Ilan Pape vs Eli Hassell | ”The Two State Solution is DEAD!”
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.พ. 2025
- Eli Hassell talks to historian and author Professor Ilan Pape.
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excellent interview thankyou
Ilan Pape is a very wise human being who brilliantly assess the situation in Palestine.
@@Marxist2 you're an idiot
Apartheid and occupation doesn’t work in 2024 equal rights for all people. We are all equal!
Do you believe in the Geneva Convention?
you are illusional western brainwashed privilege by using this distorted terms
and try to simplify this conflict by dimonize the Jewish people and distorte reallty as it fits your twisted narrative
Its not occupation.....the land was theirs before Islam existed
@Joe-rk9uy please do a rudimentary Google search.
@@Saumie no please you do see Google search you'll find im right suga tits.......they didn't call it the kingdom of judea for nothing ya know 😅😅
Israel, the most moral democracy in the world that's terrified of the concept of one person, one vote from the river to the sea.
That's one of the fundamental problems isn't it? Palestinians can't be given a viable state but nor can they be incorporated into Israel as citizens in a binational state. Israel would have them doomed to a state-less oppressed condition until one day (israel hopes) they dwindle out of existence.
@@asdf-oq4zrPalestinians simply cannot be trusted. Ask yourself why their Arab brothers, all of them, want nothing to do with them and will not allow them to live among them
42:24 Well said!
Do you think maybe it has something to do with the fact that Muslim/Arabs around the world are immigrating and ruining countries in far fewer numbers than 50% of the population? Now, add to that the history of the conflict. This is not a practical solution. Palestinians need to return to their only state ever, which is Jordan - as many already have.
Also really have the heebie jeebies about DNA testing, for such a so called (finger quotes) advanced 'civilised' society hooked on death and destruction.
After all how can you create if you don't first destroy; chaos theory madness! js
This man is amazing in his intellect and truth telling
Does he say Israel shouldn't have retaliated?
But this would mean that it's allowed to attack Israel.
@@devalapar7878
It's apartheid state
@@devalapar7878
nazis "retaliate"
I can’t believe 8 months in and we’re still asking questions about proportionality in the Israeli response. Shameful.
Don't start a conflict and then cry about proportionality
@@talksmoke1190Spoken like a poet. Don’t colonize people and complain about resistance.
@@alexb9597 spoken like someone who thinks they're clever. Calling people that caused their own misery oppressed
@@talksmoke1190 Don't occupy people then cry when you get khamas'd
@@talksmoke1190 Spoken like a true Natzi, blaming their victims for their own misery.
Great interview, Eli! Keep bringing on these sorts of scholars! I hope you being on Palestinian scholars/activists as well! I’ll definitely be tuning in.
Eli Thank you for having him on. It really shows your honesty and integrity in such a divisive time.
Beyond showing Eli's integrity, it shows a true historian's perspective of a significant number of issues that the state of Israel purposefully, carefully and, to a degree successfully, attempted to conceal from the rest of the world since its very inception.
Even hamas leaders say every day, "end occupation."
This claim has nothing at all of any antisemitic form or shape.
I believe that people around the globe agree that occupation must end.
Simple.
And you listen to everything hamas say?
They also say "atbah al yahud", should we listen to that too?
Hamas would’ve existed exactly as it is regardless of the nature/religion/identity of their colonizers. Had they been Vikings, Chinese, South Americans or whatever you want, resistance would have emerged the same way. To claim they’re antisemitic is plain bs
@@usamadgheim4517
No you're wrong.
A. Its not resistance, resistance is towards military force not civilians. These are crimes against humanity.
B. If they are only there because of colonizers, they would have at least recognized Israel as a state which they haven't, just like Hezbollah exists and are not under Israeli rule. The main aim of their mouvement is to destroy Israel..
@@usamadgheim4517 ehh they are openly antisemitic. wow. they really did a good job on you
@@2000av you do realize ,that Benzion Mileikowsky supported hamas financially for many years... looks like it backfired on them or they are nothing more than a scapegoat?
This guy proposes the most rational and practical solution!
LOOOOL
For who? Definitely not for the jews
@@sh25098actually not the Jews, the most rational for Israelis.
His John Lennon “Imagine” solution isn’t a solution at all.
@@sh25098 For all human beings. Jews are human too.
