This ticks me off. My Mother is a grandmother in Sanpete County and this church has lied. Its lies have deteriorated our family connections and attacked my parents quality of life and peace of mind. This is the very reason I will never ever be back!
Same here. I look at the lives we all could have had. The further away I get from the church, the crazier it looks. Thankful to be free of all that, but several stepchildren miserable as hell, still in, just because their father believed two 19 year-old zealots from a foreign country in 1954. The accents! 💜
OK I am not a troll - and I am asking seriously - by dominant narrative it sounds like he means the Book of Mormon, Smith’s first vision accounts, all of it? Or am I confused?
38 yrs, also considered a "golden". I want those nearly 40 decades back. I want for the trauma my daughters endured to be erased. None of that can happen, yet still these creatures lie and manipulate and devour lives without any conscience or accountability.
Yes, grew up in the church. Not sure reality is any better though. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. Regardless, I’d still prefer to live in reality even if it does kinda suck too. However, I am grateful for the good things that came from being associated with the people. I learned many valuable lessons. I do wish I could reclaim my 20’s and 30’s back. Trying to be a “good” Mormon prevented me from succeeding in other areas of my life. I was running faster than my feet could follow but I thought that was just how it was supposed to be. I just assumed there was something wrong with me because it seemed like so many others were doing just fine. However, they had alot more wealth and family support they could lean on. You’d be surprised what one can accomplish when you don’t have to worry about basic utilities and repairs. Its all a crapshoot and you have to swindle your way to the top. I refuse to be inauthentic with myself and people now. Unfortunately, even in the real world people aren’t much different.
I was excommunicated along with the other September Six in 1993. My wife was excommunicated in her own right in November 2000, by a stake high council. These excommunications were connived by Boyd K Packer, who seemed ever to have confused the Church with the Air Force. The reason we and others were excommunicated was because we had been giving speeches at Sunstone or publishing there and in other venues (at least since 1980 and earlier) various warnings that the Church was in peril of losing its members because its allegedly divinely inspired apostolic leaders had lied and were lying about the Church’s theology and history. My nearly 40-year-old lament is that the Mormon revelations, especially what Richard Bushman calls the “exaltation revelations,” have been either ignored, misread, or misinterpreted by the LDS apostolate beginning with Brigham Young and ending with the most recent First Presidency and Council of the Twelve. My lament is as valid today as ever. The LDS apostles are not truth-tellers. They are not ministers of the gospel. They are administrators of the corporate church. They are not special witnesses of Christ Jesus. They are counter witnesses-because their acts betray him. When we were excommunicated for admonishing the apostles to “Choose Love Not Power,” we were ignored. At that time church historians like Richard Bushman and Jan Shipps, sociologists like Armand Mauss, LDS apologists like Teryl and Fiona Givens, BYU religion teachers like Lou Midgley and recently “woke” Brian Haulid, and researchers and writers like Daniel Peterson at FARMS (now the Maxwell Institute) did not so much as utter a whisper of support for us-not even privately. They stood by and let these excommunications occur to stigmatize us because they wanted us silenced; and they wanted to enjoy continued access to LDS leaders and to the Church’s archives. Well, now the chickens are coming home to roost-actually, the chickens are leaving home to roost elsewhere. I ask you: Who is going to believe that the LDS Church is divinely guided through its God-called apostles when they-the Church’s own apostles-have blamed its racism on the Lord? have blamed its misogyny on the Lord? have blamed its homophobia on the Lord? have blamed its xenophobia on the Lord? have worshipped Mammon by accumulating 124,000 millions of dollars and attributed that effort to the Lord? and have repeatedly lied to Church members in the name of the Lord? The LDS apostles are the Sanhedrin to the teeth. That’s the real problem. And collaborators like Bushman won’t admit it publicly because, as did the Vichy French, they profit from their complicity. I still believe in Joseph Smith’s exaltation revelations-despite his flaws; but unlike Bushman my belief does not include tolerating the hypocrisy, heresy, and mendacity of Joseph Smith’s despotic apostolic successors. Richard Bushman like the others I’ve mentioned and like others I haven’t mentioned are not to be credited. Why? Because they do not address the fact that once a special witness of the Lord lies, his testimony is rendered worthless. This is the consequence of their lying: no one will believe their report of the good news, the fullness of the gospel revealed through Joseph Smith. This is the catastrophic effect of the Church’s “false narrative” that is predicated on a foundation of apostolic lies-an irreversible effect that well-intentioned LDS apologists cannot face or admit. Of course, all this is only my humble (though mildly enraged) opinion!
