The Restoration of Notre Dame - Did They Get It Right?

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ม.ค. 2025

ความคิดเห็น • 716

  • @CarcharodonMeg
    @CarcharodonMeg หลายเดือนก่อน +340

    Important: Everything about Notre-Dame is miraculous and a whitepill, from its original construction to the way that its most precious treasures were somehow spared in the 2019 fire (and the fact it didn't utterly collapse) to the way that the secular and currently totally non-functional French government shepherded a rebuilding process that drew on the depth and height of the remaining genius of medieval craftsmanship right at a moment when it would seem poised to be lost forever, and did so in record time.
    Any "unfortunate" aesthetic choices (incongruous altar, over-bright lighting) are of the rather superficial sort that can be easily reversed in a generation or two once a certain tendency has worked its way fully out of the system.
    On the scale of choices that will matter in another 1,000 years, the good guys won. GLORY TO GOD.

    • @josiahalexander5697
      @josiahalexander5697 หลายเดือนก่อน +14

      Seriously! I feel like it just burned down. It was reconstructed in record time.

    • @CarcharodonMeg
      @CarcharodonMeg หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Joe-sg9ll ...ok?

    • @CarcharodonMeg
      @CarcharodonMeg หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Joe-sg9ll What?

    • @Smashdalipz
      @Smashdalipz หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      I mean I’m sure that’s what they said for the many Churches that were restored and preserved during Islamic rule of Byzantine, up until the Caliphate destroyed them/converted them to mosques. I’m sure the same goes for the Churches & Monasteries that faced the same fate during the reformation, various revolutions, industrialization etc. in the West.

    • @anastasiarogich7839
      @anastasiarogich7839 หลายเดือนก่อน +16

      Fantastically written. Great point. It’s incredible what they did.

  • @Aspiring3033
    @Aspiring3033 หลายเดือนก่อน +210

    It is also worth noting that the Arch bishop had a huge fight to keep the church the way it was as in France it is the state & not the Catholic Church that owns the buildings. I think he did an amazing job to keep so much only giving way in the altar & vestments (horrible) which can easily be changed in the future.

    • @DIOGENEShound
      @DIOGENEShound หลายเดือนก่อน +23

      It could have been more of a post modern monstrosity that's for sure.

    • @St.MartinofToursPrayToGodForUs
      @St.MartinofToursPrayToGodForUs หลายเดือนก่อน +26

      At the end of the whole restoration project, the French state told the archbishop "here are the keys to your church, you can have them back." And the archbishop said something like "I never lost the keys!"
      I'm hearing this second, or third hand, so who knows how all of that went down. But, the archbishop was pretty firm in his authority over the church.

    • @silvinasi
      @silvinasi หลายเดือนก่อน +14

      @@St.MartinofToursPrayToGodForUs the way I heard the story is that Macron wnated to do all kinds of ceremonies inside the church to puff his ego, one of them being the "handing back the keys" to the Arbishop. He said no to that, with those words: I never lost the keys.

    • @St.MartinofToursPrayToGodForUs
      @St.MartinofToursPrayToGodForUs หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      @silvinasi ok, I think your version is right. It might be a case of the game of telephone.

    • @DIOGENEShound
      @DIOGENEShound หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      @@silvinasi macron is... awful...

  • @MissingTheMark
    @MissingTheMark หลายเดือนก่อน +60

    On the plus side, a decent altar cloth could easily fix the visual shape.

    • @reginamemoriesforever-vc8ql
      @reginamemoriesforever-vc8ql หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      Agree that modernist atrocity needs to be covered

    • @reginamemoriesforever-vc8ql
      @reginamemoriesforever-vc8ql หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Agree that modernist atrocity needs to be covered

    • @rwd1968
      @rwd1968 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      So practical, that's a great suggestion :)

    • @squizza28
      @squizza28 หลายเดือนก่อน

      You don't need an altar. Just a table. That's all the Lord needed for his meal.

    • @MissingTheMark
      @MissingTheMark หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      @@squizza28 An altar is a table, just a table with a special purpose: to offer sacrifice.

  • @MithikYT
    @MithikYT หลายเดือนก่อน +76

    Thank you for this analysis and bringing this to light. I'm just a 25-year-old Floridian, newly married construction worker: when I first saw the altar, I was immediately struck by its odd existence within the space

    • @thomasvanantwerp728
      @thomasvanantwerp728 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      To me, this new altar looks like one that would be used in the worship of Satan. There is nothing about it to indicate that it is consecrated to Christian worship or to the offering of the Holy Mass.

    • @juliablom3461
      @juliablom3461 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      It looks like a witches cauldron. Horrible😒

    • @itsmelorijayne
      @itsmelorijayne หลายเดือนก่อน

      Become Orthodox ☦️

    • @Impaled_Onion-thatsmine
      @Impaled_Onion-thatsmine หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Blacksmithing obelete, advanced painting obelete, woodworking obselte anti baroque renessaince

  • @eldugar_ichthus
    @eldugar_ichthus หลายเดือนก่อน +128

    Da Vinci said that an oval shape in a picture stands out of its own accord. This altar is half an oval ... with the same effect. It stands out because of its shape and also, in its minimalism, there is no resonance between it and the rest of the architecture. It is like a blot that draws the eye, while at the same time the eye wants to repudiate it. It makes for uneasy viewing-one is not invited into worship but irritated into an intellectual itchiness.

    • @jhappster245
      @jhappster245 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Sort of looking at that serpent raised on a stick back in the day

    • @oekmama
      @oekmama หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      Agree. There’s something about rounding off a cube… that feels wrong in giving up the stability.

    • @Christus-totalis
      @Christus-totalis หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      your comment made me think of UFOs for some reason, uneasy ovals ... interesting

    • @johncharleson8733
      @johncharleson8733 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Excellent critique.

