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Years ago, when ANACS was the only grading company and gave photo certificates, they assigned a grade but on the back of the certificate listed the different grading opinions of all the graders who saw a coin. That was more accurate: Grading is merely an educated OPINION, helpful but not the final word.
I DISAGREE GRADING A COIN IS ANYTHING BUT SUBJECTIVE. A COIN IS A PIECE OF METAL ESSENTIALLY, METAL IS MALUABLE TO AN EXTENT, EVERY SINGLE TOUCH/SCRATCH/EFFECT ONCE DONE CAN NOT BE REMOVED. THERE IS SIMPLY A METHOD TO DETERMINE HOW MUCH EFFECT HAS TAKEN PLACE ON THE METAL & SO ON.
@fatlostmedia1376 I disagree, I have seen conservation done on coins where finger marks and where pvc holders have left residue behind on the coin and have all been removed. Though while I wouldn't advise it for copper coins as it can make them turn pink, I disagree how surfaces that have had contamination through some means of human or environmental issue can't be restored.
Anyone can nitpick and use higher standards for lower grades but the whole purpose of grading is to adhere to widely accepted criteria. Using stricter criteria isn’t helping the hobby at all. This extremely helpful video has officially scared me away from ever using CAC.😮
Several of those coins were arguably problem coins. The owner should have been thankful they were straight graded to begin with. Some people can’t leave well enough alone.
CACG is returning to the old higher standards. In the long run our hobby will be better off because of that. Gradeflation has eroded trust in the marketplace so it's best we adopt higher standards.
Thank you Daniel for letting the general public know how tough CAC is. Back when it started JA had a good thing going with the green sticker of acceptance of the grade. They should have just stuck to that because now you just made the video of some high dollar coins reduced to 25% of its value hence the 21 peace. My advise to the public go to your local dealer and ask their opinion on weather to grade the coin or not and find what service is best for the coin for the price.
@@MichaelPierce-e1d CACG honors that grade and puts a "L" to denote a legacy cac sticker. So at least CACG is consistent with their stickering grading.
Great video. Maybe people will start to realize that paying hundreds of dollars more because of a number decided by a random guy on a random day is ridiculous..
They've been doing it for 17 years now and gain more believers with each passing year. I doubt people will start to realize this is "ridiculous". The market doesn't lie.
I agree with you Daniel, AI will and probably would be a better fit for grading our collection. We spend a ton with Pcgs, Ngc, and Cac. Who's to say those graders aren't having a bad day when grading our item's! I would trust "YOUR" grading before trusting Pcgs and the others, for I've been following you for some time now and you are 100% HONEST AND FAIR! Thank you so much for all your hard work and informative important information. God bless...
The problem is, there's too many grades. The old letter grade system would be far better - BU, Choice BU, Gem BU, Superb Gem BU, Perfect Gem BU, and then pluses in between. Everyone can understand that. No one can understand the difference between 66+ and 67. And to be honest too many 67 coins are 66s with toning bumps, something that really irks me. Everyone thinks AI would be "fair" but it won't. Because the TPGs pay the developers that create the AI, so the AI will be tailored to the TPG's wishes. And then it would be very easy for dealers to manipulate the AI, once they have an idea of what the algorithms are. Also, AI would not be able to detect certain fakes like the famous "omega" gold. There's a reason why that form of intelligence is called "artificial" - it will bring artificial results.
The perfect example of "Buy the Coin, NOT the Holder or Grade". The Green or Gold Bean sticker is coveted at a Premium to collectors, yet all 4 companies can't agree on grades most of the time. It's not that CAC doesn't like toned coins, as I have several toned slabbed coins with the CAC green bean sticker. This situation presented is also another reason why I prefer RAW coins for my collections. This problem exists with other graded collectables as well.
True but the issue I have with pennies for example is if they are not slabbed they oxidize very quickly. Its very different with gold or platinum but even silver will indeed oxidize quickly if not slabbed.
So glad you said that. I am a beginner at this and sent what I thought was a very good 1878 s Morgan dollar to NGC for grading and it came back UNC Details cleaned.
Thank you so much for this video. I had a representative from Heritage recommend I send an expensive proof coin to CAC to enhance its value with its sticker before selling. I will not even consider it now
A lot guestional submissions in that lot,as a collector I appreciate the value CAC has brought to the market by weeding out the guestionable coins that the bigger graders are pushing thru ,ther been inconsistencies with pcgs and ngc I prefer tighter standards as a collector.
Exactly. The problem however with CACG is that they HAVE to grade marginal coins as a grading company, regardless of what their stickering service does. They can't apply their stickering guidelines to grading, as a coin that just sneaks in at 67 for example has to get a 67 whether they think it's marginal or not. I feel they missed the boat here. They could have used a white label for marginal coins, a green label for solid coins, and a gold label for exceptional coins, the same way Albanese would assign "tiers" to certain coins before CAC - "A" coins that are exceptional for the grade, "B" coins that are solid for the grade, and "C" coins for marginal coins that are correct for the grade.
@bobford7366 there's a BIG difference between correctly grading a coin, and selecting coins that are in the top percentile of a certain grade - a concept not fully understood by many. Just because CAC doesn't sticker a coin doesn't mean they do not agree with the grade.
@@louieatienza8762 My point being that CAC is returning to the old higher standards of grading. All coins that are details-free WILL sticker. What most people don't understand is that most coins will sticker at a lower grade than what PCGS and NGC typically grade at because of the gradeflation movement.
I can't figure out why someone would try to cross NGC / PCGS coins to CACG? A new company without a track record to review. I'll keep mine as is! THanks for the info.
I laughed at those 70s that got bumped down to 68. I've seen so many of those bulk submission silver eagles getting a rubber stamp MS70 grade, often with minor stains that were ignored. That grade is handed out way too much for modern coins
Not only that, a 'First Strike' designation on coins of small mintage such as modern commemoratives is laughably meaningless. An issue of less than 100,000 pieces (such as several modern gold commems) is knocked out in a few days or even in one. Those 'first...' labels only indicate who got theirs graded before a deadline.
I bought a 1oz Libertad back in 2020 from APMEX graded by PCGS as MS-70. Likely a bulk submission the coin had multiple milk spots it looked horrible considering the cost which even with the silver premiums at the time was well north of $170. I filed a dispute and returned the coin for a refund.
@@alejsc2 I have to agree. Those LWCs were horrendous. Whatever dealer decided to try and cross them wither has no clue or is looking for a cash grab. Every Morgan and Peace dollar that was details scratched had scratches. So many slabs get gassed to artificially tone the coins, and turn a $15 slab into potentially a $200 slab.
This video really helped me, I was stuck wondering who should I send coins too, now I know, all my top notch coins too CAC and my other coins that aren't as critical I'll send too PCGS... Thanks 😊👍😊!!!!!!!!!!!! You saved me money... CAC wants the absolute best samples because they're going to give you a real grade according to that, PCGS and NGC are more for average coins...
Copper scares me for reasons like this. The 1921 peace dollar was robbery in MS-63 is around $1,000. It's probably safe to say the dealer lost over $1,000 in value. I feel bad for the guy
I don't feel bad. That dealer would likely just crack it out and resubmit it with PCGS or NGC. Why feel bad for someone whos playing the crossover game? As to copper, there are no guarantees. The slabs are not air-tight, nor are they purged of oxygen. They may not have been conserved prior to submitting and may have had PVC or other residue on them. Also, unscrupulous folks try to "gas" the slabs to tone the coins, in a way to lend credibility to the toning since it's in a slab. Especially the older rattlers, and those that already have a CAC sticker on them. It's a big scam, where someone takes a mediocre coin and raises its value 300-500% simply by toning it. Basically fraud, but tough now since the TPGs decided that some artificially toned coins are "market acceptable" and folks are in Teletubbie mode when they buy coins.
