I did what Lenny is describing. I'm trying to take baby steps into an analog rig after spending the last 2 years putting everything into Hi-Res digital. I picked up the AT-LP5X, grabbed the VM95SH as an upgrade, and a Schiit Mani 2 phono pre as a placeholder for the meantime. About $900 altogether. That is basically what you're talking about. Although the LP5X seems pretty solid to me. Not exactly "entry level" as I see it. I still need speaker and power amp upgrades but I'm not disappointed with the sound I'm getting. I grew up with an audiophile grandfather who knew his stuff and built some of his own equipment. I learned how to listen at a young age; inspired a love of music listening and playing. _I wish I had gotten his custom speakers when he passed. Oh man they were glorious._ 🤤
Is this still made? I bought one for $249 on closeout years ago. Best bargain I ever got. Worth every cent of that. Dual mono with separate power supplies and everything else
A good quality phono preamp definitely is a good option to improve your turntable’s sound playback quality. But like anything in the audio-video world, the final result will be as good as the weakest link of the chain. The turntable itself has to have good mechanical and vibration dampening features and a good motor for smooth, constant speed disc rotation. This calls for weight, especially with the disc platter. The tone arm also has mechanical requirements for rigidity and light weight. The cartridge and stylus are obviously essential. The wiring is important since the cartridge output signal is very low level. All these elements play an important part in the final playback quality, and a great separate phono preamp won’t erase any defects in the upstream links of the chain. Your hi-fi preamp or integrated amp may already have a good integrated phono preamp, or a crappy one. I would strongly advise against taking any cheap turntable and hoping to incrementally improve it into a high end result by just adding a phono preamp, changing the phono cartridge and using XLR cables. The intrinsic quality of the turntable structure and platter, motor, tone arm, internal cables, among others, will ultimately limit the sound quality. Some reasonably priced turntables, especially used, will have a good intrinsic build quality that will allow such improvement path, but most of them just won’t. Including in many famous brands…
Indeed. Also signal amplification (up to the usual « line/aux input » signal level commonly provided by all other sources : CD player, tuner, network audio player, etc.) and output impedance adaptation.
Does the ifI Zen Phono stack up at all? I know that has the subsonic filter... Not sure what the difference is vs the rumble filter you were speaking of.
rumble is sonic feedback in the low frequencies, it is not generated by the needle, but will blur the signal by imparting outside acoustic or mechanical energy to the signal.
Vintage audio has a “Subsonic” filter button or switch, that is what it is for. Turntable RUMBLE!! The needle riding in the record groove can cause Rumble.
I always kept my turntable and amp well away from the speakers. The turntable and amp went BEHIND my listening chair, and the speakers were in front of me. Maybe that helped me reduce some of the speaker interaction with the turntable. I played with lead weights on the table itself, but I couldn't tell if it helped. The weight on the record on the spindle seemed to lower the rumble of the LPs themselves. Sadly, I moved away from LPs for the most part when CDs came out. Now, I just still have my lovely...and ancient...Sansui SR-929 table...because it looks nice. I don't play it anymore.
My friend has the Macintosh MT5 turntable and the Ma9500 integrated Amp and he is getting crazy rumble feedback loop the bass drivers look like they are going to jump out of the speaker enclosure! His speakers are very close to the turntable I think the right speaker is less than a foot away from it
I have a pair of technics 1200 runnining through an omnitronic rotary mixer. Would this improve my sound running it from my mixer to my marantz2215BL amp ?
OK, So my TT Sounds pretty Darn good thru my Receivers Phono input. So you are telling me this would improve the sound on my TT if I Use this Pre-amp instead of using the Phono Stage on my Kenwood 9600 receiver? if so, do I Still use the Phono input, or the Aux input? Thanks for the video.
You will for sure get a different sound going through it on a vintage receiver. May be a great back and forth as well, and something fun to play around with. You would go into an aux input on the Kenwood. Thanks for watching!
In the last 2 years I invested in a McIntosh MA5300 integrated amp. I also bought a Fluance 85 turntable. Would the Parasound phono preamp perform better than the built in Mc phono preamp or would I be wasting my money?
Take a look at The Audio Technica AT-VM95C. Entry level cart with a conical (shaped) stylus, other stylus types available as upgrades. About 50 bucks these days.