    • @ansielubbeprosser9072
      @ansielubbeprosser9072 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Well said.

  • @copperspartan1643
    @copperspartan1643 หลายเดือนก่อน +84

    If the dome/curve represents heaven and the square represents earth, doesn’t that alter have the whole cosmos turned on its head?

    • @pierceh.5670
      @pierceh.5670 หลายเดือนก่อน +16

      Good observation whether intentional or otherwise

    • @daddycool228
      @daddycool228 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

      Good point. And heads are not for standing on

    • @kevinquinnkelly
      @kevinquinnkelly หลายเดือนก่อน +9

      Symbolism happens!

    • @papercut7141
      @papercut7141 หลายเดือนก่อน +15

      Glad someone else noticed. They toppled the dome and are eating from it.

    • @stevencooper3202
      @stevencooper3202 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Yes

  •  หลายเดือนก่อน +94

    Either they don’t understand anything or they do understand everything.

    • @lukeviolini9522
      @lukeviolini9522 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Very astute actually

    • @nanthilrodriguez
      @nanthilrodriguez หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      @@lukeviolini9522 Your mom is astute

    • @linkdude64
      @linkdude64 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      They were smart enough to understand restoring everything else.

    • @Thyalwaysseek
      @Thyalwaysseek หลายเดือนก่อน

      They understand everything, this rebuilding of the temple heralds the antichrists finally taking full control of the world in the Vatican Jubilee year.

    • @hellomate639
      @hellomate639 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Consciously they understand nothing, unconsciously they understand everything.
      Speaking as a former nihilist here.

  • @brentbrandon1062
    @brentbrandon1062 หลายเดือนก่อน +22

    I'm a traditional Catholic and personally, I love the high altars. I'm lucky enough to go to one of the most beautiful churches here in Cincinnati. You walk inside and you definitely feel like you've stepped back in time to the middle ages. It's magnificent. Look up Immaculate Conception Catholic Church in Norwood (Cincinnati), OH. I've prayed at that altar many times and it's a foretaste of Heaven. God bless you all.

    • @MicahGlasser
      @MicahGlasser หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      I've seen pictures. Beautiful church

    • @squizza28
      @squizza28 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Our Lord just had a table.

    • @davidandbernadettegockowsk9077
      @davidandbernadettegockowsk9077 26 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@squizza28 He actually has altars all around the world.

  • @AntonandSinan
    @AntonandSinan หลายเดือนก่อน +29

    I have attended two Mass services this week in Notre-Dame as I live here, and while I see why you would have this reaction, this is honestly something that didn’t even bother me at all as it is a great improvement over the altar we had prior to the fire, which was very modern on its own albeit being very rectangular. Also, remember that the symbol of Paris is a ship. Maybe they drew inspiration from there too…
    What I would like to add is that I think the restauration was done with impeccable attention to detail and with grand respect to the structure and interior finishings. The image you show is a little biased as in reality the choir is not this bright and while the whole cathedral does indeed look brighter than prior to the fire, its lighting is done very well and the mood it sets varies between the Mass ans just regular visits. It is much darker in real life. I think the lighting will remain dimmer once this Octave week ends.
    The altar is actually not the only item of furniture that was updated, the baptismal font as well as chairs and the grand chairs of the clergy were all done together. I find them to be very fitting as they let the rest of the cathedral shine while remaining humbly in the background.
    Is it modern? Yes it is, but I don’t think it’s bad at all as it leaves its humble imprint for the future generations to see.
    What I love the most about Notre-Dame reopening is the amount of people that have come back to pray and worship God. It is truly magical how many people it draws in and not just for visits, but for actual services.
    In short, I love how this restoration has been done, and I was very worried prior to seeing it in person. You’ve got to see it in person to truly appreciate the work and the heart that has been poured into this cathedral.

  • @lancep994
    @lancep994 หลายเดือนก่อน +26

    The world is a rectangle with a dome over it. So that dome is the world upside down.

    • @emilymiller1792
      @emilymiller1792 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Apt, considering all the inversions and other things that seem upside-down about the world right now.

    • @squizza28
      @squizza28 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Yeh, what a nuts statement that was!

    • @lancep994
      @lancep994 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Also, if the dome from above is the heavens meeting/covering the earth, then the dome from below is....

    • @Iwontusethisevenonce
      @Iwontusethisevenonce หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Yes, it's a complete inversion of the pattern, and basically pointing down to the underworld, and drawing our attention in exactly the opposite direction of everything else, which is up to the heavens...

  • @JuditHerman
    @JuditHerman หลายเดือนก่อน +57

    I honestly thought it was the christening basin .

    • @GrandmaTudi
      @GrandmaTudi หลายเดือนก่อน

      LOL when I saw it I thought that too and at the same time I thought, good thing the Catholics aren't dunkers as a baby could slip away and drown if it were just swooshed by someone standing outside that monstrosity LMAO

    • @ansielubbeprosser9072
      @ansielubbeprosser9072 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Me too!

    • @denisjackson8310
      @denisjackson8310 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Baptismal Font

    • @erikriza7165
      @erikriza7165 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      me too. i thought it was the Batismal Font.

    • @dawncrandall5525
      @dawncrandall5525 หลายเดือนก่อน

      me too

  • @FrJohnBrownSJ
    @FrJohnBrownSJ หลายเดือนก่อน +86

    This style is becoming popular in lots of old traditionally designed and decorated Catholic Churches - not the shape necessarily, but the style (check out the new altar in the Gesu in Rome which is square, but you'll still hate it). It's a representation of the fashion of modern Western Europe. They see fashion as a genuine expression of the culture. And they see the altar style as representing the people. It's like saying "We aren't those superstitious old-fashioned people we once were, full of embarrassing notions of crusades and colonies... We are a refined people now, able to see beauty in geometric perfection and skill in modern building techniques. So our altar will be represent that." It's sad, really. I don't know any Catholic who goes to Church on Sundays who likes this direction. The sense of the faithful is that preserving that rare beauty of old is what we need now.

