What is a CNC Router Vacuum System Table and How Does It Work
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 มิ.ย. 2023
- Welcome to this CNC router video tutorial about vacuum tables, and about how does a vacuum table work, or even what is a vacuum table for and how to enhance their hold-down power!
In this episode, you may find that your CNC router vacuum pump is just fine, that it may be your setup. We dive into vacuum mats that revolutionize the effectiveness of your vacuum table. Our focus will be on the exceptional vacuum mat from All Star CNC. To put it to the test, we'll be using the Phantom CNC router by Phantom CNC Systems, along with two router bits from IDC Woodcraft: "The BEAST," a groundbreaking roughing CNC router bit, and the 1.5-inch ultra-smooth surfacing bit. Prepare for the phenomenal results achieved in this comprehensive experiment.
Throughout our testing, the vacuum mat proved to be a game-changer, significantly boosting the suction capability of vacuum tables, such as on the Phantom CNC router. Even when subjected to aggressive cutting on a hardwood like Maple, the vacuum mat held its ground admirably. We were thrilled to witness the vacuum mat withstand the forces exerted upon it, providing an unrivaled level of stability and hold-down power.
One common question regarding MDF on vacuum tables is, can you pull a vacuum through MDF.. MDF is porous and a vacuum can be pulled through it. In this video, we will discuss how to ensure the most effective way to utilize MDF for a CNC router vacuum table.
All-Star CNC Products page w/ vacuum mat ↓
www.allstarcnc.com/all-star-c...
Phantom CNC Systems → www.phantomcncsystems.com/
Or call 253-320-1211 for more information regarding Phantom CNC routers. Tell then Garrett says hello!
ROUTER BITS DISCUSSED
1.5" Ultra-Smooth surfacing bit → www.idcwoodcraft.com/SU-15
The BEAST roughing bit → www.idcwoodcraft.com/HE-14-1
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ROUTER BITS FOR CNC ROUTERS
→ 11pc carbide CNC router bit set (w/ free vector files) bit.ly/3d1iQnF
→ 1” Surfacing bit required for surfacing your spoil board: bit.ly/2QEYLKz
***Use this discount code (SURFACING BIT)
→ Glass engraving drag bit: bit.ly/3tRy98s
Recommended Design Software
→ Vcarve Pro (RECOMMENDED)→ bit.ly/3d4WrEU
→ Vcarve Desktop → bit.ly/3D4CwjH
→ Vectric Aspire → shrsl.com/37pw9
→ Cut2D Desktop → shrsl.com/36xfm
→ Carveco (budget) → bit.ly/37rhVbY
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If you currently own a CNC router, please take a moment to take this survey to share your experience with it: bit.ly/3r5XzNh
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Please support IDC Woodcraft TH-cam channel:
Buy me a cup of coffee: www.buymeacoffee.com/garrettf...
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CNC FOR BEGINNERS PODCAST: anchor.fm/cnc-for-beginners
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Garrett Fromme
Facebook: IDCWoodcraft
Website: www.idcwoodcraft.com
Email: support@idcwoodcraft.com - บันเทิง
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Thanks Garret. Just going to start running an big cnc machine ( ha ha) well bigger than the longmill (which i still love) with vacuum table . I have been researching and know about sealing the sides.(they also recommend surfacing both sides of a new MDF board to increase porosity getting past any sealers) Brand new area to me and look forward to your further insight and I will share mine as well. CNCr's stay united. ha ha. Congrats on the new machine!!
I also appreciate the history of the scissors, that's why we love ya!! your real!!
Efishnc, you are so welcome my friend. Glad to hear this video helped clear up some things for you.
For those reading and writing comments, allow me to illuminate the science and physics that make the Tile Gaskets so effective. It has little to do with the size and CFM capability of any vacuum pump, and much more to do with the strength of the pull. For those commenting about covering up the surface area of the non-work surface on the spoilboard, that is down-drafting, which is nonefficient and far less effective when compared with vacuum clamping. A true vacuum clamp requires a small sealed cavity or chamber under the part or material where the air is evacuated creating a negative air differential below the part compared to the air pressure above the part. The Tile Gaskets accomplish this with their perforations. The gasket material seals up to the material and the holes become very powerful suction cups. In a production environment where the same part is processed over & over, we use dedicated jigs using non-porous material. For those doing work where the material, size, and dimensions change, or you need quick work without engineering a jog, the Tile Gaskets are a game changer. They become the new spoil surface rather than the MDF board. They are engineered and designed to be cut into, so no more tabs or onion skins to hold your parts, and our clients are processing with single passes due to their hold strength. Maintaining an accurate z-depth is important so as not to gauge through them preserving their effective life. Our clients use the same set for hundreds of production hours before fly-cutting them off and reapplying a new layer.
