Cable measurement is not science. Why no double-blind cable test?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- #audiophile #hifi #stereo #cables
Please note the photo showing the inside of the network was a speaker cable and not the cables shown in the thumbnail or at the beginning of the video. Note: I might have stated the incorrect value of the resistor.
The system used in HIFI Cable sound demo
Link to sound demo: • Sound demo comparing A...
Link to Jay's cable blind test video: • Hi-fi BLIND A/B test -...
Silverline Sonata Speakers
Exasound E28 DAC
1st sound demo
Mcintosh MAC6700 AMP
2nd sound demo
Devialet 200 AMP
Expensive cables $6k+ (System B)
Audioquest coffee USB
Siltech ST28 interconnects
Siltech 550L
Siltech Crown Prince Power cable
Cheap cables (System A)
$1 USB cable
Blue Jean interconnect (2nd sound demo)
Van del Hul the second (1st sound demo)
Amazon speaker cables
![[UNCUT] “บอสณวัฒน์” ลากไส้!! ใครหนุนหลัง "แม่ตั๊ก ป๋าเบียร์" I คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ I 30 ก.ย. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QlD7mU2KKRk/mqdefault.jpg)
Making your system sound different is easy, "better" is where the waters get muddy.
Better is totally individual so i don’t know why there’s a debate at all.
,,Better,, than what? What are the criteria? Very difficult questions to asnwer
@@khoi83 To you this thing sound better than something else you tried.
@@brainache555 define ,, better,, then
@@brainache555 Couldn't have said it better myself. 👍
I started reading the comments and instantly hit the tired old “If you can’t hear a difference, then you’re too poor...’ comment which Thomas already blew a hole through: that you could have a colored system (expensive or no) and it could be extremely hard to tell any difference. Similarly, how many of us have played our systems proudly for non-audiophiles, convinced that it was going to change their lives and all you get was a “Yeah, it sounds OK, I guess. My Bose Wave radio sounds good, too”.
@Sean MacDonald yea funny enough same applies to my aunt 😄
I think that the only person you need to please and impress with your sound system is yourself. Who cares what other people think or say?
A Bose Wave "is" my sound system, too. It ROCKS!...and....No cables to worry about! 👻
2 things:
1.) A $12 Belkin Gold cable from sounds significantly better than a generic OEM/Office Depot cable off the shelf for about the same price. No, it’s not because the USB plugs are gold plated (gold isn’t a great conductor, but it doesn’t rust easily), it’s because of the stuff inside. So, you don’t have to be rich enough.
2. I’m an absolute novice when it comes to wine tasting. Sure, I’ve heard of the terms “Dry” or “nutty,” but I don’t know what a “dry” liquid tastes like, and even though I’m 34 I can’t say I’ve had a wine that reminds me of cashews or walnuts. With headphones, Ten years ago, I could hear stuff like “more bass” or “muffled” because I had plenty of life experience about such things, but I had no idea what “digital hash,” “modal distortion,” or even what a 1 kHz tone was. Yep, there is surely placebo where you think you’ll hear something because someone said you should, but a trained ear is also better at separating the wheat from the chaff. 🌾
When it comes to cables, I was a non-believer, shorter or more ergonomic was ok, and someone else can buy a pretty cable but it wasn’t for me. I even had a company proudly let me compare their cable vs stock, and tell me it should be obvious the difference, but I just could not. That all changed for me when a friend brought a $650 cable over for my HD 800. I was utterly shocked how much clearer and fuller everything was... the HD 800 wasn’t experiencing a frequency shift, it just sounded like I was hearing _more,_ and the change in transparency and clarity was bigger and more noticeable than many DAC changes. They were ready to help me do blind A/B comparisons, but the first time going from stock to the 3rd party cable was not subtle and, for me, well outside the realm of placebo.
I can understand not wanting clearer headphones though. “Demons” by Imagine Dragons has AWFUL drums, super distorted and digitally mangled no matter if it’s from a DSD file or a Spotify Stream. But you can’t tell as easily on a Bose wave radio, and two days ago when I heard it at the grocery store the ceiling speakers couldn’t make the drums be audible at all. My mom also prefers the softness of a blurry distorted Bose wave radio, because she just likes a little relaxing melody while eating dinner or teaching yoga... she prefers instrumental music, so it’s actually better for her if lyrics are unintelligible. There’s all kinds of audiophiles out there, and I won’t say someone else is wrong for seeking a certain kind of signature.
@@evshrug insightful comment， thank you
Thomas. This video was awesome! Probably the best explanation and most well thought out video I’ve seen on this subject
Thanks!! I gave it a lot of thoughts before making the video because I know it is a very sensitive subject.
Yes it was a great video and just to state my my opinion The only people who think cables don't matter are people who either can't afford it or have never heard it. Some guy showing you a measurement doesn't tell you anything about anything :-)
@@redleather420 I disagree, measurements are reliable but only show PARTS of the picture, but not the whole picture.
@@khoi83 they show you if something is broken or not that's it. ASR just measured a cable and said look it didn't change the frequency response or distortion therefore all cables are fake snake oil. I mean you would think these science people would be the intelligent ones but they do science worse than a second grader.
@@redleather420 ASR is not science, its a pseudo religion
6k cables? imagine what a solid set up you can have with that
6K cables are for people who have near 100 thousand dollar systems!
Yeah agree. $6k in room treatments would make a def noticeable improvement, more so than any cable could do.
@@boostedmaniac there you go
$6k cables is when your power amp/s and speakers are at least $20k each
There is a lot more that 6k will offer somewhere else in the audio chain
It’s with videos like this that you earn respect and credibility. You and The British Audiophile are my 2 favourite channels channels.
@Jingle Nuts Oh, Gene and his massive measurement rig are being sued by Synergetic Research because of the snake oil accusations against the company. This has became an epic dispute with. True story! You can follow it in a FB group called Real Audiophiles
@@TombstoneTube
DellaSella does a great dis-service to the hobby both 2 channel audio or high end home theatre. Gene is no benefactor to the industry except make nothing but accusations. Good on Denney to go after that guy. Dellasella did this to himself.
@Jingle Nuts
Hates cables but reviews 9k pre/pros and comes out with a conclusion "gotta have it". He is no benefactor to the industry/hobby.
@Jingle Nuts not the same gene who thinks 'false economy' cables are same as expensive cables! Lol
Playboy is my favorite channel, though I admit those ladies are fairly bashful. And all funny cat videos are great too.
Great video, I really don't know why some people get so angry regardless of which side of the fence they sit on. If you think that expensive cables make a difference then buy them, if you don't, then buy cheap ones. Either way, be happy and respect other people's views and most importantly, enjoy the music!
people get angry because companies are selling 12,000 $ a/c power cords to gullable people. those of us that have comon sense know its wrong and are trying to educate these people.
