Drum Overheads - The Weathervane Method
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ส.ค. 2024
- PDF Guides by Weathervane: www.weathervanemusic.org/store
Instead of using two microphones for drum overheads, have you ever tried using three mics in the shape of a triangle?
This technique was developed by a really cool organization called Weathervane Music. They record bands and incubate new music with the help of high end gear and video documentaries. All of it's super well done.
But one technique that I have never seen before is their drum overhead technique. It uses three microphones, and in the shape of a triangle.
Brian McTear, featured in Tape Op Magazine, and Executive Director of Weathervane, has been looking over this episode during our testing and editing to make sure we get the technique right. We sent many emails back and fourth, and I used their PDF Reference as my guide.
To date, Brian says we are the first outside source to replicate the technique that they developed.
It's almost like a Decca Tree (Used in orchestral recordings) but for drum set.
I had my doubts about how well this would work, but I was really surprised. None of the mics are equidistant to the snare, and yet somehow the phase of the snare is still really strong between the mics.
I show in the video how flipping the polarity completely destroys the sound of the snare, and proves how well it works as a system for overhead drum recording.
This episode was a big one. It took me two weeks to test, film, and edit this one together. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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Not only is Ryan a great sound engineer & teacher, but man, he is also a great drummer who can lay down a FAT groove.
I can tell he likes Bonham
Very cool! Nice work!
That sounds amazing. Detailed like close mic, but naturally spacious and cohesive like Glyn Johns.
This was extremely helpful to watch and follow along too! Thank you for all the time and effort you put into making this video! Sounds fantastic and I can't wait to try it out!!
+lukesuperflyjones Thanks!
This is SO invaluable for me! I'm a drummer on a budget who have to work remotely, and while I also did soundboard duty on many shows, I'm not a studio engineer by any mean. This is going to help me upgrade from my current Roland set-up and save quite a lot of time to make everything sounds right! And almost zero phase issues! Brilliant :D
I absolutely love the sound of your kit!
Great video! Thanks for putting it together! Can't wait to try it out!
Such a great demo of this technique ... I have yet to try this but must reserve a session to try this soon!
Judging by how this is set up, I think this may be the most versatile overhead configuration, in my humble opinion! I think, depending on what kind of music you’re mixing, you can leave all the mics in mono or pan the side mics in stereo, and even add close mics for further enhancement! I don’t know if I can quite pull off those tricks with the other overhead configurations. I’m a fan of it!
Great video, thanks so much for the effort! Could you clearify where the pencil condensers are pointing at? Thanks 👍🍻
Love the channel, actually I think it's turning into more of an obsession, so much immediately applicable information. Thank you!
+Serf Crook Dude, made my day!
Dude!
What a great technique!
I will be using it next week recording drums for a ska orchestra!
It is going to take advantage of a great sounding room and the drums are gonna sing!
Thanks a loooooooot!
Sure thing!
Great video! Really got me thinking, thank you. Also (along those lines), I had not thought about how using in-line pads might be cutting the voltage to the phantom power, too. Super interesting!
One thing I've always found fascinating about this technique is that it kind of borrows from George Massenburg's OH method of dividing the kit along the kick/snare axis. The coolest thing about this is that there is actually mic representing that axis sonically. With the Massenburg stuff I've been privy to, he doesn't seem to employ a mic in this position - usually just two SDC overs on either side of the axis. If you'd really like to get crazy, I'd love to hear this OH technique in combination with a Moses Schneider "wurst" mic, or "fat" mic as others refer to it. Could be cool!
That's really interesting. I've done a little bit of the fat/wurst mic a few years ago in a video "Recording drums with one mic" I think it was, and it was that technique.
You did! Which is a great video btw. Did you do it in combination with the Weathervane OH's too though? Cause that's what has my curiosity peaked. I could be crazy, but I feel like the wurst + weathervane OH's could be a monumental coming together of techniques. Some interesting material for a new CSL vid perhaps?
Really cool and well put together!
Thanks Simon!
This is great stuff thanks Ryan! Trying this tomorrow, will let you know how I get on...