@@gunnerlawts : whether Christ is a singularity, a duality, a trinity is a matter of perspective. That said, the best statement on Jesus, I believe, is set forth in Mosiah 15 of the Book of Mormon.
@@paultoscano7903 How about you try to refute my recent comment? I posted it on 'Top 10 Mormon Problems Explained', just so lots of people can think about it. Anyway, back to your effort, here: [whether Christ is a singularity, a duality, a trinity is a matter of perspective.] No - Christ is what he is, and perspectives are either right or wrong. [That said, the best statement on Jesus, I believe, is set forth in Mosiah 15 of the Book of Mormon.] Interesting; while one reads that chapter it becomes a matter of perspective, and in both statements, you have failed to reveal your perspective. No answer, really. However, fielding a chapter from a book Smith has published says a lot. If you think he made it up, then he has done the best description of Christ in your eyes, and God's infallibe bible ranks behind him. Alternatively, if Smith has just translated a second witness of Christ (God's word also), then you have kicked against the pricks.
Not sure what these people are smoking....of course everyone experiences their life, the church, their family in different ways. What matters most is my relationship with my Savior and my God. Simple and pure.
In The Holy Bible it states God does not change. He is constant and unchanging, eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. Yet the Mormon Church seems to be changing ALL the time now, flip-flopping like a fish out of water on issues both great and small, almost as though its leaders are uninspired. Now HOW could that be if someone really is a prophet, seer and revelator? Can anyone honestly imagine JC issuing an encyclical or proclamation re just how many holes each a man or woman should have in their earlobes? Give me a break! That was undoubtedly inspired as well and oh so critical to optimum functioning of BYU at the time.
I enjoyed your comment! Can I guess from it you are not (or no longer) LDS? I’ve had a lot of contact with LDS, even attending in the ‘80’s. I was baptized too, but had no idea what I was doing. (Not my smartest decision) but, I now am a Bible believing Christian & understand why I gave my life to Jesus & have absolutely no regrets!
What faithful questioners of Mormonism talk about: Did Joseph translate with the plates, or with a rock in a hat? What honest questioners of Mormonism talk about: Why is the Book of Abraham so off the mark, how did Joseph fall for the Kinderhook plate hoax, why was God hellbent on Joseph sleeping with 14 year-old girls, why is there no archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon, why are there multiple conflicting first vision accounts, etc. I can’t help but think this video depicts people in the former group.
Excommunication seems more of a scare tactic used to control the sheep. A church built on a foundation of lies has no spiritual nor eternal authority or validity.
More info here! www.mormonstories.org/podcast/faithful-mormon-historian-richard-bushman-admits-that-mormon-church-leaders-have-been-misleading-church-members-for-generations/
Deep down I know what’s true for me and my family. All churches are run by people who make mistakes. The question is whether we can forgive them and move forward.
That’s not at all the question. The question is simple - did Joseph Smith lie, or tell the truth. It’s really that simple. All indications are that he lied time and again. Even the church admits his version of the “first vision” changed. It really comes down to that. When you keep changing your story, one of the stories is a lie. I was LDS for 32 years (age 18-50). Served a mission, married in the temple, was in bishoprics, taught gospel doctrine for 4 years, raised our kids in it. And now, totally realize it’s pretty much all a lie. If the foundation is weak, the house eventually crumbles. It’s happening.
Sorry. This isn’t about human error. This is a flat out sham. Just straight up lies fir one persons own gain that somehow has continued 200 years later and we were all feeding the ego of a guy who died 200 years ago. But what’s worse. Is that as much good as it’s done fir some it’s been very harmful to many. Even a body count is associated. Think the people who died in the early years, mountain meadow massacre and even worse. I’m recent years young people taking there lives. Including return missionaries. Over a lie. A narrative that’s not true.
Forgive? Joseph Smith may have convinced himself that he was a prophet, over time, but he absolutely conceived BoM as a fraud. Even LDS historians are forced to acknowledge this. There are too many contradictions in his “visions”.
