Important: Everything about Notre-Dame is miraculous and a whitepill, from its original construction to the way that its most precious treasures were somehow spared in the 2019 fire (and the fact it didn't utterly collapse) to the way that the secular and currently totally non-functional French government shepherded a rebuilding process that drew on the depth and height of the remaining genius of medieval craftsmanship right at a moment when it would seem poised to be lost forever, and did so in record time. Any "unfortunate" aesthetic choices (incongruous altar, over-bright lighting) are of the rather superficial sort that can be easily reversed in a generation or two once a certain tendency has worked its way fully out of the system. On the scale of choices that will matter in another 1,000 years, the good guys won. GLORY TO GOD.
It is also worth noting that the Arch bishop had a huge fight to keep the church the way it was as in France it is the state & not the Catholic Church that owns the buildings. I think he did an amazing job to keep so much only giving way in the altar & vestments (horrible) which can easily be changed in the future.
At the end of the whole restoration project, the French state told the archbishop "here are the keys to your church, you can have them back." And the archbishop said something like "I never lost the keys!" I'm hearing this second, or third hand, so who knows how all of that went down. But, the archbishop was pretty firm in his authority over the church.
@@St.MartinofToursPrayToGodForUs the way I heard the story is that Macron wnated to do all kinds of ceremonies inside the church to puff his ego, one of them being the "handing back the keys" to the Arbishop. He said no to that, with those words: I never lost the keys.
Thank you for this analysis and bringing this to light. I'm just a 25-year-old Floridian, newly married construction worker: when I first saw the altar, I was immediately struck by its odd existence within the space
To me, this new altar looks like one that would be used in the worship of Satan. There is nothing about it to indicate that it is consecrated to Christian worship or to the offering of the Holy Mass.
They understand everything, this rebuilding of the temple heralds the antichrists finally taking full control of the world in the Vatican Jubilee year.
So in France it is the state that owns the churches & I think the bishop did well to limit the modernism to the free standing altar & vestments things that can be easily changed in the future
Da Vinci said that an oval shape in a picture stands out of its own accord. This altar is half an oval ... with the same effect. It stands out because of its shape and also, in its minimalism, there is no resonance between it and the rest of the architecture. It is like a blot that draws the eye, while at the same time the eye wants to repudiate it. It makes for uneasy viewing-one is not invited into worship but irritated into an intellectual itchiness.
This style is becoming popular in lots of old traditionally designed and decorated Catholic Churches - not the shape necessarily, but the style (check out the new altar in the Gesu in Rome which is square, but you'll still hate it). It's a representation of the fashion of modern Western Europe. They see fashion as a genuine expression of the culture. And they see the altar style as representing the people. It's like saying "We aren't those superstitious old-fashioned people we once were, full of embarrassing notions of crusades and colonies... We are a refined people now, able to see beauty in geometric perfection and skill in modern building techniques. So our altar will be represent that." It's sad, really. I don't know any Catholic who goes to Church on Sundays who likes this direction. The sense of the faithful is that preserving that rare beauty of old is what we need now.
I think you should be careful with what you're saying, because you're insinuating the Bishops and Priests who celebrate Mass at these Churches aren't a "Catholic who goes to Church on Sundays", and that's probably not what you mean.
For sure those catholics are also reluctant to celebrate mass at such an obscenity. Unless they are more loyal to some masonic loge than Rome. The smoke of satan has entered the church. We should fight for our tradition. Chartres sonne, Chartres t'appelle, gloire honneur au Christ-Roi!
Unfortunately modernism has also crept into the orthodox church, much less then any other Christian traditions.but still the new St.nicolas that was rebuilt at ground zero of 9/11 attack is monstrous. It's everything modern Americans want but not what they need.
My first thought was that the alter is an inverted pyramid. My second thought was that Dante's hell has the shape it does because it's a inverted and hollow holy mountain.
LOL when I saw it I thought that too and at the same time I thought, good thing the Catholics aren't dunkers as a baby could slip away and drown if it were just swooshed by someone standing outside that monstrosity LMAO
So true to the name of your channel "the symbolic world". Thank you for your explanation of the shapes of the altar and the domes. I hated when the priest started facing the people at the altar. Telling my age. It seemed more sacred and secret. The priest was focused and not distracted by facing out. It felt like we were participating and being led. Not being entertained by facing front. A show. Now we are showing the instability of the church!
A ritual is the Re-Presentation of the action of the Deity that brought about the Universe. A return (and it is a return) to facing the people is a return to an ancient fuller understanding of the Mass as the Last Supper made real for His people, an actual participation in the Heavenly Banquet on the First Holy Thursday. As Jesus faced his Apostles, so Jesus, in his persona of the priest faces his apostles, the congregation. It never made sense to me to have the priest pray to the wall. The Father is everywhere. To me it makes so much more sense to pray to the Father together. I often wonder, how the ancient Tradition of the facing the people was lost. God bless you.
that’s just not true. ancient tradition was always to face „away“ from the people. because of the reason you stated actually. to show the common goal of all in the church (even the priest) which is the sacrifice we offer to god together. the priest being turned around to the crowd makes him the center of attention - which is wrong
I'm a traditional Catholic and personally, I love the high altars. I'm lucky enough to go to one of the most beautiful churches here in Cincinnati. You walk inside and you definitely feel like you've stepped back in time to the middle ages. It's magnificent. Look up Immaculate Conception Catholic Church in Norwood (Cincinnati), OH. I've prayed at that altar many times and it's a foretaste of Heaven. God bless you all.
Just looking at the picture, similar shapes pop out at one: the central arch which frames the cross. Below the Pièta, the cross framed by an arch repeats itself. And then this altar spins that motif on its head. Pulling the eye not up to the cross and further up to the heavens, but downward to the curve of where the half-egg shape touches the ground. So you’re absolutely right about the altar being a modernist gotcha. Especially after the Paris Olympics earlier in summer.
Thanks for the insight Johnathan! One suggestion if I may: the microfone is very good, but there is lot of echo and reverb, which can be fixed by fine-tuning the mic's config. If you get someone who knows how to do it, it will sound phenomenal.
100% agree with your assessment of the altar. I'll quote JP on a psychoanalytic maxim - If you can't determine the motivation, look at the result and infer it from there. You are spot on 100% correct and I immediately had the same sense. We should not be surprised, but speaking for myself, it is still hard to not be sickened.
Progressivism isn’t about technological change and improvement of agriculture, medicine, or technology in general. So many people are duped into thinking that’s what they mean by progressive which has brought many improvements to society. It rather refers to social change. Of course, some is expected and we all want to improve ourselves and society, but progressivism is change just for the sake of change. Natural change which happens organically is generally fine, but radical or forced change is by definition instability. Which can be seen represented in this “altar.”
ultra progressives and pietistic (online only) rad trads schismatics are both symptoms of the same decay, using planetary symbols both Saturn (the weight of time) and Uranus (constant change and flux or air) can have a bad influence on the way we think if they are not properly integrated.
It’s a ship, it’s a bowl, it’s half a planet, it’s a place of sacrifice, a coffin and a tomb, an ark, as you mentioned, and your notion that it must reflect stability is contradicted by our life today. Its placement at the crossing, closer to the congregation, also reflects the notion that worship is not just a matter for clerics, but for all believers. I was at first shocked to see it and its shape, but then I saw it topped by a cross, which gave it a much richer significance. And rather than suggesting the earth, it suggests space, to which in modern life we have a new and potent relation. Transfiguration and ascension are a deep part of the idea of hope that is part of every Christian’s faith.