@@louieatienza8762 Alot to unpack here, the idea behind grading a coin accompanies the preservation of it as well. What happens before the coin is in the possession of someone else or mishandled prior to submission, is a separate issue. I think copper coins must have a good history, findings and the origins play a factor. Tracing a coins history, provenance, ownership. I don't know about you but, if I spend a significant amount of money on a numismatic item, I plan on being there in person. Aside from gold, I've never made big purchases without knowing what I got into. Grading companies are not a scam, as a coin community we want more assurances with rare coins than here say'. A second or third party weighing in on a coins authenticity gives a buyer security in an investment form.
@bryan4915 The standards are high in who PCGS, NGC hires for grading employees. I've looked into it before, seems like a stringent selection with the prerequisites. I would assume alot of the graders are old collectors who fit the requirements, maybe not on the more common judgment calls. I don't know for sure, I trust the judgment most of the time however experienced dealers call into question some coins that make me second guess. That happens alot, a second opinion is always valuable.
I would assume NGC and PCGS are loving this. People say more competition is good for the consumer, but this will just drive up coin prices. More crack outs, more regrades, more money spent on grading the same coin. TPG aren't going to discount their service, dealers aren't going to eat the cost, so it will just drive up the costs of graded coins. I'm no coin expert, I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like to me. There's a small chance it could backfire and drive more people to ungraded, but probably not. I personally prefer ungraded. Collecting slabbed coins is like sex with a condom. Sure, it's safer, but if you want to actually feel it, you have to get hands-on. The only reason I like them is for coins I want to be sure are authentic. I've bought a few NGC graded Roman coins to be sure they weren't fake, and broke them out of their slab when I got them. Especially for ancient, holding the history in your hand is part of the appeal
I believe it definitely will as we are learning to stay away from them. No one wants to get their coins bumped all the way down until they have no value. I'm definitely NOT going to them unless I'm just getting a sticker on ANACS or NGC grading.
The problem with "environmental damage" is that each grading company will have it's own idea of what is unacceptable and what is not. The problem I see with that is 2 collectors who never messed with their coins but had different environments in which they stored their coins could have 2 completely different results after many years of storage. So one coin is worth $200 and one coin is worth $2000 and neither coin has ever been altered. Same with minor scratches that can only be seen at a certain angle. Just lower that coin a grade. A details grade is just too harsh.
Based on what I am seeing, CAC is going to be relegated to stickering coins. And you were certainly right about these being future collector's items. Stunning!
Aside from not caring much for CACG holders, I don't agree with their grading process. I may be a snob but I will stick with PCGS. I prefer PMG (NGC) for graded paper notes. Thanks for the video!
This reminds me of when you think you have a nice raw coin and you bring it to the dealer to get a buy price on it. They will pick it apart since the future customer or grading company will pick it apart. I feel sorry for the dealer who ended up losing thousands of dollars on this CAC submission. Absolutely brutal.
I don’t feel bad for him. He had perfectly acceptable coins, but he was just greedy. And what fool re-submits MS70 Eagles? Did he think they would come back as MS75 ?
Cracking questionable coins out of straight-graded PCGS and NGC holders is a fool’s game. Even more foolish is to crack out MS70 coins. What are they hoping for? MS71? How much money was wasted on downgrading these coins? Is CACG too strict? Possibly. But I’d rather have these coins in PCGS and NGC holders anyway, as the market for coins they’ve graded is well established. Be careful what you wish for with AI grading. The software may end up being just as strict (perhaps more so) than CACG. When your AI-graded coins all come back with details grades, you may suddenly miss the human equation in coin grading.
AI would not be more strict, it would be way more consistent and actually be able to figure out what exactly happened to each coin. I’ve not over looked anything when it comes to AI.
@@CoinHELPu It’s simply too early to tell. A computer will be able to see damage that most people would overlook. The question is how sensitive will it be set for determining a grade. It will only be as good as the human programming behind it.
@@mjanovec it’s not to early. It would be calibrated to ignore anything that can’t be seen with a 5x loupe and the whole intention of AI is deep learning. It will form a grade baseline for all grades.
Thank you, Daniel, for this interesting video and for being so cutting-edge with regard to technology. In the news this week we can read that the University of South Australia has announced that their AI program, trained on known diagnosed and control (diagnosis-free) subjects, can determine which children are autistic by scanning their retinas. Visual AI is no longer science fiction; it is here, now, and the sooner coin-graders move to AI, the better. With regard to CAC, the problem of progressive toning on previously red, previously slabbed copper coins is inherent to the metal itself, and calling it "environmental damage" carries a false and misleading implication as to the cause. With copper, darkening is inevitable and transient colours are just a fun side-effect along the way, like a sunset before night, so toning is always of a matter of "how much," "how pretty," and "for how long." If you care enough about permanent colouration, switch to collecting gold coins instead.
WOW. Note to self. Stay away from CAC. Looks like CAC just doesn't like toning. I typically don't agree with favoring AI processes over the human eye, as I am aware of the coding biases. But in this case, I think automation will bring consistency to these very inconsistent results. Helpful information as usual. Thanks for your time and expertise.
I definitely would be staying away from sending coins to CAC. Since I'm a nobody, I probably couldn't anyway. ANACS is my favorite if I needed stuff graded. Otherwise, I really prefer raw coins. I quite often disagree with details coins. I find it hard to believe that there are more than a handful of coins over 100 year old that haven't been washed dipped or wiped. To me it's all in the overall look of a coin. Obviously a bunch of scratch lines ruins a coin. No luster, stinks. But they use "Details " way to often. Again I'm just some smuc with a few over paid coins.😮
I agree - I have had both NGC and PCGS punt on coins they thought were questionable but wouldn't say so. ANACS will say very clearly (and I have had coins go both ways). it makes a lot of difference because at least you know where you stand.
Incredible information here Daniel, thank you for sharing. It appears CAC does not value toning as a desirable feature on coins. I personally love most toning on coins, especially if it’s rainbow toning spreading from the center of the coin outward. IMO, PCGS and NGC are the two most reputable grading companies thus I will continue to send my coins for grading to either or. It’s just not worth sending to CAC. Thank you. 👏🏼
That's weird because a lot of old coins with dark natural toning get CAC stickered, even if the toning is unattractive. They seem to value coins that have never been messed with, and so when they give opinions on more modern coins with unusual colors they will give them details grades just in case they have been messed with.
Based on your video today Daniel which is quite informative, that I am of the opinion that CAC is just too conservative. I think Daniel that you speak for the vast majority of dealers who think that the opinions of the three best grading companies are usually really decent with some exceptions. ANACS NGC and PCGS offer respectable opinions. I think CAC's best role in their services should be to affirm their seal of approval OR if not to just simply not put their seal on a different holder. This was a horrible outcome for coins that IMO fall under coins that were probably toned due to exposure to paper on rolls, the case of OBW. Those Peace dollars are totally ruined by CACs grading. This brings us back to the idea of buying the coin and not the holder. Thank you Daniel.
Wow the 1934 wheat cent @ 11:14 they graded it as environmental damage... That might be the worst one yet. Its not damaged or even toned. Its just turning a little brown. Thats what all copper cents do, and thats why the have the R/RB/B designations, because its just the color of copper. Thats so stupid its comical. They really wont give it a number grade because its naturally changing colors like every other cent?
Mr. Daniel Thank you as always for sharing. I agree that AI is the next step in grading and potentially advancing the hobby because it will be a true impartial, non-bias and unemotional evaluation. I'm sure there will be some scrutiny at first but all technology will have to work out the bugs before it can be refined.