The truth of God should trump any desire to hold on to the "great community" Mormons have created within their church. Who cares if you have great friends and acquaintances within the church if you're all believing lies? Your community won't get you into heaven. They are being way too focused on the present moment and not focused at all on their salvation. If the church is a lie, you are destined for hell, not heaven. It shocks and astounds me that seeking after truth is not the number 1 factor in their faith.
I get the point for sure! Facts aren't the only issue here though ... a coherent community (or family) is, and finding a balance between the two is hard.
@@katiefischer8094 If you care about finding out what's true, then facts are the primary issue. If you prioritize what makes you feel happy over what's true, then by all means believe whatever you want. Just realize that you don't live in a vacuum and that your beliefs inform your actions and your actions have consequences in the world.
@@katiefischer8094 Not that you asked for this comment, but in all of my personal learning and discussions about philosophy with people, it seems to me that the conclusions people arrive at in their life after a long hard examination of their belief system is based ultimately on whether they prioritize some forms of happiness or whether they prioritize intellectual integrity. Personally, I'm of the opinion that there are some types of happiness that can only be acquired at the expense of one's intellectual integrity, one of those being the sense of epistemological resolve and peace of mind that comes with dogmatism. I may be wrong about that, but I think that's a feeling that can only be maintained if someone is willing to throw aside some unanswered questions or unexamined details regarding the veracity of their core beliefs. But like you mentioned, when it comes to relationships, community, a sense of belonging and life continuity, I don't think those necessarily have to be sacrificed in order for someone to maintain their intellectual integrity. I do think that one of the greatest factors in creating and maintaining social cohesion is ideological uniformity. It really does seems to be a double-edged sword. On the one hand, you are part of a strong and socially secure community where you feel free to speak about the world and about people in a way that not only you believe to be true, but in a way that everyone else agrees with. The down side is that there may not be any challenging to that widely held worldview, or very little. And in such an entrenched community, any challenge may be seen as hostile. So it would be very hard for anyone to make sure they're not wrong in what they believe about the world. It's also a recipe for tribalism with other out groups. I think religion does amplify this aspect of human nature in that it institutionalizes ideological uniformity. So it brings people together by eliminating ideological differences. You can only be baptized if you believe these particular things. And we see the disadvantages of this play out time and time again with people who become unconvinced of a worldview that the rest of their family and friends still believe. Anyways, the mechanics of belief and ideology been an interesting subject for me to think about since I've deconverted from the LDS faith.
@@ThomasJDavis I really appreciate your comment. I'm actually in the middle of dealing with a situation that your description fits well....FLDS though in Hildale. I'm trying to sort it out after returning from university for music in NY... I came to this podcast because I needed to hear this stuff. I find that I get sick from conflict with my family (who are still believers) about this stuff. That's why I said that the balance between truth and family was hard. I'd love to discuss this more with you if we could connect on a private platform. It sounds like you've really thought it through
So I think that something that could really help the millions of Members who through no fault of their own are being born and raised inside the church, is to influence the Culture inside the Church to become more Secular and to Value More "Secular" Education than Religious priorities and Dogma. We can still have a "Mormon Culture" if you will, but just more secular and definitely detached from Religious Loyalty towards Doctrines and Most importantly from Religious Leaders. A Reformation from inside the Church to De-radicalized The Members both Regiously and politically.
@@randyjordan5521 If only. Instead they have Prophet(s) and Leaders who are abusive and predatory towards their fellow members and most Horrendously cover up Child abuse and child predators Every Single Sunday World Wide.
The dominant narrative is not the history of The Church, but that God the Father lives and Jesus Christ, is our redeemer from sin and The Holy Ghost will comfort and teach us in the absence of The Savior. The History of The Church is the history of men, trying to do their best, but like everyone else falls short. I have considered that people who espouse different variations of the Gospel are also doing the best they can. To me, The doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS not only ring true to my sense of logic, but I have received direct words from the Holy Ghost that they are true. (believe it or not) I don't care if Joseph Smith had one or a hundred wives. At 93, I have raised a large family in The Church and I can tell you living the principles works for your success and happiness in life.
He calls them 'abstract' truths. Seems to mock the idea that people who have sought the truth regarding the LDS are somehow doing more or maybe doing more damage than those who cling to the lies of the church?