Best logical, hopeful future for everyone involved, affected I ever heard. Thank Ilan Pappe and Eli for having this discussion
How come no one ever asked how Hamas should have responded with all the killing of the Palestinians before Oct. 7 by the apartheid Israeli state? If one only focuses on Oct 7, one is assuming everything was fine had Oct 7 didn't take place. How narcissistic.
Great point.
how do you think they should have responded? this conflict is not one sided both parties committed terror against each other before oct 7th so there’s no point on debating who gets the right to “respond”
Thank you great Ilan Pape
When a wise man speaks, the world should (finally) listen!
The more I listen to you Professor Pappé I discover your deep beliefs.. you are a man with humane conscience and courage to say the truth based on facts.
A very good format for illuminating discussions. Keep it up Eli.
I wish this was 6 hours long. Such lucidity and integrity. Bravo, Eli!
Ilan pape is legend
I agree a lot with what the professor has to say.
Wonderfully informative conversation with Ilan Pappe. He sees a "collapse" of Israel. I'm not clear if he is speaking of a moral collapse or a political collapse or of both taking place at the same time. He says it is accelerating at this time within Israel. 1/2 million Israeli citizens have left Israel in the past six or seven months. Will there be even more leaving and will only the hard-liners and the ultra-orthodox be left to deal with even greater crises, which seems to be an inevitability?
The man is a fruit loop who gets paid off by Iran. He has made the same claims for decades and is dismissed as a whacko- same as Finklestein.
you do realize Aliya TO Israel is the highest it's been in decades, right? I had no reason to want to live in Israel - until now - there are many people like me too.
@@LBJgreat You still can’t make up the numbers. You’re the architects of your own demise. I’m afraid.
@@dipthongthathongthongthong9691 I'm afraid this isn't our first rodeo of "Israel will soon be destroyed, blah, blah, blah" Keep it up, the more you say it, the more of us move there. It's that simple. Facts are facts, my friend, last time I checked I'm the only one that provided numbers :)
@@LBJgreat You vastly overestimate American support, because it's starting to become very costly to our politicians to maintain a policy of propping up a genocidal state. People are not happy and they're making it known. We do not want our tax dollars spent on slaughtering civilians, or benefiting an apartheid state in any way. American support might collapse sooner rather than later, considering how brutal Israel has been.
Thank you for having Ilan Pappe . Peace and equality for all!!
Eli is going to cry thoughout this interview
all honor to you sir for conducting this interview with such a towering intellect humanitarian that all people of goodwill must hear and be greatfull for having heard. thank you!
The choice for Israel is stark: evolve towards equality for all or resign yourself to being a small hateful ethnostate, isolated from the currents of world civilisation. The second option is not a winning formula.
How about the 22 surrounding Arab ethnostates surrounding it? Let the Jews have their small piece of land.
Israel do want equality for all, they've been asking gazans for it 75 years. The terrorists however are not interested in that, preferring to keep the violence going.
The fate of the medieval Crusader states is a cautionary historical precedent for Israel. Outposts of the West, founded for religious reasons in the Near East. They lasted 193 years. If Israel is as successful, it has about 60% of its lifespan still to run.
Excellent text....Palestine will be free from the river to the sea
Excellent text
Ilan Pappé is a beacon of hope and truth.
This interview was run very well despite the fact that the guest was clearly challenging the view points of the interviewer
Credit to you …
The "guest" here is a well renowned author and historian with deep knowledge, while the "host" has no credentials other than having a small platform 😂
Invite Mouin Rabini and Norman Finkelstein.
He has had Norman Finkelstein on. Unsure about Mouin Rabbani.
Ilan Pappe is brilliant. I think he makes so much sense. And we should focus on doing what’s right. Always aiming for what’s right and just. When we let what we think or imagine is realistic determine our goals and vision, or goals can become increasingly devoid from what just, and mere thought power will win. There is power in what’s just, and we should give that power.
Eli please invite Prof. Avi Shlaim
And Gideon Levy (sorry I’ve missed it if interview has already occurred)
All the uneducated people...
I'd love to watch a debate between illan and Morris done by a competent mediator such as you! If possible please try
I highly doubt they will agree to do it. I'm waiting on such a debate for at least a decade.
benny Moriss is historian
Pape is Science fiction writer
@@adiadizzzPappe is a historian and Benny Morris is a historian. Just because you don’t like one doesn’t discredit the contribution they’ve each added.
@adi-gp7dr they both came out of the same academic movement, you fool. Morris himself described Pappe as an New Historian compatriot.