It makes me think of neo-platonism which emphasized the sphere which correlates to the soul. Having the bottom be round communicates a sense of abstraction of the foundation. This parallels modernism which tends to view reality through a psychological lense and understands symbolism as being primarily abstract. This is also consistent with much Roman Catholic theology of the past two centuries which more and more has emphasized something like the Monad as the basis of existence which sustains all unity. Look at thinkers like Richard Rohr and Teilhard De Chardin. With this view, ecumenism is seen as a valuable expression of an underlying unity. But this is something like Origenism plus neo-platonism repackaged. It diminishes boundaries and as it diminishes boundaries, it also diminishes our interior sense of the sacred, the sanctified, the “set apart”. We’ve definitely been witnessing a merge between secular humanism and Christianity. The more Christianity has compromised those ancient fundamental values for modern humanism, the more Christianity has been abstracted til at last all that’s left is a Christianity that functions as a faith-based form of psychological help. All of this seems to be because Christians have assumed the values and philosophy of the enlightenment while simultaneously being skeptical about traditional Christian doctrine.
I appreciate most of the restoration work. Much of the art has been brought back to life. The colors on the painted walls actually register clearly. I personally like the cleaner look of the stone. Back during the time of christiandome, we actually bothered to clean our churches. Though after decades of neglect we’ve become accustomed to the dingy appearance. Sort of the same way people in the 14th century onward kept statues white rather than how they were in antiquity. The new alter is awful though.
Well, this a very relevant commentary! It shows what's really wrong with this restoration, if one is looking for it, for what might be wrong, and probably describes the real motivation behind the restoration.
@@DagothJab The antichrists razed and then rebuilt their temple, this is symbolic for them taking full power over the world in 2025 year of the Jubilee, nothing good coming for mankind so you better all prepare, knowledge that is not applies is useless.
You're so right about how revolutionary and spiteful this new Altar seems. My fear is that progressives in the church will be "inspired" by this and want to transform their churches, too, because "Notre Dame did it!". I mean, it's bad enough that the current design of most Norvus Ordo churches look like an auditorium, but at least their altars have been traditionally square. Now, I see the worst happening.
The picnic table altar that was there before the fire was also ghastly. This was absolutely a win. That thing can be rolled out when fire again descends onto the faithful of France
My first thought was that it was a chalice, and that fits with the sacrificial aspect, despite there was something missing with the base of the altar. For example, the Archbishop had to step down to go around it. As a catholic, I felt very sad with what they did with the old High Altar, turning it into the Tabernacle, that did not fit at all. I would say it was a victory of the Novus Ordo, Versus Populum, that does not give any room to the Old Mass to be celebrated. I mostly agree with your point of view, and my wife, who is an ex-orthodox also felt very uneasy with that altar. I fully disagree with you about the Baroque aspects because I think that is just so beautiful.
As a Catholic with both Byzantine and Roman backgrounds, I was probably MORE shocked than you. The altar should be the entire focus of the church bldg., ALWAYS the most ornate and dead center in that space (apex?). I thought this was a glitch in the photos, or construction equipment left behind. Maybe something temporary until they finished the real one? The very opposite of what I expected. Compared to the alter at the Vatican, this is beyond just weird and crazy. Thank you for mentioning this because I was still perplexed and curious. I kept wondering, "what is it???". Nobody else mentions it. I really like it. It is a design triumph. It does EXACTLY what it is supposed to do. Within its environs, it clashes to the maximum. With this degree of stark visual discord, nobody could help notice it. It IS understated (and minimalistic) and still commands attention in a quiet way. An extremely ornate altar would just blend in with the rest, and not demand attention like this does. I think it is genius. This only emphasizes the entire reason of the bldg. and the mass. This form is certainly not lost among surrounding extremely ornate environ. It gives my eyes a place to rest, and imparts peace, calm and focus, without distraction. No, I don't think it symbolizes a ship and is not "wobbly looking", although I see your point. Stone that big and heavy doesn't give me that impression, at most it would see-saw, under extreme force, only visually. I see your point of the top being square, but don't completely agree. Too many altars have a rectilinear top which mimic most dining tables, like the last supper. To your point, the bottom of the circle could have been flattened a little, so it had more of a solid base to connect it better to the Earth. Maybe? Maybe not? Thanks for satisfying my intrigue. Your points are well taken, I just don't agree entirely.
I heard the altar table is made of bronze. There is square recess in the middle into which relics of a saint, etc. have been inserted. I do not know whether it is solid cast bronze, or hollow, cast like a bell.
Many thanks for your bringing to consciousness so clearly and accurately what I had subconsciously felt and so turned away from it. You are absolutely correct about this thing conveying unstability as opposed to and emphasied by the surrounding stability of the ancient church.
I'm going to paraphrase what I said on The Symbolic World Forums: Every generation has left its mark on Notre-Dame, between the original Medieval people building it for the first time, and the Mays, and Violet-le-Duc, everyone has done something. But not everything is forever. The original Medieval choir screen was lost centuries ago, and parts of it were discovered during restoration. This altar will pass as well. As the centuries roll on, saving the Cathedral from fire and collapse will be the impact our generation leaves on it. Perhaps that too will be symbolic of something?
Fair points. Thanks . I'm not suggesting this was your intention to challenge Jonathan , but I think it's ok for Jonathan to point it out given that's what he does.
I'll paraphrase my and other's sentiments "It's modernist sh*t meant to both engrandise the usurpers and deflate the faithful; it's a friggin' abomination and an insult to art and God".
"Why does that look so different from everything else?" It brings to mind the big rectangular object from Stanley Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey, or that strange black thing all over the artwork of Led Zeppelin's Presence album -- it's jarring, it feels imposed upon the surrounding space (and upon us). It's unsettling and might be making demands of us -- sacrifices, but of a new and mysterious kind. It's a beautiful shape nonetheless, and it would have to be, given the circumstances. But yeah, what is it really about?
I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the new reliquary for the crown of thorns as well. It reminds me of a lidless eye and of an insect nest at the same time.
Everyone on twitter intuitively knew the altar was wrong! Also, at my parish and at many Catholic parishes the priest still faces east. Hopefully this will go back to being normative in the future.
The canopy above the altar table is called the baldacchino (en français: baldaquin). The ciborium (or tabernacle) is the housing in the shape of a church building (often under a glass bell) on the altar table, where the consecrated Hosts are stored. It comes from Latin _cibum_ meaning "food." Beautiful video. Thank you. I especially appreciate your balanced comments and the views of the traditional high altars and reredos (plural); note spelling r-e-r-e-d-o-s (singular and plural). This word is related to French words arrière (rear) and dos (back).
They already won when the people who burnt it down were protected, and Zelensky was paraded around like an action figure... let alone the dreadful music.
My take on it? Thank God the French government plans did not destroy Notre Dame. The bishop had to fight tooth and nail, but he (mostly) prevailed. The altar can be fixed by the next (and better) generation. The awful chasubles will eventually go back to the 70's, from where somehow they escaped, and go into oblivion. But the magnificence of the space was preserved, as were the holy relics. A miracle in itself.
I was sure you were going to talk about the altar as a tomb… The early masses celebrated on tombs in the catacombs, the bones of saints in altars, the sacrifice being offered that is risen from the tomb…
The worst part about it is the mere fact that everyone sees it and immediately knows why it's there, where it comes from, and that it stands out. What's so hard is that the altar is what we bow to, what we kneel before our Lord toward, and it's like now when we do that, we will be doing that toward what pretty much represents a culture and a source which hates everything that building and faith stands for. So it's frustrating, that it distracts substantially from the faithful in their desire to worship God.