@@gasandbatteries9833 I can understand the motivation, it is like wanting to stop someone from getting robbed. But what if it is a reasonable price?
@@gasandbatteries9833 why the anger though?for some people who have that kind of money to spend, it would probably equate getting an Armani suit and putting on a cheap Old Navy belt instead of a Gucci one.🤷🏻♂️
@@ThomasAndStereo Hi Thomas, congratulations on presenting this hi-fi edu! Excellent from start to finish. Okay, so what is a reasonable price for an I.C., power cord, coax, etc? From my experiences and my budget, $300 is the absolute max and closer to $200 is what I prefer to max out at most of the time.
Now on a related topic, I have also discovered pleasing results using Toslink/Optical cable and it's much, much, more affordable than coax or I.C's. If I find the optical cable to my liking and affordable then the $ saved with the optical allows me to consider a tad more refined power cord or speaker wire. Anyway, do you A/B any optical-vs- coax or optical-vs- I.C.? Thank you Thomas.
@@nycbass78 well there is more to it than just that. cables are a con job. false advertising. no proof. no blind tests. alot like the junk sold on infomercials. alot like churches on tv that steal money from sheeple. hate to see it happen and things are getting done about it. Amir from audio science reveiw is one of the people doing something about it.
I have. a degree in physics, worked in academia for a while. I think that it's only folk who haven't worked in science who act religious about measurements. I use statistics every day in my job. When I come home i enjoy listening to my musical, distorted tube amp with big horn speakers - because they sound great.
I might modify that; engineers rather than scientists I have found most unpersuadable on cables. The actual scientists generally take the scientific approach whereas engineers rely on 'established' dogma.
@@turiddu9 Engineers are generally very practical people and also reliant on their equipment and calculations. If the machine tells them that the resistance and capacitance of the wire are the same, then of course you can't hear a difference. The concept that sound is interpreted somewhat subjectively by people or that there may be some aspect of sound reproduction not captured in basic measurements escapes them.
@@jefft275 If its not captured in basic measurements feel free to suggest what kind of measurements should be used. In fact maybe the cable manufacturers could tell us what measurements they use to evaluate their cable designs?
@@turiddu9 engineering is inherently an unthinking field. They believe in the "good enough" approach for every component in the chain, and believe making components better than they need to be makes no difference.
If you have difficulty figuring out if a product improves the sound, save your money. Use it to buy products that make a big difference. For the ultra high end and people with money to burn, small differences may be all you can get.
Completely agree. That is why I tell people don't bother with cables until the very end. You get way more return spending money elsewhere.
@@ThomasAndStereo The other thing about that Thomas, the more resolving your system is, the easier it is to hear a difference.
that’s what I thought when I spend over 1K on power cord. I know the actual material cost is probably like 20 bucks but I just can’t deny the change in sound quality.
@Jingle Nuts to me 1K is a lot. I invest most of my savings on crypto so hopefully I can afford a legit system after the current bull run.
@@buttonman1831 Precisely, if you have a mediocre system, putting high end cables/interconnects in the mix will not yield any "substantial" improvements.
Pick up a led zeppelin album put it on and listen to it. An enjoy the record. Thanks that is all
Hey Thomas. Great video.
I totally agree that you shouldn't ask someone let alone a youtuber to do a blind AB test or a double blind.
Not because they are not qualified like you said but because of the "cost" - some are, just like me from a background of doing such tests
and it is not hard to learn about a true double blind test if one is serious about learning about it (especially in the modern day of information, it is no unicorn)
But the cost and complication that goes into it is something that people often do not consider.
Yes, that is wrong of me to say that all TH-camrs are not qualified. Anyone who understands the scientific method and understands what are the possible factors that can influence the outcome of a test is qualified.
Not until they go to an audiologist and have their hearing checked. Like the guy who ran the ls3/5a shootout at ls35a.com did. He gets an A++ for honesty.
@@bruce8429 th-cam.com/video/rLvpVMeORns/w-d-xo.html
We certainly did
If you apart from the scientific method add a couple of university points in psychology regarding cognitive biases, projection and placebo effects you will come to understand much about high-end audio. Someone who's just dropped 5k on a cable is very inclined to hear some kind of change which they then will want to interpret as "better".
I would not disagree with you there that what you said is possibly true, we just need to do the double blind test to confirm first. Then we come up with possible different reasons why that is true. Is it placebo? Or is it true there is a difference.
Don't underestimate the power of suggestion
Audio is a hardware journey where the destination is the same, but people spend so much time arguing about the journey. What does it matter if people are spending too much as long as they enjoyed their journey - same destination
True, what other people do is their own business. Just enjoy the music.
Some people are so worried about how their gear is set up that they don't listen/enjoy the music.
Don't listen to your gear folks, listen to and enjoy the music!
I think the issue comes about when the people who hear the difference try to put down those who can't, or can't afford to buy better gear, which is where the measurement people try to intervene, try to be saviours and say its ok to have cheap cables because more expensive ones aren't better in any terms (at least as long as they measure about the same or within a certain threshold). I think many modern reviewers try to act as peaceful moderators, and tell the people who can't afford expensive cables, that its not that big of an issue.
Lucky are those among us with such carefree lives that it takes a cable to cause upset.
True
Thats why there will never be world peace
well, u know there are people out there that if they were condemned to die, standing @th gallows in front of th hangman, would start an argument over which type of rope was best!😅 I'm afraid that type of personality is plentiful in th audiophile community
@@tothemax324 True
@@gizzy2403 lol touché!!That would be a polyhemp blend rope of course.😁
According to your muddled way of thinking, a person cannot say that rubbing snake oil on cables doesn't make them sound better, until rubbing snake oil on cables is tested using the scientific method.
No, you missed the crucial point I was making when I was talking about the coke bottle. If you suddenly have 100k people reporting that after they put this snake oil on their cable and it changed the sound, then and only then you investigate because it is statiscally significant. If only 2 people said that, you send them to the mental hospital.
My goodness you’re a brave man to take on not just cables but the measurement arguments. I think you nailed it. Sensible, intelligent and informed. Bravo.
"Why no double-blind cable test?" Because some audiophiles get hurt , they want to live in a dreamworld.
Here is my largest concern with this debate... I have a decent and transparent system... yet every time I sit down and listen it never sounds exactly the same, even though I am using the exact same equipment, listening position, and music. Some days I am so impressed with the sound, other times I don't like what I'm hearing.
So for me it becomes hard for me to fully trust my own ears. I need to listen for many sessions and assess over a period of time... which makes judging minor differences from cables just that much more unreliable.