My concern would be that some of my records that have a little noise would be amplified. My tables are all under 2000 dollars but would love to demo one.
it is disappointing that the jc3+ does not have a rumble filter .. I am experiencing this now and i have expensive equipment , I just got new speakers and am having rumble , table sits away from speakers and on a Isolation platform . my table is a 1210 g and speakers are expensive . I have tried everything except an external filter witch is on the way , my point is expensive gear can have problems too
Oh wow, you guys use "The Why Files" theme music? I believe it was Rega's (?) founder who said a turntable is the world's greatest vibration detector; most 3rd party standalone phono pre-amps are going to outperform the on-board pre-amps in most consumer grade integrated amps. The Schiit Mani 2 is incredible and can find used on ebay for well under $200 (it is crazy good for the price point).
None of these channels on TH-cam never explain XLR input how they work an how much better it could sound. No body that what we need to be made a video about it guys work on that one ....
Well,yeah. This is heavily overpriced in Europe. But even for the US special offer of 280 its not very competitive. I mean its basicly a 5532 opamp grave. Imho - for example - a Ifi Zen Phono 3 or a Project Phono Box DS2 would be the better choice . Just my 2 cents.
A Rumble Filter is just a high pass filter. Very common back in the day. Still using a Technics? Better turntables don't need them. My ERA turntable sits 2ft from my speaker and has no feedback problems.
Turntable requirements: high isolation, low rumble, low wow and flutter, precisely controlled speed, low resonance damped, level symmetric platter, system leveling, smooth reliable cueing, accurate and smooth automatic operation (if equipped), a low friction, low mass, high compliance tonearm to accomodate quality cartridge/stylus assemblies, all requisite tonearm adjustments for setup, shielded tonearm wiring, high quality low noise preamp with appropriate gain.. so many things that mean a couple hundred bucks for just the turntable is not enough to cover it. Probably need to invest about $2000 for turntable, cartridge/stylus, and preamp to get decent overall performance. .. unfortunately these days you don't get as many of turntable specs like you did on quality components in the '70's.
See if I had the money Im crazy enough to drop a $17,000 cartridge in a $200 turntable. Has anyone really pushed the limits of cheap turntables. How good can they get and can you get it just as good as a $5,000 turntable sound quality wise? Maybe if someone could really pimp out a cheap turn table it would demystify some unproven but widely spread rumors you always hear in hifi.
Personally I would *NOT* let a "rumble filter" feature determine my purchase decision for a phono pre-amp. One can design & build an excellent sub-sonic filter with a minimum of electronics and background. There is no usable low frequencies on records below 40hz. A second order butterworth High-pass filter with fc=30hz is all you need. I'm surprised these aren't sold as add-on kits/devices with switchable frequencies.
When talking "XLR" you are talking way more than just a different type of connector! When properly done, the output and input sides are very specifically designed to match. Phono level RCA will have some low impedance from a handful of windings on the cart side and tens of thousands of ohms on the other amp input side. While line level XLR balanced (not for low level phono outs) is spec'd at 600 ohms both sides. Power is transferred best when input and output impedance match. Less is lost on the cable so cable runs can be much longer with less loss. If all we did was use XLR connectors in a standard phono to single ended preamp input not much would change. It is the surrounding design configuration that makes balanced (XLR) a beter signal transfer system.
The best way to make your records sound good is using a digital preamp (adc) and sending it to a (ddc) feeding into a high end/ modern DAC with better power supply and low noise performance. 🤣🤣 at least that’s how I do it and I still get those crackly sound and the soundstage increases and the resolution 100x fold maybe more than 300$ tho
Hello Lenny, someone is commenting on a comment I put on one of your videos claiming to be you, they want me to join wattsapp on your behalf. Not sure if I did this right, but I’m trying to let you know you may be hacked or someone trying to give you grief.
are there any audio engineers in the house? your mic needs a rumble filter, and someone who actually knows how to use a compressor. some eq could help too. ever heard of a pop filter? why is the guy on the left down 12db? don't you listen to what you put out?
