Polyvagal theory & nervous system safety for dizziness & pain recovery: interview w/ Tanner Murtagh
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ค. 2024
- I am so pleased to welcome Tanner Murtagh, MSW, RSW to my channel to give us a crash course on polyvagal theory and nervous system safety. Tanner is the director of Pain Psychotherapy Canada and specializes in helping people recover from chronic physical symptoms like pain, dizziness, fatigue, digestive issues and more. In this interview, we dive into why "messages of safety" are such a common refrain in healing from chronic neural circuit disorders. Even more importantly, we discuss why so many of you don't believe yourselves when you try to tell yourself you're safe. Tanner gives us a breakdown of how to start noticing and shifting your nervous system states, an essential component of healing from chronic dizziness.
Learn more about Tanner and find out more information on polyvagal theory, calming your nervous system and more tools for chronic pain, dizziness and other symptoms on his TH-cam channel, @painpsychotherapy
You can also visit Tanner's practice's website: www.painpsychotherapy.ca
Learn more about me and my work on my website at thesteadycoach.com
Take my course, Healing Chronic Dizziness, entirely for free at thesteadycoach.com/free-course
00:00:00 Intro and about Tanner
00:03:49 The types of symptoms & diagnoses Tanner sees in his work
00:07:07 The more symptoms you have, the more likely it is that it's a neural circuit issue
00:09:17 Why fear of the symptoms and avoidance doesn't fully explain chronic symptoms
00:11:01 Story follows nervous system state
00:15:00 Why you don't believe yourself when you say "I'm safe"
00:19:40 A nervous system that is "dysregulated" means a nervous system that isn't flexible!
00:22:50 We are NOT meant to always be calm
00:24:00 How an inflexible nervous system causes physical symptoms
00:28:00 Polyvagal theory and neuroception
00:31:43 The three subsystems in your autonomic (automatic) nervous system
00:34:45 How our lifestyles and strategies like perfectionism affect our nervous systems
00:40:52 People are not always aware of their nervous systems states
00:48:17 How to start - build awareness of your nervous system states
00:52:48 Building resources to shift from state to state
00:54:37 Ventral-vagal anchors
01:01:13 What if you never feel safe?
01:06:27 Why people sometimes feel more anxiety and activation when recovering
01:10:40 What a daily routine looks like and what to expect with symptoms
01:15:15 How this ties in with emotional awareness and expression
01:19:24 Message of hope for people with dizziness using these methods
DISCLAIMER: Please note that Yonit Arthur, The Steady Coach and any of our other guests are not acting as an audiologist nor offering audiology or medical services services or advice on any public videos or on any other content. This channel provides wellness education and personal opinion only, and are not meant to be a substitute for medical or mental health instruction or intervention. Use any tools discussed at your own risk. - บันเทิง
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One word: AWESOME!!! And I love the calm, clear voice of Tanner.
This was great! I’m coming out of 9 months of constant dizziness after having post-covid vestibular neuritis. I’ve noticed as I have started to recover, the anxiety and panic has increased. This was so counterintuitive to me before watching this discussion. I have, however, noticed this starting to be less frequent. I thought my life was essentially over earlier this year. There is hope!
Thank you for writing this comment! I also have this from Covid and have had it for a year now 24/7 dizziness, and loss of quality of life. It’s hopeful you are coming out of it! What helped you the most?
Same boat! Chronic dizziness since having covid in September 2022. It's been almost a year and I'm doing so much better! I've even had many symptom free days now. Keep calm and know that this will pass. A year ago I thought my life was over, now I'm back to living life normally with some small irritating symptoms. Month 9 and 10 is where I started noticing major progress
@@shandymonte I started noticing the most improvement after forcing myself to do activities that were dizziness provoking. I would remind myself during these experiences that any bad symptom that I was feeling was simply a false alarm (even though it definitely didn’t feel like it). After a while I started noticing that the dizziness would start to subside. I tend to hyper-focus on everything, and I think I was hyper-focusing on my symptoms and constantly trying to find a cure for too long. Easier said than done, but it does get better! Some things are still a little difficult, like super busy environments (particularly indoors under fluorescent lighting), but it gets better all the time.
