Yea, when i defend joel's death as a plot point in this game i usually use red dead redemption 1 & 2. The main character in BOTH those games die, and in the first game the main character gets shot 50 fucking times. But for some reason no one complains about it , yet for last of us 2 it's the only thing people seem to care about. Personally I think their deaths were warranted, and same for joel.
@@cryinmonkey2003 Arthur and John died redeeming themselves, that's where the "Redemption" part of the title comes into play. While Arthur was dying of an incurable disease, he decided to save as many lives as he could, and tried his damnedest to save John and his family. John died in a similar manner, but his redemption came in not running away. All he ever did was run, hell he ditched his son and his gang for a year for no apparent reason. But in Red Dead Redemption, even though he was forced to do it, he killed his former allies, now enemies, in doing so he redeemed himself. Joel definitely did NOT redeem himself, hell he said he'd save Ellie and kill the doctors and soldiers A SECOND TIME
Montaholic Yea that’s why the game is not called Joel dead redemption, I’m just arguing that a main character dying in a video game shouldn’t cause such an outrage. Joel fucked up BIG TIME, dude literally threw the only chance for a cure out the window because he was selfish and didn’t want to lose another “daughter” like he did with Sarah. I think he had death coming. Shit from the moment I saw the first trailer for this game I knew one of them was gonna die because of what Joel did.
@@cryinmonkey2003 Joel's death is justified in that he's done plenty of things in his past that can come back to bite him. However, it is not justified in that it was done by the daughter of a no name NPC who was retconned into being an all around great guy (who would still kill a girl without letting her know of the procedure and avoids the question of "what if it was your daughter?"). She brutally tortures Joel without hesitation or consideration about the fact that he saved her moments ago. Comparing his death to John's and Arthur's is a terrible idea because they went out with dignity. The government never gave an indication about upholding their deal with John and he gets murdered, but not before he gets a final moment with his family. It helps that his son actually avenges his father, unlike Ellie, so we at least get John's final heroic act and the catharsis of vengeance for his death. Arthur's death was inevitable, and he accepts it. He learns his lesson and reconciles with the life he's lived. He dies on his own terms, quietly. Most people knew, going in, that Joel would probably die but not in the first 2 hours by a person he just saved and a group of armed strangers he allowed himself to be surrounded by. His actions leading up to his death were out of character, John's and Arthur's weren't.
Was Arthur a good person? That's one of the reasons I love RDR2, is because even more than a year after playing through it, I can still sit back with myself and debate that just in my head.
The rest of the video are points lifted from the Last of Us subreddit. "Joel isn't a beloved character" may be the only original thing he said in this.
It really shows how dumb internet arguments are. Like the dude used a wrong word, but all the stuff he says afterwards, depicts pretty clearly what word he *meant* to say. He meant to say „morally good“ or „hero“ and its so fucking obvious. So everybody just realizes it was a small writing mistake and moves on from such an inconsequential little error right? Nope the entire fucking comment section is only about that one incredibly irrelevant thing.
I mean titling ur opinion video calling other people dumb for having a different opinion isn’t a strong or smart argument so I’d imagine this guy’s opinion is actually quite false
@@GloomyNooby the only reason he called them dumb is because of how closed minded the game is, if ur gonna have an opinion about something than make sure you know everything that ur talking about
The problem I see is that they're bad people but the thing is the world they live in made them bad. Joel has lost a daughter and lives in a post apocalyptic world and has to do what he has to to survive. Arthur also has to, he's constantly breaking the law to survive and has police on his back end 24/7. They're not beloved characters In my opinion but the reason they aren't is justified. Their world is just awful in their vision and that what made them bad people
Preach the good word. I think the video is great when it comes to editing and overall quality. I completely disagree with him on the quality of the game though. It’s a 3.5 for me.
Yeah but the point still stands. Just because people like the character doesn't mean he deserves a heroic death, in alla and all fairness as much as I also like the character Joel got what he deserved and the circumstances of his death fit the themes of both stories, Joel would've done the exact same thing if he was after revenge so it doesn't make sense why his deeds should be treated any differently. People cry all day about fan service but then claim that a character who's done truly evil things should get a better ending just because they like them.
@Charlie Don't Surf but those people also say the games theme is forgiveness so when Joel dies right after saving Abby from being eaten alive it’s called bad writing since we all know the games theme wasn’t revenge 😂
Ok if Marcus wants to say that Joel isn’t a beloved character because he is a bad person, doesn’t that mean that Darth Vader and The Joker aren’t beloved characters either?
Bro if you actually hear his argument you would know what he meant. The point is, he is a very morally ambiguous character and not all the things he did were good. A lot of people were thinking that he is a 'beloved character' in the sense that he could do no wrong. But he did do wrong, and lots of it. So many people are super nitpicky about his exact wording that its just so ridiculous. Actually listen.
but would you be unhappy if those two died? and also no it wouldn't be fair to put those two together with joel since he is the protagonist and is more sympathizable, much like a more morally good walter white (although if you think about it he doomed the world the one time he did a bad thing but since it's just a singular action that was based on good intentions that's okay apparently in our dumb human minds)
@Donny’s NWO yeah, they kill for their own survival, but there are still morals, just that they are not respected. but joel didn't kill for his own survival rather he killed out of selfishness and compassion, and as a result he prevented the vaccine from coming out, and killed a whole lot of people that was trying to do good
"Joel is not a beloved character, Joel is a violent anti hero." Joel is a violent anti hero, but he is also a beloved character both those things are true
Dude was an asshole from the very beginning. He straight up tells ellie that he was just like all the bandits they've been killing throughout the game. His own brother hates him and doesn't trust him when they reunte. And then in the end he lies to ellie, cause he doesn't respect her wishes and only sees her as a daughter replacement. I always hated the character when I played the game. I don't know how anyone could like this asshole character
@@surferOS101 holy shit, okay you just said some really stupid stuff. First of all, no joel does not start the game as an asshole. He starts with a loving relationship with his daughter. Secondly, he tells ellie he did similar things to the bandits, but not out of pleasure but out of survival which was also to keep tommy alive which we know becuz he literally says this to tommy. Also tommy does not hate him at all and does in fact still trust joel, their relationship is just strained becuz of the things they had to do to survive. Lastly you are somewhat correct in that joel is being selfish when it comes to ellie, but again its not like hes doing that becuz hes a psycho, he didnt even want to “replace his daughter” for like half the game, thats where like 90% of the tension between the two comes from, i can’t believe i even have to type that becuz its like almost the whole point of the game. Just because you fail to understand extremely basic elements of the game does not mean joel is an asshole, please think more critically.
@@kevinarriaza1951 all I hear is Joel fanboy who can’t think critically and gets angry very easily You pull this “survival” answer when it’s obvious that’s just an excuse And the end of the day he still acted like those bandits and he still lied to Ellie in the end proving he never really cared about her as a person but more as a daughter replacement. He’s an asshole who goes out of his way to be unnecessarily brutal to everyone. I never said he started this game as an asshole, don’t know where you got that from I understand you love the character, but it’s obvious your blinded by your fanboyism He was an asshole through and through, and he got what he deserved in the second game. Please think more critically
I agree with a lot of the stuff in this video, except for the “beloved character” argument. Just because Joel is a person who does fucked up things doesn’t mean he isn’t a loved character. Him doing bad things makes him more realistic and interesting to the player. Respect your opinion tho
Cosmonaut commonly despises any hero or protagonist doing anything that could be seen as ‘bad’, makes you think he demands all protagonists to be like superman, inherently good, when that’s not possible because unless you take his story and copy it word for word, all characters will have different challenges and flaws, but importantly, wont be totally good, at least most characters
Definition of beloved character: A character we all love, and the main reason we play a video game. Not the definition of beloved character: A character who is pure good and eats honey.
@@dustinmoore3779 Mate I like the Punisher but in stories where he dies I'm not upset for him. And frankly it's hilarious that your mind would go there since the entire point of the Punisher is that revenge and violence are a never ending cycle, biggest difference is that Frank never chooses to end it.
@@1Seanmb Yet that is his character and that is his choice, you can relate and understand the decisions he made in the bubble of his own fictional universe and reality. So of course you're upset when they die, you had 7 years to accept Joel's decision and decide "Of all the shitty things he did this ain't too bad"
i think he means that in the context of the world of the Last of Us, Joel is hated because he took away humanity’s chance for cure, not that people don’t like Joel as a character
Bruceiah James, Yes another person who is clearly dumb and clearly doesnt understand the reason why the first game was so good. Joel and Ellie. Take away Joel, explain how the story and plot in the first game is not good without Joel. Joel is one of the many reasons why people love the Last of us.
I wouldn’t say Abby’s story is about going to get medicine for the little girl, it’s about redemption and trying to do right by saving the kids. She doesn’t feel redeemed by revenge but when she finally saves Lev she feels whole again.
Yeah it’s a backdrop for the story of Abby getting closer to Lev. Kinda like how getting Ellie to the Fireflies is a backdrop of Joel getting closer to Ellie
Lol they couldn’t come up with better writing so they made up the doctor having a kid then trying to copy paste a Joel an Ellie story onto other characters let’s see how many more Joel and Ellie’s we get in part 3 if Neil can come up with another sht story
Man I feel bad for Marcus. He generally made a good point about Joel’s character but honestly worded it terribly. Joel is a character beloved by those close to him and fans of the series but in the world of TLOU Joel is, for the most part, a bad dude with a ton of enemies.
One of the reasons they didn't go with the "Tess Hunts Joel" plot for TLOU1 was explicitly because it undermined the world if people could go on revenge quests. This is why nobody does it, because you could turn a wrong corner and end up with a face full of spores, a stray bullet, a piece of rebar, or one of the series-defining zombies. Nobody has to worry about that anymore unless the plot contrives it. His point is bad, because it's said without a second thought that this game has definitively changed for the worse, and raises more problems as a result of the changes. Admittedly, though, it's not *his* point, since he just stole it from the Last of Us subreddit to get this video out on time.
@@crazyinsane500 Yeah, but why would you care about that if the people you are hunting took the one person you cared so deeply for before you could say goodbye to them?
@@treesap9789 You mean like Joel from the first game who's shown not five minutes after Sarah's death living under FEDRA rule, the same guys who had her killed? IE: Showing he prioritized survival over revenge. The *first* game in the first few minutes shows how people have new priorities beyond melodrama.
@@crazyinsane500 No more like when Joel tried to kill Henry out of spite for being left for dead despite being saved by him. One could say Joel wanted revenge...but nah let's ignore the angy papa with daughter issues was angy at times lol
@@justinianthe1st790 Might want to play the first game before you try to act like you have a retort. Joel didn't go out of his way to hunt Henry down, it was just convenient.
"Joel isn't a beloved character. He's an antihero." Some of the best and most appreciated characters in all of media are antiheroes. What even makes an antihero exempt from being beloved in the first place?
While beloved does literally mean dearly loved, I think Marcus was meaning that people shouldn't be that upset about Joel's death. He was very well written in the first game, as a selfish, mass murdering, torturing psycho, with clearly visible goals and people enjoy his character because of such. His example of Winnie the Pooh showed beloved as 'incapable of doing wrong' meant that Joel should not be beloved. Joel has plenty of people who hate him, and I know people who actively can't get more than half way through the game because they see where it's going, and can't support his decision.
i think the story isn‘t about revenge nor is it about forgiveness. in my opinion it just raises the question of how far we are „allowed“ to go for a good cause. there are tons of stories about the revenge trope and in these stories the actions of the character are alwqys portrayed as a good thing. maybe some grey areas here and there but generally the character taking revenge is in the right and is doing the right thing. but this game reverses our perspective so we can ask ourselves: „is it okay to do something horrible out of a good intention?“ or better put „is it okay to do horrible things out of love to another person?“
the story is a woke dumpster fire of killing off the 'male lead.' there is nothing profound about it. ask neil about the meetings about "diversity". leftism is a mind virus and it infected what could have been an amazing sequel. what an absolute shitshow
Revenge is never a "good intention". I think the story is about dehumanizing others, cycle of violence (revenge) and finally forgiveness. Dehumanizing aspect is hammered home by mirroring the mindset of the "hero" (Ellie) to the mindset of the "bad guys" (Abby and her crew) and showing that both are doing basically the same thing. Why should we then consider other one as a hero and other one as a villain?
@@digittoll7591 but no the main character. I mean even the flashbacks were put because naugthy dog devs felt like cowards after realising Joel was killed at the beginning
@@digittoll7591 also means that he was a character and thre mad that he was killed off for a stupid reason that made no sense and that the main character a great person got killed for no reason and it didnt have any impact to the story exept for ruining a character that was already established
I dunno, I found it refreshing and believable that Abby's story didn't constantly mesh into Ellie's and was it's own thing. Too many stories try to have characters lives intertwining like it's fate. That Abby's journey to realize that revenge had brought her no peace and her meeting Lem was detached from Ellie hunting her down made the moments where their paths did cross again more impactful, in my opinion.
Lev helped her heal in the way revenge didn’t. And because she was healing, she spared ellie and Dina as she learned revenge is pointless. Ellie didn’t learn that and threw away relationships with the people who would help her heal. I understood why both stories were separate, but I do think alternating each of their chapters would be a better way to do it
@@arnavrajadhyax2580only problem with alternating is that you’re going to have different abilities unlocked for each character, and have to switch often would get really annoying i feel. also being with abby for an extended period of time lets you relate to her a bit better instead of just waiting to get back to ellie since you know it’s coming, making the moment they finally fight all the more engaging
D_B studios it’s HOW he was killed, most of us knew Joel would die in this game but the way they handled it was just plain disrespectful to his character while forcing us to play as his killer expecting us to feel sorry for her terrible backstory that was crafted out of thin air.
No, no, no, you are like the 16th person I've seen this fly right over their head. He meant in the universe like how Winnie the Pooh in his Universe he is beloved but in Joel's Universe he is not.
@@arutzuki2491 Jesus stop saying that like you are about to make nd go bankrupt. It's cringe and lame, especially after seeing that it's selling like crazy
The two halves of the story tie in thematically. Yeah it would've been nice to see the two plots link up a bit more closely but I personally didn't mind it. I really liked Abby's story playing in opposition to Ellie's. Ellie does nothing but distance herself from her loved ones and go down darker paths with each choice she makes whilst Abby makes new friends and tries to make amends with old ones only to get rebuffed. I found it interesting.
"Joel is not a beloved character." "He's a violent antihero." So your point is that, an antihero or a villain whom you understand and connect with cannot be a beloved character just cuz? Plus almost everyone considers Joel as a villain or an antihero, not a straight up hero.
jesus christ, the main point is that Joel kinda deserved what he got in the end, he was in the wrong the whole time. Stop with these mental gymnastics to avoid the whole point.