ALLSTARCNCPRODUCTS, Thanks for giving us all a little more insight on this, we appreciate it!
Good work Nice
Great video. Covered a lot, and well. I was a firefighter as well, in New York. I understand exactly what you were saying about memories , and feelings, that stay with you. …and I like the background music concept, as long as your dance moves match the rhythm 😂
kgkessler, well said brother!
Holy shit!!! 🤯🤯 That BEAST is no joke. It cut through that maple like it was pine lol.
And you sure did work the kinks out of the vacuum situation because I sure as hell couldn't move that board either. 😄
Great video, Brother. 👍
Ratpack5350, isn't the Beast awesome?! Thanks for the kind words brother, I'm looking forward to you giving the Beast a try for yourself!
That is freaking incredible!!
Mitchell, thanks brother it's awesome!
Really unbelievable performance
LuciansBircea, thanks brother! Glad you enjoyed the video.
Good information!
GoldRidgeDesign, glad to hear it brother!
The Beast was amazing!
stevef, it's awesome! I can't wait for you to give it a try for yourself brother!
The nature of vac holding is that you take away the pressure on the bottom side, and the atmospheric pressure pushes the work piece down. So no matter what pump you have ,14.7 psi downforce is all you ever get. The lateral force, however, is a function of the static friction between the vac table and the work piece. An MDF spoilboard is prone to collect a fine layer of dust which significantly reduces this friction. That is why your work pieces glide so well over the bare spoilboard, not the fact that you have some open space in the suction area.
If you covered all the free area around the maple beam, it would still have a poor lateral holding force.
That is where the rubber mat shines. There is a reason, why it has an adhesive on one side. Also, the rubber will compensate tiny imperfections in the work piece underside, which might cause poor suction as well.
A thin fleece foil will do the same trick (like a Datron VacuCard). In fact it is even better, because it does not block 85% of the suction area. And it has the benefit of easy removal.
Does the rubber and adhesive gum up your endmills when you make a through cut?
How easy does it peal off again, when you feel the need to change it?
A 1/2" or even 5/8" MDF spoilboard might be convenient, but I see more cons than pros.
I use MDF often on the vac table, especially when making through cuts. But mostly 3mm thin, same size as the work piece and the vacuum sealed with foam rubber cord directly below the surface area of the work piece. That setup has excellent holding forces and I can make clean -1mm through cuts without tape, glue etc. messing up my end mill
scratchbuiltdesigns, thanks for the insight and background on this one brother. You bring up some really interesting points here. I appreciate it!
That's pretty impressive Garret !! I just got a new (to me) a "CNC One" 1 meter X 1meter" machine made in Germany and I thought it was a "beast" but what I just saw there mine is a panzzy !! lol..
w4fej, congrats on your new machine brother! It sounds like you are having a blast with it.
Interesting solution that gives me some ideas, thanks.
The real issue is the rule of thumb is 1.4HP per sq ft of vaccuum zone is needed to produce 15lb/sq in of downforce through MDF. Salespeople like to sell 2.2kw (3HP) pumps and say they will work fine, proved here as not so fine. People can't run 10HP pumps in a small shop of home likely anyway. Thats the rule of thumb for larger work, smaller stuff you need to double or triple it.
I do a lot of cut through and sure I can be really careful and cut almost through but then I have to pay employees $40/ hr to finish it which is costly. The other option is damage the surface more and that turns a $100 spoilboard resurfaced 10 times into $2000 and a number of hours of labor, too costly of a solution.
I think this is an awesome solution for folks that do not cut through or do not cut through often. To be cost effective speed is needed in my case and our cut through is typically 1/64" (0.4mm) which is likely the compressed thickness of the foam gaskets (1/32" uncompressed).
Yes I let a salesperson talk me into a 2.2kw as adequate knowing very well it was not. But they threw it in for free basically because I refused to beleive them. I won't even hold paper down and allow you to tear it lol.
I have been looking at a different far less costly way, no idea if it will work but this concept gives it more merit. Lay a sheet of hardboard (sometimes called pegboard) with the textured side up on the spoilboard. maybe cut grooves in the MDF and through holes into the airbox to reduce restriction on the airflow. Would only need light tacking to hold in place and have similar abilities maybe. It wouldn't have the rubber like hold force or as much but would not increase the costs of resurfacing as hardboard is cheap, 10 hardboards are maybe 40% more expencive then 1 MDF spoilboard sheets. Could even spray it with a light coat of a rubberized coating. Might be able to surface it a few times but also may be more effective to just replace it (assuming its constant thickness). If it is constant thickness and the MDF is surfaced then no surfacing will be needed.