Trey, fabulous to hear this interview put the puzzle together a bit more for you! So pleased to hear about your progress. There IS hope.
Somewhat relieved to see these few posts from others who had post covid dizziness/pppd. Did you do Dr. Yo's course? I've had this for just over 5 months now and have watched so many videos on every post covid related topic in addition to acupuncture. Didn't forcing yourself to provoke dizziness bring on PEM and then perhaps a setback?
Fannnnnntastic!!!! Was better for me than many of the other interviews. This is the exact kind of information my mind has needed to hear. Thanks SO much for the large variety of professionals you interview for all of us.
You're very welcome, Jill! I am so glad that you found this interview at the right time!
Two of my favourites!
Thank you for the video, Yonit. So nice to see your channel growing. The wobly folks are in good hands 😀
PHIL! You are one of my OGs. Just wait til you see some of the next interviews I have lined up!
Tanner I just found a Qi Gong class near me a couple of weeks ago and it’s amazing I love it!!! I’m so thankful to find something I really like
This is an awesome interview. It explains so much of what I've been doing and dealing with for even longer than the 9+ years that I've been dealing specifically with the dizziness. Great information.
What a great podcast (and an awesome resource this channel is!). He really explained the Polyvagal theory very well, and makes total sense in relation to PPPD.
This really rang true to my experience, as "now" I'm aware of that moment my system became dis-regulated back in July/Aug of 2022, and what my system was probably doing. I had a minor shoulder injury (and was also a bit stressed personally at the time), and got crazy anxious after injury/couldn't figure out why it was still hurting after a week, etc. That manifested into a panic attacks, spinning vertigo (first time ever), lots of tests (MRI, VNG, carotid scan, etc), feeling fully on dizziness...then finally getting diagnosed with PPPD by an ophthalmologist in Nov 2022. My stress bucked was packed FULL and overflowed, evidently.
I'm still not out of the woods with PPPD, but I do have my "good days in Ventral Vegal", and I'll take them. It's this channel, and videos like this, that really have helped me understand what I've been dealing with and continue to deal with, how to cope with them, and know that I'm not broken and am safe. I just keep doing the work...even with occasional setbacks, I'm still progressing. Thank you!
Think visualizing a safe place is helpful and i also think taking action when necessary is vital when in a constant survival state. This is so challenging as for me, it means leaving a 20 year marriage. This is my only option, this is slowly killing me from the onside out every single day. Im holding on to the beauty i see on the other side of this pain. The dizziness is debilitating and i must take action.
I am so, so sorry for what you are going through. It sounds like you know in your heart what this is about. Your body is speaking to you.
2 of my favorite people!!
Awww Jackie :
The Way Out (book) really helps simplify all of this. Thanks for recommending. All these sensations are safe. No need to get rid of them!
It's a great book, thank you for mentioning it!
Omg this is the greatest message I have ever heard thank you MrTanner and thank to you most of all
So glad it was helpful, Judy!
Omg! I burst out into laughter when he said “I’m an angry cleaner” SAME!!!!!! Every time I would get angry I would start to aggressively clean my house. Wow. I just figured it was a good way of getting the anger out.
I’ve been using polyvagal theory and regulating my nervous system for MONTHS now. Although I’ve made some improvements I’m still very symptomatic and limited in my daily life. What could I be missing? I wish I could solve this puzzle already! It’s been a year and I definitely want to get back to my life!
This usually means the underlying stressors and traumas have not been addressed. The nervous system will keep flipping back into danger mode in those cases.
1:23:47 @@TheSteadyCoach
Me as well. I thought I was the only one.