All in the eye of the beholder! Not a real fan of graded coins as a rule. Have used them as sort of a guide but generally purchase upon my own assessment especially as I only collect for personal pleasure not as a pure investment although it's nice to know there is some value in ones interest. Thanks for the video and my condolences to the person who submitted the coins for the most part anyone would be proud to own them
Good day Daniel, I believe that CAC is trying to be a very conservative grading company. I myself would not use them for any coins that you want to resubmit especially coins that has a 70 grade. Until they establish a list of how they will grade on errors and varieties. They already establish that coins with toning are environmental damages so no use sending them these types of coins to them. Thanks again Daniel for making a 14:23 co
Great video Daniel! The only good thing I think about CACG being so conservative is if you buy a CACG coin “sight unseen” you know it will be strongly graded. I hope 😉. Thank you again 😎🤙🏼
It seems clear that CACG is grading conservatively. I just bought a CACG Walking Liberty in MS65+ and at first glance it looks like a 67. I'm quite sure PCGS and NGC would give it at least a 66. I suppose it will take time to find out how to price these coins fairly. From a buyer's standpoint, these slabs are fantastic. Dealers, who pay to submit these coins, may not be so pleased.
Totally agree with you Daniel about AI bcuz I truly believe at times that us humans get it wrong. We can one minute call it something it is not. I say a simple answer for grading should be a 3 way grading standard. Number 1 is a reputable numismatic grade your coins and then it'll have to be graded by AI and if both are in agreement then one final numismatic grader to approve of both human and AI gradings. I know that's a lot but it would keep true authentics and weed out the human errors.... Just my thoughts
@CoinHelpu You mentioned that you use all the different grading services. If you haven’t done a video about it yet, it would be interesting to know when/why you would choose any given service over another. Really like your videos!😊
Some of those regrades I agree with and some I don't. The lesson is be very careful when you resubmit coins when you are happy with the grade they already have.
From what I've been seeing I wouldn't submit coins to CACG. They are still new at this, and it shows. Also, for copper coins the grade on the holder is the grade at time of being encapsulated -- copper can change over time. Why anyone would want to downgrade a PCGS coin to CACG is beyond me. Yikes!
“They” are not new at grading. The founder of CAC was the founder PCGS AND NGC. CAC has been critiquing PCGS and NGC coins for over 15 years. There may be no other person on the planet that is more capable at evaluating US coins than John Albanese.
@@FranklinHalfAddict Further, JA has been threatening PCGS and NGC for at least a decade now that if they didn't tighen up their grading standards then he would start CACG...fast forward to today and PCGS and NGC continue to contribute to gradeflation and now JA is trying to return our great hobby back to its former higher standards.
CACG is a stickler for detail. I like it. I'm the same way. I have many, many coins that to others look great but to me they don't make the grade. I think CACG spends more actual time with the coin in hand performing grading than PCGS or NGC spend. I know NGC and PCGS handle the coins quickly and do not dwell on any particular coin except for maybe very high value coins. CACG obviously looks closer at these coins and has a far more stringent set of rules for coins they certify.
Call me crazy, but since we have (supposedly) standardized on the ANA 70-point scale that is just a slightly modified version of the original Sheldon Scale, grading companies, rather than intentionally trying to get the coveted "Most hardass grading company award", grades SHOULD be (and should is a very big word) relatively similar, not this completely divergent. We either have an industry standard or we don't. And if we don't, and each grading company is just making it up as they go, making it meaningless. Of course, we could comment about what kind of a dumbass sends a PCGS 70 to be crossed, and they "deserve" what they got due to being so greedy, but that is precisely what CAC is trying to do.
All grading companies should all have the same value and basis for grading coins but like you said as human grading each one might grade it more liberally while the next one might judge it conservatively and it shouldn't matter who grades a coin it should be consistent no matter who grades and where
Remember Back in the day when a grading company didn’t like the look of a coin… They’d send it back “Body Bagged” just in a flip that said “Cleaned” etc. Sound familiar? An old dealer once advised me while assembling a Dansco 7070 not to crack out MS graded coins, because they’d likely not get the same grade again. Words of Wisdom.
If only someone from CAC could comment on some of these graded coins. How coins cross over and what are their grading standards related to toned or scratched coins. I'm wondering if CAC is now classifying all toned coins as Env Damaged as a standard grade.
Some takeaways from this great video; * Don't be Greedy * Don't send any Toned or Scratched Coins to CAC Grading. * Don't cross over to CAC G Period. * Move to AI Grading ASAP! Thanks Daniel.
So far I've sent 3 submissions to CACG. I've encountered a little bit of what you received here as well. It's clear to me that CACG doesn't want to straight grade anything with color not on the Sunnywood scale, anything with carbon spots, rough surfaces, scratches or any suggestion of interrupted luster. That's fine now that I understand what the rules are. I got a batch of straight grades but every coin was one or 2 grades lower than I believed were deserved. I guess this means that straight graded CACG coins are top, top.
Very interesting and educational (for me) video. Thanks. I am assuming the dealer noted broke those coins out of their original holders to submit to CAGC? At the loss he is or will take to sell in the new holders he now has to consider sending back to PCGS/NGC to have a chance at recouping all his grading fees and original cost !! 🤯 Wow...good luck. I don't think conservation is the word I would use for the CAGC results but I'm just a relative rookie when it comes to grading.
This CAC is INSANE, hands down. They completely change the hobby! Kick them to the curb! Everyone relies on the current established standards, so to completely dismantle the established to this degree is like I stated, "INSANE." I guess I should have just said, " I don't care for the radical change?" Yes, that sounds more politically correct. This was a Great one, Daniel. Blessings, Louis
LOL you sound ridiculous. JA started NGC and helped cofound PCGS. Its not a radical change, its a return to the old standards from 1980. I will say some of those ms details scratch coins were a bit harsh, but i agree with many of the quest color grades.
I do see the scratches on the 26 peace dollar…It seems like CAC is only giving straight grades on Lincoln cents if the coin is RED Red/Brown or Brown in color…no other colors of any kind are being allowed.
I think it would be interesting if the Smithsonian sent in a number of the NGC slabs from the national collection in for a CAC review. Given the changes from the other two services how would they fare? If they didn't get a bean could one infer they did not make the grade?
I don't know where people get this, grading companies are trusted now more than ever, and it's not even about trust. It's just business, because coins sell for more in graded holders. CAC didn't do anything but try to put themselves above all the others so they can own the larger market share, it was a business move, not bringing higher standards. If that where the case then they could have just kept stickering instead. So they just went ultra conservative so they could be the top dog.
@@CoinHELPu I'm friends with several CACG shareholders who have been in John Albanese inner circle for forty years. This is the strong sense I get from my conversations.
What I think is sad is, we need a better grading system and standard, aided by technology and not just another grading company. Coin grading needs some major innovation.
@@CoinHELPu I agree with you, however, the best catalyst for change is increased competition. In the long run, the market will shake out the weak, and only the strong will survive. We the consumers will benefit from this.
@@bobford7366 the weak is the current grading method and system, as tech grows they will become dinosaurs. So competition will not benefit anyone in it's current state, it just creates more confusion.
Note to self, don't send them a raw coin unless it's blast white and relatively mark-free. Those dollars labeled scratched were VERY ticky-tack. On the other hand, seeing how stingy they are, buying a coin that's straight graded by them seems like a worthy buy.
The background of a coin with a turkey is highly appropriate If I had a straight grade TPG, I wouldn’t gamble on a possible CAC upgrade - smart people will buy the coin, not the CAC kiss of approval. Was it worth the submission?
For the most part, I think CAC corrected many grading errors of the other two TPGs. Overtoned coins get way too much leeway IMO. I hope your IA grading prediction for the future comes to fruition.
I agree with CACG on the toning issues - most of those coins appeared artificially toned to me and should never have received a straight grade from PCGS/NGC. A few of the scratched coins seemed more minor and I wonder if the CACG graders felt the coins had additional more subtle problems that contributed to the details grade. CACG appears to be very strict and after everyone sees this video they may not be receiving too many more crackout submissions. I definitely have more confidence in buying their straight graded coins after watching this video. I am confused about how to submit to CACG - would love for you to do a video on that regarding crossover submissions, pricing, how to submit, turnaround times, legacy grades for CAC stickered coins - do they keep the plus grade on the coin?, etc.