Brilliant video. Keep up the great work!
+Anthony Gibney Thanks!
Great vid, just coming back to it now. I have to try this... On an aside, do you have a video about piecing together your kit and decisions made? Would be cool to see...
I like the idea of this, any ideas how it might work with two dynamic mics and a small condenser on the axis? With the bass also mic'd maybe.
Hi Ryan,
Since you've posted this video I've only seen you have been using other methods of overhead recordings for the following videos. What is the reason for not sticking with this technique and why do you use the overhead technique you most often use. Is the the Weathervane Method too time consuming?
We just tried this on one of our recordings. This is the BEST method we have ever seen! EVERY drum comes out- there's no need for any other mics in the toms, snare, or pretty much anywhere else. Who would have guessed? And why didn't we see this a year ago?Trust me when I say, "DO IT THIS WAY." You won't be sorry, at all.
Thanks man! Some very high words there. I personally still use my favorite for overheads, the AEA R88, but this technique gave me the Weathervane sound. There was something to the wide image, but centered low mid overhead spread. I said, "Wow that's the sound".
sounds awesome, dude
Very nice technique for a grate sound. Thanks for sharing your knowledges.
+PurpuraStudios Thanks.
Great series, CSL!
+Newmindcenters.com Thanks!
very helpful video thank you. I do have 1 question. will this same set up work on a 3 tom set up?
I just tried it and it sounds really great! No phasing problems at all!
+Peter Voigtmann Nice! I'm really glad you tried it.
Just got a pair of WA-412's and 414's for my studio,running into an m-32
Hi, happy to meet you Ryan. I found interesting your videos and the logic behind them ( or with them...). For now I only have a question: where can I find the song that open and close your videos? I need to listen to that song, sound very interesting and have a good vibe. Can you help me? Thanks.
This sounds huge Ryan! Could you tell me about your kick drum and high hats in this video? Those are sounds I'm looking to improve and I'm loving the tones in this video. Thanks!
Sounds great, very much Bonham sorta sound once you added in the room mics!
thanks man , looking forward to setting it up today,
Nice, let me know how it goes!
Is this related to the McTear method you mentioned in your first overheads video?
+Luuk Meijwaard Yep! This is the method that I mentioned
What's the name of the ending song?? :O
Yess, very nice sounding, nur where the pencils are facing at? Greets.
Great sounding drums and great video ..... Would the 3 mic/triangle technique work on a bigger kit with 3 rack toms and 2 floor toms ?
You could certainly try it. I think find a center of all the toms is key for this particular technique. So perhaps the center line would go between toms 2 and 3, instead of down over the kick. Just a guess as Brian always records with two toms.
Definitely want to try this - really interesting idea
+JimmersThomas Yeah, it blew my mind when I first pulled up the faders.
Love this technique!
+Shelby Preklas Thanks! Brian and his crew taught me! The triangle idea blew my mind!
Good drumming, great kit, sweet room, natural but fat mic setup. A+
Hello, great work man.
Could you please tell me about your snare/head/tuning.. you've alluded to using ambassadors for batter heads but your snares always sound so dry (in a good way) when hitting rimshots. Mine always sounds ringy whether tuned high or low.
Thanks,
James.
Yeah, I use the snare side heads, which are the real thin ones as you pry know. The bottom head is tighter than the top by about a 5'th or more. The dryness of the drum can be due to the quality of the drum and baring edge. Supraphonics for example sound warm and kinda dryer than some wood drums. I believe this is because the edge is fairly rounded off, compared to a really sharp edge.
Wow really cool technique, would love try this. What were some advantages that noticed over a traditional overhead mic techniques?
Also since the mics are in mono how did you go about panning the three mics?
+Slightly Drowsy The demo in mono was just to show how the mics are interactive and their phase coherancy. For mixing, put the ribbon down the center, and the two SDCs out to the side by about 40 %.
Just want to throw in that your groove is on point man!
+MikleShnikle Glad I choose to go with Rock Beat #28. Was going to do #23
+creativesoundlab hahaha
Awesome! It sounds great.
