how I usually test them, we didn't realise till after but it was too late
@@hermanurriola138 Thought so, was probably the pressure of having the camera on you and trying to get it right at the same time, somethings always going to go wrong no matter how hard you try. :) Still , walked away from it learning a fair bit, i never knew the finer differences, great work mate.
@@YoBoyNero If you are talking about the comparison video between the 2JZ and RB, it was released a day after this video and my comment. But yes, overbuilt full tilt.
What about cryo treatment on the this blocks? Ik the newer blocks are worse but would crudo treatment help those get close enough to the older blocks? Would it even help the older blocks to get cryo treated? What about wpc treating them? Would that help in anyway with the oiling?
@Herman Urriola can you say from your experience with rb blocks if a block that may be too thin in a particular cylinder bore can still be used in high power build successfully if the block is completely cement filled. Also is there any benifit to a street driven build going with a half filled block or do you prefer a fully filled block instead with oil cooler larger capacity sump etc. seeing that most of the cylinder pressure is at the top half of the block.
This vid is excellent, the other confusion I hear with RB's is with the different heads, is there a comparison vid in this style of testing for each head option, also technical reasoning for different head/block combos, like putting a RB26 head on a RB30 & so on
Oh awesome, good to know, hope to see that vid & many like it, no doubt many would like to see other engines tested with suck scrutiny eg barra's & LS's, and even 4bangers etc
One thing that wasn’t considered thoroughly enough, in my opinion is the differences in the blocks harmonics. Im guessing the N1 and unicorn blocks have substantially different harmonic properties. Probably to allow the engine to maintain revs at a much closer parameter (to the harmonic properties of the Rb block design’s, natural resonant frequency.) to the blocks inherent and destructive rpm range / resonant frequency. I’m guessing standard rb25/26 have a rev range around 9500 where the destructive harmonics lay and the upgraded blocks move this range either, up towards the high 10,000 a low 11,000 rpm range, or lower towards the 7000rpm range where the engine can be managed to pass through this rpm range as quickly as possible.
Its is some of the best information i have ever seen on the RB's. Data is key to development not the verbal diarrhea that comes out of peoples mouths. Cheers Andrew
not sure, but why the N1 block is mounted on an engine stand, will it impact the testing, as we are doing frequency tests? Studs are holding 66KG, that is almost a bonded connection. I preffer if the sonic test is done while the block is on the bench.
inconsequential, I like where you are going with it, but it makes little or no difference, i have tested all scenarios, different story if the engine has a head on it.
I am wondering you may want a softer iron block than a harder one, as harder iron tends to crack more. The fact that both N1 and RD28 are softer than the rest may not be just coincidental.
a softer block allows more twist and ballooning of the bores, overall it work hardens in particular spots causing fault lines so to speak, an overall harder block is stiffer and is less prone to cracking
Is that 256 the natural frequency (first or second modal) we are reading on that device? And if yes, how we do relate it to an ultimate tensile strength?
Thanks so much for the video. Never thought of using Sonic testers to test cylinder thickness. By any chance have you tested the 1uz block at all. It's rumored to have not enough meat to over bore much. Wondering how true this is.
in terms of an offset bore, how do you then center the con rod to the new offset pattern with the cranks having that non offset to it? I'm just confused
I'm curious how "hard" a L28 block is and even an early L24 just to complete the picture of Nissan inline six blocks over the last 4 decades. I'm also wondering if a block that's been overheated to 300 degrees F changes it's hardness. I've been running an engine that went up to 329 degrees for the last 9 years and it's working great.
Herman & Motive DVD thank you. This makes me think twice about choosing an engine builder. Might just be worth to send overseas to get built. Also any SR & 4G63 data ?
Nothing hurts more than being soft and not enough thickness. Story of my life...
simp
Hope one day you can get that choad you've always wanted.
jon doe except another 2jz!
@@nobodyhere4860 ford barra will eat the 2jz
@@j.e.d.8065 your absolutely right, but nothing better than a Ford doesn't quite have the same ring to it!