I had so many breakthroughs watching this video- the most valuable one I have watched this past year! Thank you!
Wow, thank you so much for saying that! I'm so glad it helped.
Thank you ! I follow both channels and appreciate the work you do.❤
Wonderful, so glad to have you here!
Thank you so very much. I am so glad I found your channel. God bless you❤
You are so welcome!
Great video. I always love the new videos and different ways of explaining it. I do tend to re watch my favourite ones though especially when i have to go out i keep an ear pod in trying to just remind myself i can do it and not to react to much 😊 recently had about 2 days of feeling relatively no dizziness apart from here and there when i snapped myself out of it by just thinkig "nope" today in a set back though as been feeling very depersonalised and dizzy again but onwards and upwards! ❤
Correct! Keep going! Ups and downs are a completely normal part of recovery and even a good sign that you are healing!
I look forward to your videos every week! Another excellent discussion which I connected with so much! Thanks to both of you 😊
Aww, you're very welcome, Rachel!
Really interesting, puts everything into simple terms, especially 3 steps in nervous system
Love this, thankyou guys❤
So thankful for you both! Great interview with very helpful information.
I'm glad it helped, Michelle!
Wow this was amazing for me to listen to. I feel like it's another piece of the puzzle for my healing I have been needing. The emotions it brought to my attention were ones I have been needing to experience that I didn't realize were there. So much love and thanks to both of you ❤ -Sarah
You got it, Sarah. I am so happy this connected some dots for you.
Thank you both so much. Now I really get it.
I'm so glad this helped.
This interview is amazing thank you both !!!!
You're very welcome, Renee!
I've been following your channel for quite some time now, and your tips have helped me A WHOLE LOT. I'm Israel from Brazil, and in January this year, I hit my head, and I started having headaches afterward (they were not intense, though... mostly mild) and a bit of dizziness. But since I didn't know what I had and everytime I went to the doctor they kept sending me home, I went through this major anxiety and had panic attacks. I went to the ear doctor and was diagnosed with vestibular hypofunction (the left side was working differently than the right side) I began VR exercises at home, which helped me quite a bit to gain confidence with head movements... but at the same time I became too dependent on them... which makes me believe that that involved into a PPPD. I mean, I was not diagnosed with that because it's hard to find a specialist (if not impossible) in vestibular problems in my area. But from what I've seen you describe in your videos, everything started to fall into place. The moment I realized I was on fight or flight response with my balance the whole time, things started to change for the better. I started going to environments that would worsen my symptoms so I could lose my fear of feeling dizziness. And every day I feel like I'm getting better and better. Oh and I forgot to mention I finally let go of the VR exercises, and that was the best thing to do. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us!!!
Fantastic, Israel! I am so happy for the progress you have made!!
Thank you once again , such great information!
You're very welcome, Denise! ❤
Fantastic
This is a fabulous!!!
Awesome,thanks
Thank you!!
❤ thank you. I’m currently having trouble getting out of fight or flight with my dizziness. 😢
Same here😢 I hope you are well!
It is so tough, but you can do it in time.
💯change your thoughts and move them muscles and remove the thought of danger ! Repetition cures ! Keep working at what they are taking about it cured me !
Love tanner❤
I'm so glad i have found your channel! I haven't been diagnosed with PPPD but i am pretty sure its what i am suffering with. I had it around 7/8 years ago for a few months... doctors had no clue and i was stuck in bed for a few months it was so bad... i coulden't even sleep as the room felt like it was moving with my eyes closed.. i did get better but tonight it has come back. I am so worried as i really struggled to even get out of bed last time but this time i have a 1 year old son i need to tend too.. i am going to continue to watch your videos and prey i get better soon. Does this effect sleep normally? So sorry for the long message and thank you so much for all the help you are giving 💜
Many thanks Lisa x
Hi Lisa, I am sorry you're going through all this! Take heart, I've seen other moms of young kids like you get better very quickly. Please consider taking the course, it organizes the information. It is 100% free. thesteadycoach.com/free-course and yes insomnia is very common and I have a video about it.