That’s one way of interpreting it. I took it as, “You can’t build a community around people all living ‘their own truth’”. So the Church needs to move closer to the facts, but if you just say “the history and the doctrine is whatever you personally want it to be”, then you don’t have a church at all.
An endlessly interesting topic. My personal solution to this problem is that I think the gospel which Christ taught is completely true. However, the "gospel" which they church headquarters today preaches and practices deviates in many very serious ways from the gospel which Christ taught. Unfortunately, there are not many people who know enough about religion and religious history to be able to make that critical distinction between the gospel and its current teachers and administrators. Unless most of us get a lot smarter, we will never get out of this current discussion loop.
Until you realize Jesus is a “Myth”. The same goes for the Book of Mormon, it’s a made up “story” written by someone else that includes copied parts of the Bible. 😳
Once I realized how Joseph Smith fabricated MORMONISM and exploited his followers, the scales fell from my eyes and I saw religion for what it is: A system of beliefs and rituals created by humans to enslave the minds of other humans, exactly like a computer virus takes over a computer.
@@provetome1199 Interesting. I would like to ask you what, out of everything that we consider "history," do you consider real and which you consider myth? I'm going to guess that you believe almost everything that you are told about history you consider myth. Was Moses real, was Egypt real, where the Jews real? Was the Roman empire real, or was that just another myth? Has there ever been such a thing as the Roman Catholic Church? Or was that just a myth? Were there any actual world leaders named Stalin, Mao, Hitler, King George III, George Washington, etc., who were not just figments of some storytellers imagination? Since the entire Western civilization is based on the teachings of Jesus, even including our dating system, it does seem like a few billion people have actually believed that he existed and had something interesting to say. I don't think your strategy of calling everything older than you are a myth is really going to be a very good argument for most people. Your world, where everything prior to you is a myth, is going to be a world inhabited by very few, perhaps only one. In your frame of reference, I assume that the Bible itself is a total myth, so what is the problem of one myth referencing another myth?
Can you cite a specific church history that was falsely told by a church leader? and pls include the name of the church leader and your references from the church official resources. Tnx
George Smith telling the story for the first time in 1868 about Thomas B Marsh and the milk striping story to explain his disaffection from the church rather that saying it was is opposition to Mormon vigilantes in the Mormon war.
One thing is clear. He will live miserable for the rest of his life because there is no better religion that he can be with or create. Have we not learned from those who had fallen from the Church. This rather proves to me that even the very elect can be deceived. I don't know why people don't get it. Truly the words of Dallin H Oaks about our strengths can be our downfall is real.
This ticks me off. My Mother is a grandmother in Sanpete County and this church has lied. Its lies have deteriorated our family connections and attacked my parents quality of life and peace of mind. This is the very reason I will never ever be back!
Same here. I look at the lives we all could have had. The further away I get from the church, the crazier it looks. Thankful to be free of all that, but several stepchildren miserable as hell, still in, just because their father believed two 19 year-old zealots from a foreign country in 1954. The accents! 💜
When I first heard these comments, I almost couldn’t believe it. I have since spent the last year deconstructing the dominant narrative.
Good work, bro!
Congraduations. Welcome to the other side.
RB: "The dominant narrative is not true". That's all he really needed to say.
@GingerBee77 Are you asking because you really don't know or you're trolling me? I can't tell on text, sorry.
@@TP-om8of Awesome! Are you Grendel from Beowolf? I'd like your autograph 😁
OK I am not a troll - and I am asking seriously - by dominant narrative it sounds like he means the Book of Mormon, Smith’s first vision accounts, all of it? Or am I confused?
@GingerBee77 basically all of the church's truth claims are their dominant narratives.
@@tkdgalsamm yes, exactly, you are correct.
Figured out the lies 22 years too late. Wish I could get that time back, but I'm out now and so thrilled to finally be living life.
Me too
Decades and decades as a golden convert completely wasted over so many lies??!!!
Devastated 😭
38 yrs, also considered a "golden". I want those nearly 40 decades back. I want for the trauma my daughters endured to be erased.
None of that can happen, yet still these creatures lie and manipulate and devour lives without any conscience or accountability.
Never too late to leave! Good for you!