Best informational video to come out on rb's since ever
Thank you! we are trying to make a difference, appreciate the comment :)
I wouldn't take it as gospel
At least since we did a similar test. LOL. DSPORT Here's what we found www.dsportmag.com/the-tech/rb26dett-building-blocks-which-rb26dett-block-is-right-for-you/
@@dsport subed
@@hermanurriola138 just a thought. Would you be able to do a test on what kind of hardness other metals and materials test at. I feel like alot of people do not understand that a "270" on your hardness scale doesnt mean it's as hard as diamonds and wont be cracking like glass (I'm exaggerating but you get the point).
As a result alot of keyboard warriors (of which I'm sure you've already seen) may start to understand the scope of the information they've read on the internet. Once again. Thanks for sharing. I dont think most people realise just how much time and effort you've put Into testing
Thank you Herman for taking the initiative to do something like this! Platinum is at the cutting edge of RB development
Thanks man :)
Unless you are a credentialed Engineering or you have real experience testing and building competition engines, you should reserve tyour OPINIONS. Herman did a very solid test. Higher hardness means higher compression strength! No way to argue that! His testing shows which block will have the highest compressive strength in the cylinders. That was the intent of his testing. As correctly noted by a slew of Nismo fan boys and self-proclaimed engineers, high hardness also comes with a tradeoff in toughness and tensile strength. Parts of the block under tension MAYBE more subject to failure IF the stress and strain in tension exceeds the mechanical properties of the materials. Why do more 05U blocks crack than N1 blocks? If they are higher in hardness there are more brittle and subject to impact. However, unless you drop a valve in the cylinder or a piece of porcelain off your spark plug, impact resistance is never the issue. Nine times out of ten, engine failure occurs because of bad tuning, low-quality machine work and using crappy parts. Why would an OEM not make the best parts possible? One word: BUDGET! The aftermarket can afford to have a much higher cost per unit than the OEMs. I've built more high-power RB engines in the States than anyone. I'm also a credentialed Mechanical Engineer. www.dsportmag.com/the-cars/the-worlds-most-streetable-8-second-nissan-r33-gt-r-project-rh8/
well said, and yes 05U's break more often than N1's because there are 1000 times more of them out there, we have broken plenty of N1's, that's actually why we set out to work out what makes a block better...
Thanks Dsport
@@hermanurriola138 No need to thank us. you did a great test. Haven't used one of those portable hardness testers, but now I'm thinking of getting one. We have the Rockwell tested but it's great having some non-destructive testing devices. We use a special portable hardness tester (for aluminum) on all of the cylinder heads that we do to identify potentially soft heads. We've saved customers thousands of dollars by not having them invest in a soft cylinder head. If you get a chance, try making it out to IDRC's The Shootout presented by Buschur Racing in August of 2019. We'll have a few of our builds there. Hopefully, one of them will be my R33 GT-R. Something is not happy over 1,500 flywheel horsepower right now. Not sure if blocks are twisting, cranks are bending or we are beyond wet-sump oiling capabilities. Looking forward to see your next video on demonstrating block twist.
Indeed, a simple device to show you a difference that does not take a long time to do = good for the camera.
I like how you think someone needs to be an engineering grad to be able to speak you're an elitist pleb that probably isn't one.
It's funny some of the issues you come across when building big hp motors out of 20+yr old blocks and cylinder heads with unknown histories. I've used a head on my RB30 that had gone soft and it caused the head to lift under boost as the head stud washer recessed into the head over time. A very unusual problem to come across, was a result of welding the crack that forms under the cam tunnel when an air pocket in the cooling system had caused localised hot spots. Some people do better jobs than others when it comes to repairing cracked heads... 😰
Thats cool. Over priced N1 block is the same as a RB25 block. Must piss people off.
Not exactly. It's more about the material make-up for the N1 which they didn't cover in depth. Heat resistance, heat soak, and heat distribution are different for N1 in some ways. But they didn't cover real-world applications.
No it didn’t. Unless those people are very gullible. N1s have been proven for years on race and streets, and those are facts. Agree with Best Lee Sin NA, they did missed some crucial points here.