    • @julioc.zuleta8057
      @julioc.zuleta8057 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Nor even our most "name-only catholics" like this, nobody likes it.
      90% of Catholics hate all the modernist art

    • @VACatholic
      @VACatholic หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I think you should be careful with what you're saying, because you're insinuating the Bishops and Priests who celebrate Mass at these Churches aren't a "Catholic who goes to Church on Sundays", and that's probably not what you mean.

    • @tomvanacht3223
      @tomvanacht3223 หลายเดือนก่อน

      For sure those catholics are also reluctant to celebrate mass at such an obscenity. Unless they are more loyal to some masonic loge than Rome. The smoke of satan has entered the church. We should fight for our tradition. Chartres sonne, Chartres t'appelle, gloire honneur au Christ-Roi!

    • @kyledawson4535
      @kyledawson4535 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Unfortunately modernism has also crept into the orthodox church, much less then any other Christian traditions.but still the new St.nicolas that was rebuilt at ground zero of 9/11 attack is monstrous. It's everything modern Americans want but not what they need.

    • @julioc.zuleta8057
      @julioc.zuleta8057 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      @VACatholic hearing the ideas a lot of them have, I do not think a lot of them are correct in the doctrine of the Catholic Church

  • @lindaphillips4646
    @lindaphillips4646 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

    THANK YOU, JONATHAN..
    AM GRATEFUL TO SEE THIS.

  • @blakebogstie6020
    @blakebogstie6020 หลายเดือนก่อน +34

    My first thought was that the alter is an inverted pyramid. My second thought was that Dante's hell has the shape it does because it's a inverted and hollow holy mountain.

    • @vimalpatel4060
      @vimalpatel4060 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Thats an interesting thought,
      Blake..
      An interted holy mountain, just now I was watching Lion king, and pride rock looks like an inverted holy mountain, in the reign of Scar..

    • @CitronCassis
      @CitronCassis หลายเดือนก่อน

      The symbol of Paris is ship very similar to the altar. It’s a design which is very parisian. The color is better than the previous one which was really modern. When you visit, it blends in the décoration of the cathedral.
      I am not a fan but it somehow works. You need to see it by yourself.

    • @Iwontusethisevenonce
      @Iwontusethisevenonce หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Yes, it's a complete inversion of the pattern, and basically pointing down to the underworld, and drawing our attention in exactly the opposite direction of everything else, which is up to the heavens...

  • @ArchiHBaxter
    @ArchiHBaxter หลายเดือนก่อน +11

    Thank you Johnathan for all you do. So grateful for an influence as insightful and passionate as you are for our faith!

  • @gspolima
    @gspolima หลายเดือนก่อน +11

    Thanks for the insight Johnathan! One suggestion if I may: the microfone is very good, but there is lot of echo and reverb, which can be fixed by fine-tuning the mic's config. If you get someone who knows how to do it, it will sound phenomenal.

  • @silvinasi
    @silvinasi หลายเดือนก่อน +14

    My take on it? Thank God the French government plans did not destroy Notre Dame. The bishop had to fight tooth and nail, but he (mostly) prevailed. The altar can be fixed by the next (and better) generation. The awful chasubles will eventually go back to the 70's, from where somehow they escaped, and go into oblivion. But the magnificence of the space was preserved, as were the holy relics. A miracle in itself.

    • @thekingsfighter
      @thekingsfighter หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Amen to the Holy relics.

  • @herbalannie7707
    @herbalannie7707 หลายเดือนก่อน +16

    So true to the name of your channel "the symbolic world". Thank you for your explanation of the shapes of the altar and the domes. I hated when the priest started facing the people at the altar. Telling my age. It seemed more sacred and secret. The priest was focused and not distracted by facing out. It felt like we were participating and being led. Not being entertained by facing front. A show. Now we are showing the instability of the church!

    • @tomredd9025
      @tomredd9025 หลายเดือนก่อน

      A ritual is the Re-Presentation of the action of the Deity that brought about the Universe. A return (and it is a return) to facing the people is a return to an ancient fuller understanding of the Mass as the Last Supper made real for His people, an actual participation in the Heavenly Banquet on the First Holy Thursday. As Jesus faced his Apostles, so Jesus, in his persona of the priest faces his apostles, the congregation. It never made sense to me to have the priest pray to the wall. The Father is everywhere. To me it makes so much more sense to pray to the Father together. I often wonder, how the ancient Tradition of the facing the people was lost. God bless you.

    • @simonepalmanshofer8965
      @simonepalmanshofer8965 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      that’s just not true. ancient tradition was always to face „away“ from the people. because of the reason you stated actually. to show the common goal of all in the church (even the priest) which is the sacrifice we offer to god together. the priest being turned around to the crowd makes him the center of attention - which is wrong

    • @dominiquepeytraud406
      @dominiquepeytraud406 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I agree

  • @michellaboureur7651
    @michellaboureur7651 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    There has been a thrilling documentary filmed for French tv, which will undoubtedly soon be translated into English, about the whole prowess of ND’s salvage and restoration, from the immediate aftermath of the fire through to the reopening ceremony. Ancient craftsmanship and the most advanced technologies were concurrently used to bring forth such an amazing result as well as a new contribution to the history of art and techniques.

  • @williamchrist1617
    @williamchrist1617 หลายเดือนก่อน +24

    Progressivism isn’t about technological change and improvement of agriculture, medicine, or technology in general. So many people are duped into thinking that’s what they mean by progressive which has brought many improvements to society. It rather refers to social change. Of course, some is expected and we all want to improve ourselves and society, but progressivism is change just for the sake of change. Natural change which happens organically is generally fine, but radical or forced change is by definition instability. Which can be seen represented in this “altar.”