Yes, grew up in the church. Not sure reality is any better though. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. Regardless, I’d still prefer to live in reality even if it does kinda suck too. However, I am grateful for the good things that came from being associated with the people. I learned many valuable lessons. I do wish I could reclaim my 20’s and 30’s back. Trying to be a “good” Mormon prevented me from succeeding in other areas of my life. I was running faster than my feet could follow but I thought that was just how it was supposed to be. I just assumed there was something wrong with me because it seemed like so many others were doing just fine. However, they had alot more wealth and family support they could lean on. You’d be surprised what one can accomplish when you don’t have to worry about basic utilities and repairs. Its all a crapshoot and you have to swindle your way to the top. I refuse to be inauthentic with myself and people now. Unfortunately, even in the real world people aren’t much different.
I saw this when it happened. Sent it to tbm relatives. It was never spoken about to me. I resigned in Nov 2015. Happy old lady!
Good for you! Have you given up on God, or finding another way to worship?
It's going to be a struggle for the next 2 or 3 decades is right best thing he said right at the end
Thanks for the transcript. The audio is bad and hard to decipher.
Good thing that there’s a transcript in the description
The lies and the damage the Mormon church dors to families and individuals is huge. I am so much happier now that I have left.
Bushman is exactly right. It will be interesting to watch.
Wow! 😲 Hallelujah? This needs to be seen & seen & seen. (Nevermo)
He said the quiet part out loud.
Thanks for sharing, Awesome clip!
Bushman is an absolute legend!
He probably wishes this video doesn't exist.
Why?
I was excommunicated along with the other September Six in 1993. My wife was excommunicated in her own right in November 2000, by a stake high council. These excommunications were connived by Boyd K Packer, who seemed ever to have confused the Church with the Air Force.
The reason we and others were excommunicated was because we had been giving speeches at Sunstone or publishing there and in other venues (at least since 1980 and earlier) various warnings that the Church was in peril of losing its members because its allegedly divinely inspired apostolic leaders had lied and were lying about the Church’s theology and history.
My nearly 40-year-old lament is that the Mormon revelations, especially what Richard Bushman calls the “exaltation revelations,” have been either ignored, misread, or misinterpreted by the LDS apostolate beginning with Brigham Young and ending with the most recent First Presidency and Council of the Twelve. My lament is as valid today as ever.
The LDS apostles are not truth-tellers. They are not ministers of the gospel. They are administrators of the corporate church. They are not special witnesses of Christ Jesus. They are counter witnesses-because their acts betray him.
When we were excommunicated for admonishing the apostles to “Choose Love Not Power,” we were ignored. At that time church historians like Richard Bushman and Jan Shipps, sociologists like Armand Mauss, LDS apologists like Teryl and Fiona Givens, BYU religion teachers like Lou Midgley and recently “woke” Brian Haulid, and researchers and writers like Daniel Peterson at FARMS (now the Maxwell Institute) did not so much as utter a whisper of support for us-not even privately. They stood by and let these excommunications occur to stigmatize us because they wanted us silenced; and they wanted to enjoy continued access to LDS leaders and to the Church’s archives.
Well, now the chickens are coming home to roost-actually, the chickens are leaving home to roost elsewhere.
I ask you: Who is going to believe that the LDS Church is divinely guided through its God-called apostles when they-the Church’s own apostles-have blamed its racism on the Lord? have blamed its misogyny on the Lord? have blamed its homophobia on the Lord? have blamed its xenophobia on the Lord? have worshipped Mammon by accumulating 124,000 millions of dollars and attributed that effort to the Lord? and have repeatedly lied to Church members in the name of the Lord?
The LDS apostles are the Sanhedrin to the teeth. That’s the real problem. And collaborators like Bushman won’t admit it publicly because, as did the Vichy French, they profit from their complicity.
I still believe in Joseph Smith’s exaltation revelations-despite his flaws; but unlike Bushman my belief does not include tolerating the hypocrisy, heresy, and mendacity of Joseph Smith’s despotic apostolic successors.
Richard Bushman like the others I’ve mentioned and like others I haven’t mentioned are not to be credited. Why? Because they do not address the fact that once a special witness of the Lord lies, his testimony is rendered worthless. This is the consequence of their lying: no one will believe their report of the good news, the fullness of the gospel revealed through Joseph Smith.
This is the catastrophic effect of the Church’s “false narrative” that is predicated on a foundation of apostolic lies-an irreversible effect that well-intentioned LDS apologists cannot face or admit.
