The NEW Source of The River Thames
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.พ. 2023
- A quick few notes, unfortunately I broke my main camera last week so this is a few improvised bits. The camera has now been replaced. In the mean time. 1. Audio indoors is a tad sketchy, better next week. 2. Visual indoors also improved on next week. 3. If you like the drone footage in this video. Its all Hedley's: www.hedleythorne.com/
So this is a experimental style for this weeks video. Aside the dodgy audio indoors... what did you think?
Yep, this is our second attempt at getting this right. Where exactly is the source of the Thames!?
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Folks. Forgive the suspects audio on the indoor bits. Bit of improvising as my traditional camera broke. Back to normal next week.
barely noticed it and wouldn’t have heard a difference until reading the notice, you’re all set in my eyes
All is forgiven
Do a taste test and whichever is the best one, that's the genuine Thames source ?! 😄 Stupid boy!!🙄
That's fine, looking forward to the refund! 😂
Hi, Rebecca, Paul and Rebecca 😂 nice video as per usual always a good feeling watching you all with a mug of Yorkshire tea and Hobknobs, love the joshing about and detective work, didn't notice defective sounds so no worries.
National Star College was previously called the Star Centre and for many years has been a further education college for physically disabled kids. Back in the 70s my school, which was a few miles away, went there for a sports day and I remember they had a big display about the source of the Thames being in the grounds. I'm pretty sure there was some sort of stone there marking it.
Ah, so it has been acknowledged by the college! I do hope they see our video.
I noticed a headstone in that drone shot - but the commentary didn't mention it
@@whophd Ooh was this the one of the National Star college source?
I visited the source of the River Coln near Charlton Abbots today and the headwaters were in full flow. I took a number of photos, but unfortunately lack the technical expertise to upload them! Other than about 300m of pipe from Charlton Pool (the actual source) to the 'spring' there are no culverts other than under roads or railway embankments.
I calculate that the Coln's headwaters are 3 miles further from the Thames estuary than the headwaters of the Churn.
Great video, love the humour in this as well. waiting for the future video of 'The source is wrong again!' 😂
I, too, am waiting for a further video on this theme. There may be commercial interest in an official source of the Thames with a conservation area (and café perhaps)to ensure it doesn't get changed again in the future.
I was under the impression that to reach the source of a river you travel upstream and wherever there is a confluence you follow the course with the greatest flow. When there is no more water to follow you are at the source, which may or may not correspond to the longest distance. I guess there is more than one reasonable definition.
Good point- this time we were using the Oxford English Dictionary version but by that measure we would need to analyse the confluences at Cricklade and Cobberley to see which has the greater flow. I have however heard that The Churn has a greater flow than the Thames where they meet, though that is hearsay.
@@hedleythorne the one with highest elevation should get some prize too i think!
@@hedleythorne how far off are some of the souces of the cherwell? Must be close to challenging Thames Head?
@@itsnome7750 they must be yes, it seems that the more we look, the less significant Thames Head becomes.
The definition in the video isn't how I thought of it either. I thought it was the point with no more water in the main channel, so tributaries are not included.
Thank You Rebecca , for taking me along with you today on the Search for the Source ! I think the College should put up a plaque too commemorating the Great Search , which was done in bitter freezing cold and wind . Cheers from California 😊
Gorgeous looking part of the country
Loved being in this. Loved it.
Thanks for coming along Rebecca 😃😃😃
@@davidberlanny3308 You're welcome, Becky x
Hello, fellow Thames source obsessive @chapmanbookman here inevitably! Lovely film. Of course, if you *do* allow culverting, National Star might still win because the source actually appears to be in the pond there, further north. Still, it's clearly a close thing, and interesting to see Cally Hill!
That's a very good point
Your enthusiasm for your field of interest is contagious.
At 8:00, that water basin is exactly like ones you might find near me in Northern Virginia, USA. We are in Loudoun county, which was historically known for its excellent spring water. The local farms, logically, took advantage of the springs by putting these near or on a spring so that they would never need to be manually filled and the water was always fresh. A few of the farms near me still use them, others have been removed, still others are used as little ornamental ponds with fish and frogs.
