you can also divide 360 by the number of teeth and it will give you the degree of change each tooth will give. eg it looks like 1 tooth on the small sprocket is 15 degrees and the big sprocket is 7.5 degrees. So 1 tooth on the bottom sprocket should put you around 5 degrees advanced with no new parts
for those curious as to why the new lower gear he used only has plus 8 or minus 8 degrees of adjustment, is because you can go forward or backwards one entire outside chain tooth on the chain and then achieve 10 degrees adjusted timing with a different slot on the lower gear, It will not be the "timing" it says on the gear but t will be the timing he was trying to achieve, you never need the offset keyway for the camshaft... still the beat video Ive ever seen on this subject
Wow dude 😳 how did you find that out. When I was taught to dial in a car it took me awhile to understand the wheel, math hrs of scratching my head , congrats blew my mind. Thanks for that . Great job
I watched Uncle Tony do it with a feeler gauge and thought his method, while simple, was even more complex than it needed to be. All you need to find the center of overlap are the factory timing marks and a straight edge, and for most street/strip applications that's enough. Sure, if you're building top-fuel dragsters you probably want to invest in a degree wheel, but if you are building one then you don't need me telling you how to set up a cam either. LOL
You are a very smart person and you did this with out all them expensive,Tools this show that if you Have some skills and a little knowledge you can get the job done thank you for your time and patience to share your knowledge
FYI . When the gears are matched dot to dot, you are actually compression stroke on #6 cylinder. Also using a degree wheel & dial indicator takes most of the guess work on camshaft centerline. Just saying
Thank you SO much dude. I am rebuilding an FE and everything is working except it it feels as if the cam timing is so bad I can barely get it to run. Im a mopar guy and its usually just easy, dot to dot, and Im starting to think that since I have a new timing set, it didn't install correctly because of issues like this. Going to actually pull it apart and do this kind of method to see if it is cam timing. Been driving myself nuts and this video was just what I needed to help confirm even when you do this a while, you still can drive yourself NUTS.
When hot rod engines are checked for piston to valve clearances the exhaust valve is usually closest to the piston at10 degrees BTC and the intake to piston clearance is closest at 10 degrees ATDC. This means overlap of the two valves should be very close to TDC. Retarding the cam timing would drop the cranking compression by as much as 40 pounds or more. Also kill low end torque. But also lower NO2 numbers? The gas mileage would be bad. Did you see an improvement in miles per gallon from when it was new? Does the engine still pass exhaust testing?
I've seen this done before by Uncle Tony. My issue is, when dealing with flat tappet lifters (which aren't flat) and flat tappet cams, which are all machined with lobes that are slanted or angled slightly, plus lifter to lifter bore tolerances, running a straight edge across lifters can give inaccurate readings.
Why would you only check one cylinder? Couldn't each set of lobes be off just a little? Then find the average and make adjustments from there, assuming there's some inconsistency in the cam, otherwise why degree a cam to begin with. I've never degreed a cam, just lined up the marks and called it good.
You could check them all, sure. This is assuming the cam lobes were ground properly and verifies they are aligned with the crank position. If the lobe separation changes per cylinder, there was a serious problem with the grinding machine beyond the cam blank or the axis being off by a couple degrees
I understand that buying that adjustable timing set is the "correct" way to adjust this thing being off by 10 or so degrees but correct me if I'm wrong, couldn't skipping a tooth or 2 on the original timing set do essentially the same thing? In addition with that offset key I would think that you could massage the timing right in to spec.