    • @DIOGENEShound
      @DIOGENEShound หลายเดือนก่อน

      The progressives we see today is just constrained, attenuated communism.

    • @fegeleindux3471
      @fegeleindux3471 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      ultra progressives and pietistic (online only) rad trads schismatics are both symptoms of the same decay, using planetary symbols both Saturn (the weight of time) and Uranus (constant change and flux or air) can have a bad influence on the way we think if they are not properly integrated.

  • @goldenstarafar
    @goldenstarafar หลายเดือนก่อน +11

    Thank you Jonathan for all that you do

  • @june5527
    @june5527 หลายเดือนก่อน +10

    This altar does not look like an altar but it does look like a receptacle.

    • @johnfisher247
      @johnfisher247 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Half a water melon?

  • @wasumyon6147
    @wasumyon6147 หลายเดือนก่อน +18

    Circling the square?

    • @benisrood
      @benisrood หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      Yes it definitely has a masonic feel

  • @juliamilovat
    @juliamilovat หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    Many thanks for your bringing to consciousness so clearly and accurately what I had subconsciously felt and so turned away from it. You are absolutely correct about this thing conveying unstability as opposed to and emphasied by the surrounding stability of the ancient church.

  • @nickvrutsky
    @nickvrutsky หลายเดือนก่อน

    Thanks!

  • @daniellucas2968
    @daniellucas2968 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    My immediate impression when I saw the altar was, "That's upside down."

  • @RitaHartmann
    @RitaHartmann หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I hope you will do another video about the desecration of organ music that took place at the same time.

  • @troothseeka4116
    @troothseeka4116 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    No matter how much the world wants the church to change, it will never change.

  • @hoobyhoo
    @hoobyhoo หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Thanks for all you do!! I hoped that you, specifically would comment on this!! ❤

  • @daviddanglis7135
    @daviddanglis7135 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    "Why does that look so different from everything else?" It brings to mind the big rectangular object from Stanley Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey, or that strange black thing all over the artwork of Led Zeppelin's Presence album -- it's jarring, it feels imposed upon the surrounding space (and upon us). It's unsettling and might be making demands of us -- sacrifices, but of a new and mysterious kind. It's a beautiful shape nonetheless, and it would have to be, given the circumstances. But yeah, what is it really about?

  • @davidcatabui2018
    @davidcatabui2018 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Idk if the Orthodox Churches have different terminology, but around 7:30 you talk about Ciborium. The canopy over an Altar is called a Baldacchino, and the Ciborium is a vessel that holds the consecrated Eucharist

    • @OrthodoxInquirer
      @OrthodoxInquirer หลายเดือนก่อน

      If you Google it, his definition is correct. Yours is the first definition and his is the second.

    • @davidcatabui2018
      @davidcatabui2018 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @ that's not Roman Catholic terminology at all. The Baldacchino is the canopy over the altar and the Ciborium is a Vessel for the Eucharist. That's simply what the words mean in the Catholic liturgical context

  • @ravencole8727
    @ravencole8727 หลายเดือนก่อน +11

    They're subverting the mountain

  • @wooderice64
    @wooderice64 หลายเดือนก่อน +17

    I'm going to paraphrase what I said on The Symbolic World Forums:
    Every generation has left its mark on Notre-Dame, between the original Medieval people building it for the first time, and the Mays, and Violet-le-Duc, everyone has done something. But not everything is forever. The original Medieval choir screen was lost centuries ago, and parts of it were discovered during restoration. This altar will pass as well. As the centuries roll on, saving the Cathedral from fire and collapse will be the impact our generation leaves on it. Perhaps that too will be symbolic of something?

    • @daddycool228
      @daddycool228 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Fair points. Thanks . I'm not suggesting this was your intention to challenge Jonathan , but I think it's ok for Jonathan to point it out given that's what he does.

    • @johncharleson8733
      @johncharleson8733 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I'll paraphrase my and other's sentiments "It's modernist sh*t meant to both engrandise the usurpers and deflate the faithful; it's a friggin' abomination and an insult to art and God".

  • @noiselesspatient
    @noiselesspatient หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Doesn't the Nave altar also echo the chalice? Very clear when the chalice is raised during the consecration. It also echoes the font, which resembles both an egg and a uterus.

  • @bigman7856
    @bigman7856 หลายเดือนก่อน +10

    I appreciate most of the restoration work. Much of the art has been brought back to life. The colors on the painted walls actually register clearly. I personally like the cleaner look of the stone. Back during the time of christiandome, we actually bothered to clean our churches. Though after decades of neglect we’ve become accustomed to the dingy appearance. Sort of the same way people in the 14th century onward kept statues white rather than how they were in antiquity. The new alter is awful though.

    • @janewilmer6396
      @janewilmer6396 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Altar

    • @bigman7856
      @bigman7856 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @ autocorrect

    • @janewilmer6396
      @janewilmer6396 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @ don’t you hate it😡

  • @jcardenas48292
    @jcardenas48292 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    You know jon is serious when his hair is slicked back

    • @vimalpatel4060
      @vimalpatel4060 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Like symbolic Mafia..

  • @Camdrew98
    @Camdrew98 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the new reliquary for the crown of thorns as well. It reminds me of a lidless eye and of an insect nest at the same time.

  • @S3raphima
    @S3raphima หลายเดือนก่อน +45

    It is an inverted dome... 😢

    • @DagothJab
      @DagothJab หลายเดือนก่อน +21

      That's what I was thinking too, it's a symbol of divine heaven pointing down instead of up.

    • @vincentraddclus9490
      @vincentraddclus9490 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Well, this is a very relevant comment! It shows what's really wrong with this restoration if one is looking for it (for what might be wrong), and probably describes the real motivation behind the restoration.

