Hi. I've just come across this video, many years after being posted, and it is still helping people. I am making a micro caravan, and I needed to get the curve right for the front. I followed the instructions in your video, and bingo! A perfect curve👍Thanks for posting 🇬🇧
Good tip Matt, thanks. If you draw that quarter of an ellipse on hardboard or 1/4" MDF it can be used as a template for the router, flipping it over to get the second half of either the long or short quadrant which will then be identical.
When you do the actual (physical) practice, you build the tactical memory. Actually do it for 10 times and you shouldn’t need an 11th, unless you are dealing with an information retaining issue.
I think this is called the “card method”. I have always used the string method but you need string with no stretch and good fingers to make a clean ellipse. This is one of those skills you learn as a carpenter and cant believe how good it works. I learned this before there was internet so it was passed to me from an old timer. One of the most head scratching things i learned was framing a bell shaped roof for a gazebo. Read a book and still had a hard time. Remember there is a hip involved with a different curve than the common rafters. You wont find someone doing that on TH-cam, what a PITA. Great video and very precise curve you made, one of the few real carpenters on you tube.👍
Picking jaw off table. Another great pro tip! As a scenery builder I probably get called to make elliptical stuff more often than a home builder, this is GREAT. [but I also like to make doors, and a door with an elliptical window is a top seller]
Phil, Crazy cool, isn't it? You're right: as a carpenter/contractor I don't see much demand for elliptical stuff but when I do I love using this method! Truth be told I'll probably be watching my own video next time since I usually forget the finer points of using this trick because it can be a year or 18 months in between projects :-(
Thanks MrCaffineBean... it always takes a measure of faith, hoping I don't get a nasty sliver in the process, but its so quick and easy I take the risk!
Thanks Robert... Glad this works out for you... I sometimes wish I needed to use this method more often because it kinda seems like magic when it works, doesn't it? Best, Matt PS Thanks for adding me to your short list of subscriptions... I really appreciate the endorsement!
Great video..This I can see is much more accurate than the string method I have always used..though string method is somewhat accurate..this is much more consistent and accurate..Thank you...I love this channel!!!
You are correct, Richard... I must not have mentioned that in the video but should have. Thanks for complimenting, commenting and adding a couple Next Level Carpentry videos to you 'Liked Videos' playlist!
I want to see you router cut this, with a wider set-stick, and the nails in the same dimension !!!😎🙂🤓 Rock on rRichard, sweet trick. Now correct me if in mistacken, the pencil nail is right in the center of the stick?🤔
Ian, Glad you liked it... just think how useful this would be if slices of toast were elliptical... you could just switch out the pencil for a butter knife and REALLY butter your toast :-) Thanks for adding a comment and a chuckle!
I like ellipses for furniture doors, bases and mirrors, and I HATE the miserable string/wire method. Thank you for demonstrating this method which will make more precise and better looking curves. Have you tried that ellipse stick on a pig?
'ellipse stick on a pig' you make me laugh out loud Francis... 'ellipse stick on a pig' 🤣🤣🤣😎 I CAN tell you this: drawing ellipses for client projects using this method is one way of bringing home the bacon. Best, Matt
Hannu, thanks for your comments! As long as the pencil doesn't slip out of the 'angle in the corner' this works remarkably well for woodworking tolerances. Best, Matt
You know that and I know that, Christopher, but there's the TH-cam search factor to consider. This is a channel about carpentry, not a high school or college math class. How many people who are thinking about adding an elliptical curve to a woodworking project are going to pick up their smart phone and ask 'hey Siri, I need to see a video that shows me how to accurately draw a quadrant of an ellipse.'? I'm guessing it would be close to zero. While I appreciate the correctness of your mathematical terminology in your comment I'll suggest that you try to keep a real world perspective so you don't appear to be a boor to the wider audience. Best, Matt
I believe so Tony... you can always do a trial run on a piece of cardboard to see if everything fits the way you want before committing to an MDF pattern. Best, Matt
I had use a water hose to make any shape of circle, just put the hose in the manner that you want the circle or oval, tape it down and draw around it and puff it's there.