This is a silly discussion. "The turntable is a function." What? Everything is a function. That means literally nothing. There are many solutions for Subsonic Rumble. You can even get inline Rumble Filters that plug right into your RCA cables. If you don't have your turntable isolated from your speakers, fix that. Otherwise, Subsonic Rumble is coming from the surface of the record itself, which is why Rumble Filters exist. Built in to receivers and integrated amps from the 50s and 60s. So a Subsonic Filter, which is just a High Pass Filter, or Crossover that blocks Subsonic frequencies. This is basic. One of the single-most methods for improving sound quality is something that improves Channel Separation and Signal-to-noise Ratio. This occurs both in the Cartridge AND in the Phono Preamp. The better the Cartridge, the quieter the noise floor, and the better the separation. The better the Preamp, the quieter the noise floor and the better the separation. It's iterations of improvement. You obviously NEED a Phono Preamp. That's required. But getting a Cartridge and Stylus that is very quiet - that's a Home-Run for any Phono setup. When you can drop the needle on an LP and it's as quiet as a CD, with just the occasional few tiny clicks and pops, that is vinyl bliss. And when the Stereo Separation is very high, then the Soundstage and Imaging opens up for a very lifelike performance. It is transformative. But you can't go just on Hype. I've heard $2,000 Cartridges that sounded like trash and were bested by $200 Cartridges. Expensive Cartridges that were harsh and bright on the highs, and had almost no bass or low end to speak of. And I've had $100 Cartridges that were very quiet, and very balanced from top to bottom. You really have to either audition the Cartridge, with a seller that has a Returns Policy, or be able to hear demo audio clips. But isolating your turntable from external vibrations is basic, basic system setup. I once lived in a house so poorly constructed that I suspended my turntable from the ceiling, and if I stomped across the floor I could STILL get it to come through the turntable. But Dude, EVERYTHING is a friggin' function. I don't know what that's supposed to mean. As a final tip, if you have the budget, you can get some amazing Tube-based Phono Preamps in the $2K range. And when it comes to Preamps, whether Phono or Line-level, or both, there is some magic when it comes to a Tube Preamp vs. Solid State. But unfortunately, when it comes to Tubes, you can't cheap out. To get Tube designs of good quality, they just cost more. About $2K for a decent, dual mono design Tube Phono Preamp. Another $2K for a good Tube Linestage Preamp. Then the cost of the Turntable, plus a Tonearm and Cartridge. It's not exactly a cheap hobby if you're looking for stellar performance with a vinyl setup. But the rewards are excellent. And this is really the modest end of the market. It gets absurd very, very quickly. I don't buy into that brainwashed mindset. Buying "Used" gear is a good way to save money. But ONLY EVER buy a Used turntable if you can have the turntable - specifically the Bearing - inspected by an independent professional BEFORE you buy. People wear out, or just plain thrash the Bearing of their Turntable All. Of. The. Time. You can get screwed. Anyway, good luck, and enjoy ALL of the Functions of your stereo!
This is truly a great comment! I wish you and other people would critique all my videos like this! Awesome info for everyone who reads the comments. Thanks!🙏
I did what Lenny is describing.
I'm trying to take baby steps into an analog rig after spending the last 2 years putting everything into Hi-Res digital.
I picked up the AT-LP5X, grabbed the VM95SH as an upgrade, and a Schiit Mani 2 phono pre as a placeholder for the meantime.
About $900 altogether.
That is basically what you're talking about. Although the LP5X seems pretty solid to me. Not exactly "entry level" as I see it.
I still need speaker and power amp upgrades but I'm not disappointed with the sound I'm getting.
I grew up with an audiophile grandfather who knew his stuff and built some of his own equipment. I learned how to listen at a young age; inspired a love of music listening and playing.
_I wish I had gotten his custom speakers when he passed. Oh man they were glorious._ 🤤
The Zphono USB has a great rumble filter as well and sounds great plus can digitize your vinyl.
Is this still made? I bought one for $249 on closeout years ago. Best bargain I ever got. Worth every cent of that. Dual mono with separate power supplies and everything else
À rumble filter is also called a subsonic filter. Some older amplifiers or preamps include a switchable subsonic filter.
The KAB RF-1 is a dedicated rumble filter in a small box. $179. Put it between any phono preamp and the preamp input.
I have a Leak 130 and the included phono stage seems pretty good. Any sense of how much of an improvement I’d see with, say, the Parasound Zphono?
A good quality phono preamp definitely is a good option to improve your turntable’s sound playback quality. But like anything in the audio-video world, the final result will be as good as the weakest link of the chain.