    • @vincentraddclus9490
      @vincentraddclus9490 หลายเดือนก่อน +14

      Then, this is diabolic.

    • @pierceh.5670
      @pierceh.5670 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@vincentraddclus9490just like modern “culture” and inverted “democratic” (oligarchic) world “dis”order

    • @Thyalwaysseek
      @Thyalwaysseek หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@DagothJab The antichrists razed and then rebuilt their temple, this is symbolic for them taking full power over the world in 2025 year of the Jubilee, nothing good coming for mankind so you better all prepare, knowledge that is not applies is useless.

  • @jacobrogers2214
    @jacobrogers2214 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Johnathan would you ever be interested in analyzing our LDS temples? Or doing an open house?

    • @charlesmendeley9823
      @charlesmendeley9823 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Is Jonathan an expert in Freemasonry?

  • @joycegifford8826
    @joycegifford8826 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Watching the Spire come down on my 55th birthday I sobbed uncontrollably. I have not practiced my faith in decades but it affected me profoundly.

  • @alexslynch
    @alexslynch หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Jonathan, very elucidating video. You ought to reproduce it en français

  • @AskAScreenwriter
    @AskAScreenwriter หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    The first thing that altar made me think of in the way it stands out so unnaturally was Robert E. Howard's horror story "The Black Stone"

  • @tianamenezes7548
    @tianamenezes7548 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

    You're so right about how revolutionary and spiteful this new Altar seems. My fear is that progressives in the church will be "inspired" by this and want to transform their churches, too, because "Notre Dame did it!". I mean, it's bad enough that the current design of most Norvus Ordo churches look like an auditorium, but at least their altars have been traditionally square. Now, I see the worst happening.

    • @jbell0243
      @jbell0243 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      The picnic table altar that was there before the fire was also ghastly. This was absolutely a win. That thing can be rolled out when fire again descends onto the faithful of France

    • @Mik3xcellence
      @Mik3xcellence หลายเดือนก่อน

      He can be right all
      He likes he isn’t Catholic so his opinion doesn’t mean jack shit

  • @kamil-michalak
    @kamil-michalak หลายเดือนก่อน +10

    14:15 Not during Vatican 2, but after Vatican 2. If you read the V2 constitution on the liturgy "Sacrosanctum Concilium", you won't find request for turning the priest to the people. The reform after the council basically ignored almost everything what the council said.

    • @tomredd9025
      @tomredd9025 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I love a return to ancient tradition of facing the people at Mass. After all the Mass IS the representation of the Last Supper and Jesus faced the Apostles then when he offered his Body and Blood to the Father. God Bless you. BTW, I really did not like the altar either.

    • @microcolonel
      @microcolonel หลายเดือนก่อน

      The presbyter is not Christ.
      ​@@tomredd9025

  • @juliepaine532
    @juliepaine532 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Nicely explained. Thank you, Jonathan.

  • @robertortiz-wilson1588
    @robertortiz-wilson1588 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Thank you for this video. Very well said and explained.

  • @lucastark1784
    @lucastark1784 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    I read in a National Geographic article that the designer of the altar, Guillaume Bardet, 'searched for shapes that felt simple and immutable.'
    The article goes on to say:
    'The bronze altar is massive and looks rooted to the spot, yet its curves sides evoke a pair of uplifted arms. The hope is that it will spea not only to the faithful but also to the large number of tourists who are unfamiliar with Catholicism or even Christianity. "They too have to understand," Bardet said. "They have to understand that we're talking about the sacred."'

    • @thekingsfighter
      @thekingsfighter หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I also see a receptive shape, receiving the Grace of God in the Eucharist.

  • @a_blueridgeCatholic
    @a_blueridgeCatholic หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    I was sure you were going to talk about the altar as a tomb… The early masses celebrated on tombs in the catacombs, the bones of saints in altars, the sacrifice being offered that is risen from the tomb…

    • @tomredd9025
      @tomredd9025 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      That is an excellent point. Thank you.

    • @florianartus3231
      @florianartus3231 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Taking also into account that this altar is a shell for relics from 5 saints.

    • @ruthsmith3219
      @ruthsmith3219 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Praying to Idols is a sin ,read the 2nd Commandment
      Nobody will enter into Gods Kingdom not keeping his
      10 Commandments

  • @akgov19
    @akgov19 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    The altar looks like brothers Grimm had designed it, a cooking pot.

  • @dalecaldwell
    @dalecaldwell หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    You might find the altar at St. Hedwig in Berlin a particularly fascinating thing. It is integrated into the style of the whole building, but . . . .

    • @trosenthal3711
      @trosenthal3711 หลายเดือนก่อน

      That one is arguably much worse and a massive punch in the face to the Silesian refugees of the post-WW2 era (St. Hedwig is their patron) who thought that while they might lose their homes and their lives, nobody could take their faith. Now look what Modernism has done to their ancestors and their churches.

  • @owenchubb5449
    @owenchubb5449 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    My interpretation of the inverted boat shape is that the ground does not function as the base of the altar, but what is placed atop the altar, that is, the Eucharist. The Eucharist is the foundation of the altar and everything else in the world and radiates out from the Host.
    If I am being generous.

  • @mrjustadude1
    @mrjustadude1 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    At about 4:30 the immage in the upper left hand side is St John the Baptist, where my wife and i were received into Holy Orthodoxy!

  • @user-zl4it4hi1m
    @user-zl4it4hi1m หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    The altar looks like a cauldron 😮

    • @geraldinegonsalvez5804
      @geraldinegonsalvez5804 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Quite true with respect to the shape and the colour 🙏

  • @studioz2651
    @studioz2651 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Montreal's St. Joseph's Oratory dominating the city has a very strange little cage behind the altar with bizarre structures right under the cupola. Very spooky.