+George Reagan Thanks!
This technique has a really smooth sound to it. None of the elements of the kit sound muddy or washy but I did notice the floor tom sounding quiet and/or thin. The hi-hat was maybe a bit quiet as well but had a nice character sort of sound to it.
Yeah, this technique really does sound like the Weathervane crew did it. It's really amazing how it doesn't sound like I recorded this.
Hey bro, great video! I have a question tho, is it plausible to get a similar result with a condenser mic set to figure of 8 instead of the ribbon mic and does it make a difference where the two side mics are pointed at? Thanks! :)
+Milan Jejina (Yeqy) I think it would be more important to go after the tonality of a dark mic, rather than the exact polar pattern that you use. For it, the center is dark and picks up the drums. Most LDC will get a touch bright if you put them in Figure 8 mode.
+creativesoundlab Ah, I see... thanks for the tip! :)
Also, I have a cool idea for a video! could you do a shootout between some coles ribbon mics and the rode ntr ribbons? Obviously you would need to get your hands on some coles but just a thought! theres really nothing Ive found on the subject!
thank You!
Great video Ryan. Love the sound, and well ... the simplicity of it. Get the distances/setup right and the drums will mix themselves. What is that kick drum? Looks similar to the one I had in my very first drum set I ever owned about 45 years ago.
+Perry Moyses Those drums are 3 ply Slingerland, which from what I understand is early to mid 70's.
Hey! Great video! Can or have you tried replacing the SDCs with LDCs?
+Daniel Silberman I asked Brian the same question. He said sometimes he would use LDCs instead of SDCs. So use whatever you have.
hey there! awesome video, you've got a new subscriber for sure.
a few questions:
1 - what other mics would you recommend beside the kick drum (bottom snare, room mics, et cetera)
2 - do you have a tutorial on how to mix the audio from this technique? if not, is there a source you could point me in the direction of?
3 - what genres/playing styles (besides say, with a jazz drummer) would you recommend this for?
thanks again for the great content.
This technique can used with about any style of music I guess. I know the Weathervane crew do a lot of rock. I think it matters more about drum selection, and cymbal selection for styles of music.
I've seen a lot of people complaining about how difficult is to position the 3 mics in a equidistant triangle AND measure them with the kick and snare.
Have you tried the same technique without letting the thread slip?
I think the reason it works, is because in three mics you don't need absolute perfect phase, but the pencils add more width if they're just a little bit out, which they are now. It won't collapse in mono, because the ribbon is still there.
+Angelo Boltini Yeah, that's one of the biggest questions on why this works. I wanted to hear for myself on how well this actually works.
+Angelo Boltini - One of the last innovations before we published this was the equilateral triangle, which I haven't been able to make work when treating the sdc's like Recordermans. Our original inspiration was my own misunderstood version of Recorderman that I wanted to insert a middle element into. Later, I realized that the key was to start with the placement of that center element and recreate geometricly something relatively like Recorderman, but not exactly. I ultimately like ours much more than Recorderman. Much bigger and more natural.
does it have to be a ribbon overhead, or could you use something else in place of the ribbon? Im guessing the ribbon was just part of the original sound of the technique?
Look up the NTR's frequency response, it's extended but it's pretty dark, rolling off as much as 10db by 10khz. I have a feeling you could get the same effect with a large-diaphragm condenser (for the extended low end) and a really soft shelving EQ (6db/oct) to make it darker. You might also find that the condenser gives you a better sound without EQ. You won't get the same pickup pattern though.
Problem with ribbon mikes is they can't be used with phantom power on.
Your mixer must have 48v commutable on each input.
I couldn't find the Weathervane PDF. Whats the measurement of the room mics?
I don't have a ribbon but I do have an AKG C414BULS that I can put in figure 8 that I thought I would try on this for the LD overhead and just use the dynamic Samson kick mic I have on hand.
BTW, what's the reso head on that kick drum?
+Angelo Boltini It is a really old head that was on there when I got the kit. I wanna say it's a ambassador smooth white 24" by Remo.