The turntable itself has to have good mechanical and vibration dampening features and a good motor for smooth, constant speed disc rotation. This calls for weight, especially with the disc platter. The tone arm also has mechanical requirements for rigidity and light weight. The cartridge and stylus are obviously essential. The wiring is important since the cartridge output signal is very low level.
All these elements play an important part in the final playback quality, and a great separate phono preamp won’t erase any defects in the upstream links of the chain. Your hi-fi preamp or integrated amp may already have a good integrated phono preamp, or a crappy one.
I would strongly advise against taking any cheap turntable and hoping to incrementally improve it into a high end result by just adding a phono preamp, changing the phono cartridge and using XLR cables. The intrinsic quality of the turntable structure and platter, motor, tone arm, internal cables, among others, will ultimately limit the sound quality. Some reasonably priced turntables, especially used, will have a good intrinsic build quality that will allow such improvement path, but most of them just won’t. Including in many famous brands…
This is a lot of good info! That’s for sharing! It’s people like you that help the community with advice! Thanks!
The main function of a phono pre-amp is RIAA equalization
Indeed.
Also signal amplification (up to the usual « line/aux input » signal level commonly provided by all other sources : CD player, tuner, network audio player, etc.) and output impedance adaptation.
Does the ifI Zen Phono stack up at all? I know that has the subsonic filter... Not sure what the difference is vs the rumble filter you were speaking of.
I bought the ZPhono XRM when I got the Hana EL MC cartridge. Plus my Schiit Freya+ preamp has XLR inputs 😎
I would have appreciated a little more time spent on you explaining the inputs/ outputs on the back.
That’s a great point! Thanks!
Yes.
rumblefilters have been around and in preamps for a LONG time.
Warped records cause lots of rumble issues also. The tracking of the cartridge riding the warp will introduce rumble.
rumble is sonic feedback in the low frequencies, it is not generated by the needle, but will blur the signal by imparting outside acoustic or mechanical energy to the signal.
@@richardelliott8352 Sorry, that is incorrect.
Vintage audio has a “Subsonic” filter button or switch, that is what it is for. Turntable RUMBLE!!
The needle riding in the record groove can cause Rumble.
I see rumble filters on cheap turntables. No, I see rumble. Line level has a lot of loudness. Very informative guys!
I always kept my turntable and amp well away from the speakers. The turntable and amp went BEHIND my listening chair, and the speakers were in front of me. Maybe that helped me reduce some of the speaker interaction with the turntable. I played with lead weights on the table itself, but I couldn't tell if it helped. The weight on the record on the spindle seemed to lower the rumble of the LPs themselves. Sadly, I moved away from LPs for the most part when CDs came out. Now, I just still have my lovely...and ancient...Sansui SR-929 table...because it looks nice. I don't play it anymore.
Just for a bit of info. This unit is $1195AU ( $743US) over here in Australia. I'm sure it's good, but 2.5x markup good???
So what input do you use instead of the phono input..tape 1 ? DVR. ?
Any analog audio input will work
any avail. line input
My friend has the Macintosh MT5 turntable and the Ma9500 integrated Amp and he is getting crazy rumble feedback loop the bass drivers look like they are going to jump out of the speaker enclosure! His speakers are very close to the turntable I think the right speaker is less than a foot away from it
Oh yeah that’s the problem! Hopefully this video helped. If he needs some personal tips specific to his system, have your friend call us!
My ERA turntable sits 2ft from my speaker and has no feedback problems. With my ADCOM GFA555 it is not because of a lack of power or low end.
I have a pair of technics 1200 runnining through an omnitronic rotary mixer. Would this improve my sound running it from my mixer to my marantz2215BL amp ?
I just got a Pioneer PL510A
OK, So my TT Sounds pretty Darn good thru my Receivers Phono input. So you are telling me this would improve the sound on my TT if I Use this Pre-amp instead of using the Phono Stage on my Kenwood 9600 receiver? if so, do I Still use the Phono input, or the Aux input? Thanks for the video.
You will for sure get a different sound going through it on a vintage receiver. May be a great back and forth as well, and something fun to play around with. You would go into an aux input on the Kenwood. Thanks for watching!
@@LennyFlorentine Thanks Lenny!