@@YoshimoshiGarage Awesome, I just put together the rotating assembly and cam for my 5.9 mag and was gonna check the cam degree. its a regrind cam so I'm hoping its a little closer to TDC than yours was. Thanks again! this series has been a big help
I am currently working on a 360 magnum as well, doing the chain, plenum, gaskets etc (heads are not removed) - I am noting the positions of the marks before I remove the sprockets when those 2 dots face each other that is not tdc of cylinder 1 on compession stroke - that would be the exhaust stroke as the rotor is pointing to cylinder 4 at this point. These sprockets (orig dodge parts) the cam sprocket has a line 180 degrees across and it looks like the number 1 cylinder is at tdc compression when they line up
Just curious if you measured the lifter bodies as a pair to make sure they are exactly the same when you lay your straight edge across them….with the reputation of poor lifter quality control these days? Great video
Yes, but what if your lifter edges aren't machined to same height? I seen you think 1st timing set maybe made on a Friday? Like your procedure but is it as accurate as a wheel? Loved the video and not harassing your ways, thanks.
Of the lifters aren't the same height it won't work, no, though I've never seen them vary. This method is not as accurate as a wheel, no. But it's accurate enough for most home garage and street guys and doesn't require a wheel or dial indicator. It's a cheap alternative.
The hyd lifter plunger makes the difference up don't it? What about the body of lifter u are laying straight edge on, have u ever checked machine height, I think this way is great, just asking if there is any big changes in degrees u ever found that would throw reading off real far. Thanks 4 sharing this way of degreeing.
Bro finding TDC entails a dial indicator to measure the amount of degrees the piston stays still while the crank is moving. Measure when the indicator stops. Mark your wheel and rotate the same direction until the indicator starts to move again and mark the degree wheel again. Half way in between those marks it true TDC. Pistons stop at the top of stroke half way between that stop is true TDC.
I think you'd be surprised just how close you can get things using this method. Notice he's swinging back and forth and watching his piston at TDC and splitting the difference by eye. Remember, you wont know a degree or two either way without a dyno anyway to see exactly which direction would be a little bit more to your liking for street or track use, so anywhere in this ballpark will do. Even if you found true exact TDC you wont know if that's IDEAL placement anyway. All it does within a few degrees is just moves the power up or down the powerband ever so slightly. Is'nt like 2 degrees only moves the power by like 200 rpm or something? You're not even going to notice 2 degrees off one way or the other really, for street cruising, let's be honest so that small fraction you're on about, you're probably talking moving the power by 50 rpm or so anyway. This might matter at the drag strip in major high end tuning where everyone and their brother are looking for any fraction of a sliver or that quarter in blueprinted engines but a guy's engine on the street wont notice anything.
Did you ever get this engine installed and running? Would love to hear how it's doing. I've watched all your videos multiple times. About to put my last two pistons in and press forward on my build.
So everything turned out alright then? I have a similar crank gear set that I'm going to use for my 4.6 Ford instead of adjustable cam gears, so I was curious to how they worked.
that is an old ed iskenderian trick to measure the overlap period with a straight edge on the lifters at tdc. as far as the cam timing is concerned, that is a smogger cam. by retarding the cam so much it hangs the exhaust valve open much longer after tdc, pulling exhaust back into the intake charge. the dilution of the intake charge with exhaust helps burn it, but it kills power.
I'm not sure of your rational on the cam timing and lifter orientation @ piston TDC or your geometry of converting degrees to lineal measurement. as a circle gets smaller in circumference, the lineal measurement between each degree gets closer just like the longitudinal lines of the earth leading to each pole or the spokes of a bicycle leading to the hub. Normally, the cam intake center line is measured @ .050" intake valve lift or some number designated by the cam manufacture. I don't think they would all end up with the lifters at equal heights with piston @ TDC on every cam spec. I might be wrong but something sounds off.
We're simply measuring that both intake and exhaust are open the same amount at TDC. This is called "split overlap." The timing cover already tells us angle so we don't have to use anything else to see where they actually pass. www.iskycams.com/cam-degreeing.html#:~:text=RELATING%20VALVE%20OVERLAP%20TO%20THE,cam's%20base%20circle%20at%20T.D.C.