Of course, all this is only my humble (though mildly enraged) opinion!
Wow. Powerful stuff. Thank you for sharing, Paul.
Paul, tell me? - is the Lord the Jesus Joseph Smith preaches, or the Jesus of the trinity most of Christianity teaches? A straight answer, please?
@@gunnerlawts : whether Christ is a singularity, a duality, a trinity is a matter of perspective. That said, the best statement on Jesus, I believe, is set forth in Mosiah 15 of the Book of Mormon.
@@paultoscano7903 How about you try to refute my recent comment? I posted it on 'Top 10 Mormon Problems Explained', just so lots of people can think about it. Anyway, back to your effort, here:
[whether Christ is a singularity, a duality, a trinity is a matter of perspective.] No - Christ is what he is, and perspectives are either right or wrong.
[That said, the best statement on Jesus, I believe, is set forth in Mosiah 15 of the Book of Mormon.] Interesting; while one reads that chapter it becomes a matter of perspective, and in both statements, you have failed to reveal your perspective. No answer, really. However, fielding a chapter from a book Smith has published says a lot. If you think he made it up, then he has done the best description of Christ in your eyes, and God's infallibe bible ranks behind him. Alternatively, if Smith has just translated a second witness of Christ (God's word also), then you have kicked against the pricks.
“People can experience Mormonism in different ways.” Yes.
Not sure what these people are smoking....of course everyone experiences their life, the church, their family in different ways. What matters most is my relationship with my Savior and my God. Simple and pure.
In The Holy Bible it states God does not change. He is constant and unchanging, eternal, from everlasting to everlasting.
Yet the Mormon Church seems to be changing ALL the time now, flip-flopping like a fish out of water on issues both great and small, almost as though its leaders are uninspired. Now HOW could that be if someone really is a prophet, seer and revelator?
Can anyone honestly imagine JC issuing an encyclical or proclamation re just how many holes each a man or woman should have in their earlobes? Give me a break! That was undoubtedly inspired as well and oh so critical to optimum functioning of BYU at the time.
I enjoyed your comment! Can I guess from it you are not (or no longer) LDS? I’ve had a lot of contact with LDS, even attending in the ‘80’s. I was baptized too, but had no idea what I was doing. (Not my smartest decision) but, I now am a Bible believing Christian & understand why I gave my life to Jesus & have absolutely no regrets!
What faithful questioners of Mormonism talk about: Did Joseph translate with the plates, or with a rock in a hat?
What honest questioners of Mormonism talk about: Why is the Book of Abraham so off the mark, how did Joseph fall for the Kinderhook plate hoax, why was God hellbent on Joseph sleeping with 14 year-old girls, why is there no archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon, why are there multiple conflicting first vision accounts, etc.
I can’t help but think this video depicts people in the former group.
When was this video recorded? I'm assuming that it was a fireside?
June 12, 2016
@@mormonstories Since you added the transcript to the video, please also add this date to the video summary above.
2016. The year I found RSR!
So what about all the people who were excommunicated?
You cannot be excommunicated from a relationship with Jesus. Should be a clue!
Excommunication seems more of a scare tactic used to control the sheep. A church built on a foundation of lies has no spiritual nor eternal authority or validity.
What's the context of this video? Where was it taken? When was the meeting? Who was there? Was is sponsored by the church?
More info here!
www.mormonstories.org/podcast/faithful-mormon-historian-richard-bushman-admits-that-mormon-church-leaders-have-been-misleading-church-members-for-generations/
so infuriating
Deep down I know what’s true for me and my family. All churches are run by people who make mistakes. The question is whether we can forgive them and move forward.
That’s not at all the question. The question is simple - did Joseph Smith lie, or tell the truth. It’s really that simple. All indications are that he lied time and again. Even the church admits his version of the “first vision” changed. It really comes down to that. When you keep changing your story, one of the stories is a lie. I was LDS for 32 years (age 18-50). Served a mission, married in the temple, was in bishoprics, taught gospel doctrine for 4 years, raised our kids in it. And now, totally realize it’s pretty much all a lie. If the foundation is weak, the house eventually crumbles. It’s happening.
Sorry. This isn’t about human error. This is a flat out sham. Just straight up lies fir one persons own gain that somehow has continued 200 years later and we were all feeding the ego of a guy who died 200 years ago.