Amir, as a audiophile for almost 50 years I've experienced similar phenomenon with my modest yet transparent system. I've come to the conclusion that there are many other variables which can influence all of this. For example, voltage fluctuation and noise in the AC Mains, room temperature, relative humidity, (important for speakers,) warm-up of the equipment, break-in routine, night or day, listening with eyes shut or eyes open, (don't laugh there's a perception acuity issue here which exists,) etc. I suspect that if you can minimize these variables that you too would begin to also hear minor differences in cables. I belong to the camp that cables do indeed perform and sound different just like all other "components" in your system. Basic electrical measurements are very helpful indicators IMHO (LCR) regarding what to possibly expect however at the end of the day it all comes down to achieving synergy with your other components even in support of any individual listening preferences. For what's it worth, my financial investment in cables translates to ~ 7-8% of the $ value of my entire system when it was originally purchased. Significant but not ridiculous.
@@oldschoolaudioenthusiast I changed my powerchords and powerstrip and minimised this fluctuation nearly to zero. Cheers
Your own mood is a factor that most people don't consider.
Amir - trust your ears, I've been at this for 40 years and the same goes with my different systems. Read Alan's comment below (or above) - therein lies the answers to the nightly sound fluctuations. Cheers!
You probably should consider to try a good AC mains filter/regenerator. That may reduce fluctuations.
😂. THOMAS.... YOU BLINDED US WITH SCIENCE 😂. I LOVED IT🤗
THANKS FOR OPENING OUR EYES👀. And maybe a few minds 🤔 enlightening NEW ONES 😉😍😍😍
My experience with cables and interconnect is that they should be of solid quality,but imho its a waste
of money to go beyond the low two digits pricerange per meter. And yes,there is a lot of make believe
and scamming going on in that niche of the market.
Perhaps your most compelling video. Very well articulated. Bravo! IMO, audiophiles would be well served to listen with an open mind and to keep their minds open. FWIW, I’m confident that I’ve heard cable differences, but not in every instance.
Strange fact: I only started to think about cable replacements when I was fully content with my system.
Is there something wrong with you? The whole point about audio is to never be fully content with your system! 👻
I think there are multiple problems around the subject of cables. For me the biggest is knowing that there are great profits to be had, which makes me very suspicious.
Another one is the lack of measurements or other proof by the manufactor: if you claim your cable has better inductance/resistance or shielding you should be able to proof them.
Lastly at least for me I think the placebo effect to be one of tge most underrated phenomena in Hifi. For examppe, I was listening to a headphone and than went and EQed it to be more neutral. After EQ it was the best it ever sounded....until I realized my dac drivers circumvent the eq software. I felt stupid and the headphone went back to being not that great.
So I suspect people perceiv differences, be it placebo or real, but for me I doubt the difference to be meaningful enough that it would change my experience of my system, but i might be wrong.
How many times have I seen people go straight to first principles and derive conclusions, skipping over that whole "experimentation" bit that defines science. What's more, degrees in EE seems to make this a default behaviour in a lot of people, which is kind of scary. Or as you put it so well: people come out of university thinking they know everything, when the only thing they should really care about knowing is the scientific method in all its nuances. One example that come to mind is the ability to hear the difference in high resolution recordings. Some people go straight to first principles and say you can't possibly hear something above 20 KHz. And that's true... for pure tones. The jump that the observation remains valid going from pure tones to music is an assumption. It's not an allowed "logical" conclusion; it needs to be experimentally verified to go from hypothesis to expanding scientific knowledge. And wouldn't you know, when tested, about 30% of people can hear the difference in a double blind test. It's surprising, it's strange. It's new data that demands revising our understanding, and devising new experiments to verify the new hypothesis we'll have formulated to explain this "contradictory" result, in the quest to improve our knowledge of reality. That's what science is - or should be. Physicists couldn't be happier when they get a result that contradict their most revered theories - it means there is something more to discover and to learn after all! That's awesome and what every scientist should be rooting for. So why, sadly, do we have so many people in audio dismissing evidence, going straight to theory and first principles and deriving "logical" conclusions. The worst part is that these people typically assume WE are the ones without scientific training and that THEY are really only standing up for "science" - I had a guy like that the other day that said this verbatim to me when I was trying to explain that THD+N is only one possible measurement and that you cannot infer that two amplifiers will sound the same based on that single measurement. He probably still thinks he was right; because it becomes dogma for them. When dogma is the most unscientific thing of all.
Absolutely correct, Engineers are not necessarly scientists, they use establashed science to make things, but they are not required to discover anything new scientifically, yet some of them think they know everything there is to know about certain things.
@@Ryu288288 especially chemical engineers. They think they are the smartest in the room. 😂
Wow, your thoughts are nice laid out and I wish more people can read what you just wrote. You basically summarized my whole video in a few sentences. Yeah, I should have used your example in my video because there are studies on listening beyond 20khz.
@@ThomasAndStereo You are too kind, but thank you for your generous words! I must say your video (obviously) struck a chord for me, especially after a few recent encounters with überobjectivists. Do keep up your good work, I very much enjoy your channel.
Congratulations Thomas, this is the most concise, most relevant video on the nature of double-blind tests for audiophiles! I am adding it to my playlist of recommended videos for audiophile education. :)
I respectfully submit to you that an accurate blind test is not expensive to conduct. One does not need to live with a cable for months to notice a difference. All that is needed for an accurate blind test are the following:
1) A space, doesn't even have to be sound treated
2) A panel of volunteer test subjects
3) HiFi audio equipments
4) The cables to be blind tested.
You forgot the beer. 😁 I am sure it can be done with a budget but it depends on what you set as conditions.
This is precisely why the Molingordo/Matrix Hifi tests done in Spain a few years ago are so interesting. They were done in a very amiable, controlled setting, by audiophiles themselves with no agenda whatsoever and with exquisite etiquette. The results are there for anyone to explore.
@@robertocalvo934 I saw it and I would have changed certain things because I have an issue with some of their criteria. For example, they asked people to choose the 'best' system, well best is different for different people so are they testing the system or are they testing people's taste? I can go on and on but you get my point.
@@ThomasAndStereo I think your are mistaken. At least in the first meetings the ABx test was : can you tell apart one system(10.000 euros) from another (700 euros). They weren't asking subjective questions but rather can you tell me which one is A and B, which they couldn't (it seems that when you match sounds levels things get knotty )
@@robertocalvo934 Well at the bottom, it is written at the bottom of the page "Well, to avoid being subject of such arguments, we have gone from the usual DBT questioning "wich is the one"? to "wich one you like best"? This should eliminate the pressure that so often is called upon to demerit the use of DBT's, furthermore, on this occasion there were not preagreed a max listening time, and each listener/tester could use the music of his choice."
so done with this. the question is not, and has never been, do cables matter. of course cables matter. you literally cannot send signals without them so of course. the question, which has been definitively answered again and again is do EXPENSIVE cables sound BETTER than affordable, well made cable. you think what you want. but we dont need to "debate" the do cables matter question. honestly you are either straight up insincere or are trolling people. either way, your wasting peoples time
I was not debating do cables matter in this video btw. Those kinds of videos have been done to death.