The N1 is supposed to be the oil leak improvement together with newer material. Dunno about the details though...
Na, metallurgy, manufacturing quality control and the matching rotating assembly means the arbee’s sporting these things from factory can handle some pretty impressive power levels and the sort of power delivery you want for (narrator says exactly what im about to type lol) sport street/circut racing. And can handle the physical demands of the repeated high stress life that a race car engine is subjected too, and needs to be able to tolerate over a decent amount of time. A harder/brittle block just wont compare over the span of a championship season. Unless its too over engineered- carrying too much unnecessary mass around with you.
The block is just a link in the chain. If you get the formula wrong cause your 1000hp+ build requires components much heavier and with much higher losses, then yea, ya prob wasting monies better spent elsewhere. Horses for courses
Did you even watch the video or know anything about either of those cars?!?
Cool video! Wish they tested the RB20. Wonder if it shares the same casting as the other engines. The 78mm bore would be the one with thicker walls
Hi. Can you help me? I need information about pistons rb20det.
@@РодригоЛеон ya what u need?
I'm guessing there are going to be quite alot of n1 blocks for sale real soon :D
Thanks for taking the time and effort for making this vid MotiveDVD!
Especially at 7K
OnkelSvenne yep, I’ve got one for sale...7,001 firm.
Buy a Platinum brace instead. That is what this video is really all about. Did you not see subtle reminders through out the video? Was done in a clever way.
Another conspiracy theorist
not really. this video won't get popularized like that.
Man you guys have the best videos on RB’s and GTR’s hands down. I really appreciate all the content also this video helped a lot thanks for all the knowledge! Hope u do a video on 26 vs 25 heads
That 66.6 kilo block though....
The Devil's Heart.
Lol i was thinking the same thing.
man, this is a heartbreaker.. i was thinking i had something special with my '23U' but Herman's tests prove it to be no better than a garden variety '05U' and neither one of these are any less than an N1.. they're all the same after all. wow!
Rb30/25 💪
Clutch Kick Junkies Ayyyyy CKJ gang
This man has broken so many hearts.
This channel is the holy grail for English speaking rb nerds. You guys are doing God’s work
Awesome video guys👍 Nothing beats facts and scientific testing. You are unquestionable the best resource for Skyline and RB content on TH-cam😀
E85 is not the determining factor for oil squirters fuel doesn't cool your wrist pin or bores GM tested this heavily for the c6 Zr1 the temperatures are pretty high there if you do nothing about it service life is significantly different.
Thanks for clearing the myths in the internet cause forums are a joke. 👌
Kenny_Fa5 exactly brother
Amen
Great video guys 👍
before watching im going to assume its rb30 and or rd28
Can u please inform me on what an rd28 is, where it comes from, and it's specs??? Would really appreciate it. :)
30 is just a better 26
2jz mflc its a diesel 2.8liter came in patrols, the GU. Is basically the identical twin to the rb30e. From what I understand anyway
@@2jzmflc188 they came in patrols and laurels
Would be nice if you guys cn do the same video for 4g63 engines
Then the answer would be the vr4 4g63.
thankyou , there is nothing i appreciate more then 100% real data. keep up the good work gentlemen.
26/30 combo 👌🏻
This was just flawless. I appreciate when guys put in work like this for the culture
what would be interesting would be to manufacture a billet rb20 block to solve the breakage problem and take the rb20det engines to 1000-1200 horsepower, being the engine block reliable and strong,burn less fuel and at the same time make it a powerful engine, optimal for driving on public roads.
Great video Andrew and thanks Herman for taking the time to do it.
I would have really liked to know how the rb20det faired against the rest.
Thanks again.
The sonic testing part was BADASS! Definitely haven't seen many of these tests done and posted on TH-cam.
Herman, thank you so much for taking the time to do all these testings and sharing it with us. Your video definitely helps clarify a ton of misinformation and rumors that for decades have been floating around, but there's nothing better than to prove with empirical data the real science behind it all.
One question that I've always had, is have you ever compared the RB25DE, vs RB25DET RWD vs RB25DET AWD blocks head to head? Maybe the RB25DE & RB25DET RWD blocks are identical, however I've always wondered if the RB25DET AWD is beefier compared to the RWD.