But what’s worse. Is that as much good as it’s done fir some it’s been very harmful to many. Even a body count is associated. Think the people who died in the early years, mountain meadow massacre and even worse. I’m recent years young people taking there lives. Including return missionaries. Over a lie. A narrative that’s not true.
That’s right. Foolish man built his house upon the sand.
Forgive? Joseph Smith may have convinced himself that he was a prophet, over time, but he absolutely conceived BoM as a fraud. Even LDS historians are forced to acknowledge this. There are too many contradictions in his “visions”.
Well next they’ll be saying resurrected Jesus didn’t visit America !!!!!
That there's no Garden of Eden in Missouri!
OH MY GOSH IM FIGHTING THE URGE TO POST THIS ....EVERYWHERE
Don’t fight the urge. Save lives and post it now.
@@fromthehart1962 if only it were that simple
@@xx_mojat_xx Totally get it
The truth of God should trump any desire to hold on to the "great community" Mormons have created within their church. Who cares if you have great friends and acquaintances within the church if you're all believing lies? Your community won't get you into heaven. They are being way too focused on the present moment and not focused at all on their salvation. If the church is a lie, you are destined for hell, not heaven. It shocks and astounds me that seeking after truth is not the number 1 factor in their faith.
I'm reading Joseph Smith Rough Stone Rolling and think the author is genius.
Candid
There’s always room for alternative facts.
I get the point for sure! Facts aren't the only issue here though
... a coherent community (or family) is, and finding a balance between the two is hard.
@@katiefischer8094 If you care about finding out what's true, then facts are the primary issue. If you prioritize what makes you feel happy over what's true, then by all means believe whatever you want. Just realize that you don't live in a vacuum and that your beliefs inform your actions and your actions have consequences in the world.
@@ThomasJDavis thank you, I do agree. Good reminder
@@katiefischer8094 Not that you asked for this comment, but in all of my personal learning and discussions about philosophy with people, it seems to me that the conclusions people arrive at in their life after a long hard examination of their belief system is based ultimately on whether they prioritize some forms of happiness or whether they prioritize intellectual integrity.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that there are some types of happiness that can only be acquired at the expense of one's intellectual integrity, one of those being the sense of epistemological resolve and peace of mind that comes with dogmatism. I may be wrong about that, but I think that's a feeling that can only be maintained if someone is willing to throw aside some unanswered questions or unexamined details regarding the veracity of their core beliefs.
But like you mentioned, when it comes to relationships, community, a sense of belonging and life continuity, I don't think those necessarily have to be sacrificed in order for someone to maintain their intellectual integrity.
I do think that one of the greatest factors in creating and maintaining social cohesion is ideological uniformity. It really does seems to be a double-edged sword. On the one hand, you are part of a strong and socially secure community where you feel free to speak about the world and about people in a way that not only you believe to be true, but in a way that everyone else agrees with.
The down side is that there may not be any challenging to that widely held worldview, or very little. And in such an entrenched community, any challenge may be seen as hostile. So it would be very hard for anyone to make sure they're not wrong in what they believe about the world. It's also a recipe for tribalism with other out groups.
I think religion does amplify this aspect of human nature in that it institutionalizes ideological uniformity. So it brings people together by eliminating ideological differences. You can only be baptized if you believe these particular things.
And we see the disadvantages of this play out time and time again with people who become unconvinced of a worldview that the rest of their family and friends still believe.
Anyways, the mechanics of belief and ideology been an interesting subject for me to think about since I've deconverted from the LDS faith.
@@ThomasJDavis I really appreciate your comment. I'm actually in the middle of dealing with a situation that your description fits well....FLDS though in Hildale. I'm trying to sort it out after returning from university for music in NY... I came to this podcast because I needed to hear this stuff. I find that I get sick from conflict with my family (who are still believers) about this stuff. That's why I said that the balance between truth and family was hard.
I'd love to discuss this more with you if we could connect on a private platform. It sounds like you've really thought it through
The annoying person making noise in the background 🙄
So I think that something that could really help the millions of Members who through no fault of their own are being born and raised inside the church, is to influence the Culture inside the Church to become more Secular and to Value More "Secular" Education than Religious priorities and Dogma. We can still have a "Mormon Culture" if you will, but just more secular and definitely detached from Religious Loyalty towards Doctrines and Most importantly from Religious Leaders. A Reformation from inside the Church to De-radicalized The Members both Regiously and politically.
