With regard to MICC or Pyro cable, a 2 core of approximately 6 or 7 mm diameter, starts off as two thick wires surrounded by insulation mineral, and fat copper strip. The copper strip is about 75 mm wide, it is rolled into a cylinder, then the seam is welded, then it is reduced in diameter, compressing the mineral, and drawing the fire/sheath. This method allows several hundreds of metres of final length to be produced. I worked at company who manufactured the rolling stands, and the end user was not disclosed, this was in the early 1990's, and allegedly was in a response to having continuous cable for control systems on Navy ships, ref Loss of systems suffered during Falklands war. Obviously multiple cores in this alleged application. Great work John.
could you tell me what type of material or ( glue) used to seal the tubular heating element at the both ends, please? as I am working to produce one but I don't know what kind of material can be used to close the both ends
Hi, i have a problem that maybe you can help me with, i have modified a pizza elettric oven that has 2 heating element, one under the coking plate and one above it (both of them are 600watt), i have removed the bottom one and placed on top together with the other one, for a total of 1200watt above the plate, i reach 430 degrees celsius on the coking plate for coking pizza, but the problem is that after the coking i have found metal particles on the coking plate (a lot of them like a powder) and i have used a magnet for picking up this particles, now the oven is made from stainless steel aisi 300 series and its not magnetic and it has no visible sings of corrosion, i think that the metal particles come from the heating elements (the magnet do not stick to them too so probably also aisi 300 series), and also this wasnt happening before i placed the bottom heating element above together with the other one, do you know what is goin on? the heating element are in apparently good shape i dont see any visible signs of corrosion or rust on them, one thing to mention is that the heating elements touch eachother (for a reason of tight space available in the oven) so maybe when they heat up and expand and then cool down and reverse there is friction between them, or maybe is beacuse they heat up to much (the glowing color bytheway is red not orange or yellow). Do you know what those metal particles can be? Thanks
How can I remove the magnesium oxide from the copper tubes. Some came out when i pulled the wire out but not all of it.. I was told distilled water or hydrochloric acid
We had a shower that started to trip the RCD, inside the boiler unit was a pair of elements of similar construction to that. One of them actually had a crack in it.
I bough a cheap kettle from Tesco when I bought my house so I can make a brew while doing work before I moved in, worked fine with no issue, then I have my old fuse box replaced with a modern consumer unit and it kept tripping the RCD when I turned on the kettle. This explains why
I don't know why, I expected the actual heating part (fillament) to be much bigger. Is this typical filament size for the thickness of the outer metal bars?
Colin Richardson I was expecting it to be a solid non wound resistive wire, I also imagined the insulating material to be a plaster of Paris type material.
I wonder how they keep the thin internal wire from making contact with the outer metal tubing? I can't imagine the powder doing a very good job of keeping the element in place, let alone around all the curves and bends they often put in them.
The powder is packed in so tight it can't move. As John mentioned there is a type of cable that uses the same principle, it's known as MICC, Mineral Insulated Copper Clad. Old school electricians talk about Pyro which is the same as calling any vacuume cleaner a 'hoover'. When I was an apprentice way back in the 1970's our instructor demonstrated it's versatility and hence why it's used by smashing it almost flat with a hammer. It still worked and passed the electrical tests.
So you already knew that after watching your Class I II III video, we will look further for workign of Class I with plastic covers (electric kettle as in your example). Thanks for the video.
From the video, this is a poor quality heating element because the MgO is too loose,the loose MgO can make the wire unable to separate from the air and cause oxidation
Thank you man i found the problem thanks to you... My geyser is turning the breaker not the short circuit breaker but the other 1! So I tested the element against the tank of the boiler for OHMs and it should be infinit right? I got 10k and rising so it must be water then because its rising right? So i order new heating element...
Recently carried out an EICR on a MICC installation I did 5 years ago, all circuits greater than 1000 M Ohm. Its only poor potting (sealing) that normally causes low insulation readings!
