Decline a Draw Only To Lose? || Stockfish vs Leela || TCEC Superfinal Season 17
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ต.ค. 2024
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Stockfish vs Leela Chess ZERO
TCEC Superfinals GAME 7
Vienna game (C27)
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Antonio Radić
AGADMATOR d.o.o.
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Agad’s seamless transition from “I’m probably gonna burn a lot of stuff on wood now” to “now, getting back to the game” is the reason I love this channel
Everyone is looking for stuff to do during the lock down.
You just got 4 likes the moment I liked your comment😊
@@nevenfarahat2949 th-cam.com/video/6Mu1vIWnoKo/w-d-xo.html
@@halneufmille check this game out😂😂th-cam.com/video/olRZFRqu6yM/w-d-xo.html
"You want to go for a three-fold repetition?"
"Nah."
"Cowabunga it is."
The analysis is wrong there. Kh2 draws, but black is completely busted if white plays Kh1 instead. Repetition ideas don't work then.
Leela actually went for the most challenging line there.
@@AlayanT th-cam.com/video/6Mu1vIWnoKo/w-d-xo.html
@@mastergoatlebron9400 why do people link to random mk vids?
@@yarielrobles9003 idk but it's driving me nuts. lmao
@@yarielrobles9003 self promotion prolly
0:00 Hello everyone
0:36 Nice knight
0:59 Sorry about that
2:49 Completely new game
11:08 Captures captures 6:34 14:00 (...and captures!)
14:42 Suspicious looking king
Wait for it
........ Wait for it .........
Agadmator: sorry about that
Ok now I can watch peacefully
What is he even doing? Scratching his foot?
@@batistalift idk i have been working on many theories he can be doing anything litterally
On wikipedia it says hes adjusting his audio equipment
Legend has it his giving morphy a fist pump
@@batistalift lowering his volume so that the moves aren't as loud.
"some men just wanna watch the wood burn."
@@calebmauer1751 th-cam.com/video/6Mu1vIWnoKo/w-d-xo.html
It smells nice too
14:42 "king captures" suddenly rook promoted to king
Look at those scary eyes... Leela looks like she's about to start to burn a lot of stuff onto wood now.
lol that's cortana from halo
She gives many people without girlfriends a hard-on, though I can only imagine.
And it was as of this moment that Agadmator announced his future career as an arsonist
None of the engines analysing the game in real time (including Stockfish!) thought that that position was a draw, though: www.tcec-chess.com/archive.html?season=17&div=sf&game=7
Don't ask me why!
Because it wasn't! Agad's engine is probably outdated
Because Kh1 instead of Kh2 wins :)
#suggestion Hey Antonio! It would be great if you could analyze 2 games in one video: First game and a rematch. This way we could see better the differences between how these two deal with certain positions. The video might be a bit longer but we will never get bored of your analysis anyway.
Best regards sir
Bakar Duadze agreed
@@orchidquack th-cam.com/video/6Mu1vIWnoKo/w-d-xo.html
@@mastergoatlebron9400 what?
Agreed
Perfect
Maybe it's because it's an AI, maybe it's because the picture, maybe I am just fond of the style of play, but I must admit... I ALWAYS am silently rooting for Leela in her games, no matter who she plays
simp
zan Imagine unironically using the word simp. Also I like that she’s basically a semi-perfect human chess player with personality and not a huge database like stockfish
@@aquidillion simp
@@felipeguzzonsenhorini1051 back off leela is a QUEEN
@Adamın Biri now that the fish has a neural network, he will be king forever
"I am probably going to burn a lot of stuff"
-Agadmator in the quarantine
>”Decline a draw only to lose”?
(Robert James Fischer would like to know your location)
it was no draw stockfish was evaluating completely winning for white at move 29 which was that bb2 at 5:45. Leela was tied that down at that point and there was no drawing chanced. Agad got that wrong.
@@Stockfish1511 Evals are not always correct. So even if SF eval was correct that logic is flawed.