I think one reason (maybe not the only reason) the ancient altars were rectangular was to represent the tombs of the early martyrs, upon which the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was celebrated in the catacombs. Hence the inclusion of relics within the altar. The Holy Eucharist is offered over the bones of the saints. And altars should always be constructed of stone, or failing that, wood. Why is this weird "altar" made of bronze? Those who have commented that it's like a witches' cauldron are not wrong. For me, the black and white checkerboard floor also stands out and clashes with the quiet soaring stonework of the fabric of the cathedral. It looks masonic. It is masonic. The vestments were a mockery, a clown show, that grossly detracted from the beauty and solemnity of the ceremony itself - maybe were intended to undermine it. I'm astonished that the Archbishop permitted such a travesty - but I suspect he was given no choice. He apparently fought hard to retain certain traditional elements, but maybe was forced to concede the choice of vestments to someone else - who used the opportunity to thumb their nose at the Church. The designer was famous for designing outfits for Madonna, Beyoncé and Lady Gaga...that in itself speaks volumes.
14:15 Not during Vatican 2, but after Vatican 2. If you read the V2 constitution on the liturgy "Sacrosanctum Concilium", you won't find request for turning the priest to the people. The reform after the council basically ignored almost everything what the council said.
I love a return to ancient tradition of facing the people at Mass. After all the Mass IS the representation of the Last Supper and Jesus faced the Apostles then when he offered his Body and Blood to the Father. God Bless you. BTW, I really did not like the altar either.
The altar reminds me of a small boat, similar to the shape of the one on the coat of arms of Paris, and of my capital Lisbon. As a descendent of sailors, a boat to me means alot. It means to me safe haven, the Church itself and the conquering of pagan lands for Christ among and through the chaos of the waves and watery graves. I don't know what they intended with this and I don't find it beautiful nor like it personally, but its funny how my brain went to what is most familiar and deepest in my cultural identity to try and comprehend what I was looking at.
One more thought - the altar is rectangular because it is similar to the mercy seat, the cover to the Ark of the Covenant. It is the place where the blood of the sacrifice is presented/offered to God, the place where God meets the people to deal with guilt and sin.
His sound is frequently strange. I noticed it's often over modulated and lacking compression. in this video it sounded almost like a gate was being used or some type of reverb/echo.
@kylecoffey4943 if i were to take a guess, it sounds like he rendered to video, which conpresses it to say mp4, uploads it to wherever he does his early access stuff, that system will do additional compression, he then downloads it at a later date to upload somewhere else, and when reuploading additional compression is done again which leads to the articacts. But even at that I find it hard to believe it would mess it up that bad with just 2 site compressions.
@kylecoffey4943 i also suspect his gain is way too low on his mic, and the poor guy responsible for editing his videos is having to crank the volume and crank a compressor to the max to make the audio usable, which would also explain the graininess. Hard to say.
@@joshuasy10 yeah to both comments. A simple USB audio interface that has some rudimentary settings for voice would remedy most of these issues. Alas...
@@lis4846Masonic ritual is often copied from Catholic ritual, not the other way around. It’s part of an old ritual consecrating a cathedral. Knocking 3 times on the door with the crozier is laying claim to the building.
Montreal's St. Joseph's Oratory dominating the city has a very strange little cage behind the altar with bizarre structures right under the cupola. Very spooky.
@@celtoroma4013you had me with “pride and sins”, but you lost me at “irreverence to saints Peter and Paul.” The patrons of my Parrish are saints Peter and Paul, so this is quite interesting to me. Can you expand on that? What did the church in Constantinople did to dishonor saints Peter and Paul in particular?
@@celtoroma4013 well they rightfully didn't submit to the absurd dictates of the Papist terror and regime invented using forged canon law (pseudoisidorian dectretals) also who destroyed Constantinople in 1204 causing much more damage than the Turks ?
I tend to be open minded to other forms of gnosis - empiricism is not the only way. Certain world events strike as being symbolic and contrived - we’re not stupid, we know when someone is communicating to us. Notre Dame felt like a message was being sent - for sure. We all know a point was being made.
For the vestments, need some work but the new vestments were suppose to represent surviving or come back from the fire. The altar needs work because it doesn’t work aesthetically with the Cathedral.
Interesting parallel in book, ‘the sphere and the labyrinth’ by Tafuri, regarding the groundbreaking design for an alter, I think by Bernini, which ushered in the renaissance. Read it decades ago but can revisit it and précis if interested.
I read in a National Geographic article that the designer of the altar, Guillaume Bardet, 'searched for shapes that felt simple and immutable.' The article goes on to say: 'The bronze altar is massive and looks rooted to the spot, yet its curves sides evoke a pair of uplifted arms. The hope is that it will spea not only to the faithful but also to the large number of tourists who are unfamiliar with Catholicism or even Christianity. "They too have to understand," Bardet said. "They have to understand that we're talking about the sacred."'
“And if you make Me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of hewn stone; for if you use your tool on it, you have profaned it.” Exodus 20:25
Il ne suffit pas de citer. Il faut expliquer les justifications de cette interdiction ! Mais les connaissez vous ?... De toute façon, cet autel n'est pas en pierre, so...
As far as the most generous interpretation goes, I'm not sure it should be given. I think the altar clearly is a poke in the eye. But maybe not the triumphant "we won" poke in the eye as you've said. More like the last gasps of something that will inevitably lose, kicking and screaming on its way out. As Fr. Brown said here in the comments, Catholics who are actually going to church on Sunday are generally trending in the camp that are quite uncomfortable with things like this, whether they know why or not. Also you should have Fr. Brown on the show. Would be a great chat!
even before fire, it was already modern, minimalistic design. I’ve been always viewing Notredame as the building which wants to embrace new things and new thoughts too, rather than staying musem-like all the time. when it’s representing the identity of Paris itself, isn’t it even right to have new things also in it ? I don’t know. Not all churchrs have to be like San Giovanni in Laterano.
Our dining table at home (passed down) has this shape basically, though the arms lifting the table are grounded securely on a horizontal base. A similar design was used in a restored Catholic church here. The priest explained the supports were of the table were meant to represent arms lifted up in prayer. Symbolism is jarring if not imbued with the right content, as in freemasonry. The instinctive response is one of revulsion.
Also interesting to note that if you think of the world as a sphere, then based on the setup of this altar, it places the sacrifice of the Mass directly in the center of the Earth- the pit of hell
I saw a bowl. Which, I'm not catholic, I don't understand the depth or weight of these symbols but preparing the sacrament in a bowl is a very strange message. Progress is almost like a ravenous hunger that eats but is never filled.
A guy in EWTN pointed out that the secular French govt, historically anti Catholic, wanted the Church built as it was but it was the actual Church officials and clergy who green lit the altar. Very sad
Interesting that you would have felt weird about the fire at Notre-Dame. There is no way a simple cigarette but could have ignited ils wood that is so dense it practically cannot catch fire. That very night it was deemed to be an accident. I don’t know if you saw Macron’ grin that night. Gives you chills. We are not hearing much about the official enquiert (which will probably stick to the accident thesis). Many specialists (conspiracy theorists, of course) posit the presence if a fire accelerant. Indeed a few months before the fire, a company by the name of Aubriat sprayed “fungicide” all over the the “forêt”, as the rafters are known even though fungus have never been an issue. That company refuses to answer questions. The head of the reconstruction project, general Georgelin, died “accidentally” while hiking. According to a former culture minister under Macron Roselyne Bachelot, Brigitte Macron wanted to replace Viollet-le-Duc’s steeple with a modern steeple with two golden spheres at its base. At this moment Macron wants to replace the old stained glass windows with modern ones. I understand you don’t like the new altar. Neither do I. It is actually a middle finger to the Catholics. My understanding is that an alter should be made of wood, not metal. As to the three steps leading up to it, it mirrors the steps to a masonic altar. Indeed the new altar is reminiscent of the masonic altar in the temple of the Grand Orient de France in Paris. Macron was not supposed to give a speech in the cathedral (1905 law of separation between church and state, tradition and respect - not even St Louis who brought back the crown of thorns, our kings or Napoleon for that matter, even though he crowned himself emperor in that sacred space gave speeches). Some of his verbiage contained masonic expressions. As an aside, there is a close connection between French politics and freemasonry. (Beware the rabbit hole if you decide to research this). The new tabernacle is pretty much shaped like a coffin. At the opening mass the clergy were clothed like clowns, not according to liturgical colors. Cacophony resounded from the magnificent organ. The Macrons peacocked up the central aisle as if they owned the place, In my mind the cathedral has been desecrated. The smoke and tears and prayers of centuries have been scrubbed off the walls to leave them white and bright and soulless, and the sacred light that shone through the darkness has been usurped and corrupted, in by a sterile harshness that is no longer the exclusive domain of spirituality directed by impure hearts (nothing against the workers and craftsmen and artists who probably poured their hear into their sacred work).