Advancing the cam typically will improve low RPM torque/Power. I advanced my Buick's cam 3 degrees from stock and both idle vacuum and static compression improved. I wish I'd checked lifter height at TDC but I'll do that next time for sure. Result was the top end felt like it lost some oomph but not appreciably, I wanted to improve bottom end anyway. Then you have to remember, crank angle is 2x cam angle, to avoid confusion. How'd your 5.9 run afterward?
So now I'm not sure whether I'm confused or enlightened. I thought dot-to-dot on the timing set put us at TDC on the compression stroke for cyl 1, not the exhaust stroke. Or is this a Mopar thing? I'm in Chevy world. Yes, I'm pretty much a beginner.
You can. Just divide 360 by the number of teeth on the gear you're skipping a tooth with. I think the cam gear gives you 7.5 degrees per tooth, but you'd want to count to be sure.
@@YoshimoshiGarage just do dot to dot I was able to get the keeper very nice got stuck doing advance timing like that engine very much it's a complete rebuilt 1999 thank you
Would love to know how the Engine Performance turned out! I know from back in the day a chev timiing marks were at about o'clock position and later engines are more like 1230 o'clock was probably some emissions ideal,like your content!!
So basically, the valve timing was retarded 10/11° at the crank, 5/6° at the cam. Don't forget on a Mopar when you line up the dots at 12 and 6, you are actually firing the number 6 on your distributor rotor orientation. Lining up the dots at 12 and 12 your distributor rotor will point to the #1 on the cap.....or switch them to wherever you want. That's the real test of sanity....lol.
How do you know the outside of the harmonic balancer didn't slip or rotate from where it was supposed to be? Did you install the timing cover and verify that actual TDC lines up with the 0° mark on the cover for TDC? I've seen many older harmonic balancers slip on the old, fatigued rubber.
Yes, the balancer mark was within probably 1/2 a degree of the timing cover zero. Even the factory specs on the cam indicate it needs significant adjustment (I didn't even look them up until I saw just how far off this thing was)
Yoshimoshi do you know if the summit timing set works with the magnum timing cover ? That timing set doesn't show to be compatible with the magnum and I was wondering if it was because of the cover ! Which cover are you using ?
I just went out in the garage and measured a magnum and an LA timing cover and they both seem to have the same depth for the timing set. The crank and cam I'm using are both Magnum so I can't see any reason that timing set wouldn't work with a Magnum and a newer cover/serpentine setup.
You made the comment that you rotate the engine to TDC on the exhaust stroke. That’s not entirely correct. The engine doesn’t know what the exhaust stroke is. The exhaust stroke is defined by the cam so as long as the piston is at TDC, you line up the dots and it’s timed.
Not trying to be nit picky. Just didn’t want your viewers to be confused trying to figure out which stroke the piston is on when it doesn’t matter. I just found your channel and subscribed.
Here’s what I didn’t understand, if you didn’t move the crack you had to move the cam, correct? If so, how do you achieve 6* on the crank. In my mind if you didn’t move the crank or cam just put on the variable timing gear on the crank and offset key on the cam you only moved 4*. What am I missing?
The keyways in variable timing set are broached at locations that offset the teeth of the crank gear slightly from the cam gear. It changes where the teeth are relative to one another in the same way that the offset key does on the camshaft.
Hi can anyone help? I have a 1999 plymouth prowler 3.5l v6 and had my sohc camshafts ground 4 degrees advanced and install intake center line of 108 and I can't find any videos on how to degree that engine any help would be greatly appreciated thanks
16:23 what do you mean by advancing it 6 degrees, did you rotate the crank or just rotated new sprocket or did you rotate cam shaft, everything went too quick
That timing set has different notches for the crank key that allow you to install it at up to 6 degrees advanced (the notch itself is cut at a position to offset it in relation to the cam gear). So I'm using the built-in notch for 6 degrees there, then I used the offset key in the cam to gain another 4 degrees of advance
Just asking does that offset keyway have enough material to hold and not break or bend? I know it's not a racing engine with alot of hp, just asking for your opinion.