Many moons ago I worked for the old LEB (London Electricity Board) and we had the maintenance contract with most London councils for the public loos. I'm going way way back as you tell. They were staffed by attendants who looked after them immaculately; all the porcelain gleamed, the tiles were wiped down regularly, floor mopped constantly. They also lovingly polished all the copper work, both water pipes and the 'pyro' till it shone. We routinely had to replace sections where they had 'polished' through the wall.
I remember using a bandsaw for caaual freehand cuts in some PCB laminate at my old place of f work to show a work experience kid, and him almost being physically sick, convinced I was about to lose at least one finger ..
Hey john this isn’t related to the video. However I gotta ask, what is you’re opinion on Article 13? Would it kill both mine and you’re TH-cam channel? I think the white powder is certainly illegal drugs. 🤔
1:42 - I couldn’t hear him clearly but what did he say that white powder material was that got out of the inside of the heating coil element? Did he say magnesium oxide?
You'd think so, but then again it's much cheaper to just sell the same item and have the 240V one run a bit hotter and die sooner so you can sell another one.
Yes I want to remove the powder from the copper pipes. Some came out when I pulled the wire out but still a lot in there. I was told distilled water or hydrochloric acid
Yes, they can be bent fairly easily. Elements are made as a single straight length and then bent to shape afterwards. The main risk is bending the same sections multiple times, which will work-harden the metal and eventually cause it to fracture.
@@jwflame Thanks. Do you think cartridge like this can touch a 4 inch pvc pipe tank on the very end corner? www.amazon.com/dp/B0788LBYSK/?coliid=I16P861TTGNZ7F&colid=3VZA1N9BXNGW7&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it like this: photos.app.goo.gl/J3hejaj2zWHKb4Di6 .. I only want to warm the water like 15 minute.
Maybe they didn't earth the housing because they know their cheap element will become leaky as soon as you use it. The magnesium oxide is probably impure, or the end caps are not watertight, they know it's junk so they just tell you not to stick your fingers in the water. Problem, safety officer?
LOL "This is a band saw, and these are my fingers.... today were going to cut them open and see what's inside.. . . here we have ligaments and also some veins and capillaries, along with fatty tissue and at the stumps on my hand, lies bones which connect the digits , where my former fingers resided.. . . . now if you will excuse me I need to call 999 AS I've lost an substantial amount of blood. . . .and AM in agonizing pain! [ Turns sheet white and passes out ]
![โฮ่ง! (SUGOI) - LYKN [ OFFICIAL MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nFp4zjAARFs/mqdefault.jpg)
With regard to MICC or Pyro cable, a 2 core of approximately 6 or 7 mm diameter, starts off as two thick wires surrounded by insulation mineral, and fat copper strip. The copper strip is about 75 mm wide, it is rolled into a cylinder, then the seam is welded, then it is reduced in diameter, compressing the mineral, and drawing the fire/sheath. This method allows several hundreds of metres of final length to be produced.
I worked at company who manufactured the rolling stands, and the end user was not disclosed, this was in the early 1990's, and allegedly was in a response to having continuous cable for control systems on Navy ships, ref Loss of systems suffered during Falklands war. Obviously multiple cores in this alleged application.
Great work John.
I work making these and the power is magnesium oxide sand and the wire is 80/20 nickel chromium wire
could you tell me what type of material or ( glue) used to seal the tubular heating element at the both ends, please?