  • @FahlosueeWoWStream
    @FahlosueeWoWStream 28 วันที่ผ่านมา

    I'm also gonna add, when you see something rounded like a bowl from the bottom, it comes across as a single object containing everything within. It is closed off, there is no more space to hold anything else. It feels apart. The square corners pointing outward is inviting and encompassing of all, infinite. This rounded altar is not inviting at all.

  • @gianlucac.v1795
    @gianlucac.v1795 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    The national congress in Brazil has the same type of "bowl" modern architecture, and the blueprint was "lost".

  • @clentlabauve1288
    @clentlabauve1288 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    If a dome above pointing up is heaven and earth meeting. Then what does an upside down dome that points down mean? I know it's not actually a dome, but from the side it looks that way and it's definitely curved downwards.

  • @amperez7636
    @amperez7636 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    What comes to mind when seeing that first image of the priest over the altar is the word Wizard.

    • @leeharvey8544
      @leeharvey8544 หลายเดือนก่อน

      And the altar looks like a cauldron

  • @katherineheller4038
    @katherineheller4038 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I enjoy your analysis so much.

  • @Petter_GM
    @Petter_GM หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Great video as always Jonathan. I don’t know if it was intentional or not but the audio of the video sounds like you are in the Notre Dame cathedral

  • @kierankilcommons5797
    @kierankilcommons5797 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Besides being stable as is the earth the altar represents Christ, who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Thanks Jonathan.

  • @Elena-zw3ub
    @Elena-zw3ub หลายเดือนก่อน

    they probably explain the shape of this new altar as a reference to a chalice, albeit with a rectangular top, a mix between a table and a chalice

  • @loganw1232
    @loganw1232 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    For the vestments, need some work but the new vestments were suppose to represent surviving or come back from the fire. The altar needs work because it doesn’t work aesthetically with the Cathedral.

  • @ariss2526
    @ariss2526 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Also significant is the placing of the names of those who contributed to the restoration in the rooster at the top of the spire. It seems to me like the restoration is lifted up and celebrated as the highest aspect of the building.

  • @DawnTynerJones
    @DawnTynerJones หลายเดือนก่อน +157

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    • @DawnTynerJones
      @DawnTynerJones หลายเดือนก่อน

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    • @ShewmakeCornelio
      @ShewmakeCornelio หลายเดือนก่อน

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      @DawnTynerJones หลายเดือนก่อน

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      @DawnTynerJones หลายเดือนก่อน

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    • @JoelRaymond-mk5ew
      @JoelRaymond-mk5ew หลายเดือนก่อน

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  • @carterellsworth7844
    @carterellsworth7844 26 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Also interesting that the modification was done on the bottom part of the altar. Like theyre "under"mining the stability of church from "under" our detection

  • @ProjectMirai64
    @ProjectMirai64 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Great video !

  • @_meh_whatever
    @_meh_whatever หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    The altar reminds me of a small boat, similar to the shape of the one on the coat of arms of Paris, and of my capital Lisbon. As a descendent of sailors, a boat to me means alot. It means to me safe haven, the Church itself and the conquering of pagan lands for Christ among and through the chaos of the waves and watery graves.
    I don't know what they intended with this and I don't find it beautiful nor like it personally, but its funny how my brain went to what is most familiar and deepest in my cultural identity to try and comprehend what I was looking at.

  • @linkdude64
    @linkdude64 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    100% agree with your assessment of the altar. I'll quote JP on a psychoanalytic maxim - If you can't determine the motivation, look at the result and infer it from there. You are spot on 100% correct and I immediately had the same sense. We should not be surprised, but speaking for myself, it is still hard to not be sickened.

    • @David-vk5sv
      @David-vk5sv หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      That maxim is jung

  • @JackWebb-x6f
    @JackWebb-x6f หลายเดือนก่อน +8

    Well, maybe it's not intentional but it sure looks like the Moon to me.

    • @florianartus3231
      @florianartus3231 หลายเดือนก่อน

      It is a verycommon representation to see Mary standing on a moon crescent.

  • @PuzzlesC4M
    @PuzzlesC4M หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Does anyone know if there is a relic within the altar, or is it in the floor beneath?

  • @eglaham
    @eglaham หลายเดือนก่อน

    thanks, Jonathan, I had the same reactions. you articulated them perfectly!

  • @mariusrl
    @mariusrl หลายเดือนก่อน

    Hey Jonathan! Big fan of your videos from Romania. You know what I thought of when first seeing this? More of an altar that is emulating Cusanus’ squaring of the circle, in the sense that conceptually it looks like an altar that rests on One Point, as in the origin of the circle, maybe alluding to God, and which transitions toward a square section on top as a way of say that everything that happens on the altar is resting on that Sole Point of origin.

  • @florianartus3231
    @florianartus3231 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    First, on an horizontal axis, the choice of the colour of all the new liturgic furniture matches exactly the dark wooden tint of the historical choir furniture + the simple shapes and absence of decoration on it = it melts with the existing historical arrangement, and doesn't cloud the heritage features at all. Evenmore, seen from the nave, it nearly blends and disappear and make the high altar stand out.
    This effect is reinforced by the curved shape of the new altar which, narrowing the contact with the floor, makes no obstacle for the sight to the high alter. Just compare with the previous rectangular central altar, destroyed when the spire collapsed !
    Then, on a vertical axis, if the rough material (bronze) and the plain shape of the new altar is talking about anchorage, its shape just touching the ground and developing towards the sky is talking about lightness and elevation. Anchorage and elevation at the same time make it a paradoxal, then poetic, object, and i don't think it is uncoherent with christian symbolism.
    Also, if you really want to see it as the representation of something, and if this something is a ship for you... then know that the ship is the verysymbol of the city of Paris, and the "pilier des Nautes" where it comes from was found burried in Notre-Dame's floor, at this veryplace.