Honestly Jonathan, if all your criticism of the restoration of one the -if not the- most important works of art of Western Christiany is the fact that the altart feels wobbly, I would consider that a victory. You are cherry picking at this point. Do you guys remeber some of the early projects that were proposed? The glass ceiling with the spire, the steel skyscrapper-like spiral... They where horrendous and that would have truly been a desecration of the space. Without entering into the dimbolic elements, for ehich I'm not at all ready to tackle, just imagine the logistical nightmare for the conservation of the interior of the cathedral with a glass roof creating a greenhouse effect THERE. As you all can see, cooler heads prevailed and the restoration eas incredibly respectful. We should give credit where credit is due and recognize that the French state and the Archdiocese of Paris did a fantastic job in both preserving and o/recreating the state of the building before the burning and btinging back the original vision and intention of the buinding, connecting the mundane world with the Heavens through a luminous, colourful and light buinding, something that had been lost due to the grime and the inevitable passing of time. Again, if your biggest critique of the whole thing is a poorly chosen altar, I consider it a compkete success. If anything, I would say that you havent looked well enough into the aituation because what is truly tragic is the artificial ilumination of the cathedral. If you guys search pictures of the interior after the restoration you will see that it is too white, it feels like a bathroom at times. It should have been more orange, which resembles the natural color of fire and creates a more mystical, warmer and private environment.
Thank you for this interesting video on the new altar. The French are not very shocked by the new liturgical furniture. Personally I find that the line adopted is very pure. There are six ideas that emerge from this form The polished stone of Abraham's sacrifice The hull of Noah's ship that saves the world from the flood The inverted shape of the cathedral's vaults which represent the heavens. Here the inverted shape of the vaults would signify the presence of Jesus on earth. The shape of the altar is similar to that of the baptistery which is now at the entrance to the cathedral. The nave which separates the baptistery from the altar is the path that the Christian must make every day and which is also the path that the Christian must make from baptism to communion. And the most beautiful image that I have in my head since the Archbishop of Paris consecrated the altar is this chalice shape that the altar has. The chalice hugs the altar at the time of the Eucharist and for me it is absolutely magnificent. The altar seems to rest in a fragile balance as if faith also had this fragility but perhaps it is also the fragile repentance that we all have as we are sinners.
Thanks for sharing. I think the French take or ‘reasoning’ you have given makes sense. However they got it wrong and by this notion have been rather selective about the ‘specific instructions’ god gave to build his sacred space in the Old Testament. Do we want to follow Gods specific instruction? Or do we want to decide for ourselves?
it's also inverted from the shape you mentioned at the beginning. the dome (heaven) is below the square (earth). disturbing when you consider your imagery. on the other hand it could be trying to portray a cup.
Instability of the shape doesn't bring calm or order. It creates chaos. If columns were added on the corners then it turns into a basin. A basin could be considered stable but it also intones being filled up. Which makes man above the filling up. Or it can be considered to be underneath which intones below the earth, which is also below man and symbolizes the underworld. Just my impressions.
Don’t know what they were doing with that altar. Took away completely from the statue at the back. I looked up the aisle once and your eyes were drawn to the back. Not like that now. Monstrosity in the middle.
This made me incredibly sad. Then angry. The question I have now is ‘What can be done’? Can we write or petition to have it changed? Is there a petition?
Yes. The enemies of Christ wrestled & won control over the altar. Between the bizarre childlike vestments & the rite attended by the enemies of Christ and peace, the reopening of ND was as disturbing as the fire.
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Important: Everything about Notre-Dame is miraculous and a whitepill, from its original construction to the way that its most precious treasures were somehow spared in the 2019 fire (and the fact it didn't utterly collapse) to the way that the secular and currently totally non-functional French government shepherded a rebuilding process that drew on the depth and height of the remaining genius of medieval craftsmanship right at a moment when it would seem poised to be lost forever, and did so in record time.
Any "unfortunate" aesthetic choices (incongruous altar, over-bright lighting) are of the rather superficial sort that can be easily reversed in a generation or two once a certain tendency has worked its way fully out of the system.
On the scale of choices that will matter in another 1,000 years, the good guys won. GLORY TO GOD.
Seriously! I feel like it just burned down. It was reconstructed in record time.
King Louis burned a cart full of talmuds right in front of Notre Dame 777 years before it caught fire
@@Joe-sg9ll ...ok?
@@Joe-sg9ll What?
@@CarcharodonMeg whoa. my comment was deleted.
King Louis burned a cartload of taImuds out in front of Notre Dame 777 years before it caught fire.
It is also worth noting that the Arch bishop had a huge fight to keep the church the way it was as in France it is the state & not the Catholic Church that owns the buildings. I think he did an amazing job to keep so much only giving way in the altar & vestments (horrible) which can easily be changed in the future.
It could have been more of a post modern monstrosity that's for sure.
At the end of the whole restoration project, the French state told the archbishop "here are the keys to your church, you can have them back." And the archbishop said something like "I never lost the keys!"
I'm hearing this second, or third hand, so who knows how all of that went down. But, the archbishop was pretty firm in his authority over the church.
@@St.MartinofToursPrayToGodForUs the way I heard the story is that Macron wnated to do all kinds of ceremonies inside the church to puff his ego, one of them being the "handing back the keys" to the Arbishop. He said no to that, with those words: I never lost the keys.
@silvinasi ok, I think your version is right. It might be a case of the game of telephone.
@@silvinasi macron is... awful...
On the plus side, a decent altar cloth could easily fix the visual shape.
Thank you for this analysis and bringing this to light. I'm just a 25-year-old Floridian, newly married construction worker: when I first saw the altar, I was immediately struck by its odd existence within the space
To me, this new altar looks like one that would be used in the worship of Satan. There is nothing about it to indicate that it is consecrated to Christian worship or to the offering of the Holy Mass.
It looks like a witches cauldron. Horrible😒
Become Orthodox ☦️
Either they don’t understand anything or they do understand everything.
Very astute actually
@@lukeviolini9522 Your mom is astute
They were smart enough to understand restoring everything else.
They understand everything, this rebuilding of the temple heralds the antichrists finally taking full control of the world in the Vatican Jubilee year.
I didn't realise at first that, that was the altar. It looks like a modern bath tub.
So in France it is the state that owns the churches & I think the bishop did well to limit the modernism to the free standing altar & vestments things that can be easily changed in the future
Hagia Sofia is a Mosque.
A manger even?
Antichrists don't need an altar.
Horrible not beautiful
Da Vinci said that an oval shape in a picture stands out of its own accord. This altar is half an oval ... with the same effect. It stands out because of its shape and also, in its minimalism, there is no resonance between it and the rest of the architecture. It is like a blot that draws the eye, while at the same time the eye wants to repudiate it. It makes for uneasy viewing-one is not invited into worship but irritated into an intellectual itchiness.