I cant find the Weathervane pdf on this technique, any suggestions ?
Very interesting indeed! Will give it a go …
This may not be the most appropriate place to ask this question, but do you have any experience or tips for overhead miking a kit with 2 kick drums? Thank you!
Gosh I can't say that I have ever done a two kick drum kit. Really rare. An engineer I look up to has said that it's been years sense he's seen more than two toms in his studio.
Great videos, I just found your site and going to look at it all! Side question, What's your honest opinion about the Rode NTR. I've got a inexpensive ribbon (apex) and also the X15 cascade. In the video it looks like you have three NTR's! Is it worth the leap? Thanks for any feedback, I mean insights.
+ciavideoproductions (I mean 2 to 4 NTR's)
+ciavideoproductions Yeah I like the NTR. I can't speak for how it compares to the ribbons that you have, but it would be a step up in quality. It's got a lot of gain to the mic, and it's very warm sounding.
creativesoundlab
Thanks for the reply. I just got my NTR and it is a step up in quality and cost. Lots of bottom but I'm also getting full, warm mid range vs. condensers. Thanks for all your videos, they are very informative and concise. Great work.
What's a good substitute for that ribbon mic?
I have an U87 or a C414. Are those good options?
I would go with which ever has the warmest sound. Perhaps the 414.
But in Omni or Figure-8 mode?
What are the dimension of your room ?
Question, can you use a large diaphragm condenser instead of a ribbon? How would that sound?
Great stuff!!
+Victor Carrillo Yes, see Brian's comments below.
Do you think using pads on mics is the same as inline pads in regards to reducing phatom power? Good video. I bought these instructions but had a hard time with them because of the up and down distance of the second pencil mic then realigning the triangle between the three
+Jeb McGovern Yeah I think that a pad that is build into the mic, here I used the pad on the NT55, it is designed to reduce it's output without it having an effect on it's performance. So I would use the pad on a mic first, if I don't have then, then a pad on the preamp, and then if I have neither of those an in line pad like I had mentioned.
+Jeb McGovern - yes, when we've aimed for a wider triangle, I've found I have to repeat many of the later steps back and forth in order to get it to fall into place. Once the dimensions have settled into place though it sounds great and works like it would with a smaller triangle. I'd love to some verification from someone else, so please let me know what you think. You can email me your thoughts any time.
Hey Ryan! I am just watching again this nice video, and i´m wondering how to apply this method to a drumkit with more than 2 toms...
Yeah, I don't think that even Brian knows that. I think they just go for two toms always. But just try it and keep messing with it. If you figure it out, you would be the first in the world and cutting edge.
I would imagine you just add one more tom to your phase measurements. The exact placement would probably look the same, but maybe a bit further apart? it's a good question, and since I haven't tried this OH technique before, I'm just as curious as you. I would suggest you just follow the same steps (with your extra tom), and if you run into problems, just think strategically and use your ears. Secondly, the more important question is: Do you NEED three toms in the recording? I haven't used my third tom in years. It distracts me from keeping things simple, and changes where i can set up my ride cymbal. I don't think I'd set up a drumkit with three toms unless it were absolutely necessary for the song. from one drummer to another, I know more toms is more fun, but it's all about serving the song, baby!
Thanks for the video. So for the overheads, is your right overhead pointing towards the snare? And what about the left overhead? It looks like it's pointing down between the snare, tom and crash.
Yeah, I point everything everything in the general direction of the snare, but don't get too nit picking about it. The over-snare mic is pointed at the front edge of the snare, and back rim of the hi tom. The over-floortom mic is kind of pointed at my right knee. I know that the weathervane crew point the mics inward just slightly, but I'm not sure that you absolutely need to. If anything it might be more technically correct to point them the same angle.
creativesoundlab Thanks. I haven't tried out the technique yet but look forward to it. I was watching the video from George Massenburg on how he mics overheads and was wondering if there would be a way to combine the two. They're already pretty similar but I don't think the Massenburg technique has the snare OH directly over the snare.