Hose works great for random curves but this method creates a true elliptical curve... but the method of choice depends on the project at hand, right? Best, Matt
Got it already Hfa: check out the 'How to Cut Decorative Ends on Pergola Joists' video on NLC th-cam.com/video/0TI7AV8HdXI/w-d-xo.html . You'll see I don't use a 'direct' elliptical cutting/routing fixture but show how to use a pattern routing method for consistently excellent results.... let me know what you think? Best, Matt
An ellipse with equal major and minor axes IS a circle/arch but I'd probably use this method if a compass or more traditional tool/method didn't work: th-cam.com/video/ykzQurvEqOo/w-d-xo.html Best, Matt
It is a good one to have in mind, Gord, that's for sure. I find the greatest challenge is remembering tricks like this when faced with a project that requires it, know what I mean? :-)
If you're drawing it on the end I'd use the method explained in this video. If you're wanting different proportions than you see me using here, play around with the nail locations until you find what you like...
Duki, that's a valid question. There are methods for drawing all 4 quadrants of an ellipse at the same time ie: nails and string or a trammel gizmo of one design or other. Most of the time I need half an ellipse (ie 2 quadrants) and use the method shown here to trace and cut one very accurate quadrant template and then just flip it over for the 2nd quadrant. The reason I do it this way is for accuracy because an 'ellipse stick' doesn't stretch like a piece of string does so I feel the end results is more consistent and therefore more accurate... so, it's got a lot to do with the purpose you're drawing an ellipse for in the first place. Hope that helps. Matt
You're not missing anything. This is an absurdly difficult way to make 1/4 of an ellipse centered on the corner of your workpiece. Use the sting method, it's much easier and there is no fabrication involved.
It appears to me, Richard, that you're making some assumptions which are leading to false conclusions. This video is a prime example showing where, how and why the more precision 'ellipse stick' method is used: th-cam.com/video/0TI7AV8HdXI/w-d-xo.html Granted, the 1/4 ellipse profile used on this project could simply be cut out with a jigsaw but not for paying customers of my business. Best, Matt
MAVEN FELICIANO thank u. I know he didn't come up with them. They are used by math/geometry people whereas in the trades we use rise and run. That's all I was getting at
Clear and concise. You make excellent tutorials. You make it look easy. Love it. Just realised what the missing link is in the videos. No personal name!!! Couldn't find it anywhere! Kind regards Jim www.rwjsear.com
Thanks, Jim! Glad you find the tutorials helpful despite their unprofessional production quality. You're right... I need to edit the 'About' tab to include my name. It never dawned on me that it isn't there Duoh!
What other three quadrants? The video shows how to draw an elliptical curve and leaves it to the viewer's intelligence to extrapolate if they are looking for a full ellipse... Just sayin
You showed how to draw 1 quarter of an ellipse. Yes, one can cut and paste 4 quarters together, but many times a person will just want a simple method of drawing an entire ellipse, and in the center not at the edge of something, and your method of doing that would be more complicated and time consuming that just using the string method.
More complicated? Maybe a little bit, but always more accurate and consistent IMHO. If the string method is what you need and good enough, then, by all means, use it.
uhhh am i missing something thats just 1/4 of the elipse that requires and right angle piece of hardboard to complete....... if i tell you imma pay you 100 bucks then hand you 25.........
I know it's an intellectual stretch but many woodworkers are able to extrapolate the 90 degree quadrant of an ellipse into a half of full ellipse, depending on requirements of the project at hand. Here's the other $75: The important lesson here is that a 1/4 ellipse drawn with this method and multiplied to a half or full ellipse is more accurate than most methods that show drawing a full ellipse.
Maybe so... the good thing about the method shown in this video is that it's simple, accurate and dependable. I find it best to layout a perfect 1/4 ellipse and repeat it either once or 4 times depending on requirements. I prefer this to laying out a full ellipse and cutting it in half or quarters. If there's an equally simple and accurate way to layout 1/2 and ellipse I'd likely adapt it.
There's actually some other instructionals, here on TH-cam, that use 2 sticks to draw a half ellipse in one go. Whether or not it is as easy as this is certainly debatable. A nail is driven at the zenith of the ellipse, where a vertical midline intersects it. Two more nails are driven in at either end of the ellipse. Two sticks are positioned, one against midpoint nail and right end nail. the other stick rests on the midpoint nail also but is kept parallel with the baseline. The two are joined together at their intersection. Pencil in crotch draw while keeping sticks against the nails..... better to see it done.
