2:50 in and I love the fact that Paul opens a gate, walks through, and carefully closes the gate when the video clearly shows that there is no fencing attached to the gatepost! :)
I live in Kemble and walk round Thames Head regularly, so going up I go one side of the gate and on the way back go the other side. I must try the gate!
I could certainly always see the logic for Seven Springs being regarded as the source, especially as it has the small advantage of actually being properly wet all the time. Interesting though to hear of the alternative sources round Thames Head and whether the digging of the canal altered historic water flows, nice research! If the source were changed and the Churn became the Thames, we'd then need to find another name for the Thames west of Cricklade!
Traditionally, the logic would actually be applied the other way round - a river gets its name from the longest contributing river. Which would mean London would be on the river Churn, not Thames! But as always, there are loads of exceptions to that rule, which is also why Hamburg is not on the river Moldau, but on the river Elbe for example.
@@bremCZ The Severn is a river (where the Severn and Thames Canal gets its name), but Seven Springs is the number seven (because there are seven of them) and isn't anything to do with the river.
Am I the only Google earth fanatic? I followed the River Thames from London all the way up to Thames Head. I enjoy doing things like this. I love that you did this little video and showed these places on vide (Google only has a few photos). Thank you! All the canals around the UK are also facinating! I had no idea that these were created until a few years ago. So interesting to followow and see what is there.
This series is easily TV worthy. I've said before but your production values are exceptional. The story telling, the editing, presentation talent, even the music. Just brilliant.
I am so pleased that someone has created a video about an internal debate I have had for years. In fact, there is a tributary to The Churn which starts in a nearby college, which would make The Thames even longer than Severn Springs being the source.
That. Was. BRILLIANT! I really enjoyed that video Paul. I love stuff like this. I do know, from The book on the Thames and Severn Canal, that they almost always had to close the summit level in the Summer due to a lack of water at the head spring of the Thames. The fact that the Titanic is more waterproof than the Oolite the canal was built through and the records show that there were constant problems with leakage and sudden loss. I agree with you that the Severn Springs are a better candidate for the source. The Canal was a good idea, pity it was so badly surveyed and constructed on the cheap, dry in summer and frozen in winter, not ideal. Thank you so much for doing this video, really appreciated.
At the risk of seeming disrespectful of the talents and efforts of the team that put this beautiful programme together, I can’t help mentioning the (by now rather obscure) fact that the Goons once dedicated a programme to identifying the source of the Thames, which they traced to a dripping trap somewhere. Sadly, I’ve forgotten where the dripping tap was supposed to have been located. They turned it off of course, with predictable results. Fortunately, the river seems to have recovered since then.
Lol when you said 'dripping tap' I immediately thought 'bread and dripping' and thought the goons had tapped into this source of dripping - it was making no sense but I thought it was probably a Goons thing - then I realised the relevance of 'dripping tap'.
As a kid when going on holiday to south Wales, we used to stop off at the Seven springs for a break. this was before the M4 was built. great to see that the spring has not changed much in the last 50 years. Still looked as I remembered it. lost so many stopping places to and from Wales when they opened the M4, OK it was much much quicker but lost all the sense of adventure. We would go to bed in our clothes (5 years old) as we would set off about 6am and not get there to late afternoon. I must at some point do the drive down the A40, A48 it's now in the bucket list. Thanks for being back the memories.
same here. Harlow to Lampeter used to take ages before the M4 was built. Was a very interesting journey. Used to go Via Tring , witney , basically the old A40
@The Embedded Hobbyist. Just replying to your comment which brought back memories for me of road trips by car from Cardiff to London along the A48/A40- going via Gloucester past the "Flying Machine" hotel and "The Air Balloon" at the top of Crickley Hill (Why do I remember pubs?). The journey used to take 5-6 hours. I do remember seeing the signposts for Seven Springs on those trips.
Your videos are always well-researched Paul, but this one really shows how far you go to check your sources (sorry) (seriously though - some great investigating work here, v interesting!)
I grew up less than a mile from Severn Springs, everyone around us referred to it as the source of the Thames, I recall a painted wooden plaque that stated this until it fell apart some time in the 1960s. I was surprised to discovered later that another place laid claim to this despite being closer to Lechlade
Fascinating, I would love to see a series that traces a river or rivers, from source to sea, by foot, hovercraft, boat, microlight etc. as the terrain and access permit!
the UK has quite a few rivers that have been buried in tunnels and pipes to allow cities to grow over them, and to stop people from using the rivers as sewers. Might make it difficult to trace those the full length unless you know exactly where they're buried
th-cam.com/users/MartinZero Martin Zero channel would be good place to start, he's one the going old sewer pipes drainage systems (mostly the very old stuff)
Just last weekend, I rode my bicycle along the Tsurumi from its designated headwaters down to close to where it flows into Tokyo Bay. (The last bit is surrounded by factories.)
Ever since I was kid (when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, according to my sons) I understood that Seven Springs was the source of the Thames. Names for rivers could have been local in origin, so the people around the Churn may not have known that it was the Thames further downstream. I think that you just have to go for the furthest source of the water which ultimately becomes the Thames. By the way, did the gate at 2:53 have some invisible fencing either side?
You can see the track in the grass showing that most people don't use the gate. But he has to stick to the marked public right of way ,ss best he can,for content going to youtube .. so yeah the invisible fence is the idea that its private land except along the marked track . Looks like some government department or something put a " right of way" gate there, as if they replaced fencing with the gate ..well you know, because they might install a fence..or they might use it as a horse jump ?.
I have done similar research in regard to a waterfall in a cave in the state of Kentucky in America. No one knew where the water from the waterfall went after it fell. Such fun and interesting investigative work! Great video. CHEERS!
An interesting puzzle to solve would be to find out why the source was changed by decree by John Leyland in 1542. The roman apparently used the longer source. i assume it was for political or economic outcomes. it might be interesting to see who owned the surrounding lands in those days. who got taxes for "thames trade etc.
The removal of gravel from the Ashton Keynes area I think also makes the area by the Thames Head drier than it used to be. I remember water always running through the fields by Kemble which rarely happens now.