Since I seen comments , I used butcher paper to block unused area, newspaper doesn't work well and I don't think its printed much anymore anyway. Butcher paper lasts forever and is cheap, flat and in rolls of long lengths.
3dtwerking324, your bring up some really interesting ideas my friend. I appreciate your thoughts and insight on the vacuum system brother and trying out the butcher paper.
Wow! I had no idea MDF was that porous. We have a vacuum CNC router from Forest Scientific that hasn't worked for years, so I'm told. I have asked if I can take it on as a project to get it working, vacuum system an all. The materials you got from All-Star CNC sounds exactly what we'll need to get this thing working. Thanks for the demo and the info! BTW, that Beast is one hell of a bit. Impressive. Probably a little too much for my small projects. Thanks again!
ronjamison4346, glad to help brother! It sounds like it may be an excellent fit for you and your machine. Happy cutting!
Geez! The beast definitely lives up to it's name.
Angie, it's awesome! I'm looking forward to you giving it a try for yourself!
Good work Nice
Holy crap. That’s a nice machine
sfg18b, thanks brother! It's the new toy in the shop!
I have seen people have good results by covering a zone with a page (or pages) from a newspaper and then placing their stock on the paper
Tom, great suggestion! I've been hearing that from a few of our CNC brothers and sisters too. Thanks for the tip, I appreciate it my friend!
I like the music. I dont have a vac table but have seen others use newspaper. Just add a sheet on top of the mdf. Put wood on it. Somehow It seems to greatly improve the vacuum. Spoil board damage can be reduced by setting the bit to the top of the spoilboard. Then set your programed cut to negative numbers.
mike, thanks for the feedback brother! That's a great idea with adding a sheet on top of the mdf. Thanks for the tip!
Great information, Thanks! I just purchased an “Airweights” 24”x24” vacuum table for my Laguna iq 2x3, They have the pads for about $5 cheaper than all star. Also, what were makers using to get their vacuum tables to work prior? After all my research on vacuum tables your video was news to me, especially the side sealing.
mpakirk, I'm glad it was helpful brother! Your vacuum table sounds awesome and I'm looking forward to hearing what you think when you get it all set up on your Laguna! Happy cncing brother!
Test the beast on the Long Mill. Lot of us have desktop CNC machines.
Larry, I've been playing around with it on my longmill too and it's been cutting excellent. I'll definitely get around to showing you!
I liked the music, I think the whistling is my favorite. I loved how informative and detailed the whole thing was (thanks for enduring the dust!). I have a suggestion about the seal on the vac board. Instead of a simple butt joint how about a sort of half dovetail, vertical cut? That would allow for some longitudinal movement with less compromising of the seal.
SRBrown9032, I'm glad you liked the music brother thanks for letting me know! Also that's a great suggestion for the board my friend, thanks!
@@IDCWoodcraft You're welcome, my pleasure. I learned machine shop basics way back when I was starting my experimental physics career as a junior physicist who made some pieces of the experiment and designed other pieces for the shop to make. I'm retired now, but I've started learning about CNC as sort of a favor for a friend and am enjoying the journey. Good luck with the "beast", I think it's a winner.
Great Video, Dig the tunes!
The only thing I didn't catch was the spindle rpm, was it the same rpm for each test?
Sammorris, it was the same for each test brother!
Excellent demonstration! I have been using the ALL STAR gasket and mat for 6 months. Very impressed. For smaller parts I add strips around the piece to decrease any linkage from exposed mat. Really helps.
Barry, thanks for the tips brother. I'm glad your gasket has been treating you well so far!
Hello, thanks for the tip!
What if i will mill the spoil surface from the beginning, with holes like the board you tape it on the spoil surface?
I guess that will work!
What do you think?
I am new in cnc and i just brought one. I have to install a spoil surface for the first time.
How deep i have to mill the surface with the milling cutter for gliding.
Thank you!
981byby, I recommend taking a look at this video here my friend: th-cam.com/video/dbxtLQY26Cw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=x7t1jiTo9jt8Zk3O. I think you'll find it super helpful in getting your spoilboard set up!
I wounder if it would be possible to make a vacuum systeme using such mate and the mk-2 router ? I think it could work ! Great video Garrett !