Note: I might have stated the incorrect value of the resistor. Please keep comments respectful and intelligent. This is not a video on the value of cables nor about do cables sound different so let us stay focus. Please note the photo showing the inside of the network was a speaker cable and not the cables shown in the thumbnail or at the beginning of the video.
Link to sound demo: th-cam.com/video/iyDsbh_I7xs/w-d-xo.html
Link to Jay's cable blind test video: th-cam.com/video/HJGw8zwx-6g/w-d-xo.html
Coke tastes better in a glass bottle? For fun : www.southernliving.com/drinks/glass-soda-bottles-taste#:~:text=Glass%20is%20a%20more%20inert,the%20purest%20Coca%2DCola%20flavor.
please do me a favour and try a nordost frey 2 power cord on your amp and your player!...listen to it one hour...than go back to a realy cheap power cord. if you realy dont hear any difference...you were the first one🤣👍
you can skip your power cleaner if you want!
Thomas, start a crowd funding to hire the appropriate group ( ie: Nasa ;) for a proper double bling test. You could organize this with other audiophile TH-camrs to get audience to participate, suggest cables... Possibly involve some measurement folks (ie: audioholics, audio science review...) This would be very entertaining for sure.
This is the best take so far. Bravo!
I'd also like to throw in that the scientific method serves to minimize cognitive biases.
In Alcoholics Anonymous the first step is acknowledging you have a problem
In Audio testing the first step is acknowledging you have a bias
Your statement about TH-camrs not being qualified is in itself very biased. There are many individuals in all fields of science, medicine, history, politics, theology, etc, who are educated and well qualified to contribute their expertise. TH-cam is an open platform to discuss, share and debate. Even the DIY contributions have value in our society.
You will be surprised at all the gifted, talented and creative people out there, who have wonderful contributions and have even proven that there are the scammers, magic potions and "placebo designers" out to get your money.
Marketing unfortunately has become an art, to misguide or influence the consumer and no product out there is totally innocent of such deceptive practices. Have you ever considered that the high price influences people's thought process? Bottom line, don't bash TH-camrs for their comments or suggestions. A college degree doesn't always mean you are an expert, gifted or the final word. TH-cam audiophile platforms are only a forum to share ideas, experiences and opinions and nothing more.
Yes, you are correct and I am wrong. I made that correction in the comment with Jay. Thanks for pointing it out. I would just change it to make sure you if you ask for a double blind test, ask the people who have the expertise to do it.
"for those of you who dont believe in foreplay, and just want to jump into the action..." Thomas has good sense of humor, lol.
I wonder if he was speaking from experience?
I think 🤔 I will market Perfect Sound gold plated 💯 percent oxygen pure copper and vestigial silver speaker cables for $10K/ft, connectors are extra, of course.
Good luck!
Well said Thomas. I myself don't believe that cables make a difference. That's also why I really admire what Amir of ASR is doing. That being said I don't hate people that think they can hear a difference. Maybe there really is a difference but I think for the majority of CASUAL listeners like me won't even hear or notice if there really is a difference. That's why I myself just can't seem to understand why some people spend an enormous amount of money on cables. Which is most probably the reason why people who have the same opinion as me feel like these cable companies are just snake oil salesmen and just trying to fool consumers. Gene of Audioholics had a similar experience with Audioquest which gave him vague explanations. I know you feel that cables do make a difference and I respect that.
I myself wonder when these cable companies proudly say what their products are capable of but NEVER post their test results or measurements to prove their claims.
Forget Amir and forget Gene. Follow your own ears. Test good quality used cables in your system and decide by yourself. I did, with used cables, without knowing their exact models and price, and in my system, there was clearly a difference in sound. After several days I picked the one I liked the most. It was neither the cheapest nor the most expensive, but definitely better than my previous cables.
@@vmpty I'm into movies and not much music listening. Something like 95% I use my system for Home Theater. I just use good cables nothing exotic or outrageously expensive. I would rather spend it on gear than cables. I even listened and tried my friend's Mcintosh amp and tried to compare it to his Denon AVR and I couldn't tell any difference.
@@johnlim7720 if you do mostly home theater I fully understand what you mean. In my own HT setup I don't mind much about cables either.
1 dollar resistor on a cable hmmmm. On the bright side Great video Thomas
Great video on a sensitive and complex subject. You kept my attention to the end - which speaks volumes. Well expressed Thomas and clearly the distillation of much deep thought. ;¬) Thanks and greetings to you and yours.
Ok, enough with cables. I'm gonna talk about systems. I think it's a good idea to have two systems. Because even if it's really good there's a chance you're gonna get bored with it and require something different. Like eating chicken every night, ya gonna get sick of it eventually.
I still have my expensive (for my blue-collar ass anyway) Unison Research amp so I'm gonna keep it and buy a pair of SUPER efficient Zu Omen Dirty Weekend speakers to pair with it.
Thomas, you look so cold! Stop buying gear in the winter months and turn on the heat! Lol
Fellow Canadian Wayne here, from Vancouver!
I just need to turn on one of my tube amps :)
have fun has no science proof, if people believe pure science, this is not a hobby for them. I tried my $2k
power cable on my rice cooker, I believe it tastes better, that is fun😃
🤣🤣 Don't forget to do the double eating rice blind test with your family 😁😁
Science explains the observable and is simply our current best understanding, it is never truth. Measurements are of use only if we can measure what we are observing. Many audio designers will admit that several internal components are chosen by ear alone, as they can hear the difference despite not being able to measure where that observable difference comes from.
I am an engineer rooted in science, and trained in recording engineering. I want to tell you all cables sound the same as it seems to make sense and distances myself from the undoubted snake oil salesman. But I know from 40 years of experience that cables DO sound different and i have experienced this many times and confirmed with friends in blind tests, to my satisfaction at least. Id rather they didnt, as id rather not spend much, but im happy with my choices and i cannot ignore what I hear.
There are crooks out there looking for your money no question, but there are also cables that genuinely sound better, and fir me, thats a fact.
"In real life 95% of the audiophiles I meet can hear a difference with cables". I'm assuming you're just taking their word for this? Perhaps they truly BELIEVE they hear a difference? But do they REALLY? You say a double blind test, following the scientific method and removing the possibility of ego and appearance bias is the way to go, then you simply make an assertion about a huge majority of audiophiles in your orbit with no supporting evidence that I heard. I see this as a serious contradiction. The question will only be settled when double blind testing is done and we truly see if some can CONSISTENTLY identify a difference in sound between different speaker cables. Then we can begin the argument of whether those differences constitute actual improvements or not. Settling one debate will just bring on another- what fun!
This is THE best commentary on cables I have ever seen, read or watched! Very good!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Too bad most audiophiles are focused on expensive upgrades which provide infinitesimal or non-existent sound improvements, instead of just enjoying the music. That is why I would never label myself as an audiophile.