@@yourwrongimright101_69 and I'm saying your comment is irrelevant to the whole video. Plus that's not what he meant when he said Joel wasn't a beloved character, he's just saying that Joel didn't deserve a "honorable death" like most people think. because he's not a hero and not a good man at all.
@@MrGister9999 it's not irrelevant to the video at all. That's literally what he said, word after word. Why doesn't he deserve a good death? His actions are justified. He's not a good man but he tries to be one. He's a good father and he did what most parents would do. Most people may not find it heroic but it's not villainous.
Joel’s a hero, the firefly’s plan was beyond stupid and if successful would have been some recruitment tool to strengthen there own faction. The firefly’s in the game were portrayed as pretty morally dubious and not really that trustworthy, and surprise, surprise, the want Ellie their sacrificial lamb and 86th Joel. Let em burn
Can we all agree that what Ellie said in the 1st game "Everyone I've ever cared about has either died or left me, everyone except for you" that hit HARD after this game
@@toch0418 His point was that Joel isn't a huge beloved character in overall pop culture. He's a character a lot of people loved from a game 7 years ago and that's about it. If the new spiderman game opened with Spiderman being brutally murdered and Miles avenging him a lot more people would be outraged than for Joel because Spiderman is a beloved character by millions.
Re: Abby story, I like your comment on wanting them to be more connected. I think it would have been nice, I remember feeling a bit dull during chunks of her story. The flashbacks and story with her friends I did enjoy though. A theme that stuck out to me was "your enemies are people too". Forcing me to play and Abby and experience her very human memories made me feel that and want to apply that theme to my own life. The quest she undertakes during her three days I think is a repeat of "your enimies are people too". Had that found a way to tie that more into Ellie's story like you mentioned, that could be quite the hit
Abby's story isn't dispensable, it shows what would've happened if Ellie had gone through with it at the end of the game. Abby gets her revenge but it leaves her hollowed out and transformed into a killing machine with nothing to show for it. The two stories form a complete circle since Abby's story essentially starts at the (alternate) end of Ellie's. The many callbacks and parallels between Abby/Lev and Joel/Ellie, both subtle and overt, serve to reinforce the idea that Ellie is setting herself out on a path to emulate Joel and thus her final decision (a "schism" ending like the first game) drives home that she's coming into herself as an adult by moving on.
FutureJoker2012 exactly! Just like John Marston, Arthur Morgan, and the three GTA 5 antagonists, you don’t have to be “good” to be a beloved character.
Ah the classic "You guys just don't get it" statement. Then never being able to explain how we don't get it. I mean "Joel isn't a beloved character", seriously??
Imagine this. The game starts of with you as Abby, the story is framed as a typical post apocalyptic revenge story of finding who killed her family or whatever, just some basic plot that is not uncommon to games. Joel and Ellie aren't mentioned at all. For the first section, all of the gameplay is with Abby. The Last of Us 2 is framed as a story completely different and independent from the first game, fooling the player into thinking the Last of Us is more of an anthology series on survivors in the post apocalypse rather than one whole story. You learn more about Abby, and become more attached to her character and past as well as the people she is friends with, as you have with Joel and Ellie in the previous game. You play through like 5 hours of normal exploring, piecing together clues and following a trail of this mystery man who killed your family. Then, you come across Joel all of a sudden in the wilderness, work together to survive a horde. Hopefully making you think "Pretty cool that they did a cameo for Joel from the last game" but think nothing more of it. Then he introduces himself, and the story plays out as it did in this game, with both protagonists killing beloved characters from both sides, hurting characters you've built relationships with and cared about the whole game(s). I think that framing provides a more gripping story about revenge, forgiveness and actually teaches the lesson of it clearly, seeing as you may have actually cared about the the characters before they died. And this way, you actually empathize with Abby more, rather than just hating her outright from the get-go.
Change her design up a bit to not make Abby built like a roided up barbie doll but still rough(like Tess), then boom a solid plot because the player is already aware of Joel's and eille's stories therefore understanding the tension and intensity everyone has against each other.
Yeah, honestly Abby's story should have been its own game in between part 1 and 2. Abby's game should have ended right when they first get eyes on Jackson.
One thing I didn't like was the extreme violence. I get that the point is to show how horrible all that stuff is but at some point it stops being a lesson and just becomes torture porn
Extreme violence? Why picking on this game ? Rdr2(mortal Kombat: hold my beer) has the same violence too... Plus it's written most of the times +18 on the cover or whatever, you want kitty games go play Super Mario. And did you actually compared this Piece of art to torture porn or whatever? Really? I hope they add more violence(if it's a violent game) and things become super fascinating as graphic design develops(well not more violence, more realistic... every time). It's like sayin GAME OF THRONES is a bad stupid tv show because of its violence, have you ever said that? Everyone's going CreaZy ¯\_ಠ_ಠ_/¯
@@XnonTheGodd It just becomes kinda edgy when you have tons of fun blowing people up and calling them 'fucker' before they die, and then afterward the message is "VioLEnCe BaD". I have no choice but to brutally murder people, and it's super fun too, so the message kinda gets lost. I won't feel bad just because npc #5 screams "BARRY!!", when I blow someone up. It is honestly just weird that Ellie spares Abby at the end, after she kills dozens of people to get to her.
@@atom8248 i understand, the thing is that in games with actual story, devs have to create a fun environment, for example in mass effect Andromeda you just go around killing people but the storyline is actually that Ryder is the good guy or whatever... In these games you outta close your eyes through the gameplay (the gameplay is only for the fun), and follow the cutscenes for the actual story, but even through that Ellie kills a lot of people that had little to do with Joel's death... So maybe the ending was a bit off and the massage was not as good but with a bit of change the overall Story and gameplay and graphics and... Were good!!! For whatever reason saying it was too violence (literally rdr2 n mortal Kombat: hold my beer) is as stupid as fuck
@@XnonTheGodd yeah, I think naughty dog just kinda messed up. The gameplay is fun, but a thing that they talked a lot about when the first game was coming out was ludonarrative dissonance (which is a hard word to spell) which this game has a lot of. It is a story with two characters and you change perspective with flashbacks etc. I think they could of cut a lot of the Abby parts (since they wreck the pacing) and rearranged the story a bit and it would have been waaay better. They should have made multiple endings imo, based on what you decide to do in the story.
@@atom8248 agreed, i only disagree with the last part, if we would've given a choice then it wasn't Ellie's story or journey, it was the player's, which holds you deeply responsible for choices(that you should've made during the game if choosing was an option) that you may never wanted to choose because of ambiguity in options(choices)...
@Evan Gellion When someone says something is/isn't bad, we ARE talking about their opinion. "Bad" isn't an objective word, so you must be talking about an opinion.
@Evan Gellion You went through kindergarten, right? You're aware that some statements are facts and some are opinions, right? Something can't be objectively bad. When you say something is bad, THAT'S AN OPINION. If you aren't capable of hearing someone say "X is bad" and understanding that the thing they said is an opinion, you're an idiot.
It's blatantly clear that Evan and John either had to repeat third grade or were out sick when their class was taught the difference between a fact and an opinion
You would surprised with how upset people get when they have to engage in a stealth system that isn't kinda janky. I think that shows in the lack of stealth games we have in this generation of games. I love stealth but I know a lot of people younger than me that really cannot stand it. Especially if it is done so well that it requires real effort.
@@HamJams Weird, but I guess I get what you're saying. I think what he really should of said is that he's one of the few that likes challenging stealth.
“If Ellie gets attacked by dogs and nearly dies, she will kill the dog to survive!” Yeah so would I. If it’s me or the dog I choose me because i live longer than 15 years and have ambitions greater than just eating and fucking.
You paid money to play a game where you kill dogs. That makes you sound like a straight up psychopath. That is one of the major indicators of a serial killer too btw, they start out killing animals when they are younger. Why the fuck would any healthy minded person want to play something like this? It's like paying to drink poison.
I really loved the flashbacks and Abby's story a lot because it just fleshed out the world. I never at any point thought "why doesn't Ellie know about the cult" because it didn't have anything to do with her, it was fleshing out Abby's character and showing the war that her faction was experiencing.
I scrolled down here to see the response to the title. Because goddamm that title is going to start a flame war. I don't even care about this game I just wanna see the flame war.
I get exactly what you’re saying. This asshole thinks just bc Joel does some pretty bad shit doesn’t make him a beloved character. Arthur Morgan, John Marston, Carl Johnson, Niko Bellic, etc they’re not perfect but we love them and they’re our beloved characters
@@anonymous99632 My goodness. Please separate some of the large paragraphs. I thought this a copy-pasted thesis or something. Okay. I disagree with the 2nd part. I am pretty sure everyone knows WHY people are upset. I agree with the part that Druckman had no idea what to write. He said in an interview the story is structured for us to kill Abby. They changed their minds halfway. So that's why the story is... fucked...
@@anonymous99632 First of all I think everyone knew that Joel will die in the sequel. I mean Joel just killed thousands of fireflies and to not get the consequence is stupid in my opinion. However the execution was one of the worse I could ever find in a game. No foreshadowing or justice to the character. One of the weirdest thing I find is Joel believing someone when Joel himself knows what kind of world it is. I mean Joel tried to ram a man with a truck when some guy was in the middle of the road asking for help. Even tommy should know much as Joel since he is one of the character that was with joel and survived. There are many ways that abby could have caught joel by his own such as kidnapping one of the settlement people. Or ruining the power station and giving joel the warning for him to come alone. However, they should result it with pure luck of abby just somehow getting to joel and tommy by going into a snow where there are thousands of zombies and by pure luck lures joel and tommy the two guys who knew the brutality the world can bring just by trusting a stranger. Which also brings the fact that abby doesn't get no consequences whatsoever when she is going to a blizzard where thousands of zombies will try to kill you. These kind of action shows plot holes and poor writing. I would rather root for a character who thinks well and tries to overcome the challenge by choices that I could relate and understand not someone who gets everything by pure luck. Lastly the reason why your second point is people understand why ellie did not kill abby. Its just that when we are playing as ellie she goes through a lot troubles and even doing immoral acts such as killing a pregnant person which I found very annoying and depressing. I mean it also felt like a waste of time to go to the end and have one of the worst execution. We could have seen a sign of hesitation or even a sign of regret once in while but we see none and we only see the end where ellie is crying. I mean one of the worst execution we could've ever had and as you can see no foreshadowing or building up to this decision. There is a reason why it is hated and many agrees to it because me personally I felt a waste of time playing it.
Your point that people shouldn’t be mad that a character dies because they were a bad person doesn’t make much sense, then how you explain why people like characters such as Arthur Morgan Guts Walter white Deadpool Vaas Darth Vader Bill cypher Eren jaeger And many many more
19:10 "What I do care about, is how people talk about the media that they consume. Because currently the conversation about this game are really not fun to engage with. And I'd like for that to change" Says the guy who titled his video "You Guys Are Just Dumb"... Dude, I agree with a lot of your points in this video, but this final "preaching peace" at the end is so disingenuous...
@Nagger I mean I know dictatorship and all that as the reason, but I would have personally leaned into it. I mean what do you think of when you think Winnie the pooh? he's kind, he's friendly he's not the smartest character, but he does have his moments of insight. If you want people to see you as a leader they have to see you as likeable to be around and suddenly taking away Winnie the pooh isn't gonna do that.
Also I have no problem with Joel dying. It's how they killed him and then present Abby as a nice person. When she literally tortured Joel. She isn't a good person.
@@king24lakerskobe theres no such thing as a good reason for killing someone. Everyone in the tlou universe is selfish. Its a kill or be killed situation.
"Lesbian murder hobo rampage" 😂 perfect description of Ellies arc in this game lol. Love you're review though, I adore the story in this game and I'm glad you're able to look past the flaws at the greater themes and how well they permeate into the world as you described it. I totally agree that this game is far from flawless, the pacing is all over the place and those tensionless sequences in the early game make the replayability of the game drop significantly after the 2nd play through. I always appreciate your thoughts and this was a great review.
I didn’t understand the purpose of Abby’s section of the story at first either, but then I took the time to think and look back on it after finishing the game. As you said, the game’s focus isn’t completely about revenge, but forgiveness as well. Now, when we start playing as Abby for the first time, we’re on a revenge quest with her. She actually brings her revenge to fruition, which is the whole reason that Ellie’s journey begins in the first place. Abby’s story is about the aftermath of revenge and the damages it causes. Her relationships became complicated, the nightmares didn’t stop. She’s stuck in the same spot she was before. Killing Joel didn’t fix anything. Her life just became a bit worse But when we encounter Lev and Yara, things begin to change. Abby’s way of healing wasn’t revenge, but through an act of kindness. After spending years as a remorseless scar killer, she finds solace in helping others. Its why she goes back for them, because she couldn’t forgive herself if she did. Abby’s learning to forgive herself and heal as a person, juxtaposed to Ellie who is doing the complete opposite. I get that its still hard to come around by, considering Abby is a character we have no prior connection to, like Joel and Ellie. But I don’t think it was a waste of time. Abby’s story might not change the narrative, but helps flesh out Abby’s character and what the message is driving towards
agreed, Abby is getting over it in the theatre, and looks at least somewhat happy after she left Seattle. Ellie is fucking miserable all the time bc she can't move on
“Joel saves Ellie because he does not want to lose another daughter” yeah and that character flaw is why people have him as a beloved character Lemme clarify that I’m not upset that Joel even dies in the game but about how this story as a whole was delivered
I and many others were confused by the ending because, after all the hundreds of people that ellie had killed without hesitation, she decided not to kill abby. This is an inconsistent choice and is completely detached from what we saw in gameplay, as well as making all of those people's deaths for nothing.
"Ellie has to learn to forgive Abby" Yeah, after killing everyone Abby knows. But y'know forgiveness takes time, only Abby can be forgiven. Not everyone else that Ellie killed along the way, they don't matter. Abby is the only one that deserves forgiveness.
Yes. They do in fact in Ellie's head over the course of the game do not matter because they were not her end goal. And I think it's safe to say that after everything, Ellie is regretful about the shit she does over the course of the game. It feels like you're being sarcastic to make a point but I can't see why.
@@ClareAmel The games message rings hollow if it doesn't even bring in the gameplay into account for story moments. How am I supposed to get the message of forgiveness if you can't even show mercy once by gameplay and have it matter. Instead you're forced to kill hundreds and I'm supposed to think that it's good writing when Abby is the only one that's forgiven and Ellie "regrets" her actions. Ps. I'm not trying to be an ass or come off that way, this game just makes me heated. Sorry if I was rude in this response.
