Why Won't the Starter Fit
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ต.ค. 2023
- 289 302 Starter Won't Fit! We have the solution
Issue 1
Two ring gear depths on manual shift flywheels
3/8 & 3/4
The shorter snout is the 3/8 and will be listed as manual shift
The longer snout goes to the 3/4 and will be listed as automatic on parts sites.
Two tooth counts
164 and 157
Two mid plates
4.0 and 4.1
Three bellhousings four if you count the cast iron bell housing from the Boss 302, and 4V Clevelands
One is a five bolt for pre 1966. The other is post 65 and is 6 bolt. The next is a 1968, possibly for 164 tooth flywheel. This was also in a cast iron, presumably for high performance applications
According to things I've read, the 164 tooth bell housing flywheel combo was used on Ford light duty trucks and on '69-'73 351w and 351c engines.
Davidkeeploaders.com has a really nice list of all bellhousings used
www.davidkeetoploaders.com/be...
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I personally had a 69 F100 I converted from 390 to 302. I went to my trusty auto wrecking and bought bell housing, flywheel, clutch and all else I needed off one wreck. Worked perfectly. For about 6 months. One day I started it up and the engine had a severe vibration. I figured had to be clutch or pressure plate. Wrong. I pulled it apart and here was a 28 oz piece of iron laying in the bottom of the bell housing. Someone in history had taken a 6 cylinder 0 balance flywheel and welded in a 28 oz weight. Worked perfectly until it did t lol.
Thanks for sharing that, very helpful! I wondered if a six flywheel interchanges with a 351W.
Wow...just...wow.
Exactly what I needed. Working on a 66 Mustang, 289, 3 spd. Engine was a hunk of rust. Took it apart and cleaned everything knowing it won't be the final product. Really just wanted to challenge myself and see if I could get it started. It has been off the road since 1991. Frustration hit a new high when I replaced the starter. I guess I was cocky and never looked at the starter I took off. Just assumed it was original. New starter pinion gear only hits the ring gear on the tips of the teeth. Car has sat for six months while i thought about it. I finally decided that the flywheel must be warped or the ring gear worn. I was planning on pulling the transmission this weekend. Now I know I need to measure the depth and count the teeth first. Thanks!
Glad to help
My dad was a Ford man so I grew up with them. Aggravating to say the least but, through trial and error you learned what went with what. The old saying "to many cooks can spoil the stew" same goes with Ford in their engineering department.
Amen.
Me and my father have a mustang salvage yard we've owned since the early 1970's. Every 1969-1973 mustang that was original, and manual transmission had a cast iron bellhousing with 164 tooth flywheel.
I should have said 1969-1971 351 windsor and cleveland, I don't know if we had an original 72 or 73 manual car.
My '72 Mach with a 351 Cleveland and four-speed is a D1TE truck cast iron bell.
Damn, somebody need to make a flow chart!
LOL
Once you get that engine running next episode, I'd say that calls for celebratory beers and cigars for that learning adventure lol
This definitely helped, I have a 1985 aluminum jet boat with a 460 and having a hard time finding new starter that fits, already turned in my core because they all look the same
Just what I needed ... I'm in a situation right now with this
I'm glad we were able to help
Cool fact- the C5TA and D1TA cast iron bellhousings have the bosses on the inside to mount a narrow pattern (early) Toploader or T10 trans. The aluminum bells don’t. You’d need to use the later style (larger) front bearing retainer on the trans to register it correctly into the bellhousing and have the mount holes drilled and tapped. I have this exact setup with a 4 speed Toploader in my 65 Comet. So if you have a 6 bolt engine and a 5 bolt manual trans there ya go.
This sounds so similar with the problems I've been facing lately 😅 Several years ago I decided to convert my 73 F100 from auto to manual. Some parts I bought from ebay and other parts I bought from one of NPD's competitors. Everything worked fine to start with, but it was a little noisy starting. Eventually, whole teeth started breaking off the gear on the flywheel, one by one. I needed the truck, so I would weld up that spot and reshape a new tooth on the gear to get by. Recently, I made time to look at the issue and fix it. I found out that the FE engines used a 184 and 188 tooth gear for that Era and earlier there was also a 153 tooth. I considered the diameters of each of them and realized that the diameters of each of them were too different for me to have the wrong one. What was going on? Once I got it apart and compared the new ring gear to the old, I saw it. The OD of the gears were the same, but the root diameter of the old gear was much small. The teeth were cut too thin and too deep. It turned out that it was an inferior part. I put the new gear on the flywheel and it sounds much better than the original ever did. Be careful where you buy parts from...
that's the way my 69 F100 is. it has a 69 351W out of a galaxie in it instead of the original 302
Mix and match baby!
Ah, the intricacies of getting apparently identical Ford parts to play together...good times...
LOL Right!?
As a former GM and Mopar guy, this is frustrating as hell! Shame on you Ford 😮😮
Yes.