Incidentally, we have a well, and the water here is still quite excellent. It's pure and clean enough that we've been able to make some very good home brewed beer from it!
There are many sources of the Thames, those you have shown and the furthest one is only one. They all start with rain. Great discussion, videos, humour and effort by all as ever.
Great video & interesting debate .. thank you Paul , Rebecca & Rebecca??
Just made me think of Only Fools & Horses .. “Peckham Springs” episode 🤣🤣🤣
Sir Tony Robinson did a video on the source to the mouth and it was enjoyable to watch, but yours was equally enjoyable. The point is people will argue forever where these sources are. I would say where the longest route from mount to source even if underground for a while. People for years have been arguing about the Nile and even our great Murray river in Australia. Different creeks and drains throw all sorts of twists into where people consider these sources to be. Love your work, keep it up🇦🇺
John Leland might have been wrong but you can't deny that 'Imagine' was a great song, not to mention his work in The Bea....oh wait, sorry I seem to have confused something here.
Well, I’m glad that, wherever the source may be, you have enough sense (unlike the "official sources") to realize that the true source of a river has to actually have water running out of it!
That was great, thank you Paul and Rebeccas.
To be the source or not to be the source, this video was quite a masterpiece of programme making. Bravo
It was so fun to make!!
Just keeps getting better!
Really well made, to include the humour in a great way. Fab fab fab.
Lovely video. And the Thames is not the only river where the source is unknown. Amsterdam is named after the river Amstel. And I have no clue where that originates, where it is a river or where it is a canal, or even the direction of flow in some of the connected parts.
Thames head is the source of the waterway called the Thames. However the source of the Thames as a whole system is the furthest point from the end.
Great video, as always. As someone who has walked the whole Thames Path from Thames Head to the Barrier, I am feeling slightly miffed that I would have to walk from another source, down the Churn to the Thames. Much more planning, cost, and shoe leather required to say "I've walked The Thames"!
Thoroughly enjoyed this, your delivery is excellent and the passion and enthusiasm makes it enjoyable to watch and unlearn and relearn journey of all what has been hidden and covered up, brilliant videos 👍
fun and
AN interesting argument / points you make in this video about the sauce of the Thames!!! 🤔🚂🚂🚂
Excellent! Was wondering when you might go and see the Ullenwood source. Have to admit the Cally Hill "source" is new to me. Interestingly, that top spring at Cally Hill might be affected by the imminent upgrade of the A417 so it's great you got to see it now. Thoroughly enjoyable. Well done all three of you - Paul, Rebecca and Rebecca! :D
"experimental style for this weeks video" - yes, definitely liked it, when all the indoor cameras give the same colour rendering will be better of course!
Next week!!!
I've always favoured seven springs over Thames head. But I'm now illuminated. Love this channel.
Thanks for todays video. Always look forward to them. See you all on the next. Cheers mates! ❤❤😊😊
Glad you enjoyed it
Hedley trying to be Rebecca was brilliant lol. Great video as always. :)
I AM Rebecca haha!
(at the weekend)
@@hedleythorne That would make things a bit complicated at night, doncha think?
Thanks for a great video. Seeing you in that neck of the woods / hills I was half expecting you to run into Ron from Parkinsons Walks.
Great stuff! Made me chuckle. Keep it up.
Thanks for that entertaining approach to correct the historic records!
Paul and Rebecca are a great mechanism for getting this information out there! Regarding the actual source, it is an itch of mine which I have needed to scratch for a while.
Wow! Good job!
Hedley/Rebecca's drone footage is gorgeous! Fascinating fun to figure out where the headwaters of a river are. It is amazing to see how a small source over miles and tributaries grows into the huge rivers we love. I've seen the headwaters of the Mississippi River. What else can I say? Having crossed that wide river many times, I am in awe of how small it started.
Thank you
I'm sure even Hedley was considerably smaller back a ways. 😜😁
Excellent as always 🙂 Thank you all three this time.