as I am working to produce one but I don't know what kind of material can be used to close the both ends
Hi, i have a problem that maybe you can help me with, i have modified a pizza elettric oven that has 2 heating element, one under the coking plate and one above it (both of them are 600watt), i have removed the bottom one and placed on top together with the other one, for a total of 1200watt above the plate, i reach 430 degrees celsius on the coking plate for coking pizza, but the problem is that after the coking i have found metal particles on the coking plate (a lot of them like a powder) and i have used a magnet for picking up this particles, now the oven is made from stainless steel aisi 300 series and its not magnetic and it has no visible sings of corrosion, i think that the metal particles come from the heating elements (the magnet do not stick to them too so probably also aisi 300 series), and also this wasnt happening before i placed the bottom heating element above together with the other one, do you know what is goin on? the heating element are in apparently good shape i dont see any visible signs of corrosion or rust on them, one thing to mention is that the heating elements touch eachother (for a reason of tight space available in the oven) so maybe when they heat up and expand and then cool down and reverse there is friction between them, or maybe is beacuse they heat up to much (the glowing color bytheway is red not orange or yellow). Do you know what those metal particles can be? Thanks
@@ahmedmaher2923 porcelain can be used or sodium silicate mixed with alumina powder
How can I remove the magnesium oxide from the copper tubes. Some came out when i pulled the wire out but not all of it.. I was told distilled water or hydrochloric acid
@@ahmedmaher2923 only just seen this, I used heat proof silicone and a ceramic end cap
The white material is mag ox, a dielectric (insulator) but transfers the heat. If water gets in, put element in oven on low, overnight.
We had a shower that started to trip the RCD, inside the boiler unit was a pair of elements of similar construction to that. One of them actually had a crack in it.
I always wondered what is inside those. Makes sense.
I also wondered as good heat conductors generally are also good conductors of electricity.
I bough a cheap kettle from Tesco when I bought my house so I can make a brew while doing work before I moved in, worked fine with no issue, then I have my old fuse box replaced with a modern consumer unit and it kept tripping the RCD when I turned on the kettle. This explains why
Excellent.
I had no idea that the element is such a small diameter and thin gauge.
Thank you very much.
I don't know why, I expected the actual heating part (fillament) to be much bigger. Is this typical filament size for the thickness of the outer metal bars?
Not sure, have only seen a few others where the element had split open when it failed, and they were of similar construction.
Colin Richardson
I was expecting it to be a solid non wound resistive wire, I also imagined the insulating material to be a plaster of Paris type material.
I wonder how they keep the thin internal wire from making contact with the outer metal tubing?
I can't imagine the powder doing a very good job of keeping the element in place, let alone around all the curves and bends they often put in them.
The powder is packed in so tight it can't move. As John mentioned there is a type of cable that uses the same principle, it's known as MICC, Mineral Insulated Copper Clad. Old school electricians talk about Pyro which is the same as calling any vacuume cleaner a 'hoover'.
When I was an apprentice way back in the 1970's our instructor demonstrated it's versatility and hence why it's used by smashing it almost flat with a hammer. It still worked and passed the electrical tests.
Hoover is just so wonderfully onomatopoeic a name for them :)
So you already knew that after watching your Class I II III video, we will look further for workign of Class I with plastic covers (electric kettle as in your example). Thanks for the video.
Thank you for those informations
Cheers John , best wishes from Northern Ireland.
From the video, this is a poor quality heating element because the MgO is too loose,the loose MgO can make the wire unable to separate from the air and cause oxidation
Thank you man i found the problem thanks to you... My geyser is turning the breaker not the short circuit breaker but the other 1! So I tested the element against the tank of the boiler for OHMs and it should be infinit right? I got 10k and rising so it must be water then because its rising right? So i order new heating element...
Recently carried out an EICR on a MICC installation I did 5 years ago, all circuits greater than 1000 M Ohm. Its only poor potting (sealing) that normally causes low insulation readings!
Many moons ago I worked for the old LEB (London Electricity Board) and we had the maintenance contract with most London councils for the public loos. I'm going way way back as you tell.
They were staffed by attendants who looked after them immaculately; all the porcelain gleamed, the tiles were wiped down regularly, floor mopped constantly. They also lovingly polished all the copper work, both water pipes and the 'pyro' till it shone. We routinely had to replace sections where they had 'polished' through the wall.