With this bit of information, I've wanted to get some of my collection graded. Looked into the memberships and fees for submissions and for a freetime hobby I do on occasion, I can't justify spending the money. Among alot of the collectors forums and pages online recommend getting your submissions checked by no less than 3 independent coin dealers and get their opinions first before the considerable investment that may have unsatisfactory results. As a newbie to the hobby, it's fun and exciting to find really nice gems hidden in pocket change and coin rolls but it really discourages the hunt and preservation of the history of the coins in general when your questioning the grading process behind these global currency grading companies.
My recommendation is to send 10 of your best coins to ANACS coin grading service. From those results to you can build on your submission savvy, and if a coin comes back the grade you needed you might jump into the resubmission ring to PCGS or NGC for crossover. It's a slow process but coin grading by humans is 80% consistent at best.
Holy cow, that was absolutely brutal. Thanks for sharing. AI would be tough to pull off to detect luster and cleaning but it's likely inevitable. Cool part is if the scans are saved, it could literally rank coins overall instead of just grade, so you'd know exactly if you have the #1 best coin.
Thanks for sharing because I was going to go to CAC for grading but now I'm not. Also, I had a 1921s Morgan Dollar that was already graded by ICG at MS66 and I took it to PCGS and they bumped it all the way down to DAMAGE and AU. I lost $12k dealing with PCGS and now my coin is only worth about $27. I think I will go with ANACS or NGC. I will definitely stay away from PCGS and CAC unless I'm just getting a sticker from CAC to go along with ANACS or NGC grading.
It's better to send the coins in their original PCGS or NGC holders to CAC for possible stickering as it's cheaper and you won't lose the original graded coin. I think CAC is very strict and some of my coins wouldn't sticker because of being cleaned but were in PCGS and NGC holders problem free. The higher the value of the coin the less likely it will get a CAC sticker or get into CACG holder. That $20K 1799 10$ gold coin in AU53 will most likely be deemed cleaned by CACG.
New to all this but as a rookie Ive seen so much where you could call it human interpretation as far as grading I totally agree it’s time for “AI” for coin grading.
Interesting, on the ASE's it goes to show that PCGS and NGC aren't really grading the coins when it comes to full monster box dealer submissions. They are just deciding on a certain number of 70's to send back and calling the rest 69's without really looking at the coins unless there is a clear flaw to give it a 68.
I feel like I have seen a lot of CAC coins (little green sticker on a PCGS /NGC holder) that are toned, so that surprised me. CAC was explained to me like 1 in 10 coins come back with the sticker on it, and 1 and 1,000 come back with the gold sticker. So, that being said, you would think they would be way more conservative with their grades.
As much a commentary on CACG overly strict grading practices as it is on decision making in trying to cross coins to CACG. Also raises the possibility of seeking out otherwise nice-looking CACG holdered coins, cracking them out and sending them to one of the other TPG for a possible upgrade.
I don't get rejecting a grade because of "scratches" unless it is unusually scratched. Aren't scratches bag marks that usually are taken into account in the grade?
Daniel, w/a recent auction I was involved with (w/Great Collections), I noticed that similar Morgan Dollars to mine for sale - that were holdered in "CAC-Grading", received significantly higher prices from prospective buyers. I also couldn't help but notice, the similarity of the CAC-Grading coins, to that of the CAC-stickered coins but were graded by NGC or PCGS. It also seems like one may do better selling graded Morgans...using the CAC-Grading, rather than NGC or PCGS w/then CAC stickers on them. Your thoughts are appreciated.
Great video. I am not suprised, I've seen many videos like this from the coin geek and a few others. As well as chatting with people on the IG community. I definitely think CAC is the lowest of the 5 companies. Idc what anyone else says. Their incompetence is out of hand.
Well, CAC is a service I will never use. This is ridiculous! Contact marks are not scratches. This is elitism doing its best to devalue the average collector's coins. Not good. How many grading services does the hobby need?
When it comes to grading coins , I think it should be graded accordingly ( proof should be graded as proof ) . Those Peace Dollars were not proof and some of the scratches should actually be called "Bag marks " even if they were Uncirculated they were still put into a bag with other coins for shipping , the grading should take that into consideration and allow for it . Also you are correct in saying Environmental Damage is a Vague term most of the time . Thanks for the vid .
Who implied that any of the Peace Dollars shown were proofs? 'Bag marks' do not include scratches imparted from objects that weren't other coins. I agree with you regarding toning / 'environmental damage'. Back when 'BU' was king, 'toning' was widely regarded as tarnish and was often dipped away. When the GSA dollars were released for sale, some of those who ordered lower priced examples that were not labeled 'Uncirculated' ('tarnish' was a disqualifier) received beautifully toned mint state Morgan, Peace, or in some cases Seated Dollars. Toning is, essentially, 'environmental damage'. Taste is subjective.
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When did cac start grading coins?
CAC is terrible for grading
I have a submission that is ready to go for CAC grading, however, upon watching this, I think I will switch it to PCGS.
Thanks for the video.
Years ago, when ANACS was the only grading company and gave photo certificates, they assigned a grade but on the back of the certificate listed the different grading opinions of all the graders who saw a coin. That was more accurate: Grading is merely an educated OPINION, helpful but not the final word.
I remember when the ANACS photo certificates carried 'split grades', a grade for each side of the coin.
I DISAGREE GRADING A COIN IS ANYTHING BUT SUBJECTIVE.
A COIN IS A PIECE OF METAL ESSENTIALLY, METAL IS MALUABLE TO AN EXTENT, EVERY SINGLE TOUCH/SCRATCH/EFFECT ONCE DONE CAN NOT BE REMOVED. THERE IS SIMPLY A METHOD TO DETERMINE HOW MUCH EFFECT HAS TAKEN PLACE ON THE METAL & SO ON.
Grading IS the final word when it comes to coins at auction.
@fatlostmedia1376 I disagree, I have seen conservation done on coins where finger marks and where pvc holders have left residue behind on the coin and have all been removed. Though while I wouldn't advise it for copper coins as it can make them turn pink, I disagree how surfaces that have had contamination through some means of human or environmental issue can't be restored.
Apparently CAC doesn't know what they are doing. Seems like a lack of experience.
Anyone can nitpick and use higher standards for lower grades but the whole purpose of grading is to adhere to widely accepted criteria. Using stricter criteria isn’t helping the hobby at all. This extremely helpful video has officially scared me away from ever using CAC.😮
Several of those coins were arguably problem coins. The owner should have been thankful they were straight graded to begin with. Some people can’t leave well enough alone.
Me too.
CACG is returning to the old higher standards. In the long run our hobby will be better off because of that. Gradeflation has eroded trust in the marketplace so it's best we adopt higher standards.
Having a standardized grading that no coin can deviate from is probably the smartest thing I've heard about coin grading...ever
Thank you Daniel for letting the general public know how tough CAC is. Back when it started JA had a good thing going with the green sticker of acceptance of the grade. They should have just stuck to that because now you just made the video of some high dollar coins reduced to 25% of its value hence the 21 peace. My advise to the public go to your local dealer and ask their opinion on weather to grade the coin or not and find what service is best for the coin for the price.
Daniel I wonder what the would do with a PCGS with a CAC sticker sent back to them? Thanks for the videos love your channel.
@@MichaelPierce-e1d CACG honors that grade and puts a "L" to denote a legacy cac sticker. So at least CACG is consistent with their stickering grading.
Great video. Maybe people will start to realize that paying hundreds of dollars more because of a number decided by a random guy on a random day is ridiculous..
Buy the coin, not the holder.
They've been doing it for 17 years now and gain more believers with each passing year. I doubt people will start to realize this is "ridiculous". The market doesn't lie.
@@-oiiio-3993 Buy both because holders had value.
I agree with you Daniel, AI will and probably would be a better fit for grading our collection. We spend a ton with Pcgs, Ngc, and Cac. Who's to say those graders aren't having a bad day when grading our item's! I would trust "YOUR" grading before trusting Pcgs and the others, for I've been following you for some time now and you are 100% HONEST AND FAIR! Thank you so much for all your hard work and informative important information. God bless...