Lovin' the use of the OS maps in this ep! These certainly give a feel of the lie of the land.
Excellent video.
However, I believe the River Coln, rather than the Churn, is the Thames' longest headwater. The Coln (30 miles long) joins the Thames near Lechlade (23.3 miles from Thames Head). This makes the Coln 6.7 miles longer than the 'official' Thames and 3 miles longer than the Churn (Seven Springs source). Other Thames tributaries, may be longer than the Churn or the Coln but this is negated by them joining the Thames further from Thames Head. For example, the River Windrush is 40 miles long, but it joins the Thames at Newbridge, which is 40 miles from Thames Head.
I need to look at the Coln.
@@hedleythorne Thank you Hedley 😊 As a long-standing resident of the Cotswolds, this issue has vexed me for years!
The map in the video erroneously shows the Coln as the Churn and also indicates the source of the Coln as being at Andoversford (when, in fact, it is several miles further north at Charlton Pool, near Brockhampton).
Having walked the Thames Path, I can, moreover, confirm that the Thames doubles in flow when it is joined by the Coln just west of Lechlade. I therefore conclude that the Coln is a valid candidate for being the true source of the Thames!
great video again Paul Rebecca and Hedley , cool drone shots , well done and thank you guys 😊
Thanks- I loved being involved in this one
@@hedleythorne Wait -- aren't you also Rebecca? 🙂
@@aengusmacnaughton1375 I am. Becky x
@@hedleythorne Whew! You had me worried there for a minute! Looks you three had a fun (and cold!) time -- enjoyed being along for the fun!
@@aengusmacnaughton1375 I have been a fan of the Whitewicks for a while, and it feel strange actually being in one of their videos!
Your videos are so good. They always lift up any day of the week! Thank you 👏🏼
I really enjoyed this video, many thanks for sharing it. I would love it if they could dig up the culvert just to extend the length of the Thames!
Great idea! Cally Hill would be a lovely place for it to start, the countryside there is stunning.
Glad to see a bit of cold weather didn’t prevent your making an excellent video.
Really love these videos. I'm outside the UK in the last few years and this makes me feel at home again.
You two are absolutely brilliant. Keep up the good work.
Thank you again for your research in these interesting videos.
Superb video!!!! Thank You!!!
Much chuckle and excellent further info 😊 thanks you two/three.
These get better. Really enjoyed this one, thank you.
I don't care, it's Rebecca's River from now on!!
You have to wonder whether it was William "strata" Smith who drained that field unwittingly shortening the length of the Thames.
Great video, really enjoyed this one. Great baptism for the new office👏👏
Good luck from Spain!!
Very good video!
I love seeing people finding river sources! There's just something special about finding the very place that a river starts - especially when it's a spring bubbling out of the ground or a hillside!
I totally agree- this was such an enjoyable exercise
Excellent. And two Rebecca's are better than one (well almost ! ) 🤣
I'm ecstatic that I've found your channel. I absolutely love all of your videos. The sense of adventure and the building excitement of potentially finding something extraordinary is just plain Awesome!! Living close to the Erie Canal I've spent plenty of afternoons in and around looking for anything older than me. If you need a behind the scenes guy to mind the refreshment cooler, than I'm your guy. Keep up the good work 👍
Aesthetic? 🤪
@@jamesbutler6253 sorry...ecstatic.
@@douglasobrien8023 Thought so, but I was liking the feel of aesthetic. 🙂
If culverts don't count (and granted we don't know if this is).... does that mean there are two River Lavants, one either side of Chichester?
If that's the case, there's 3 River Merseys in Stockport. The main shopping area is built over the river, so there's the section before the buried section, the section after the buried section, and the council has fairly recently opened up a short section along the shopping area where there's a lovely old bridge which was hidden away
@@siabell Stockport is becoming seriously nice these days.