Good point. I lived in Ashton Keynes '79-'85 and the little stream along Main Street was always flowing, even in dry summers. Anyone know if it still does (haven't been back in >30 yrs)? There were a lot of gravel pits back then too though - learnt to Kayak on one of them. Probably even more now though.
@@stevetaylor7403 He's stating that he is a "Foley": Leo Foley to be precise. So if he built an ornamental building himself it would be a Foley Folly. 🤪😉
I have watched the Thames become drier over the last 60 years. It was pretty dry but was a trickle as it crossed the A 429 and we walked up the dry valley to the original stone at the source.
Very interesting! However, I must point out that exactly 1km downwards from Seven Springs, the river Churn meets another Tributary that is in fact 800m longer then the one from Seven Springs! Meaning the suposed Thames Head is in a small pond beside `Oxford Cottages` (2km West of Seven Springs along the A436) Exact coordinates: 51.84685N 2.07808W. In June I cycled from there to Teddington Obelisk in 4 days :)
Here in the US, I've always wondered why the Mississippi river was said to start in northern Minnesota instead of Montana. If you follow the river to its furthest reach, the Missouri river course would make the Mississippi substantially longer. Lake Itaska is said to be the source of the Mississippi but there are small streams that feed into it. Seems to me that the whole source idea is a social construct.
Thing about the Thames is it's mostly brackish water, and infact more an estuary than an river in its entirety, plus the fact it's tidal. Also like you say with the rivers and streams that feed into it, as for the Thames has plenty of those too.
Nice little video as usual. Always been fascinated by the Thames and Severn Canal. A successful restoration is being carried out on much of it. The little 'folly' near the beginning of the film is a lengthsmans cottage that housed a maintenance worker, bit like a caretaker I think for that section of the canal. I believe one of five unique roundhouses that can be found on this canal. A complete and still inhabited example can be found near Stroud at Chalford.
Fascinating stuff! You may find the Ohio River interesting too: Officially it starts at the confluence of two rivers in Pittsburgh (weird enough in itself) and at the point where it "joins" the Mississippi River, the Ohio has a larger volume. So really, the Ohio should be said to start in northern Pennsylvania, flow into New York State, back into Pennsylvania, be joined by the Mississippi and flow into the Gulf of Mexico. But it's another case of naming conventions predating accurate measurements.
Surely the Missouri trumps the Ohio as being the real Mississippi. And by the Missouri I include its headwaters too, despite the different names. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brower%27s_Spring
Well, also the Mississippi is seen as a kind of continental divide. If you look at old historical sources many refer to east or west of the Mississippi.
As he says in the video, the volume of the rivers don't matter for determining which is the tributary, just the length. And the Missouri is much longer than the Mississippi and Ohio rivers, so it should be the main river and the Mississippi and Ohio should be considered tributaries
Even with the traditional source of the Mississippi being Lake Itasca there is Elk Lake that connects and flows into it, but has not been considered the source because it does not have enough water flow to be considered a river
That was very interesting. I never managed to get to the supposed source of the Thames when I lived in Gloucestershire but I can tell you about the building you saw near Sapperton tunnel and it was one of 5 roundhouses for canal lengths men to live in. Not very convenient but one further on nearer the Thames has been extended and incorporated into a house. Apologies if someone else has said this already. One at Chalford, Coates, Cerney Wick, Marston Mersey and at Leclade.
Very much enjoyed this one. I spent my teens in that neck'o'the woods with the Thames and its source often getting dragged into school geography lesson. I remember being mostly bored by the whole thing at the time, not helped by my dad (teacher at St. Sampson's in Cricklade) going on about it after every school day out :) The only thing about the Thames that I really remember is @ Lechlade where you could muck about, eat food, drink coke (or the odd blagged beer) with mates and girlfriends. Found the video much more interesting than those geography lessons - and I never knew about the Roman stone on the Churn. If only we'd had YT in the 80s.....
As a former resident of Cheltenham, I too consider Seven Springs to be the "true" source of the Thames. Plus the springs tend to be more active than that field near Cirencester :)
Really enjoyed this one, and the amount of research and effort you put into your productions. I remember, in the early 1960's, visiting the 'source of the Thames' stone you showed and it certainly had a trickle of water then. By the way, I loved the way you went through the isolated gate, rather than round it. Very British and very much appreciated.
Based on nothing but knowing history is often founded on rumour and hearsay, I'd bet a pound (Sterling) to a pinch of pooh, you are right Paul. It just has that indefinable ring of the likely truth. Well done, research as always, spot on.
Really nice video and great research. A lot of these things are quite arbitrary: properly, the Seine through Paris ought to be the Yonne as the flow where the two rivers meets is greater from the Yonne - the research that proved it went down like a lead balloon…
If that's the logic then the river through Egypt is called Atbara and the one through New Orleans is called Ohio. The convention instead is when people know _for certain_ that a tributary is longer than the one with the larger volume, the longer one wins and carries the name.
Great to see you back in the shire Paul. Living in Gloucester seven springs was always the start of the Thames.Thank you for posting this a lovely part of Gloucestershire.
The 'folly' at 1:00 is an old lock keepers house. On the T&S they built several like that and there is one by the old A5 at Gailey on the Staffs and Worcs canal.
The Shannon has as its official source a deep hole in a hillside in Co Cavan called the Shannon Pot. This pool or pot is very deep and in Irish mythology it is believed to be the spot where the grand daughter of the sea Sionnan came to be tempted in a Garden of Eden thence the name. However the area is famous for its Karst Geology and cave systems. It is now believed that the catchment goes much wider and crosses into Co Fermanagh only coming to the surface at the Shannon Pot. At 240 miles it's the longest river in these islands.
Thank you for making this video and giving us the facts. 8:55 "What would we gain?" We'd end a misconception. By acknowledging the Churn as the highest reach of the Thames, rather than a tributary, we acknowledge the correct length of the Thames, and also acknowledge that the Thames is, as you say, Britain's longest river.