@@randyjordan5521 If only. Instead they have Prophet(s) and Leaders who are abusive and predatory towards their fellow members and most Horrendously cover up Child abuse and child predators Every Single Sunday World Wide.
The dominant narrative is not the history of The Church, but that God the Father lives and Jesus Christ, is our redeemer from sin and The Holy Ghost will comfort and teach us in the absence of The Savior. The History of The Church is the history of men, trying to do their best, but like everyone else falls short. I have considered that people who espouse different variations of the Gospel are also doing the best they can. To me, The doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS not only ring true to my sense of logic, but I have received direct words from the Holy Ghost that they are true. (believe it or not) I don't care if Joseph Smith had one or a hundred wives. At 93, I have raised a large family in The Church and I can tell you living the principles works for your success and happiness in life.
He calls them 'abstract' truths. Seems to mock the idea that people who have sought the truth regarding the LDS are somehow doing more or maybe doing more damage than those who cling to the lies of the church?
That’s one way of interpreting it. I took it as, “You can’t build a community around people all living ‘their own truth’”. So the Church needs to move closer to the facts, but if you just say “the history and the doctrine is whatever you personally want it to be”, then you don’t have a church at all.
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Oop👀
When and where was this?
Details here!
www.mormonstories.org/podcast/faithful-mormon-historian-richard-bushman-admits-that-mormon-church-leaders-have-been-misleading-church-members-for-generations/
Major apologist.
An endlessly interesting topic.
My personal solution to this problem is that I think the gospel which Christ taught is completely true. However, the "gospel" which they church headquarters today preaches and practices deviates in many very serious ways from the gospel which Christ taught. Unfortunately, there are not many people who know enough about religion and religious history to be able to make that critical distinction between the gospel and its current teachers and administrators.
Unless most of us get a lot smarter, we will never get out of this current discussion loop.
Until you realize Jesus is a “Myth”. The same goes for the Book of Mormon, it’s a made up “story” written by someone else that includes copied parts of the Bible. 😳
Once I realized how Joseph Smith fabricated MORMONISM and exploited his followers, the scales fell from my eyes and I saw religion for what it is: A system of beliefs and rituals created by humans to enslave the minds of other humans, exactly like a computer virus takes over a computer.
@@provetome1199 Interesting. I would like to ask you what, out of everything that we consider "history," do you consider real and which you consider myth? I'm going to guess that you believe almost everything that you are told about history you consider myth. Was Moses real, was Egypt real, where the Jews real? Was the Roman empire real, or was that just another myth? Has there ever been such a thing as the Roman Catholic Church? Or was that just a myth? Were there any actual world leaders named Stalin, Mao, Hitler, King George III, George Washington, etc., who were not just figments of some storytellers imagination? Since the entire Western civilization is based on the teachings of Jesus, even including our dating system, it does seem like a few billion people have actually believed that he existed and had something interesting to say. I don't think your strategy of calling everything older than you are a myth is really going to be a very good argument for most people. Your world, where everything prior to you is a myth, is going to be a world inhabited by very few, perhaps only one. In your frame of reference, I assume that the Bible itself is a total myth, so what is the problem of one myth referencing another myth?
@@kaijusushi8165 Marxism also fits your definition rather well. You consider it an enslaving religion?
@@kenthuff1349 it’s obvious that you are too far gone. Prove to me.
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Why did they record this video with a hotdog?
Deuteronomy 28 v 15-68. Talk about the real people of God the church has lie
Can you cite a specific church history that was falsely told by a church leader? and pls include the name of the church leader and your references from the church official resources. Tnx
George Smith telling the story for the first time in 1868 about Thomas B Marsh and the milk striping story to explain his disaffection from the church rather that saying it was is opposition to Mormon vigilantes in the Mormon war.
Historians are not perfect people, they made mistakes. That includes church official historians. NO BIG DEAL.
In what way is Bushman making a mistake?
One thing is clear. He will live miserable for the rest of his life because there is no better religion that he can be with or create. Have we not learned from those who had fallen from the Church. This rather proves to me that even the very elect can be deceived. I don't know why people don't get it. Truly the words of Dallin H Oaks about our strengths can be our downfall is real.
bull