Agree in the sense we should just enjoy the music as priority and never lose focus of that.
If you place a resister in the signal path, of course it will make a difference in the sound. The amplifier will have to produce more voltage to overcome the resistance.
Was it in parallel, like just along side, what would that do?
Ah, the irony 😂😂
Producers of most 'popular' music albums, irrespective of genre, are guilty of maximally compressing their tracks for loudness.
Therefore they have very little, if any, dynamic range!
Totally smeared tracks right from the factory. The music starts at maximum loudness and just stays there!
And then they're ripped into mp3s or streamed. Sometimes on bluetooth.
On $10000 speakers.
In an untreated room.
$6000 cables are a perfect match for this category of "music".😱😂
Amir from ASR does not approve this video.
But I do, everything so well said, Thomas The Story Teller Stereo!
they are a joke...measurements are the only thing that matters !
@@Dobbs65 he knows very much about electrics but doesn't know much about how to listen
@@hudo there is no "special" way of listening. Either something makes a difference or it doesn't, and measurements and test prove that there is NO scientific or logical reason why 2 different cables that measure identical would sound different other than strong cognitive bias.
@@dakken74 so that's it, it has to be bias, it can't sound different because way its measured its absolutely perfect? Even if bunch of people hear the difference? Did you even watch this video, or ever tested any cable on half decent stereo system?
@@hudo yes I watched the whole video and found no compelling argument for why cables should sound different other than a "belief" that they would or a trying to dismiss the findings of actual electrical engineers by saying that measurements are not science.
for 1) your original premise (and the inferred conclusion) is fallacious.
there is an argument to be made that we still don't exactly know how all the measurements correlate with our perception of sound (i.e. psychoacoustics), but we can most certainly measure everything when it comes to audio, as in principle, on a fundamental level audio is quite simple. meaning that measurements are sufficient, because if all measurements (and i mean all... not just the on-axis FR, which is the only thing "measurement detractors" are apparently aware of, even though measurementS are a much MUCH broader set than that single one) are exactly the same (within variance), it WILL sound exactly the same. that, we know and is an established scientific fact and has been for decades. no need for blind testing as the measurements are the "test with experiment" in that case. it would be quite UNscientific to conduct a blind test in this case, actually
all kinds of measurements have already been done by multiple people, and the conclusions are always the same: there's either no measurable difference, or it's so minuscule it's beyond the realm of audibility for bats, let alone humans.
to reiterate: we CAN measure everything when it comes to audio, because it's simple (and that's why measurements matter), but we can't YET correlate everything we measure to what/how we hear (and that's why blind test research matters). meaning that if 2 things measure exactly the same, it's pointless (i.e. counter to the scientific method) to conduct further tests
meaning that according to the diagram in your video, you have failed already on the 2nd step, as you have not researched the topic area ;)
Did the blind test and couldn't hear much difference, I preferred A. Which means it's not worth for me to spend money on cables.
this was a real good explonation. i was always open mindet. but most people arent. i sad always to myself power cables doesnt matter at all...i tryied a view of them and dont heard any difference...until i got a nordost heimdall 2...awesome but the frey 2 was much better overall, especialy in the bass. but i realy had to try it and make my own experience. but i bet i will pass the blind test, cause its just to much that you dont hear it.
People,, stear clear of short cables. , they send the dynamics all weard.. They don't to let the cable do its job properly...
What conundrum? Cables make a small, tweak difference, once at a no bullshit level it's money down the drain. But you know what the first computer was called? The Difference Engine
The part of the conversation that is almost always missing is THE SYSTEM. The input makes no music. The preamp makes no music. The amp makes no music. The speakers make no music. Put them together and you have music. If you connect them with cables of some type. All the components have a signature sound according to the topology of the circuit. Resistors, capacitors, inductors and so on. Some of them work well with others but not all work great together. Cables also have resistance, capacitance and inductance. If you change those values in a piece of equipment it changes the sound. So if you add a cable you are changing the values of the entire musical system. Just because a listener can’t hear a difference doesn’t mean it’s not there. If you can’t fine. Those people can now decide how much they are willing to pay for the bling. You can still buy cables for bling. No shame there.
Audio cables will give you Sound stage instrument separation Death in your sound stage More extended Frequency response.
If this is not important to you Cables will not be important to you
I eat Butter Chicken with basmati rice while watching this! No need for a good wine or beer! Thanks Thomas!
I liked the Glas Bottle, can analogie the Most, because it comes to show what minor differences can determine if the human prefers one thing over the other, although at first the determining factor wouldn’t come to mind. Cheers.
Awesome vid I'm a cable believer Thomas thxxx
Not enough spice. Should have also included MQA in the video 😅.
Would be lovely if you could recommend me books/blogs on statistics (I like math in general).
OMG, there's a turntable on the shelf.....🤣
lol
Thomas will probably have grey hair very soon, too... haha
If you smoke some dope first, it' exaggerates the difference between cables, , easy peesey, debate over
I haven’t purchased any cables that cost significant money. I was given something called a MusicWave speaker cable to try out. These were priced from $450-$2000 US, based on gauge of your cable. The device attached to the end of my ordinary14 gauge wire. I wasn’t really given an explanation of what it was supposed to do, but for me I could not hear a enough difference to warrant the spend. I must add I’m well over 60 so my hearing will not be as good as a 30 yr old, just for example. I think that’s the bottom line for cables. Advantages Vs diminishing returns.
I believe even if you played 2 sources through 2 systems that are exactly the same, you'd get variance on the results. At the end of test, you can never get 2 people that hear the same. They may not care enough or know enough about what to listen for in the comparison. To general public, like for example, if you used my mom in the test - she'd say they both sound the same. She'd only be listening for lyrics, at a general level to recognize the song not for soundstage, transients, texture of the bass etc.. For that reason, I think for most people, cables don't matter - it'd be negligible. It makes a different for people who care and are wanting to squeeze that last 5% out of their gear. Other components for the $ probably have a greater impact on sound.
A man cannot cross the same river. He's not the same man. It's not the same river.
I myself have 5 pairs of different High-end speaker cables. I switch cables every now and then. Sometimes I hear a difference, but to what extent do I hear a difference. That cannot be explained. It is about hearing and how well you can listen at that moment, concentrated listening is never the same. Because we often feel different. That is the biggest link in High-end.
✌😉👌👍
If cables made a differences that you can hear, you should hear the difference ALL the time, not sometimes.
If you can only hear the difference sometimes, then the difference is YOU
@@crazyprayingmantis5596
That's true.
Cables have different properties, sure, (Some better some worse) but where would you honestly rank their contribution to 'good sound'? For me they rank way below room acoustics and speaker quality. To get more newcomers it would be awesome to see a video that does an honest ranking of what parts of a system/setup matter the most. Thanks for this video though. Take care.
Having 30 years of being an audiofile and hearing many cables, id say having a highend system makes a difference in cable sound.