The problem is, there's too many grades. The old letter grade system would be far better - BU, Choice BU, Gem BU, Superb Gem BU, Perfect Gem BU, and then pluses in between. Everyone can understand that. No one can understand the difference between 66+ and 67. And to be honest too many 67 coins are 66s with toning bumps, something that really irks me.
Everyone thinks AI would be "fair" but it won't. Because the TPGs pay the developers that create the AI, so the AI will be tailored to the TPG's wishes. And then it would be very easy for dealers to manipulate the AI, once they have an idea of what the algorithms are. Also, AI would not be able to detect certain fakes like the famous "omega" gold. There's a reason why that form of intelligence is called "artificial" - it will bring artificial results.
The perfect example of "Buy the Coin, NOT the Holder or Grade". The Green or Gold Bean sticker is coveted at a Premium to collectors, yet all 4 companies can't agree on grades most of the time. It's not that CAC doesn't like toned coins, as I have several toned slabbed coins with the CAC green bean sticker. This situation presented is also another reason why I prefer RAW coins for my collections. This problem exists with other graded collectables as well.
True but the issue I have with pennies for example is if they are not slabbed they oxidize very quickly. Its very different with gold or platinum but even silver will indeed oxidize quickly if not slabbed.
So glad you said that. I am a beginner at this and sent what I thought was a very good 1878 s Morgan dollar to NGC for grading and it came back UNC Details cleaned.
Thank you so much for this video. I had a representative from Heritage recommend I send an expensive proof coin to CAC to enhance its value with its sticker before selling. I will not even consider it now
I would send it.
Sticker isn't the same as grading, not much downside to a sticker just $20, if you don't get it
I would just go to get the sticker but I wouldn't let them grade it.
A lot guestional submissions in that lot,as a collector I appreciate the value CAC has brought to the market by weeding out the guestionable coins that the bigger graders are pushing thru ,ther been inconsistencies with pcgs and ngc I prefer tighter standards as a collector.
Exactly. The problem however with CACG is that they HAVE to grade marginal coins as a grading company, regardless of what their stickering service does. They can't apply their stickering guidelines to grading, as a coin that just sneaks in at 67 for example has to get a 67 whether they think it's marginal or not. I feel they missed the boat here. They could have used a white label for marginal coins, a green label for solid coins, and a gold label for exceptional coins, the same way Albanese would assign "tiers" to certain coins before CAC - "A" coins that are exceptional for the grade, "B" coins that are solid for the grade, and "C" coins for marginal coins that are correct for the grade.
@@louieatienza8762 Why do that when you can just correctly grade the coin?
@bobford7366 there's a BIG difference between correctly grading a coin, and selecting coins that are in the top percentile of a certain grade - a concept not fully understood by many. Just because CAC doesn't sticker a coin doesn't mean they do not agree with the grade.
@@louieatienza8762 My point being that CAC is returning to the old higher standards of grading. All coins that are details-free WILL sticker. What most people don't understand is that most coins will sticker at a lower grade than what PCGS and NGC typically grade at because of the gradeflation movement.
I can't figure out why someone would try to cross NGC / PCGS coins to CACG? A new company without a track record to review. I'll keep mine as is! THanks for the info.
I laughed at those 70s that got bumped down to 68. I've seen so many of those bulk submission silver eagles getting a rubber stamp MS70 grade, often with minor stains that were ignored. That grade is handed out way too much for modern coins
Not only that, a 'First Strike' designation on coins of small mintage such as modern commemoratives is laughably meaningless.
An issue of less than 100,000 pieces (such as several modern gold commems) is knocked out in a few days or even in one. Those 'first...' labels only indicate who got theirs graded before a deadline.
One of the 68s he showed had a blue spot in plain sight which is instant 68 max. This video sure has an agenda
I bought a 1oz Libertad back in 2020 from APMEX graded by PCGS as MS-70. Likely a bulk submission the coin had multiple milk spots it looked horrible considering the cost which even with the silver premiums at the time was well north of $170. I filed a dispute and returned the coin for a refund.
@@Meow_Ag47
Buy the coin, not the holder.
@@alejsc2 I have to agree. Those LWCs were horrendous. Whatever dealer decided to try and cross them wither has no clue or is looking for a cash grab. Every Morgan and Peace dollar that was details scratched had scratches. So many slabs get gassed to artificially tone the coins, and turn a $15 slab into potentially a $200 slab.
This video really helped me, I was stuck wondering who should I send coins too, now I know, all my top notch coins too CAC and my other coins that aren't as critical I'll send too PCGS... Thanks 😊👍😊!!!!!!!!!!!! You saved me money... CAC wants the absolute best samples because they're going to give you a real grade according to that, PCGS and NGC are more for average coins...
Glad I am a member of ngc. I tried to join cac when they first started and they weren't accepting new coins. Thank goodness. Ty friend appreciate you
Copper scares me for reasons like this. The 1921 peace dollar was robbery in MS-63 is around $1,000. It's probably safe to say the dealer lost over $1,000 in value. I feel bad for the guy
I don't feel bad. That dealer would likely just crack it out and resubmit it with PCGS or NGC. Why feel bad for someone whos playing the crossover game?
As to copper, there are no guarantees. The slabs are not air-tight, nor are they purged of oxygen. They may not have been conserved prior to submitting and may have had PVC or other residue on them. Also, unscrupulous folks try to "gas" the slabs to tone the coins, in a way to lend credibility to the toning since it's in a slab. Especially the older rattlers, and those that already have a CAC sticker on them. It's a big scam, where someone takes a mediocre coin and raises its value 300-500% simply by toning it. Basically fraud, but tough now since the TPGs decided that some artificially toned coins are "market acceptable" and folks are in Teletubbie mode when they buy coins.
@@louieatienza8762 Alot to unpack here, the idea behind grading a coin accompanies the preservation of it as well. What happens before the coin is in the possession of someone else or mishandled prior to submission, is a separate issue. I think copper coins must have a good history, findings and the origins play a factor. Tracing a coins history, provenance, ownership. I don't know about you but, if I spend a significant amount of money on a numismatic item, I plan on being there in person. Aside from gold, I've never made big purchases without knowing what I got into. Grading companies are not a scam, as a coin community we want more assurances with rare coins than here say'. A second or third party weighing in on a coins authenticity gives a buyer security in an investment form.
I am firmly convinced if CAC cannot handle a PCGS label without damaging it they cannot handle the coin without damaging it. 7:08
@bryan4915 The standards are high in who PCGS, NGC hires for grading employees. I've looked into it before, seems like a stringent selection with the prerequisites. I would assume alot of the graders are old collectors who fit the requirements, maybe not on the more common judgment calls. I don't know for sure, I trust the judgment most of the time however experienced dealers call into question some coins that make me second guess. That happens alot, a second opinion is always valuable.
The dealer can just crack out and reholder at PCGS and then trick some noob retail buyer into taking it off his hands.
I would assume NGC and PCGS are loving this. People say more competition is good for the consumer, but this will just drive up coin prices.
More crack outs, more regrades, more money spent on grading the same coin.
TPG aren't going to discount their service, dealers aren't going to eat the cost, so it will just drive up the costs of graded coins.
I'm no coin expert, I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.
There's a small chance it could backfire and drive more people to ungraded, but probably not.
I personally prefer ungraded. Collecting slabbed coins is like sex with a condom. Sure, it's safer, but if you want to actually feel it, you have to get hands-on.
The only reason I like them is for coins I want to be sure are authentic. I've bought a few NGC graded Roman coins to be sure they weren't fake, and broke them out of their slab when I got them. Especially for ancient, holding the history in your hand is part of the appeal
Thank you for this video. The topics you post are great. I always learn something new. Keep the videos coming and Merry Christmas to you and family.
Hi Daniel, I always enjoy watching your videos, they are very informative.
CAC trying to make a statement? It might backfire on them…
It won't. There are far to many people that support them for them to have to worry about what some of us think.
It backfired on them for me!
@@TruthLivesNow Me too, and I don't care if they're worried about it or not.