@@alexb9597Pape is a propaganda writer and is paid by Iran.
Eli seems to be going through a nightmare hearing Pape hahahha
It’s a existential crisis to admit what must happen for many
@@brentshowers741nonsense. Pape is talking silly propaganda stuff that is a pipe dream, nothing more. This is why he is dismissed as a whacko the same way Finklestein is dismissed as a whacko
@@AFanofIsrael Mandela- “it always seems impossible until it’s done”. You contradict yourself calling it a pipe dream and propaganda at the same time. It can either be one or the other and yet you choose to call it both in your objections. What I see is desperation and a need for it be to so by Zionists and their supporters. We make the impossible possible that is the lesson of the past and our future. There is no such thing as a wacko when talking about visionary things. What is wacko is what’s going on now calling it sustainable in anyway without it leading to mass death or ethnic cleansing
@@Ali.Al-Mahdi Noam is Cut from the same cloth - he will speak slowly and basically say nothing but Israel is really bad and the Palestinians are the cats meow. Never a criticism in the last 60 years from Noam. He is a joke
As am I.
Nice work getting the legendary historian on your show.
The fall of the Soviet empire affected South Africa significantly because the Soviets were supporting the ANC. Once the communist threat was over, there was less to fear from ANC.
Truth and reconciliation processes take a great deal of time but if we want peace such processes will be foundational for sustainable futures.
THANKS INTERVIEW FROM ILAN PEPPE
Free America from Aipac 🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨
Great to see from the comments that people are coming around - either that or Eli has a new enlightened following. The truth always comes out and wins. Free Palestine!
Decades and decades of violence between beautiful human beings (and the earth)...for what? Pappe is a treasure and has vision. Never trust anyone who suggests that violence will lead to peace-it is impossible. If there is a future with peace, it will only be achieved through peace.
Irish people tend to feel a sense of affinity with the Palestinians. Our historical experiences are not identical but they do have striking parallels.British soldiers had been stationed with the Black and Tans in Galway before moving to Palestine. memoirs make clear that they brought a great deal of bigotry with them, : “Most of us were so infected by the sense of our own superiority over these ‘lesser breeds’ that we scarcely regarded these people as human.” 🇮🇪🇵🇸
Ilan is wonderful, thanks
Eli I really appreciate your respectable way of interviewing. Thank you for this interview.
Prof.Illan Pappe is the best guest you got till now. The amount of information he knows and describes is beyond amazing.
Free Palestine ❤❤
As a South African, I do not agree with the references to how South Africa resolved their problem. It was a very different situation.
Israel is an apartheid state like SA was.
Thank you Eli, I have seen you grown as a man and a human ❤
Thank you for this interview Eli! It was extremely well done on your part & Ilan Pappe is incredibly interesting and an intellectual that we do not hear from enough I believe.
What an excellent interview! The asked questions representing many of the concerns of Israelis, the considered answers emphasising what really matters: shared living on commonly owned ground with equal rights for all ethnicities as well as religious groups. For this the subjugation by colonialism must have been buried for good. An exemplary model for a rational discourse, away from the cacophony of false claims and illusionary, ill-advised future visions for a troubled land.
Excellent choice of guest! Prof Pappe comes across as a reasoned and intelligent voice
How should Palestinians responded to thousands of their own in administrative detention held without charge?
Stop attacking Israel and there will be no more detentions.
Not be an Arab terrorist entity.
Majority are charged the rest are awaiting trial. All are criminals.
@@Roatanlova68fmp71lliiiak A majority is not all, and a majority could be as low as 50.1%. That means there are thousands that aren’t charged with anything at all. They’re just there. The government openly admits this. The fact you call people criminals without evidence to support the label tells me all I need to know. And it’s not like the ones actually charged with a crime are afforded due process either, they’re not. Do you care to explain how Dr. Adnan Al-Bursh and Dr. Iyad Rantisi end up not surviving their detention? Why are there literally dozens like them?
@@Roatanlova68fmp71lliiiak A
majority is not all, and a majority could be as low as 50.1%. That means there are thousands that aren't charged with anything at all.
They're just there. The government openly admits this. The fact you call people criminals without evidence to support the label tells me all I need to know. And it's not like the ones actually charged with a crime are afforded due process either, they're not.
Dear Mr Ilan Pappe... what a wonderful world would it be if every world's leaders would have the same clear and honest way to think and analyse
the world's geopolitics...