All the context that's inconvenient to you: Abby was currently trying to get away and help Lev, not attack Ellie. Ellie's self defense (against deranged cultists who shot her immediately for no reason, slavers and child murderers) =/= premeditated waterboarding. She felt worse with every friend of Abby she killed, so that point actually proves you wrong in the eyes of anyone who knows what a character arc is. "But y'know forgiveness takes time, only Abby can be forgiven."-Huh... no? The game emphasizes her forgiving Joel a lot more than Abby? So she's not the only one, making you a liar?
A beloved character does not have to be a good person, just a character that's beloved...by fans. Doesn't matter if Joel killed tens of hundreds of people, or that he's hated by other characters in the game. As long as he is loved by fans, he is a beloved character.
i don't think he meant people don't like him but that he _shouldn't_ be liked like that? also, the second part "you can't kill a beloved character" was part of the reason he brought that up. that if you kill a fan favorite, even if it was done well, people aren't gonna like it.
Honestly I loved the game overall. I hated the ending and some of the story beats. But also the other things people hate about this game I honestly don't hate about this game. I loved the characters (yes Abby too. She was actually my favorite), I loved the gameplay, and I loved the story.for the first two acts. Hate comments come at me.
Joel isn’t a good person but we still sided with him and hated Abby. Because in a world like TLOU, for almost everyone, it was no longer about what’s right or wrong-It’s about who you’re with. And we were with Joel. That’s why no matter how real and justified Abby’s revenge was, we still wanted her dead because Joel was “family”. In the end, Ellie proves that it ISN’T just about who you’re with, and that right CAN still exist in the world of TLOU. Abby also proves this when she’s given a second chance at a different path with Lev. The same chance Joel got when he met Ellie all those years ago.
idk if marcus reads the comments but please play the remastered version and upload the stream to the second channel, i'd love to see whether your opinion has changed at all
@@krasmasov6852 Would’ve been more in character if they tricked Ellie or snuck up on them instead of Joel blindly trusting them. Nothing wrong with Joel getting brutally killed in an act of vengeance, but when it’s done in a way that doesn’t fit his characterization then it’s bad writing.
Yeah I agree with a lot of his video, but saying Joel isn’t a beloved character is CRAZY. Now is he “hero”, that can be debatable, the moral ambiguity is what makes the story that much more interesting imo
Ichigo Kurusaki Yes he did . He states that in the first 2 minutes of the video and gives the gameplay 6/10 and the story 10/10 . You can constructively criticize the video and express your issues with it , but please stop words in other people’s mouths .
@@samuelolivier3792 He explained that Joel murders people just because he wants to like he's some kind of serial killer. It seems quite likely Cosmo used the words he wanted to use.
One thing I loved about the story was how the audience feels ellie's pain and understands her want for revenge but we go along, at least for me, the conflict becomes exhausting in the sense that I wondered and asked how far does this need to go? Until you lose everything, ellie? Will it be worth it? I had to force myself through the fight with abby because I genuinely wanted ellie to walk away. I think that was the point of the story, as well, and I absolutely love the story for that.
YES i felt the same way is killing probably hundreds of people and losing many friends along the way worth while just don't do it and i think ellie kind of saw joel in abby she let ellie and dina live if lev wasnt their i dont know what she would of done but either way i think the story was like vilonce wasnt the answer all the time and wont give you satisfaction everytime and forgivness is sometimes the answer and when abby killed joel you can see on her face she immediatley regretted it her dad wouldn't of wanted her to do that and she didnt feel satisfied
and lev is like what ellie was to joel but abbys ellie in a way doing anything to get them out of this shitty situation no matter the costs and feeling as if she owed it to lev
I don’t think that people are mad that Joel dies, i think people are mad about how he died Also I think people dislike the ending because the person who stops their revenge is left with nothing and the person who does get revenge hasn’t really lost anything, or at least not as much as Ellie
He also went into why it makes sense how he dies. Joel doomed all of humanity and killed a shit ton of good people. So it makes sense for him to die just how he killed others. Unceremoniously.
So hear me out. I’ve been thinking a lot by the “Joel letting his guard down” thing. We clearly see Abby getting revenge did something to her: she went completely overboard to save the Seraphites she used to hate and even more overboard to get the medicine the girl needed. So imagine how doing what he did must have taken a tool on Joel, evey life he sees taken by the infected is on his hands, for years and years. I’m not saying its justified being more trusting in other people but it definitively it would change the way he handles them.
I think every single one of those people is inventing a vague reason to mask just being mad that Joel died. Do we *really* think any version of a person traumatically hurt by his actions finding him and killing him would satisfy these people?
OriginOfSleeperguy it would of had a lot of impact if we didn’t have to stop on a ellie cliffhanger and play abbys backstory that no one gives two shits about. I love ellie’s part but come on you can’t defend abbys shit gameplay
First of all, you cannot compare movies and videogames, the other is interactive whilst the other is not. Choice is always appraised if done well and there is none in TLOU2.
Wrong. He left her with a life worth living, worth fighting for. She forgives him and she forgives herself before laying him and her grief to rest, and then goes to Jackson to see if Dina could try to forgive her.
Funny part is, some fans of this game actually thinks the only reason we dislike the game is either we didn't like how Joel died or because we're a transphobic lmao
I think its the fact the game clearly wants you to care about new characters who I didnt really care for. I wasn't even that mad about Joel, just disappointed at most.
@@jasonalv7436 "thinks the only reason we dislike the game is either we didn't like how Joel died or because we're a transphobic lmao" Also: Thousands of 0s were spammed on Metacritic before almost anyone had even gotten to the title screen, and the reasons you've provided are the reasons why those people posted 0s without playing it. lmao People are not saying that everyone who dislikes TLOU2 dislikes it for those reasons, but objectively, there are a lot of people who do. There are huge political TH-camrs like TheQuartering who made around 100 videos getting offended over TLOU2 without even playing it (a common theme), or the original. *His audience sent so many death threats to the staff that he had to acknowledge it - you don't have to downplay valid criticism of others just because you also don't like a video-game* In one of his videos where he portrayed Druckmann as being terrible ... TheQuartering admitted at the end that Druckmann had actually just tried to console him about the loss of his dog. haha. The whole thing was a very profitable grift. He said that Joel dies after 5 hours and his audience didn't call him out on it because they didn't play it either.
I think what makes Joel distinct from being just any old anti-hero or evil protagonist is that we, as the player, walked with him throughout his entire ordeal with the outbreak and have developed a level of understanding for his motives. His whole character arc revolves around a father and his grief over the death of his only child. Of course that’s going to weigh heavily on his mind and view the world in a more pessimistic light. imho, Many criminals today pursue the life of crime because they feel the big bad world has left them with a chip on their shoulder. Yes, they steal for money and they murder because they have a score to settle with a rival gang, but they feel the world screwed them over just as Joel feels “the world” (through the cop’s actions) heartlessly murdered his daughter in cold blood. He IS the villain to society that interfered with the doctors’ attempts to find a cure for everyone, but his motivations aren’t evil. He’s still the hero in his story, because he’s trying to save the life of his daughter-figure at the expense of benefiting the dark, cruel world that took his daughter’s life.
This is honestly just a bad review with a painfully smug tone. If you can’t understand how other players feel towards a game, that doesn’t mean their feelings are wrongs. Plus Ellie forgiving Abby doesn’t work thematically because the game decides to force you to kill dozens of people to get to her and that negates the impact of what the writers are going for.
To be fair, Cosmo has a bad habit of just plagiarizing entire paragraphs from subreddits. The fucker's gonna get his comeuppance one day, exposed as a Filip Miucin-esque plagiarist, and it'll be glorious. And nobody'd have cottoned on if he didn't have such a shit take for this.
Saying Joel isn’t a ‘beloved’ character based on the fact that he’s done ‘bad things’ in a post-apocalyptic world is as DUMB as saying Rick Grimes isn’t a ‘beloved’ character in The Walking Dead.
He is not beloved, it's like Walter White in breaking bad. He is not a beloved character. He is an inciting, intriguing and interesting character. That does NOT mean he is a beloved character. A lot of people did not like Joel, as they didn't like Walter White. That didn't make the show / games any less good.
@@josiahfour25 true but I still feel joel is a beloved character as they set him up to immediately being a character to sympathise with the death of his daughter
Josiah David Well you’re definitely not speaking for the majority with that opinion. There’s a reason why everyone is so overwhelmingly pissed off with what was done with Joel and it’s not because he’s ‘interesting’.
@@bashirsheikh7322 Not only that, he's interesting to watch. We've grown to like him despite his morality. Same goes for characters like Walter White. He's not a good person, but I love him as a character.
yeh but as the audience, you wernt forced to see goku get tortured by a golf club and get killed off early just to give gohan a narrative for hate and revenge. You also werent forced for 10 hours straight to watch frieza leading up to that point.
Well, I don't love him just like I don't love Cersei or Darth Vader. I love to hate them, is defferent. I love Joel, but I am not blind to the point I don't see that he makes bad choices.
@@matthewbouton5121 I'm drawing a parallel between Frieza and Joel though, not Abby. I like Joel, as a character, despite of what he did. Which doesn't mean I think he's a good person.
Genuinely one of the dumbest takes of this controversy that has ever occurred. But thanks for putting your thoughts out there as I needed to show my friend who just completed the game, as she genuinely believed that no one could defend this game because they would have to be, in her words, "...surgically braindead to do so."
Exactly! I always thought the message of TLOU initially was that humanity didn’t deserve the cure. That the way humanity responded to the pandemic with the birth of groups like the fireflies showed that even if they had a cure, it wasn’t guaranteed that things would improve (it was even implied initially that the cure might not actually be developed successfully even with Ellie’s sacrifice.
People conveniently forget this fact when shitting on Joel. Joel is 150% correct. If I was in his position? I'd have done the same thing. People also forget that Joel goes into the room to get Ellie and the Dr pulls his scalpel on him saying he won't let him take her.
@@ya_boi_gabe9984 They retconned her to be furious with Joel and retconned the procedure into being a 100% chance of success so that they could make him an objectively evil villain who deserves to die slowly, when the act was depicted as morally gray in the first game.
Either way a cure or a vaccine for a fungal infection is impossible . Ellie just got lucky that the cordyceps mutated making her immune so yeah Joel did the right thin anyway
This whole video was pretentious as fuck. What is up with people thinking it's deep and nuanced to sum up Joel's whole character arc with "he was a shitty person". This shows neither depth nor critical thinking on their part. TLOU ended with the moral ambiguity of Joel's decision to save Ellie's life, it's not as simple as people are making it out to be.
yesididitverywell People are still hating on this game for surface stuff. His video may be extreme, but the point still stands. Joel is not some hero who deserves a heroic death. He is a human being who can die normally, and even brutally, like every person in this world. At the end of the day, there are people idolizing Joel and there are people thinking that Joel is a heinous villain. Both of them are wrong.
@@aashrithmadagiri6711 Naughty Dog left the ending open for interpretation. Joel was just a blue collar guy struggling to make ends meet. He went through every parent's worst nightmare, which left him broken, but still a survivor. Society took extreme measures to try and neutralize infection spread, even if it meant killing innocent men, women and children (like Sarah). The Fireflies were no different because they also adopted a whatever-it-takes strategy to fight the pandemic. Kill a child? Sure. Marlene never informed Ellie that the operation would be fatal and Ellie was never given the chance to decide. Joel was confronted with the same situation as Sarah, but now with Ellie. Few fathers would willingly give up their child... even for the greater good. Sorry, Joel was right when saying, "Find another way." Even Tommy empathized and agreed that he would've done the same, like most of us. I sure wouldn't want to lose a child - even under those extreme circumstances. This game was all about survival - taking care of you and your own. Find another way. In philosophy, there's the classic question of whether it's moral to take one innocent life for the greater good of society. If you support the non-consent murder of Ellie, then, similarly, you also support eugenics, experimentation on prisoners, capital punishment, genocide and any number of atrocities that benefit the 'greater good'. It's a slippery slope. I know you probably don't believe those things, but you understand the dilemma and ripple effect. The Fireflies found other immune people, experimented on them, killed them and still had no cure. Sure, society would love to kill Ellie and harvest her brain. But it doesn't make it morally right. Marlene promised Ellie's mother that she'd look after her daughter. She dropped the ball. Someone else picked it up and moved with hell and fury. Joel wasn't a hero and he wasn't a villain either. Joel didn't deserve to die a hero wearing cool shades with a rising fireball behind him. And he didn't deserve this. He deserved better. *Halley Gross:* The thing that Neil and the studio really cared about is _honoring Ellie and Joel_ specifically, and their journey as characters. That's not exactly what happened, now is it? Naughty dog has a different definition of 'honor', especially when a character, who looks like Druckmann, spits on the corpse of this beloved franchise. LoU2 was revealed during PlayStation Experience 2016. If people knew that Joel would be _unplayable_ and killed _early, without a fight_ like a _dog_ by a _random_ revenge character related to a _run-of-the-mill_ NPC, then people would be absolutely livid. Many fans aren't excited to pal around with Dina, let alone play as Abby to hunt and assault Ellie because she's now the 'bad guy'. Naughty Dog subverted expectations like an earthquake and fractured the fanbase. Druckmann openly (and nervously) admitted that this story was going to be very divisive. Suicide mission accomplished.
This game cemented my belief that way too many people have the media literacy of a child. You have to forcefeed them a story and even then they still don't understand it.
Exactly. Half of the hatebase says shit like "revenge bad' is such an obvious thing and the pretentious writers think they were profound for making it the theme of the story" and the other half of the hatebase thinks "actually, revenge good and the game sucks because I didn't get to kill Abby at the end >:("
this game is too obviously trying to make you like Abby and then refuses to explore her as a character. It's all surface level and you invent deeper meanings and act like people are dumb for not getting it
"Joel isn't a beloved character, he is a violent anti-hero" The most famous violent anti-hero (Deadpool) is one of the most beloved characters of all times, I fail to see the conection between those points.
Except Deadpool’s universe is supposed to be funny and super hero-ish while the last of us’ world is grounded in reality. Your scope of judgement should be changed based on the IP you’re examining.
@@aashrithmadagiri6711 Joel isn't even an anti-hero, he's a hero depending on your own morality. MANY people would do the exact same thing that he did.
@@aashrithmadagiri6711 I don't see how someone with a skewed morality is automatically deemed not able to a beloved character. Walter White is a straight up villain at the end of the show and he's one of the most beloved TV characters ever.
"I'm one of the few people who like when stealth is done well in video games" There are people who don't like good stealth? Like they prefer poor stealth mechanics?
