@Jingle Nuts Oh, Gene and his massive measurement rig are being sued by Synergetic Research because of the snake oil accusations against the company. This has became an epic dispute with. True story! You can follow it in a FB group called Real Audiophiles
@@TombstoneTube DellaSella does a great dis-service to the hobby both 2 channel audio or high end home theatre. Gene is no benefactor to the industry except make nothing but accusations. Good on Denney to go after that guy. Dellasella did this to himself.
My goodness you’re a brave man to take on not just cables but the measurement arguments. I think you nailed it. Sensible, intelligent and informed. Bravo.
Yes it was a great video and just to state my my opinion The only people who think cables don't matter are people who either can't afford it or have never heard it. Some guy showing you a measurement doesn't tell you anything about anything :-)
@@khoi83 they show you if something is broken or not that's it. ASR just measured a cable and said look it didn't change the frequency response or distortion therefore all cables are fake snake oil. I mean you would think these science people would be the intelligent ones but they do science worse than a second grader.
I started reading the comments and instantly hit the tired old “If you can’t hear a difference, then you’re too poor...’ comment which Thomas already blew a hole through: that you could have a colored system (expensive or no) and it could be extremely hard to tell any difference. Similarly, how many of us have played our systems proudly for non-audiophiles, convinced that it was going to change their lives and all you get was a “Yeah, it sounds OK, I guess. My Bose Wave radio sounds good, too”.
2 things: 1.) A $12 Belkin Gold cable from sounds significantly better than a generic OEM/Office Depot cable off the shelf for about the same price. No, it’s not because the USB plugs are gold plated (gold isn’t a great conductor, but it doesn’t rust easily), it’s because of the stuff inside. So, you don’t have to be rich enough. 2. I’m an absolute novice when it comes to wine tasting. Sure, I’ve heard of the terms “Dry” or “nutty,” but I don’t know what a “dry” liquid tastes like, and even though I’m 34 I can’t say I’ve had a wine that reminds me of cashews or walnuts. With headphones, Ten years ago, I could hear stuff like “more bass” or “muffled” because I had plenty of life experience about such things, but I had no idea what “digital hash,” “modal distortion,” or even what a 1 kHz tone was. Yep, there is surely placebo where you think you’ll hear something because someone said you should, but a trained ear is also better at separating the wheat from the chaff. 🌾 When it comes to cables, I was a non-believer, shorter or more ergonomic was ok, and someone else can buy a pretty cable but it wasn’t for me. I even had a company proudly let me compare their cable vs stock, and tell me it should be obvious the difference, but I just could not. That all changed for me when a friend brought a $650 cable over for my HD 800. I was utterly shocked how much clearer and fuller everything was... the HD 800 wasn’t experiencing a frequency shift, it just sounded like I was hearing _more,_ and the change in transparency and clarity was bigger and more noticeable than many DAC changes. They were ready to help me do blind A/B comparisons, but the first time going from stock to the 3rd party cable was not subtle and, for me, well outside the realm of placebo. I can understand not wanting clearer headphones though. “Demons” by Imagine Dragons has AWFUL drums, super distorted and digitally mangled no matter if it’s from a DSD file or a Spotify Stream. But you can’t tell as easily on a Bose wave radio, and two days ago when I heard it at the grocery store the ceiling speakers couldn’t make the drums be audible at all. My mom also prefers the softness of a blurry distorted Bose wave radio, because she just likes a little relaxing melody while eating dinner or teaching yoga... she prefers instrumental music, so it’s actually better for her if lyrics are unintelligible. There’s all kinds of audiophiles out there, and I won’t say someone else is wrong for seeking a certain kind of signature.
Great video, I really don't know why some people get so angry regardless of which side of the fence they sit on. If you think that expensive cables make a difference then buy them, if you don't, then buy cheap ones. Either way, be happy and respect other people's views and most importantly, enjoy the music!
people get angry because companies are selling 12,000 $ a/c power cords to gullable people. those of us that have comon sense know its wrong and are trying to educate these people.
@@gasandbatteries9833 why the anger though?for some people who have that kind of money to spend, it would probably equate getting an Armani suit and putting on a cheap Old Navy belt instead of a Gucci one.🤷🏻♂️
@@ThomasAndStereo Hi Thomas, congratulations on presenting this hi-fi edu! Excellent from start to finish. Okay, so what is a reasonable price for an I.C., power cord, coax, etc? From my experiences and my budget, $300 is the absolute max and closer to $200 is what I prefer to max out at most of the time. Now on a related topic, I have also discovered pleasing results using Toslink/Optical cable and it's much, much, more affordable than coax or I.C's. If I find the optical cable to my liking and affordable then the $ saved with the optical allows me to consider a tad more refined power cord or speaker wire. Anyway, do you A/B any optical-vs- coax or optical-vs- I.C.? Thank you Thomas.
@@nycbass78 well there is more to it than just that. cables are a con job. false advertising. no proof. no blind tests. alot like the junk sold on infomercials. alot like churches on tv that steal money from sheeple. hate to see it happen and things are getting done about it. Amir from audio science reveiw is one of the people doing something about it.
If you have difficulty figuring out if a product improves the sound, save your money. Use it to buy products that make a big difference. For the ultra high end and people with money to burn, small differences may be all you can get.
that’s what I thought when I spend over 1K on power cord. I know the actual material cost is probably like 20 bucks but I just can’t deny the change in sound quality.
@@buttonman1831 Precisely, if you have a mediocre system, putting high end cables/interconnects in the mix will not yield any "substantial" improvements.
Congratulations Thomas, this is the most concise, most relevant video on the nature of double-blind tests for audiophiles! I am adding it to my playlist of recommended videos for audiophile education. :)
I loved the 1st statement, if no scientific proof is provided, yet, there is and has been continual scientific proof for decades. It was a touchy debate in the 90's. And still today qualified technicians who's jobs are cables provide real world facts, data and measurements regarding cables. you only have to look at ASR as one example. Here is a reality. The cables that musicians use, and that the highest end mastering studios use, and everything in between, are simple low cost properly made cables that do what is required. So, if one cable reveals detail on a recording, then the fact is, that the cables used in that recording, were of a construction to get that detail onto the recording. If it wasnt good enough, $100'000 cables would NOT be able to resolve that detail, information and resolution. It has to be on the recording, the cable CANNOT add information, nuance, and any other nonsense onto that recording during playback. Therefore there is no argument. Psycho Acoustics, peer pressure, and looks, play more of a part than anything else, hence why we had fat cables produce more base, silver cables are more detailed, short cables have faster transients, everything to do with looks. Places like ASR do measurements, some of the most neutral equipment on the planet to the point they can measure the difference in a phono plug and Speakon vs binding posts. Benchmark advocate the same cables proffesional studio's use, PMC used to use Van Damme. If the best albums on the planet this whole century have been recorded in studio's where electrical and recording engineers have put together the studios, equipment and cabling, and they use cables that audiophiles do not like, Van Damme, Canare, Beldin, as examples, just what do you think your hearing? The real issue is simply that the majority of hifi equipment, is coloured, and poorly engineered, from mid to high end, we have a market where an integrated amp will clip at two differenmt levels due to two different cables with different manufacturing methods. So wow, there is a difference, except, how are they accurate, when 12 awg OFC copper had the exact LCR values to not affect the transparency and content. Well because we all want the one that cost money to be different. Its why some companies make cables, and when I say make cables, they buy cheap wiring from companies and rebrand or redress it, a well known manufacturer bough Coax from RS components, at pence per meter, and made £1400 cables from it, with banana plugs that simply bent due to the weight, it was paired and sheilded with nice alloy clamps and nylon mesh, magazines and fans revelled in it, until disgruntled staff put up the part number and DIY guys made it themselves for a while. Another company bought $20 banana plugs, and used twin runs of Marine battery cable 6awg OFC copper in dual sheilding, costing around $10 for 10m to make £900 speaker cables. That is the reality of cables, overpriced crap. And your playing albums that were mastered from mic to desk with cables that cost a couple of bucks per meter. Meaning all your hearing is what a couple of bucks of cable produced. Sorry but if you say a $5 cable lacks the resolution of a $2500 cable, all that magic on the recording got there on a cheap cable, ASR showed how $2500 Audioquests cable measured up against a $2 cable, no difference, they measured Transparent cables with their batteries, shock horror, the information is there. The reality is, there is nothing but magic and delusion in the cable illusion.
Hey Thomas. Great video. I totally agree that you shouldn't ask someone let alone a youtuber to do a blind AB test or a double blind. Not because they are not qualified like you said but because of the "cost" - some are, just like me from a background of doing such tests and it is not hard to learn about a true double blind test if one is serious about learning about it (especially in the modern day of information, it is no unicorn) But the cost and complication that goes into it is something that people often do not consider.
Yes, that is wrong of me to say that all TH-camrs are not qualified. Anyone who understands the scientific method and understands what are the possible factors that can influence the outcome of a test is qualified.
Not until they go to an audiologist and have their hearing checked. Like the guy who ran the ls3/5a shootout at ls35a.com did. He gets an A++ for honesty.
well, u know there are people out there that if they were condemned to die, standing @th gallows in front of th hangman, would start an argument over which type of rope was best!😅 I'm afraid that type of personality is plentiful in th audiophile community
Best arguments I heard about measurements and the cable debate. I have a method for upgrading cables. My dealer recommends several used cables from his stock, without him telling me the prices, I bring them home and test them with my system for several days until I decide which one I like the best. When I tell him my decision frequently it was neither the cheapest or the most expensive one that I picked.
If you apart from the scientific method add a couple of university points in psychology regarding cognitive biases, projection and placebo effects you will come to understand much about high-end audio. Someone who's just dropped 5k on a cable is very inclined to hear some kind of change which they then will want to interpret as "better".
I would not disagree with you there that what you said is possibly true, we just need to do the double blind test to confirm first. Then we come up with possible different reasons why that is true. Is it placebo? Or is it true there is a difference.
The pic of the network shows a resistor and a poly styrene cap. The wires look intact yet slit open so we have an RC network connected in parallel to the normal conductors. This is called 'terminating' the cable and is more typically done in the electronics, for example the 75 ohm resistor terminating a SPDIF cable just beyond the jack on a DAC. Speaker cables are not radio frequency transmission lines like video coax or ethernet twisted pairs so here a guess would be the RC network rolls off above audio frequencies noise which potentially makes the amplifier's feedback network more stable.