Not really though. Historically speaking usually the main branch of a river is the one where the water flow is the largest, or alternatively, the river that goes the straightest at the confluence of 2 rivers. While I don't know if the Thames or Churn is the largest at the confluence of those rivers, the Thames certainly is the one going the straightest, and the Churn is the one joining it. If the main branch of a river would be the one where the source is the most distant, it would create a lot of weird instances of fairly large rivers needing to change their name at a point where a tiny but fairly long creek joins it. The idea that that a river should be names up to it's furthest source is a weird modern thing. And one fairly specific to the anglophone world. It's probably just a misunderstanding of the definition. The source of the Thames is indeed the furthest point up the river thames with water, that is at thames head. The source of the Churn is the furthest point up the river Churn, at seven springs.
Paul and Rebecca - you have certainly turned the tide in favour of the Churn. I was, however, disappointed that I did not see the fair Rebecca. Also - around three minutes in you went through a gate - where there was no wall or fence on either side. Nit-picking apart, a lovely and picturesque piece of research.
Fascinating and educational video. In future videos, please dwell on your positioning maps a little longer to make it easier for those of us outside the UK to get oriented as to where you are exactly. Beautiful scenery. Thank you.
not sure about the UK, but there are some rivers elsewhere in the world that change direction during rain and thaw, which means the start of the river isn't always the same
It really depends, around here most of the rivers originate in mountain basins where there wouldn't be any opportunity to move year to year. The source would essentially be the lowest part of the basin, usually a marshy bit of land where the water would collect would be the source. But, I'm sure that if you've got a flatter landscape with few actual hills and mountains to collect the water, that it could be a bit trickier, especially if there's a spring involved where the rocks can and do shift around over time.
@@isilder If you want to go that route, it's basically always clouds and occasionally springs, but there's rarely enough water coming from springs to make for an actual waterway of any significance.
A great video Paul. One of the things I plan to do before I depart this earth is to walk the Thames from its source so will visit Thames Head but will start at the source of the River Churn now
What a journey of discovery to know the river thames is in fact englands longest river and the humble but beautiful origins of it's source. I can see a lot of research and foot slogging has gone into this research and for that l am thankful.Also the surrounding locations were stunning.
Paul is 1000 percent correct and we should lay a marker with you name on it "Whitewick's official source of the Thames" I always enjoy your videos! Thank you.
Brilliantly shot and edited video. I came here because I wondered why the Thames' source is this and not that... Well, which is what and how it is named is more often based on "traditions" rather than on measurable facts. Rivers are a good example for that, maybe the most vivid. The farthest source of the Mississippi first feeds the Missouri...
I have often wondered the same thing for decades. Since 1978 in fact when I and a friend walked to the source of the Thames near Cirencester and afterwards examined an OS map to find otherwise. I think the river Coln has a shot at it as well - it's roughly the same length from the Coln-Thames confluence to the sources of the Coln and the Churn but the Coln is very tightly meandering so quite difficult to measure.
Last time I went to Thames Head the Neptune statue was still there. The ‘folly’ is one of several Roundhouses along the Thames & Severn. [A complete one is at Chalford]. Back in the early 1960s my parents approached the Bathurst Estate about this one at Coates in the hope of renting it as their home. An unfavourable response, sadly, since when the Estate has allowed the building to become derelict.
Fascinating - having spent quite a lot of time around the area you visited in this video it was certainly interesting to see it in another way, rather than just place names that you drive through
As you said, Seven Springs as the source of the river Churn never dries up. Whereas the current official source of the Thames (map ref ST 980 995) at 365ft ASL, does. Also there is a thought that a spring in the grounds of the National Star College at Ullenwood (map ref SO 941 165) at 716ft ASL, could in theory make the Thames even longer still. Thanks for your interesting and thought provoking video's.
My old neck of the woods, I grew up believing that Severn Springs was the start of the Thames. I was also aware that rivers were made up of a number of contributories, so I always took it with a pinch of salt. I would also say, if anyone is going to go to Severn Springs, the pub there isn't the best, the Green Dragon at Cockleford, which is only a couple of miles away is far superior.
In my teenage years in the 1960s I lived in a village near Kemble in Gloucestershire. The road from Cirencester to my home village crossed the course of the Thames at Ewen. It was almost always dry.
There is another spring, also considered the source of the Thames, which is located 1.3km South of the Origin, this spring seems to be constantly 'wet' providing much of the water that feeds into the Thames near Kemble.
I was going to say just that - the spring is about 2 foot deep and bubbling out the ground at what3words ///looked.tilts.conducted. Very warm as well. All signed off the road on the right hand side as you come into Kemble from the east with parking for a couple of cars. Feeds a nice shallow chalk stream back to the road and *massive* abandoned railway embankment.
Fascinating. Where I am from in NE Pennsylvania we have many creeks and brooks that provide sources to our larger rivers: the Schuylkill and the Susquehanna which lead to respectively Philadelphia and the Chesapeake. Walking on one of our local mountains, Locust Mountain which rises sone 800 feet above the Little Schuylkill, I came down in a vale flowing with water through the stones nature had loosely piled there. Where the force of the water gathered strong enough the forest litter had been washed away and the stream formed a little freshet but halfways permanent. These gathered together to form a small brook draining the entire vale which had been gathered in a rock sided pond where a cabin had once stood which in turned drained into Locust Creek, which emptied into the Little Schuylkill which flows into the Schuylkill to Philadelphia and the Atlantic. I walked there back in the seventies. Your journey reminded me of that day.
Good, Interesting video again Paul. When I used to tour the Cotswolds, I was told that the upper reaches of the Thames was called the River Windrush. That was at Bourton on the water and Upper and Lower Slaughter.
A dry day at Thames head! I have been there in early Spring 2008, and there was indeed a pool of bubbling water here, and the water flowed down a field and through the dry culvert you showed...
I grew up in Kemble just around the corner and spent years playing in the woods and in the river. We used to map the movements of the source across the year, as we knew when it was spring rains in early March and flowing from the "Source Stone", we could get out the thick wetsuits and swim down to South Cerney really quickly with the fast-flowing flooded river.