@@UncleBenton 🤣when you say it like that I see how it sounds dumb. But tbh there are people that do not like stealth whatsoever, and prefer it when it’s simple and quick
it is, but it also shows that even revenge can be fucking destroying y and literally make you go crazy. Poor Ellie. I hope the 3rd game make her justice.
Saying it is a revenge story implies Ellie needs to kill Abby at the end which is why people say it's not. It's a story about revenge but not really a revenge story.
@@xZero9Ox I guess that's why it feels so fucked up, they try to use a theme subversion from Cycles of Revenge to some kind of Forgiveness? But yeah, they do it in the last 10 minutes after 25 hours of mass murder. I like to compare this game to RDR2 because both protagonists die and you're forced to play another character. So in RDR2 you start the game thinking it's about the gang being a family and the importance of being togheter as one in the world we (they) live. But the gang gradually starts falling apart with people dying or leaving as the game turns into Arthur's Redemption story after he's seen all the bad he's done throughout his life. No, he doesn't stop doing 'bad' things, but he tries so fucking hard that all you want for him is to finally go to his "beach house". But there's no normal life for a man like him and he sacrifices himself so John could live the life he never had. RDR2 shows really how you do theme subversion. TLOU 2 does that in the ending simply because they seemed to have forgotten that it takes time to convince the players the story is not about what they rooted for in the beginning. But they make you play 25 hours of revenge for Ellie to see Joel playing the guitar and give up on killing after mass murderer
2023 rewatch but i noticed something around 10:50 marcus said something about games taking away the players choice in the game to “contextualize the character” and i thought about Marvel Spider-Man 2018 when aunt may was on her deathbed and we as the player base thought we had a choice to save aunt may or save new york WE DIDNT EVEN GET A PROMPT TO DO THAT cos that’s not who peter parker is thats not spider-man more than half the player base wanted to save aunt may but we had no choice in the matter so as a result aunt may dies cos peter made the choice to save new york cos that’s who he is
The whole time Ellie goes though the game not caring about what she doing but when come down to the moment she can kill abby she doesn’t that where the game draw the line for me. Ellie had no reason to spare abby considering all that she when through
I think you’re missing the point, she just didn’t need to. Abby spared Ellie two times because she understood her. Ellie and Abby are the same, victims to a cycle of violence started by Joel. Ellie saw the moment that her and Joel had forgiveness and realised that there was no reason to kill Abby, all that would do is continue the cycle when she could end it. Ellie had the moment to choose not to do it and she took it to move on guilt free.
@@pandaboi7832 only problem is this falls apart when you think about all the NPCs Ellie and Abby killed. Anyone of those NPCs could have a loved one or daughter who now wants revenge on Abby or Ellie, so the cycle isn’t really broken at all. Hell Abby is the daughter of an NPC from the first game.
I also think your argument about Joel's "beloved" character status was intentioned well but worded weirdly. I'd agree that killing off a central character is not a betrayal to your audience, but saying that the central character in question isn't beloved because he/she does evil shit is not a good argument IMO. What made this moment powerful was BECAUSE Joel was so beloved - so you might've conflated 'beloved' with 'heroic', which is definitely understandable.
Pretty sure people are confliced with his decisions, and it's not some unanimous "oh gosh joel is such a cuddly beloved bear". Loved character sure, but beloved is a bit too strong here.
@@muuubiee No he's beloved. The fan outrage is enough evidence of that. Joel has killed many people, but he only ever killed out of one necessity or another, and he never took pleasure in it. We understand why Joel had to do what he did. Beloved doesn't mean someone is innocent or cuddly. It means someone who is dearly loved or much loved, which Joel very much was.
@@Shin_FTW Lots of people don't agree with what joel did. If basically everyone agreed with what he did, and had no hard feelings to him, he'd be beloved.
Shinku no Yami [Not for kids] Joel didn’t always kill out of necessity. He was selfish and held no remorse for the people he killed. They were just targets to be taken out. And granted, a lot of who he killed deserved it. But to say he didn’t enjoy killing is a lie and to say it was always necessary is also a lie. He is an amazing character but a terrible terrible person. Abby had every reason and every right to kill him.
@@loukes7758 Terrible person is also an overstatement. Part of the reason of why he's so beloved is that you can understand his motivation. His traumas (with the death of his daughter) and insecurities, and also the 20 years he has spent killing and trying to survive with his brother during the outbreak. Honestly, to say he ENJOYED killing has yet to be shown in the games. Tortured, yes, but out of enjoyment? Absolutely not. He's definitely battle hardended, but his motives are why lots of people think he's not terrible at all. Any of us could become Joel, as in trying to survive by any means necessary in an apocalypse while trying to defend the people you love. But does that actually turn you into a terrible person? You become a survivor, honestly Though Abby also isn't terrible, but people will obviously like Darth Vader more than Phasma or Rey, even though he's a literal nightmare. Though to show Abby brutally and cowardly killing a BELOVED character, independently of what he has done, is something Neil Druckmann was counting on to create outrage, which if fine but you know
I mean, I do agree that their are some people who didn’t really “get” what this game was about, but saying that Joel is not a beloved character because he’s not nice is kinda dumb. Not gonna lie.
After watching I think he did take it like; "Joel was considered a good character". I think you can like a bad character and acknowledge their flaws. But that should come with the consequences of that character's actions.
I think you're wrong on the Joel argument, Joel is in our standards, a horrible person, a murdering, torturing, violent person but Naughty Dog made us love him besides his flaws.
![[Live] : ONE 167 วันนี้!! "ตะวันฉาย vs โจ"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/D9_dvfIa6Ao/mqdefault.jpg)
I would call Arthur Morgan a beloved character for the people that played the game, doesn’t mean he is a good person
Yea, when i defend joel's death as a plot point in this game i usually use red dead redemption 1 & 2. The main character in BOTH those games die, and in the first game the main character gets shot 50 fucking times. But for some reason no one complains about it , yet for last of us 2 it's the only thing people seem to care about. Personally I think their deaths were warranted, and same for joel.
@@cryinmonkey2003 Arthur and John died redeeming themselves, that's where the "Redemption" part of the title comes into play. While Arthur was dying of an incurable disease, he decided to save as many lives as he could, and tried his damnedest to save John and his family. John died in a similar manner, but his redemption came in not running away. All he ever did was run, hell he ditched his son and his gang for a year for no apparent reason. But in Red Dead Redemption, even though he was forced to do it, he killed his former allies, now enemies, in doing so he redeemed himself. Joel definitely did NOT redeem himself, hell he said he'd save Ellie and kill the doctors and soldiers A SECOND TIME
Montaholic Yea that’s why the game is not called Joel dead redemption, I’m just arguing that a main character dying in a video game shouldn’t cause such an outrage. Joel fucked up BIG TIME, dude literally threw the only chance for a cure out the window because he was selfish and didn’t want to lose another “daughter” like he did with Sarah. I think he had death coming. Shit from the moment I saw the first trailer for this game I knew one of them was gonna die because of what Joel did.
@@cryinmonkey2003 Joel's death is justified in that he's done plenty of things in his past that can come back to bite him. However, it is not justified in that it was done by the daughter of a no name NPC who was retconned into being an all around great guy (who would still kill a girl without letting her know of the procedure and avoids the question of "what if it was your daughter?"). She brutally tortures Joel without hesitation or consideration about the fact that he saved her moments ago. Comparing his death to John's and Arthur's is a terrible idea because they went out with dignity. The government never gave an indication about upholding their deal with John and he gets murdered, but not before he gets a final moment with his family. It helps that his son actually avenges his father, unlike Ellie, so we at least get John's final heroic act and the catharsis of vengeance for his death. Arthur's death was inevitable, and he accepts it. He learns his lesson and reconciles with the life he's lived. He dies on his own terms, quietly. Most people knew, going in, that Joel would probably die but not in the first 2 hours by a person he just saved and a group of armed strangers he allowed himself to be surrounded by. His actions leading up to his death were out of character, John's and Arthur's weren't.
Was Arthur a good person? That's one of the reasons I love RDR2, is because even more than a year after playing through it, I can still sit back with myself and debate that just in my head.
*opens up the comment section*
"This is where the fun begins"
Oh yeah, I literally just clicked on it for the ree mode comments
@@gdtacos7082 I know its amazing
Hello there
th-cam.com/video/fUIPdfFc3zw/w-d-xo.html
Indeed 😂
I like how out of everything in this 20-minute video, the only thing people latched on to was "Joel isn't a beloved character"
The rest of the video are points lifted from the Last of Us subreddit.
"Joel isn't a beloved character" may be the only original thing he said in this.
It really shows how dumb internet arguments are. Like the dude used a wrong word, but all the stuff he says afterwards, depicts pretty clearly what word he *meant* to say. He meant to say „morally good“ or „hero“ and its so fucking obvious. So everybody just realizes it was a small writing mistake and moves on from such an inconsequential little error right? Nope the entire fucking comment section is only about that one incredibly irrelevant thing.
@@crazyinsane500 No thought is original. Dismissing the video because other people also thought the same is not very logical.
I mean titling ur opinion video calling other people dumb for having a different opinion isn’t a strong or smart argument so I’d imagine this guy’s opinion is actually quite false
@@GloomyNooby the only reason he called them dumb is because of how closed minded the game is, if ur gonna have an opinion about something than make sure you know everything that ur talking about
Wow, this video has no dislikes. I'm sure that means that everyone agrees with Marcus' points.
This video is utter shite. Some of the worst arguments I've ever heard
Too bad the only criticism we can see is the comment section.
@@helenline1790 the dudes pretentious as fuck and I don't even know if he likes or hates the game yet.
"Oh let's be nice in a post Apocalypse environment", no wonder TWD is so damn good telling the harsh reality!
@@user-vp5xf6fm5p He said at the end that its a mixed bag. I also dont get the whole pretentious thing, hes just giving his opinion
“Joel isn’t a good person, why are people mad that he’s dead”
*Arthur Morgan has entered the chat*
Arthur was a better dude given the time period
Joker has enter the chat
But you do get to make choices throughout the game that will make a good person. Or not
The problem I see is that they're bad people but the thing is the world they live in made them bad. Joel has lost a daughter and lives in a post apocalyptic world and has to do what he has to to survive. Arthur also has to, he's constantly breaking the law to survive and has police on his back end 24/7. They're not beloved characters In my opinion but the reason they aren't is justified. Their world is just awful in their vision and that what made them bad people
Because he was a likable character
There is a difference between a good person and a good character.
Preach the good word. I think the video is great when it comes to editing and overall quality. I completely disagree with him on the quality of the game though. It’s a 3.5 for me.
@@ponquin why you talking about people pooping
I’m sure that’s what he meant. He just worded it poorly.
Yeah but the point still stands. Just because people like the character doesn't mean he deserves a heroic death, in alla and all fairness as much as I also like the character Joel got what he deserved and the circumstances of his death fit the themes of both stories, Joel would've done the exact same thing if he was after revenge so it doesn't make sense why his deeds should be treated any differently. People cry all day about fan service but then claim that a character who's done truly evil things should get a better ending just because they like them.
@Charlie Don't Surf but those people also say the games theme is forgiveness so when Joel dies right after saving Abby from being eaten alive it’s called bad writing since we all know the games theme wasn’t revenge 😂
The insane comparison of Joel to Winnie the Pooh is a timeless classic ☠️☠️☠️
Ok if Marcus wants to say that Joel isn’t a beloved character because he is a bad person, doesn’t that mean that Darth Vader and The Joker aren’t beloved characters either?
Bro if you actually hear his argument you would know what he meant. The point is, he is a very morally ambiguous character and not all the things he did were good. A lot of people were thinking that he is a 'beloved character' in the sense that he could do no wrong. But he did do wrong, and lots of it.
So many people are super nitpicky about his exact wording that its just so ridiculous. Actually listen.
@@pigstuck8152 so if I said "spectacular spider man isn't a good show cause it's overrated" would you be happy about that
Disingenuous. He’s just saying Joel is a pos and people are acting like he didn’t deserve to die.
but would you be unhappy if those two died? and also no it wouldn't be fair to put those two together with joel since he is the protagonist and is more sympathizable, much like a more morally good walter white (although if you think about it he doomed the world the one time he did a bad thing but since it's just a singular action that was based on good intentions that's okay apparently in our dumb human minds)
@Donny’s NWO yeah, they kill for their own survival, but there are still morals, just that they are not respected. but joel didn't kill for his own survival rather he killed out of selfishness and compassion, and as a result he prevented the vaccine from coming out, and killed a whole lot of people that was trying to do good
Markus: "Winnie the Poo is a beloved character."
China: ".............."
Sophisticated Winnie the Pooh: I think you mean People's Republic of China.
THERE IS NOT A CHANCE THAT I'M INTERESTED IN THIS BEAR
a shit
Tbf people in china do love their leader
The Lord Doctor Its odd cause Xi doesn’t actually do much, most of its the people he appoints who make decisions .
"Joel is not a beloved character, Joel is a violent anti hero."
Joel is a violent anti hero, but he is also a beloved character both those things are true
Exactly.
Dude was an asshole from the very beginning. He straight up tells ellie that he was just like all the bandits they've been killing throughout the game. His own brother hates him and doesn't trust him when they reunte. And then in the end he lies to ellie, cause he doesn't respect her wishes and only sees her as a daughter replacement.
I always hated the character when I played the game.
I don't know how anyone could like this asshole character
Like the Punisher
@@surferOS101 holy shit, okay you just said some really stupid stuff. First of all, no joel does not start the game as an asshole. He starts with a loving relationship with his daughter. Secondly, he tells ellie he did similar things to the bandits, but not out of pleasure but out of survival which was also to keep tommy alive which we know becuz he literally says this to tommy. Also tommy does not hate him at all and does in fact still trust joel, their relationship is just strained becuz of the things they had to do to survive. Lastly you are somewhat correct in that joel is being selfish when it comes to ellie, but again its not like hes doing that becuz hes a psycho, he didnt even want to “replace his daughter” for like half the game, thats where like 90% of the tension between the two comes from, i can’t believe i even have to type that becuz its like almost the whole point of the game.
Just because you fail to understand extremely basic elements of the game does not mean joel is an asshole, please think more critically.