Finally someone who thinks logically. Personally, I don’t use expensive cables because, at my budget, I think the money is better spent elsewhere. However, I always wonder how so many people can say they hear a difference in cables and other people absolutely dismiss those people’s opinions. The amount of distrust baffles me. I am yet to do a blind test on myself, and for that reason, I have no basis for a valid argument. One day I’d like to go to a high end shop and try out some cables for myself, but even then I’m not sure I could call the results accurate. I’d have to bring them home and listen long term like you mentioned. Anyway, I always appreciate the approach you have on these topics. You clearly lay out your beliefs and give reasons for them. Even though I am almost completely a DIY guy, you are my favorite reviewer because of your way of thinking.
This is perfectly stated, cables absolutely matter but it takes time and experience to listen and learn. My best advise to those starting out in this hobby is to buy used, research and read all you can.
Perhaps your most compelling video. Very well articulated. Bravo! IMO, audiophiles would be well served to listen with an open mind and to keep their minds open. FWIW, I’m confident that I’ve heard cable differences, but not in every instance.
Thanks again for this video addressing tricky issue. There is something that also can make a difference in cables difference audition : the room. I experienced myself two different rooms when I changed home. The first one was acoustically very poor, high reflexion, hard floor.. and cables change was spectacular. Now I am in a better room and some changes are more difficult to assess. I am testing 5 different speakers cable and it is not easy to discriminate even if some differences are audible.
And you with most certainty didn't hear it this time either. James Randy has 10 000 dollars waiting for you if you pass a double blind test and hear a difference between two cables. Go grab it...
Here is my largest concern with this debate... I have a decent and transparent system... yet every time I sit down and listen it never sounds exactly the same, even though I am using the exact same equipment, listening position, and music. Some days I am so impressed with the sound, other times I don't like what I'm hearing. So for me it becomes hard for me to fully trust my own ears. I need to listen for many sessions and assess over a period of time... which makes judging minor differences from cables just that much more unreliable.
Amir, as a audiophile for almost 50 years I've experienced similar phenomenon with my modest yet transparent system. I've come to the conclusion that there are many other variables which can influence all of this. For example, voltage fluctuation and noise in the AC Mains, room temperature, relative humidity, (important for speakers,) warm-up of the equipment, break-in routine, night or day, listening with eyes shut or eyes open, (don't laugh there's a perception acuity issue here which exists,) etc. I suspect that if you can minimize these variables that you too would begin to also hear minor differences in cables. I belong to the camp that cables do indeed perform and sound different just like all other "components" in your system. Basic electrical measurements are very helpful indicators IMHO (LCR) regarding what to possibly expect however at the end of the day it all comes down to achieving synergy with your other components even in support of any individual listening preferences. For what's it worth, my financial investment in cables translates to ~ 7-8% of the $ value of my entire system when it was originally purchased. Significant but not ridiculous.
Amir - trust your ears, I've been at this for 40 years and the same goes with my different systems. Read Alan's comment below (or above) - therein lies the answers to the nightly sound fluctuations. Cheers!
Audio is a hardware journey where the destination is the same, but people spend so much time arguing about the journey. What does it matter if people are spending too much as long as they enjoyed their journey - same destination
True, what other people do is their own business. Just enjoy the music. Some people are so worried about how their gear is set up that they don't listen/enjoy the music. Don't listen to your gear folks, listen to and enjoy the music!
I think the issue comes about when the people who hear the difference try to put down those who can't, or can't afford to buy better gear, which is where the measurement people try to intervene, try to be saviours and say its ok to have cheap cables because more expensive ones aren't better in any terms (at least as long as they measure about the same or within a certain threshold). I think many modern reviewers try to act as peaceful moderators, and tell the people who can't afford expensive cables, that its not that big of an issue.
Thomas. Ure argumenting and summoning up, around this subject. Is the absolute best Ive heard. Not only cause ive come to the same conclusions. But cause you (oposite me) are skilled to put it in to understandable words and a good conclusion. Great chanel great humble personality. Thankyou. / J
I have to give it you Thomas, nobody ever mentions the scientific method when talking about measurements and science. I also studied science in University and applaud this video. Excellent video!
I talk about it all the time. I was starting to think I was crazy, because you're right. No one ever mentions it. And out of nowhere, Thomas comes and saves the day.
As I always said, I personally hear a difference. I totally agree it depends on your system. Some cables will not manifest a difference from one to another because of your components. Thomas you know this is a very gutsy and explanation. I'm not going to name any names of youtube channels but I could guarantee as he views this video, he will be fixing his glasses and rubbing the rest of his hair. You my friend Thomas remind me of one thing my dad told me as a teenager; 'it doesn't matter if someone speaks bad or good about you, the important thing is that you are always the topic of the conversation.'😉 Congrats Thomas, this is simply fantastic.
I have. a degree in physics, worked in academia for a while. I think that it's only folk who haven't worked in science who act religious about measurements. I use statistics every day in my job. When I come home i enjoy listening to my musical, distorted tube amp with big horn speakers - because they sound great.
I might modify that; engineers rather than scientists I have found most unpersuadable on cables. The actual scientists generally take the scientific approach whereas engineers rely on 'established' dogma.
@@turiddu9 Engineers are generally very practical people and also reliant on their equipment and calculations. If the machine tells them that the resistance and capacitance of the wire are the same, then of course you can't hear a difference. The concept that sound is interpreted somewhat subjectively by people or that there may be some aspect of sound reproduction not captured in basic measurements escapes them.
@@jefft275 If its not captured in basic measurements feel free to suggest what kind of measurements should be used. In fact maybe the cable manufacturers could tell us what measurements they use to evaluate their cable designs?
@@turiddu9 engineering is inherently an unthinking field. They believe in the "good enough" approach for every component in the chain, and believe making components better than they need to be makes no difference.
@@ThomasAndStereo Do you think cable manufacturers know why cables make a difference? Or are they keeping that information to themselves? Logic dictates that they should know but of course there are exceptions...what do you think Thomas?
I liked the Glas Bottle, can analogie the Most, because it comes to show what minor differences can determine if the human prefers one thing over the other, although at first the determining factor wouldn’t come to mind. Cheers.
GREAT VIDEO THOMAS! I really like your presentation and argumentation. I am a physicist (with specialities in solid state and acoustics) - and we are very used to the idea that 1) we don't know everything and 2) if the observations don't match the measurements, then *it's clear that the model we are using is inadequate* That is the history of physics! Cables may measure identically with the limited measurements we make but obviously *something we don't yet know about* is making the difference we experience. I really liked your hamburger analogy. And I don't agree with the people (eg. Amir "science=measurements" Audio Science Review) who perpetuate the falsehood "no measurement difference on this 1kHz sinewave or frequency sweep means no difference in sound". I know psychoacousitics is also a factor, and also here we also don't know very much. Personally I do think that there are significant effects independent of my brain's processing that are causing audible differences (remember when we switched to Teflon dielectrics?!) which have to do with electron flow, crystal boundaries, skin effect, relative phase of different frequencies, dielectric behaviour, and more as well as inductance, resistance and capacitance. Thank you for making this video and your quiet reasoning was very enjoyable. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
Every single piece of reference audio gear ever built to this day is tuned by the ears of its creator in its final stages of r&d before they go off to production , cables , speakers , source components, amps , room, treatment , etc In the professional audio / studio environnements , the benefits of high performance cables / internal wiring , got settled about 25 years ago ,
I respectfully submit to you that an accurate blind test is not expensive to conduct. One does not need to live with a cable for months to notice a difference. All that is needed for an accurate blind test are the following: 1) A space, doesn't even have to be sound treated 2) A panel of volunteer test subjects 3) HiFi audio equipments 4) The cables to be blind tested.
This is precisely why the Molingordo/Matrix Hifi tests done in Spain a few years ago are so interesting. They were done in a very amiable, controlled setting, by audiophiles themselves with no agenda whatsoever and with exquisite etiquette. The results are there for anyone to explore.
@@robertocalvo934 I saw it and I would have changed certain things because I have an issue with some of their criteria. For example, they asked people to choose the 'best' system, well best is different for different people so are they testing the system or are they testing people's taste? I can go on and on but you get my point.
@@ThomasAndStereo I think your are mistaken. At least in the first meetings the ABx test was : can you tell apart one system(10.000 euros) from another (700 euros). They weren't asking subjective questions but rather can you tell me which one is A and B, which they couldn't (it seems that when you match sounds levels things get knotty )
@@robertocalvo934 Well at the bottom, it is written at the bottom of the page "Well, to avoid being subject of such arguments, we have gone from the usual DBT questioning "wich is the one"? to "wich one you like best"? This should eliminate the pressure that so often is called upon to demerit the use of DBT's, furthermore, on this occasion there were not preagreed a max listening time, and each listener/tester could use the music of his choice."
There are at least two integral part of science here as well: empirical evidence and replication of studies. Both are present in cables: there are overwhelming reports of empirical evidence showing results in sound differences between cables, and those differences are replicated (and confirmed) by multiples sources in different parts of the world; therefore those differences reasonably exist. If measurement can’t explain those differences, then we at least know that at the moment the measurement technology is not able to explain the phenomenon. Thank you Thomas for this wonderful opportunity to discuss the topic 🔥❤️.
Well said Thomas. I myself don't believe that cables make a difference. That's also why I really admire what Amir of ASR is doing. That being said I don't hate people that think they can hear a difference. Maybe there really is a difference but I think for the majority of CASUAL listeners like me won't even hear or notice if there really is a difference. That's why I myself just can't seem to understand why some people spend an enormous amount of money on cables. Which is most probably the reason why people who have the same opinion as me feel like these cable companies are just snake oil salesmen and just trying to fool consumers. Gene of Audioholics had a similar experience with Audioquest which gave him vague explanations. I know you feel that cables do make a difference and I respect that.
I myself wonder when these cable companies proudly say what their products are capable of but NEVER post their test results or measurements to prove their claims.
Forget Amir and forget Gene. Follow your own ears. Test good quality used cables in your system and decide by yourself. I did, with used cables, without knowing their exact models and price, and in my system, there was clearly a difference in sound. After several days I picked the one I liked the most. It was neither the cheapest nor the most expensive, but definitely better than my previous cables.
@@vmpty I'm into movies and not much music listening. Something like 95% I use my system for Home Theater. I just use good cables nothing exotic or outrageously expensive. I would rather spend it on gear than cables. I even listened and tried my friend's Mcintosh amp and tried to compare it to his Denon AVR and I couldn't tell any difference.