Thanks for following up Joe... that method seems familiar, now that you mention it... sounds like something I should check into a bit more for those times when a 'full' half ellipse is the goal as any extra set-up time spent in the beginning would be offset by less fussing later mirroring the 1/4 pattern method shown here. Best, Matt
Way too long. We don't need to see you taking calipers to a pencil and picking out drill bits. And, in the end, you didn't have an ellipse, you had one quarter of an ellipse on the corner of a board. The string method is much easier and simpler.
Richard, If you goal is to simply draw a full ellipse and 'the string method' is quicker and accurate enough for you for DIY home craft projects then there's no need to employ the method shown in this video. The 'elipse stick' method I demonstrate here has numerous applications for serious woodworking projects that need to be executed in a more professional manner because clients are paying good, often serious, money for the finished product where inaccuracy from a flexible string is unacceptable. Best, Matt
Your comment is a breath of fresh air Roy... I really appreciate it, although I probably don't deserve it... I barely resisted temptation to use a white boxing glove and administer a dope slap... it must have been one of my better days! 😒🙄😁 Best, Matt
Glad to hear it @@mollymuzette5860... interesting how different your perspective is from Richard M's above. Hope a couple pin holes in your canvas aren't a deal breaker though? Best, Matt
Hi. I've just come across this video, many years after being posted, and it is still helping people. I am making a micro caravan, and I needed to get the curve right for the front. I followed the instructions in your video, and bingo! A perfect curve👍Thanks for posting 🇬🇧
I have no idea what a micro caravan is but I'm glad this old video helped you out!
Good tip Matt, thanks. If you draw that quarter of an ellipse on hardboard or 1/4" MDF it can be used as a template for the router, flipping it over to get the second half of either the long or short quadrant which will then be identical.
You got it, Bob! Best, Matt
You are absolutely amazing! I need to draw an ellipse for my RV flooring. This is the ticket!
I have watched this 10 time , every time I smile at the simplicity. But would you think I would remember. Looking forward to number 11 :)
When you do the actual (physical) practice, you build the tactical memory. Actually do it for 10 times and you shouldn’t need an 11th, unless you are dealing with an information retaining issue.
I take notes because I cannot remember either.
I think this is called the “card method”. I have always used the string method but you need string with no stretch and good fingers to make a clean ellipse.
This is one of those skills you learn as a carpenter and cant believe how good it works. I learned this before there was internet so it was passed to me from an old timer.
One of the most head scratching things i learned was framing a bell shaped roof for a gazebo. Read a book and still had a hard time. Remember there is a hip involved with a different curve than the common rafters. You wont find someone doing that on TH-cam, what a PITA.
Great video and very precise curve you made, one of the few real carpenters on you tube.👍
Interesting. And it’s with wood construction was it now?
I’d need to look into that. I must figure the way, and without using calculations! 😉 👍
Picking jaw off table. Another great pro tip! As a scenery builder I probably get called to make elliptical stuff more often than a home builder, this is GREAT. [but I also like to make doors, and a door with an elliptical window is a top seller]
Phil,
Crazy cool, isn't it? You're right: as a carpenter/contractor I don't see much demand for elliptical stuff but when I do I love using this method! Truth be told I'll probably be watching my own video next time since I usually forget the finer points of using this trick because it can be a year or 18 months in between projects :-(
Wonderful! You made excellent idea. Thank you very much. Please keep giving more and more tricks.
You're welcome manohar... hope you'll browse other Next Level Carpentry videos for other useful tips and tricks! Best, Matt
Great trick, thanks.
Perfect! Thank you. You just helped me on a job I have planned.
Glad to hear it LMR... it's just that sort of trick to make a job 'click'... have fun using it! Best, Matt
Breaking out those free hand center marking skills, very nice!
Thanks MrCaffineBean... it always takes a measure of faith, hoping I don't get a nasty sliver in the process, but its so quick and easy I take the risk!
Used this technique a couple times recently. Works great.
Thanks Robert... Glad this works out for you... I sometimes wish I needed to use this method more often because it kinda seems like magic when it works, doesn't it?
Best,
Matt
PS Thanks for adding me to your short list of subscriptions... I really appreciate the endorsement!
Brilliant! Thanks
Today is the day I need this Matt. Thanks for the upgrade.
You're quite welcome Brian... glad to be of service😎
Great video..This I can see is much more accurate than the string method I have always used..though string method is somewhat accurate..this is much more consistent and accurate..Thank you...I love this channel!!!