@@kevinarriaza1951 all I hear is Joel fanboy who can’t think critically and gets angry very easily
You pull this “survival” answer when it’s obvious that’s just an excuse
And the end of the day he still acted like those bandits and he still lied to Ellie in the end proving he never really cared about her as a person but more as a daughter replacement. He’s an asshole who goes out of his way to be unnecessarily brutal to everyone. I never said he started this game as an asshole, don’t know where you got that from
I understand you love the character, but it’s obvious your blinded by your fanboyism
He was an asshole through and through, and he got what he deserved in the second game. Please think more critically
I agree with a lot of the stuff in this video, except for the “beloved character” argument. Just because Joel is a person who does fucked up things doesn’t mean he isn’t a loved character. Him doing bad things makes him more realistic and interesting to the player. Respect your opinion tho
I agree tbf I think if he changed it to Joel had it coming because he wasn’t a hero then people might’ve accepted it.
he's saying he doesn't deserve to be a beloved character not that he isn't
phournem nah I think he just didn't really understand what a beloved character is
@@Mdmbchdr love it when your fanbase has to try to reword your bad phrasing XD
Cosmonaut commonly despises any hero or protagonist doing anything that could be seen as ‘bad’, makes you think he demands all protagonists to be like superman, inherently good, when that’s not possible because unless you take his story and copy it word for word, all characters will have different challenges and flaws, but importantly, wont be totally good, at least most characters
Definition of beloved character: A character we all love, and the main reason we play a video game.
Not the definition of beloved character: A character who is pure good and eats honey.
I think the Pooh comparison wasn't supposed to be taken at face value. I think Marcus is saying that Joel doesn't deserve to be a beloved character
I play video games for the video games.. Not for characters lol. Story hoes are ruining gaming.
Bro you better not be talking shit about Winnie the Pooh like that
*PLEASE STOP DEFENDING THE LAST OF US 2!*
th-cam.com/video/5FRwMREuEbU/w-d-xo.html
@@tanelviil9149 yeah I ain't watching a boring 11 minute video, can you give me the TL;DR on why you think the game is bad
"Joel isn't a beloved character, he's an anti-hero"
I mean deadpool is a pretty shitty person but a lot of people love him
Ok so one of the reasons people love him is because he is hella funny
And tommy Shelby too and a lot of so called "protagonists" of gangster films that what I love about it
Punisher too , and dexter ..anti hero's
@@dustinmoore3779 Mate I like the Punisher but in stories where he dies I'm not upset for him. And frankly it's hilarious that your mind would go there since the entire point of the Punisher is that revenge and violence are a never ending cycle, biggest difference is that Frank never chooses to end it.
@@1Seanmb Yet that is his character and that is his choice, you can relate and understand the decisions he made in the bubble of his own fictional universe and reality. So of course you're upset when they die, you had 7 years to accept Joel's decision and decide "Of all the shitty things he did this ain't too bad"
"Joel is not a beloved character".
Are you trying to start a war?
Bruceiah James joel was the most love character
i think he means that in the context of the world of the Last of Us, Joel is hated because he took away humanity’s chance for cure, not that people don’t like Joel as a character
Bruceiah James ah yes, *another* person who doesn’t have a dictionary
Bruceiah James He is so beyond wrong that it’s insane. He clearly doesn’t give a damn about Joel and made many invalid points in this video
Bruceiah James, Yes another person who is clearly dumb and clearly doesnt understand the reason why the first game was so good. Joel and Ellie. Take away Joel, explain how the story and plot in the first game is not good without Joel. Joel is one of the many reasons why people love the Last of us.
I wouldn’t say Abby’s story is about going to get medicine for the little girl, it’s about redemption and trying to do right by saving the kids. She doesn’t feel redeemed by revenge but when she finally saves Lev she feels whole again.
little boy
@@songbird5842 oh no i was referring to yara, my bad if i wasn’t clear :)
Yeah it’s a backdrop for the story of Abby getting closer to Lev. Kinda like how getting Ellie to the Fireflies is a backdrop of Joel getting closer to Ellie
@@bubble.mp4 yes i noticed this on my second play through when abby was carrying lev down to the boats like joel carried ellie through the hospital
Lol they couldn’t come up with better writing so they made up the doctor having a kid then trying to copy paste a Joel an Ellie story onto other characters let’s see how many more Joel and Ellie’s we get in part 3 if Neil can come up with another sht story
Man I feel bad for Marcus. He generally made a good point about Joel’s character but honestly worded it terribly. Joel is a character beloved by those close to him and fans of the series but in the world of TLOU Joel is, for the most part, a bad dude with a ton of enemies.
One of the reasons they didn't go with the "Tess Hunts Joel" plot for TLOU1 was explicitly because it undermined the world if people could go on revenge quests. This is why nobody does it, because you could turn a wrong corner and end up with a face full of spores, a stray bullet, a piece of rebar, or one of the series-defining zombies. Nobody has to worry about that anymore unless the plot contrives it.
His point is bad, because it's said without a second thought that this game has definitively changed for the worse, and raises more problems as a result of the changes. Admittedly, though, it's not *his* point, since he just stole it from the Last of Us subreddit to get this video out on time.
@@crazyinsane500 Yeah, but why would you care about that if the people you are hunting took the one person you cared so deeply for before you could say goodbye to them?
@@treesap9789 You mean like Joel from the first game who's shown not five minutes after Sarah's death living under FEDRA rule, the same guys who had her killed? IE: Showing he prioritized survival over revenge.
The *first* game in the first few minutes shows how people have new priorities beyond melodrama.
@@crazyinsane500 No more like when Joel tried to kill Henry out of spite for being left for dead despite being saved by him.
One could say Joel wanted revenge...but nah let's ignore the angy papa with daughter issues was angy at times lol
@@justinianthe1st790 Might want to play the first game before you try to act like you have a retort.
Joel didn't go out of his way to hunt Henry down, it was just convenient.
Joel isn’t a beloved hero
But he’s for sure a beloved character
ahahahahaha
yeah but thats to us. not to the story lol
I think your kinda psychotic
@@solomonbristow7201 how is he psychotic?
Joel ain’t the good guy, just the guy you play as
"Joel isn't a beloved character. He's an antihero."
Some of the best and most appreciated characters in all of media are antiheroes. What even makes an antihero exempt from being beloved in the first place?
While beloved does literally mean dearly loved, I think Marcus was meaning that people shouldn't be that upset about Joel's death. He was very well written in the first game, as a selfish, mass murdering, torturing psycho, with clearly visible goals and people enjoy his character because of such. His example of Winnie the Pooh showed beloved as 'incapable of doing wrong' meant that Joel should not be beloved. Joel has plenty of people who hate him, and I know people who actively can't get more than half way through the game because they see where it's going, and can't support his decision.
@@crazydude610 Then he needs to use a different word than "beloved" if he meant it in a different way than its definition.... not hard to understand.
@@crazydude610 He's not mass murdering in the first game he's trying to survive from other people trying to kill him and Ellie
@@michaelcaserta9897 EXACTLY
@@mumkeymaan4600
Wow good job you insult somebody just because you don't agree with their opinion and you're so smart.
just because Joel is an anti hero doesn’t mean he isn’t a beloved character
Otherwise, Red Hood is a bad character
No
@@Mr.Rex-en5nt what I meant by is like if this guy says anti heroes are not beloved characters then red hood would not be a fan favorite character
oh my bad, sorry
@@Mr.Rex-en5nt nah it’s ok, sometimes I get confused while reading comments too
i think the story isn‘t about revenge nor is it about forgiveness. in my opinion it just raises the question of how far we are „allowed“ to go for a good cause.
there are tons of stories about the revenge trope and in these stories the actions of the character are alwqys portrayed as a good thing. maybe some grey areas here and there but generally the character taking revenge is in the right and is doing the right thing. but this game reverses our perspective so we can ask ourselves: „is it okay to do something horrible out of a good intention?“ or better put „is it okay to do horrible things out of love to another person?“
the game is 100% about revenge. Revenge is never a good thing. Revenge is never the right thing.
What's the good intention in revenge bruh 🗿
the story is a woke dumpster fire of killing off the 'male lead.' there is nothing profound about it.
ask neil about the meetings about "diversity". leftism is a mind virus and it infected what could have been an amazing sequel. what an absolute shitshow
Revenge is never a "good intention". I think the story is about dehumanizing others, cycle of violence (revenge) and finally forgiveness.
Dehumanizing aspect is hammered home by mirroring the mindset of the "hero" (Ellie) to the mindset of the "bad guys" (Abby and her crew) and showing that both are doing basically the same thing. Why should we then consider other one as a hero and other one as a villain?
@@Reject101Personal what a stupid black and white comment
Joel is the perfect example that the protagonist of a story doesn’t necessarily have to a good guy.
@@digittoll7591 Doesn't mean you can't make a story with him not dying.
Like Walter white and he really is a loved character Like joel
@@digittoll7591 but no the main character. I mean even the flashbacks were put because naugthy dog devs felt like cowards after realising Joel was killed at the beginning
arthur morgan to but ya u right
@@digittoll7591 also means that he was a character and thre mad that he was killed off for a stupid reason that made no sense and that the main character a great person got killed for no reason and it didnt have any impact to the story exept for ruining a character that was already established
This comment section’s gonna be a war zone
no pun intended too
Exactly. You here with popcorn too?
Let's keep it civil fellas
Battle Rifle boo. Don’t be civil we came to be entertained.
The only thing that this game has going for it are the memes and the outrage, it's more entertaining than the game.
I dunno, I found it refreshing and believable that Abby's story didn't constantly mesh into Ellie's and was it's own thing. Too many stories try to have characters lives intertwining like it's fate. That Abby's journey to realize that revenge had brought her no peace and her meeting Lem was detached from Ellie hunting her down made the moments where their paths did cross again more impactful, in my opinion.
Lev helped her heal in the way revenge didn’t. And because she was healing, she spared ellie and Dina as she learned revenge is pointless. Ellie didn’t learn that and threw away relationships with the people who would help her heal. I understood why both stories were separate, but I do think alternating each of their chapters would be a better way to do it
@@arnavrajadhyax2580only problem with alternating is that you’re going to have different abilities unlocked for each character, and have to switch often would get really annoying i feel. also being with abby for an extended period of time lets you relate to her a bit better instead of just waiting to get back to ellie since you know it’s coming, making the moment they finally fight all the more engaging
Saying Joel isn’t a beloved character just because he’s flawed is ridiculous.
yeh doesnt beloved mean loved?
You don't need to be a morally good character to be a beloved character. Look at all the anti heroes throughout fiction
That doesn’t mean he can’t be killed
D_B studios it’s HOW he was killed, most of us knew Joel would die in this game but the way they handled it was just plain disrespectful to his character while forcing us to play as his killer expecting us to feel sorry for her terrible backstory that was crafted out of thin air.
Joel is not invincible he is a regular fucking old man
No, no, no, you are like the 16th person I've seen this fly right over their head. He meant in the universe like how Winnie the Pooh in his Universe he is beloved but in Joel's Universe he is not.
@@animationdramanation5730 no he definitely meant to the fans, no one in this universe is beloved by all.
I don’t even really think The Last of Us needed a sequel.
Ye me to but it made MONEY so...
Yeah, I'm not gonna buy it.
I did. I wanted to know what the consequences of Joel's actions were.
So you don't need to play it either
@@arutzuki2491 Jesus stop saying that like you are about to make nd go bankrupt. It's cringe and lame, especially after seeing that it's selling like crazy
The two halves of the story tie in thematically. Yeah it would've been nice to see the two plots link up a bit more closely but I personally didn't mind it. I really liked Abby's story playing in opposition to Ellie's. Ellie does nothing but distance herself from her loved ones and go down darker paths with each choice she makes whilst Abby makes new friends and tries to make amends with old ones only to get rebuffed. I found it interesting.
"Joel is not a beloved character."
"He's a violent antihero."
So your point is that, an antihero or a villain whom you understand and connect with cannot be a beloved character just cuz? Plus almost everyone considers Joel as a villain or an antihero, not a straight up hero.
jesus christ, the main point is that Joel kinda deserved what he got in the end, he was in the wrong the whole time. Stop with these mental gymnastics to avoid the whole point.
@@MrGister9999 where did I say that he did something right? Plus you're comment is irrelevant to what I said.
@@yourwrongimright101_69 and I'm saying your comment is irrelevant to the whole video. Plus that's not what he meant when he said Joel wasn't a beloved character, he's just saying that Joel didn't deserve a "honorable death" like most people think.
because he's not a hero and not a good man at all.
@@MrGister9999 it's not irrelevant to the video at all. That's literally what he said, word after word. Why doesn't he deserve a good death? His actions are justified. He's not a good man but he tries to be one. He's a good father and he did what most parents would do. Most people may not find it heroic but it's not villainous.
Joel’s a hero, the firefly’s plan was beyond stupid and if successful would have been some recruitment tool to strengthen there own faction. The firefly’s in the game were portrayed as pretty morally dubious and not really that trustworthy, and surprise, surprise, the want Ellie their sacrificial lamb and 86th Joel. Let em burn
Can we all agree that what Ellie said in the 1st game "Everyone I've ever cared about has either died or left me, everyone except for you" that hit HARD after this game
Also her biggest fear is ending up alone.. and she ended up alone.
I'm a big fan of Abby. So when she eventually did end up losing people, that hurt me even more.
@@SuperMurray2009 what is wrong with you
It was what I was thinking about the entire game.
I shut my brain off after she let abby live so i dont remember
Cosmonaut: "Joel isn't a beloved character"
Comment section: *It's treason, then*
I like how he shitted on the Star Wars prequels and now we use memes from the movies when we disagree with him fiercely
@@anakinskywalker3292
its because we did not know what we had and what we were getting after it ...
I love Joel but u wouldn't say he is a beloved character in that world i mean the dude doomed the world by getting rid of any hopes of a cure.
@@ronaldragupathi952 yeah but in OUR universe he is one
@@toch0418 His point was that Joel isn't a huge beloved character in overall pop culture. He's a character a lot of people loved from a game 7 years ago and that's about it.
If the new spiderman game opened with Spiderman being brutally murdered and Miles avenging him a lot more people would be outraged than for Joel because Spiderman is a beloved character by millions.
Re: Abby story, I like your comment on wanting them to be more connected. I think it would have been nice, I remember feeling a bit dull during chunks of her story. The flashbacks and story with her friends I did enjoy though. A theme that stuck out to me was "your enemies are people too". Forcing me to play and Abby and experience her very human memories made me feel that and want to apply that theme to my own life. The quest she undertakes during her three days I think is a repeat of "your enimies are people too". Had that found a way to tie that more into Ellie's story like you mentioned, that could be quite the hit
Abby's story isn't dispensable, it shows what would've happened if Ellie had gone through with it at the end of the game. Abby gets her revenge but it leaves her hollowed out and transformed into a killing machine with nothing to show for it. The two stories form a complete circle since Abby's story essentially starts at the (alternate) end of Ellie's. The many callbacks and parallels between Abby/Lev and Joel/Ellie, both subtle and overt, serve to reinforce the idea that Ellie is setting herself out on a path to emulate Joel and thus her final decision (a "schism" ending like the first game) drives home that she's coming into herself as an adult by moving on.