Good treatment of how to use the scientific method. Measurements are one form of data and may or may not be capable of determining the outcome of a question/hypothesis. EVERYTHING in the signal path makes a difference or even better yet, everything that impacts the signal path makes a difference. Good job explaining the difficulties of real unbiased observation.
Great video on a sensitive and complex subject. You kept my attention to the end - which speaks volumes. Well expressed Thomas and clearly the distillation of much deep thought. ;¬) Thanks and greetings to you and yours.
I think there are multiple problems around the subject of cables. For me the biggest is knowing that there are great profits to be had, which makes me very suspicious. Another one is the lack of measurements or other proof by the manufactor: if you claim your cable has better inductance/resistance or shielding you should be able to proof them. Lastly at least for me I think the placebo effect to be one of tge most underrated phenomena in Hifi. For examppe, I was listening to a headphone and than went and EQed it to be more neutral. After EQ it was the best it ever sounded....until I realized my dac drivers circumvent the eq software. I felt stupid and the headphone went back to being not that great. So I suspect people perceiv differences, be it placebo or real, but for me I doubt the difference to be meaningful enough that it would change my experience of my system, but i might be wrong.
If you place a resister in the signal path, of course it will make a difference in the sound. The amplifier will have to produce more voltage to overcome the resistance.
Most intelligent approach to this debacle, well done! Best statement for me was around "the most neutral system" highlighting differences in cables, rather than the most resolving. I use my young pianist daughter as the tester/decider. She has no idea what the black boxes in my rack do, nor when I changed something. But she is excellent at noticing and articulating differences in sound. And sometimes, changing a cable to a more expensive one tilted the sound in a way we did not like (typically: detail in exchange for harsher treble). It is about flavors, not absolutes. In my modest personal experience in upgrading, if 5 is a significant change in sonic signature, and 1 is not noticeable, I regard Speaker cables: 5 Interconnects: 4 Power chords/conditioners: 2-3 Digital interconnects: 2 USB cables: 1. Take care!
Thank you for outlining the Scientific Method!!! It's definitely not used enough. While measurements are important, if I can't hear an obvious improvement in the sound it doesn't matter.
Note: I might have stated the incorrect value of the resistor. Please keep comments respectful and intelligent. This is not a video on the value of cables nor about do cables sound different so let us stay focus. Please note the photo showing the inside of the network was a speaker cable and not the cables shown in the thumbnail or at the beginning of the video. Link to sound demo: th-cam.com/video/iyDsbh_I7xs/w-d-xo.html Link to Jay's cable blind test video: th-cam.com/video/HJGw8zwx-6g/w-d-xo.html Coke tastes better in a glass bottle? For fun : www.southernliving.com/drinks/glass-soda-bottles-taste#:~:text=Glass%20is%20a%20more%20inert,the%20purest%20Coca%2DCola%20flavor.
please do me a favour and try a nordost frey 2 power cord on your amp and your player!...listen to it one hour...than go back to a realy cheap power cord. if you realy dont hear any difference...you were the first one🤣👍 you can skip your power cleaner if you want!
Thomas, start a crowd funding to hire the appropriate group ( ie: Nasa ;) for a proper double bling test. You could organize this with other audiophile TH-camrs to get audience to participate, suggest cables... Possibly involve some measurement folks (ie: audioholics, audio science review...) This would be very entertaining for sure.
This is the best take so far. Bravo! I'd also like to throw in that the scientific method serves to minimize cognitive biases. In Alcoholics Anonymous the first step is acknowledging you have a problem In Audio testing the first step is acknowledging you have a bias
Thomas, simply thank you. This is awesome & insightful. Love your passion that pores out in each video. I live in Sri Lanka & the only proper brands we have access to is Yamaha & Qacoustics. So I got myself a Yamaha RX-V6A & Q3030i & boy I am in love. Since I got the duo in Feb 2021, I always wondered if better cables would sparkle the music more. Finally I am content. Thank you!
I think you might be able to get a bit more sparkle with different speaker cables. I remember the Q3000 series tweeter is not very sharp. However, I would advise you to spend the money elsewhere. For example, wait for my topping Pre90 preamp review.
The part of the conversation that is almost always missing is THE SYSTEM. The input makes no music. The preamp makes no music. The amp makes no music. The speakers make no music. Put them together and you have music. If you connect them with cables of some type. All the components have a signature sound according to the topology of the circuit. Resistors, capacitors, inductors and so on. Some of them work well with others but not all work great together. Cables also have resistance, capacitance and inductance. If you change those values in a piece of equipment it changes the sound. So if you add a cable you are changing the values of the entire musical system. Just because a listener can’t hear a difference doesn’t mean it’s not there. If you can’t fine. Those people can now decide how much they are willing to pay for the bling. You can still buy cables for bling. No shame there.
Really nice, diplomatic, but persuasive (in favor of scientific process)! I just enjoyed your style, regardless of the fact that I wholeheartedly agree with you! Just a nice example of a calm and sober invitation to keep an open mind. 😊
I work in the electronics industry, every engineer I talk to says "of course cables make a difference, but only to a point, so be careful". Difference doesn't always mean better either.
I suppose that people may well hear a difference between speaker cables, but more importantly it should be which cable do you prefer. As a conduit for sound between the amp and speaker, all you could really hope is that the cable makes as little change as possible. This means no cable can improve the source material, but they can mask the tones, separation of the bass, mid-range and treble as well as impact the soundstage. All I want is the most transparent cables.
I myself have 5 pairs of different High-end speaker cables. I switch cables every now and then. Sometimes I hear a difference, but to what extent do I hear a difference. That cannot be explained. It is about hearing and how well you can listen at that moment, concentrated listening is never the same. Because we often feel different. That is the biggest link in High-end. ✌😉👌👍
If cables made a differences that you can hear, you should hear the difference ALL the time, not sometimes. If you can only hear the difference sometimes, then the difference is YOU
Excellent video Thomas! Whenever I hear the people make arguments on either side of the cable debate (but too often the measurement guys) I am reminded of Neil DeGrasse Tyson when he said: "A great challenge of life: Knowing enough to think you are right, but not knowing enough to know you are wrong."
A love your analytical approach to the problem with testing (cables or anything else). The biggest obstacle and biggest variable by far, of any test is the Human in us! Our past experiences and assumptions, our willingness to accept and embrace the results, even if they’re different than our beliefs AND over all the need to fit in, being bias just to be part of the majority even if the conclusions are against it. Human mind is a powerful device, untestable and unstable mystery.
I haven’t purchased any cables that cost significant money. I was given something called a MusicWave speaker cable to try out. These were priced from $450-$2000 US, based on gauge of your cable. The device attached to the end of my ordinary14 gauge wire. I wasn’t really given an explanation of what it was supposed to do, but for me I could not hear a enough difference to warrant the spend. I must add I’m well over 60 so my hearing will not be as good as a 30 yr old, just for example. I think that’s the bottom line for cables. Advantages Vs diminishing returns.
Thomas, thanks for the reply. It actually sounds as if we are in complete agreement. My apologies if I missed your point or didn’t spot the sarcasm first time around. Still a fan.
I attended a demonstration of Transparent Audio speaker cable years ago. They demoed their top of the line speaker cables with and without their network boxes. The system was Levinson and Wilson Watt Puppies. These cables were 10k at that time. For the life of me I couldn't tell the difference.
If you could not tell the difference, then there is most likely no difference. Or the difference in that setup is not significant enough. I always say, if you have to concentrate a lot to hear any differences, then there is no difference.
Thomas, good one. Some long time audio experts say blind testing is not a viable method of evaluation. That confuses me. I am happy you as a proponent of blind testing. I have to assume that the concept scares most manufacturers.
@@hudo there is no "special" way of listening. Either something makes a difference or it doesn't, and measurements and test prove that there is NO scientific or logical reason why 2 different cables that measure identical would sound different other than strong cognitive bias.
@@dakken74 so that's it, it has to be bias, it can't sound different because way its measured its absolutely perfect? Even if bunch of people hear the difference? Did you even watch this video, or ever tested any cable on half decent stereo system?
@@hudo yes I watched the whole video and found no compelling argument for why cables should sound different other than a "belief" that they would or a trying to dismiss the findings of actual electrical engineers by saying that measurements are not science.
You pay for know-how, the resistor you show is a Dale from Vishay which sounds far better than the components found in most audio equipment. The point is that the resistors add a good sound to the system , I use Audio Note tantalum in the same way in my system. The component does not change anything electrically measurable but adds a good sound signature. This is one of hi-fi audio's unsolved conundrums, how does it work. Some components/marterials have this property as Steen Duelund a Danish speaker designer put it this way. If you see a rose in a landfill you will notice it and overlook the garbage , that is how some components work.
I have been doing this a good 50 years now. The last 30 in a dedicated room with some pretty nice gear that has only gotten better and better. In all that time I have never once felt the need to double-blind anything. If I hear no difference I hear no difference and away it goes, whatever it is. If I do hear a difference and it is better then and only then does it stay. Been doing this with an incredible long list of things, many of which will have eyes rolling big time. But here is the thing. Often times when people come over I will change something, and my favorite is to do it while they are listening. Take the cable elevators off and lay them on the floor. Put something under a component so the spring isolation no longer works. Turn the Active Shielding off, or remove or change a tuning bullet. All kinds of different things like that. And you know what? Every single time they hear it. Every single time! This has been going on for so long now, it hasn't been since the freaking 1990's there was any doubt. Maybe some day these laggards will catch up with where real audiophiles were 30 years ago. All they really have to do is go and listen. They will see. There should no longer be any doubt. All the same, thanks for patiently explaining.
I do the same thing. My favorite was when I tried a new set of interconnects. My wife came in from another room to ask "What's wrong with the stereo?" Those cables went back.
@@charlesgrubbs2101 I use the same indicator. Except my review reading must be better, because mine more often than not hears the improvement without even coming into the room.
this was a real good explonation. i was always open mindet. but most people arent. i sad always to myself power cables doesnt matter at all...i tryied a view of them and dont heard any difference...until i got a nordost heimdall 2...awesome but the frey 2 was much better overall, especialy in the bass. but i realy had to try it and make my own experience. but i bet i will pass the blind test, cause its just to much that you dont hear it.
When you hear a difference, what determines that the difference is a improvement? The price tag? A 160 kohm resistor across the conductors would likely just very slightly lower the level of the sound.