Interesting stuff, and I’m going to delve even further in history and throw a curve ball at you. The naming of rivers beyond a junction of tributaries is somewhat random. I believe the source of the Thames, as far as prehistoric Britons were concerned, was the River Kennet. It’s path is predominantly east-west in line with the mouth of the Thames. Rivers were of great significance to the Neolithic people and were linked to many of their ceremonial monuments including the Avebury complex, site of Silbury hill and the source of the Kennet.
And yet the valley to the North of Silbury Hill feeds the Kennett. There's a few more miles of headwater there from everything South of the bank near Wroughton.
Approximately 50 years ago a South Today journalists did a multi part walk from the start of the Themes to the sea. I was so taken by it that 40 years later I went to find the source of the Themes. The way that I remembered it from that program was what you showed with a wall and water flowing between the stones. What we found was a dry solid wall with a plaque on it saying that it was the source that you did not show. We hunted around a bit more and a farmer (or farm worker) directed us to a spring in a wood. Others had been there as there were pennies thrown in the spring. It was nothing like you had shown but a couple of clips did seem to be in the area. He did say that he was to understand that it was water from the mountains in Wales that traveled under the Severn estuary.
This reminds me of a series of shows on PBS TV long before the internet was thought of, where the source of the Nile was shown in something like 26+ 1 hour shows broadcast on a weekly period.
I am now 78, but back in 1952 when I was 8, my parents and I were moving to a new house, and that involved visiting my Dad's parents in Gloucester. On the journey back to Surrey, Mum always looked, on the OS map to see if there was anything interesting that might be worth visiting. One thing she found was Seven Springs, where no mention was made of the River Churn, in all guide books it was labelled as the Thames at the time. I actually remember them choosing a different place, and was indignant.
Great video Paul - inspired by yourself, as well as Tim and Geoff, I have been toying with having a go at a video (and was considering a topic of the Thames sources), but you have used much of my "source" material here. I'll have to find something else now! Have never heard the theory about a spring in Sapperton tunnel though - very interesting.
Just do it. Add a bit more to the story, do a different take on it and make it your own. At least you already know that folk are interested in the subject matter. Just try to answer some of the questions that people are asking after watching this video, like the canal roundhouse, or what does the "leak" look like. How close is the Severn? Is there a hill in between where you can see both? And what's up with the invisible fence? I'd watch it!👍
![SAFEPLANET - ดาวเคราะห์ [ THE PLANET ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4X1XL3I_k3c/mqdefault.jpg)
2:50 in and I love the fact that Paul opens a gate, walks through, and carefully closes the gate when the video clearly shows that there is no fencing attached to the gatepost! :)
Haha yes, so I reckon Paul isn’t one of those guys who crosses the solid yellow line to pass, or who runs red lights. By the book at all times!
I also noticed that the ruts made by vehicles go through the big gate and not around it. Rules is rules! 🙂
@@chasbodaniels1744 It is a double white line in the UK, and remember left is right and right is wrong as well. :-)
@@Senshikaji That explains the 'Stealth Rebecca' in this video.
I live in Kemble and walk round Thames Head regularly, so going up I go one side of the gate and on the way back go the other side. I must try the gate!
I could certainly always see the logic for Seven Springs being regarded as the source, especially as it has the small advantage of actually being properly wet all the time. Interesting though to hear of the alternative sources round Thames Head and whether the digging of the canal altered historic water flows, nice research! If the source were changed and the Churn became the Thames, we'd then need to find another name for the Thames west of Cricklade!
Traditionally, the logic would actually be applied the other way round - a river gets its name from the longest contributing river. Which would mean London would be on the river Churn, not Thames! But as always, there are loads of exceptions to that rule, which is also why Hamburg is not on the river Moldau, but on the river Elbe for example.
Judging by the state of it through London I would suggest it is renamed The Ganges...
@@BibtheBoulder Or "The Ankh" (Thankyou Terry Pratchett)
Severn
@@bremCZ The Severn is a river (where the Severn and Thames Canal gets its name), but Seven Springs is the number seven (because there are seven of them) and isn't anything to do with the river.
Am I the only Google earth fanatic? I followed the River Thames from London all the way up to Thames Head. I enjoy doing things like this. I love that you did this little video and showed these places on vide (Google only has a few photos). Thank you! All the canals around the UK are also facinating! I had no idea that these were created until a few years ago. So interesting to followow and see what is there.
Nope. Not the only one for sure. Here's another one. I salute you, geo-brother. 🖖
"cartophile" is the word you are looking for.
@@pavelow235 Yeah! That would be a good term for it.
I do this too! I'm a total river geek...
I did this too... Heres to my Geo Brother hi-five😊
This series is easily TV worthy. I've said before but your production values are exceptional. The story telling, the editing, presentation talent, even the music. Just brilliant.
I am so pleased that someone has created a video about an internal debate I have had for years. In fact, there is a tributary to The Churn which starts in a nearby college, which would make The Thames even longer than Severn Springs being the source.
That. Was. BRILLIANT! I really enjoyed that video Paul. I love stuff like this. I do know, from The book on the Thames and Severn Canal, that they almost always had to close the summit level in the Summer due to a lack of water at the head spring of the Thames. The fact that the Titanic is more waterproof than the Oolite the canal was built through and the records show that there were constant problems with leakage and sudden loss. I agree with you that the Severn Springs are a better candidate for the source. The Canal was a good idea, pity it was so badly surveyed and constructed on the cheap, dry in summer and frozen in winter, not ideal. Thank you so much for doing this video, really appreciated.
At the risk of seeming disrespectful of the talents and efforts of the team that put this beautiful programme together, I can’t help mentioning the (by now rather obscure) fact that the Goons once dedicated a programme to identifying the source of the Thames, which they traced to a dripping trap somewhere. Sadly, I’ve forgotten where the dripping tap was supposed to have been located. They turned it off of course, with predictable results. Fortunately, the river seems to have recovered since then.