Sort of looking at that serpent raised on a stick back in the day
Agree. There’s something about rounding off a cube… that feels wrong in giving up the stability.
your comment made me think of UFOs for some reason, uneasy ovals ... interesting
Excellent critique.
This style is becoming popular in lots of old traditionally designed and decorated Catholic Churches - not the shape necessarily, but the style (check out the new altar in the Gesu in Rome which is square, but you'll still hate it). It's a representation of the fashion of modern Western Europe. They see fashion as a genuine expression of the culture. And they see the altar style as representing the people. It's like saying "We aren't those superstitious old-fashioned people we once were, full of embarrassing notions of crusades and colonies... We are a refined people now, able to see beauty in geometric perfection and skill in modern building techniques. So our altar will be represent that." It's sad, really. I don't know any Catholic who goes to Church on Sundays who likes this direction. The sense of the faithful is that preserving that rare beauty of old is what we need now.
Nor even our most "name-only catholics" like this, nobody likes it.
90% of Catholics hate all the modernist art
I think you should be careful with what you're saying, because you're insinuating the Bishops and Priests who celebrate Mass at these Churches aren't a "Catholic who goes to Church on Sundays", and that's probably not what you mean.
For sure those catholics are also reluctant to celebrate mass at such an obscenity. Unless they are more loyal to some masonic loge than Rome. The smoke of satan has entered the church. We should fight for our tradition. Chartres sonne, Chartres t'appelle, gloire honneur au Christ-Roi!
Unfortunately modernism has also crept into the orthodox church, much less then any other Christian traditions.but still the new St.nicolas that was rebuilt at ground zero of 9/11 attack is monstrous. It's everything modern Americans want but not what they need.
@VACatholic hearing the ideas a lot of them have, I do not think a lot of them are correct in the doctrine of the Catholic Church
My first thought was that the alter is an inverted pyramid. My second thought was that Dante's hell has the shape it does because it's a inverted and hollow holy mountain.
I honestly thought it was the christening basin .
LOL when I saw it I thought that too and at the same time I thought, good thing the Catholics aren't dunkers as a baby could slip away and drown if it were just swooshed by someone standing outside that monstrosity LMAO
Thank you Johnathan for all you do. So grateful for an influence as insightful and passionate as you are for our faith!
Thank you Jonathan for all that you do
So true to the name of your channel "the symbolic world". Thank you for your explanation of the shapes of the altar and the domes. I hated when the priest started facing the people at the altar. Telling my age. It seemed more sacred and secret. The priest was focused and not distracted by facing out. It felt like we were participating and being led. Not being entertained by facing front. A show. Now we are showing the instability of the church!
A ritual is the Re-Presentation of the action of the Deity that brought about the Universe. A return (and it is a return) to facing the people is a return to an ancient fuller understanding of the Mass as the Last Supper made real for His people, an actual participation in the Heavenly Banquet on the First Holy Thursday. As Jesus faced his Apostles, so Jesus, in his persona of the priest faces his apostles, the congregation. It never made sense to me to have the priest pray to the wall. The Father is everywhere. To me it makes so much more sense to pray to the Father together. I often wonder, how the ancient Tradition of the facing the people was lost. God bless you.
that’s just not true. ancient tradition was always to face „away“ from the people. because of the reason you stated actually. to show the common goal of all in the church (even the priest) which is the sacrifice we offer to god together. the priest being turned around to the crowd makes him the center of attention - which is wrong
I'm a traditional Catholic and personally, I love the high altars. I'm lucky enough to go to one of the most beautiful churches here in Cincinnati. You walk inside and you definitely feel like you've stepped back in time to the middle ages. It's magnificent. Look up Immaculate Conception Catholic Church in Norwood (Cincinnati), OH. I've prayed at that altar many times and it's a foretaste of Heaven. God bless you all.
If the dome/curve represents heaven and the square represents earth, doesn’t that alter have the whole cosmos turned on its head?
Good observation whether intentional or otherwise
Good point. And heads are not for standing on
Symbolism happens!
Glad someone else noticed. They toppled the dome and are eating from it.
Yes
Just looking at the picture, similar shapes pop out at one: the central arch which frames the cross. Below the Pièta, the cross framed by an arch repeats itself. And then this altar spins that motif on its head. Pulling the eye not up to the cross and further up to the heavens, but downward to the curve of where the half-egg shape touches the ground.
So you’re absolutely right about the altar being a modernist gotcha. Especially after the Paris Olympics earlier in summer.
Thanks for the insight Johnathan! One suggestion if I may: the microfone is very good, but there is lot of echo and reverb, which can be fixed by fine-tuning the mic's config. If you get someone who knows how to do it, it will sound phenomenal.
100% agree with your assessment of the altar. I'll quote JP on a psychoanalytic maxim - If you can't determine the motivation, look at the result and infer it from there. You are spot on 100% correct and I immediately had the same sense. We should not be surprised, but speaking for myself, it is still hard to not be sickened.
That maxim is jung
THANK YOU, JONATHAN..
AM GRATEFUL TO SEE THIS.
Progressivism isn’t about technological change and improvement of agriculture, medicine, or technology in general. So many people are duped into thinking that’s what they mean by progressive which has brought many improvements to society. It rather refers to social change. Of course, some is expected and we all want to improve ourselves and society, but progressivism is change just for the sake of change. Natural change which happens organically is generally fine, but radical or forced change is by definition instability. Which can be seen represented in this “altar.”
The progressives we see today is just constrained, attenuated communism.
ultra progressives and pietistic (online only) rad trads schismatics are both symptoms of the same decay, using planetary symbols both Saturn (the weight of time) and Uranus (constant change and flux or air) can have a bad influence on the way we think if they are not properly integrated.
Circling the square?
Yes it definitely has a masonic feel
It’s a ship, it’s a bowl, it’s half a planet, it’s a place of sacrifice, a coffin and a tomb, an ark, as you mentioned, and your notion that it must reflect stability is contradicted by our life today. Its placement at the crossing, closer to the congregation, also reflects the notion that worship is not just a matter for clerics, but for all believers. I was at first shocked to see it and its shape, but then I saw it topped by a cross, which gave it a much richer significance. And rather than suggesting the earth, it suggests space, to which in modern life we have a new and potent relation. Transfiguration and ascension are a deep part of the idea of hope that is part of every Christian’s faith.
It makes me think of neo-platonism which emphasized the sphere which correlates to the soul. Having the bottom be round communicates a sense of abstraction of the foundation. This parallels modernism which tends to view reality through a psychological lense and understands symbolism as being primarily abstract. This is also consistent with much Roman Catholic theology of the past two centuries which more and more has emphasized something like the Monad as the basis of existence which sustains all unity. Look at thinkers like Richard Rohr and Teilhard De Chardin. With this view, ecumenism is seen as a valuable expression of an underlying unity. But this is something like Origenism plus neo-platonism repackaged. It diminishes boundaries and as it diminishes boundaries, it also diminishes our interior sense of the sacred, the sanctified, the “set apart”. We’ve definitely been witnessing a merge between secular humanism and Christianity. The more Christianity has compromised those ancient fundamental values for modern humanism, the more Christianity has been abstracted til at last all that’s left is a Christianity that functions as a faith-based form of psychological help.
All of this seems to be because Christians have assumed the values and philosophy of the enlightenment while simultaneously being skeptical about traditional Christian doctrine.
I appreciate most of the restoration work. Much of the art has been brought back to life. The colors on the painted walls actually register clearly. I personally like the cleaner look of the stone. Back during the time of christiandome, we actually bothered to clean our churches. Though after decades of neglect we’ve become accustomed to the dingy appearance. Sort of the same way people in the 14th century onward kept statues white rather than how they were in antiquity. The new alter is awful though.