@@TheSteadyCoach Thank you so much for your reply. Will definitely look at this course. Big hugs x
Now I understand why my symptoms can get better if I have a hot shower or go for a walk.
Exactly!!
Dear Dr Yonit. Great interview. Always thought how am i supposed to feel safe & make my brain believe that i am.safe when it feels like this. But now i understand i can also work on the way up! Doing all kind of safe & nice feeling things as much as i can to make my body get more & more out of the constant danger state! Even if symptoms did not leave yet😊
So anyway that is a good insight.
I do have 1 question!!!
It struck me that so many comments are from people (not only here but also om fb groups, which i stop looking at), that say they are doing all the right stuff, have or had no stress, or feel no anxiety anymore, and just keep stuck and write about years and years of still having symptoms.
I know you have a video about why people are stuck. But a lot of people seem to have tried it all and still dont recover from some or all sensations. Is it possible that, even if they do really ALL that is right , they just are not able to recover?
Or...are they missing something and are just not aware if what they are doing wrong? Thinking they are doing everything right but just are not and are not aware of it... I am so curious!!!!!! It is the BIG thing that is now, actually keeping ME stuck😅.
I have read to much negative stories in the beginning of my Journey. And even now, when i read a comment like after this video someone is saying i did eveything right and have no stress etc than it gives me a bit of doubt...
Many people are doing this! Writing all these negative stories and how long ...its so not helpfull when you read these. I understand why they do this but still....it makes me really really wonder...
In your experience with cliënts...would you say everybody CAN actually heal? (when having no medical issue). Or..are those people exceptions? Like they actually are NOT able to heal...i just can not believe that😅 love your opinion...
Keep in mind, Arianne, that the people still here looking for answers or writing down stories are the people who are not fully better. The many people who are fully better mostly leave and don't comment.
Yes...that is ofcourse True...thank you🥰😊
Activation in my system is almost worse than the pppd/vm stuff - it came with it at 2am in the morning waking me up. I was in dorsal before this but not now. I do feel there is buried anger and grief since there is cpstd as well. I really appreciate you talking about the dizzy is activating in and of itself. I have seen a lot of people with chronic illness and use dnrs/gupta and other programs and mostly they tend to be in dorsal (pain/cfs)....so it made it hard to relate being sympathetic/activated ...interesting.
The dizziness really does compound the awfulness. It makes it really easy to get into a vicious cycle.
This was such a good interview with a lot of substance. Tanner referred to someone's work a number of times but I couldn't catch the name - Dana???? I'd be grateful if you could let me know who it was as I'd like to explore further. Thank you 😊
Deb Dana! :)
I am so SOOOOO glad to have found you! You are a total blessing. I am just getting started on this journey and am wondering if it is possible to set a time for an appointment. I have questions.... If this is possible, how do we share contact info without divulging it to the world.
Hi! You can find the services I offer and contact my office through my website thesteadycoach.com/free-course/
Can you have visual symptoms that are like the floater squiggly lines associated with chronic dizziness?
Yes definitely
So notice when you feel good or even a bit calmer.
Yes! And see what factors were helping you feel this way.
Dear Dr Yo,
Thank you for your interesting videos ! 😍
I wanted to ask you something. I know a woman who is suffering from Mdds since 3-4 years and she tries/tried a lot of things you proposed but never recovered until now…
Is it possible that some people sometimes never recover ? ☹️
Hi there! Welcome to my channel! There are lots of neuroplasticity approaches out there but there are some important differences between them. Many approaches advocate changing reactions to symptoms, practicing being still, etc., but many do not help people resolve stress, emotional distress and trauma. On the surface, these would not seem to be related to the symptoms so they are not being addressed. I think the research is going in the direction of showing that some people with mindbody disorders truly need intensive emotional work that in some cases cannot be done on their own. As a person who is trained in helping people with these disorders and has tons of knowledge about these concepts, I still have to work with my own therapist from time to time.