    • @francescocantoni5665
      @francescocantoni5665 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      The ship is not only a symbol of the city of Paris but also for the Church itself since St. Peter was a fisherman and a "fisherman of men" (Luke 5:10).
      In my opinion the artifact is elegant but also sober, contemporary but without distracting the attention from the oldest part of the structure.

  • @hpsauce1078
    @hpsauce1078 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    If we are saying that the alter needs to be as stable as possible then i am positing that we make it a tripod

  • @Motomack1042
    @Motomack1042 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I totally feel the same way. This beautiful building which transmits the strength, beauty, and glory of the faith, now has this thing in the middle which is so totally out of place, not only in meaning, but in design as well. That needs to be thrown out and a new alter that fits with the design of the Church and show what the altar represent, the cross and Christ.

  • @中国第一-b3r
    @中国第一-b3r หลายเดือนก่อน +8

    Well the altar can even be seen as an inverted dome, but mb i'm reading too much into it

    • @intheweeds232
      @intheweeds232 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      🎯

    • @Chance_Rice
      @Chance_Rice หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Even if it is, the alter is still modern

    • @David-vk5sv
      @David-vk5sv หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      whether or not its intentional it exists as such and betrays the true feelings of the artist

  • @chadrobert116
    @chadrobert116 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    The baptistère looks great though.

  • @leifkeane
    @leifkeane หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    i was thinking around the alter being an inverted dome of heaven.

  • @medworakowski101
    @medworakowski101 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Thank you for your explanation. I have been struggling with what I saw. Next, maybe you can cover this vestments.

  • @jcv8
    @jcv8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    A dome is also a shape where every line traced from the rim at the bottom lead to the center high above. Your eyesight naturally goes up and gives you a sensation of elevation.
    An inverted "dome" would do the opposite and lead you to the bottom as you try to look a its center. Let's not even mention the fact that this ersatz of an altar mirrors the arches in the back but in a twisted way. Also, the colour of it. I'm so tired of the decisions made in my country…
    Thank you for the video Jonathan.

  • @michaelr.stoddard3391
    @michaelr.stoddard3391 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    IQ Test:
    Which item does not belong? 😨

  • @microcolonel
    @microcolonel หลายเดือนก่อน

    Miraculously it only took 180 years to build in the first place.

  • @lorenzopugliese8964
    @lorenzopugliese8964 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Thanks for making this public. Was curious on your thoughts.

  • @rockshot100
    @rockshot100 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    As a Catholic with both Byzantine and Roman backgrounds, I was probably MORE shocked than you.
    The altar should be the entire focus of the church bldg., ALWAYS the most ornate and dead center in that space (apex?). I thought this was a glitch in the photos, or construction equipment left behind. Maybe something temporary until they finished the real one? The very opposite of what I expected. Compared to the alter at the Vatican, this is beyond just weird and crazy.
    Thank you for mentioning this because I was still perplexed and curious. I kept wondering, "what is it???". Nobody else mentions it.
    I really like it. It is a design triumph. It does EXACTLY what it is supposed to do.
    Within its environs, it clashes to the maximum. With this degree of stark visual discord, nobody could help notice it. It IS understated (and minimalistic) and still commands attention in a quiet way.
    An extremely ornate altar would just blend in with the rest, and not demand attention like this does. I think it is genius. This only emphasizes the entire reason of the bldg. and the mass. This form is certainly not lost among surrounding extremely ornate environ. It gives my eyes a place to rest, and imparts peace, calm and focus, without distraction.
    No, I don't think it symbolizes a ship and is not "wobbly looking", although I see your point.
    Stone that big and heavy doesn't give me that impression, at most it would see-saw, under extreme force, only visually. I see your point of the top being square, but don't completely agree.
    Too many altars have a rectilinear top which mimic most dining tables, like the last supper. To your point, the bottom of the circle could have been flattened a little, so it had more of a solid base to connect it better to the Earth. Maybe? Maybe not?
    Thanks for satisfying my intrigue. Your points are well taken, I just don't agree entirely.

    • @rockshot100
      @rockshot100 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@GabrielMichael43 Thanks, I don't know why it is a secret. Not much info on the whole thing at all. I did see the vestments done for the church. Oh my, what a failure.
      Boring, uninspired, not creative, and actually childish. It is sad. I commented that the fashion designers could have done a competition with them. WE might have got something with some thought put into them.

  • @oekmama
    @oekmama หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    Just looking at the picture, similar shapes pop out at one: the central arch which frames the cross. Below the Pièta, the cross framed by an arch repeats itself. And then this altar spins that motif on its head. Pulling the eye not up to the cross and further up to the heavens, but downward to the curve of where the half-egg shape touches the ground.
    So you’re absolutely right about the altar being a modernist gotcha. Especially after the Paris Olympics earlier in summer.

  • @posthardcoresinger
    @posthardcoresinger หลายเดือนก่อน

    After listening to you I see this altar as placing the "stable" component (the rectangle or square that we can't fully see on top in this case) deliberately ABOVE the dome which normally represents the heavens. When perceived this way you can also see smallness of the dome at the bottom, even though all spheres come to a close like that, in this case you can nearly see the smallest external part which is usually not seen on the other domes you showed (since it's usually hidden or facing away, above the viewpoint, out of reach, in heaven). It feels like symbolic sacrilege, placing the EARTH as priority over the HEAVENS in this case.

  • @demiurgen
    @demiurgen หลายเดือนก่อน

    the new alter of the recently rebuilt interior of the St. Hedwig, Berlin, has the exact same aesthetics of instability and reversal just in plain white. All the interior of the main catholic church of Berlin now looks like an Apple store combined with a waiting area in a train station.