Lol when you said 'dripping tap' I immediately thought 'bread and dripping' and thought the goons had tapped into this source of dripping - it was making no sense but I thought it was probably a Goons thing - then I realised the relevance of 'dripping tap'.
it was Michael e tine in It's A Square World the source being a dripping tap in a Gloucestershire field.
As a kid when going on holiday to south Wales, we used to stop off at the Seven springs for a break. this was before the M4 was built. great to see that the spring has not changed much in the last 50 years. Still looked as I remembered it. lost so many stopping places to and from Wales when they opened the M4, OK it was much much quicker but lost all the sense of adventure. We would go to bed in our clothes (5 years old) as we would set off about 6am and not get there to late afternoon.
I must at some point do the drive down the A40, A48 it's now in the bucket list.
Thanks for being back the memories.
Those are lovely roads to drive down now,very scenic. Hope you get to do them on your bucket list.
how sweet to read your recollection from your experience back in the day!
@@hueckelaromat coming down the hill to cross the bridge on bridge street in to Chepstow. still looks good on google.
same here. Harlow to Lampeter used to take ages before the M4 was built. Was a very interesting journey. Used to go Via Tring , witney , basically the old A40
@The Embedded Hobbyist. Just replying to your comment which brought back memories for me of road trips by car from Cardiff to London along the A48/A40- going via Gloucester past the "Flying Machine" hotel and "The Air Balloon" at the top of Crickley Hill (Why do I remember pubs?). The journey used to take 5-6 hours. I do remember seeing the signposts for Seven Springs on those trips.
Your videos are always well-researched Paul, but this one really shows how far you go to check your sources
(sorry)
(seriously though - some great investigating work here, v interesting!)
😅😅..... I think this one did flow well.
Now that's what I call a dry sense of humour.
@@pwhitewick We all knew you'd rise to the challenge. And you not only did that, you also challenged the rise.
I grew up less than a mile from Severn Springs, everyone around us referred to it as the source of the Thames, I recall a painted wooden plaque that stated this until it fell apart some time in the 1960s.
I was surprised to discovered later that another place laid claim to this despite being closer to Lechlade
As we all did in those far off days!
@@christopherseton-smith7404 If you are the Chris Seton Smith who grew up in Cheltenham, I hope you are well, Regards Reg
Had to return for family reasons. All the best, Chris.
I've lived in the area for 30+ years and shortly after moving here, I was told the Severn Springs was source of the Thames.
@2:57 ... glad to see you acted responsibly and shut the gate behind you. Wouldn't want to let the livestock out the field. :-)
Rebecca trained him well. 😁
That gate obviously serves a very important purpose 😁
Fascinating, I would love to see a series that traces a river or rivers, from source to sea, by foot, hovercraft, boat, microlight etc. as the terrain and access permit!
the UK has quite a few rivers that have been buried in tunnels and pipes to allow cities to grow over them, and to stop people from using the rivers as sewers. Might make it difficult to trace those the full length unless you know exactly where they're buried
Wellies around here at the top of the Trent. :)
th-cam.com/users/MartinZero Martin Zero channel would be good place to start, he's one the going old sewer pipes drainage systems (mostly the very old stuff)
Just last weekend, I rode my bicycle along the Tsurumi from its designated headwaters down to close to where it flows into Tokyo Bay. (The last bit is surrounded by factories.)
Good idea, though I feel like sea to source is more interesting. Might just be me.
Just loving the shot you going through the gate with no fence beside it! What the humourist you are!
Just make a sign stating: 'Source of the River Thames' and wallop it in place with a fourteen pounder. Job done 🙌👍
Paul, Rebecca, An excellent video. I did not know that about the Thames. Have a great week. Take care.
Paul's inability to walk around a closed gate with no fence always makes me chuckle. It doesn't happen in every video, but when it does its gold.
It's just got to be done surely, especially when being filmed.
Ever since I was kid (when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, according to my sons) I understood that Seven Springs was the source of the Thames. Names for rivers could have been local in origin, so the people around the Churn may not have known that it was the Thames further downstream. I think that you just have to go for the furthest source of the water which ultimately becomes the Thames.
By the way, did the gate at 2:53 have some invisible fencing either side?
Yeah I saw that as well, why use the gate !
You can see the track in the grass showing that most people don't use the gate. But he has to stick to the marked public right of way ,ss best he can,for content going to youtube .. so yeah the invisible fence is the idea that its private land except along the marked track . Looks like some government department or something put a " right of way" gate there, as if they replaced fencing with the gate ..well you know, because they might install a fence..or they might use it as a horse jump ?.
@@peterlang3369 land mines, they make a very good fence, (or defence)
Just his little joke, he may have done it before. Makes me smile anyway.
I have done similar research in regard to a waterfall in a cave in the state of Kentucky in America. No one knew where the water from the waterfall went after it fell. Such fun and interesting investigative work! Great video. CHEERS!
An interesting puzzle to solve would be to find out why the source was changed by decree by John Leyland in 1542. The roman apparently used the longer source. i assume it was for political or economic outcomes. it might be interesting to see who owned the surrounding lands in those days. who got taxes for "thames trade etc.
I love how Paul opened and went through the gate when there was no fence beside it
Great upload. Interesting to watch. Excellent narration. Tnx4sharing.
The removal of gravel from the Ashton Keynes area I think also makes the area by the Thames Head drier than it used to be.
I remember water always running through the fields by Kemble which rarely happens now.
Good point. I lived in Ashton Keynes '79-'85 and the little stream along Main Street was always flowing, even in dry summers. Anyone know if it still does (haven't been back in >30 yrs)? There were a lot of gravel pits back then too though - learnt to Kayak on one of them. Probably even more now though.
@@flyball1788 Still flows well in Ashton Keynes. Come the end of the summer it is dry in Ewen, next village up to Thames Head
The tower isn''t a foley - it is one of quite a few round houses on this canal. They were lengthsmen's houses
this is a foley.
Suggest you look at the definition of “folly”.