If the believe in equality and oneness of humanity will not be realized in our world there will be no peace for any group., even the ones that trust in their own power. Today you have power and tomorrow is gone.
Erelong these outward trappings, these visible treasures, these earthly vanities, these arrayed armies, these adorned vestures, these proud and overweening souls, all shall pass into the confines of the grave, as though into that box. In the eyes of those possessed of insight, all this conflict, contention and vainglory hath ever been, and will ever be, like unto the play and pastimes of children. Take heed, and be not of them that see and yet deny.
- from Bahá'u'lláh's second tablet to Ottoman ruler Ali Pasha
You will see how the world is upset with internal conflict, and many lands are dyed in human blood, - nay the earth is kneaded with gore. The flame of war is so ablaze that such terrible struggle finds no parallel in the war records of any of the middle or recent ages. Heads have become like grains and the war like mill stones, - nay even worse. Flourishing lands are ruined, cities completely wrecked and thriving towns annihilated. Fathers have lost their sons, sons are made fatherless, and mothers have shed tears of blood over the death of their youthful sons.
Children are made orphan, women are helpless, and the world of humanity is forced backward in all respects. The wailing cry of fatherless children is raised abroad, and mothers’ pathetic lamentation reaches the high heaven. *The source of all these catastrophes is racial fanaticism, patriotic fanaticism, religious fanaticism and political fanaticism. The source of these fanaticisms is ancient imitations, religious imitations, racial imitations, patriotic imitations, and political imitations.* As long as following such imitations persists, the very foundation of humanity is wrecked and the world of man is in great jeopardy.
- Abdu’l-Bahá, from a letter to Martha Root written in 1920
O Lord, verily, I invoke Thee in this Supreme Threshold, under the wing of the gloomy nights; pray to Thee with throbbing heart and flowing tears, imploring Thee, supplicating between Thy hands, and cry: O my Lord, verily the fire of battles is raging in the valleys, hills and streams, and the conflagration of war is burning even under the seas and high in the air, destroying and devastating. The earth is enveloped by its own fires and the sea is encompassed by its storms, thunderbolts and floods. O Lord, the souls are stifling, the death rattle is in their throats, the earth quakes, and has become so small that even the birds are frightened in their nests and the animals terrified in their lairs and caves. O my Lord, remove the veil, scatter this dense cloud on the horizon, extinguish these fires, subdue this flood, in order to stanch the bloodshed as compassion to the widows and mercy to the orphans, that these hurricanes may cease, the thunderbolts be extinguished, the torrents quelled, the land become visible, the souls find composure and the breasts be dilated. And we will thank Thee for Thy abundant favor, O Thou dear! O Thou forgiver!
- ‘Abdu’l-Bahá
This started 1948 with ethnic cleansing brutal occupation mowing the lawn and aparthied in westbank
Absolutely worth it. Free all the women
Nah- it started way before that. For example, Hebron 1929, Jerusalem, 1922, and of course- the Grand Mufti and his best friend Adolf Hitler. Truth be told, Israel has been very nice when you look at all the variables.
Why is it you never hear the professional victims known as Palestinians speak about the 850K Jews that were kicked out of Arab countries?
@@markymarkymarkymarky British-Israeli historian Avi Shlaim has claimed in his new book to have uncovered "undeniable proof" of Israeli involvement in attacks on Jewish communities in Iraq in the early 1950s.
Shlaim's autobiography, Three Worlds: Memoirs of an Arab-Jew, which details his childhood as an Iraqi Jew and subsequent exile to Israel, was published last week.
@@Loveandpeace2357 Let me guess- you like to google stuff that agree with your opinion (mind you that there is no proof, just what some guy wrote down) and you will ignore all other undeniable facts. Did I get it right?
But let’s go with what is being claimed- explain why Egypt, Syria, Morocco, Libya, Iran, Yemen, etc don’t have their Jewish citizens? Why is it that the descendants of these people are far more anti Arab sentiment than Ashkenazi Jews? I’m sure you can google your opinion and find what you are looking for.
@@Mr.BlackSanta because Mossad bombed them they needed Jewish people do Israel could survive. By the way why did Israel attack USS liberty?
Thank you Prof. Pappe. for your great wisdom; a truly "prophetic voice" calling for Justice for all inhabitants of the lands "between the river and the sea" - a secular civic democracy., neither religiously nor ethnically based.