You get it
The Joker is 100% a beloved character
'Beloved' doesn't equal objectively good
FutureJoker2012 exactly! Just like John Marston, Arthur Morgan, and the three GTA 5 antagonists, you don’t have to be “good” to be a beloved character.
i mean, the joker is an objectively good villain. but i get what you mean.
@@wildcrochunter6724 and joel its objectively a good written character
Sebastardo specify who tho
@@RealMikeWazowski is john marston a bad person though?
"I didn't like the first game all that much"
"10/10 story with 6/10 gameplay"
So, you liked it?
Right? I’m a fan but I would only give it
Story 8/10 (6 if not for Joel and Ellie
Gameplay 5/10
Yeah, this guy doesn't make much sense
Wtf he literally said he didn't
@@therealdonaldtrump4528 my point was that the combined score was a 16 out of 20, which is like a C+. That is a good score.
Geralt of Trivia wtf are u even talking about?
Ah the classic "You guys just don't get it" statement. Then never being able to explain how we don't get it.
I mean "Joel isn't a beloved character", seriously??
Been hearing it for 3 years. Sales show no one cared for this game.
Imagine this.
The game starts of with you as
Abby, the story is framed as a typical post apocalyptic revenge story of finding who killed her family or whatever, just some basic plot that is not uncommon to games. Joel and Ellie aren't mentioned at all. For the first section, all of the gameplay is with Abby. The Last of Us 2 is framed as a story completely different and independent from the first game, fooling the player into thinking the Last of Us is more of an anthology series on survivors in the post apocalypse rather than one whole story. You learn more about Abby, and become more attached to her character and past as well as the people she is friends with, as you have with Joel and Ellie in the previous game.
You play through like 5 hours of normal exploring, piecing together clues and following a trail of this mystery man who killed your family. Then, you come across Joel all of a sudden in the wilderness, work together to survive a horde. Hopefully making you think "Pretty cool that they did a cameo for Joel from the last game" but think nothing more of it.
Then he introduces himself, and the story plays out as it did in this game, with both protagonists killing beloved characters from both sides, hurting characters you've built relationships with and cared about the whole game(s).
I think that framing provides a more gripping story about revenge, forgiveness and actually teaches the lesson of it clearly, seeing as you may have actually cared about the the characters before they died. And this way, you actually empathize with Abby more, rather than just hating her outright from the get-go.
Change her design up a bit to not make Abby built like a roided up barbie doll but still rough(like Tess), then boom a solid plot because the player is already aware of Joel's and eille's stories therefore understanding the tension and intensity everyone has against each other.
This is much better
this would've been far better
Wouldn't work unless they advertised the game as NO JOEL AND ELLIE
Yeah, honestly Abby's story should have been its own game in between part 1 and 2. Abby's game should have ended right when they first get eyes on Jackson.
“Joel isn’t a beloved character”
Yeah, well that’s just like your opinion man
bill burr?
Like lmaoooo who gon tell him that literally everyone loves him
Skaterbyname 44 obviously a big Lebowski reference
@@clack185 "Fair enough!"
That isn't even an opinion that's just factually wrong
“Opening drawers and unlocking safes is not gameplay”
*gasps in Fallout*
Shocked in we happy few
Metro shits itself
Dies in Shenmue
Gasps in any game that involves looting
Self-immolates in Half-Life Alyx
One thing I didn't like was the extreme violence. I get that the point is to show how horrible all that stuff is but at some point it stops being a lesson and just becomes torture porn
Extreme violence? Why picking on this game ? Rdr2(mortal Kombat: hold my beer) has the same violence too... Plus it's written most of the times +18 on the cover or whatever, you want kitty games go play Super Mario. And did you actually compared this Piece of art to torture porn or whatever? Really? I hope they add more violence(if it's a violent game) and things become super fascinating as graphic design develops(well not more violence, more realistic... every time). It's like sayin GAME OF THRONES is a bad stupid tv show because of its violence, have you ever said that? Everyone's going CreaZy ¯\_ಠ_ಠ_/¯
@@XnonTheGodd It just becomes kinda edgy when you have tons of fun blowing people up and calling them 'fucker' before they die, and then afterward the message is "VioLEnCe BaD". I have no choice but to brutally murder people, and it's super fun too, so the message kinda gets lost. I won't feel bad just because npc #5 screams "BARRY!!", when I blow someone up. It is honestly just weird that Ellie spares Abby at the end, after she kills dozens of people to get to her.
@@atom8248 i understand, the thing is that in games with actual story, devs have to create a fun environment, for example in mass effect Andromeda you just go around killing people but the storyline is actually that Ryder is the good guy or whatever... In these games you outta close your eyes through the gameplay (the gameplay is only for the fun), and follow the cutscenes for the actual story, but even through that Ellie kills a lot of people that had little to do with Joel's death... So maybe the ending was a bit off and the massage was not as good but with a bit of change the overall Story and gameplay and graphics and... Were good!!! For whatever reason saying it was too violence (literally rdr2 n mortal Kombat: hold my beer) is as stupid as fuck
@@XnonTheGodd yeah, I think naughty dog just kinda messed up. The gameplay is fun, but a thing that they talked a lot about when the first game was coming out was ludonarrative dissonance (which is a hard word to spell) which this game has a lot of.
It is a story with two characters and you change perspective with flashbacks etc.
I think they could of cut a lot of the Abby parts (since they wreck the pacing) and rearranged the story a bit and it would have been waaay better.
They should have made multiple endings imo, based on what you decide to do in the story.
@@atom8248 agreed, i only disagree with the last part, if we would've given a choice then it wasn't Ellie's story or journey, it was the player's, which holds you deeply responsible for choices(that you should've made during the game if choosing was an option) that you may never wanted to choose because of ambiguity in options(choices)...
Cosmonaut I…I don’t think you know what beloved means…because…Joel is absolutely…100%…a beloved character
"Not that bad..." doesn't really make it sound like it's a worthy follow-up to the original.
He also said he didn’t love the first one, so it does.
@Evan Gellion When someone says something is/isn't bad, we ARE talking about their opinion. "Bad" isn't an objective word, so you must be talking about an opinion.
@indirect existence what about "good" or "bad" is inherently subjective? If I say, "character development is good," where is my bias?
@Evan Gellion You went through kindergarten, right? You're aware that some statements are facts and some are opinions, right? Something can't be objectively bad. When you say something is bad, THAT'S AN OPINION. If you aren't capable of hearing someone say "X is bad" and understanding that the thing they said is an opinion, you're an idiot.
It's blatantly clear that Evan and John either had to repeat third grade or were out sick when their class was taught the difference between a fact and an opinion
"I'm one of the few people who likes when stealth is done well in games." Don't most people?
No, just everyone
You would surprised with how upset people get when they have to engage in a stealth system that isn't kinda janky. I think that shows in the lack of stealth games we have in this generation of games. I love stealth but I know a lot of people younger than me that really cannot stand it. Especially if it is done so well that it requires real effort.
@@HamJams Weird, but I guess I get what you're saying. I think what he really should of said is that he's one of the few that likes challenging stealth.
I've seen people complain that the gunplay is bad and it's just a typical cover shooter... i'm like... dude... you're playing it wrong lol
@@reed1645 And yet the criticism is valid cause the gunplay IS bad. lol.
“If Ellie gets attacked by dogs and nearly dies, she will kill the dog to survive!”
Yeah so would I. If it’s me or the dog I choose me because i live longer than 15 years and have ambitions greater than just eating and fucking.
You paid money to play a game where you kill dogs. That makes you sound like a straight up psychopath. That is one of the major indicators of a serial killer too btw, they start out killing animals when they are younger. Why the fuck would any healthy minded person want to play something like this? It's like paying to drink poison.
Why is killing a dog in self defence in a video game even an issue? The things people have false outrage over is absurd
I really loved the flashbacks and Abby's story a lot because it just fleshed out the world. I never at any point thought "why doesn't Ellie know about the cult" because it didn't have anything to do with her, it was fleshing out Abby's character and showing the war that her faction was experiencing.
Damn people care about that? Why? 😂 😂 😂 I just don't get it
and she does know about the cult.. she talks about it with jessie and asked if he ran into them after she stomped a group of them
Me: Looks at like to dislike ratio
*Immediately scrolls down to the comments*
When there's more likes then dislikes🤡🤡
The comments are carrying this video.
If you think this ratio is bad someone should tell you about TH-cam rewind
It's earned tbh.
I scrolled down here to see the response to the title. Because goddamm that title is going to start a flame war. I don't even care about this game I just wanna see the flame war.
"Arthur Morgan is not a beloved character, he robs people, banks, and kills people."
I get exactly what you’re saying. This asshole thinks just bc Joel does some pretty bad shit doesn’t make him a beloved character. Arthur Morgan, John Marston, Carl Johnson, Niko Bellic, etc they’re not perfect but we love them and they’re our beloved characters
Prachurjya Pradip thats alot of words
John Barrientos anything gta lol
@@anonymous99632
My goodness. Please separate some of the large paragraphs. I thought this a copy-pasted thesis or something.
Okay. I disagree with the 2nd part. I am pretty sure everyone knows WHY people are upset. I agree with the part that Druckman had no idea what to write. He said in an interview the story is structured for us to kill Abby. They changed their minds halfway. So that's why the story is... fucked...
@@anonymous99632 First of all I think everyone knew that Joel will die in the sequel. I mean Joel just killed thousands of fireflies and to not get the consequence is stupid in my opinion. However the execution was one of the worse I could ever find in a game. No foreshadowing or justice to the character. One of the weirdest thing I find is Joel believing someone when Joel himself knows what kind of world it is. I mean Joel tried to ram a man with a truck when some guy was in the middle of the road asking for help. Even tommy should know much as Joel since he is one of the character that was with joel and survived.
There are many ways that abby could have caught joel by his own such as kidnapping one of the settlement people. Or ruining the power station and giving joel the warning for him to come alone. However, they should result it with pure luck of abby just somehow getting to joel and tommy by going into a snow where there are thousands of zombies and by pure luck lures joel and tommy the two guys who knew the brutality the world can bring just by trusting a stranger. Which also brings the fact that abby doesn't get no consequences whatsoever when she is going to a blizzard where thousands of zombies will try to kill you. These kind of action shows plot holes and poor writing. I would rather root for a character who thinks well and tries to overcome the challenge by choices that I could relate and understand not someone who gets everything by pure luck.
Lastly the reason why your second point is people understand why ellie did not kill abby. Its just that when we are playing as ellie she goes through a lot troubles and even doing immoral acts such as killing a pregnant person which I found very annoying and depressing. I mean it also felt like a waste of time to go to the end and have one of the worst execution. We could have seen a sign of hesitation or even a sign of regret once in while but we see none and we only see the end where ellie is crying. I mean one of the worst execution we could've ever had and as you can see no foreshadowing or building up to this decision. There is a reason why it is hated and many agrees to it because me personally I felt a waste of time playing it.
Your point that people shouldn’t be mad that a character dies because they were a bad person doesn’t make much sense, then how you explain why people like characters such as
Arthur Morgan
Guts
Walter white
Deadpool
Vaas
Darth Vader
Bill cypher
Eren jaeger
And many many more
19:10 "What I do care about, is how people talk about the media that they consume. Because currently the conversation about this game are really not fun to engage with. And I'd like for that to change" Says the guy who titled his video "You Guys Are Just Dumb"...
Dude, I agree with a lot of your points in this video, but this final "preaching peace" at the end is so disingenuous...
Average cosmo video: I have two opposite hypocritical opinions at the same time
'Winnie the Pooh is a beloved character.'
Not in China apparently.
He's the beloved leader
@@DippKlippGuy Winnie the Pooh in: Honey, Tea, and Subjugation
Why lol
@@DippKlippGuy Fucking hell I nearly spit out my drink reading that.
@Nagger I mean I know dictatorship and all that as the reason, but I would have personally leaned into it. I mean what do you think of when you think Winnie the pooh? he's kind, he's friendly he's not the smartest character, but he does have his moments of insight. If you want people to see you as a leader they have to see you as likeable to be around and suddenly taking away Winnie the pooh isn't gonna do that.
"Beloved character" doesn't mean hero. It's a character people love.
Also I have no problem with Joel dying. It's how they killed him and then present Abby as a nice person. When she literally tortured Joel. She isn't a good person.
@@KonradCurves yeah the context is dumb
Agreed lol its not that hard to comprehend.
@@KonradCurves she did it for a good reason. Just like how ellie wants revenge
@@king24lakerskobe theres no such thing as a good reason for killing someone.
Everyone in the tlou universe is selfish. Its a kill or be killed situation.
"Lesbian murder hobo rampage" 😂 perfect description of Ellies arc in this game lol. Love you're review though, I adore the story in this game and I'm glad you're able to look past the flaws at the greater themes and how well they permeate into the world as you described it. I totally agree that this game is far from flawless, the pacing is all over the place and those tensionless sequences in the early game make the replayability of the game drop significantly after the 2nd play through. I always appreciate your thoughts and this was a great review.
I didn’t understand the purpose of Abby’s section of the story at first either, but then I took the time to think and look back on it after finishing the game.
As you said, the game’s focus isn’t completely about revenge, but forgiveness as well. Now, when we start playing as Abby for the first time, we’re on a revenge quest with her. She actually brings her revenge to fruition, which is the whole reason that Ellie’s journey begins in the first place. Abby’s story is about the aftermath of revenge and the damages it causes. Her relationships became complicated, the nightmares didn’t stop. She’s stuck in the same spot she was before. Killing Joel didn’t fix anything. Her life just became a bit worse
But when we encounter Lev and Yara, things begin to change. Abby’s way of healing wasn’t revenge, but through an act of kindness. After spending years as a remorseless scar killer, she finds solace in helping others. Its why she goes back for them, because she couldn’t forgive herself if she did. Abby’s learning to forgive herself and heal as a person, juxtaposed to Ellie who is doing the complete opposite.
I get that its still hard to come around by, considering Abby is a character we have no prior connection to, like Joel and Ellie. But I don’t think it was a waste of time. Abby’s story might not change the narrative, but helps flesh out Abby’s character and what the message is driving towards
agreed, Abby is getting over it in the theatre, and looks at least somewhat happy after she left Seattle. Ellie is fucking miserable all the time bc she can't move on
“Joel saves Ellie because he does not want to lose another daughter” yeah and that character flaw is why people have him as a beloved character
Lemme clarify that I’m not upset that Joel even dies in the game but about how this story as a whole was delivered
Or why people hate his guts. He could at least have had the decency to be honest about it.