Altar
@ autocorrect
@ don’t you hate it😡
Thanks for all you do!! I hoped that you, specifically would comment on this!! ❤
They're subverting the mountain
It is an inverted dome... 😢
That's what I was thinking too, it's a symbol of divine heaven pointing down instead of up.
Well, this a very relevant commentary! It shows what's really wrong with this restoration, if one is looking for it, for what might be wrong, and probably describes the real motivation behind the restoration.
Then, this is diabolic.
@@vincentraddclus9490just like modern “culture” and inverted “democratic” (oligarchic) world “dis”order
@@DagothJab The antichrists razed and then rebuilt their temple, this is symbolic for them taking full power over the world in 2025 year of the Jubilee, nothing good coming for mankind so you better all prepare, knowledge that is not applies is useless.
You're so right about how revolutionary and spiteful this new Altar seems. My fear is that progressives in the church will be "inspired" by this and want to transform their churches, too, because "Notre Dame did it!". I mean, it's bad enough that the current design of most Norvus Ordo churches look like an auditorium, but at least their altars have been traditionally square. Now, I see the worst happening.
The picnic table altar that was there before the fire was also ghastly. This was absolutely a win. That thing can be rolled out when fire again descends onto the faithful of France
My first thought was that it was a chalice, and that fits with the sacrificial aspect, despite there was something missing with the base of the altar. For example, the Archbishop had to step down to go around it. As a catholic, I felt very sad with what they did with the old High Altar, turning it into the Tabernacle, that did not fit at all. I would say it was a victory of the Novus Ordo, Versus Populum, that does not give any room to the Old Mass to be celebrated. I mostly agree with your point of view, and my wife, who is an ex-orthodox also felt very uneasy with that altar. I fully disagree with you about the Baroque aspects because I think that is just so beautiful.
Nicely explained. Thank you, Jonathan.
This altar does not look like an altar but it does look like a receptacle.
As a Catholic with both Byzantine and Roman backgrounds, I was probably MORE shocked than you.
The altar should be the entire focus of the church bldg., ALWAYS the most ornate and dead center in that space (apex?). I thought this was a glitch in the photos, or construction equipment left behind. Maybe something temporary until they finished the real one? The very opposite of what I expected. Compared to the alter at the Vatican, this is beyond just weird and crazy.
Thank you for mentioning this because I was still perplexed and curious. I kept wondering, "what is it???". Nobody else mentions it.
I really like it. It is a design triumph. It does EXACTLY what it is supposed to do.
Within its environs, it clashes to the maximum. With this degree of stark visual discord, nobody could help notice it. It IS understated (and minimalistic) and still commands attention in a quiet way.
An extremely ornate altar would just blend in with the rest, and not demand attention like this does. I think it is genius. This only emphasizes the entire reason of the bldg. and the mass. This form is certainly not lost among surrounding extremely ornate environ. It gives my eyes a place to rest, and imparts peace, calm and focus, without distraction.
No, I don't think it symbolizes a ship and is not "wobbly looking", although I see your point.
Stone that big and heavy doesn't give me that impression, at most it would see-saw, under extreme force, only visually. I see your point of the top being square, but don't completely agree.
Too many altars have a rectilinear top which mimic most dining tables, like the last supper. To your point, the bottom of the circle could have been flattened a little, so it had more of a solid base to connect it better to the Earth. Maybe? Maybe not?
Thanks for satisfying my intrigue. Your points are well taken, I just don't agree entirely.
I heard the altar table is made of bronze. There is square recess in the middle into which relics of a saint, etc. have been inserted. I do not know whether it is solid cast bronze, or hollow, cast like a bell.
Many thanks for your bringing to consciousness so clearly and accurately what I had subconsciously felt and so turned away from it. You are absolutely correct about this thing conveying unstability as opposed to and emphasied by the surrounding stability of the ancient church.
I'm going to paraphrase what I said on The Symbolic World Forums:
Every generation has left its mark on Notre-Dame, between the original Medieval people building it for the first time, and the Mays, and Violet-le-Duc, everyone has done something. But not everything is forever. The original Medieval choir screen was lost centuries ago, and parts of it were discovered during restoration. This altar will pass as well. As the centuries roll on, saving the Cathedral from fire and collapse will be the impact our generation leaves on it. Perhaps that too will be symbolic of something?
Fair points. Thanks . I'm not suggesting this was your intention to challenge Jonathan , but I think it's ok for Jonathan to point it out given that's what he does.
I'll paraphrase my and other's sentiments "It's modernist sh*t meant to both engrandise the usurpers and deflate the faithful; it's a friggin' abomination and an insult to art and God".
Well, maybe it's not intentional but it sure looks like the Moon to me.
ONLY POSITIVE WE CAN TAKE IS THAT, IT(CURCH) MAY SEEM TO FALL, BUT IT WILL STAND FIRM FROM THE GRACE OF GOD .
"Why does that look so different from everything else?" It brings to mind the big rectangular object from Stanley Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey, or that strange black thing all over the artwork of Led Zeppelin's Presence album -- it's jarring, it feels imposed upon the surrounding space (and upon us). It's unsettling and might be making demands of us -- sacrifices, but of a new and mysterious kind. It's a beautiful shape nonetheless, and it would have to be, given the circumstances. But yeah, what is it really about?
I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the new reliquary for the crown of thorns as well. It reminds me of a lidless eye and of an insect nest at the same time.
Everyone on twitter intuitively knew the altar was wrong! Also, at my parish and at many Catholic parishes the priest still faces east. Hopefully this will go back to being normative in the future.
The canopy above the altar table is called the baldacchino (en français: baldaquin). The ciborium (or tabernacle) is the housing in the shape of a church building (often under a glass bell) on the altar table, where the consecrated Hosts are stored. It comes from Latin _cibum_ meaning "food." Beautiful video. Thank you. I especially appreciate your balanced comments and the views of the traditional high altars and reredos (plural); note spelling r-e-r-e-d-o-s (singular and plural). This word is related to French words arrière (rear) and dos (back).
Ciborium is the Ancient Greek term for an altar canopy. Look it up for yourself. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciborium_(architecture)
I think you’re correct in stating this was an act of spite. They definitely saw this as a little win for their subversive ideology.
They already won when the people who burnt it down were protected, and Zelensky was paraded around like an action figure... let alone the dreadful music.
Great video as always Jonathan. I don’t know if it was intentional or not but the audio of the video sounds like you are in the Notre Dame cathedral
My take on it? Thank God the French government plans did not destroy Notre Dame. The bishop had to fight tooth and nail, but he (mostly) prevailed. The altar can be fixed by the next (and better) generation. The awful chasubles will eventually go back to the 70's, from where somehow they escaped, and go into oblivion. But the magnificence of the space was preserved, as were the holy relics. A miracle in itself.
I was sure you were going to talk about the altar as a tomb… The early masses celebrated on tombs in the catacombs, the bones of saints in altars, the sacrifice being offered that is risen from the tomb…
That is an excellent point. Thank you.
The worst part about it is the mere fact that everyone sees it and immediately knows why it's there, where it comes from, and that it stands out.
What's so hard is that the altar is what we bow to, what we kneel before our Lord toward, and it's like now when we do that, we will be doing that toward what pretty much represents a culture and a source which hates everything that building and faith stands for.
So it's frustrating, that it distracts substantially from the faithful in their desire to worship God.