The idea that Israel should've done nothing after Oct 7th, and accepted all the terms that Hamas demanded is insane.
They should have accepted that they were defeated in that event and gone on to negotiate the release of all the hostages. The hostages should have been the most important consideration. However Isr only had the final aim before their eyes. The individual Isr people are not important and can be sacrificed for the bigger aim.
@@sakha2349 What stops Hamas from doing Oct 7th again and again? which is what they've said they want to do. No country in history would do what you're suggesting.
Yes Jews, Christians, Muslims lived together pre 1948, but certainly not equal.
There will be a Democratic State of Palestine.
Do you also believe in unicorn?
@@talmudovsky Nope!
No State survives a genocide-Illan Pappe.
😅😅😅😅
Palestine = Narnia.
your brain = deep fried.
Prov the best take on the issue ive heard ..peace ✌️🕊️
A two state solution is what Robert E Lee was fighting for. Government mandated ethnostates aren't recipes for justice. Do the ethnically English, ethnically Irish, or ethnically Scottish all have a right to an ethnostate? No. And because those three nations I cited are actually democratic republics that strive for greater equality, in 2024 all of these nations had government executives who were not of the historical ethnicity linked to the geographic space. Ilan Pappé's understanding of the realities of the delusion of the two state solution is spot on. To bring it back to Robert E. Lee. Black Americans suffered brutality for centuries due to state sanctioned terror but they were not given their own nation state to right this wrong. The US Constitution's 14th Amendment grants racial equality. Israel, on the other hand, doesn't even have a constitution because they don't want to have to put their apartheid system on blast.
That’s the most dissociated from reality solution I've ever heard for the conflict! Most people on both sides hate each other. That's a reality. Some hate the other side to death, some have political-justice reasons, some have religious reasons. some have historical reasons. To ignore all the realities and call for a Utopia is just failed activism as it is never going to work, and such country would be a state of continuous civil war.
And his take that palestinians or the arab world want this to happen is so dishonest. People calling for "dismantling of the state of israel" are calling for extermination not integration into one country.
You act as if two nations haven't been able to coexist with eachother after conflict its literally happened all over the world
Sniffing glue again Andrew ? Do research instead. Or just check your morals and ethics if books are too much
@NadeemAhmed-qc3ko where did it happen? Where did 2 totally different societies merge and share a tiny peace of land?
@@sh25098The united states, not a tiny piece of land but I can’t think of anything you can do to another human being worse than to enslave them.
Good on you for a proper interview: you ask the questions, he gives the answers.
Interesting interview. Thank you.
Eli, in 2017 changed their charter to categorically state that they were not a threat to Jews and wanted to reach a peace based on 1967 borders.
yes and how oct 7th proves that? or thousands of terror attacks throughout the years? their leaders saying themselves genocidal slogans towards the jews
Brilliant!
What is indigenous? That land has been a crossroads for millennia. There have been so many empires - the real indigenous are loong gone or totally assimilated into numerous different ethnicities. In South Africa, there are indigenous people who literally evolved here, and yet still are not a recognised race, are classifies as coloured like mixed race people, and are being systematically discriminated against by the ANC lead South African government. With 12 official languages in South Africa, not one from the real indigenous Khoi or San. You simply cannot compare Israel / Palestine to South Africa.
It’s disingenuous to think Isreal could have only done prisoner swap and no response after Oct 7. That’s not realistic at all.
Why do you think this?
I hear the question “how do you think Israel should have responded to October 7th?” Often and it’s funny to me because NOBODY on either side seems to be able to give a proper answer to this.
IMO once the attack had started, Israel had a right to defend its land and its borders (I happen to believe Israel purposely let its guard down knowing something was gonna happen, but I also like to argue in facts and that’s not something I can say for sure so we’ll ignore it for now). As I said, once the attacks started Israel had every right in its power to eliminate the threat however it seemed fit. Once that threat had been properly disposed of, Israel needed to reinforce the Gaza borders properly (as it had always done before that) and started negotiating the release of the hostages. Once that was complete, Israel, the most powerful military in the Middle East and one of the most technologically advanced militaries in the world should have deployed out special forces units into Qatar and Gaza to eliminate Hamas Leadership while minimizing civilian casualties. Once this operation was complete, you make peace with the new government that comes out of Gaza and the West Bank, and you give them their state while slowly building peaceful relations with the Palestinians. This will not be an easy process and there will be many challenges along the way.