I believe it definitely will as we are learning to stay away from them. No one wants to get their coins bumped all the way down until they have no value. I'm definitely NOT going to them unless I'm just getting a sticker on ANACS or NGC grading.
I won't be sending the first coins I've ever had graded to CAC after hearing a few bad opinions from other people and then this video to ice the cake.
The problem with "environmental damage" is that each grading company will have it's own idea of what is unacceptable and what is not. The problem I see with that is 2 collectors who never messed with their coins but had different environments in which they stored their coins could have 2 completely different results after many years of storage. So one coin is worth $200 and one coin is worth $2000 and neither coin has ever been altered. Same with minor scratches that can only be seen at a certain angle. Just lower that coin a grade. A details grade is just too harsh.
Based on what I am seeing, CAC is going to be relegated to stickering coins. And you were certainly right about these being future collector's items. Stunning!
Aside from not caring much for CACG holders, I don't agree with their grading process. I may be a snob but I will stick with PCGS.
I prefer PMG (NGC) for graded paper notes.
Thanks for the video!
the market prices are stronger for cacg coins. i guess you're not a true snob then.
Could they have asked cac to not holder and leave the coins in the ngc/pcgs holders if they would not straight grade in a cac holder?
I will stick with the top 3, C A C can take a hike.
LOL whos the top 3? If youre suggesting ANACS is thats very laughable
ok true, ANACS has their problems.@@Anonymous-a-hole
What’s the third?
That defeats the whole purpose of sending in a PCGS or NGC graded coin in order to try and obtain a CAC sticker.
Thank you for sharing. That is good to know. Good luck CAC.
This reminds me of when you think you have a nice raw coin and you bring it to the dealer to get a buy price on it. They will pick it apart since the future customer or grading company will pick it apart. I feel sorry for the dealer who ended up losing thousands of dollars on this CAC submission. Absolutely brutal.
I don’t feel bad for him.
He had perfectly acceptable coins, but he was just greedy.
And what fool re-submits MS70 Eagles?
Did he think they would come back as MS75 ?
lol true. Was there any coin in this video worth submitting if it were raw other then the questionable 1921 peace ?
@@ordinaryman1904 yeah, it was either for educationnal purpose or totally useless to do xd
@@henny01 it was educational alright.
He learned not to do that again !
LOL !
@@ordinaryman1904 a CACG MS70 coin brings more money than a PCGS MS70
thank you for your time, Daniel
Now, I’m thinking twice about sending coins to CAC! 😬
Good. Keep living in your bubble where all coins get a sticker 🤣
Cracking questionable coins out of straight-graded PCGS and NGC holders is a fool’s game. Even more foolish is to crack out MS70 coins. What are they hoping for? MS71? How much money was wasted on downgrading these coins? Is CACG too strict? Possibly. But I’d rather have these coins in PCGS and NGC holders anyway, as the market for coins they’ve graded is well established.
Be careful what you wish for with AI grading. The software may end up being just as strict (perhaps more so) than CACG. When your AI-graded coins all come back with details grades, you may suddenly miss the human equation in coin grading.
AI would not be more strict, it would be way more consistent and actually be able to figure out what exactly happened to each coin. I’ve not over looked anything when it comes to AI.
@@CoinHELPu It’s simply too early to tell. A computer will be able to see damage that most people would overlook. The question is how sensitive will it be set for determining a grade. It will only be as good as the human programming behind it.
Why the fuck people are paying big premiums for brand new silver eagles that nobody can tell from the next grade down is the better question.
@@mjanovec it’s not to early. It would be calibrated to ignore anything that can’t be seen with a 5x loupe and the whole intention of AI is deep learning. It will form a grade baseline for all grades.
@@CoinHELPuI’d like to see it done. Run the tests!
Thank you, Daniel, for this interesting video and for being so cutting-edge with regard to technology. In the news this week we can read that the University of South Australia has announced that their AI program, trained on known diagnosed and control (diagnosis-free) subjects, can determine which children are autistic by scanning their retinas. Visual AI is no longer science fiction; it is here, now, and the sooner coin-graders move to AI, the better. With regard to CAC, the problem of progressive toning on previously red, previously slabbed copper coins is inherent to the metal itself, and calling it "environmental damage" carries a false and misleading implication as to the cause. With copper, darkening is inevitable and transient colours are just a fun side-effect along the way, like a sunset before night, so toning is always of a matter of "how much," "how pretty," and "for how long." If you care enough about permanent colouration, switch to collecting gold coins instead.
WOW. Note to self. Stay away from CAC. Looks like CAC just doesn't like toning. I typically don't agree with favoring AI processes over the human eye, as I am aware of the coding biases. But in this case, I think automation will bring consistency to these very inconsistent results. Helpful information as usual. Thanks for your time and expertise.
Or equally if you see a high graded cac buy it
@@HenryTheOunce especially if its toned...you know its natural.
I’d be sick and I mean sick!!! I’m a fan of toning….Thanks for the eye opening video! As always, you’re the best! Keep teaching.
I definitely would be staying away from sending coins to CAC. Since I'm a nobody, I probably couldn't anyway. ANACS is my favorite if I needed stuff graded. Otherwise, I really prefer raw coins. I quite often disagree with details coins. I find it hard to believe that there are more than a handful of coins over 100 year old that haven't been washed dipped or wiped. To me it's all in the overall look of a coin. Obviously a bunch of scratch lines ruins a coin. No luster, stinks. But they use "Details " way to often. Again I'm just some smuc with a few over paid coins.😮
I agree - I have had both NGC and PCGS punt on coins they thought were questionable but wouldn't say so. ANACS will say very clearly (and I have had coins go both ways). it makes a lot of difference because at least you know where you stand.
That can be scary for people who have serious coin collections. Thanks for sharing, Daniel.
Incredible information here Daniel, thank you for sharing.
It appears CAC does not value toning as a desirable feature on coins. I personally love most toning on coins, especially if it’s rainbow toning spreading from the center of the coin outward.
IMO, PCGS and NGC are the two most reputable grading companies thus I will continue to send my coins for grading to either or. It’s just not worth sending to CAC. Thank you. 👏🏼
That's weird because a lot of old coins with dark natural toning get CAC stickered, even if the toning is unattractive. They seem to value coins that have never been messed with, and so when they give opinions on more modern coins with unusual colors they will give them details grades just in case they have been messed with.
Don't coins sometimes tone in slabs though?
That was my question. I have lots of slabs. I wish your question was answered.
Based on your video today Daniel which is quite informative, that I am of the opinion that CAC is just too conservative. I think Daniel that you speak for the vast majority of dealers who think that the opinions of the three best grading companies are usually really decent with some exceptions. ANACS NGC and PCGS offer respectable opinions. I think CAC's best role in their services should be to affirm their seal of approval OR if not to just simply not put their seal on a different holder. This was a horrible outcome for coins that IMO fall under coins that were probably toned due to exposure to paper on rolls, the case of OBW. Those Peace dollars are totally ruined by CACs grading. This brings us back to the idea of buying the coin and not the holder. Thank you Daniel.
Wow the 1934 wheat cent @ 11:14 they graded it as environmental damage... That might be the worst one yet. Its not damaged or even toned. Its just turning a little brown. Thats what all copper cents do, and thats why the have the R/RB/B designations, because its just the color of copper. Thats so stupid its comical. They really wont give it a number grade because its naturally changing colors like every other cent?
Mr. Daniel Thank you as always for sharing. I agree that AI is the next step in grading and potentially advancing the hobby because it will be a true impartial, non-bias and unemotional evaluation. I'm sure there will be some scrutiny at first but all technology will have to work out the bugs before it can be refined.
Just curious - how is AI going to work with toning?