I think one reason (maybe not the only reason) the ancient altars were rectangular was to represent the tombs of the early martyrs, upon which the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was celebrated in the catacombs. Hence the inclusion of relics within the altar. The Holy Eucharist is offered over the bones of the saints. And altars should always be constructed of stone, or failing that, wood. Why is this weird "altar" made of bronze?
Those who have commented that it's like a witches' cauldron are not wrong. For me, the black and white checkerboard floor also stands out and clashes with the quiet soaring stonework of the fabric of the cathedral. It looks masonic. It is masonic.
The vestments were a mockery, a clown show, that grossly detracted from the beauty and solemnity of the ceremony itself - maybe were intended to undermine it. I'm astonished that the Archbishop permitted such a travesty - but I suspect he was given no choice. He apparently fought hard to retain certain traditional elements, but maybe was forced to concede the choice of vestments to someone else - who used the opportunity to thumb their nose at the Church. The designer was famous for designing outfits for Madonna, Beyoncé and Lady Gaga...that in itself speaks volumes.
It's a round peg in a square hole:)
14:15 Not during Vatican 2, but after Vatican 2. If you read the V2 constitution on the liturgy "Sacrosanctum Concilium", you won't find request for turning the priest to the people. The reform after the council basically ignored almost everything what the council said.
I love a return to ancient tradition of facing the people at Mass. After all the Mass IS the representation of the Last Supper and Jesus faced the Apostles then when he offered his Body and Blood to the Father. God Bless you. BTW, I really did not like the altar either.
Thanks for making this public. Was curious on your thoughts.
You might find the altar at St. Hedwig in Berlin a particularly fascinating thing. It is integrated into the style of the whole building, but . . . .
Thank you for your explanation. I have been struggling with what I saw. Next, maybe you can cover this vestments.
In spite of its imperfections the restoration is rather successful compared to the latest one of... Hagia Sofia.
"Restoration of Hagia Sophia"
Ha.... Funny...
The earth is square! Jonathan is a square-earther
Thanks!
The altar reminds me of a small boat, similar to the shape of the one on the coat of arms of Paris, and of my capital Lisbon. As a descendent of sailors, a boat to me means alot. It means to me safe haven, the Church itself and the conquering of pagan lands for Christ among and through the chaos of the waves and watery graves.
I don't know what they intended with this and I don't find it beautiful nor like it personally, but its funny how my brain went to what is most familiar and deepest in my cultural identity to try and comprehend what I was looking at.
One more thought - the altar is rectangular because it is similar to the mercy seat, the cover to the Ark of the Covenant. It is the place where the blood of the sacrifice is presented/offered to God, the place where God meets the people to deal with guilt and sin.
The altar looks like a cauldron 😮
Quite true with respect to the shape and the colour 🙏
IQ Test:
Which item does not belong? 😨
What comes to mind when seeing that first image of the priest over the altar is the word Wizard.
And the altar looks like a cauldron
The national congress in Brazil has the same type of "bowl" modern architecture, and the blueprint was "lost".
Well the altar can even be seen as an inverted dome, but mb i'm reading too much into it
🎯
Even if it is, the alter is still modern
whether or not its intentional it exists as such and betrays the true feelings of the artist
You know jon is serious when his hair is slicked back
How do u even make an sm7b sound like that lol. Must be something wack with ur compression or bit rate.
His sound is frequently strange. I noticed it's often over modulated and lacking compression. in this video it sounded almost like a gate was being used or some type of reverb/echo.
@kylecoffey4943 if i were to take a guess, it sounds like he rendered to video, which conpresses it to say mp4, uploads it to wherever he does his early access stuff, that system will do additional compression, he then downloads it at a later date to upload somewhere else, and when reuploading additional compression is done again which leads to the articacts.
But even at that I find it hard to believe it would mess it up that bad with just 2 site compressions.
@kylecoffey4943 i also suspect his gain is way too low on his mic, and the poor guy responsible for editing his videos is having to crank the volume and crank a compressor to the max to make the audio usable, which would also explain the graininess. Hard to say.
@@joshuasy10 yeah to both comments. A simple USB audio interface that has some rudimentary settings for voice would remedy most of these issues. Alas...
@kylecoffey4943 i wonder if Jonathan can explain the symbolic meaning behind this 🤔
You forgot to mention the Masonic black and white checkerboard floor
Checker board floor doesn't instantly mean Masonic
Is the floor new? If so, definitely suspicious
Also the 3 knocks on the door when he opened it
@Chance_Rice I think it does to many nowadays. My mind immediately thought that.
@@lis4846Masonic ritual is often copied from Catholic ritual, not the other way around. It’s part of an old ritual consecrating a cathedral. Knocking 3 times on the door with the crozier is laying claim to the building.
Montreal's St. Joseph's Oratory dominating the city has a very strange little cage behind the altar with bizarre structures right under the cupola. Very spooky.
At about 4:30 the immage in the upper left hand side is St John the Baptist, where my wife and i were received into Holy Orthodoxy!
I thought it was becoming a Mosque and no one in France was realising…
Your Hagia Sofia, for your pride, sins and irreverence to Saint Peter and Saint Paul, is actually a...Mosque.
Well done Orthodoxy
@@celtoroma4013you had me with “pride and sins”, but you lost me at “irreverence to saints Peter and Paul.” The patrons of my Parrish are saints Peter and Paul, so this is quite interesting to me. Can you expand on that? What did the church in Constantinople did to dishonor saints Peter and Paul in particular?
Yes, no permanent seating, so... That also allows it to be a multi-purpose event center.
@@celtoroma4013 well they rightfully didn't submit to the absurd dictates of the Papist terror and regime invented using forged canon law (pseudoisidorian dectretals) also who destroyed Constantinople in 1204 causing much more damage than the Turks ?
@@celtoroma4013no matter how much you want to act like a crusader you can’t bring the pre Vatican 2 church back.
My immediate impression when I saw the altar was, "That's upside down."
I tend to be open minded to other forms of gnosis - empiricism is not the only way. Certain world events strike as being symbolic and contrived - we’re not stupid, we know when someone is communicating to us. Notre Dame felt like a message was being sent - for sure. We all know a point was being made.
The first thing that altar made me think of in the way it stands out so unnaturally was Robert E. Howard's horror story "The Black Stone"
For the vestments, need some work but the new vestments were suppose to represent surviving or come back from the fire. The altar needs work because it doesn’t work aesthetically with the Cathedral.
Interesting parallel in book, ‘the sphere and the labyrinth’ by Tafuri, regarding the groundbreaking design for an alter, I think by Bernini, which ushered in the renaissance.
Read it decades ago but can revisit it and précis if interested.
I read in a National Geographic article that the designer of the altar, Guillaume Bardet, 'searched for shapes that felt simple and immutable.'
The article goes on to say:
'The bronze altar is massive and looks rooted to the spot, yet its curves sides evoke a pair of uplifted arms. The hope is that it will spea not only to the faithful but also to the large number of tourists who are unfamiliar with Catholicism or even Christianity. "They too have to understand," Bardet said. "They have to understand that we're talking about the sacred."'
The altar is similar to the one in Richard Meier's modernist "Jubilee Church". Definitely looks out of place in a traditional building.
Thank you
That altar although it’s a monstrosity doesn’t look stable either. Looks like it could rock at any minute.
I started crying too. And I just, to date, cannot pin point what was it. Maybe several things alltogether
There should havd been no compromise on the altar whatsoever. Its central to every important ritual that takes place in the Cathedral.
“And if you make Me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of hewn stone; for if you use your tool on it, you have profaned it.”
Exodus 20:25
Il ne suffit pas de citer. Il faut expliquer les justifications de cette interdiction ! Mais les connaissez vous ?... De toute façon, cet autel n'est pas en pierre, so...
Jonathan, you need to get into architecture and build new cathedrals.