How many times have I seen people go straight to first principles and derive conclusions, skipping over that whole "experimentation" bit that defines science. What's more, degrees in EE seems to make this a default behaviour in a lot of people, which is kind of scary. Or as you put it so well: people come out of university thinking they know everything, when the only thing they should really care about knowing is the scientific method in all its nuances. One example that come to mind is the ability to hear the difference in high resolution recordings. Some people go straight to first principles and say you can't possibly hear something above 20 KHz. And that's true... for pure tones. The jump that the observation remains valid going from pure tones to music is an assumption. It's not an allowed "logical" conclusion; it needs to be experimentally verified to go from hypothesis to expanding scientific knowledge. And wouldn't you know, when tested, about 30% of people can hear the difference in a double blind test. It's surprising, it's strange. It's new data that demands revising our understanding, and devising new experiments to verify the new hypothesis we'll have formulated to explain this "contradictory" result, in the quest to improve our knowledge of reality. That's what science is - or should be. Physicists couldn't be happier when they get a result that contradict their most revered theories - it means there is something more to discover and to learn after all! That's awesome and what every scientist should be rooting for. So why, sadly, do we have so many people in audio dismissing evidence, going straight to theory and first principles and deriving "logical" conclusions. The worst part is that these people typically assume WE are the ones without scientific training and that THEY are really only standing up for "science" - I had a guy like that the other day that said this verbatim to me when I was trying to explain that THD+N is only one possible measurement and that you cannot infer that two amplifiers will sound the same based on that single measurement. He probably still thinks he was right; because it becomes dogma for them. When dogma is the most unscientific thing of all.
Absolutely correct, Engineers are not necessarly scientists, they use establashed science to make things, but they are not required to discover anything new scientifically, yet some of them think they know everything there is to know about certain things.
Wow, your thoughts are nice laid out and I wish more people can read what you just wrote. You basically summarized my whole video in a few sentences. Yeah, I should have used your example in my video because there are studies on listening beyond 20khz.
@@ThomasAndStereo You are too kind, but thank you for your generous words! I must say your video (obviously) struck a chord for me, especially after a few recent encounters with überobjectivists. Do keep up your good work, I very much enjoy your channel.
@@ThomasAndStereo Hi Thomas thanks for the reply...my tongue was firmly in my cheek...I tell my non audiophile friends to do what makes them happy! In about 1982 I was in an audio shop in Florida where they had 2 identical pairs of Ls3 5a’s set up with one that had the internal wire changed to silver plated oxygen free. The sales pitch was that NASA was using something similar ...it all seemed like the usual voodoo until I listened and there was definitely a difference which seemed to convey more info. Personally I haven’t heard much difference between interconnects and remain sceptical about about the effect of power chords. I very much enjoyed your dissertation. Cheers!
A number of you tube channels do sound demos. Of them, the only consistent one where you can tell a difference between the two selections is Pursuit Perfect Systems. Very tough with the you tube processing and the quality of the mics and the quality of the digital audio recorder.
Hey Thomas, fantastic video. That was a very well thought out explanation that makes a lot of sense. Some folks think the observation portion of the scientific method is the 'subjective' portion (not I). I'm a fan of the (true) scientific method. Thanks again
When it comes to cables, it is how much interference in the signal they get rid of. This is what's most important about why cables make a difference. Every db of noise entering your system is compressing the output signal. This takes a spacious, airy sound and makes it sound boxed off. The real question is, how expensive are we going to get. Even I think it's ludicrous to spend as much on cables as the system. In the name of amazing sound. Some people are willing to go that far. Kudos to everyone. Get what you want, and be happy!
My experience with cables and interconnect is that they should be of solid quality,but imho its a waste of money to go beyond the low two digits pricerange per meter. And yes,there is a lot of make believe and scamming going on in that niche of the market.
If two cables have identical bass, mid and high response but one does 3 dimensional layering of instruments and the other doesn't, how would we measure that difference? What would we measure and do we have the capability to measure it?
Science explains the observable and is simply our current best understanding, it is never truth. Measurements are of use only if we can measure what we are observing. Many audio designers will admit that several internal components are chosen by ear alone, as they can hear the difference despite not being able to measure where that observable difference comes from. I am an engineer rooted in science, and trained in recording engineering. I want to tell you all cables sound the same as it seems to make sense and distances myself from the undoubted snake oil salesman. But I know from 40 years of experience that cables DO sound different and i have experienced this many times and confirmed with friends in blind tests, to my satisfaction at least. Id rather they didnt, as id rather not spend much, but im happy with my choices and i cannot ignore what I hear. There are crooks out there looking for your money no question, but there are also cables that genuinely sound better, and fir me, thats a fact.
Personally, I think this is your best video so far, and you made it at the right moment. I truly enjoyed every second. I do believe we usually create our own reasoning according to how we feel. "Proving" something is not done usually by just one test or one database. That is why in the medical field it takes thousands of research to make some assumption "acceptable".
I'm late to the party here but that photo is blowing my mind. What a lot of people are missing is that there is also a capacitor in there, a little polystyrene item (the silver foil in a clear body at the top) It's likely wired in parallel (or maybe in series?) with that Vishay resistor to make an RC filter. You can see where they were soldered together with the blob on the resistor lead. What does that do? It's a noise filter to get rid of high frequency interference. One you can make for like 50 cents. Maybe 5$ if you use the same parts you see in the photo. If you search for RC filters on speaker cables you'll see it's not a new idea.
It's for people who fail to understand that audio works orders of magnitude smaller frequencies than radio frequencies. And some possible trace elements of radio frequencies are totally negated by the crude crossover network / dynamic drivers. It's like claiming a jumping mouse is causing a pyramid to shake.
One part of a scientific test double blind test would be to measure the cables. Don't assume they'd necessarily measure the same while possibly sounding different. Some expensive high end speaker cable manufacturers indeed do things to their cables that can change the measured performance. So *of course* it would be possible to hear a difference in that case. Some high end speaker cable designers do things to their cables that raise or lower their impedance or otherwise affect the signal delivered to the speakers, especially varying with frequency. The cable's impedance might go up with frequency, for example. So if there is an audible difference identified by the listeners, do measurements at the speaker terminals of both cables. Discuss which cable delivers the more measurably accurate signal, if one does.
I can hear a slight difference in sound depending on the color socks I'm wearing. I find black ankle length give the music a more laidback transparent sound stage with nuanced high mids (or is it mid highs)? I also detect a subtle oakiness with velvety chocolate undertones. But then again It might just be time for my medication. All kidding aside, Just found your channel. Been binge watching your videos and learning a lot. Thanks for the great content. I just subscribed.
Making your system sound different is easy, "better" is where the waters get muddy.
Better is totally individual so i don’t know why there’s a debate at all.
,,Better,, than what? What are the criteria? Very difficult questions to asnwer
@@khoi83 To you this thing sound better than something else you tried.
@@brainache555 define ,, better,, then
@@brainache555 Couldn't have said it better myself. 👍
It’s with videos like this that you earn respect and credibility. You and The British Audiophile are my 2 favourite channels channels.
@Jingle Nuts Oh, Gene and his massive measurement rig are being sued by Synergetic Research because of the snake oil accusations against the company. This has became an epic dispute with. True story! You can follow it in a FB group called Real Audiophiles
@@TombstoneTube
DellaSella does a great dis-service to the hobby both 2 channel audio or high end home theatre. Gene is no benefactor to the industry except make nothing but accusations. Good on Denney to go after that guy. Dellasella did this to himself.
@Jingle Nuts
Hates cables but reviews 9k pre/pros and comes out with a conclusion "gotta have it". He is no benefactor to the industry/hobby.
@Jingle Nuts not the same gene who thinks 'false economy' cables are same as expensive cables! Lol
Playboy is my favorite channel, though I admit those ladies are fairly bashful. And all funny cat videos are great too.
My goodness you’re a brave man to take on not just cables but the measurement arguments. I think you nailed it. Sensible, intelligent and informed. Bravo.
Thomas. This video was awesome! Probably the best explanation and most well thought out video I’ve seen on this subject
Thanks!! I gave it a lot of thoughts before making the video because I know it is a very sensitive subject.
Yes it was a great video and just to state my my opinion The only people who think cables don't matter are people who either can't afford it or have never heard it. Some guy showing you a measurement doesn't tell you anything about anything :-)
@@redleather420 I disagree, measurements are reliable but only show PARTS of the picture, but not the whole picture.
@@khoi83 they show you if something is broken or not that's it. ASR just measured a cable and said look it didn't change the frequency response or distortion therefore all cables are fake snake oil. I mean you would think these science people would be the intelligent ones but they do science worse than a second grader.
@@redleather420 ASR is not science, its a pseudo religion
I started reading the comments and instantly hit the tired old “If you can’t hear a difference, then you’re too poor...’ comment which Thomas already blew a hole through: that you could have a colored system (expensive or no) and it could be extremely hard to tell any difference. Similarly, how many of us have played our systems proudly for non-audiophiles, convinced that it was going to change their lives and all you get was a “Yeah, it sounds OK, I guess. My Bose Wave radio sounds good, too”.
@Sean MacDonald yea funny enough same applies to my aunt 😄
I think that the only person you need to please and impress with your sound system is yourself. Who cares what other people think or say?
A Bose Wave "is" my sound system, too. It ROCKS!...and....No cables to worry about! 👻
2 things:
1.) A $12 Belkin Gold cable from sounds significantly better than a generic OEM/Office Depot cable off the shelf for about the same price. No, it’s not because the USB plugs are gold plated (gold isn’t a great conductor, but it doesn’t rust easily), it’s because of the stuff inside. So, you don’t have to be rich enough.
2. I’m an absolute novice when it comes to wine tasting. Sure, I’ve heard of the terms “Dry” or “nutty,” but I don’t know what a “dry” liquid tastes like, and even though I’m 34 I can’t say I’ve had a wine that reminds me of cashews or walnuts. With headphones, Ten years ago, I could hear stuff like “more bass” or “muffled” because I had plenty of life experience about such things, but I had no idea what “digital hash,” “modal distortion,” or even what a 1 kHz tone was. Yep, there is surely placebo where you think you’ll hear something because someone said you should, but a trained ear is also better at separating the wheat from the chaff. 🌾
When it comes to cables, I was a non-believer, shorter or more ergonomic was ok, and someone else can buy a pretty cable but it wasn’t for me. I even had a company proudly let me compare their cable vs stock, and tell me it should be obvious the difference, but I just could not. That all changed for me when a friend brought a $650 cable over for my HD 800. I was utterly shocked how much clearer and fuller everything was... the HD 800 wasn’t experiencing a frequency shift, it just sounded like I was hearing _more,_ and the change in transparency and clarity was bigger and more noticeable than many DAC changes. They were ready to help me do blind A/B comparisons, but the first time going from stock to the 3rd party cable was not subtle and, for me, well outside the realm of placebo.