@@Wonderkid44 it's certainly heading that way. I'm sure the local council will find some way to mess it up though, they're great at doing that
Well you nailed another one. Great fun, informative and well filmed. Cheers
Great video, enjoyed the new intro style
That is till the water disappears from these. Because this is rising in limestone, even if it is oolitic, at any time water at some future date could go underground and form an underground flow coming out later. Even 60 years ago water was higher up the valley closer to Thames head. The same could happen to these. Interesting video. Thanks.
Excellent video, very informative and entertaining, despite my disappointment on having driven past the “source of the Thames” en route to Kemble, always wanted to stop and have a look but never got the chance , so you have saved me a wasted trip! I await any further updates with interest😊
I went to Thames Head with Mrs Thorne, it was dry. And she turned to me and said "We drove for nearly two hours to stand in a field". I feel that I failed to woo her there.
I was talking to a friend at work about your Thames videos as we were stood next to the Itchen river talking about where the source of this could be and amazing how such a little feed can cause a huge river :)
Surely most of the water is from the sea at the Thames Estuary, near where I live.
On-Trent is close to me. The little brooks where I am become something epic when combined.
@@ChrisArnold1975 When the tide comes in the water will only go so far up the river. And then obviously it will go out again. In and out twice a day 🙄
Makes me want to re-read Travels with Boogie by Mark Wallington
In Australia the requirement of constantly flowing water is largely useless as many water courses are intermittent or seasonal.
It is certainly possible that at the time he wrote it down those centuries ago, it was indeed the source of the Thames. Ground conditions, agriculture, and a lot of other things could have changed it over the years.
The new Rebecca has a lot going for her. Get her back again. Nice vid.
Hahaha!
Just when you think you found Rebecca, along comes another one. I find that as dubious as the river source discussion :)
I AM the real Rebecca. Admittedly though marrying Paul isn't high on my "to do" list...
“to be a river, you have to flow on top of the ground”? I know several rivers in London that disagree with you there 🤣
and Headley(sp?), you are a great fun addition to the video and play off of the duo perfectly 😎
Thanks! I really enjoyed doing this. Paul and I had discussed it for weeks on our Wessex Ways podcast and I just said to him- "we need to drive out there and work it out for real"
... and Isaac and his Gran have explored both Seven Springs and Thameshead ... somewhere I have pictures.
Drove past Seven Spring on my way to my kids rugby match at Stow last Sunday, was telling him we just driven past the source of the Thames and he didnt believe me!!
He was right not too!! 🤪
Very fun video! It was only a few months back (or late 2022) when I saw a US news story about how the source of the Thames had dried up -- and they were only discussing the Leland-designated source, but I knew that you guys would find the truth!!!! 🙂
So interesting? You all seemed to be having great fun in your search. This was really educational. Thank you.
I loves being a guest on this one!
Brilliant. The College is what I knew as Ullenwood Manor. My Dad used to supply school books to it occasionally.
Timely, I was at Seven Springs today (on a walk from Leckhampton). Curious to think the Thames watershed gets that close to Cheltenham, which I'd think was more Severn territory
TY🙏🙏
This video is adorable!
Great isn't it
As always , an interesting video. I liked the quick cutaway at 9:12 lol.Greetings from Australia.
A watercourse that only flows when there is heavy rain is not a river, but a bourne.
Yes, that could apply to Thames Head. I believe the National Star College spring is flowing all year around, but I would have to check.
Fascinating! Love the humour, too. I wonder whether the source's location will be officially confirmed any time soon.
Wonderful.
@9:13, a trifle naughty.
Nice work.
Exciting!
May I Say! Thoroughly enjoy all the maps all the pictures including the scenery all the entertainment along the WAY!
Subscribe and Smash the Bell!!
Welcome and thanks
Another great video. A campaign to get OS to change their maps should be started.
The source of the Thames is now always going to be Thames Head. What can change is how the river lengths are listed, like the Murray-Darling and the MIssissippi-Missouri, we now have the Thames-Churn.
Good leg work!
LOL good stuff, thanks!
That was interesting. Lost count how many times travelled that road plus been to the Thames Head.
Nice video. Thanks.
Thank you too!