As far as the most generous interpretation goes, I'm not sure it should be given. I think the altar clearly is a poke in the eye. But maybe not the triumphant "we won" poke in the eye as you've said. More like the last gasps of something that will inevitably lose, kicking and screaming on its way out. As Fr. Brown said here in the comments, Catholics who are actually going to church on Sunday are generally trending in the camp that are quite uncomfortable with things like this, whether they know why or not. Also you should have Fr. Brown on the show. Would be a great chat!
even before fire, it was already modern, minimalistic design. I’ve been always viewing Notredame as the building which wants to embrace new things and new thoughts too, rather than staying musem-like all the time. when it’s representing the identity of Paris itself, isn’t it even right to have new things also in it ? I don’t know. Not all churchrs have to be like San Giovanni in Laterano.
The symbol of Paris is a ship, that could be an allusion for the altar design.
Our dining table at home (passed down) has this shape basically, though the arms lifting the table are grounded securely on a horizontal base.
A similar design was used in a restored Catholic church here. The priest explained the supports were of the table were meant to represent arms lifted up in prayer.
Symbolism is jarring if not imbued with the right content, as in freemasonry. The instinctive response is one of revulsion.
Also interesting to note that if you think of the world as a sphere, then based on the setup of this altar, it places the sacrifice of the Mass directly in the center of the Earth- the pit of hell
Modernist hell
I saw a bowl. Which, I'm not catholic, I don't understand the depth or weight of these symbols but preparing the sacrament in a bowl is a very strange message.
Progress is almost like a ravenous hunger that eats but is never filled.
A guy in EWTN pointed out that the secular French govt, historically anti Catholic, wanted the Church built as it was but it was the actual Church officials and clergy who green lit the altar. Very sad
Interesting that you would have felt weird about the fire at Notre-Dame. There is no way a simple cigarette but could have ignited ils wood that is so dense it practically cannot catch fire. That very night it was deemed to be an accident. I don’t know if you saw Macron’ grin that night. Gives you chills. We are not hearing much about the official enquiert (which will probably stick to the accident thesis). Many specialists (conspiracy theorists, of course) posit the presence if a fire accelerant. Indeed a few months before the fire, a company by the name of Aubriat sprayed “fungicide” all over the the “forêt”, as the rafters are known even though fungus have never been an issue. That company refuses to answer questions. The head of the reconstruction project, general Georgelin, died “accidentally” while hiking. According to a former culture minister under Macron Roselyne Bachelot, Brigitte Macron wanted to replace Viollet-le-Duc’s steeple with a modern steeple with two golden spheres at its base. At this moment Macron wants to replace the old stained glass windows with modern ones. I understand you don’t like the new altar. Neither do I. It is actually a middle finger to the Catholics. My understanding is that an alter should be made of wood, not metal. As to the three steps leading up to it, it mirrors the steps to a masonic altar. Indeed the new altar is reminiscent of the masonic altar in the temple of the Grand Orient de France in Paris. Macron was not supposed to give a speech in the cathedral (1905 law of separation between church and state, tradition and respect - not even St Louis who brought back the crown of thorns, our kings or Napoleon for that matter, even though he crowned himself emperor in that sacred space gave speeches). Some of his verbiage contained masonic expressions. As an aside, there is a close connection between French politics and freemasonry. (Beware the rabbit hole if you decide to research this). The new tabernacle is pretty much shaped like a coffin. At the opening mass the clergy were clothed like clowns, not according to liturgical colors. Cacophony resounded from the magnificent organ. The Macrons peacocked up the central aisle as if they owned the place, In my mind the cathedral has been desecrated. The smoke and tears and prayers of centuries have been scrubbed off the walls to leave them white and bright and soulless, and the sacred light that shone through the darkness has been usurped and corrupted, in by a sterile harshness that is no longer the exclusive domain of spirituality directed by impure hearts (nothing against the workers and craftsmen and artists who probably poured their hear into their sacred work).
Alter at least looks easy to remove for when SSPX takes over in the return
The altar looks like brothers Grimm had designed it, a cooking pot.
Honestly Jonathan, if all your criticism of the restoration of one the -if not the- most important works of art of Western Christiany is the fact that the altart feels wobbly, I would consider that a victory. You are cherry picking at this point.
Do you guys remeber some of the early projects that were proposed? The glass ceiling with the spire, the steel skyscrapper-like spiral... They where horrendous and that would have truly been a desecration of the space. Without entering into the dimbolic elements, for ehich I'm not at all ready to tackle, just imagine the logistical nightmare for the conservation of the interior of the cathedral with a glass roof creating a greenhouse effect THERE.
As you all can see, cooler heads prevailed and the restoration eas incredibly respectful. We should give credit where credit is due and recognize that the French state and the Archdiocese of Paris did a fantastic job in both preserving and o/recreating the state of the building before the burning and btinging back the original vision and intention of the buinding, connecting the mundane world with the Heavens through a luminous, colourful and light buinding, something that had been lost due to the grime and the inevitable passing of time.
Again, if your biggest critique of the whole thing is a poorly chosen altar, I consider it a compkete success. If anything, I would say that you havent looked well enough into the aituation because what is truly tragic is the artificial ilumination of the cathedral. If you guys search pictures of the interior after the restoration you will see that it is too white, it feels like a bathroom at times. It should have been more orange, which resembles the natural color of fire and creates a more mystical, warmer and private environment.
2001 space odyssey
Thank you for this interesting video on the new altar.
The French are not very shocked by the new liturgical furniture. Personally I find that the line adopted is very pure.
There are six ideas that emerge from this form
The polished stone of Abraham's sacrifice
The hull of Noah's ship that saves the world from the flood
The inverted shape of the cathedral's vaults which represent the heavens. Here the inverted shape of the vaults would signify the presence of Jesus on earth.
The shape of the altar is similar to that of the baptistery which is now at the entrance to the cathedral. The nave which separates the baptistery from the altar is the path that the Christian must make every day and which is also the path that the Christian must make from baptism to communion.
And the most beautiful image that I have in my head since the Archbishop of Paris consecrated the altar is this chalice shape that the altar has. The chalice hugs the altar at the time of the Eucharist and for me it is absolutely magnificent.
The altar seems to rest in a fragile balance as if faith also had this fragility but perhaps it is also the fragile repentance that we all have as we are sinners.
Thanks for sharing. I think the French take or ‘reasoning’ you have given makes sense.
However they got it wrong and by this notion have been rather selective about the ‘specific instructions’ god gave to build his sacred space in the Old Testament.
Do we want to follow Gods specific instruction? Or do we want to decide for ourselves?
it's also inverted from the shape you mentioned at the beginning. the dome (heaven) is below the square (earth). disturbing when you consider your imagery.
on the other hand it could be trying to portray a cup.
Instability of the shape doesn't bring calm or order. It creates chaos. If columns were added on the corners then it turns into a basin. A basin could be considered stable but it also intones being filled up. Which makes man above the filling up. Or it can be considered to be underneath which intones below the earth, which is also below man and symbolizes the underworld. Just my impressions.
I am not subscribed to Symbolic World , but I am your Patreon subcsriber. Can we also put questions on Q&A?
Have you read Choice Architecture by Avani Parikh and Prashant Parikh?
Don’t know what they were doing with that altar. Took away completely from the statue at the back. I looked up the aisle once and your eyes were drawn to the back. Not like that now. Monstrosity in the middle.
This made me incredibly sad. Then angry. The question I have now is ‘What can be done’? Can we write or petition to have it changed? Is there a petition?
Yes. The enemies of Christ wrestled & won control over the altar.
Between the bizarre childlike vestments & the rite attended by the enemies of Christ and peace, the reopening of ND was as disturbing as the fire.