🤔 I used to think the rb26 would be best to build but now I would actually build a rb25 an just pick up a spare long block when the 800 horsepurs escape all over the engine bay 😂
Mo power baby 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
Id be curious to see a test that compares bmw inline 6s.
same id love to see an n54 for comparison.
nice vid, wish they included rb20 testing
Rb20 will max out on power long before the block becomes an issue
@@zyoungson215 yea wanted to see how they comp data wise over 25/26/30/28 thickness etc..
Also interested as RB20s are older just like the 30 so maybe it has the same hardness and smaller bores may mean more material
stay tuned. its coming
@@MotiveVideo great!
Ahh B 30 block with an ahh b 26 head
ONLY if its an ET block. The E block is weak, but you can fix that of course. But the turbo rods are way stronger. Quite a rare engine now. The gearbox was really strong too.
now after all that, bring on the 2jz block and tell us why it's supposed to be better.
done man, vid will be out soon, we tested them the same day
@@hermanurriola138 fuck yeah mayne
@@hermanurriola138 Do German blocks test better? Like Mercedes or BMW blocks. Never heard about a block failure in them.
There hasnt been many bmw blocks pushed to the weaknesses of the block yet. I heard from a shop that late model bmws are beings pushed farther and are reliable blocks so far. The Lamborghini blocks hold 2500 or so. They just started using billet blocks in the half mile stuff. I saw a bmw promod, bmw engine high sixes low seven's on 1320video
taz 4100 they don’t hold 2500 there are already billet blocks for the Audi v10 in them.
Cutting the block can tell you thickness for a 24U block but what you're also missing is sending a sample of the block to a metallurgical lab to give you mechanical data on it.
have done, we know what materials are used, and under metallurgist advice ... just check hardness, nothing else matters, but we will post more results, also destructive testing is interesting :)
Herman Urriola hardness at room temp is useless at a dynamic stand point and the reason the N1 block isn’t as hard is because cast iron falls prey to work hardnening which is what cracks things.
@@hermanurriola138 Herman have you ever or will you ever consider any 1JZ and 2JZ testing and comparisons?
Excellent testing but it is worth noting the hardness might change over time and heat cycling. it wouldn’t be unreasonable to suggest the newer N1 blocks might be softer as a result of the virgin steel and lack of heat cycling, further more the thermal properties of the steel have yet to be tested there may well be a significant change in hardness malleability and tensile strength under various conditions.
Love these guys. But there are some points missed here and not explained much about the already tried and tested N1 blocks. One example is its metallurgy. I saw a detailed comparo years ago on a JDM magazine, it covered its metal contents, on different temps. also. If I could just only find it again.
RB20 Block is king baby.
I watched 15 minutes of this and he mentions nothing about a rb20det 😂
@@jeremyhare9515 Here you go ya bum. th-cam.com/video/3CfFDK-Eijw/w-d-xo.html
Herman I really do appreciate all your hard efforts in going above & beyond for all this information.
Alright so we see that they have casting irregularities, would darton sleeving them be able to fix some of that and make the engine “stronger” in the sense that it has better material for the cylinder walls and now has better thickness so as to help avoid the cracks in the cylinder walls? Also the BRAND NEW rb26 blocks, how do those compre va the older blocks? I would imagine same issues but maybe more brittle as they might use different blend compared to the originals?
rd 28 is a diesel engine block so will be stronger
would love if these tests include the rb20 as well. RB20E, RB20ET, RB20DE and RB20DET
Hi. Can you help me? I need information about pistons rb20det
@user-zi9zv9kx3s I would love to help you but it seems my replies to you keeps getting deleted. I'm sorry friend.
@@РодригоЛеон rb20det motor enthusiasts
@@РодригоЛеон what info do you need?
@@РодригоЛеон tell me what you need
What unit is he measuring block hardness in? Is there some widespread standard that engine builders consult?