What about room mic placement with this? Thanks
Brian and his crew like to use a pair of ribbons that are on the ride cymbal side of the room. The ribbons face each other and are about 3 feet off the ground, and 1 foot apart. They are constantly changing and modifying their techniques though.
I'm confused. You said the ribbon would create the centre image, and the 2 Rode's the side, but then set up a Rode directly over the snare in a classic mono position? So that's not particularly a side? That's an extra centre? I feel like the if the 3 mics were grouped into a stereo channel it would be right side heavy no? Sounds great mind. Aaaaand my brain has overheated.......
A nice quiet room very helpful with cheap microphones... But with this example mics the quality is better. Really nice and well done technique.
+Francisco Viper Díaz Thank you!
Where do you place your room mice with this tech?
The Weathervane crew place a pair of ribbon mics about 5 feet from the kick, at the 2 oclock position from the drummers perspective. The ribbons face each other and are a foot apart. I'm sure they have an updated guide on their website about this, as I know they have made changes to the technique since this video has been published.
I dont have a ribbon mic but I do have a matched pair of Rode M5's and a TLM 103.... Worth a shot? Thanks for the videos
+Chris Ark Yes try it! I'd love to hear it! Part of the sound is having a dark mic in the center that picks up the toms and snare, but I think you should still give it a shot.
Thank you. Very interesting.
+Molten Monster Thanks!
Sounds good! The ribbon points at the snare *and away since it's polar; is room reflection ever a problem? Where's the ribbon panned; center? And the two condensers create the stereo image? Or since it's a triangle they all work together? Tricky one! Thanks
Yes, the ribbon is panned center, and the condensers are panned out to the sides. Brian has told me that sometimes in mixing the middle ribbon is not that strong in the mix, and they can sometimes rely heavily on those side condensers for most of the drum overhead sound.
Is it possible to get a ribbon mic without breaking the banks? I'm still wondering that
yes. I have a Nady RSM4 that sounds good to me.
I've watched this video 2000, of the 32, 745 views. I've enjoyed it every time. Thank you as always. I'm gonna probably use this on a session this weekend with some great mics and pres in a nice big room and a great band. I hope the drummer can tune his kit as well as you always do. Have you used this technique since filming? Have you picked up any new tricks and nuances?
I really haven't. My go-to technique is the Blumlein which is just a simple XY with a pair of ribbons. I use the AEA R88 for that because it's just so easy to nail every time and sounds great. This sounds great too, but I've been using my SDCs on toms so that put this technique out of the running.
Good to know! I actually settled on Blumlein config with some Royer R10s (and Cloud Lifter CL- Z) for OH and KM185s on Toms, N22 on Kick Out, D112 kick in, 57 SnTop, BeyerDynamic M260 SnBtm, and a Flea 47 for mono squash.
I think R88 might be my next mic purchase after a 441
great tutorial I'm a drummer and audio engineer so I am extra curios about that ride. the Zildjan K, What's the size and or additional model name of it =) Looking to get that great crashable ride sound you've got here. thanx. Cheers from sweden/ Lennny
+Lennyrapid Hey thanks man! It's a K Custom Dark Ride 51cm (20 inch).
I think this method beats the recorderman or gyn johns method hands down. It has a great open sound. I've wanted to find a way to capture the drum sound on the early Sabbath records, and this might be the way to do it.
Hey Ryan, that sounded amazing! Would love to hear a version with close mics as well.
Could this technique be used with other microphones than ribbons; like large diaphragm microphones? I'd still wish I had some ribbons to check this technique out myself though =)
Do you normally only pan your drum overheads 40% or do you experiment with the panning ?
+Søren Sørensen For your question about using a different mic than a ribbon on the center - Sure I guess you could try it. Part of the sound of the technique is having the low mids down the middle, and the brighter mics (SDC) out to the sides. 40% is just what Brian McTear told me that he uses, and I was trying to stay true to the practices that his engineers use. I dig it actually.