I can understand not wanting clearer headphones though. “Demons” by Imagine Dragons has AWFUL drums, super distorted and digitally mangled no matter if it’s from a DSD file or a Spotify Stream. But you can’t tell as easily on a Bose wave radio, and two days ago when I heard it at the grocery store the ceiling speakers couldn’t make the drums be audible at all. My mom also prefers the softness of a blurry distorted Bose wave radio, because she just likes a little relaxing melody while eating dinner or teaching yoga... she prefers instrumental music, so it’s actually better for her if lyrics are unintelligible. There’s all kinds of audiophiles out there, and I won’t say someone else is wrong for seeking a certain kind of signature.
@@evshrug insightful comment， thank you
6k cables? imagine what a solid set up you can have with that
6K cables are for people who have near 100 thousand dollar systems!
Yeah agree. $6k in room treatments would make a def noticeable improvement, more so than any cable could do.
@@boostedmaniac there you go
$6k cables is when your power amp/s and speakers are at least $20k each
There is a lot more that 6k will offer somewhere else in the audio chain
This is THE best commentary on cables I have ever seen, read or watched! Very good!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great video, I really don't know why some people get so angry regardless of which side of the fence they sit on. If you think that expensive cables make a difference then buy them, if you don't, then buy cheap ones. Either way, be happy and respect other people's views and most importantly, enjoy the music!
people get angry because companies are selling 12,000 $ a/c power cords to gullable people. those of us that have comon sense know its wrong and are trying to educate these people.
@@gasandbatteries9833 I can understand the motivation, it is like wanting to stop someone from getting robbed. But what if it is a reasonable price?
@@gasandbatteries9833 why the anger though?for some people who have that kind of money to spend, it would probably equate getting an Armani suit and putting on a cheap Old Navy belt instead of a Gucci one.🤷🏻♂️
@@ThomasAndStereo Hi Thomas, congratulations on presenting this hi-fi edu! Excellent from start to finish. Okay, so what is a reasonable price for an I.C., power cord, coax, etc? From my experiences and my budget, $300 is the absolute max and closer to $200 is what I prefer to max out at most of the time.
Now on a related topic, I have also discovered pleasing results using Toslink/Optical cable and it's much, much, more affordable than coax or I.C's. If I find the optical cable to my liking and affordable then the $ saved with the optical allows me to consider a tad more refined power cord or speaker wire. Anyway, do you A/B any optical-vs- coax or optical-vs- I.C.? Thank you Thomas.
@@nycbass78 well there is more to it than just that. cables are a con job. false advertising. no proof. no blind tests. alot like the junk sold on infomercials. alot like churches on tv that steal money from sheeple. hate to see it happen and things are getting done about it. Amir from audio science reveiw is one of the people doing something about it.
If you have difficulty figuring out if a product improves the sound, save your money. Use it to buy products that make a big difference. For the ultra high end and people with money to burn, small differences may be all you can get.
Completely agree. That is why I tell people don't bother with cables until the very end. You get way more return spending money elsewhere.
@@ThomasAndStereo The other thing about that Thomas, the more resolving your system is, the easier it is to hear a difference.
that’s what I thought when I spend over 1K on power cord. I know the actual material cost is probably like 20 bucks but I just can’t deny the change in sound quality.
@Jingle Nuts to me 1K is a lot. I invest most of my savings on crypto so hopefully I can afford a legit system after the current bull run.
@@buttonman1831 Precisely, if you have a mediocre system, putting high end cables/interconnects in the mix will not yield any "substantial" improvements.
Congratulations Thomas, this is the most concise, most relevant video on the nature of double-blind tests for audiophiles! I am adding it to my playlist of recommended videos for audiophile education. :)
Quickly becoming the best Audio Review TH-cam Channels available. Keep up the great common sense videos!
I loved the 1st statement, if no scientific proof is provided, yet, there is and has been continual scientific proof for decades. It was a touchy debate in the 90's. And still today qualified technicians who's jobs are cables provide real world facts, data and measurements regarding cables. you only have to look at ASR as one example.
Here is a reality. The cables that musicians use, and that the highest end mastering studios use, and everything in between, are simple low cost properly made cables that do what is required.
So, if one cable reveals detail on a recording, then the fact is, that the cables used in that recording, were of a construction to get that detail onto the recording. If it wasnt good enough, $100'000 cables would NOT be able to resolve that detail, information and resolution. It has to be on the recording, the cable CANNOT add information, nuance, and any other nonsense onto that recording during playback.
Therefore there is no argument.
Psycho Acoustics, peer pressure, and looks, play more of a part than anything else, hence why we had fat cables produce more base, silver cables are more detailed, short cables have faster transients, everything to do with looks.
Places like ASR do measurements, some of the most neutral equipment on the planet to the point they can measure the difference in a phono plug and Speakon vs binding posts. Benchmark advocate the same cables proffesional studio's use, PMC used to use Van Damme. If the best albums on the planet this whole century have been recorded in studio's where electrical and recording engineers have put together the studios, equipment and cabling, and they use cables that audiophiles do not like, Van Damme, Canare, Beldin, as examples, just what do you think your hearing?
The real issue is simply that the majority of hifi equipment, is coloured, and poorly engineered, from mid to high end, we have a market where an integrated amp will clip at two differenmt levels due to two different cables with different manufacturing methods. So wow, there is a difference, except, how are they accurate, when 12 awg OFC copper had the exact LCR values to not affect the transparency and content.
Well because we all want the one that cost money to be different.
Its why some companies make cables, and when I say make cables, they buy cheap wiring from companies and rebrand or redress it, a well known manufacturer bough Coax from RS components, at pence per meter, and made £1400 cables from it, with banana plugs that simply bent due to the weight, it was paired and sheilded with nice alloy clamps and nylon mesh, magazines and fans revelled in it, until disgruntled staff put up the part number and DIY guys made it themselves for a while.
Another company bought $20 banana plugs, and used twin runs of Marine battery cable 6awg OFC copper in dual sheilding, costing around $10 for 10m to make £900 speaker cables. That is the reality of cables, overpriced crap. And your playing albums that were mastered from mic to desk with cables that cost a couple of bucks per meter. Meaning all your hearing is what a couple of bucks of cable produced.
Sorry but if you say a $5 cable lacks the resolution of a $2500 cable, all that magic on the recording got there on a cheap cable, ASR showed how $2500 Audioquests cable measured up against a $2 cable, no difference, they measured Transparent cables with their batteries, shock horror, the information is there.
The reality is, there is nothing but magic and delusion in the cable illusion.
Hey Thomas. Great video.
I totally agree that you shouldn't ask someone let alone a youtuber to do a blind AB test or a double blind.
Not because they are not qualified like you said but because of the "cost" - some are, just like me from a background of doing such tests
and it is not hard to learn about a true double blind test if one is serious about learning about it (especially in the modern day of information, it is no unicorn)
But the cost and complication that goes into it is something that people often do not consider.
Yes, that is wrong of me to say that all TH-camrs are not qualified. Anyone who understands the scientific method and understands what are the possible factors that can influence the outcome of a test is qualified.
Not until they go to an audiologist and have their hearing checked. Like the guy who ran the ls3/5a shootout at ls35a.com did. He gets an A++ for honesty.
@@bruce8429 th-cam.com/video/rLvpVMeORns/w-d-xo.html
We certainly did
One of the most compelling and comprehensive explanations. I think it just comes down to common sense.
Strange fact: I only started to think about cable replacements when I was fully content with my system.
Is there something wrong with you? The whole point about audio is to never be fully content with your system! 👻
hi Thomas, one of your BEST videos so far - keep it coming please - I loved it (irrespective if I "believe" or not)
Lucky are those among us with such carefree lives that it takes a cable to cause upset.
True
Thats why there will never be world peace
well, u know there are people out there that if they were condemned to die, standing @th gallows in front of th hangman, would start an argument over which type of rope was best!😅 I'm afraid that type of personality is plentiful in th audiophile community
@@tothemax324 True
@@gizzy2403 lol touché!!That would be a polyhemp blend rope of course.😁
Thank you for making this video :D it's what's needed in this community.
"for those of you who dont believe in foreplay, and just want to jump into the action..." Thomas has good sense of humor, lol.
I wonder if he was speaking from experience?
Best arguments I heard about measurements and the cable debate.
I have a method for upgrading cables. My dealer recommends several used cables from his stock, without him telling me the prices, I bring them home and test them with my system for several days until I decide which one I like the best. When I tell him my decision frequently it was neither the cheapest or the most expensive one that I picked.
If you apart from the scientific method add a couple of university points in psychology regarding cognitive biases, projection and placebo effects you will come to understand much about high-end audio. Someone who's just dropped 5k on a cable is very inclined to hear some kind of change which they then will want to interpret as "better".
I would not disagree with you there that what you said is possibly true, we just need to do the double blind test to confirm first. Then we come up with possible different reasons why that is true. Is it placebo? Or is it true there is a difference.
Don't underestimate the power of suggestion
The pic of the network shows a resistor and a poly styrene cap. The wires look intact yet slit open so we have an RC network connected in parallel to the normal conductors. This is called 'terminating' the cable and is more typically done in the electronics, for example the 75 ohm resistor terminating a SPDIF cable just beyond the jack on a DAC. Speaker cables are not radio frequency transmission lines like video coax or ethernet twisted pairs so here a guess would be the RC network rolls off above audio frequencies noise which potentially makes the amplifier's feedback network more stable.
Oh, thanks for explaining, I have no idea.
Finally someone who thinks logically. Personally, I don’t use expensive cables because, at my budget, I think the money is better spent elsewhere. However, I always wonder how so many people can say they hear a difference in cables and other people absolutely dismiss those people’s opinions. The amount of distrust baffles me. I am yet to do a blind test on myself, and for that reason, I have no basis for a valid argument. One day I’d like to go to a high end shop and try out some cables for myself, but even then I’m not sure I could call the results accurate. I’d have to bring them home and listen long term like you mentioned.