@thesteadycoach I only feel dizziness after the morning. It seems like in the morning I’m totally fine and then it creeps in. At night it resolves again. Any thoughts on why it seems to be on a schedule?
Thank you for this .
There is still missing bits for me
I have studied the nervous system , polyvagal theory, neuroscience etc. Also I accept I have this condition.
HOWEVER I cannot get better. It’s been 24 years and I appear treatment resistant. Not completely but can’t get to a functional recovery.
##DrYo any help here would be fabulous . Thank you
I am sorry you are going through this. Please check out my free course if you haven't already thesteadycoach.com/free-course.
Dr Yonit, i was wondering, is the pppd comparable with tinnitus? The way you get it amd than when it stays more and more when people are scared and more focussed about it? I dont have it but...i have had a few times that i could hear the sound. I did not do anything about it. But some people get stuck for a long time... is that the same idea?
Definitely the same, though IMO tinnitus tends to be a bit less complicated because it doesn't involve so many sensory systems.
Just discovered this channel. So far I've see a lot about dizziness but nothing yet about nausea. Nausea is my predominant symptom. Is that a something that can be experienced with this? Also, sensitivity to scents?
Oh I am so sorry, nausea is awful. Yes absolutely and sensitivity to smells as well. Vanessa talks about that in her recovery video.
Hey @the steady coach I have noticed in several
If the interviews I’ve watched that you focus a lot on the fear of the symptoms. But my symptoms came because of fear, anxiety and all those temperament things Christy Uibi talked about. So how do we deal with the fear and anxiety, self criticism etc that started the symptoms in the first place?
GREAT question, stay tuned, I have two interviews lined up that will directly address this! In the meantime, this video th-cam.com/video/OBdGPIlznAE/w-d-xo.html and this one th-cam.com/video/9MWKH8XOoC8/w-d-xo.html are going to be helpful :)
hello coach , when I do sport after 5.10 minutes I feel dizzy do you know what that comes from? I also have them when I walk, sorry for my English I'm French
This explains! th-cam.com/video/Jkp49oB3-CQ/w-d-xo.html
Randon message i know but I've been to the doctor's today about my anxiety and all it brings..they wasn't concerned with the headaches/dizziness and basically said I don't need an mri which I will now not push for one as they wasn't concerned so.. just think sometimes if I mention my "anxiety" they listen less because of my many symptoms that also link into anxiety. They have requested a scan on my neck though as I have a larger thyroid (they can't blame anxiety cuz you can physically see it) 🤦♀️
I am so sorry about this. I know people get completely dismissed when providers think it's "anxiety."
Thank you ❤ but I understand why they do it so much
How do you build sense of safety when your dizzy 24/7 and even when your not anxious you still feel extreme symptoms
This might help th-cam.com/video/pTEfRdAZLZ4/w-d-xo.html
My name is john one day iam shopping mall in standing feel like swaying sensation and that time suddenly panic attack after daily fearful days cause swaying feeling what is it pls tell
Hi John, you may be interested in this video as I go into more detail on if your dizziness is neural circuit dizziness th-cam.com/video/rtwNNaw7dqA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=TdoP8x7O8t4PSgTt
polyvagal theory seems to say that we need to move through our stored stress responses in order to reach ventral - up through the polyvagal ladder. But it also says that we can't properly process our stress responses, moving up through sympathetic, unless we're grounded in ventral. I find it completely paradoxical, and it's sent my brain into a complete spin. No one else seems to see the contradiction at the heart of this, so I must be missing something. Anyone else struggle with this?
I thought learning more would empower me and set me on the right track, but it's made me way worse. I feel like the kid in class surrounded by nodding heads, and I just don't understand at all.