+Søren Sørensen -- If I were using XY or some other true stereo technique, I'd typically pan hard. But our technique falls apart when panned too wide, just like Recorderman has in my experience. It actually doesn't mean our technique produces narrow imaging. It's quite the opposite. It simply does so without panning the mic signals all the way.
Thanks for the responses! Thinking about it I can clearly see your point. Now I just have to try this for myself! Merry Christmas =)
Nice technique... just one question.. how does it work with a not so good treated room? can I lower the distance of the mics or may I have to choose another different technique? Thanks!
+Luca Ridolfo This technique is pretty good I think. It's better than Blumlein for a bad room. Yes, if you lower the distance of the mics it may help. Also treat the ceiling first as this can have some really bad affects on overheads with the snare drum.
Thanks for your comment! I want to ask you if Recorder man or Glyn Johns technique is drier rather than this method which you have described... I'm lookin for a solution in order to use 3-4 mics and obtaning a nice dry sound
+Luca Ridolfo Yeah, if you had a mic for kick and snare, I might even go with an XY as close as you can get it, and then mic kick and snare.
I've been putting off trying this method for too long. I just purchased the 3 pack, and now I'm committed ! I have a pair of SM81s they should be a nice compliment to a ribbon mic. Do you think that the R88 could work in this situation?
+Malcolm Palm Yeah, you can use the R88, but just one side. I usually use the top ribbon if I'm using that mic in mono, and then point the ribbon directly at what you are recording. The bottom mic will just be hanging out and doing nothing, no big deal.
+creativesoundlab Oh, cool. I didn't know you could do that.
+Malcolm Palm Yeah, the R88 gives you two XLRs for each of the two mics inside the enclosure. You don't have to use both mics if you are using it for vocal, or guitar, but it's just a huge mic to hang and move around for such a task. Still, it can be done and I do it often.
Nice technique, I actually used this on the first drum Demos I ever recorded... although I didn't really know what I was doing and didn't check the distances all that well. Will come back to this video next time I try it. Could you explain what you mean with the pad an the 48V not getting to the mic? I didn't really understand what you meant
+Da Spotz Yeah, for the pad blocking part of the 48v....phantom power goes down the same wires that the signal travels on. So to pad one, you also pad the other. If you use a built in pad on the mic or the pre amp, then you keep the full 48 v going to the mic. This is a pretty new idea to me, and I just decided to stop padding for condensers, so I still have some testing to do and listening to do.
That's interesting! Thanks for elaborating. But just to be clear, you only pad when the signal exceeds what the mics can handle (volume wise), right?
Well actually what the PRE can handle. I think a lot of mics can handle a lot, and most of the time it's the preamp that's overdriving. Rode has amazing headroom in their mics for example, so it's more about the pres. If it were about the mics being overloaded, then I would move the mic away from the source or use a different mic.
Nice technique!!!! Sweet Rode ribbon mic!!!
Just be careful kids, most ribbons mics don't need phantom power and it might actually damage it.
+Davi Aquino Yes agreed. I'm always triple checking my phantom power when ribbons are connected.
Thank you
Thanks for this I have never heard of this I don't get to mic drums up as much as I'd like but will hopefully get a kick soon. I will get the guide and this might be answered in this but are ribbon Mics necessary? Thanks for the great channel.
+Musa Henderson To do this technique in same way, yes, because it gets the beefy lows and mid range of the kit and it acts as the center while the SDC act as the side in a mix. But I would try it with any mics you have on hand and see how it works.
+Musa Henderson Hey Musa -- I work for weathervane and tried this technique once with two SM57s as the L and R OHs and a budget medium diaphragm condenser as the center OH. Definitely didn't sound AS powerful as with nicer mics and a ribbon in the middle BUT it actually resulted in a really accurate, even, representation of the kit and was definitely the best i'd ever captured drums in that kind of situation.
+Gabe Greenberg Hey Gabe thanks for being apart of this and sharing your first hand experience with this. I've always wondered what that combo would sound like. Really interesting to hear it was a great result using 57s.
does it HAVE to be SDCs?