IMO Israel does not want peace and they never have. They are always looking for a pretext to war and when it comes they take full advantage of it. They don’t care about the hostages, they don’t care about Palestinians, they just want to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians of the land and have their greater Israel.
I also agree the solution is a one state which is palestine and people like this decent man can live together with the palestinians and enjoying all his rights safely.
Encouraging conversation !
40:12 Good show with essential questions and answers often skitlrted elsewhere. Thank you both.
"How would you expect that pariah state to respond to Oct 7" is a question we always ask and rightly is a legit one to ask.
By far the best answer from all Intellectual Giants comes Prof Illan Pappe.
And Elli's line of questioning and pushback exemplifies World Class journalism, excellent cross examination and sharp critical thinking !!!
What a joke...
Many conflicts during the history of mankind stopped and they didn't stop by not responding to pogroms.
They stopped when one of the sides acknowledged the other is stronger.
A real wise man who provided soultions
Sick and tired of this OCTOBER 7TH start point.....last time I checked ADAM AND EVE also created on that day .......F@*&k
What's the point in bringing a pro terror propagandist to an interview? I can just read his views in Twitter headlines
Ilan pape is rarely interviewed in zionists platforms..so it is a shame that eli never pushed back more strongly on pape's ideas.
@sh25098.What examples of push backs would you have asked Ilan Pape
Why is he focused only on the Arabs who have been displaced and not the Jews? Arabs have 22 countries where they are the majority. Why is there an issue with one Jewish state? A 2 state solution will be the only possible path towards a peaceful resolution here. One state solution will just make Jews second and third class citizens of the world again (at best), or genocided (at worst).@@giftchiposipho8967
Ummmm... because Pape is a distinguished academic with decades of research behind him. Nothing to push back on
@@shareebauld5956 distinguished is not quite the word to describe Pappe...
What do you expect? Eli just said he’s for a two state solution!!
The mental gymnastics that are done by Pappe in this interview (and always) are astonishing. He acts as if the Palestinians are just innocent victims who are pragmatic and willing to live peacefully with or alongside Jews. He deflects blame from them every time and exercises extreme delusion.
Secular, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim Palestinians lived together relatively peacefully for 100's of years.
@@JBrix86 This is false, there was only peace when Jews were in full submission to the Islamists and often treated at second class citizens. The Muslims also didn’t care much when they were occupied by other Muslims, they only cared about Jews occupying them. Muslims and The Quran are anti-Semitic so it’s not a shocker…
A 1 state solution is a ridiculous idea. Its impossible to force an American model on the middle east.
People in the middle east are Conservative, very religious, tribal and sectarian. also the arab nations are not democratic and liberal by their traditions and values.
The idea of merging Palestinians and Israelis to 1 society is ridiculous and artificial.
Muslims and jews in the middle east would NEVER intermarry , they have a totally different way of life, ideologies, culture, language ext.
That’s such a short-sighted view. Muslims and jews have co-existed peacefully for centuries in many arab countries and that’s more than proved
The two state solutions not going to work either when Isreal has already annexed most of Palestine and still expanding. There is simply not enough land for Palestinians to have a viable economy.
@@usamadgheim4517 AMEN..
@usamadgheim4517 that's not strictly true. Jews always, even during peaceful times, were second class citizens with fewer rights than Muslims. Whether it was peaceful was arbitrary and depended on each ruler, so there always were cycles of violence that broke out and Jews were never able to defend themselves as they had no rights.
@@eddieazimi5865not correct. Jordan is part of Palestine as well, don't forget and Israel has given back not just Sinai and Golan Heights, which they conquered in wars, they gave back Gaza and they aren't occupying all of West Bank, so they still have a minute amount of land out of all of Palestine.
Absolutely admire Ilan Pappe. However, I do believe the two state solution is possible, and should be considered by him more. Even if it's a compromised solution, will give time to heal old wounds.
On the other hand, it could enhance the polarizing effect we already see on the extreme right in both camps.
Had Ilan born a few hundred years ago, he would be treated as a prophet.
Hello, it is people like you Eli that can make a difference.
Ilan rocked Eli’s world. Absolutely love ❤️ it! Thanks 🙏🏾 Eli for this great content!
Eli bro you’re doing great with the guests you’re bringing on.
It is a wrong narrative to say that Jews are not a nation and only a religion. I believe that is the crux of his mistake. He said religious or cultural Jews. Which is it? Ilan is not religious. Would he reject the claim that he is a Jew?