Aux
In the last 2 years I invested in a McIntosh MA5300 integrated amp. I also bought a Fluance 85 turntable. Would the Parasound phono preamp perform better than the built in Mc phono preamp or would I be wasting my money?
Give the guys a call or text they can help narrow it down for you!
Sorry I just got a Pioneer PL 510A turntable what would be a good cartridge and stylas for this one
We have a few options that would go great, call or text us and we can give you some ideas
Take a look at The Audio Technica AT-VM95C. Entry level cart with a conical (shaped) stylus, other stylus types available as upgrades. About 50 bucks these days.
My concern would be that some of my records that have a little noise would be amplified. My tables are all under 2000 dollars but would love to demo one.
The amplification from the cartrdige all the way to the speakers , 90+% of the voltage amplification is in the phono preamp . It is that important .
I have 3 separate stereos in my house and in 2 rooms I use the z phono. For the money it's hard to beat.
it is disappointing that the jc3+ does not have a rumble filter .. I am experiencing this now and i have expensive equipment , I just got new speakers and am having rumble , table sits away from speakers and on a Isolation platform . my table is a 1210 g and speakers are expensive . I have tried everything except an external filter witch is on the way , my point is expensive gear can have problems too
This is very true. Give us a call, the guys can get a solution for you once we figure out the equipment.
Oh wow, you guys use "The Why Files" theme music? I believe it was Rega's (?) founder who said a turntable is the world's greatest vibration detector; most 3rd party standalone phono pre-amps are going to outperform the on-board pre-amps in most consumer grade integrated amps. The Schiit Mani 2 is incredible and can find used on ebay for well under $200 (it is crazy good for the price point).
Each component is price based
Example an expensive phono stage is more revealing on the turntable used weather it’s good or bad
None of these channels on TH-cam never explain XLR input how they work an how much better it could sound. No body that what we need to be made a video about it guys work on that one ....
That’s a great idea honestly
There's tons of videos on TH-cam extolling the virtues of balanced connections.
These are £749 in the UK, that's about $941
Well,yeah. This is heavily overpriced in Europe. But even for the US special offer of 280 its
not very competitive. I mean its basicly a 5532 opamp grave. Imho - for example - a Ifi Zen
Phono 3 or a Project Phono Box DS2 would be the better choice . Just my 2 cents.
A Rumble Filter is just a high pass filter. Very common back in the day. Still using a Technics? Better turntables don't need them. My ERA turntable sits 2ft from my speaker and has no feedback problems.
Turntable requirements: high isolation, low rumble, low wow and flutter, precisely controlled speed, low resonance damped, level symmetric platter, system leveling, smooth reliable cueing, accurate and smooth automatic operation (if equipped), a low friction, low mass, high compliance tonearm to accomodate quality cartridge/stylus assemblies, all requisite tonearm adjustments for setup, shielded tonearm wiring, high quality low noise preamp with appropriate gain.. so many things that mean a couple hundred bucks for just the turntable is not enough to cover it. Probably need to invest about $2000 for turntable, cartridge/stylus, and preamp to get decent overall performance. ..
unfortunately these days you don't get as many of turntable specs like you did on quality components in the '70's.
See if I had the money Im crazy enough to drop a $17,000 cartridge in a $200 turntable. Has anyone really pushed the limits of cheap turntables. How good can they get and can you get it just as good as a $5,000 turntable sound quality wise? Maybe if someone could really pimp out a cheap turn table it would demystify some unproven but widely spread rumors you always hear in hifi.
A high dollar cartridge will excentuate the short comings of a budget turn table not overcome the limitations.
@ has anyone tried to see?
Personally I would *NOT* let a "rumble filter" feature determine my purchase decision for a phono pre-amp.
One can design & build an excellent sub-sonic filter with a minimum of electronics and background.
There is no usable low frequencies on records below 40hz.
A second order butterworth High-pass filter with fc=30hz is all you need.
I'm surprised these aren't sold as add-on kits/devices with switchable frequencies.
When talking "XLR" you are talking way more than just a different type of connector! When properly done, the output and input sides are very specifically designed to match. Phono level RCA will have some low impedance from a handful of windings on the cart side and tens of thousands of ohms on the other amp input side. While line level XLR balanced (not for low level phono outs) is spec'd at 600 ohms both sides. Power is transferred best when input and output impedance match. Less is lost on the cable so cable runs can be much longer with less loss. If all we did was use XLR connectors in a standard phono to single ended preamp input not much would change. It is the surrounding design configuration that makes balanced (XLR) a beter signal transfer system.