Do I need to readjust something in the MCU when I advance the timing like you did ? Or is this just plug and play, just set the ignition timing and your done ? Is there a difference in the 360 magnum in my Jeep ZJ to the RAM engines?
I suspect they're the same engine. I don't know what this would so to the ECU - probably confuse it. This is going into a 1974 W100 with a carburetor so I didn't have to worry about an ECU in my application.
I would love to see a hp/tq difference on a dyno between those 2 settings. I just did a timing set on a 5.9 magnum and the guy thought it was a 4.7 because it was such a turd. This would be why it doesn't make any down low power and has no grunt. Wish I would have seen this 2 days ago I would have just advanced it atleast a tooth.
It will work on anything that has a symmetric overlap. It's measuring the point where one is closing and the other is opening, so different lift and duration is fine. It starts having error if the *rate* of lift/close (so the slope on the cam) is different. How much error would depend on just how different they are.
@@YoshimoshiGarage thanks for your reply. I’m struggling to figure out an issue I’m having with extremely low idle vacuum and I keep coming back to cam timing as the possible cause. But I didn’t build my engine and I have no idea what the cam specs are. Your video has been the best advise I can find.
Low vacuum at idle means that, for some reason, when the piston is moving down, air is getting pulled in from somewhere other than the intake. I assume you've done the usual looking for leaks. If there are none, then it has to be at the valve. Obvious worst case would be a burnt valve, but I also assume you've got good compression. So that leaves "the exhaust valve must be still open for part of the travel of the piston" so your theory on possible timing problems is solid. Does the distributor have vacuum advance? Is it hooked to manifold or ported vacuum (should be manifold)? Higher lift cams often have longer duration, and long duration cams tend to have a longer overlap. That overlap is when both valve are open. If you advance the cam, that overlap happens sooner, meaning more of the overlap will be in the exhaust stroke, and less in the intake, which usually increases vacuum (and *importantly* decreases valve/piston clearance!)
@@YoshimoshiGarage havnt had the vehicle very long but the amount of incorrect under the bonnet makes me worry. Piston to valve clearance is my biggest concern also. I havnt done a compression test yet but no obvious signs of ring wear, no blue smoke and the plugs read good. It pulls hard between 3000rpm and 6000. I’ve checked for vacuum leaks every which way. Disconnected ALL lines and sprayed flammable material all over the intake and carb while running with no change in idle speed. So as far as I can tell no external vacuum leaks. Other than maybe an internal/ valley side intake leak but can’t really check that. My next step is compression check, then remove intake and check gasket for leaks. It’ll that’s all good it would have to be valve related. Here’s fingers crossed it’s not a burnt valve lol. I think if it was it would need to be multiple because my vacuum is 6-8in at 1000rpm with 20deg ignition timing. At 3000rpm 20-21in. My distributor is a progression ignition unit, good bit of kit I have to say.
@@YoshimoshiGarage just in case anyone was chasing similar issues I’ve got an update. My engine has a solid roller cam so I was able to back off lash from 16/18thou to 22/24thou. Picked up considerable idle vacuum. Now sits at 10in at 800rpm. I also increase idle timing to 22deg and it seems to like it. I’d say my cam is just rather rad haha
I have a 1997 5.2 im doing the top end on. I’m going to check if mine is same way. But I’m using stock fuel injection. If I did that, would it mess it up?