All in the eye of the beholder! Not a real fan of graded coins as a rule. Have used them as sort of a guide but generally purchase upon my own assessment especially as I only collect for personal pleasure not as a pure investment although it's nice to know there is some value in ones interest. Thanks for the video and my condolences to the person who submitted the coins for the most part anyone would be proud to own them
Good day Daniel, I believe that CAC is trying to be a very conservative grading company. I myself would not use them for any coins that you want to resubmit especially coins that has a 70 grade. Until they establish a list of how they will grade on errors and varieties. They already establish that coins with toning are environmental damages so no use sending them these types of coins to them. Thanks again Daniel for making a 14:23 co
Great video Daniel! The only good thing I think about CACG being so conservative is if you buy a CACG coin “sight unseen” you know it will be strongly graded. I hope 😉. Thank you again 😎🤙🏼
Don’t temp your luck cracking out straight graded, high grade coins.
aka don't take the red pill
It seems clear that CACG is grading conservatively. I just bought a CACG Walking Liberty in MS65+ and at first glance it looks like a 67. I'm quite sure PCGS and NGC would give it at least a 66. I suppose it will take time to find out how to price these coins fairly.
From a buyer's standpoint, these slabs are fantastic. Dealers, who pay to submit these coins, may not be so pleased.
The conservative grading I'm okay with. As a buyer. Knowing I'll likely not get a straight graded problem coin is nice.
Buy the coin, not the holder.
@@-oiiio-3993 most people are incapable of grading thus they buy the holder until they learn to grade
Totally agree with you Daniel about AI bcuz I truly believe at times that us humans get it wrong. We can one minute call it something it is not. I say a simple answer for grading should be a 3 way grading standard. Number 1 is a reputable numismatic grade your coins and then it'll have to be graded by AI and if both are in agreement then one final numismatic grader to approve of both human and AI gradings. I know that's a lot but it would keep true authentics and weed out the human errors.... Just my thoughts
@CoinHelpu You mentioned that you use all the different grading services. If you haven’t done a video about it yet, it would be interesting to know when/why you would choose any given service over another. Really like your videos!😊
Some of those regrades I agree with and some I don't. The lesson is be very careful when you resubmit coins when you are happy with the grade they already have.
From what I've been seeing I wouldn't submit coins to CACG. They are still new at this, and it shows. Also, for copper coins the grade on the holder is the grade at time of being encapsulated -- copper can change over time. Why anyone would want to downgrade a PCGS coin to CACG is beyond me. Yikes!
“They” are not new at grading. The founder of CAC was the founder PCGS AND NGC. CAC has been critiquing PCGS and NGC coins for over 15 years. There may be no other person on the planet that is more capable at evaluating US coins than John Albanese.
@@FranklinHalfAddict Further, JA has been threatening PCGS and NGC for at least a decade now that if they didn't tighen up their grading standards then he would start CACG...fast forward to today and PCGS and NGC continue to contribute to gradeflation and now JA is trying to return our great hobby back to its former higher standards.
@@bobford7366 I’m happy CACG is around. Some of the grades I see coins getting from NGC and PCGS is appalling.
CACG is a stickler for detail. I like it. I'm the same way. I have many, many coins that to others look great but to me they don't make the grade. I think CACG spends more actual time with the coin in hand performing grading than PCGS or NGC spend. I know NGC and PCGS handle the coins quickly and do not dwell on any particular coin except for maybe very high value coins. CACG obviously looks closer at these coins and has a far more stringent set of rules for coins they certify.
Call me crazy, but since we have (supposedly) standardized on the ANA 70-point scale that is just a slightly modified version of the original Sheldon Scale, grading companies, rather than intentionally trying to get the coveted "Most hardass grading company award", grades SHOULD be (and should is a very big word) relatively similar, not this completely divergent. We either have an industry standard or we don't. And if we don't, and each grading company is just making it up as they go, making it meaningless. Of course, we could comment about what kind of a dumbass sends a PCGS 70 to be crossed, and they "deserve" what they got due to being so greedy, but that is precisely what CAC is trying to do.
All grading companies should all have the same value and basis for grading coins but like you said as human grading each one might grade it more liberally while the next one might judge it conservatively and it shouldn't matter who grades a coin it should be consistent no matter who grades and where
CAC definitely will definitely lose business to PCGS. Thanks for the heads up Daniel.
It would be interesting to take some CAC stickered PCGS/NGC slabs remove the CAC stickers and send those in for grading to see if they're downgraded.
Remember Back in the day when a grading company didn’t like the look of a coin… They’d send it back “Body Bagged” just in a flip that said “Cleaned” etc. Sound familiar?
An old dealer once advised me while assembling a Dansco 7070 not to crack out MS graded coins, because they’d likely not get the same grade again. Words of Wisdom.
Thank you Daniel very informative.
I do like that both CAC stickers and the PCGS stickers are retained. Two opinions are better than one!
If only someone from CAC could comment on some of these graded coins. How coins cross over and what are their grading standards related to toned or scratched coins. I'm wondering if CAC is now classifying all toned coins as Env Damaged as a standard grade.
Some takeaways from this great video;
* Don't be Greedy
* Don't send any Toned or Scratched Coins to CAC Grading.
* Don't cross over to CAC G Period.
* Move to AI Grading ASAP!
Thanks Daniel.
So far I've sent 3 submissions to CACG. I've encountered a little bit of what you received here as well. It's clear to me that CACG doesn't want to straight grade anything with color not on the Sunnywood scale, anything with carbon spots, rough surfaces, scratches or any suggestion of interrupted luster. That's fine now that I understand what the rules are. I got a batch of straight grades but every coin was one or 2 grades lower than I believed were deserved. I guess this means that straight graded CACG coins are top, top.
Who ever had those coins should've stayed with PCGS .
wow - has anyone estimated the value reduction total for these submissions?
the market has already adjusted pricing of these coins. for example a CACG AU58 has the same pricing as a PCGS61 for similar coins.
Very interesting and educational (for me) video. Thanks. I am assuming the dealer noted broke those coins out of their original holders to submit to CAGC? At the loss he is or will take to sell in the new holders he now has to consider sending back to PCGS/NGC to have a chance at recouping all his grading fees and original cost !! 🤯 Wow...good luck. I don't think conservation is the word I would use for the CAGC results but I'm just a relative rookie when it comes to grading.
This CAC is INSANE, hands down. They completely change the hobby! Kick them to the curb! Everyone relies on the current established standards, so to completely dismantle the established to this degree is like I stated, "INSANE." I guess I should have just said, " I don't care for the radical change?" Yes, that sounds more politically correct.
This was a Great one, Daniel.
Blessings,
Louis
LOL you sound ridiculous. JA started NGC and helped cofound PCGS. Its not a radical change, its a return to the old standards from 1980. I will say some of those ms details scratch coins were a bit harsh, but i agree with many of the quest color grades.
Thanks Daniel!
Why would anyone send a 70 in for regrade??
Indeed. I don’t get it either
As a test of the CAC.
Many CACG shareholders are dealers so they volunteered to send in slabbs to convert over to CACG. It's a jumpstart.
I do see the scratches on the 26 peace dollar…It seems like CAC is only giving straight grades on Lincoln cents if the coin is RED Red/Brown or Brown in color…no other colors of any kind are being allowed.
I agree with Daniel, on this limited aspect and with strict limitations AI can do it better. No hangover need apply
I think it would be interesting if the Smithsonian sent in a number of the NGC slabs from the national collection in for a CAC review. Given the changes from the other two services how would they fare? If they didn't get a bean could one infer they did not make the grade?
So my sock full of PCI Morgans isn't going to hit the big time with CAC?
I'm thankfull that CACG is returning higher standards to our great hobby! Gradeflation has eroded trust in the marketplace.
I don't know where people get this, grading companies are trusted now more than ever, and it's not even about trust. It's just business, because coins sell for more in graded holders. CAC didn't do anything but try to put themselves above all the others so they can own the larger market share, it was a business move, not bringing higher standards.
If that where the case then they could have just kept stickering instead. So they just went ultra conservative so they could be the top dog.
@@CoinHELPu I'm friends with several CACG shareholders who have been in John Albanese inner circle for forty years. This is the strong sense I get from my conversations.