In my area trucks are more plentiful . So 300 six bells are mixed in , all parts bolt on a 302 then you find out six cylinders are internal balance .
And then you have to take alllll that back off.
I have a 66 Fairlane that was 289 3 on the tree that I swapped for a TKX 5 speed last year. The Bell and Flywheel were 164 tooth which surprised me. It's a factory original car but original parts? I have no idea. Maybe the factory was short of 157's and did not want to stop the line that day, so they threw in what they had? Not sure but it all works. Just FYI
Yep. I've heard of 164s in early cars too. The running theory is that the 157 was for the car and 164 for truck and later 351's.
awesome job! I have 63 orig engine first introduction 289 with 2spd auto w/integrated 5-bolt bellhousing. very fearful about updating. 4spd AOD is prob easiest, and 5spd manual would be awesome, but I'm scared, man.
-- thanks for info. subscribed
Appreciate the kind words!
This is the easy end try to make a Ford front drive out of mixed parts .
Lets not uncork THAT can of worms. LOL I always tell people to get the WHOLE engine dress off of a car.
I’m going through it now. I bought a 83 automatic bronco with 351w. Starter was bad/grinding due to one ear broken off. Fast forward I buy new starter and it’s crashing into the face of the flex plate. And my flex plate sits 1/2” in so I’m now going to try a manual starter.
Starters on small block Ford can be a very vexing issue
I guess that I have been lucky all these many years. I have had to change starter snouts before.
Me too.
Hello 🤗 there Jeff, years ago, I had a bone stock, low miles, all original 81 Thunderbird, with a 255 V8, and an AOD trans. That flywheel was 28 oz w/164 tooth ring gear... I later pulled that 255 lump, and swapped in a 90 HO 5.0, which required a 50 oz flywheel, the one ordered from NPD, was a 157 tooth version.. I reused the mid plate, and AOD and it worked perfectly, to this day.. So, clear as mud, right ?
Good grief. Take it to that place in Augusta that’ll rebuild em. Monty’s if he’s still open.
I just needed a way to crank the engine. The started were both ok.
am guessing that 157 vs 164 tooth flywheel was for cost savings. The 164 tooth flywheel allows for a larger diameter clutch than the 157 tooth. As most of the cars did not need the larger diameter clutch, it saved Ford a few pennies to use the smaller 157 tooth package. The the higher power engines and maybe the heavier cars/trucks that needed the larger clutch got the 164 tooth flywheel.
Running theory is that the Trucks and 351's got the 164.
That pretty much lines up with my theory above. I do believe that the BOSS 302 got the 164 tooth flywheel and had an aluminium bellhousing. I have the question out to my good friend who knows just about everything on the BOSS's. I will post back when I hear from him.
A quick story. Way too many years ago when I was still learning about all things Ford, I got a deal on a junkyard Toploader 4 speed to do a conversion on my 65 Mustang (6 bolt block). I found out when I got it home that it was a 5 bolt block, narrow mounting pattern transmission. Well I went back to the junk yard and went thru their pile of bellhousings and found a small block Ford 6 bolt cast iron truck bell housing (164 tooth) that had been cast with bosses in the bellhousing for both the wide and narrow tranny bolt patterns but that only had the wide pattern drilled. It was not to big of a deal to drill and tap the narrow pattern into the bell and it all work fine but weighted a ton. At some point I sold the tranny off to a guy with a 5 bolt engine and got a wide pattern Toploader for my car. For some reason, I kept the bellhousing and I sill have it, just because you never know, I may need it again (ha, ha).
Just heard back from my BOSS 302 friend. He confrimed that from Ford, the BOSS 302 used a 10.5" diameter clutch on the 164 tooth flywheel and an aluminium bellhousing.
Tryed to put a 6 bolt T-10 bellhousing on a cleveland and the side of the block was in the way of inserting the starter .
Yep.
1986 Ford bronco f150 engine 351w. Flat wheel and started problems estoy confundido con esa partes lla llebo dos flatweels and 2 stater renplasadas y no puedo echarla andar
Ford should have created a Standardization Department. Could have been job security for someone.
LOL
And then there is the Mustang ll version of all of that. 148 tooth on the manual and 141 tooth on the auto. Both mid plates are different than anything else along with the bell housing.
I studiously avoided that one...
@@AutoRestoMod It reinforces my "Enjoyable Aggravation" coined phrase (patent pending)
Something on this subject to know is mustang old and Cobra lls with automatic transmission had a smaller flexplate
Sorry Mustang old and Cobra lls
Didn't know that.
C5DA-6394-A for a 6 bolt engine is the only bellhousing that will work with a 157 flywheel ! also used on 289 hipo.
Agreed. BUT the ring gear can be either at 3/8 or 3/4 there too.
If you're in Idaho, let Heath know.
I was in July!
Hi, I’m having starter issues with 351m/400 1977. Any starter works, all get bad noises and slip out after few cranks and get stock too.
Check your mounting to the block as well as look at the teeth on the starter ring and make sure the teeth are okay.