Louis, that could work brother!
I prefer the ambient sounds, sped up to match the time lapse, to music.
rick2388, thanks for the feedback brother. I appreciate you sharing your perspective.
Wow that 1 inch pass is sick !! nice bit !!
Also the music is nice, and not too loud ! so, i think you can continu with that haha.
I was wondering, does the vacuum system use a lot of electricity ? i'm always a bit afraid for that, as the machines already use a lot of it the runnig cost with increase maybe ?
enniebbennie, so glad you liked this one brother! The vacuum system does use a good amount of energy but if you are in a production shop, it is well worth it!
Nice addition with the All-Star pads. The only problem I see is you won't be doing any through profile cuts.
Thanks for the thought. I brought that up as well. They lead me to a creator that uses it with cutout a lot. I don't remember the person offhand but It's all in the settings and they use it on cutout a lot
Our Tile Gaskets are engineered to be cut into and consumed over time. But precision in Z depth control is key in determining longevity. We have many clients using the same set of Tile Gaskets for 300, 400, or more production hours. The Tile Gasket becomes the new spoil surface, and as they are consumed and need to be changed, simply fly cut off and reapply. No need to change the spoilboard.
Garrett, is there a discount code for All-Star CNC products for Vacuum CNC Router tables? Thanks.
Sorry, all star does not too discounts.
I don't mind the music.... As long as it is at the same volume level. I really dislike videos that I have turn the volume up/down/up/down all the way through. Your level is just fine.
Laser31415, thanks for the input on the music brother. It's something new I've been playing around with. I couldn't agree with you more about having to adjust the volume all the time, it gets really frustrating!
What would happen if you covered the spoil board with plastic sheet and cut an opening around the project piece? I would assume that reduce or almost eliminate the suction loss.
Flycaptaindave, thanks for the idea brother I hadn't thought of that one!
Very informative, thank you. Music wasnt too bad, could have been worse, you could have been singing along with it :)
misfiregamecalls9054, fair point my friend! LOL
nice bit can i use this BEAST on my longmillcnc, if yes how fast can i run it and how deep per pass
dwaynejohnson7499, absolutely brother! We'll be running it at 100 inches per minute at 2200 rpm
Hi. What the difference between Venturi valve to convert compressed air and a real vacuum pump with tank???
Venturi valve uses a main source flowing air steam to pull in more air from one out more side inlets.
Vacuum is a direct air removal.
Vacuum is much more effective since it is 100% air removal from a specified source.
Venturi side air removal sources can be restricted which will make suction much less effective
Hi Cnc Brother, do you use multiple camera's? Some images are super clear and some others are a bit grainy
3Dpixelbe, I do on occasion but typically the grainy videos are my own user error! Thanks for letting me know my friend!
Good work Nice
We use only a 4mm thick MDF on the vacuum table, very strong vacuum. Busellato EASY JET CNC.
Zeix, good call brother! That will work great too.
could this mat be used when doing straight through cuts? WOuld it mess up the mat?
Dwayne, I would advise against doing through cuts on this one brother!
What else can someone say but, WOW! That bit is mean and nasty, nasty in a great way. That vac mat is quite awesome given the speed and depth of that bit. That mat being rubber has a certain friction and self grab I would say. The wood on the mdf may not have been 100% flat maybe, plus I'm thinking that even though the mdf if is porous it is baby butt smooth as is the work piece I would think, so small amount of Friction maybe be to blame? Anyways this video showed what the right tools and accessories can do. Thank you for sharing this info with us. The only sad thing was turning that. maple into wood chips and dust. By the way the whistling music is great, makes me lye back and relax. Izzy Swan used that piece through one of his earlier videos and just let it play softly in the background...so great choice. Now bring on the beast. Please.😅
I like the idea of the vacuum mat. What do you do if you want to cut all the way through your piece? as far as the music goes, I would rather not have it or have it about 1/4 of the volume. Just my opinion very impressed and the beast. Keep up the good work.
Andrew, thanks brother I'm glad you enjoyed it! I definitely agree with you about the mat, I appreciate the input. And I'm glad you enjoyed the music selection on this one my friend. Happy cutting!
I'm guessing the Maple was sufaced flat prior to placing on the spoilboard and matt?
Lee, you bring up a great idea here my friend. I didn't have it surfaced flat prior to cutting. Definitely something to consider here, thanks!