@@stevetaylor7403 He's stating that he is a "Foley": Leo Foley to be precise. So if he built an ornamental building himself it would be a Foley Folly. 🤪😉
I have watched the Thames become drier over the last 60 years. It was pretty dry but was a trickle as it crossed the A 429 and we walked up the dry valley to the original stone at the source.
Very interesting! However, I must point out that exactly 1km downwards from Seven Springs, the river Churn meets another Tributary that is in fact 800m longer then the one from Seven Springs! Meaning the suposed Thames Head is in a small pond beside `Oxford Cottages` (2km West of Seven Springs along the A436) Exact coordinates: 51.84685N 2.07808W. In June I cycled from there to Teddington Obelisk in 4 days :)
I tried to tell you... :)
Here in the US, I've always wondered why the Mississippi river was said to start in northern Minnesota instead of Montana. If you follow the river to its furthest reach, the Missouri river course would make the Mississippi substantially longer. Lake Itaska is said to be the source of the Mississippi but there are small streams that feed into it. Seems to me that the whole source idea is a social construct.
Thing about the Thames is it's mostly brackish water, and infact more an estuary than an river in its entirety, plus the fact it's tidal. Also like you say with the rivers and streams that feed into it, as for the Thames has plenty of those too.
Nice little video as usual. Always been fascinated by the Thames and Severn Canal. A successful restoration is being carried out on much of it. The little 'folly' near the beginning of the film is a lengthsmans cottage that housed a maintenance worker, bit like a caretaker I think for that section of the canal. I believe one of five unique roundhouses that can be found on this canal. A complete and still inhabited example can be found near Stroud at Chalford.
I drive past Seven Springs a few times a week, never knew the history of the name, very interesting, I'll stop there next time.
Please don't forget the flowers and wildflowers! Such a nice day... I so much enjoy your videos!
Thank you for the tour today. Looking forward to the new launch. Cheers Paul!😊
Fascinating stuff! You may find the Ohio River interesting too: Officially it starts at the confluence of two rivers in Pittsburgh (weird enough in itself) and at the point where it "joins" the Mississippi River, the Ohio has a larger volume. So really, the Ohio should be said to start in northern Pennsylvania, flow into New York State, back into Pennsylvania, be joined by the Mississippi and flow into the Gulf of Mexico. But it's another case of naming conventions predating accurate measurements.
Surely the Missouri trumps the Ohio as being the real Mississippi. And by the Missouri I include its headwaters too, despite the different names. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brower%27s_Spring
Well, also the Mississippi is seen as a kind of continental divide. If you look at old historical sources many refer to east or west of the Mississippi.
Maybe we should call it the MissOhio south of Cairo. ;-)
As he says in the video, the volume of the rivers don't matter for determining which is the tributary, just the length. And the Missouri is much longer than the Mississippi and Ohio rivers, so it should be the main river and the Mississippi and Ohio should be considered tributaries
Even with the traditional source of the Mississippi being Lake Itasca there is Elk Lake that connects and flows into it, but has not been considered the source because it does not have enough water flow to be considered a river
That was very interesting. I never managed to get to the supposed source of the Thames when I lived in Gloucestershire but I can tell you about the building you saw near Sapperton tunnel and it was one of 5 roundhouses for canal lengths men to live in. Not very convenient but one further on nearer the Thames has been extended and incorporated into a house. Apologies if someone else has said this already. One at Chalford, Coates, Cerney Wick, Marston Mersey and at Leclade.
@Arnold Cooper look
millions being spent to renovate it all - sadly not for goods...sand gravel etc
2:57 that sky, jeez. 😔
Very much enjoyed this one. I spent my teens in that neck'o'the woods with the Thames and its source often getting dragged into school geography lesson. I remember being mostly bored by the whole thing at the time, not helped by my dad (teacher at St. Sampson's in Cricklade) going on about it after every school day out :) The only thing about the Thames that I really remember is @ Lechlade where you could muck about, eat food, drink coke (or the odd blagged beer) with mates and girlfriends. Found the video much more interesting than those geography lessons - and I never knew about the Roman stone on the Churn. If only we'd had YT in the 80s.....
As a former resident of Cheltenham, I too consider Seven Springs to be the "true" source of the Thames. Plus the springs tend to be more active than that field near Cirencester :)
Really enjoyed this one, and the amount of research and effort you put into your productions. I remember, in the early 1960's, visiting the 'source of the Thames' stone you showed and it certainly had a trickle of water then. By the way, I loved the way you went through the isolated gate, rather than round it. Very British and very much appreciated.
As an ex narrowboater
I enjoy this very much
THANK YOU
Based on nothing but knowing history is often founded on rumour and hearsay, I'd bet a pound (Sterling) to a pinch of pooh, you are right Paul. It just has that indefinable ring of the likely truth. Well done, research as always, spot on.
Really nice video and great research. A lot of these things are quite arbitrary: properly, the Seine through Paris ought to be the Yonne as the flow where the two rivers meets is greater from the Yonne - the research that proved it went down like a lead balloon…
Lead balloons go down very well, so the meaning of that phrase is just as arbitrary...
If that's the logic then the river through Egypt is called Atbara and the one through New Orleans is called Ohio.
The convention instead is when people know _for certain_ that a tributary is longer than the one with the larger volume, the longer one wins and carries the name.
Great to see you back in the shire Paul. Living in Gloucester seven springs was always the start of the Thames.Thank you for posting this a lovely part of Gloucestershire.
The 'folly' at 1:00 is an old lock keepers house. On the T&S they built several like that and there is one by the old A5 at Gailey on the Staffs and Worcs canal.
Not Lock Keepers cottage (no lock there) ,but a Lengthmans cottage - the only one to have an inverted roof to collect water.
@@chrisdavis4285 agreed, I think there are some lock keepers cottages of the same design, but a lengthman would have been ‘similar’ to a lockkeeper.
The Shannon has as its official source a deep hole in a hillside in Co Cavan called the Shannon Pot. This pool or pot is very deep and in Irish mythology it is believed to be the spot where the grand daughter of the sea Sionnan came to be tempted in a Garden of Eden thence the name. However the area is famous for its Karst Geology and cave systems. It is now believed that the catchment goes much wider and crosses into Co Fermanagh only coming to the surface at the Shannon Pot. At 240 miles it's the longest river in these islands.