I understand his mistake now. Thx Eli.
I think he is an israeli. Istaelis is a nation, jews are not, since there is very little in common between American non religions Jews and non-religious Jews from other lands be it Russian, Ethiopian, Arab, etc. What would unite them is Judaism (religion) since there is no common culture, language, etc. What still unites them is that their ancestors were Jews, but it is a past history.
Well put. I was thinking the exact same thing.
wrong....read Invention of the Jewish people by Shlomo Sand.
@Danny310563 I prefer to read the books of the Jews instead of a person who is commenting on them. The Jews throughout history considered themselves a separate nation. Sand is a scholar of history, Im a scholar of the Jews.
@@lyubitelliubitel2365That is the point. According to you and Ilan, if one doesn't hold by the ideology of Judaism then those people are not Jews. Yet we find that even those Jews who are not practice being a Jew [Judaism] are still identified and identify as being Jews. This means it is not the ideology that is the identiy of the people but the common history and background. That is the nation. Jews have a common land, Jews have a common culture, Jews have a common language. If you are not aware of those things, it seems that the lacking is with you and not the Jews peoplehood.
I would respectfully suggest that the Northern Ireland (fragile) peace process (Good Friday Agreement) could provide a template for a One State Solution.
In that situation there was an actual wish for peace, Hamas literally want supremacy over both countries and have Palestinian civilians in a literal death grip.
I don't see a way out without full intervention by a neutral power. It's likely that Isreal can be talked down from settlements if said neutral power can take over ensuring Hamas' removal.
@@Shelaborator So Hamas are the evil stumbling black to peace? This despite the fact in 2017 Hamas changed it's charter to make clear they were not a threat to Judaism and that they were prepared to negotiate a peace settlement based on 1967 borders. Face facts it is the evil Nazis Government led by Adolf Netanyahu that is the real problem here. In the past few months they have slaughtered over 40 000 Palestinians. They have hold up to 10 000 Palestinian hostages. They have raped and sexually abused Palestinian children they have kidnapped. They are systematically stealing the West Bank. I could go on listing the evil Zionist atrocities but by now you should get the point.
I really appreciate Dr Pape but he is dreaming noway the Jewish people will agree to live in peace in Israel especially now time have changed so many Israëli I know don't even have empathy for the killed maimed orphaned children of gaza the opposite they agree to the genocide no matter what
It is unbelievable unbelievable
They will come to acknowledge that accepting each other with respect and on an equal footing beats fighting and killing
Congrats Eli. You let your guest speak and asked meaningful questions.
This is interesting, don't know how I missed this. Well done. You should bring more variety voices on this topic. Bring Rashid Khalidi, noura erakat, daina buttu, avi shlaim
"At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest." - Benny Morris.
So many holes in Ilan Pappé arguments.
1. At 23:00, talks about how two-state solution is impractical, but then promotes one-state solution, which he acknowledges may be impractical but supports on ideological grounds.
2. Repeatedly states that only solution is one that “undoes historical wrongs.” By that logic I suppose he would support all whites in the US packing their bags and giving it back to Native Americans. Or actually I suppose he’d support a re-drawing of the entire world map. (Not to mention that the analogy doesn’t even work, since Jews are indigenous to Israel, unlike whites who are not indigenous to the US).
3. Compares Jewish state to Christian or Muslim state. Well, if a third of the Muslim or Christian populations were wiped out in the past century, you’re damn right I would support them having their own state. Not to mention that Judaism is certainly more than just a religion (although it admittedly may not be a nationality).
4. PLO charter states that Palestine is “the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people.” This doesn’t exactly bode well with his fantasy about PLO wanting a single, democratic state. Also, PLO is basically irrelevant at this point. Hamas is exponentially more popular, and anyone with a > room temperature IQ knows that they don’t support equality. Yet he takes no stance on Hamas’s place in a future state. What a hypocrite.
I could go on and on… Seems pretty obvious to me that Ilan Pappé is at best a third-rate historian, as Prof. Benny Morris has called him.
😂😂😂😂 so you do admit you forcibly ethnically cleansed the Palestinians
I feel you can believe what you want to believe
That's what happened in the war. Just like the Arabs ethnically cleansed all of the middle East during their conquests. Time to give up the fighting and live in peace. @@NadeemAhmed-qc3ko
Good discussion. Thanks.