Great video. The template board must be have a 90 degree angle I believe, before inscribing elements from stick correct?
You are correct, Richard... I must not have mentioned that in the video but should have. Thanks for complimenting, commenting and adding a couple Next Level Carpentry videos to you 'Liked Videos' playlist!
I want to see you router cut this, with a wider set-stick, and the nails in the same dimension !!!😎🙂🤓 Rock on rRichard, sweet trick. Now correct me if in mistacken, the pencil nail is right in the center of the stick?🤔
That was so simple. Thank you for making this video. Crisis averted.
excellent simplification of a " complicated " procedure. thank you sir for your time and post! ;-)
Thanks, Patrick! I appreciate your comment and for 'liking' this little video. Hope you find other stuff at NLC helpful and beneficial...
Incredible! Thanks for sharing!
Well if that just doesn't butter your toast. Pretty slick! Thanks for sharing! Now, if I can just remember this when I need it.
Ian, Glad you liked it... just think how useful this would be if slices of toast were elliptical... you could just switch out the pencil for a butter knife and REALLY butter your toast :-) Thanks for adding a comment and a chuckle!
Thanks for the showing me this link.
Youbetcha... this and the Draw a Circle with a Square video you found are legit 'old school' carpentry tips/tricks that are also timeless IMHO...
learn something new everyday, thanx
You're welcome! 😁😎
Awesome. Definately next level. Can hardly wait to use this trick. Thanks.
Did you use it?
I like ellipses for furniture doors, bases and mirrors, and I HATE the miserable string/wire method. Thank you for demonstrating this method which will make more precise and better looking curves. Have you tried that ellipse stick on a pig?
'ellipse stick on a pig' you make me laugh out loud Francis... 'ellipse stick on a pig' 🤣🤣🤣😎 I CAN tell you this: drawing ellipses for client projects using this method is one way of bringing home the bacon. Best, Matt
Glad you're not being a ham and hogging all the jokes @@NextLevelCarpentry
@@francismccabe3265 you don't miss a single opportunity, do you?! 😁😂
Holy crap, this is good stuff lol I certainly won’t miss using the string method
I know exactly what you mean Cole! Thanks for adding your thoughts... Best, Matt
Wow! That is just classical geometry applied, and requires a precise straight angle in the corner!
Hannu, thanks for your comments! As long as the pencil doesn't slip out of the 'angle in the corner' this works remarkably well for woodworking tolerances. Best, Matt
accurate and an excellent shape, However we are creating a quadrant so only half the length of the two axis required not the full length as stated
You know that and I know that, Christopher, but there's the TH-cam search factor to consider. This is a channel about carpentry, not a high school or college math class. How many people who are thinking about adding an elliptical curve to a woodworking project are going to pick up their smart phone and ask 'hey Siri, I need to see a video that shows me how to accurately draw a quadrant of an ellipse.'? I'm guessing it would be close to zero. While I appreciate the correctness of your mathematical terminology in your comment I'll suggest that you try to keep a real world perspective so you don't appear to be a boor to the wider audience. Best, Matt
Very good ... thanks that!!
WOW!!!!!! love it
Cool trick! Thanks!
5star idea & time saver
Excellent.
Thanks Jameson... hope this little trick helps you do better work more quickly and accurately. Best, Matt
Awesome work! Looking forward to see more :)
Working on it Cassan... hope you can stay tuned a bit longer since there's some cool video projects 'in the pipeline'! Best, Matt
If the opening is 6ft wide, do you use 3ft as major axis.?
I believe so Tony... you can always do a trial run on a piece of cardboard to see if everything fits the way you want before committing to an MDF pattern. Best, Matt
I had use a water hose to make any shape of circle, just put the hose in the manner that you want the circle or oval, tape it down and draw around it and puff it's there.
Hose works great for random curves but this method creates a true elliptical curve... but the method of choice depends on the project at hand, right? Best, Matt
I wished you would have done the whole thing. The Russian have a nice jig ck it out.
@@ccccen But I only needed to make a 1/4 ellipse... and a very accurate one at that. Different methods for different purposes.
true, true
How about a tutorial on cutting the ellipse with a router?
Got it already Hfa: check out the 'How to Cut Decorative Ends on Pergola Joists' video on NLC
th-cam.com/video/0TI7AV8HdXI/w-d-xo.html .