@@dannygjk lol you dont know about chess engines. +2 for stockfish in a tablebase position is event horizon. Sf at that point sees a tablebase win no matter against who it plays.There are not logic at that point sf literaly calculates the position to a win. Stop overdramatising with "does not understand the logic" crap. Pure calculation. No logic needed.
"(Robert James Fischer would like to know your location)"
Who you gonna call? GHOSTBUSTERS!
@@Stockfish1511 I'm not talking about when an engine finds a solution while it's searching due to a EGTB hit... and I know how engines work I studied engines, game theory and comp sci.
In the first half of the game.. Leela's pawn storm appeared overwhelming.. But stockfish wasn't there to just enjoy the show..
It might be winning but would be extremely difficult to do it against SF even for Leela. I know if I was playing white I would not be optimistic.
There was no draw, SF predicted leela's next moves in his point of view and already had a pretty high evaluation for white (as well as Leela).
9:47 -- A Kh2 reply to Qxe4 draws, but Kh1 wins for White. So, no draw for Leela if "she" plays Qxe4.
11:18 -- Stockfish's own calculations consider Qg6 to be the best move here for Black (and slightly better than Ba6 to chase the White rooks around for awhile). Qg6 keeps an eye on both the e4 pawn as well as the h5 square.
I laughed so har at "i'm probably gonna burn alot of stuff into wood"
Antônio Salgado Aragão lmao 😂
That's my boy Stockfish!
so glad agadmator burns thing into wood now
this man keeps being the legend we all know him to be with these great one-liners
Absolutely brilliant segway into the wood burning segment there Agad . . . smooth, real smooth.
More neural network and/or engine games please!!!! Love the channel. Been watching consistently for over a year and a half. Love your work, agadmator!
Never did I ever expect to see the Frankenstein-Dracula Variation in top tournament play!
R u aware tht the engines are forced to play those openings.even the KGA will b played later on in the tournament
Tichaona Mirirai Mutamba Yes, but I wasn’t aware of the openings they’d choose. I play the KGA as White too :-)
Agadmator has acquired the skill 'Engraver I'.
Agad found the drawing position while Leela a super engine couldn't, that's amazing.
Muskan Rai I see agadmator vs stock fish
Muskan Rai It was Stockfish's evaluation
i understood that she did, but didnt want it because she wanted to win
There also would be (9:55) f3xe3 so not really a draw
I think the goal of winning is not calibrated properly as doing draw repetition tactics which win if the opponent makes a mistake makes sense. But going for a win which only works if the opponent makes a mistake as opposed to a clear draw is a bad optimization. Obviously the draw would be a priority in that case and the key to neural networks has been defining the goal which is going for lines with wins or draws and no forced losses. Not going for wins with possible guaranteed losses as those should be pruned from the tree. Certainly makes the engine more fun for a human opponent but would be senseless for TCEC
The scary part: the AI refuses draw only wants victory , it reminds me of matrix movie, where the bad guy said: i want everything, mr Anderson
Leela didn't refuse draw, Kh1 instead of Kh2?? is completely winning in the Qxd4 check line.
Both Stockfish and Leela sees that very quickly, the endgame is much easier for white than in the line Leela went for, that was still very challenging.
@@AlayanT th-cam.com/video/6Mu1vIWnoKo/w-d-xo.html
there was no draw. Agad got it wrong. Sf was evaluating as completely winning at bb2 which was the move at 5:45. Leela would take the draw if there was a chance, but it was completely lost.
1 thing that you should know is that we love chess engine games(at least i extremely enjoy them) so i would really suggest to show more engine games as well(same as you are doing recently :)
I hope Leela wasn't too sad afterwards
Congratulations Antonio! You're an amazing wood burner
Usually in a drawish position my opponent asks me for draw and I decline playing for win, but in the end I lose..
Agadmator: I'm a wood burner now, so...... Yeah
Agadmator thanks for making such instructive videos.
Your videos really helped me so much to improve my chess.
Regards:)
That is such a nice aggressive conversation between these 2 engines throughout the game
14:41 “rook captures, king captures, and pawn captures on F4.”
What he really meant was rook captures rook captures aaaaaand pawn captures on F4. Duh you guys. Agadmator does not make mistakes, he only mispronounciates.