I am interested in replacing the Rb25det in my GTS with a Rb26dett, de-stroked to 2.5L, keeping the 26 head and possibly the low mount twin turbo setup. The aim is to build a good time trial / targa car so pwr only needs to be around 280kw - 320kw with the emphasis instead on mid range throttle response and spool time (can already hear ppl saying “well keep the 26 displacement”)
Can’t find any info on destroking a 26 to 25
SR20DET comparison like this including RNN14 54C Version would be great...
Interesting initial overview. The rebound test should be conducted on a horizontal surface if possible as the rebound is affected by gravity. A vickers or brinell hardness test would be preferable. To draw any conclusions about the metallurgy before sending samples to the lab would be premature. Castings more than anything are subject to large and inconsistent metal grain size and distribution and depending on heat treatment process will often present with different hardness out of the same batch. Harness can also vary in different areas of any one item due to any irregularities and variation in the heat treatment and cooling process. Defects such as cold shuts, laps and micro cracking are also very common and internal flaws are not located unless radiographed or flaw tested with ultrasonics at low frequencies to penetrate through the coarser grain structure of the casting.
teamneverlost Herman normally does then standing up but we wanted to be able to film it well on the bench. Doing them all horizontal make the results perfectly comparable. Horizontal vs vertical is under 5 points.
Can you please do this on the ej blocks? Pretty please!!!
Great idea - wonder if Herman has a forty foot pole....
No point. Its an ej. Gonna blow up regardless
Just stick to a ej20. Closed deck. Ej25s were open deck hence why they couldn’t handle power as much as the ej20
Would you consider showing the same test for multiple varieties of Japanese motors? I would like to see the VG And VQ motors tested, the 4g motors and maybe compare them against the Honda motors. EJ motors would be a great video too. This video put a bunch of keyboard warriors in their places. Great job guys. I love it.
Can anyone tell me.
If I chose to use the RD28 block.
And kept the factory diameter pistons.
But put better pistons in for petrol performance use.
Will an RB25 (after head stud holes bores to suit 12mm) or RB30 Head bolt on after the coolant and oil gallery mods?
I'm asking is there an issue with the Combustion chamber overlap?
Thanks in advance
Great video explaining great facts and testing methodology. I've never knew that could be a way to test engine blocks... rb30 ftw
@Herman Urriola Making a guess, N1 block may have been blueprinted from a normal block, good for circuit racing where big big power is not the ultimate goal. How they been compared against other blocks for total geometric state of the block?
Awesome information especially for us in the US. Who are just getting real deal access to these blocks nowadays
why don't you have tested the rb20det! i know the head suck! but i'm sure the block is killin'em all so much material between each cylinder. and every rb crank fit any rb block but the con rods are different
Didn't they say all the bores are 86mm except for the rd? The change in capacity comes from the deck height
@@cheeseyl67 that and custom pistons.
rb20det pistons have a 78mm bore
Lol almost everything you just said is wrong, cranks are not interchangeable. And you should learn how to speak English.
@@rickphillips7221 Who made you the king of England? rude
Best course of action on some of those seem like they'd be better candidates for sleeving than even using them as is.
Wonder how the RB20 stacks up compared to all the 25 up to 30 ones
Was keen to see how the rb20 would compare against the big boys but again no information on the rb20 :(
Personally in the market for an R34 GT-V Four. That has a NA RB25 Neo. Might swap it down the line for an RB25DET Neo. Since it's 4WD how can I prepare the block for that?
Thankyou heaps for this video Andrew and Herman, got an rb25 block here I’m gonna throw a 26 head on
Great info. Am a fanboy of any iron block straight 6. A good balanced and strong by nature motor.
What an awesome video, I love all RBs 👍🏻 thanks Herman and Andrew for a killer vid with bulk facts 🍻
Thanks buddy, and welcome
is there going to be a video about a billet RB block? as it is the most expensife option im curious how much of an improvement it is.
maybe, we can twist test them, but sonic and hardness testing is irrelevant as they are dissimilar metals, they behave very differently
From what i remember official Nissan word on the N1 block is that is has thicker walls, like an RD block..maybe you can just measure it or weight them to compare?
ok he did in the rest of the video:p
Mad respect for this man. ( coming from a welder who does ndi tests on welds with powder, xray, and magnets) however i was kinda confused about the test of the rd 28 block considering the results you got on hardness. I agree that the resizing the bore on the RD probably isnt the best idea but everyone is free to do what they want. Cheers mate hope to see more videos from you
I think it is more about the offset of the notes if you were to review to 3.0litre pistons.