You'll see I don't use a 'direct' elliptical cutting/routing fixture but show how to use a pattern routing method for consistently excellent results.... let me know what you think? Best, Matt
I was kinda bored until I saw how you draw this.
I've seen the process. I saw what happened. I don't get how it happened
Thank you
Is there a video on how to accurately cut the ellipse drawn?
Here's one application of cutting a quarter ellipse Phillip: th-cam.com/video/0TI7AV8HdXI/w-d-xo.html hope that helps, a little at least? Best, Matt
Will that formula work on arches as well?
An ellipse with equal major and minor axes IS a circle/arch but I'd probably use this method if a compass or more traditional tool/method didn't work: th-cam.com/video/ykzQurvEqOo/w-d-xo.html
Best, Matt
I thought you were going to do the whole oval shape, I'm disappointed :(
Well I'll be goddamned... That was educational as hell. Thank you.
great and smart! thanks!
Sweet, ain't it? Hope you get to show it off sometime too :-)
Next Level Carpentry
I definitely will. I must say that this is one of the best carpentery diy channels. cheers and regards from Israel 🍷
From Israel? Cool... and Shalom!
Much more accurate than the string and foci method.
For sure, Mateo!
Nice
Thanks for sayin' Randy...much appreciated. Best, Matt
Great video... definitely putting that one in the "old data bank"...
It is a good one to have in mind, Gord, that's for sure. I find the greatest challenge is remembering tricks like this when faced with a project that requires it, know what I mean? :-)
Next Level Carpentry
Yeah, especially as you get older...
How would I do an elipse on a 12' 2 x12
If you're drawing it on the end I'd use the method explained in this video. If you're wanting different proportions than you see me using here, play around with the nail locations until you find what you like...
like it. Thanks
You're welcome, Randy... hope you find other stuff you like at Next Level Carpentry! Best, Matt
String on pin in slot ? 🤔🤔🤔
Thumbs up!
I’m a bit confused. That’s only half an arc. What if you want the full arc? I like the technique though. What am I missing here? Thanks
Duki, that's a valid question. There are methods for drawing all 4 quadrants of an ellipse at the same time ie: nails and string or a trammel gizmo of one design or other. Most of the time I need half an ellipse (ie 2 quadrants) and use the method shown here to trace and cut one very accurate quadrant template and then just flip it over for the 2nd quadrant. The reason I do it this way is for accuracy because an 'ellipse stick' doesn't stretch like a piece of string does so I feel the end results is more consistent and therefore more accurate... so, it's got a lot to do with the purpose you're drawing an ellipse for in the first place. Hope that helps.
Matt
You're not missing anything. This is an absurdly difficult way to make 1/4 of an ellipse centered on the corner of your workpiece. Use the sting method, it's much easier and there is no fabrication involved.
It appears to me, Richard, that you're making some assumptions which are leading to false conclusions. This video is a prime example showing where, how and why the more precision 'ellipse stick' method is used: th-cam.com/video/0TI7AV8HdXI/w-d-xo.html
Granted, the 1/4 ellipse profile used on this project could simply be cut out with a jigsaw but not for paying customers of my business. Best, Matt
No maths, then had to add imperial fractions , only kidding , nice technique.
Vravo maystro
WOW!
Why do you call it a major and minor axis? Why not just rise and run? Thank u
It’s the traditional vernacular. He didn’t come up with these terms, but just used the standard words.
MAVEN FELICIANO thank u. I know he didn't come up with them. They are used by math/geometry people whereas in the trades we use rise and run. That's all I was getting at
Right
Easiest way is to use windows paint program to print off a pattern.
I disagree... but if that works for you, more power to you! 😉😎
Like magic! Lol. Unfortunately that would not work with pickets.... The whole point I watched this video...oh well, thumbs up anyways! 😀
draw it on a piece of scrap and transfer it to the fence
Clear and concise. You make excellent tutorials. You make it look easy. Love it.
Just realised what the missing link is in the videos. No personal name!!! Couldn't find it anywhere!
Kind regards Jim www.rwjsear.com
Thanks, Jim! Glad you find the tutorials helpful despite their unprofessional production quality.
You're right... I need to edit the 'About' tab to include my name. It never dawned on me that it isn't there Duoh!
Where are the other three quadrants?