Every single piece of reference audio gear ever built to this day is tuned by the ears of its creator in its final stages of r&d before they go off to production , cables , speakers , source components, amps , room, treatment , etc
In the professional audio / studio environnements , the benefits of high performance cables / internal wiring , got settled about 25 years ago ,
Yup, well you are an expert at this.
I work in the electronics industry, every engineer I talk to says "of course cables make a difference, but only to a point, so be careful". Difference doesn't always mean better either.
I'm assuming that's supposed to say "doesn't"
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 yep, typo
Wether or not someone can hear a difference depends on the person and the combination of equipment and cables. This is a completely different matter from wether there is a measurable difference. The physical fact is that no two different cables have the exact same electro-magnetic characteristics. The simple fact that electrical charge flows on the outside surface of a conductive material, not through it, more strands of wire in the same nominal gauge, will have more conductive surface area per unit length and therefore less impedance, given that the conductive materials used in either is the same. This does not imply whether or not you can hear a difference, but the difference is there. A smaller gauge wire of higher conductive quality may also outperform a larger gauge cable of lower grade conductive materials. Cable shielding and connectors also make a difference. Quality of the cable in both material and total surface area become more important as the current demand increases, because you are driving more coulombs from one point to the other. Over great distances (usually not a matter of concern with a home system), it becomes necessary to increase gauge (given same conductive material) in order to maintain power sent compared to power input, due to excessive losses which would otherwise occur using smaller gauge. These properties are true for speaker to amp cables and amp to device cables. So, yes, cable quality does matter and in some cases can be audibly sensed by some people with certain equipment combinations and at certain volume setting and in certain rooms (that's a lot of ands). For myself, I am glad that cable quality options exists as I can heard a significant difference on some of my systems by using more expensive cables. On other gear that I use in other rooms, I wouldn't bother with it because the equipment is only mid grade and I don't do critical listening in those rooms. Great topic, Thomas!
Thanks Taz! Great comment and in my second system, I use cheap cables too because I don't do critical listening.
Finally someone who thinks logically. Personally, I don’t use expensive cables because, at my budget, I think the money is better spent elsewhere. However, I always wonder how so many people can say they hear a difference in cables and other people absolutely dismiss those people’s opinions. The amount of distrust baffles me. I am yet to do a blind test on myself, and for that reason, I have no basis for a valid argument. One day I’d like to go to a high end shop and try out some cables for myself, but even then I’m not sure I could call the results accurate. I’d have to bring them home and listen long term like you mentioned.
Anyway, I always appreciate the approach you have on these topics. You clearly lay out your beliefs and give reasons for them. Even though I am almost completely a DIY guy, you are my favorite reviewer because of your way of thinking.
Lets put fidelity aside for a minute. People can spend their money on what ever they want and they should. But should these audio companies be aloud to sell cables or other audio gear that does NOT meet or exceed their marketing claims. Isn't this false advertising? Many things these companies claim CAN be tested and measured as Amir does over at AudioScienceReview. Many times they are not true, they do not meet the specs or perform certain atributes they claim. Weather or not you think the cables sounds better in your spacific system is subjective and up to you and your ears. Doesn't mean its gonna sound better to anyone or everyone else. I'm in the same boat as Gene at Audioholics, a lot of these audiophile products are more audio jewelry than anything but appearance is a big deal for some people and they will pay for it. Generally a fully transparent system that reproduces exactly what the source is would be considered the perfect system, BUT then there's personal preference and many people may not like this and thats fine. Whats best sounding will always be subjective and whats the most transparent and faithful to the source is more objective.
Sure, that is a completely different debate. It is a question of value and you added in do manufacturer live up to their claim. I personally never bother reading up on cable companies claim as I don't believe it myself. I would say forsure question the companies and spend what is reasonable on cables because it does make an audible difference. I always tell people to spend their money elsewhere.
time to get some popcorn and read the comments haha
The restaurant and ingredients comparison is incredibly misguided. With cables you're not measuring the "ingredients", you're measuring the actual dynamic behaviour of the cable under the same exact stimulus.
If a "taste machine" existed, and two dishes measured the exact same on it, then i'd argue you could make that case.
Exactly. It is a terrible analogy
I have to give it you Thomas, nobody ever mentions the scientific method when talking about measurements and science. I also studied science in University and applaud this video. Excellent video!
I talk about it all the time. I was starting to think I was crazy, because you're right. No one ever mentions it. And out of nowhere, Thomas comes and saves the day.
So in short...let's call NASA 🤣 I've said this many times in the past and I'll say it again: It's all about what's important to you. I personally believe different cables produce different sounds, but I'm not interested enough in that area of my system to care. The difference is typically miniscule to me. I do know what bad cables sound like and if they are poorly made or damaged, get rid of them.
As I always said, I personally hear a difference. I totally agree it depends on your system. Some cables will not manifest a difference from one to another because of your components. Thomas you know this is a very gutsy and explanation. I'm not going to name any names of youtube channels but I could guarantee as he views this video, he will be fixing his glasses and rubbing the rest of his hair. You my friend Thomas remind me of one thing my dad told me as a teenager; 'it doesn't matter if someone speaks bad or good about you, the important thing is that you are always the topic of the conversation.'😉
Congrats Thomas, this is simply fantastic.
So that goes both ways I guess. For both Thomas and Gene. They both are the topic of your comment.
@@Yiannis2112 who knows? 😉😂
The pic of the network shows a resistor and a poly styrene cap. The wires look intact yet slit open so we have an RC network connected in parallel to the normal conductors. This is called 'terminating' the cable and is more typically done in the electronics, for example the 75 ohm resistor terminating a SPDIF cable just beyond the jack on a DAC. Speaker cables are not radio frequency transmission lines like video coax or ethernet twisted pairs so here a guess would be the RC network rolls off above audio frequencies noise which potentially makes the amplifier's feedback network more stable.
Oh, thanks for explaining, I have no idea.
Thomas... EXACTLY. YOU SAID IT PERFECTLY. And yet, many will still not get it.
GREAT VIDEO THOMAS! I really like your presentation and argumentation. I am a physicist (with specialities in solid state and acoustics) - and we are very used to the idea that 1) we don't know everything and 2) if the observations don't match the measurements, then *it's clear that the model we are using is inadequate* That is the history of physics!
Cables may measure identically with the limited measurements we make but obviously *something we don't yet know about* is making the difference we experience. I really liked your hamburger analogy.
And I don't agree with the people (eg. Amir "science=measurements" Audio Science Review) who perpetuate the falsehood "no measurement difference on this 1kHz sinewave or frequency sweep means no difference in sound". I know psychoacousitics is also a factor, and also here we also don't know very much.