Really loved that thanks. What a beautiful area. Loving the history also. Thanks for taking me along. Please stay safe and take care
I lived in Cotswolds for about 4 years. Amazing place. Thanks for the video and the memories
Thank you for making this video and giving us the facts.
8:55 "What would we gain?" We'd end a misconception. By acknowledging the Churn as the highest reach of the Thames, rather than a tributary, we acknowledge the correct length of the Thames, and also acknowledge that the Thames is, as you say, Britain's longest river.
Very true Rosie. Very true
It would also give me an extra point on my last pub quiz!
Or does it make the Thames a minor tributary of the longest river: the Churn?
Not really though. Historically speaking usually the main branch of a river is the one where the water flow is the largest, or alternatively, the river that goes the straightest at the confluence of 2 rivers. While I don't know if the Thames or Churn is the largest at the confluence of those rivers, the Thames certainly is the one going the straightest, and the Churn is the one joining it.
If the main branch of a river would be the one where the source is the most distant, it would create a lot of weird instances of fairly large rivers needing to change their name at a point where a tiny but fairly long creek joins it.
The idea that that a river should be names up to it's furthest source is a weird modern thing. And one fairly specific to the anglophone world. It's probably just a misunderstanding of the definition. The source of the Thames is indeed the furthest point up the river thames with water, that is at thames head. The source of the Churn is the furthest point up the river Churn, at seven springs.
Very interesting video Paul. I've yet to go to the source or not the source of the Thames myself.
Paul and Rebecca - you have certainly turned the tide in favour of the Churn. I was, however, disappointed that I did not see the fair Rebecca. Also - around three minutes in you went through a gate - where there was no wall or fence on either side. Nit-picking apart, a lovely and picturesque piece of research.
Fascinating and educational video. In future videos, please dwell on your positioning maps a little longer to make it easier for those of us outside the UK to get oriented as to where you are exactly. Beautiful scenery. Thank you.
I guess like you have said that a river's source can change over the years and also season to season and even depending on weather conditions.
not sure about the UK, but there are some rivers elsewhere in the world that change direction during rain and thaw, which means the start of the river isn't always the same
Yeah, sometimes its the clouds and sometimes its the bedrock
It really depends, around here most of the rivers originate in mountain basins where there wouldn't be any opportunity to move year to year. The source would essentially be the lowest part of the basin, usually a marshy bit of land where the water would collect would be the source.
But, I'm sure that if you've got a flatter landscape with few actual hills and mountains to collect the water, that it could be a bit trickier, especially if there's a spring involved where the rocks can and do shift around over time.
@@isilder If you want to go that route, it's basically always clouds and occasionally springs, but there's rarely enough water coming from springs to make for an actual waterway of any significance.
A great video Paul.
One of the things I plan to do before I depart this earth is to walk the Thames from its source so will visit Thames Head but will start at the source of the River Churn now
What a journey of discovery to know the river thames is in fact englands longest river and the humble but beautiful origins of it's source. I can see a lot of research and foot slogging has gone into this research and for that l am thankful.Also the surrounding locations were stunning.
Thanks Colin
Paul is 1000 percent correct and we should lay a marker with you name on it "Whitewick's official source of the Thames" I always enjoy your videos! Thank you.
Brilliantly shot and edited video. I came here because I wondered why the Thames' source is this and not that... Well, which is what and how it is named is more often based on "traditions" rather than on measurable facts. Rivers are a good example for that, maybe the most vivid. The farthest source of the Mississippi first feeds the Missouri...
And again: very intersting! Really glad I discovered your channel.
Lovely morning catching up on your videos. Thank you for so much excellent content!
A lovely walk and an interesting collection of facts. Very enjoyable, thank you.
Good luck from Spain!!
I have often wondered the same thing for decades. Since 1978 in fact when I and a friend walked to the source of the Thames near Cirencester and afterwards examined an OS map to find otherwise. I think the river Coln has a shot at it as well - it's roughly the same length from the Coln-Thames confluence to the sources of the Coln and the Churn but the Coln is very tightly meandering so quite difficult to measure.
Last time I went to Thames Head the Neptune statue was still there.
The ‘folly’ is one of several Roundhouses along the Thames & Severn. [A complete one is at Chalford]. Back in the early 1960s my parents approached the Bathurst Estate about this one at Coates in the hope of renting it as their home. An unfavourable response, sadly, since when the Estate has allowed the building to become derelict.
Perfect. Thank you so much for all your hard work. We really enjoy our Sunday afternoon!!
Fascinating - having spent quite a lot of time around the area you visited in this video it was certainly interesting to see it in another way, rather than just place names that you drive through
I had no idea how the hell you were gonna get through that fence, thank god you found the gate
You really are rocking this.
" Would you believe, missed it by that much" A fascinating video, keep up the good work.
Very informative, well researched item 👍. You got closer to the source of the Thames than the Wrecker site. 😃
Thanks Paul. I always thought Seven Springs was the source but I guess not. Very interesting video 👍
As you said, Seven Springs as the source of the river Churn never dries up. Whereas the current official source of the Thames (map ref ST 980 995) at 365ft ASL, does. Also there is a thought that a spring in the grounds of the National Star College at Ullenwood (map ref SO 941 165) at 716ft ASL, could in theory make the Thames even longer still. Thanks for your interesting and thought provoking video's.
love the choice of music. really suits the video
Fabulous video again 👍
Kemble, near the source of the Thames, also supplied water to Swindon railway works.
My old neck of the woods, I grew up believing that Severn Springs was the start of the Thames. I was also aware that rivers were made up of a number of contributories, so I always took it with a pinch of salt. I would also say, if anyone is going to go to Severn Springs, the pub there isn't the best, the Green Dragon at Cockleford, which is only a couple of miles away is far superior.
.....but the latrines in the bad pub are the true source of old man thames; green dragon is an imposter
@@pjo2386 I haven't ever thought of it that way, but I like your thinking. Green Dragon is a good Cotswold pub and the food and beer is far superior.