$420 in Canada...for the lower model.
The best way to make your records sound good is using a digital preamp (adc) and sending it to a (ddc) feeding into a high end/ modern DAC with better power supply and low noise performance. 🤣🤣 at least that’s how I do it and I still get those crackly sound and the soundstage increases and the resolution 100x fold maybe more than 300$ tho
Hello Lenny, someone is commenting on a comment I put on one of your videos claiming to be you, they want me to join wattsapp on your behalf. Not sure if I did this right, but I’m trying to let you know you may be hacked or someone trying to give you grief.
They should be blocked now. Thank you for letting me know!
are there any audio engineers in the house? your mic needs a rumble filter, and someone who actually knows how to use a compressor. some eq could help too. ever heard of a pop filter? why is the guy on the left down 12db? don't you listen to what you put out?
This is a silly discussion. "The turntable is a function." What? Everything is a function. That means literally nothing. There are many solutions for Subsonic Rumble. You can even get inline Rumble Filters that plug right into your RCA cables. If you don't have your turntable isolated from your speakers, fix that.
Otherwise, Subsonic Rumble is coming from the surface of the record itself, which is why Rumble Filters exist. Built in to receivers and integrated amps from the 50s and 60s.
So a Subsonic Filter, which is just a High Pass Filter, or Crossover that blocks Subsonic frequencies.
This is basic. One of the single-most methods for improving sound quality is something that improves Channel Separation and Signal-to-noise Ratio. This occurs both in the Cartridge AND in the Phono Preamp.
The better the Cartridge, the quieter the noise floor, and the better the separation. The better the Preamp, the quieter the noise floor and the better the separation.
It's iterations of improvement. You obviously NEED a Phono Preamp. That's required. But getting a Cartridge and Stylus that is very quiet - that's a Home-Run for any Phono setup.
When you can drop the needle on an LP and it's as quiet as a CD, with just the occasional few tiny clicks and pops, that is vinyl bliss.
And when the Stereo Separation is very high, then the Soundstage and Imaging opens up for a very lifelike performance. It is transformative.
But you can't go just on Hype. I've heard $2,000 Cartridges that sounded like trash and were bested by $200 Cartridges. Expensive Cartridges that were harsh and bright on the highs, and had almost no bass or low end to speak of.
And I've had $100 Cartridges that were very quiet, and very balanced from top to bottom. You really have to either audition the Cartridge, with a seller that has a Returns Policy, or be able to hear demo audio clips.
But isolating your turntable from external vibrations is basic, basic system setup. I once lived in a house so poorly constructed that I suspended my turntable from the ceiling, and if I stomped across the floor I could STILL get it to come through the turntable.
But Dude, EVERYTHING is a friggin' function. I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
As a final tip, if you have the budget, you can get some amazing Tube-based Phono Preamps in the $2K range. And when it comes to Preamps, whether Phono or Line-level, or both, there is some magic when it comes to a Tube Preamp vs. Solid State.
But unfortunately, when it comes to Tubes, you can't cheap out. To get Tube designs of good quality, they just cost more. About $2K for a decent, dual mono design Tube Phono Preamp. Another $2K for a good Tube Linestage Preamp. Then the cost of the Turntable, plus a Tonearm and Cartridge.
It's not exactly a cheap hobby if you're looking for stellar performance with a vinyl setup. But the rewards are excellent. And this is really the modest end of the market. It gets absurd very, very quickly. I don't buy into that brainwashed mindset.
Buying "Used" gear is a good way to save money. But ONLY EVER buy a Used turntable if you can have the turntable - specifically the Bearing - inspected by an independent professional BEFORE you buy. People wear out, or just plain thrash the Bearing of their Turntable All. Of. The. Time. You can get screwed.
Anyway, good luck, and enjoy ALL of the Functions of your stereo!
This is truly a great comment! I wish you and other people would critique all my videos like this! Awesome info for everyone who reads the comments. Thanks!🙏
it's 329.00
parasound.com/products/zc-zphonoxrm
SMH
Solution is a streamer, not another riaa
Streamers don't go round and round and are not analog.