Islamist apologism on display here. The democratic world is being assaulted by a number of bad actors who want to see it fail. Those bad actors have ideologiclaly nothing in common except their desire to bring down the post-WW2 international order. How can I take Pappé seriously when he doesn't mention this strategic aim by those bad actors? Why did he not mention the funding of Hamas by Iran?
Does he really believe that equality is important for Hamas and for Palestinians? They don't care about equality - they want Jews and Israel removed from that land.
Why is it that Palestinians want all of the land between the river and the sea? Why should we be ok with their demand? Post-WW2 Europe saw many countries lose territory to which they had historical claims. Should we give legitimacy to those who want to their territories returned? Conflict would erupt once again in Europe. The solution for people to have better lives is not how much territory they have, but the kind of governance that they have. Democracy, equality under the law, liberalism, free markets.
As for the claim about "coexistence" between the different groups under ottoman rule, that is ridiculous. Those groups didn't enjoy equal treatment by the ottomans. It was a tenuous order, at best.
He talks about the trauma of October 7th and his followers say it didn't happen or that Israel did it! Something doesn't add up with this brilliant historian.
Fool. It's Palestinians land. It's that fuc*ING simple
Why don't you mention the proping up of Hamas by Netanyahu and his coalition which preceeded the funding of Hamas by Iran?
@@AymenBoukthir-cn8fwThe Arab world is full of conspiracy theories such as the one you mentioned. You think Netanyahu wanted Oct 7 to happen? Islamism and jihadism is a major problem in the Arab world. Sort out your shit.
great coverage thank you
You should have him debate Professor Benny Morris so Benny can show how Pape bends the facts to fits his anti-Israel narrative.
Always a deep satisfaction to listen to Prof. Pappe! May his Vision of the future Palestine become reality.
good people
Yes, Gaza is densely populated, but not "one of the most densely populated areas in the world" It does not even make the list. There are at least 5 Israeli cities that are more densely populated. Why do these guys feel the need to say this?
With around 2 million Palestinians on approximately 365 square km of land, Gaza does indeed have one of the world's highest population densities
@@voland6846 Gaza - about 13000 people per square mile. - Less than half of no 88 (bottom of the list).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density
@@voland6846 No, they say that for emotional manipulation. If they were honest, they would just stop at "densely" or even "very densely populated". Typical of these pro Palestine historians like Finkelstilskin who bend and massage facts to tell history like a story, with a predetermined bias and narrative.
@@voland6846 Less dense than Soweto in South Africa, and most buildings there are single storey. Alexandra Township in South Africa - 67000 per square mile - 5x more dense than GAZA.
Where Gaza does rank around top in the world is foreign aid received per capita.
Ilan papa is kindred soul of Judaism and conscience of Israel#
Eli, don't invite pop artists if you're unable to expose them
Pappe exposed himself
Quite the opposite. But you lack minimum humanity and intelligence to comprehend anything.
Eli is pretty ignorant on the subject, there wouldn't be much use
And pappé does a great job exposing how delusional he is without eli interfering 😂
You forgot to mention Israeli killed its own people Hannibal directive!
it didn’t happen you’re just trying to humanize hamas as if they didn’t do anything on oct 7th and just blame everything on israel
@ keep lying to yourself‼️
th-cam.com/video/8y4g2gfDfQ4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=zchWlY4Ri1QoobUe
@@linoyohana1186 by the the Evil Occupiers Genocidal Ethnic Cleansers are the most evil ever since the dawn of time & I will never again commemorate the holocaust as they commit one before our eyes ‼️
@@linoyohana1186 by the way resistance is more human in their little finger than the whole body of an IDF soldier‼️
It's enough,5 minutes made me 🤢
“Historian”
No, Historian
@@aya3769 Only until you check his sources. Then you realise he's not.
@@themossad his sources, shared by other new historians, were the state’s archives
@@aya3769 Yes, there's a mismatch between his 'quotations' and the sources.
@@themossad Examples?
Ilan Pappe is a brilliant historian and beautiful soul. He gives me a lot of hope
He's a liar with no proof other than hearsay from frauds.
@@Roatanlova68fmp71lliiiak - he has actually studied documentary evidence. Anyone who destroys Isr propa@ ganda would be a liar in your eyes.
This guy dosnt make too much sense.
You don’t listen dear
He is living in a fantasy land if he thinks a one state solution won't end in terrible violence for all
Ilan Papa The only thing that can be agreed with you is that Eli was present in the conversation.