Anyway, I always appreciate the approach you have on these topics. You clearly lay out your beliefs and give reasons for them. Even though I am almost completely a DIY guy, you are my favorite reviewer because of your way of thinking.
This is perfectly stated, cables absolutely matter but it takes time and experience to listen and learn. My best advise to those starting out in this hobby is to buy used, research and read all you can.
Great tip!
Perhaps your most compelling video. Very well articulated. Bravo! IMO, audiophiles would be well served to listen with an open mind and to keep their minds open. FWIW, I’m confident that I’ve heard cable differences, but not in every instance.
Thanks again for this video addressing tricky issue.
There is something that also can make a difference in cables difference audition : the room. I experienced myself two different rooms when I changed home. The first one was acoustically very poor, high reflexion, hard floor.. and cables change was spectacular. Now I am in a better room and some changes are more difficult to assess. I am testing 5 different speakers cable and it is not easy to discriminate even if some differences are audible.
For me, if it takes a lot of energy to hear the difference, there is no difference.
I was actually surprised to be able to hear a difference between two sets of speaker cables, something I never thought possible.
And you with most certainty didn't hear it this time either. James Randy has 10 000 dollars waiting for you if you pass a double blind test and hear a difference between two cables. Go grab it...
Here is my largest concern with this debate... I have a decent and transparent system... yet every time I sit down and listen it never sounds exactly the same, even though I am using the exact same equipment, listening position, and music. Some days I am so impressed with the sound, other times I don't like what I'm hearing.
So for me it becomes hard for me to fully trust my own ears. I need to listen for many sessions and assess over a period of time... which makes judging minor differences from cables just that much more unreliable.
Amir, as a audiophile for almost 50 years I've experienced similar phenomenon with my modest yet transparent system. I've come to the conclusion that there are many other variables which can influence all of this. For example, voltage fluctuation and noise in the AC Mains, room temperature, relative humidity, (important for speakers,) warm-up of the equipment, break-in routine, night or day, listening with eyes shut or eyes open, (don't laugh there's a perception acuity issue here which exists,) etc. I suspect that if you can minimize these variables that you too would begin to also hear minor differences in cables. I belong to the camp that cables do indeed perform and sound different just like all other "components" in your system. Basic electrical measurements are very helpful indicators IMHO (LCR) regarding what to possibly expect however at the end of the day it all comes down to achieving synergy with your other components even in support of any individual listening preferences. For what's it worth, my financial investment in cables translates to ~ 7-8% of the $ value of my entire system when it was originally purchased. Significant but not ridiculous.
@@oldschoolaudioenthusiast I changed my powerchords and powerstrip and minimised this fluctuation nearly to zero. Cheers
Your own mood is a factor that most people don't consider.
Amir - trust your ears, I've been at this for 40 years and the same goes with my different systems. Read Alan's comment below (or above) - therein lies the answers to the nightly sound fluctuations. Cheers!
You probably should consider to try a good AC mains filter/regenerator. That may reduce fluctuations.
Audio is a hardware journey where the destination is the same, but people spend so much time arguing about the journey. What does it matter if people are spending too much as long as they enjoyed their journey - same destination
True, what other people do is their own business. Just enjoy the music.
Some people are so worried about how their gear is set up that they don't listen/enjoy the music.
Don't listen to your gear folks, listen to and enjoy the music!
I think the issue comes about when the people who hear the difference try to put down those who can't, or can't afford to buy better gear, which is where the measurement people try to intervene, try to be saviours and say its ok to have cheap cables because more expensive ones aren't better in any terms (at least as long as they measure about the same or within a certain threshold). I think many modern reviewers try to act as peaceful moderators, and tell the people who can't afford expensive cables, that its not that big of an issue.
Thomas.
Ure argumenting and summoning up, around this subject. Is the absolute best Ive heard.
Not only cause ive come to the same conclusions.
But cause you (oposite me) are skilled to put it in to understandable words and a good conclusion.
Great chanel great humble personality. Thankyou.
/ J
I have to give it you Thomas, nobody ever mentions the scientific method when talking about measurements and science. I also studied science in University and applaud this video. Excellent video!
I talk about it all the time. I was starting to think I was crazy, because you're right. No one ever mentions it. And out of nowhere, Thomas comes and saves the day.
As I always said, I personally hear a difference. I totally agree it depends on your system. Some cables will not manifest a difference from one to another because of your components. Thomas you know this is a very gutsy and explanation. I'm not going to name any names of youtube channels but I could guarantee as he views this video, he will be fixing his glasses and rubbing the rest of his hair. You my friend Thomas remind me of one thing my dad told me as a teenager; 'it doesn't matter if someone speaks bad or good about you, the important thing is that you are always the topic of the conversation.'😉
Congrats Thomas, this is simply fantastic.
So that goes both ways I guess. For both Thomas and Gene. They both are the topic of your comment.
@@Yiannis2112 who knows? 😉😂
I have. a degree in physics, worked in academia for a while. I think that it's only folk who haven't worked in science who act religious about measurements. I use statistics every day in my job. When I come home i enjoy listening to my musical, distorted tube amp with big horn speakers - because they sound great.
I might modify that; engineers rather than scientists I have found most unpersuadable on cables. The actual scientists generally take the scientific approach whereas engineers rely on 'established' dogma.
@@turiddu9 Engineers are generally very practical people and also reliant on their equipment and calculations. If the machine tells them that the resistance and capacitance of the wire are the same, then of course you can't hear a difference. The concept that sound is interpreted somewhat subjectively by people or that there may be some aspect of sound reproduction not captured in basic measurements escapes them.
@@jefft275 If its not captured in basic measurements feel free to suggest what kind of measurements should be used. In fact maybe the cable manufacturers could tell us what measurements they use to evaluate their cable designs?
@@turiddu9 engineering is inherently an unthinking field. They believe in the "good enough" approach for every component in the chain, and believe making components better than they need to be makes no difference.
Best video about cables I've watched thus far! 👌
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@ThomasAndStereo Do you think cable manufacturers know why cables make a difference? Or are they keeping that information to themselves? Logic dictates that they should know but of course there are exceptions...what do you think Thomas?
I liked the Glas Bottle, can analogie the Most, because it comes to show what minor differences can determine if the human prefers one thing over the other, although at first the determining factor wouldn’t come to mind. Cheers.
A very good contribution to the cable discussion. Based in science and being respectful of either position. Thank you.
Thomas... EXACTLY. YOU SAID IT PERFECTLY. And yet, many will still not get it.
GREAT VIDEO THOMAS! I really like your presentation and argumentation. I am a physicist (with specialities in solid state and acoustics) - and we are very used to the idea that 1) we don't know everything and 2) if the observations don't match the measurements, then *it's clear that the model we are using is inadequate* That is the history of physics!
Cables may measure identically with the limited measurements we make but obviously *something we don't yet know about* is making the difference we experience. I really liked your hamburger analogy.
And I don't agree with the people (eg. Amir "science=measurements" Audio Science Review) who perpetuate the falsehood "no measurement difference on this 1kHz sinewave or frequency sweep means no difference in sound". I know psychoacousitics is also a factor, and also here we also don't know very much.
Personally I do think that there are significant effects independent of my brain's processing that are causing audible differences (remember when we switched to Teflon dielectrics?!) which have to do with electron flow, crystal boundaries, skin effect, relative phase of different frequencies, dielectric behaviour, and more as well as inductance, resistance and capacitance. Thank you for making this video and your quiet reasoning was very enjoyable. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
Every single piece of reference audio gear ever built to this day is tuned by the ears of its creator in its final stages of r&d before they go off to production , cables , speakers , source components, amps , room, treatment , etc
In the professional audio / studio environnements , the benefits of high performance cables / internal wiring , got settled about 25 years ago ,
Yup, well you are an expert at this.
I respectfully submit to you that an accurate blind test is not expensive to conduct. One does not need to live with a cable for months to notice a difference. All that is needed for an accurate blind test are the following:
1) A space, doesn't even have to be sound treated
2) A panel of volunteer test subjects
3) HiFi audio equipments
4) The cables to be blind tested.
You forgot the beer. 😁 I am sure it can be done with a budget but it depends on what you set as conditions.
This is precisely why the Molingordo/Matrix Hifi tests done in Spain a few years ago are so interesting. They were done in a very amiable, controlled setting, by audiophiles themselves with no agenda whatsoever and with exquisite etiquette. The results are there for anyone to explore.
@@robertocalvo934 I saw it and I would have changed certain things because I have an issue with some of their criteria. For example, they asked people to choose the 'best' system, well best is different for different people so are they testing the system or are they testing people's taste? I can go on and on but you get my point.
@@ThomasAndStereo I think your are mistaken. At least in the first meetings the ABx test was : can you tell apart one system(10.000 euros) from another (700 euros). They weren't asking subjective questions but rather can you tell me which one is A and B, which they couldn't (it seems that when you match sounds levels things get knotty )
@@robertocalvo934 Well at the bottom, it is written at the bottom of the page "Well, to avoid being subject of such arguments, we have gone from the usual DBT questioning "wich is the one"? to "wich one you like best"? This should eliminate the pressure that so often is called upon to demerit the use of DBT's, furthermore, on this occasion there were not preagreed a max listening time, and each listener/tester could use the music of his choice."
There are at least two integral part of science here as well: empirical evidence and replication of studies. Both are present in cables: there are overwhelming reports of empirical evidence showing results in sound differences between cables, and those differences are replicated (and confirmed) by multiples sources in different parts of the world; therefore those differences reasonably exist. If measurement can’t explain those differences, then we at least know that at the moment the measurement technology is not able to explain the phenomenon. Thank you Thomas for this wonderful opportunity to discuss the topic 🔥❤️.
Well said Thomas. I myself don't believe that cables make a difference. That's also why I really admire what Amir of ASR is doing. That being said I don't hate people that think they can hear a difference. Maybe there really is a difference but I think for the majority of CASUAL listeners like me won't even hear or notice if there really is a difference. That's why I myself just can't seem to understand why some people spend an enormous amount of money on cables. Which is most probably the reason why people who have the same opinion as me feel like these cable companies are just snake oil salesmen and just trying to fool consumers. Gene of Audioholics had a similar experience with Audioquest which gave him vague explanations. I know you feel that cables do make a difference and I respect that.
I myself wonder when these cable companies proudly say what their products are capable of but NEVER post their test results or measurements to prove their claims.