Due to being weaker block material, the thinner wall would suffer compaired to the 3.0L with it's stronger block material
Herman Urriola - Would love to hear more on about the N1 blocks in real world practice. Are they more prone to failure from cracking? From my uni days, the last time I did fracture testing, I was under the impression the harder a cast item is, the more likely they are to crack? The softer the alloy, the more give they have to take flex?
I'm no engineer or expert. But from my knowledge it's a balancing act to get the hardness to take the stress but still having enough flex to not crack. Harder blocks are better but too hard and they will be prone to crack under high pressure.
Would be awesome to see a billet block thrown in the mix just too see another comparison!
Incredible info, testing parameters, and results.
RB25det by a mile.
nope
Yep
@@travisauhouseclark6097 did you watch the video? lol
Lol no torque
@@matthewallison7604 No torque? Tell that all the LS1's these obliterated in the day.
Can you guys please help us BMW guys and do the tests on BMWs M50 and it's different variations, I can't find any information on this
Or if you can be kind enough to point me in the right direction to find info on this.😁
I love GTRs and one day I will get one. I learned so much in this video than I have ever since i heard about a GTR. Great job guys awesome video.
Great vid publicly showing what a few of us have been doing, only criticism is the proper thrust face that you really need to worry about is not on the hot side, but on the inlet side, thats where the power stroke force is, never the less nice to show the comparisons between the block designs which i never have known.
Haha Peter, you picked it, realised that after testing as the blocks were all arse about from how I usually test them, we didn't realise till after but it was too late
@@hermanurriola138 Thought so, was probably the pressure of having the camera on you and trying to get it right at the same time, somethings always going to go wrong no matter how hard you try. :) Still , walked away from it learning a fair bit, i never knew the finer differences, great work mate.
@@pt6868 yes i am a little camera shy, and this took around 12 hours or something so we were not going to do it again :) thanks my friend
Funny how most did not pick it up but discuss other little things.
*Would love to know how these compare to the 2JZ-GTE block*
I'm pretty sure they already did and it shows how overbuilt the 2JZ block actually is from factory Toyota went full send when they designed the 2JZ
@@YoBoyNero If you are talking about the comparison video between the 2JZ and RB, it was released a day after this video and my comment. But yes, overbuilt full tilt.
I wonder if the measuring device is effected when one places the instrument on the object being tested along with their hand just a question?
What about cryo treatment on the this blocks? Ik the newer blocks are worse but would crudo treatment help those get close enough to the older blocks? Would it even help the older blocks to get cryo treated? What about wpc treating them? Would that help in anyway with the oiling?
@Herman Urriola can you say from your experience with rb blocks if a block that may be too thin in a particular cylinder bore can still be used in high power build successfully if the block is completely cement filled. Also is there any benifit to a street driven build going with a half filled block or do you prefer a fully filled block instead with oil cooler larger capacity sump etc. seeing that most of the cylinder pressure is at the top half of the block.
This vid is excellent, the other confusion I hear with RB's is with the different heads, is there a comparison vid in this style of testing for each head option, also technical reasoning for different head/block combos, like putting a RB26 head on a RB30 & so on
Jub Threesixnine RB26 Head is best but we may look at that video option if we can get what we need to do it
Oh awesome,
good to know,
hope to see that vid & many like it, no doubt many would like to see other engines tested with suck scrutiny eg barra's & LS's, and even 4bangers etc
One thing that wasn’t considered thoroughly enough, in my opinion is the differences in the blocks harmonics. Im guessing the N1 and unicorn blocks have substantially different harmonic properties. Probably to allow the engine to maintain revs at a much closer parameter (to the harmonic properties of the Rb block design’s, natural resonant frequency.) to the blocks inherent and destructive rpm range / resonant frequency.