Personally I do think that there are significant effects independent of my brain's processing that are causing audible differences (remember when we switched to Teflon dielectrics?!) which have to do with electron flow, crystal boundaries, skin effect, relative phase of different frequencies, dielectric behaviour, and more as well as inductance, resistance and capacitance. Thank you for making this video and your quiet reasoning was very enjoyable. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
Finally a great explanation for all those know-it-all‘s „with engineering background“ 👍🏼. LOL
Glad you enjoyed it!
But now I will of course watch your videos.😉
I also have degrees in both science and math (also mostly stats).
I un-subbed from audioscience dude because he is not doing science, just taking measurements and then making unfounded statements about them.
You are spot on!
I bought one of the USB headphone dongles that recommended highly by ASR and it sounded really really sterile and fatiguing. I compared with my 2018 MacBook's headphone jack and my iPod nano 3rd gen., they both sounded more natural than the USB dongle ranked very high by ASR. I guess the lesson that I learned is that something measure good doesn't necessary sound good musically.
My Nordost don't need a box to "sound" marvelous.
Well, that 50 % of people say it hears differences shows me nothing, the 50/50 opinion is the normal state of humanity in all areas. To me the interesting data would be a hi-fi youtube reviewer (yourself, for instance) getting 10 out of 10 in ABx test with matched levels.
Correct, it is statistically inconclusive and the test would need to be repeated multiple time. I would do it until I find a system that will sound different enough that it will pass the 80% barrier. I still put up the results because I did not want to hide anything as my true goal is not to convince anyone to believe in cables but just have a simple discussion.
I was actually surprised to be able to hear a difference between two sets of speaker cables, something I never thought possible.
And you with most certainty didn't hear it this time either. James Randy has 10 000 dollars waiting for you if you pass a double blind test and hear a difference between two cables. Go grab it...
I paid over 10.000 Dollar on cables by Stealth and Nordost,im i crazy...?I hear a difference,if you believe in cables go for it,if you think no this is wrong just leave it,everybody happy!
I have been doing this a good 50 years now. The last 30 in a dedicated room with some pretty nice gear that has only gotten better and better. In all that time I have never once felt the need to double-blind anything. If I hear no difference I hear no difference and away it goes, whatever it is. If I do hear a difference and it is better then and only then does it stay. Been doing this with an incredible long list of things, many of which will have eyes rolling big time. But here is the thing. Often times when people come over I will change something, and my favorite is to do it while they are listening. Take the cable elevators off and lay them on the floor. Put something under a component so the spring isolation no longer works. Turn the Active Shielding off, or remove or change a tuning bullet. All kinds of different things like that. And you know what? Every single time they hear it. Every single time! This has been going on for so long now, it hasn't been since the freaking 1990's there was any doubt. Maybe some day these laggards will catch up with where real audiophiles were 30 years ago. All they really have to do is go and listen. They will see. There should no longer be any doubt. All the same, thanks for patiently explaining.
I do the same thing. My favorite was when I tried a new set of interconnects. My wife came in from another room to ask "What's wrong with the stereo?" Those cables went back.
@@charlesgrubbs2101 I use the same indicator. Except my review reading must be better, because mine more often than not hears the improvement without even coming into the room.
I have noticed that some of the same people that complain that cables have no influence are the same people that complain about Klipsch using cheap crossover components. I think that any changes made to "the system" can have an influence to some degree whether it is an audio system, a production system or an ecosystem. I am not a fan of price gouging but I have a perfect solution for that I don't buy it!
Great video man!
1. Human ear is not a great measuring instrument.
2. Human ability to hear certain frequencies downgrade with age.
3. 20-20000 Hz nothing less nothing more. Old audiophiles lose high frequencies first. That's how human ears work there's no debate here. It's biology so all those high res, high frequency tweeters and airy notes is bs.
4. Human can't hear subsonic frequencies but we can feel it you can read about lowest sang note by human.
5. To a certain price point of equipment people can't tell difference between mp3 and lossless.
6. Most people listen in untreated room. Room acoustic treatment is the biggest audible difference that 99% people can hear.
7. Talking about audible difference in average living room is bs.
I like how your points are nicely laid out and respectful, thanks for commenting.
What does it means to fall in love...Please let's have us measurements and double blind testing to prove that love is really there and that it exist in you. We need scientific testing or else we cannot believe in love. When it comes to love, nobody questions the validity of its effects, no one is asking for a scientific proof Why? Because human beings experience every single aspect of their lives through visceral feelings, there is not other way. Those who need measurable data are using the knowledge of that data to capture a feeling, a perception within themselves in order to have the awareness of the thing. Without a body no perceptions can be acquired. The entire body is an antenna capturing data in order to be aware of life being experienced. Not just the ears, every cell in the body participates. Hope this helps.
as someone who listens in a untreated room, it is already quite tough to tell 2 class D amps apart, cables would probably be impossible, if you are a quite skilled listener and in a treated room then maybe? But then again if the change is audible one should be able to measure the diffrence between same gauge copper cable and a high-end cable (same room, same signal chain ...etc) i would be interested in seeing that mesurement, because if it is at least different i would be willing to give it the benefit of the doubt
@@Yellowcake238 If you serious about listening and hi end audio dedicated listening room is a must have. You can talk about science in cable debate and go nowhere.
Room acoustic is a different story. It's real science and the difference is clearly audible for most people.
That the audiophile blueprint:
1. Listening room/ acoustic treatment.
2. Speakers
3. Amplifier
4. Everything else
@@thruthspeaker2476 Oh im not aguing, quite the contrary i completly agree with you and your statements, a dedicated listening room would be awesome, however i can already barely move in my apartement as is because it's that cramped, hopefully i find a better place soon
I'm late to the party here but that photo is blowing my mind. What a lot of people are missing is that there is also a capacitor in there, a little polystyrene item (the silver foil in a clear body at the top) It's likely wired in parallel (or maybe in series?) with that Vishay resistor to make an RC filter. You can see where they were soldered together with the blob on the resistor lead. What does that do? It's a noise filter to get rid of high frequency interference. One you can make for like 50 cents. Maybe 5$ if you use the same parts you see in the photo. If you search for RC filters on speaker cables you'll see it's not a new idea.
It's for people who fail to understand that audio works orders of magnitude smaller frequencies than radio frequencies. And some possible trace elements of radio frequencies are totally negated by the crude crossover network / dynamic drivers. It's like claiming a jumping mouse is causing a pyramid to shake.
But I thought people with very colored systems (tube amps, etc) love love love talking about enormous differences with cables. But here you are saying you need a very neutral, clear, basically solid state system to hear a difference with cables.
More neutral-sounding systems are easier to hear a difference. Just like more revealing systems are easier but it does not imply you cannot hear a difference with non-revealing systems. Also, some systems are very color while others are not. So once again, just because you can hear a difference in more neutral systems easier does not imply you cannot hear a difference with color systems. However, some systems will be so colored or not revealing enough that you cannot. Audio is not either or.