Great question, and all I can do is guess here. All fuel injection uses sensors fed into a computer to determine how much fuel to deliver and when. Newer FI systems are quite complex and likely "know" about the cam profile and timing to be able to best achieve ideal fuel/air mixture. Software changes (i.e. "tuning") can make changes to the desired output of the computer (how rich to make the mixture under specific conditions. Now older FI systems were dumber - the computer just wasn't as good, sensors were less accurate and slower, and the injectors themselves had limitations. I suspect that early FI computers didn't know about the cam curve or timing, they just did a real-time look at a few sensors (O2, TPS, MAP, and MAF) did a calculation of how much fuel is needed for the amount of air coming in, and squirted it. The one question there is that the "when" of the squirt is figured out by two things: a crank trigger (or distributor hall effect sensor) telling it when it's at TDC and, almost certainly, some sort of number in the software that says "squirt X milliseconds after the crank trigger fires." So the FI system would certainly be able to know "how much" fuel regardless of cam-to-crank timing, but I'm not sure it would know the "when to squirt." I also don't know if the difference would be big enough to make much difference. You would think that the factory engineers would have made it ideal to begin with, but they don't - well they try to make it ideal for low emissions, not ideal for maximum power. So if you made this change and kept the FI its near certain that emissions would get worse, but it's very possible that performance would get better, It's also possible that it would get worse. My git says it's like an 80/20 split in probability, so it's more likely to be better, but really it's something that I'd love to ask a camshaft engineer to explain to us. I don't know any, though. So, after all that rambling, if you got this far in my response then congrats, I've probably not helped you at all and maybe just made you more confused. What would *I* do? I'd put on the FI and see how it works, but be prepared to swap to a carb in the event the computer can't figure it out and perf goes to crap.
Love your channel and video presentation style. Another great video, but 4 comments. First, I've never heard a rule that all cams cause identical valve lift for both valves at TDC. All sorts of cam grinds out there, I'm sure some intentionally break that rule. Second, IMO it's ridiculous that you can't get a real cam card and lift graph for a modern-day cam. I have many graphs for various 1960s-era Corvair cams. Third, you did not investigate using the stock gears, offsetting the timing marks. Maybe 10 degrees or thereabouts could be had by offsetting the timing marks. Fourth, most other builders look at peak valve lift to determine proper cam position, to me that seems more important than matching lift at TDC.
There may well be some odd profiles that the rate is asymmetric but the range of overlap is small for most anything but the most radical of cams, assuming symmetric is likely within a half a degree or better. I was surprised the factory service manual didn't have better specs on the cam as well, but that's all they had. Skipping a tooth on a standard timing set probably would have worked to take a large amount of the difference out, but honestly I didn't think of it until after I ordered the set, and I thought showing an offset timing set might be more applicable to a wider range of applications where you don't need such a crazy amount of advance. Many guys swear by a degree wheel, and you can get more info with one, but this method is nice because it can quickly check to see if zero is where you think it actually is without any special tools.
Thanks for your quick reply, Yoshimoshi! Yes, after some searching I see that your split overlap check is legit. TYVM for teaching me this. Uncle Tony agrees at th-cam.com/video/AUJ_4csQuu8/w-d-xo.html Fantastic work of yours, I'm a fan. Will check this on the Corvair motor I'm building right now.
A great question. This method does reply on them all being the same length. I've found them to be accurate enough over the decades for this to work, and I just checked several spares that I had from another 360 magnum and they are all within 0.001"
A professional cam designer once taught me how much of a common mistake it is for people to miss the "0" mark on the TOOTH of the crankshaft gear, and that it's that mark on the TOOTH that needs to be used to line up with the camshaft gear. I don't know why timing gear manufactures stamp more "0" marks in their crankshaft gears than one, but they do, and it can be confusing to the person installing the camshaft. I believe this applies here to this video. Do you really believe that the car manufacture installed the cams for these engines 11 degrees off??? I don't think so. It appears that the guy in this video has it wrong and is using the wrong "0" mark on the crankshaft gear. Take a look at the 55 second mark and the 1:20 second mark of this video and if you look closely, you can see another "0" mark stamped near the tooth of the crankshaft gear. I think that was the correct mark to use, and not the one that has been used. At least that's how it is with SBC and BBC engines. You use the "0" mark on the TOOTH
Well, since I verified it with an actual cam manufacturer and their engineer came up with the same number I did just based on the cam card, yes, I do believe it is factory ground that way.