Take heart. It is only one way to think about it. I find it much easier to conceptualize the stress bucket. When your bucket is full, your body goes into fight flight. When your bucket overflows, you go into freeze. Goal: get stuff out of your bucket, and make your bucket bigger. Get stuff out by feeling feelings, self-compassion, addressing fear of symptoms. Make your bucket bigger by connecting to others, doing joyful activities, getting exercise, etc. I hope that helps
@@TheSteadyCoach Thanks for your response. This does make more sense to me.
I just can't quite figure out what I'm missing with PVT. I'd love to have a more comprehensive model - it's just the way I am. I feel very unsteady if I don't understand something which is important to me. Chronic pain and trauma therapists speak so highly of PVT, but it seems to suggests that we have to work through our stored traumas before we're even able to connect with others and ground ourselves in ventral. It's very disorientating.
I'm probably misunderstanding the concept of the polyvagal ladder. When i hear 'you need to move through sympathetic to move up to ventral', I hear 'you need to process the trauma which put you into freeze, before you can shift up the ladder,' Maybe this isn't the case at all!
Anyway. I'm hoping this stuff will all click at some point. I've got enough puzzle pieces now; just trying to fir them all together. Thanks again.
Your comment makes total sense. English is not my dominant language, so I'll try my best to explain (at least from what I understand about the theoretical aspect of this work). Deb Dana talks about this in her books in more detail.
There are blended states (two states can co-exist). So you can be in an activated state such as "flight or fight" but also have some "ventral energy" going on simultaneously. Think about an activity such as dancing for example. It's an activated state, cuz you're obviously using your body but at the same time (granted you enjoy dancing & genuinely feel safe doing so) there is probably some ventral energy going on at the same time (music, feel good hormones beeing released, movement, maybe connecting to other people while dancing or even just the connection to the vibrations of the music and so forth).
The freeze response is a great example of a blended state. Freeze is a state of both, sympathetic & parasympathetic energy at the same time. Think of a deer in headlights. Its nervous system is highly activated yet the animal body isn't moving at all. Fear "fight or flight state" meets paralysis "shutdown state".
Deb Dana beautifully describes that in her book "Anchored". You can meet the fight & flight energy with some ventral energy to make the fight & flight energy more bearable and a "safe experience" for you to navigate. So it's not always about the one OR the other. It's often also about the one AND the other. Two states can coexist.
The same goes for symptoms. Yes, there might be a part in your body that manifests symptoms but if you "look" closely it's not your whole body. What about your hands, feet, earlobes, nose etc. Do they experience pain or symptoms? Most probably not. So this is already showing that one can have multiple sensations/ experiences simultaneously in different parts of the body.
In somatic experiencing for example, we invite "glimpses" of safety to make certain experiences/ emotions more bearable. Even though there is this challenging emotion/ experience, I can invite some ventral energy into the moment, to teach my nervous system that what I'm experiencing right now is uncomfortable, but certainly not dangerous. We invite anchores. We connect to "small" moments and doses of ventral/ safe energy to slowly teach the body to cone out of survival states.
For me personally, this took away the TREMENDOUS amount of pressure of "having to" regulate my nervous system all the time. I can be in fight or flight. Instead of forcing my system to calm down, how about inviting some ventral energy into the fight and flight response? How about those two states meet each other so that the activated state is more bearable. This, over time, will create more capacity to be with certain experiences, instead of needing or wanting to be calm all the time.
I hope this made sense❤️
Also we invite "ventral/ safe energy" to traumatic processing to avoid retraumatisation. To goal of trauma therapy (at least somatic experiencing) is NEVER to push through emotions, sensations, images and so forth or to push ourselves to process stuff. The first goal is to meet those traumatised parts of us with safety so they can unravel themselves and we are the safe container for them. Meeting those parts with safe energy avoids overwhelm and retraumatisation of the entire system.