What’s the spindle you have and what rpm is that running at??
thomasjohnson6411, that is the spindle provided on the Phantom CNC brother! As for feeds and speeds, I do have the IDC woodcraft app that has all the feeds and speeds for every IDC Woodcraft bit right on your phone. Give it a shot
IDC Woodcraft CNC Router Bit App Links
Apple → apple.co/3IKj9Td
Android → bit.ly/3kmFCfN
Hi
I’m very new to CNC
I need to cut my laboratory table to using CNC
THE top material is Phenolic Resins
It is very hard material
I need to size my tops from the original sheet. (10*5ft is the size of original sheet)
What will be the best bit for this project
What will be the feed rate and RMP
What should be the cutting depth per one cut
Phenolic resin is tricky brother and really dangerous to cut for your health if it gets in your lungs. I really cant recommend it my friend.
These are great for hobbiest but we tried the mats at our ahop and the instalation was a nightmare once it does wear out. Cleanjng the board was a pain and as much as we cut we had to change it alot.
theexpressionbooth, sorry to hear these gave you troubles brother and thanks for sharing your perspective.
Ciao, possiamo sapere quale sia la vacuum pomp da te utilizzata?
alessiong,
No estoy muy seguro hermano. Viene con el Phantom CNC. Aquí hay un enlace a uno que funcionaría: i2rcnc.com/products/2-2kw-vacuum-pump-solution?variant=40857641418805
You need to cover the holes that you are not using. That will increase the vacuum pull and seal it.
Phil, that's a great idea brother, thanks for sharing!
Music is fine!
Headdancer1, thanks for letting me know! It's something I've been playing around with so I appreciate the insight!
is there a diy version vacuum table?
Hillwires, I haven't found one as of yet! I recommend making a post on the CNC Entrepreneurs Facebook page here →facebook.com/groups/cncentrepreneurs. There's a ton of really helpful CNC brothers and sisters on there that will probably have some great tips for you!
Simple dollar store contact paper laid on the bed around your work piece would stop 99% leakage, and will peel right back off when done with no damage to the spoil board. Cheap and easy
freedomforever9166, that will absolutely work my friend! Thanks for the tip! There's lots of ways to secure your projects. I always recommend trying a few different ways out and using the one that works best for you and your project at hand.
Music is fine
mike, thanks for letting me know brother!
Music is fine.
Armyff1, thanks for letting me know brother. Definitely something new I was trying out!
Couldn’t we just use standard peg board instead of a mat? Maybe you’d have to paint it but peg board is cheap.
Alphies2005, you certainly could my friend! It's more of a preference!
no music
Sam, thanks for letting me know brother!
music was ok
Joe, thanks for letting me know brother! Happy cutting!
Screws? Really?
I've have been running a 4x8 machine for over twenty years and have never used screws. Besides the chance of hitting one and destroying a cutter is too great in my opinion.
I don't know of any professional shop using that technique.
Using Trupan or other Low Desity Fiber Board is an even better alternative to MDF. It is made from Radiata pine. Longer strands, more porus, and 30% lighter.
Thanks for your work.
Lindsey, all very fair points my friend! Thanks for sharing your perspective and insights brother!
Just use butcher paper. cover your zone with butcher paper, wax side down. Cut out the paper the size of your work piece and your golden.
magicman9486, That's a great suggestion! Butcher paper can be a good option for protecting the surface when working with wood. Just make sure it's securely in place to prevent any shifting during the cutting process. Happy woodworking!
Keep the music.
Dave, thanks for the feedback brother!
@@IDCWoodcraft do you know of a vacuum system that would work for the Longmill?
The All Star Tile Gasketing product makes me excited but really sad at the same time because I do not have a CNC vacuum table ☹. I would love to see video ideas/options for removable vacuum tables for industrial and bench top CNC machines.
@ALLSTARCNCPRODUCTS - I have a product suggestion. I use a maker space community Laguna 4x8 without a vacuum table. Unfortunately, the corporate non-CNCers mudblood directors which make the rules for operating the machine and get upset when the table bed gets carved up. A great All Star side product would be selling the mats without holes too. This would allow us apply the mat onto a virgin bed which has t-slots and then replace the mats when they get carved up too much. It would be much easier to replace the mats verses replacing 1” think MDF boards (which I’m still trying to find a vendor).
Dion, I get what you mean brother. The vacuum table is awesome! I'm hoping they'll also be able to help get you something that will work well with your Laguna brother!
omg… really?
get yourself a roll of masking paper in Home Depot.
cut to size of a vacuum area(s). then cut to the shape of a workpiece. (leaving 1/2” on the edges).
Untiground, thanks for the ideas brother I hadn't thought of that!
Good work Nice