After Qf2 there is no draw, white can take on e4 removing the defedner of the bishop, white has to defend with Qe2. White can then give up the rook for Qf5 and black is pretty much getting mated with Qf8+ ideas. Or so says stockfish
I must say, I do like engine games! And the TCEC finals are the cream of the engine play!
That is a very interesting exchange sacrifice. At 4:00 Leela is in the end game while Stockfish still in development!!! Such a cool game.
@9:45 Qxd4+ was not a draw (at least by SF evaluation), it was evaluating that position at +2.31
Agad do you play halo? Great video again like always thumbs up
where is alphazero? or
Leela is the alphazero??
and what version of stockfish is this??
Leela is probalbly not alpha zero. Leela loses to stockfish and alpha zero would not likely loses to stockfish.
@@positrondecresente Alphazero does not loses to stockfish in google controlled competitions. Leela is better than alpha zero.
Leela is the open souce version for PC and not on special hardware like AlphaZero
@@ernsthuijboom2212 th-cam.com/video/6Mu1vIWnoKo/w-d-xo.html
AlphaZero was from 3 years ago and chess engines have improved a lot since then, especially Leela and Stockfish (currently version 11+). To give you an idea of the progress, the Stockfish 8 that A0 played 3 years ago was ranked #1 at the time. Today, Stockfish 8 does not even make it to the top 10 strongest chess engines. Remember the 100-game match where AlphaZero scored 64 points against SF8? Well, the top 3 engines of today (Stockfish 11, Leela, and Leelen/AllieStein) would easily achieve an excess of 70 points. A0 has done its job and there's little reason to care about it anymore.
Today is my birthday and I really enjoy watching ur videos! Keep doing what u do best :)
Love how games here have drawing opportunities. When I play, it's either I lose or have a winning position then blunder a piece.
Isn't Qxd4+ (the line Leela didn't play, because "she wants to win") just loosing for her? You say it appears to be a draw, but after Kh1 instead of Kh2 Stockfish is completely winning.
I usually don't correct your mistakes, but this time the whole video is about it, so I kind of had to xD
Do you have any photos from the players during this match?
Yes. Engine beauty. How i love this channel and its wonderful subscribers. Where you even enjoy the comment section
Lets go stockfish lets get your revenge i m with you
Agad, an excellent engraver of wood!
Please, we need more of these videos👌👌👌👌
At 12:55 , can the black play RxF3? Is the white king allowed to capture the rook after that since the piece defending it is the bishop which is pinned to its own king. I've always been confused with this
Agad starts a wood burning hobby and the ad that plays begins with a house burning down. (Little fires everywhere)
Could someone explain how “leela chess zero“ works and what‘s the difference to alpha zero? I would be very thankful because I have no clue of all this technical stuff
Leela Zero was created by a Stockfish developer to mimic the success of Alpha Zero, as the exact coding for Alpha Zero had been kept secret. Both are neural networks, meaning they learn over time by adjusting the 'weights' of branches by playing a large number of games
Self learning algorithm (improved by playing against itself or learning from human games) vs brute force as many positions as possible and decide if the position is good based on human style analysis (castling is good....king safety is good...etc). Neural network engines tend not to come with any human analysis baggage and look at chess from scratch for themselves. We teach traditional engines how to play chess, neural networks teach us how to play chess.
Hey agad, did u intentionally lost the game against indian comics??
Does anybody know the time format the engines are playing for?
great video agad, as always.
At around 2 minutes he says “the first move stockfish makes by himself”. What does he mean by this please?
Shermaine Rodriguez For engine games, they are given preset openings (as if the engines had their own choice, they’d play the same openings and it would be boring), and that was at the end of the preset opening, and thus stock fish finally had “free reign”
At 8:05, isn't Qd8 (instead of the line shown with Qxc6) just mate?
"Decline a Draw Only To Lose?" -happens to me 1 in every 5 games. 😞
Happens to me I 99 over 100 games. I just never end a game in draw. At least very few
What is the both engines rating ?