Mitchell W oh yeah dooming humanity what a great person
Trojan I mean humanity would have been doomed either way
@@barackobama6858 Beloved Character doesn't mean great person, it means a character people loved.
@@barackobama6858 Let's be real here, the Fireflies wasn't going to make a vaccine anyways.
“Lesbian hobo murder rampage” would make a great band name
I can already hear the shit music from that "band"
Reminds me of that obscure ARG band "KFC Murder Chicks"
Hahaha
It’s just three bald women holding mirrors facing the audience screaming “slaves”
@@callummccomiskie9171 Lol could you imagine?
I and many others were confused by the ending because, after all the hundreds of people that ellie had killed without hesitation, she decided not to kill abby. This is an inconsistent choice and is completely detached from what we saw in gameplay, as well as making all of those people's deaths for nothing.
If she did lev would have just come after her
If all you wanted was to kill abby in the end.. im afraid you lost the true message of the story my friend
"Ellie has to learn to forgive Abby"
Yeah, after killing everyone Abby knows. But y'know forgiveness takes time, only Abby can be forgiven. Not everyone else that Ellie killed along the way, they don't matter. Abby is the only one that deserves forgiveness.
Yes. They do in fact in Ellie's head over the course of the game do not matter because they were not her end goal. And I think it's safe to say that after everything, Ellie is regretful about the shit she does over the course of the game.
It feels like you're being sarcastic to make a point but I can't see why.
@@ClareAmel The games message rings hollow if it doesn't even bring in the gameplay into account for story moments. How am I supposed to get the message of forgiveness if you can't even show mercy once by gameplay and have it matter. Instead you're forced to kill hundreds and I'm supposed to think that it's good writing when Abby is the only one that's forgiven and Ellie "regrets" her actions.
Ps. I'm not trying to be an ass or come off that way, this game just makes me heated. Sorry if I was rude in this response.
@@Lamachi-_- because Ellie only realises she fucked up at the very end of the game, after fighting Abby
@@tiagorodrigues5778 only for abby huh....no remorse for the others....just abby
All the context that's inconvenient to you:
Abby was currently trying to get away and help Lev, not attack Ellie. Ellie's self defense (against deranged cultists who shot her immediately for no reason, slavers and child murderers) =/= premeditated waterboarding.
She felt worse with every friend of Abby she killed, so that point actually proves you wrong in the eyes of anyone who knows what a character arc is.
"But y'know forgiveness takes time, only Abby can be forgiven."-Huh... no? The game emphasizes her forgiving Joel a lot more than Abby? So she's not the only one, making you a liar?
A beloved character does not have to be a good person, just a character that's beloved...by fans. Doesn't matter if Joel killed tens of hundreds of people, or that he's hated by other characters in the game. As long as he is loved by fans, he is a beloved character.
just like joker is a beloved character
Khizar khan well said
i don't think he meant people don't like him but that he _shouldn't_ be liked like that? also, the second part "you can't kill a beloved character" was part of the reason he brought that up. that if you kill a fan favorite, even if it was done well, people aren't gonna like it.
True
In real life; everyone would probably hate him.
This comment section is going to be interesting.
I'm here for it.
Not really. Those people are dumb.
Sean Birch a bit mean but ok
Honestly I loved the game overall. I hated the ending and some of the story beats. But also the other things people hate about this game I honestly don't hate about this game. I loved the characters (yes Abby too. She was actually my favorite), I loved the gameplay, and I loved the story.for the first two acts.
Hate comments come at me.
Very interesting indeed
Joel isn’t a good person but we still sided with him and hated Abby. Because in a world like TLOU, for almost everyone, it was no longer about what’s right or wrong-It’s about who you’re with. And we were with Joel. That’s why no matter how real and justified Abby’s revenge was, we still wanted her dead because Joel was “family”. In the end, Ellie proves that it ISN’T just about who you’re with, and that right CAN still exist in the world of TLOU. Abby also proves this when she’s given a second chance at a different path with Lev. The same chance Joel got when he met Ellie all those years ago.
idk if marcus reads the comments but please play the remastered version and upload the stream to the second channel, i'd love to see whether your opinion has changed at all
"Lesbian murder hobo rampage" is probably my favorite quote ever
XD
If that ain't what I do on Sundays
basically d&d with a bad group
@@yegor2 'bad' don't pretend that doesn't sound fun to roleplay in d n d
I think Marcus has a different idea of “beloved”
Maybe what he means is that Joel isn’t beloved in the game’s universe.
@@austinjohnsen4430 i feel like this is what a lot of people are missing lol
Naomi Shabazz He worded that very poorly though. He seems to be doing quite a bit of that lately.
Hes confused beloved with loving. Joel is beloved by the fans
SkaterBlades He thinks that the fans think Joel is a loving person like Winne The Pooh?
coming back to this a year later and "lesbian murder hobo rampage" is still one of the funniest jokes this channel's ever made
2 years later and I still think that Marcus still has no idea why people had a problem with this game
I wish he wouldn't be so condescending and actually listen to his critics. His takes on TLJ are so bad that I still sometimes think about them lol
"There was a sequel. It wasn't as good" - Joel.
britbloc123 last of us 2 electric boogaloo
ellie said that
@@eduardolobo2533 no
Eduardo lobo no she didn’t
@@eduardolobo2533 which scene?
"Not that bad" is not what anyone wanted to hear from a sequel to TLOU.
The first one wasn't even that good to begin with.
M Murphy but the gameplay was straight ass
@@cn2673 Joel in first game was also a killer, and the psycho part is only your opinion
Carson N S by your logic Ellie as much of a killer and psychopath
Kev In, ok? Correct the first game is better, what’s your point?
I'm not mad he's dead. It's just the way he died don't justify his character.
I don’t know of anyone who is mad because Joel dies, they are mad because of the way he dies. The convenience and coincidence are next level bs.
Wrong. They're not BS at all. It balanced realism with economical storytelling really well.
@@krasmasov6852 Wrong, it was out of character for Joel to trust some randos they just found and go down that easily
@@braydenbishop811 Ah so it would've been more in character to die to the horde or the blizzard?
@@krasmasov6852 Would’ve been more in character if they tricked Ellie or snuck up on them instead of Joel blindly trusting them. Nothing wrong with Joel getting brutally killed in an act of vengeance, but when it’s done in a way that doesn’t fit his characterization then it’s bad writing.
@@thegreatgonzales6813 What should Joel have done instead?
''joel isn’t a beloved character''
Did you unironically say this? Everyone loves the shit out of Joel.
The Lore of Orsa he didn’t even play the first one, everyone that did loves Joel
I absolutely loved Joel, but my god the man had it coming.
Yeah I agree with a lot of his video, but saying Joel isn’t a beloved character is CRAZY. Now is he “hero”, that can be debatable, the moral ambiguity is what makes the story that much more interesting imo
Yeah, he calls other people dumb, but he conflated "beloved character" with "hero".
Ichigo Kurusaki Yes he did . He states that in the first 2 minutes of the video and gives the gameplay 6/10 and the story 10/10 .
You can constructively criticize the video and express your issues with it , but please stop words in other people’s mouths .
Cosmonaut: They're just mad Joel died.
Also Cosmonaut: Joel isn't beloved. 👌
Like, HOW do you have these 2 statements in the same video lmao He's the king of contradictions and i expect no less
Everyone's just mad that Obi-Wan Kenobi died in A New Hope. Well guess what, Obi-Wan isn't beloved! /s
I’m pretty sure he meant “Joel isn’t a hero”
Ray Polaris I think he just used the wrong words, I think he meant Joel is not a likeable or charming character.
@@samuelolivier3792 He explained that Joel murders people just because he wants to like he's some kind of serial killer. It seems quite likely Cosmo used the words he wanted to use.
Bro what? Ellie encountered the Seraphites on Day 2 of her Seattle chapter. What are you even talking about
One thing I loved about the story was how the audience feels ellie's pain and understands her want for revenge but we go along, at least for me, the conflict becomes exhausting in the sense that I wondered and asked how far does this need to go? Until you lose everything, ellie? Will it be worth it? I had to force myself through the fight with abby because I genuinely wanted ellie to walk away. I think that was the point of the story, as well, and I absolutely love the story for that.
YES i felt the same way is killing probably hundreds of people and losing many friends along the way worth while just don't do it and i think ellie kind of saw joel in abby she let ellie and dina live if lev wasnt their i dont know what she would of done but either way i think the story was like vilonce wasnt the answer all the time and wont give you satisfaction everytime and forgivness is sometimes the answer and when abby killed joel you can see on her face she immediatley regretted it her dad wouldn't of wanted her to do that and she didnt feel satisfied
and lev is like what ellie was to joel but abbys ellie in a way doing anything to get them out of this shitty situation no matter the costs and feeling as if she owed it to lev
I don’t think that people are mad that Joel dies, i think people are mad about how he died
Also I think people dislike the ending because the person who stops their revenge is left with nothing and the person who does get revenge hasn’t really lost anything, or at least not as much as Ellie
true
Because he got killed by a golf club? I dont get it
Yea because they wanted him to die in a blaze of generic glory.
Na, I’m sure there are plenty of people mad that he died. Specially mad at who it was that killed him.
He also went into why it makes sense how he dies. Joel doomed all of humanity and killed a shit ton of good people. So it makes sense for him to die just how he killed others. Unceremoniously.
most people aren’t mad that joel died. they are mad at how and when.
It fuels the whole point in the story. Where else could it have happened vans had more impact?
So hear me out. I’ve been thinking a lot by the “Joel letting his guard down” thing. We clearly see Abby getting revenge did something to her: she went completely overboard to save the Seraphites she used to hate and even more overboard to get the medicine the girl needed. So imagine how doing what he did must have taken a tool on Joel, evey life he sees taken by the infected is on his hands, for years and years. I’m not saying its justified being more trusting in other people but it definitively it would change the way he handles them.
That's the point. They wanted you to be mad at Abby so you can relate to how Ellie feels.
I think every single one of those people is inventing a vague reason to mask just being mad that Joel died. Do we *really* think any version of a person traumatically hurt by his actions finding him and killing him would satisfy these people?
OriginOfSleeperguy it would of had a lot of impact if we didn’t have to stop on a ellie cliffhanger and play abbys backstory that no one gives two shits about. I love ellie’s part but come on you can’t defend abbys shit gameplay
No review i've seen mentions that you can get in to safes by hearing the *click*
First of all, you cannot compare movies and videogames, the other is interactive whilst the other is not. Choice is always appraised if done well and there is none in TLOU2.
Bro’s arguing while watching the video 💀
@@dustmakron god
@@dustmakr What else are comments for then you nincanpoop.
And after losing her fingers, Ellie loses the ONE THING Joel left her with. Guitar.
It's funny because earlier in the game, one of the characters jokes to another that they only need 3 fingers
But remember the moth on the guitar ellie is the moth and abby is the light (fireflys) moths cant resist the light
Wrong. He left her with a life worth living, worth fighting for. She forgives him and she forgives herself before laying him and her grief to rest, and then goes to Jackson to see if Dina could try to forgive her.
Her leaving the guitar is her letting Joel go... which is the whole point. It’s what Joel should have done with her (and Sarah)... let them go.
@@jaustengirl441 Ohhhhhh I really like that.
"Joel is not a beloved character"
"People are just mad that Joel died"
Funny part is, some fans of this game actually thinks the only reason we dislike the game is either we didn't like how Joel died or because we're a transphobic lmao
@@jasonalv7436 *tries to think of an argument*
...mhhhh... You... You just hate women.
@@zira9827 damn I guess I do hate women
I think its the fact the game clearly wants you to care about new characters who I didnt really care for. I wasn't even that mad about Joel, just disappointed at most.
@@jasonalv7436 "thinks the only reason we dislike the game is either we didn't like how Joel died or because we're a transphobic lmao"
Also: Thousands of 0s were spammed on Metacritic before almost anyone had even gotten to the title screen, and the reasons you've provided are the reasons why those people posted 0s without playing it. lmao
People are not saying that everyone who dislikes TLOU2 dislikes it for those reasons, but objectively, there are a lot of people who do. There are huge political TH-camrs like TheQuartering who made around 100 videos getting offended over TLOU2 without even playing it (a common theme), or the original. *His audience sent so many death threats to the staff that he had to acknowledge it - you don't have to downplay valid criticism of others just because you also don't like a video-game*
In one of his videos where he portrayed Druckmann as being terrible ... TheQuartering admitted at the end that Druckmann had actually just tried to console him about the loss of his dog. haha. The whole thing was a very profitable grift. He said that Joel dies after 5 hours and his audience didn't call him out on it because they didn't play it either.
I think what makes Joel distinct from being just any old anti-hero or evil protagonist is that we, as the player, walked with him throughout his entire ordeal with the outbreak and have developed a level of understanding for his motives. His whole character arc revolves around a father and his grief over the death of his only child. Of course that’s going to weigh heavily on his mind and view the world in a more pessimistic light. imho, Many criminals today pursue the life of crime because they feel the big bad world has left them with a chip on their shoulder. Yes, they steal for money and they murder because they have a score to settle with a rival gang, but they feel the world screwed them over just as Joel feels “the world” (through the cop’s actions) heartlessly murdered his daughter in cold blood.
He IS the villain to society that interfered with the doctors’ attempts to find a cure for everyone, but his motivations aren’t evil. He’s still the hero in his story, because he’s trying to save the life of his daughter-figure at the expense of benefiting the dark, cruel world that took his daughter’s life.
This is honestly just a bad review with a painfully smug tone. If you can’t understand how other players feel towards a game, that doesn’t mean their feelings are wrongs. Plus Ellie forgiving Abby doesn’t work thematically because the game decides to force you to kill dozens of people to get to her and that negates the impact of what the writers are going for.
To be fair, Cosmo has a bad habit of just plagiarizing entire paragraphs from subreddits.
The fucker's gonna get his comeuppance one day, exposed as a Filip Miucin-esque plagiarist, and it'll be glorious. And nobody'd have cottoned on if he didn't have such a shit take for this.
you need to shut up and let cosmonaut speak facts
Cope@@crazyinsane500
I completely agree. Even the title is bad.
Someone didnt pay attention to the video. I recommend playing the game or maybe play the game a second time.
Saying Joel isn’t a ‘beloved’ character based on the fact that he’s done ‘bad things’ in a post-apocalyptic world is as DUMB as saying Rick Grimes isn’t a ‘beloved’ character in The Walking Dead.