Forget Amir and forget Gene. Follow your own ears. Test good quality used cables in your system and decide by yourself. I did, with used cables, without knowing their exact models and price, and in my system, there was clearly a difference in sound. After several days I picked the one I liked the most. It was neither the cheapest nor the most expensive, but definitely better than my previous cables.
@@vmpty I'm into movies and not much music listening. Something like 95% I use my system for Home Theater. I just use good cables nothing exotic or outrageously expensive. I would rather spend it on gear than cables. I even listened and tried my friend's Mcintosh amp and tried to compare it to his Denon AVR and I couldn't tell any difference.
@@johnlim7720 if you do mostly home theater I fully understand what you mean. In my own HT setup I don't mind much about cables either.
Good treatment of how to use the scientific method. Measurements are one form of data and may or may not be capable of determining the outcome of a question/hypothesis. EVERYTHING in the signal path makes a difference or even better yet, everything that impacts the signal path makes a difference. Good job explaining the difficulties of real unbiased observation.
Great video on a sensitive and complex subject. You kept my attention to the end - which speaks volumes. Well expressed Thomas and clearly the distillation of much deep thought. ;¬) Thanks and greetings to you and yours.
I agree Thomas. Best to keep an open mind on the subject and leave it at that.
Sometimes you can open your mind so much that your brain falls out.
@@crazyprayingmantis5596Has not been my experience. How about you ???
I think there are multiple problems around the subject of cables. For me the biggest is knowing that there are great profits to be had, which makes me very suspicious.
Another one is the lack of measurements or other proof by the manufactor: if you claim your cable has better inductance/resistance or shielding you should be able to proof them.
Lastly at least for me I think the placebo effect to be one of tge most underrated phenomena in Hifi. For examppe, I was listening to a headphone and than went and EQed it to be more neutral. After EQ it was the best it ever sounded....until I realized my dac drivers circumvent the eq software. I felt stupid and the headphone went back to being not that great.
So I suspect people perceiv differences, be it placebo or real, but for me I doubt the difference to be meaningful enough that it would change my experience of my system, but i might be wrong.
Honestly, I don't know if cables make a difference, but I do enjoy nice looking and well constructed cables. I just think they look cool.
Fair enough!
If you place a resister in the signal path, of course it will make a difference in the sound. The amplifier will have to produce more voltage to overcome the resistance.
Was it in parallel, like just along side, what would that do?
Most intelligent approach to this debacle, well done! Best statement for me was around "the most neutral system" highlighting differences in cables, rather than the most resolving.
I use my young pianist daughter as the tester/decider. She has no idea what the black boxes in my rack do, nor when I changed something. But she is excellent at noticing and articulating differences in sound. And sometimes, changing a cable to a more expensive one tilted the sound in a way we did not like (typically: detail in exchange for harsher treble). It is about flavors, not absolutes.
In my modest personal experience in upgrading, if 5 is a significant change in sonic signature, and 1 is not noticeable, I regard
Speaker cables: 5
Interconnects: 4
Power chords/conditioners: 2-3
Digital interconnects: 2
USB cables: 1.
Take care!
Man, that is amazing to have a daughter with a skill like that.
Having 30 years of being an audiofile and hearing many cables, id say having a highend system makes a difference in cable sound.
Thank you for outlining the Scientific Method!!! It's definitely not used enough. While measurements are important, if I can't hear an obvious improvement in the sound it doesn't matter.
Note: I might have stated the incorrect value of the resistor. Please keep comments respectful and intelligent. This is not a video on the value of cables nor about do cables sound different so let us stay focus. Please note the photo showing the inside of the network was a speaker cable and not the cables shown in the thumbnail or at the beginning of the video.
Link to sound demo: th-cam.com/video/iyDsbh_I7xs/w-d-xo.html
Link to Jay's cable blind test video: th-cam.com/video/HJGw8zwx-6g/w-d-xo.html
Coke tastes better in a glass bottle? For fun : www.southernliving.com/drinks/glass-soda-bottles-taste#:~:text=Glass%20is%20a%20more%20inert,the%20purest%20Coca%2DCola%20flavor.
please do me a favour and try a nordost frey 2 power cord on your amp and your player!...listen to it one hour...than go back to a realy cheap power cord. if you realy dont hear any difference...you were the first one🤣👍
you can skip your power cleaner if you want!
Thomas, start a crowd funding to hire the appropriate group ( ie: Nasa ;) for a proper double bling test. You could organize this with other audiophile TH-camrs to get audience to participate, suggest cables... Possibly involve some measurement folks (ie: audioholics, audio science review...) This would be very entertaining for sure.
This is the best take so far. Bravo!
I'd also like to throw in that the scientific method serves to minimize cognitive biases.
In Alcoholics Anonymous the first step is acknowledging you have a problem
In Audio testing the first step is acknowledging you have a bias
The problem is not that people hear a difference, it is that they always hear an improvement.
I eat Butter Chicken with basmati rice while watching this! No need for a good wine or beer! Thanks Thomas!
Thank you for the info great work Thomas... I always trust my ear and happy with my vintage system... 👍👍👍
Thomas, simply thank you. This is awesome & insightful. Love your passion that pores out in each video.
I live in Sri Lanka & the only proper brands we have access to is Yamaha & Qacoustics. So I got myself a Yamaha RX-V6A & Q3030i & boy I am in love.
Since I got the duo in Feb 2021, I always wondered if better cables would sparkle the music more. Finally I am content. Thank you!
I think you might be able to get a bit more sparkle with different speaker cables. I remember the Q3000 series tweeter is not very sharp. However, I would advise you to spend the money elsewhere. For example, wait for my topping Pre90 preamp review.
I love your video generally and this one in particular
The part of the conversation that is almost always missing is THE SYSTEM. The input makes no music. The preamp makes no music. The amp makes no music. The speakers make no music. Put them together and you have music. If you connect them with cables of some type. All the components have a signature sound according to the topology of the circuit. Resistors, capacitors, inductors and so on. Some of them work well with others but not all work great together. Cables also have resistance, capacitance and inductance. If you change those values in a piece of equipment it changes the sound. So if you add a cable you are changing the values of the entire musical system. Just because a listener can’t hear a difference doesn’t mean it’s not there. If you can’t fine. Those people can now decide how much they are willing to pay for the bling. You can still buy cables for bling. No shame there.
Really nice, diplomatic, but persuasive (in favor of scientific process)! I just enjoyed your style, regardless of the fact that I wholeheartedly agree with you! Just a nice example of a calm and sober invitation to keep an open mind. 😊
I work in the electronics industry, every engineer I talk to says "of course cables make a difference, but only to a point, so be careful". Difference doesn't always mean better either.
I'm assuming that's supposed to say "doesn't"
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 yep, typo
I suppose that people may well hear a difference between speaker cables, but more importantly it should be which cable do you prefer. As a conduit for sound between the amp and speaker, all you could really hope is that the cable makes as little change as possible. This means no cable can improve the source material, but they can mask the tones, separation of the bass, mid-range and treble as well as impact the soundstage. All I want is the most transparent cables.
I myself have 5 pairs of different High-end speaker cables. I switch cables every now and then. Sometimes I hear a difference, but to what extent do I hear a difference. That cannot be explained. It is about hearing and how well you can listen at that moment, concentrated listening is never the same. Because we often feel different. That is the biggest link in High-end.
✌😉👌👍
If cables made a differences that you can hear, you should hear the difference ALL the time, not sometimes.
If you can only hear the difference sometimes, then the difference is YOU
@@crazyprayingmantis5596
That's true.
Excellent video Thomas! Whenever I hear the people make arguments on either side of the cable debate (but too often the measurement guys) I am reminded of Neil DeGrasse Tyson when he said: "A great challenge of life: Knowing enough to think you are right, but not knowing enough to know you are wrong."
Great video man!
A love your analytical approach to the problem with testing (cables or anything else). The biggest obstacle and biggest variable by far, of any test is the Human in us! Our past experiences and assumptions, our willingness to accept and embrace the results, even if they’re different than our beliefs AND over all the need to fit in, being bias just to be part of the majority even if the conclusions are against it.
Human mind is a powerful device, untestable and unstable mystery.
I haven’t purchased any cables that cost significant money. I was given something called a MusicWave speaker cable to try out. These were priced from $450-$2000 US, based on gauge of your cable. The device attached to the end of my ordinary14 gauge wire. I wasn’t really given an explanation of what it was supposed to do, but for me I could not hear a enough difference to warrant the spend. I must add I’m well over 60 so my hearing will not be as good as a 30 yr old, just for example. I think that’s the bottom line for cables. Advantages Vs diminishing returns.
Thomas, thanks for the reply. It actually sounds as if we are in complete agreement. My apologies if I missed your point or didn’t spot the sarcasm first time around. Still a fan.
Best of the bests. Best explanation ive ever heard on this "delicate" subject. My favourite yt channel. Its a pleasure to whatch your video. 👏🏻
I attended a demonstration of Transparent Audio speaker cable years ago. They demoed their top of the line speaker cables with and without their network boxes. The system was Levinson and Wilson Watt Puppies. These cables were 10k at that time. For the life of me I couldn't tell the difference.
If you could not tell the difference, then there is most likely no difference. Or the difference in that setup is not significant enough. I always say, if you have to concentrate a lot to hear any differences, then there is no difference.
Awesome vid I'm a cable believer Thomas thxxx
Thomas, good one. Some long time audio experts say blind testing is not a viable method of evaluation. That confuses me.
I am happy you as a proponent of blind testing. I have to assume that the concept scares most manufacturers.
Amir from ASR does not approve this video.
But I do, everything so well said, Thomas The Story Teller Stereo!
they are a joke...measurements are the only thing that matters !
@@Dobbs65 he knows very much about electrics but doesn't know much about how to listen
@@hudo there is no "special" way of listening. Either something makes a difference or it doesn't, and measurements and test prove that there is NO scientific or logical reason why 2 different cables that measure identical would sound different other than strong cognitive bias.
@@dakken74 so that's it, it has to be bias, it can't sound different because way its measured its absolutely perfect? Even if bunch of people hear the difference? Did you even watch this video, or ever tested any cable on half decent stereo system?
@@hudo yes I watched the whole video and found no compelling argument for why cables should sound different other than a "belief" that they would or a trying to dismiss the findings of actual electrical engineers by saying that measurements are not science.