I have read that Heinz Tomato Ketchup is prohibitively expensive nowadays, hence many people are going on quests to find a new sauce 😁
Condiments on your joke!
Yea, but if you have two adjoining cupboards both with a Ketchup in them, the closest to you is easier so why bother going to the furthest away!
This is soon to be the new "I'm Spartacus" 😂
All very interesting ... but there's a key thing you omitted to mention: just across the road from Seven Springs is the Seven Springs Hotel which is my grandson Isaac's favourite places for breakfast! They do Belgian waffles with bacon. And 7 springs is the source of the Churn which flows right past Tesco Extra in Cirencester which is where I charge my EV when visiting Isaac who lives just walking distance away!
Not Again ! Look , Tomato, Brown , can you make your mind up OK Daddy ?
Mayonnaise
I'm not sure where you got your definition of the "source" of a river, but there are plenty of counterexamples, most notably the Mississippi River in the USA whose source is in Minnesota, but a substantial fraction of its flow comes from much further away where the Missouri River rises near the Rocky Mountains and joins the Mississippi at St.Louis.
It really all depends on which branch, going upriver, keeps the name.
Oxford English Dictionary. 👍
That goes to show that the Missouri is the upper part of the Mississippi. And before that, Brower's Spring, Hell Roaring Creek and Red Rock River are the upper part of the Missouri, and therefore of the Mississippi. It doesn't matter if different reaches of the river are given different names. The Mantaro, Ene, Tambo, Ucayali and Solimões are all parts of the Amazon despite their different names.
... as well as what definitinon you use,
for example in Switzerland;
- the "Sources of the Rhine" is similar complicated, if you go for example by "larger discharge" most of the Rhine suddenly becomes Aare
- then there is the Orbe that sources near Les Rousses, disappears naturely underground (mostly) in Lac de Joux and (finally) in Lac Brenet appears again powerful "Source de l’Orbe" near Vallorbe merges with the Talent near Orbe (the municipality), takes the name of Thielle/Zihl and wents to the Aare ... by the way I recomand "Grottes de Vallorbe" incase someone is nearby
there should be numerous examples of depending on rules about rivers, how to use them and exceptions.
Using flow as a determinant, you could make a good argument to rename the lower part of the Mississippi River to the Ohio River. At their confluence near Cairo IL, the Ohio has 40% more water flow than the Mississippi. As a comparison, the Missouri and Mississippi are about equal in volume at confluence (it varies based on time of year).
Wouldn't the elevation where each candidate rises be a factor? (Just to muddy the waters more.)
Some lovely drone shots from Headley (Rebecca? 😜) as ever. I assume there must be a reluctance from cartographers etc to actually correct where the source of the Thames is as it patently isn’t Thameshead or seven springs!
Thank you. (Becky x)
You can never have too many Rebeccas.
Maybe the source of a *river* is the highest navigable -- by, say, canoe/kayak/SUP -- point. But even that depends on flow volume which is always run-off (ie, weather) dependent.
That's an interesting 'development'!! I wonder what the residents/council of Cricklade will have to say about that as they claim to be the 'First town on the River Thames'! I fear that someone might be knocking your door very soon bringing a 'Desist' order!! ;-))
I personally would be OK I think, I live in Didcot. That would be a brave Cricklade resident that makes that takes that kind of chance...
Brilliant 👍
I am well jealous off your map collectio
The source of a river is the ferthist highest point from the river mouth, the seven springs is said to be the highest but I do wonder if the source of the river Clone is not higher,and the river Windrush is the longest water course,there for therefore they both have a claim to be the source of the Thames.
Are you going to tell Martin Zero that a culvert isn't a river. 😈
I shall listen out for the scream.
Totally thought this as we were filming
Is this the new "I'm Spartacus"?!
Of course, the easy way to determine which is the real Rebecca is to see which one can stomp through the nettles in leather trousers in the high heat of summer, and still maintain their dignity.
Oh now I am sure that I can do this. Ahem, yep. 😅
I noticed last week the copyright year at the end still said 2022. I didn’t say anything then, but just can’t keep it in any longer.