What I think is sad is, we need a better grading system and standard, aided by technology and not just another grading company. Coin grading needs some major innovation.
@@CoinHELPu I agree with you, however, the best catalyst for change is increased competition. In the long run, the market will shake out the weak, and only the strong will survive. We the consumers will benefit from this.
@@bobford7366 the weak is the current grading method and system, as tech grows they will become dinosaurs. So competition will not benefit anyone in it's current state, it just creates more confusion.
I definitely agree with your comment on a.i. grading! Now is the time.
Note to self, don't send them a raw coin unless it's blast white and relatively mark-free. Those dollars labeled scratched were VERY ticky-tack. On the other hand, seeing how stingy they are, buying a coin that's straight graded by them seems like a worthy buy.
The background of a coin with a turkey is highly appropriate
If I had a straight grade TPG, I wouldn’t gamble on a possible CAC upgrade - smart people will buy the coin, not the CAC kiss of approval.
Was it worth the submission?
Thank you for the information 👍😊.
For the most part, I think CAC corrected many grading errors of the other two TPGs. Overtoned coins get way too much leeway IMO. I hope your IA grading prediction for the future comes to fruition.
Questionable grading!! (And I'm being nice)
So,the first delivery West Point silver eagle doesn’t have a mint mark ? Please excuse my lack of knowledge.
I agree with CACG on the toning issues - most of those coins appeared artificially toned to me and should never have received a straight grade from PCGS/NGC. A few of the scratched coins seemed more minor and I wonder if the CACG graders felt the coins had additional more subtle problems that contributed to the details grade. CACG appears to be very strict and after everyone sees this video they may not be receiving too many more crackout submissions. I definitely have more confidence in buying their straight graded coins after watching this video. I am confused about how to submit to CACG - would love for you to do a video on that regarding crossover submissions, pricing, how to submit, turnaround times, legacy grades for CAC stickered coins - do they keep the plus grade on the coin?, etc.
With this bit of information, I've wanted to get some of my collection graded. Looked into the memberships and fees for submissions and for a freetime hobby I do on occasion, I can't justify spending the money. Among alot of the collectors forums and pages online recommend getting your submissions checked by no less than 3 independent coin dealers and get their opinions first before the considerable investment that may have unsatisfactory results. As a newbie to the hobby, it's fun and exciting to find really nice gems hidden in pocket change and coin rolls but it really discourages the hunt and preservation of the history of the coins in general when your questioning the grading process behind these global currency grading companies.
My recommendation is to send 10 of your best coins to ANACS coin grading service. From those results to you can build on your submission savvy, and if a coin comes back the grade you needed you might jump into the resubmission ring to PCGS or NGC for crossover. It's a slow process but coin grading by humans is 80% consistent at best.
Holy cow, that was absolutely brutal. Thanks for sharing. AI would be tough to pull off to detect luster and cleaning but it's likely inevitable. Cool part is if the scans are saved, it could literally rank coins overall instead of just grade, so you'd know exactly if you have the #1 best coin.
Interesting. No more Sheldon scale, just rank them from top to bottom. Hum…
Thanks for sharing because I was going to go to CAC for grading but now I'm not. Also, I had a 1921s Morgan Dollar that was already graded by ICG at MS66 and I took it to PCGS and they bumped it all the way down to DAMAGE and AU. I lost $12k dealing with PCGS and now my coin is only worth about $27. I think I will go with ANACS or NGC. I will definitely stay away from PCGS and CAC unless I'm just getting a sticker from CAC to go along with ANACS or NGC grading.
You could have opted for minimum grade and not had them reholdered it, but in an ICG holder it was not going to sell for that much.
Very interesting. Many of those coins should not have been sent in at all, to any service.
It's better to send the coins in their original PCGS or NGC holders to CAC for possible stickering as it's cheaper and you won't lose the original graded coin. I think CAC is very strict and some of my coins wouldn't sticker because of being cleaned but were in PCGS and NGC holders problem free. The higher the value of the coin the less likely it will get a CAC sticker or get into CACG holder. That $20K 1799 10$ gold coin in AU53 will most likely be deemed cleaned by CACG.
New to all this but as a rookie Ive seen so much where you could call it human interpretation as far as grading I totally agree it’s time for “AI” for coin grading.
Interesting, on the ASE's it goes to show that PCGS and NGC aren't really grading the coins when it comes to full monster box dealer submissions. They are just deciding on a certain number of 70's to send back and calling the rest 69's without really looking at the coins unless there is a clear flaw to give it a 68.
What is the purpose of sending an MS 70 coin to be regraded? It can't be graded better than perfect can it?
I feel like I have seen a lot of CAC coins (little green sticker on a PCGS /NGC holder) that are toned, so that surprised me. CAC was explained to me like 1 in 10 coins come back with the sticker on it, and 1 and 1,000 come back with the gold sticker. So, that being said, you would think they would be way more conservative with their grades.
As much a commentary on CACG overly strict grading practices as it is on decision making in trying to cross coins to CACG. Also raises the possibility of seeking out otherwise nice-looking CACG holdered coins, cracking them out and sending them to one of the other TPG for a possible upgrade.
CACG coins get more money in the marketplace vs the same PCGS or NGC graded coins.
@@bobford7366 - yes....the caveat is "same grade"
If I send out a coin that’s already graded and must accept what I get back
I don't get rejecting a grade because of "scratches" unless it is unusually scratched. Aren't scratches bag marks that usually are taken into account in the grade?
Some tough returns. Not sure why anyone would chance the 1921 Peace. Should have left well enough alone. Thanks for sharing
Daniel, w/a recent auction I was involved with (w/Great Collections), I noticed that similar Morgan Dollars to mine for sale - that were holdered in "CAC-Grading", received significantly higher prices from prospective buyers. I also couldn't help but notice, the similarity of the CAC-Grading coins, to that of the CAC-stickered coins but were graded by NGC or PCGS. It also seems like one may do better selling graded Morgans...using the CAC-Grading, rather than NGC or PCGS w/then CAC stickers on them. Your thoughts are appreciated.
Great video. I am not suprised, I've seen many videos like this from the coin geek and a few others. As well as chatting with people on the IG community. I definitely think CAC is the lowest of the 5 companies. Idc what anyone else says. Their incompetence is out of hand.
Well, CAC is a service I will never use. This is ridiculous! Contact marks are not scratches. This is elitism doing its best to devalue the average collector's coins. Not good. How many grading services does the hobby need?
Exactly and not even put a grade at all is insane
We need to return to "elitism" in this hobby as we've suffered from gradeflation for far too long. After all, coin collecting is the 'Hobby of Kings'.
Yep. I will not be sending any of my coins to CAC. Thank you for the education
When it comes to grading coins , I think it should be graded accordingly ( proof should be graded as proof ) . Those Peace Dollars were not proof and some of the scratches should actually be called "Bag marks " even if they were Uncirculated they were still put into a bag with other coins for shipping , the grading should take that into consideration and allow for it . Also you are correct in saying Environmental Damage is a Vague term most of the time . Thanks for the vid .
Who implied that any of the Peace Dollars shown were proofs?
'Bag marks' do not include scratches imparted from objects that weren't other coins.
I agree with you regarding toning / 'environmental damage'. Back when 'BU' was king, 'toning' was widely regarded as tarnish and was often dipped away. When the GSA dollars were released for sale, some of those who ordered lower priced examples that were not labeled 'Uncirculated' ('tarnish' was a disqualifier) received beautifully toned mint state Morgan, Peace, or in some cases Seated Dollars.
Toning is, essentially, 'environmental damage'. Taste is subjective.
You're 100% right about AI. But we'll get there eventually, we have to.
The pink Clevland wrappers create that beautiful toning.
I’d love those peace ladies too
The last cents were Enders. Sometimes nice sometimes not. But no question on color here.
CAC got too big for their britches
Totally agree AI should grade coins
Very interesting
I agree with what u said . Technology has to catch up with the coin hobby. Because opinions dont matter.