You pay for know-how, the resistor you show is a Dale from Vishay which sounds far better than the components found in most audio equipment.
The point is that the resistors add a good sound to the system , I use Audio Note tantalum in the same way in my system.
The component does not change anything electrically measurable but adds a good sound signature. This is one of hi-fi audio's unsolved conundrums, how does it work.
Some components/marterials have this property as Steen Duelund a Danish speaker designer put it this way.
If you see a rose in a landfill you will notice it and overlook the garbage , that is how some components work.
I have been doing this a good 50 years now. The last 30 in a dedicated room with some pretty nice gear that has only gotten better and better. In all that time I have never once felt the need to double-blind anything. If I hear no difference I hear no difference and away it goes, whatever it is. If I do hear a difference and it is better then and only then does it stay. Been doing this with an incredible long list of things, many of which will have eyes rolling big time. But here is the thing. Often times when people come over I will change something, and my favorite is to do it while they are listening. Take the cable elevators off and lay them on the floor. Put something under a component so the spring isolation no longer works. Turn the Active Shielding off, or remove or change a tuning bullet. All kinds of different things like that. And you know what? Every single time they hear it. Every single time! This has been going on for so long now, it hasn't been since the freaking 1990's there was any doubt. Maybe some day these laggards will catch up with where real audiophiles were 30 years ago. All they really have to do is go and listen. They will see. There should no longer be any doubt. All the same, thanks for patiently explaining.
I do the same thing. My favorite was when I tried a new set of interconnects. My wife came in from another room to ask "What's wrong with the stereo?" Those cables went back.
@@charlesgrubbs2101 I use the same indicator. Except my review reading must be better, because mine more often than not hears the improvement without even coming into the room.
Thank you for your information about anything in this video....nice info
Just for fun.😉
1 dollar resistor on a cable hmmmm. On the bright side Great video Thomas
One of your best Video’s Thomas !
this was a real good explonation. i was always open mindet. but most people arent. i sad always to myself power cables doesnt matter at all...i tryied a view of them and dont heard any difference...until i got a nordost heimdall 2...awesome but the frey 2 was much better overall, especialy in the bass. but i realy had to try it and make my own experience. but i bet i will pass the blind test, cause its just to much that you dont hear it.
People,, stear clear of short cables. , they send the dynamics all weard.. They don't to let the cable do its job properly...
When you hear a difference, what determines that the difference is a improvement? The price tag? A 160 kohm resistor across the conductors would likely just very slightly lower the level of the sound.
You determine if the improvement is for the better or not, no one else.
😂. THOMAS.... YOU BLINDED US WITH SCIENCE 😂. I LOVED IT🤗
THANKS FOR OPENING OUR EYES👀. And maybe a few minds 🤔 enlightening NEW ONES 😉😍😍😍
Wonderfully logical and beautifully explained, thank you! : ) Observation... excellent.
"Why no double-blind cable test?" Because some audiophiles get hurt , they want to live in a dreamworld.
In the photograph there is also a capacitor near the person's index finger. A resistor and a capacitor can make a filter.
How many times have I seen people go straight to first principles and derive conclusions, skipping over that whole "experimentation" bit that defines science. What's more, degrees in EE seems to make this a default behaviour in a lot of people, which is kind of scary. Or as you put it so well: people come out of university thinking they know everything, when the only thing they should really care about knowing is the scientific method in all its nuances. One example that come to mind is the ability to hear the difference in high resolution recordings. Some people go straight to first principles and say you can't possibly hear something above 20 KHz. And that's true... for pure tones. The jump that the observation remains valid going from pure tones to music is an assumption. It's not an allowed "logical" conclusion; it needs to be experimentally verified to go from hypothesis to expanding scientific knowledge. And wouldn't you know, when tested, about 30% of people can hear the difference in a double blind test. It's surprising, it's strange. It's new data that demands revising our understanding, and devising new experiments to verify the new hypothesis we'll have formulated to explain this "contradictory" result, in the quest to improve our knowledge of reality. That's what science is - or should be. Physicists couldn't be happier when they get a result that contradict their most revered theories - it means there is something more to discover and to learn after all! That's awesome and what every scientist should be rooting for. So why, sadly, do we have so many people in audio dismissing evidence, going straight to theory and first principles and deriving "logical" conclusions. The worst part is that these people typically assume WE are the ones without scientific training and that THEY are really only standing up for "science" - I had a guy like that the other day that said this verbatim to me when I was trying to explain that THD+N is only one possible measurement and that you cannot infer that two amplifiers will sound the same based on that single measurement. He probably still thinks he was right; because it becomes dogma for them. When dogma is the most unscientific thing of all.
Absolutely correct, Engineers are not necessarly scientists, they use establashed science to make things, but they are not required to discover anything new scientifically, yet some of them think they know everything there is to know about certain things.
@@Ryu288288 especially chemical engineers. They think they are the smartest in the room. 😂
Wow, your thoughts are nice laid out and I wish more people can read what you just wrote. You basically summarized my whole video in a few sentences. Yeah, I should have used your example in my video because there are studies on listening beyond 20khz.
@@ThomasAndStereo You are too kind, but thank you for your generous words! I must say your video (obviously) struck a chord for me, especially after a few recent encounters with überobjectivists. Do keep up your good work, I very much enjoy your channel.
I don’t hear a difference between cables. But I respect those that do. All this truly means is, I’ve more to spend on other gear!
This was superbly explained and well argued. Well done Thomas!
Do tone controls make a difference ...if they do, should you use them?
Yes, I made a video on the Schitt Loki and I mentioned my position on tone control at the end. I have no problem with it.
@@ThomasAndStereo Hi Thomas thanks for the reply...my tongue was firmly in my cheek...I tell my non audiophile friends to do what makes them happy!
In about 1982 I was in an audio shop in Florida where they had 2 identical pairs of Ls3 5a’s set up with one that had the internal wire changed to silver plated oxygen free. The sales pitch was that NASA was using something similar ...it all seemed like the usual voodoo until I listened and there was definitely a difference which seemed to convey more info. Personally I haven’t heard much difference between interconnects and remain sceptical about about the effect of power chords. I very much enjoyed your dissertation.
Cheers!
Thomas, you look so cold! Stop buying gear in the winter months and turn on the heat! Lol
Fellow Canadian Wayne here, from Vancouver!
I just need to turn on one of my tube amps :)
A number of you tube channels do sound demos. Of them, the only consistent one where you can tell a difference between the two selections is Pursuit Perfect Systems. Very tough with the you tube processing and the quality of the mics and the quality of the digital audio recorder.
Hey Thomas, fantastic video. That was a very well thought out explanation that makes a lot of sense. Some folks think the observation portion of the scientific method is the 'subjective' portion (not I). I'm a fan of the (true) scientific method. Thanks again
When it comes to cables, it is how much interference in the signal they get rid of. This is what's most important about why cables make a difference. Every db of noise entering your system is compressing the output signal. This takes a spacious, airy sound and makes it sound boxed off. The real question is, how expensive are we going to get. Even I think it's ludicrous to spend as much on cables as the system. In the name of amazing sound. Some people are willing to go that far. Kudos to everyone. Get what you want, and be happy!
My experience with cables and interconnect is that they should be of solid quality,but imho its a waste
of money to go beyond the low two digits pricerange per meter. And yes,there is a lot of make believe
and scamming going on in that niche of the market.
If two cables have identical bass, mid and high response but one does 3 dimensional layering of instruments and the other doesn't, how would we measure that difference? What would we measure and do we have the capability to measure it?
Science explains the observable and is simply our current best understanding, it is never truth. Measurements are of use only if we can measure what we are observing. Many audio designers will admit that several internal components are chosen by ear alone, as they can hear the difference despite not being able to measure where that observable difference comes from.
I am an engineer rooted in science, and trained in recording engineering. I want to tell you all cables sound the same as it seems to make sense and distances myself from the undoubted snake oil salesman. But I know from 40 years of experience that cables DO sound different and i have experienced this many times and confirmed with friends in blind tests, to my satisfaction at least. Id rather they didnt, as id rather not spend much, but im happy with my choices and i cannot ignore what I hear.
There are crooks out there looking for your money no question, but there are also cables that genuinely sound better, and fir me, thats a fact.
Personally, I think this is your best video so far, and you made it at the right moment. I truly enjoyed every second. I do believe we usually create our own reasoning according to how we feel. "Proving" something is not done usually by just one test or one database. That is why in the medical field it takes thousands of research to make some assumption "acceptable".
Yes, exactly my point.
I'm late to the party here but that photo is blowing my mind. What a lot of people are missing is that there is also a capacitor in there, a little polystyrene item (the silver foil in a clear body at the top) It's likely wired in parallel (or maybe in series?) with that Vishay resistor to make an RC filter. You can see where they were soldered together with the blob on the resistor lead. What does that do? It's a noise filter to get rid of high frequency interference. One you can make for like 50 cents. Maybe 5$ if you use the same parts you see in the photo. If you search for RC filters on speaker cables you'll see it's not a new idea.
It's for people who fail to understand that audio works orders of magnitude smaller frequencies than radio frequencies. And some possible trace elements of radio frequencies are totally negated by the crude crossover network / dynamic drivers. It's like claiming a jumping mouse is causing a pyramid to shake.
One part of a scientific test double blind test would be to measure the cables. Don't assume they'd necessarily measure the same while possibly sounding different. Some expensive high end speaker cable manufacturers indeed do things to their cables that can change the measured performance. So *of course* it would be possible to hear a difference in that case.
Some high end speaker cable designers do things to their cables that raise or lower their impedance or otherwise affect the signal delivered to the speakers, especially varying with frequency. The cable's impedance might go up with frequency, for example.
So if there is an audible difference identified by the listeners, do measurements at the speaker terminals of both cables. Discuss which cable delivers the more measurably accurate signal, if one does.
Did the blind test and couldn't hear much difference, I preferred A. Which means it's not worth for me to spend money on cables.
I can hear a slight difference in sound depending on the color socks I'm wearing. I find black ankle length give the music a more laidback transparent sound stage with nuanced high mids (or is it mid highs)? I also detect a subtle oakiness with velvety chocolate undertones. But then again It might just be time for my medication.
All kidding aside, Just found your channel. Been binge watching your videos and learning a lot. Thanks for the great content. I just subscribed.
This is the best explanation but you won't change those people.
Which ones?
All he did was give an opinion, there is no science or test to back it up.
Another great video Thomas, thanks
Very welcome