Ryan...I'm so luvin' all your presentations...this one so much that I had to go out and replace my cheapy stereo Blumlein with the R88...Question: I have a medium sized room...about 12' long X 11.5' wide X 9'3" tall...I have home made panels just like yours except I use 8lb rockwool...!...They are not splayed out from the wall...(I'll give that a go)...how do I best determine what frequencies need attenuation...?
Also, I thing the audience would like to know what your signal chain is...?
Thanks...
+Dave Smith Hey thanks Dave! Yeah, just put the panels up and try to get a little space behind them. I try to have a spot in the room where each wall and ceiling is at least treated. The ideal place to catch the bad frequencies is 25% of the way out from the wall, but that is not often practical.
+creativesoundlab Yeah...that would be just under 34" out from the wall...If I don't have to treat both walls...it could work...but the room is only 11.5' wide...!...Thanks for getting back Ryan...!
+Dave Smith Haha, yeah, that's a crazy amount of room that you loose. I would stick with 6 or 8 inches and I think you will hear a difference.
+creativesoundlab Thanks Ryan...!
Would this work with large diaphragm condensers?
I think so. Try it out and see.
Those mic pres sound really cool.
Thanks!
Very cool actually!
What hi-hats are those? They sound super nice.
I think they were 1960s 13 inch Zildjians
Are you still using this technique? It sounds pretty good. I bet you can get away with panning wider if you use large diaphragm condensers and a ribbon.
Well I don't use this technique a lot, because I mostly use my R88 for overheads.
I love your videos. They're making me think in different ways. Most excellent. Do you do patreon? I'd love to support your time! I intend on using this method at my next session but I am short a ribbon.. have you tried this with a condenser set to fig 8? Thoughts?
+Jason Lyle Thanks Jason. Yeah, my Patreon is at www.patreon.com/creativesoundlab
+Jason Lyle For the ribbon in the middle, I would pry keep it as a ribbon. At least use something dark if you can. A 414 in subcardiod or even omni might work just fine. You want it to pick up the body of the snare and capture a lot of fullness.
Well I had a full weekend of Drum sessions. I borrowed a ribbon. Weathervane was really cool! Didnt work for all tracks, but man did it work on the ones it did! Thanks for the full tutorial!
do you have to use a ribben mic or any mic
For the technique to be true to how the Weathervane folks use it, it would be a ribbon. This is part of how dark that mic is, and it helps fill in the "Meat" of the drum kit, while the SDCs fill in the sides.
That is pretty awesome dude. Sounds good. Nice shuffle too. Would love to hear a processed version of all the tracks too
+bikesdrumsnstrings Thanks man, all these grooves are pretty generic type stuff just to give us something to test the mics.
+bikesdrumsnstrings - if you want to hear a bunch of songs taken all the way to final mix with our technique, go to weathervane music's shaking through site. At the very least, the most recent 10 episodes or so use this method. (If you are a member, you can also download the mixstems to hear the tracks exactly as they ended up in our mixes, in isolation.)
+bikesdrumsnstrings Here's the link that Brian mentioned to hear this technique in action: weathervanemusic.org/shakingthrough
thanks guys
I'm a bit confused now, will this technique sound good in mono?
I think it sounds fine in mono. Of coase this is not my technique, but from someone much more seasoned that I am, and they use it for tons of huge clients.
How would measuring ensure balance of the toms? What if they are different volumes, since one is about ten time the size (volume).
And, when measuring the bass and snare, usually its for phase and you pinch the string so it remains the same distance...
So i don't quite understand all this measuring and why its so important when its got nothing to do with phasing!...I mean it sounds good, but just seems a bit arbitrary..............If anything you've ensure that the kick and snare will NEVER be in phase by doing this as you've definitely shited the ratio between them- even if you time-align tracks later...
Unless there's some magic in the triangle I am missing...Like they are meant to be equally out-of-phase to create something like a mid/side array effect.
A side question though; I often prefer the OHs infront of the kit- and use the string pinch method....if I do that though I can't get a string to the kick beater. Where is good to measure from? The top of the head? The top of the middle of the shell?