@@ThomasAndStereo got it. Thanks Thomas! Btw I have an isolation transformer on the way. Trying different paths.
@@Audfile Cool cool, let me know!
I personally know that cables do make a difference. I just find that the cost equations are absurd.
Is that white and silver thing a capacitor as well? I can't tell if it is a capacitor or a lump of heat shrink. If so, then they are creating a filter to alter the sound. Tsk, tsk. Don't mess with my sound! :)
In a lot of the blind tests, the subjects are asked to identify the differences, no matter how subtle it is. A or B, which one is better. At some point, the differences may be so minor, that it does not matter. Enjoy the music, not chasing the cables/equipment that make a difference that you won't notice 99% of the time.
You will notice cables and interconnects 100% of the time not 1% of the time. It's very easy to go look up a AB comparison on pursue perfect system or jays TH-cam channels for hear it along with The thousands of people who say it is night and day.
@@redleather420 moon audio dragon cables for headphones gave me more than the stock cables.
@@redleather420 Yes. If we are comparing a $6 cable and a $300 cable, there would be obvious differences. What about between $300 and $1,000 cable? The difference may not be so obvious. It would be interesting if someone conduct a test, asking the subjects the difference between "two different cables" but indeed they are one and the same. Just a thought.
@@tw9668 I've seen plenty of tests at least on scientifically most people seem to show quite a large difference even as the price keeps going up but that is on 50 to $200,000 systems so maybe not on your average system or maybe the cables are just amazing and very rare or something
One track of the blind test should be three trials of listening the same cable, I bet the results will be interesting.
But you should tell people that ie. second demo is a fancy 6000$ cable :)
Cables are part of the system. I use the right cable to make better sound. Not necessary expensive.
Thomas it’s funny you mentioned NASA looking at cables, Nordost started out as a manufacturer for NASA as a contracter, their flatline gold cable was used for long runs in NASA ships because it didn’t drop resistance. They also told me they developed Odin in conjunction with IBM for government super computer clusters. So there are actual cable companies that do scientific contracting. I believe analysis plus does as well.
Oh interesting. I did not know they provided cables for such high profile companies.
This is the best explanation but you won't change those people.
Which ones?
All he did was give an opinion, there is no science or test to back it up.
Well, the real answer is that cables CAN matter. For a system in the ideal situation, with no noise or power disruption of any kind, the cheapest junk cables will be totally fine. The majority of systems will not be in that ideal situation, but the noise on those cables will be so minimal it won't make a difference, or a difference so minor it's barely worth going beyond a basic, well made cable. I'd personally doubt whether any system that would significantly benefit from top end cables wouldn't be better relocated to another room with a better situation or some other far cheaper solution.
Thomas, simply thank you. This is awesome & insightful. Love your passion that pores out in each video.
I live in Sri Lanka & the only proper brands we have access to is Yamaha & Qacoustics. So I got myself a Yamaha RX-V6A & Q3030i & boy I am in love.
Since I got the duo in Feb 2021, I always wondered if better cables would sparkle the music more. Finally I am content. Thank you!
I think you might be able to get a bit more sparkle with different speaker cables. I remember the Q3000 series tweeter is not very sharp. However, I would advise you to spend the money elsewhere. For example, wait for my topping Pre90 preamp review.
The buyers should not be the ones testing, the companies and sellers should have done the testing & science behind their claims on what the cable does. Don’t understand how it can be legal to clam all sorts of diffuse nonsense without any data to back it up and then sell for 10’s of thousands.
Oh this is going to be good!
Let me know what you think once you are done!
@@ThomasAndStereo Love it! I much like you try to remain open minded. On my own systems I do not hear much difference in cables but on others systems I have noticed. In one of your tests I heard one that was bright and one that was warm. For me the bright was too much but the warm was almost muddied by warmth. I would want something in between. I have seen a few cable videos with measurements like Gene's which were pretty good.
All being sIaid if someone likes their cables great! Everyone should do what pleases them and no one should put someone down for it. I have a fairly budget system compared to many so I may not get the benefits of high end cables where others would.
@@scottyo64 The only way you’ll find out is to try some different cables.
@@Audiofreak71 I have 6 sets from Kimber, Audioquest etc. Etc. Change out with my 10 gauge ofc and it sounds the same on my system. The set I currently use I like the looks so they became keepers.
@@scottyo64 Have you ever tried OCC7N copper on your system?
Gene just received a smackdown at warp speed ;)
That's laughable, Gene has a degree in electrical engineerings does actual measurements and publishes them.
but he doesn’t work for Nasa ;)
I used some 8" drivers for a year or so and pulled them out of the box and hand pumped them and it was easy. I hand pumped the exact same brand new diver and it was as stiff as shit. Objective evidence that there is something in breaking in speakers.
Hey Thomas, fantastic video. That was a very well thought out explanation that makes a lot of sense. Some folks think the observation portion of the scientific method is the 'subjective' portion (not I). I'm a fan of the (true) scientific method. Thanks again
This is pretty funny I've got to say.
So you guys fully admit there are no measurement differences between cables, but say that it's just because we don't have a full scientific understanding of why there is a difference.
So let me ask you this. How on earth are these speaker cable companies designing their cables? If they don't understand the science of what makes a cable sound better or have any system of objectively measuring the improvements of their cables in on earth do they work out how to build better cables?
It's up to the people who actually believe there is a difference to prove that they can hear it in a double blind trial. Since a double blind trial cannot overcome a predisposed bias to the idea that there is no difference. But they don't, cable manufacturers don't do it, hifi shops that make a lot of money from expensive cables don't do it. Why not?
Well the measurement part is based on what I see on youtube and I have no reason to not believe them. To deny their findings makes no sense for me. How do speaker cables company design cables without science? With their ear perhaps? I guess you don't need to know all the science behind baking a cake to bake a cake? I know people who make cables for fun and they simply experiment and listen instead of measuring it. Now, forget everyone in the universe needing to do a double blind test, it makes no difference to you, what is important is at least you should just go try it for yourself before forming a definite conclusion by relying on what you see on the internet that happens to agree with you.
@@ThomasAndStereo To go to your food from a restaurant analogy we have tested things like that. If you tell people their food is expensive and they eat it in fancy surroundings people report the food tasting nicer than an identical meal they are told is cheap.
So like I said, I already don't believe that speaker cables will make any difference. My personal biases will dwarf any effect that the cables may or may not have. Im perfectly ready to admit that because I understand that I'm just a human and my perception of audio is effected significantly by a lot of things, my state of mind, mood, how much noise I've been subjected to earlier in the day and what my expectations of the system I am listening to is.
This is something the cables makes a difference crowd don't really seem to mention at all.
Now my personal biases would probably change if a cable company were to do a reasonably large scale double blind testing experiment. Perhaps they could do it at an audio hifi show, I'm sure they could get hundreds of willing audiophiles to partake in it for free.