Hey Agadmator! I just wanted to say I'm a huge fan and I've been watching your videos for about two years now. I've been playing chess since I was 5 but watching your videos has motivated me to join a chess club and start playing tournaments again! Thank you for uploading quality chess analysis videos and I am looking forward to you hitting a million subs in the near future. I would be honored to play against you some time...
Where is alpha zero in TCEC?
As far as I understand, Leela is basically Alpha zero, meaning that it's based on the Google paper about Alpha zero.
@@ale86pi th-cam.com/video/6Mu1vIWnoKo/w-d-xo.html
@@ale86pi Never knew that. But then why is it given a different name as AlphaZero? I mean, they are two different chess engines, right?
@@Alpha-nu7xn Yes, they're different. L0 is just a best-effort copy of A0. It's not exactly the same code, not the same people, not necessarily the same training.
@@russianbotfarm3036 Thanks. So as far as I understand, Leela chess is a similar engine to alpha zero,... Correct me if I'm wrong, so alpha zero doesn't take part in competitive competitions like TCEC?
Very interesting how leela played that new move
Even the laziest King flees wildly in the face of a double check! ☆
Pls tell me agadmator what is the time in your country when u were shooting this video
Well, he's in Croatia, so . It's 18:40 (6:40 PM) now
Time difference in countries is probably different, but it seems like he films the same day he posts, since he does tournament games analysis on the same day.
@@generalfalcon1823 th-cam.com/video/6Mu1vIWnoKo/w-d-xo.html
5:44 Is here Nf5 a good move? It seems like it does everything, attacking the rook and the bishop, and if black simply defends the bishop with the queen, white can still play Rxd5 and if queen recaptures, then knight eats the rook Nxh6.
Hm I guess it runs into Qxc3 and that's a problem...
Is that CNC engraver?
#suggestion " Levon Aronian vs Vladimir Kramnik 1 2018 Candidates Chess Tournament " Have you ever analyzed this brutal game?
I've noticed that engines seem to push too hard for victory in games that are drawn, and open up weaknesses that lead to their defeat. I play Stockfish on Lichess level 5, and have had some wins for exactly that reason: the game was drawn but the engine kept attacking until it opened up a weakness I could exploit.
Agad: "Im probably going to burn a lot of stuff"
Excellent Subscribers: Pause the video! Pause the video!
And it was in this position Adgmator called the fire brigade.
“Do u capture or not capture the pawn?” Looks like Hamlet
06:50
Stockfish: no sis u can't go Kc7 cause *shows complicated line* and I'm winning
Leela: yea ok trust ya
This game should have had the title of the previous game. Leela goes barbarian mood!
It's not a draw if you go QXD4 because KH1 followed by QH5 keeps the game very much in white's favour
Will you show alphazero games?
AlphaZero isn't the greatest one anymore. Per comments I saw in another thread, the Googlers aren't interested in keeping it up - it was just to prove that the technique they used for Go would work for chess, too. So development has stopped, and it's out of date. Both Stockfish and Leela Zero are better, now, than Alpha Zero was when it stopped. Leela Zero is the non-Google, open-source-from-AlphaZero-papers, Alpha Zero successor, and could beat its daddy, now (all per comments I read). _Could_ Google bring back AlphaZero? No doubt. But they've moved on to other things, like maybe Star Craft.
@@russianbotfarm3036 oh, sorry I didn't know that fact
Those engine end games are maddening... and interesting.
What's the time control
Hi..
How is Leela Zero different from Alpha Zero..?
Same principals but Leela just has way more training
Even a machine should know when it's beaten!
Nugent is pronounced New gent as in gentle. Enjoyed this engine game keep up the good work
My only question is, "Why did you use Cortana" on your thumbnail?"