+jorgepeterbarton OK you kinda answered in the Q&A video. And are just as confused as I. Seems like there could be some maths involved though, like they are equally out of phase in opposite directions becuase of the triangle.
I tried to do this today when I had some spare time. I just couldn't get it to work right. I couldn't get the ribbon to be equidistant from the rack tom and floor tom and couldn't get the side microphones to be perfectly equal to form the triangle. I suppose having the mid tom in the way doesn't help.
When I did some test recordings, I found that flipping the polarity of the side microphones made things sound worse (which is good I guess, as it means I kinda got those right), but when flipping the polarity of the ribbon, it actually made things sound a bit fuller. It took me a good hour to even get it to that stage, but I'll have to try again to get it right.
Yeah it takes a little time to set up. The first time I set it up, it took about 20 minutes with going back and referencing the instructions. It gets faster in the future.
Creative Sound Lab I tried it again today and it worked a charm! I used my Cascade Fathead II with my Shure KSM137s. Added a D112 on kick and also tried a 57 on snare. It was actually pretty interesting flipping the polarity on the 57, as it actually made the snare disappear, it was insane. That never happens.
Awesome. *request time.....* Now do one with 2 ribbons and one condenser! (please)
Silly idea,but what if used on lead vocal? But tighter range. I have three mics,but two XLR cables so i can't really try it. I dread plain mono vocals lol, I'm a big stereo fan due to producing and mixing on head phones. Mono compatibility is important,but a little stereo can't hurt to make it sound a little bigger.
+blood lord (Chaotic Sonics) For vocals, I would recommend other techniques besides this one. I've set up room mics on vocals just so I have a real verb sound available. I would recommend something like this which gives you mono compatability on vocals, yet the stereo-ization you talk about using two mics: th-cam.com/video/DvFHifaeFSM/w-d-xo.html
creativesoundlab
Oh yea I saw that one gave it a like. Thought that was a cool technique. My room is very dry though for that, have stuff everywhere damping the room. I have to figure out how to undamp the room even after cleaning up since it's still kind of damped from the curtains and closets.
+blood lord (Chaotic Sonics) - I've generally found that stereo imaging on a vocal is not a good thing. Any shifting, even a periodic movement of the head toward one side dramatically shifts the position of the voice. Very distracting and tough to mix. (I learned this the few times I tried using mid-side on vocal). It's led me to realize that full utilization of the stereo field actually DEPENDS on some elements occupying the center, and I'm comfortable with the vocal being one of those things. (Reverbs and ambience on vocals can certainly occupy the sides, though.)
Would I be able to replace the ribbon with a condenser? Just as I don't really have the money to drop on a ribbon xD
+mrmegaguitarplayer I think it's worth a shot, but it won't be quite the exact sound. The center is going to give low end fullness to the snare and toms. Without a dark mic in the center those drums won't have the low end support that gives the technique it's signature sound. But seriously, try it anyhow. This measurement process is a cut above anything, so give it a shot with what you have.
+mrmegaguitarplayer -- You could try it, for certain.
Thanks for the reply guys! :D
great idea! thanx. but only 2 questions. 1 - what if I have 2 rack toms and 1 floor tom? I mean distance between mics.
2 - what distance from drum set to room mics?
wanna try today this method
+Vladimir Sergeev Hmm, I might let Brian answer the question about the second rack tom. The second rack tom might be a touch louder than the hi and low tom, but it'll still be in the middle of the toms. That's a great question that I'm curious to know too. For the room mics, the mics in the video are about 6 feet away from the front edge of the drum kit.
+creativesoundlab thanx for your feedback. I appreciate it. I made test record by this method and found that the studio should be acoustical prepared (sorry for my english). I mean damped. otherwise there is too much room in mix
+Vladimir Sergeev - yep. The technique has not been fully fleshed out for other configurations. I intend to as time goes by. Would love it if you would help...
+Vladimir Sergeev -- as far as the distance, it's explained in the document itself, but I start with a distance that the drummer won't hit the mic with drum sticks.