  • @bos3259
    @bos3259 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Interesting parallel in book, ‘the sphere and the labyrinth’ by Tafuri, regarding the groundbreaking design for an alter, I think by Bernini, which ushered in the renaissance.
    Read it decades ago but can revisit it and précis if interested.

  • @josiahalexander5697
    @josiahalexander5697 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    It makes me think of neo-platonism which emphasized the sphere which correlates to the soul. Having the bottom be round communicates a sense of abstraction of the foundation. This parallels modernism which tends to view reality through a psychological lense and understands symbolism as being primarily abstract. This is also consistent with much Roman Catholic theology of the past two centuries which more and more has emphasized something like the Monad as the basis of existence which sustains all unity. Look at thinkers like Richard Rohr and Teilhard De Chardin. With this view, ecumenism is seen as a valuable expression of an underlying unity. But this is something like Origenism plus neo-platonism repackaged. It diminishes boundaries and as it diminishes boundaries, it also diminishes our interior sense of the sacred, the sanctified, the “set apart”. We’ve definitely been witnessing a merge between secular humanism and Christianity. The more Christianity has compromised those ancient fundamental values for modern humanism, the more Christianity has been abstracted til at last all that’s left is a Christianity that functions as a faith-based form of psychological help.
    All of this seems to be because Christians have assumed the values and philosophy of the enlightenment while simultaneously being skeptical about traditional Christian doctrine.

  • @omarmorillo9959
    @omarmorillo9959 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Like others have already commented. It looks like an inversion. It looks like the dome is at the bottom, the earth is above the dome, and the realm of the dead (Sheol) is above the earth. If this is true, what kind of sacrifice is being offered on this altar?

  • @aelbereth6690
    @aelbereth6690 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    I think one reason (maybe not the only reason) the ancient altars were rectangular was to represent the tombs of the early martyrs, upon which the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was celebrated in the catacombs. Hence the inclusion of relics within the altar. The Holy Eucharist is offered over the bones of the saints. And altars should always be constructed of stone, or failing that, wood. Why is this weird "altar" made of bronze?
    Those who have commented that it's like a witches' cauldron are not wrong. For me, the black and white checkerboard floor also stands out and clashes with the quiet soaring stonework of the fabric of the cathedral. It looks masonic. It is masonic.
    The vestments were a mockery, a clown show, that grossly detracted from the beauty and solemnity of the ceremony itself - maybe were intended to undermine it. I'm astonished that the Archbishop permitted such a travesty - but I suspect he was given no choice. He apparently fought hard to retain certain traditional elements, but maybe was forced to concede the choice of vestments to someone else - who used the opportunity to thumb their nose at the Church. The designer was famous for designing outfits for Madonna, Beyoncé and Lady Gaga...that in itself speaks volumes.

    • @Gunnarr123abc
      @Gunnarr123abc หลายเดือนก่อน

      Thank you for pointing out the relics, I agree with your assessment. Many early churches were built on the tombs of martyrs and that can provide more symbolism to the shape of the altar, was hoping it would have been mentioned in the video.

    • @vimalpatel4060
      @vimalpatel4060 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@@Gunnarr123abcWell, now it is sort of mentioned in the catacombs of the video. Sort of..

    • @florianartus3231
      @florianartus3231 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      The new altar does shelter the relics of 5 saints.
      The chessed floor dates back to the early XVIII° century, so long ago from the recent restoration. The "masonic conspiracy" is hilarious.

    • @vimalpatel4060
      @vimalpatel4060 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @florianartus3231 That's useful. Thanks. That means the arch bishop did keep his keys after all,
      Florian..

  • @markab7067
    @markab7067 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I was watching the reopening of the cathedral with all gratitude to Lord and to great achievement of all the tradesmen involved in this magnificent restoration. My joy and gratitude was full until I gradually realized that the core, the depth, the soul of this micro universe is somehow missing. Longer I watched, more weird feelings resulted questioning myself what and why do I’m not getting; I felt farther from holiness than I wanted and expected. I wanted to feel I came home after 5 years, I needed to feel the presence of Holy Spirit, I wanted to hear the organ playing Ave Maria, Gracia Plena, I wanted to see all priests in pure white and with lilies and white roses everywhere …. Not by watching, but only in my heart, kind of privately and secretly i pray and glorify our entire world’s Notre Dame….

  • @schwarzestiefel
    @schwarzestiefel หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    The symbol of Paris is a ship, that could be an allusion for the altar design.

  • @retribution999
    @retribution999 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    There should havd been no compromise on the altar whatsoever. Its central to every important ritual that takes place in the Cathedral.

  • @sinbad5531
    @sinbad5531 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I couldn’t agree more

  • @locutorest
    @locutorest หลายเดือนก่อน

    What are your thought regarding the Altar which the New One replaces?

  • @avvemacke8685
    @avvemacke8685 หลายเดือนก่อน

    There is something wrong with the audio! Some strange echo or reverb glitch. And also on the video of Jonathan, very low res, even on the highest quality of the video!

  • @Joan-ph2es
    @Joan-ph2es หลายเดือนก่อน

    One more thought - the altar is rectangular because it is similar to the mercy seat, the cover to the Ark of the Covenant. It is the place where the blood of the sacrifice is presented/offered to God, the place where God meets the people to deal with guilt and sin.

    • @thekingsfighter
      @thekingsfighter หลายเดือนก่อน

      But as Jonathan pointed out, the top of the altar *is* rectangular. It could still echo the Mercy Seat.

  • @CedarSam
    @CedarSam หลายเดือนก่อน

    Interesting thoughts. I like the altar but then I like modern design. If you look at all the new furnishings together, you see that they all draw the eye upwards. It's a modern interpretation of one of the core principles of gothic architecture.
    I agree that the altar subtly suggests a vessel (the Barque of Peter). Life on earth is indeed a voyage through stormy waters. That is why we must look upward for our true hope.