I’m guessing standard rb25/26 have a rev range around 9500 where the destructive harmonics lay and the upgraded blocks move this range either, up towards the high 10,000 a low 11,000 rpm range, or lower towards the 7000rpm range where the engine can be managed to pass through this rpm range as quickly as possible.
Have you done any comparison with the rb block and nissan tb48 blocks with strength and power apart from the obvious capability differences.
How do these compare to a Chev, Ford or Holden V8 block?
PISTONS AND CONNECTIONS RODS DO RB30 FIT INTO RD28? I WAS THINKING ABOUT MOUNTING A RB28 (RB26 HEAD AND BLOCK RD28)
20e by miles
Its is some of the best information i have ever seen on the RB's. Data is key to development not the verbal diarrhea that comes out of peoples mouths. Cheers Andrew
Hey, great vid again. But when Herman is talking from about 6-7 mins in, the music makes it a bit hard to hear him.
Music levels are a constant problem on motive vids
I could hear him just fine, but i see no reason to have background music in a tech video.
I would love to see the same test's done to a BILLET block. If it's really worth the "extra" buck!
not sure, but why the N1 block is mounted on an engine stand, will it impact the testing, as we are doing frequency tests? Studs are holding 66KG, that is almost a bonded connection. I preffer if the sonic test is done while the block is on the bench.
inconsequential, I like where you are going with it, but it makes little or no difference, i have tested all scenarios, different story if the engine has a head on it.
What do you think of the 75t block how do u tap into it for a turbo if it don't have the plugs
could you cryo the engine blocks?
I am wondering you may want a softer iron block than a harder one, as harder iron tends to crack more. The fact that both N1 and RD28 are softer than the rest may not be just coincidental.
a softer block allows more twist and ballooning of the bores, overall it work hardens in particular spots causing fault lines so to speak, an overall harder block is stiffer and is less prone to cracking
Is that 256 the natural frequency (first or second modal) we are reading on that device? And if yes, how we do relate it to an ultimate tensile strength?
شكرا معلم أنا عندي مشكل زيت يتسرب الا الماء
Thanks so much for the video. Never thought of using Sonic testers to test cylinder thickness.
By any chance have you tested the 1uz block at all. It's rumored to have not enough meat to over bore much. Wondering how true this is.
Thank you very much for this video
in terms of an offset bore, how do you then center the con rod to the new offset pattern with the cranks having that non offset to it? I'm just confused
I appreciate your search & time you guys put in, great job, how about a quick comparison with 2jz?
Being edited right now
And the deck on an after market sbc is always around 12mm to 13mm or 1/2 inch... so good!!
So rb30 sounds all round cost to numbers ratio. But i would like to know something. Is the rd28 cheaper to buy than the others or more expensive?
I'm curious how "hard" a L28 block is and even an early L24 just to complete the picture of Nissan inline six blocks over the last 4 decades.
I'm also wondering if a block that's been overheated to 300 degrees F changes it's hardness. I've been running an engine that went up to 329 degrees for the last 9 years and it's working great.
Have any shop done the RD28 with RB26 head combo? Have some RD blocks laying around here and would love to know where to get pistons and rod for this
Herman & Motive DVD thank you. This makes me think twice about choosing an engine builder. Might just be worth to send overseas to get built. Also any SR & 4G63 data ?
welcome, and the SR is cast alloy with a liner, so bore thickness and hardness cant be compared to the cast iron rb block
I can see the reason he’s knocking the N1 block, but would the water galleries have any benefit for circuit racing?
Can yall test the new heritage blocks they just introduced to see if the new castings are better?
Bloody hell i love this so much i have learnt so much
JP Vlogs do not believe everything they tell you. They want to sell products Motive are getting paid for it.
Isn't it good that an after market sbc block can be bored 5mm more than stock and still have more than 5mm left!!! So good!!
Have you tried comparing them to the Toyota 2JZ Block?
th-cam.com/video/qSdeW3e1Vjw/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/FHSvVIkxPB4/w-d-xo.html
Now THIS is a great comparison video. Proper detail!