He is not beloved, it's like Walter White in breaking bad. He is not a beloved character. He is an inciting, intriguing and interesting character. That does NOT mean he is a beloved character. A lot of people did not like Joel, as they didn't like Walter White. That didn't make the show / games any less good.
Rick Grimes admits himself that he's just a killer
@@josiahfour25 true but I still feel joel is a beloved character as they set him up to immediately being a character to sympathise with the death of his daughter
Josiah David Well you’re definitely not speaking for the majority with that opinion. There’s a reason why everyone is so overwhelmingly pissed off with what was done with Joel and it’s not because he’s ‘interesting’.
Ya it's a stupid take
Frieza is arguably the most despicable being in the universe, and he is a "beloved" character.
that's cause he got style, when your that fine good and evil don't matter
@@bashirsheikh7322 Not only that, he's interesting to watch. We've grown to like him despite his morality. Same goes for characters like Walter White. He's not a good person, but I love him as a character.
yeh but as the audience, you wernt forced to see goku get tortured by a golf club and get killed off early just to give gohan a narrative for hate and revenge. You also werent forced for 10 hours straight to watch frieza leading up to that point.
Well, I don't love him just like I don't love Cersei or Darth Vader. I love to hate them, is defferent. I love Joel, but I am not blind to the point I don't see that he makes bad choices.
@@matthewbouton5121 I'm drawing a parallel between Frieza and Joel though, not Abby. I like Joel, as a character, despite of what he did. Which doesn't mean I think he's a good person.
Just because I’m dumb doesn’t mean I’m stupid .
Genuinely one of the dumbest takes of this controversy that has ever occurred.
But thanks for putting your thoughts out there as I needed to show my friend who just completed the game, as she genuinely believed that no one could defend this game because they would have to be, in her words, "...surgically braindead to do so."
I think I'm braindead too since I enjoyed the game. But hey, what's a little less brain activity if it means I get to actually enjoy games 🤔
“Joel took the choice away from her”.... The fireflies took it too because she was still unconscious.
Exactly!
I always thought the message of TLOU initially was that humanity didn’t deserve the cure. That the way humanity responded to the pandemic with the birth of groups like the fireflies showed that even if they had a cure, it wasn’t guaranteed that things would improve (it was even implied initially that the cure might not actually be developed successfully even with Ellie’s sacrifice.
People conveniently forget this fact when shitting on Joel. Joel is 150% correct. If I was in his position? I'd have done the same thing. People also forget that Joel goes into the room to get Ellie and the Dr pulls his scalpel on him saying he won't let him take her.
But in the story when Joel actually tells Ellie the truth Ellie gets mad at Joel for pulling her out of that operating room
@@ya_boi_gabe9984 They retconned her to be furious with Joel and retconned the procedure into being a 100% chance of success so that they could make him an objectively evil villain who deserves to die slowly, when the act was depicted as morally gray in the first game.
Either way a cure or a vaccine for a fungal infection is impossible . Ellie just got lucky that the cordyceps mutated making her immune so yeah Joel did the right thin anyway
"Joel is not a beloved character."
"Carl Johnson is not a beloved character."
"Arthur Morgan is not a beloved character."
This whole video was pretentious as fuck. What is up with people thinking it's deep and nuanced to sum up Joel's whole character arc with "he was a shitty person". This shows neither depth nor critical thinking on their part. TLOU ended with the moral ambiguity of Joel's decision to save Ellie's life, it's not as simple as people are making it out to be.
yesididitverywell People are still hating on this game for surface stuff. His video may be extreme, but the point still stands. Joel is not some hero who deserves a heroic death. He is a human being who can die normally, and even brutally, like every person in this world. At the end of the day, there are people idolizing Joel and there are people thinking that Joel is a heinous villain. Both of them are wrong.
idek the other two
@@yesididitverywell right? Joel did bad things to survive but people cometely overlook the good he did.
@@aashrithmadagiri6711 Naughty Dog left the ending open for interpretation. Joel was just a blue collar guy struggling to make ends meet. He went through every parent's worst nightmare, which left him broken, but still a survivor. Society took extreme measures to try and neutralize infection spread, even if it meant killing innocent men, women and children (like Sarah). The Fireflies were no different because they also adopted a whatever-it-takes strategy to fight the pandemic. Kill a child? Sure. Marlene never informed Ellie that the operation would be fatal and Ellie was never given the chance to decide. Joel was confronted with the same situation as Sarah, but now with Ellie. Few fathers would willingly give up their child... even for the greater good. Sorry, Joel was right when saying, "Find another way." Even Tommy empathized and agreed that he would've done the same, like most of us. I sure wouldn't want to lose a child - even under those extreme circumstances. This game was all about survival - taking care of you and your own. Find another way. In philosophy, there's the classic question of whether it's moral to take one innocent life for the greater good of society. If you support the non-consent murder of Ellie, then, similarly, you also support eugenics, experimentation on prisoners, capital punishment, genocide and any number of atrocities that benefit the 'greater good'. It's a slippery slope. I know you probably don't believe those things, but you understand the dilemma and ripple effect. The Fireflies found other immune people, experimented on them, killed them and still had no cure. Sure, society would love to kill Ellie and harvest her brain. But it doesn't make it morally right. Marlene promised Ellie's mother that she'd look after her daughter. She dropped the ball. Someone else picked it up and moved with hell and fury. Joel wasn't a hero and he wasn't a villain either. Joel didn't deserve to die a hero wearing cool shades with a rising fireball behind him. And he didn't deserve this. He deserved better.
*Halley Gross:* The thing that Neil and the studio really cared about is _honoring Ellie and Joel_ specifically, and their journey as characters.
That's not exactly what happened, now is it? Naughty dog has a different definition of 'honor', especially when a character, who looks like Druckmann, spits on the corpse of this beloved franchise.
LoU2 was revealed during PlayStation Experience 2016. If people knew that Joel would be _unplayable_ and killed _early, without a fight_ like a _dog_ by a _random_ revenge character related to a _run-of-the-mill_ NPC, then people would be absolutely livid. Many fans aren't excited to pal around with Dina, let alone play as Abby to hunt and assault Ellie because she's now the 'bad guy'. Naughty Dog subverted expectations like an earthquake and fractured the fanbase. Druckmann openly (and nervously) admitted that this story was going to be very divisive. Suicide mission accomplished.
This game cemented my belief that way too many people have the media literacy of a child. You have to forcefeed them a story and even then they still don't understand it.
Exactly. Half of the hatebase says shit like "revenge bad' is such an obvious thing and the pretentious writers think they were profound for making it the theme of the story" and the other half of the hatebase thinks "actually, revenge good and the game sucks because I didn't get to kill Abby at the end >:("
this game is too obviously trying to make you like Abby and then refuses to explore her as a character. It's all surface level and you invent deeper meanings and act like people are dumb for not getting it
I guess a character can only be likeable if they give money to the poor and shoot rainbows out of their ass.
im sorry that some of us dont like selfish murders and yea to be a likable character u have to have likeable characteristics😂
@@SPDRM literally who said anything about a romance simulator??
"Joel isn't a beloved character, he is a violent anti-hero"
The most famous violent anti-hero (Deadpool) is one of the most beloved characters of all times, I fail to see the conection between those points.
Except Deadpool’s universe is supposed to be funny and super hero-ish while the last of us’ world is grounded in reality. Your scope of judgement should be changed based on the IP you’re examining.
@@aashrithmadagiri6711 Joel isn't even an anti-hero, he's a hero depending on your own morality. MANY people would do the exact same thing that he did.
@@aashrithmadagiri6711 I don't see how someone with a skewed morality is automatically deemed not able to a beloved character. Walter White is a straight up villain at the end of the show and he's one of the most beloved TV characters ever.
I think he used the wrong words, he is saying that Joel isn’t a good guy
@@thesynergy2 Yeah, if your morality is really screwed he may be hero, same thing with the punisher.
"I'm one of the few people who like when stealth is done well in video games"
There are people who don't like good stealth? Like they prefer poor stealth mechanics?
There are many people that don’t like stealth at all
Yes. People have different opinions.
@@gotham_knight1091 I'm one of the few people who actually like it when a game is fun and entertaining to play
@@UncleBenton 🤣when you say it like that I see how it sounds dumb. But tbh there are people that do not like stealth whatsoever, and prefer it when it’s simple and quick
@@uhuhuh1966 there's a difference between not liking Stealth, and not liking *Good* Stealth mechanics
I never even bother finding the safe combinations, I play with headphones and just Crack them by ear, which I think is more satisfying
you can do that??? that's actually so sick
Deadpool, punisher & wolverine are beloved characters but are they pure good?
_"I struggled for a long time with survivin', and no matter what, you keep finding something to fight for."_
*~ Joel (RIP 2013 - 2020)*
RIP Joel,I wish it didnt have to end this way.
Jack Taylor 044 Nah, he is still alive, don’t know why people are talking about a second game, that never existed.
Kaohs they stupid, the last of us been ended. who’s abby?
I love Abby's character. Come at me.
My man was only 7 years old, you hate to see it.
"This is not a revenge story".......Neil Druckman would disagree with you.
it is, but it also shows that even revenge can be fucking destroying y and literally make you go crazy. Poor Ellie. I hope the 3rd game make her justice.
Saying it is a revenge story implies Ellie needs to kill Abby at the end which is why people say it's not. It's a story about revenge but not really a revenge story.
@@xZero9Ox I guess that's why it feels so fucked up, they try to use a theme subversion from Cycles of Revenge to some kind of Forgiveness? But yeah, they do it in the last 10 minutes after 25 hours of mass murder. I like to compare this game to RDR2 because both protagonists die and you're forced to play another character.
So in RDR2 you start the game thinking it's about the gang being a family and the importance of being togheter as one in the world we (they) live. But the gang gradually starts falling apart with people dying or leaving as the game turns into Arthur's Redemption story after he's seen all the bad he's done throughout his life. No, he doesn't stop doing 'bad' things, but he tries so fucking hard that all you want for him is to finally go to his "beach house". But there's no normal life for a man like him and he sacrifices himself so John could live the life he never had.
RDR2 shows really how you do theme subversion. TLOU 2 does that in the ending simply because they seemed to have forgotten that it takes time to convince the players the story is not about what they rooted for in the beginning. But they make you play 25 hours of revenge for Ellie to see Joel playing the guitar and give up on killing after mass murderer
Neil himself said it isn't a revenge story
It’s a story about forgiveness.
2023 rewatch but i noticed something around 10:50 marcus said something about games taking away the players choice in the game to “contextualize the character” and i thought about Marvel Spider-Man 2018 when aunt may was on her deathbed and we as the player base thought we had a choice to save aunt may or save new york WE DIDNT EVEN GET A PROMPT TO DO THAT cos that’s not who peter parker is thats not spider-man more than half the player base wanted to save aunt may but we had no choice in the matter so as a result aunt may dies cos peter made the choice to save new york cos that’s who he is
The whole time Ellie goes though the game not caring about what she doing but when come down to the moment she can kill abby she doesn’t that where the game draw the line for me. Ellie had no reason to spare abby considering all that she when through
I think you’re missing the point, she just didn’t need to. Abby spared Ellie two times because she understood her. Ellie and Abby are the same, victims to a cycle of violence started by Joel. Ellie saw the moment that her and Joel had forgiveness and realised that there was no reason to kill Abby, all that would do is continue the cycle when she could end it. Ellie had the moment to choose not to do it and she took it to move on guilt free.
@@pandaboi7832 only problem is this falls apart when you think about all the NPCs Ellie and Abby killed.
Anyone of those NPCs could have a loved one or daughter who now wants revenge on Abby or Ellie, so the cycle isn’t really broken at all.
Hell Abby is the daughter of an NPC from the first game.
I also think your argument about Joel's "beloved" character status was intentioned well but worded weirdly. I'd agree that killing off a central character is not a betrayal to your audience, but saying that the central character in question isn't beloved because he/she does evil shit is not a good argument IMO. What made this moment powerful was BECAUSE Joel was so beloved - so you might've conflated 'beloved' with 'heroic', which is definitely understandable.
Pretty sure people are confliced with his decisions, and it's not some unanimous "oh gosh joel is such a cuddly beloved bear". Loved character sure, but beloved is a bit too strong here.
@@muuubiee No he's beloved. The fan outrage is enough evidence of that. Joel has killed many people, but he only ever killed out of one necessity or another, and he never took pleasure in it. We understand why Joel had to do what he did. Beloved doesn't mean someone is innocent or cuddly. It means someone who is dearly loved or much loved, which Joel very much was.
@@Shin_FTW Lots of people don't agree with what joel did. If basically everyone agreed with what he did, and had no hard feelings to him, he'd be beloved.
Shinku no Yami [Not for kids] Joel didn’t always kill out of necessity. He was selfish and held no remorse for the people he killed. They were just targets to be taken out. And granted, a lot of who he killed deserved it. But to say he didn’t enjoy killing is a lie and to say it was always necessary is also a lie. He is an amazing character but a terrible terrible person. Abby had every reason and every right to kill him.
@@loukes7758 Terrible person is also an overstatement. Part of the reason of why he's so beloved is that you can understand his motivation. His traumas (with the death of his daughter) and insecurities, and also the 20 years he has spent killing and trying to survive with his brother during the outbreak. Honestly, to say he ENJOYED killing has yet to be shown in the games. Tortured, yes, but out of enjoyment? Absolutely not. He's definitely battle hardended, but his motives are why lots of people think he's not terrible at all.
Any of us could become Joel, as in trying to survive by any means necessary in an apocalypse while trying to defend the people you love. But does that actually turn you into a terrible person? You become a survivor, honestly
Though Abby also isn't terrible, but people will obviously like Darth Vader more than Phasma or Rey, even though he's a literal nightmare. Though to show Abby brutally and cowardly killing a BELOVED character, independently of what he has done, is something Neil Druckmann was counting on to create outrage, which if fine but you know
I mean, I do agree that their are some people who didn’t really “get” what this game was about, but saying that Joel is not a beloved character because he’s not nice is kinda dumb. Not gonna lie.
After watching I think he did take it like; "Joel was considered a good character". I think you can like a bad character and acknowledge their flaws. But that should come with the consequences of that character's actions.
Even if he's a beloved character why does it even matter if he dies
@@Firehazerd5444 i mean mcu thanos is like that
mrjimjah I’m not mad that he died, I actually expected it to happen, I just feel the way he died and when he died was kinda stupid
@@voids98 Seems like you are. Cosmo openly doesn't care if people agree with him or not. He just gives his opinion.
I think you're wrong on the Joel argument, Joel is in our standards, a horrible person, a murdering, torturing, violent person but Naughty Dog made us love him besides his flaws.