@@Raysnature Yes I remember a pub landlady who did the same, polished the 'pyro' till the sheath pin holed Lol
I remember using a bandsaw for caaual freehand cuts in some PCB laminate at my old place of f work to show a work experience kid, and him almost being physically sick, convinced I was about to lose at least one finger ..
Are the elements made straight then bent to shape?
Yes, and you can buy them yourself and bend them to your own design.
Hey john this isn’t related to the video. However I gotta ask, what is you’re opinion on Article 13? Would it kill both mine and you’re TH-cam channel?
I think the white powder is certainly illegal drugs. 🤔
Will the powder dissolve if I left the cut pipes to soak in water. I've removed the wire coils
No, magnesium oxide is not soluble in water. Some of it may react with the water to form magnesium hydroxide.
@@jwflame right, nothing will remove it or dissolve it. I may try cleaning vinegar
1:42 - I couldn’t hear him clearly but what did he say that white powder material was that got out of the inside of the heating coil element? Did he say magnesium oxide?
Yes, magnesium oxide.
Awesome! Thanks @John Ward.
How did you remove this powder
I would assume a 120 volt version would use a thicker filament so as to have lower resistance for the same power rating?
You'd think so, but then again it's much cheaper to just sell the same item and have the 240V one run a bit hotter and die sooner so you can sell another one.
More likely just have a shorter length of element wire and thus a lower resistance. Much cheaper that way.
Pete Allum it will get blew more easily if you do that
Would it not be: longer the element conductor more resistance thus less power?
He means the outer tube would be longer for a more powerful element; the resistance wire inside would be of similar length, but thicker.
How to remove magnesium oxide and element from coils for circular tube making?? Any easy way??
Yes I want to remove the powder from the copper pipes. Some came out when I pulled the wire out but still a lot in there. I was told distilled water or hydrochloric acid
That's nicron wire inside???Please tell me.
Someone else in the comments said that it is.
Is there any way to slightly bend these? I need to bend one 45 degrees near the port.
Yes, they can be bent fairly easily. Elements are made as a single straight length and then bent to shape afterwards. The main risk is bending the same sections multiple times, which will work-harden the metal and eventually cause it to fracture.
@@jwflame Thanks. Do you think cartridge like this can touch a 4 inch pvc pipe tank on the very end corner? www.amazon.com/dp/B0788LBYSK/?coliid=I16P861TTGNZ7F&colid=3VZA1N9BXNGW7&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it like this: photos.app.goo.gl/J3hejaj2zWHKb4Di6 .. I only want to warm the water like 15 minute.
Easy to see why that element failed when all the magnesium oxide powder fell out it simply failed to insulate
John...The problem was they forgot to put the magic smoke into it...
😅😅😅😅
👍
Maybe they didn't earth the housing because they know their cheap element will become leaky as soon as you use it.
The magnesium oxide is probably impure, or the end caps are not watertight, they know it's junk so they just tell you not to stick your fingers in the water. Problem, safety officer?
Pity you didn't measure the two parts to see where the short occured; in the body or in the element!
It didnt short. He destroyed it in previous video and it was open, not shorted.
Cocaine for isolation?
I was expecting fire and/or death to be contained inside any Chinese electrical item.
So nothing much wrong with it then. You must have been unlucky and got a dodgy one.
he burned it out by not putting it in water
That your chave get up
Watch them" FINGERS " on the band saw otherwise you shall be revealing what's inside those digits !
Just as well you mentioned that, it's so hard to know which power tools are safe to play with and which ones you need to be careful around :-P
LOL "This is a band saw, and these are my fingers.... today were going to cut them open and see what's inside.. . .
here we have ligaments and also some veins and capillaries, along with fatty tissue and at the stumps on my hand, lies bones which connect the digits , where my former fingers resided.. . . . now if you will excuse me I need to call 999 AS I've lost an substantial amount of blood. . . .and AM in agonizing pain! [ Turns sheet white and passes out ]