Although the road to the Green Dragon is a nightmare to negotiate on a bike.
Interesting video. Enjoyed it. Loved the weather. Thank you.
Very interesting Paul ... Don't run yourself down either @5:43 All information is very interesting and well received. "God is in the detail"
In my teenage years in the 1960s I lived in a village near Kemble in Gloucestershire. The road from Cirencester to my home village crossed the course of the Thames at Ewen. It was almost always dry.
There is another spring, also considered the source of the Thames, which is located 1.3km South of the Origin, this spring seems to be constantly 'wet' providing much of the water that feeds into the Thames near Kemble.
I was going to say just that - the spring is about 2 foot deep and bubbling out the ground at what3words ///looked.tilts.conducted. Very warm as well. All signed off the road on the right hand side as you come into Kemble from the east with parking for a couple of cars. Feeds a nice shallow chalk stream back to the road and *massive* abandoned railway embankment.
Fascinating. Where I am from in NE Pennsylvania we have many creeks and brooks that provide sources to our larger rivers: the Schuylkill and the Susquehanna which lead to respectively Philadelphia and the Chesapeake. Walking on one of our local mountains, Locust Mountain which rises sone 800 feet above the Little Schuylkill, I came down in a vale flowing with water through the stones nature had loosely piled there. Where the force of the water gathered strong enough the forest litter had been washed away and the stream formed a little freshet but halfways permanent. These gathered together to form a small brook draining the entire vale which had been gathered in a rock sided pond where a cabin had once stood which in turned drained into Locust Creek, which emptied into the Little Schuylkill which flows into the Schuylkill to Philadelphia and the Atlantic. I walked there back in the seventies. Your journey reminded me of that day.
Bit like the Top Gear lot looking for the source of the Nile. Excellent and thought provoking, thank you
Good, Interesting video again Paul. When I used to tour the Cotswolds, I was told that the upper reaches of the Thames was called the River Windrush. That was at Bourton on the water and Upper and Lower Slaughter.
A dry day at Thames head! I have been there in early Spring 2008, and there was indeed a pool of bubbling water here, and the water flowed down a field and through the dry culvert you showed...
I grew up in Kemble just around the corner and spent years playing in the woods and in the river. We used to map the movements of the source across the year, as we knew when it was spring rains in early March and flowing from the "Source Stone", we could get out the thick wetsuits and swim down to South Cerney really quickly with the fast-flowing flooded river.
Interesting... I remember visiting Seven Springs as a schoolkid and being told that it was the source of the Thames.
Interesting stuff, and I’m going to delve even further in history and throw a curve ball at you. The naming of rivers beyond a junction of tributaries is somewhat random. I believe the source of the Thames, as far as prehistoric Britons were concerned, was the River Kennet. It’s path is predominantly east-west in line with the mouth of the Thames. Rivers were of great significance to the Neolithic people and were linked to many of their ceremonial monuments including the Avebury complex, site of Silbury hill and the source of the Kennet.
And yet the valley to the North of Silbury Hill feeds the Kennett. There's a few more miles of headwater there from everything South of the bank near Wroughton.
A really wonderful, interesting video. Thanks for sharing your research.
Great video as always. Could the Severn be extended by looking to see if it has a longer tributary?
Yet another brilliant video, Paul! Thanks!
Really interesting research, plus the bonuses of a fascinating gate and some superb contrails!
Approximately 50 years ago a South Today journalists did a multi part walk from the start of the Themes to the sea. I was so taken by it that 40 years later I went to find the source of the Themes.
The way that I remembered it from that program was what you showed with a wall and water flowing between the stones. What we found was a dry solid wall with a plaque on it saying that it was the source that you did not show.
We hunted around a bit more and a farmer (or farm worker) directed us to a spring in a wood.
Others had been there as there were pennies thrown in the spring. It was nothing like you had shown but a couple of clips did seem to be in the area. He did say that he was to understand that it was water from the mountains in Wales that traveled under the Severn estuary.
I love your guys videos. Very calming. Thank you
cool interesting video again paul and rebecca, well done and thank you again guys 😊
I look at a lot of politics and conspiracies, which does stress you out. It’s nice to watch something like you videos to chill you out. 👍👍
Great story, info and filming. Cheers from Bali.
Very interesting. What a research. Thank you so much. Beautiful countryside as well. Most enjoyable
Brilliant...! Contentious and logical...
Putting in the leg work, so we don't have to.
Very informative video, and a lovely day out.
Cheers!
It's all very confusing, it's much easier to find the other end of the River Thames.
Brilliant video and fascinating research, really enjoyed that thanks!
This reminds me of a series of shows on PBS TV long before the internet was thought of, where the source of the Nile was shown in something like 26+ 1 hour shows broadcast on a weekly period.
Fascinating as always! Thank you.
I am now 78, but back in 1952 when I was 8, my parents and I were moving to a new house, and that involved visiting my Dad's parents in Gloucester. On the journey back to Surrey, Mum always looked, on the OS map to see if there was anything interesting that might be worth visiting. One thing she found was Seven Springs, where no mention was made of the River Churn, in all guide books it was labelled as the Thames at the time. I actually remember them choosing a different place, and was indignant.
Great video Paul - inspired by yourself, as well as Tim and Geoff, I have been toying with having a go at a video (and was considering a topic of the Thames sources), but you have used much of my "source" material here. I'll have to find something else now! Have never heard the theory about a spring in Sapperton tunnel though - very interesting.
Go for it Keith! Always more than one way to tell a story
Just do it. Add a bit more to the story, do a different take on it and make it your own. At least you already know that folk are interested in the subject matter. Just try to answer some of the questions that people are asking after watching this video, like the canal roundhouse, or what does the "leak" look like. How close is the Severn? Is there a hill in between where you can see both? And what's up with the invisible fence? I'd watch it!👍
Good to see you using the gate even when it had no fencing attached either side.
2:15 Damn it's crazy that sign says Woolwich, that's where I live lol. Always wonder about things like this though.