What other three quadrants? The video shows how to draw an elliptical curve and leaves it to the viewer's intelligence to extrapolate if they are looking for a full ellipse... Just sayin
You showed how to draw 1 quarter of an ellipse. Yes, one can cut and paste 4 quarters together, but many times a person will just want a simple method of drawing an entire ellipse, and in the center not at the edge of something, and your method of doing that would be more complicated and time consuming that just using the string method.
More complicated? Maybe a little bit, but always more accurate and consistent IMHO. If the string method is what you need and good enough, then, by all means, use it.
holy smokes. thank you!
This isn't a trick that you need often but when you do it works fantastic so I hope you get a chance to put it to use. Best, Matt
uhhh am i missing something thats just 1/4 of the elipse that requires and right angle piece of hardboard to complete.......
if i tell you imma pay you 100 bucks then hand you 25.........
I know it's an intellectual stretch but many woodworkers are able to extrapolate the 90 degree quadrant of an ellipse into a half of full ellipse, depending on requirements of the project at hand. Here's the other $75: The important lesson here is that a 1/4 ellipse drawn with this method and multiplied to a half or full ellipse is more accurate than most methods that show drawing a full ellipse.
Is this you, or one of the Clones? That Red shirt looks familiar.
Uhmmm... I don't remember Doug... guess I should include that in the video credits, right?! 😁🤣🤣😎 Best, Matt
I saw half an ellipse. Did I miss something, sorry ?
Actually you saw 1/4 of an ellipse but a viable elliptical curve just the same. Best, Matt
Yes 1/4 but I think most people using them are looking for a 1/2.
Maybe so... the good thing about the method shown in this video is that it's simple, accurate and dependable. I find it best to layout a perfect 1/4 ellipse and repeat it either once or 4 times depending on requirements. I prefer this to laying out a full ellipse and cutting it in half or quarters. If there's an equally simple and accurate way to layout 1/2 and ellipse I'd likely adapt it.
There's actually some other instructionals, here on TH-cam, that use 2 sticks to draw a half ellipse in one go. Whether or not it is as easy as this is certainly debatable. A nail is driven at the zenith of the ellipse, where a vertical midline intersects it. Two more nails are driven in at either end of the ellipse. Two sticks are positioned, one against midpoint nail and right end nail. the other stick rests on the midpoint nail also but is kept parallel with the baseline. The two are joined together at their intersection. Pencil in crotch draw while keeping sticks against the nails..... better to see it done.
Thanks for following up Joe... that method seems familiar, now that you mention it... sounds like something I should check into a bit more for those times when a 'full' half ellipse is the goal as any extra set-up time spent in the beginning would be offset by less fussing later mirroring the 1/4 pattern method shown here. Best, Matt
Only 5 tools and then he pulls out a bunch of fancy tools
how to draw 1/2 an ellipse.
Draw two 1/4 ellipses and combine them...
Who would have been able to come up with that ???
I think the string method is much easier, and requires less tools.
Dom, the string method is useful... as long as its level of accuracy is adequate for the project at hand there's no reason not to use it...
The string method will draw the whole ellipse.
Didn't say you needed a drill or bits.
Nope... nor a stick, a pencil, a hammer, a piece of plywood or a ....
Way too long. We don't need to see you taking calipers to a pencil and picking out drill bits. And, in the end, you didn't have an ellipse, you had one quarter of an ellipse on the corner of a board. The string method is much easier and simpler.
Richard,
If you goal is to simply draw a full ellipse and 'the string method' is quicker and accurate enough for you for DIY home craft projects then there's no need to employ the method shown in this video. The 'elipse stick' method I demonstrate here has numerous applications for serious woodworking projects that need to be executed in a more professional manner because clients are paying good, often serious, money for the finished product where inaccuracy from a flexible string is unacceptable.
Best, Matt
Next Level Carpentry , nice slap with a white glove, my respects to your video and your person
Your comment is a breath of fresh air Roy... I really appreciate it, although I probably don't deserve it... I barely resisted temptation to use a white boxing glove and administer a dope slap... it must have been one of my better days! 😒🙄😁 Best, Matt
Glad to hear it @@mollymuzette5860... interesting how different your perspective is from Richard M's above. Hope a couple pin holes in your canvas aren't a deal breaker though? Best, Matt
You tell him Matt. If the viewer can’t figure that out he/she is not a carpenter. Well done!