@Alexander The Great When I googled it, the first thing it showed me was a Green Cortana. TIHI. I'm legit dying XD
@@biveksharma4413 th-cam.com/video/6Mu1vIWnoKo/w-d-xo.html
Why at 12:03 didnt Lela play biship E2 ??? It would assure an draw because it would grab an pawn.
rook e1
If Be2, white has Re1, attacking the bishop and pinning it (being in the same file as the black king) and black cannot defend the bishop and will end losing it
Ye, didnt notice that pin tx
@@wagfeliz th-cam.com/video/6Mu1vIWnoKo/w-d-xo.html
Do a giveaway with your engravings! That is super cool :)!
agadmator is literally the most underrated youtuber of all time
No
Sumanth Sunchu he deserves a million subs tho
He’s really great. But his channel is the chess channel with the most subscribers. If you still think he doesn’t have enough subscribers, maybe it’s just chess in general which is underrated.
Maybe you’re right after all
Matteo Gauthier that’s a great point and your probably right that chess is underrated
Time to start a TH-cam rating system then. With NM, CM, IM, FM, GM titles?
May I ask why Alpha Zero isn't participating in this engine competition ?
Google doesn't want it to compete in open tournaments. They don't see money or advertising in doing so. Tournaments would be delighted to have it compete.
Because is not a publicly available engine
How about some new games of alpha zero vs stockfish ??
Alpha Zero is passe, now. And the version of Stockfish that it beat, is now old. This current game, afaik, is state-of-the-art computer chess, except for the human-forced opening.
No one:
Agad: I burn wood now.
This is the famous Frankenstein-Dracula variation of the Vienna opening.
Can anyone tell me y alpha zero is not a part of this??
Because is not a publicly available engine
"I'm probably going to burn a lot of stuff"
-Agadmator
14:41 it should be "rook captures" and not "king captures" because the king is lazy and lets orders others to do things for him.
Leela didn't decline a draw with queen captures pawn !
Yes, if after Qxd4 white plays Kh2, it's a draw, you're right. But white doesn't have to play Kh2 ! The correct move is Kh1. Then, black is completely busted. It was very difficult for Stockfish to win the endgame Leela went for ; but after Qxd4 Kh1, it's trivial for top engines to see black is dead lost. Sample Stockfish output after Qxd4:
info depth 35 seldepth 67 multipv 1 score cp 496 nodes 507080998 nps 2726036 hashfull 932 tbhits 764303 time 186014 pv g1h1 d4f6 f3e4 d3b5 g4f3 d7d6 c8b8 b5a4 d1c1 f6e5 f3h5 e7e6 b8f8
+5 eval after 3 minutes of searching on relatively weak hardware.
Deep engine checking of sidelines is a must when analyzing an engine game like this.
Hey guys. I'm a pretty low rated player (1500ish) and I've been teaching people around me chess. I'd say I've taught about 4 people now :). I taught them endgame first so they really understand how the pieces work individually and together with other pieces. Now that that's done what else should I go for? Openings? Tactics? Or do you have better ideas?
Show them just a little bit of opening (Golden rules). Then mate in 1 and mate in 2. I think there is no use teaching beginners much opening theory.
@@Rumpael yeah I've told them some basic opening principles I know but then do I just leave them to it? Anything I can do tho?
@@alfredofidelis6546
I wouldn't focus much on opening theory. I think it's better to teach them some common and important tactics and eventually, when you think the time has come, you can teach them openings.
@mysirius1000 th-cam.com/video/6Mu1vIWnoKo/w-d-xo.html
keeping doing the good stuff
Keep up the good work agamator
always enjoying stockfish vs leela chess thank you sir
What happened to alpha zero?
Per comments in another thread, its point of Alpha Zero was to prove that the method used to train Alpha Go Zero would also work for chess. It did. So Google isn't interested anymore, they're on to Star Craft or some such. In the meanwhile, Leela Zero was written from A0's papers, and is probably stronger than A0 ever was (because more self-play training time). And Stockfish has been mostly keeping up. So these are the new 'Alpha Zero's - the monster, unbeatable chess engines, except when they play each other ;)
Love a good underdog story
At 9:30 white play rg8 then black plays rg7.
What is wrong with rxg7+. Im trying to see why that is not a good move.
Nvm I realized I'm an idiot.
What happens when Agad says sorry about that and reaches down? I never notice?
I found it way harder to remember moves which were played by the engines than the moves played by the humans.
Congratulations agad you are an excellent carver of knight heads into wood