@@jeremyking5684 Jeremy, swapping the timing chain wouldn't make any difference if the "0" mark on the crankshaft gear located near the slot or anywhere else other than near the tooth was used. The "0" mark next to the crank gear TOOTH is what needs to be used.
You are assuming the camshaft has the same duration for both intake and exhaust as well as the same lobe centerline. Is this the case? This stuff wouldn't work on any other camshaft.
Not same duration, just symmetric slopes. If they're not identical, this won't be exact, but the reality is that you're only looking at the small slice of overlap, so even if they aren't symmetric you're still likely to be within a degree
This would work on every camshaft. The duration is irrelevant. You're just looking at the one point of split-overlap which should be at TDC on the exhaust stroke on virtually every 4 stroke engine. A cam is considered advanced or retarded if the point of split-overlap is moved one way or the other from TDC.
The worst thing to do is advance a cam with lots of duration without checking valve clearance. Lots of advance can cause lots of reversion especially with stock heads and an open plenum intake.
Thanks mucho for the info, yoshi! comments; those CL numbers define a cam that's retarded by 8 degrees by my figures. and eyeballing TDC where the piston moves so little at the top of the stroke can make for trouble. i find it more accurate to drop the piston a measured 1.5 inch and mark the damper then rotate it so it goes thru TDC and then down exactly the same 1.5 inch, mark that and then TDC will be half way between the two marks on the damper. you can do the same thing with the heads on by taking a plug out and using a pice of coat hanger wire to measure the piston drop.
,,,,Somehow there is gross mis-information printed on that 5.9 cam card you have in the video @ 11:61 run time......The card states the intake valve opens at 7 degrees BBDC...... Intake valves open somewhere BTDC,,,,and close somewhere ABDC......The overlap events take place before and after TDC........Also,,,,the card shows , valve overlap being 41 degrees........the events around TDC are noted as 7 degrees for Intake opening , and 33 degrees for EX closure......When added together 7 and 33 equal 40,,,not 41 as noted on the card......I enjoyed the mechanical common sense approach and explanation.......but double check that 5.9 cam card........
There are several things here. I do not agree with. We'll start with the simplest. When you measure the timing hashes on the cover against your caliper, those are not equal measurements. You're trying to measure an arc with a straight line measurement. Tose things don't jive. The arc is a longer distance. Then that straight line, you're measuring with your caliper. There are other inaccuracies here, but i'm not going into it any farther. The one I pointed out is good enough for starters
🤔 I am having a difficult time following your logic using your methods. For a more accurate assessment of timing you really need to use dial indicator and degree wheel for more precise measurements.
It's fairly simple. There's a point between the exhaust stroke and the intake stroke when both valves are slightly open. This happens on all 4-stroke engines, from lawn mowers to cars. Right before the exhaust fully closes and as the intake is opening. This method has them passing right at TDC, which is where it should happen for nearly any cam regardless of lift or duration. It's called split overlap.
This is a factory cam, so you can only guess at the recommendations, but it doesn't really matter. Generally speaking camshafts perform best when the overlap is equally split. In some cases (I'd say likely never for street use) you might want it to be a degree or two advanced. But retarded 10+ degrees like these appear to be can only be some effort to reduce emissions. It was so far off that I had to measure it several times and even then I didn't really believe it until I got confirmation from an engineer at Kelford Cams that yes, I needed to advance it probably 10-12 degrees.
There's some good information from Isky here - probably more than most people really need - but the last 2 sentences on the page basically summarize the same. Split overlap is likely the best for most applications, and the technique I use gets you there with nothing but a straight edge. www.iskycams.com/cam-degreeing.html
Good method very smart thinking but your tdc is not accurate just eyeballing it your gonna have a few degrees of dwell time, I'm gonna try this but will make a plate with nut welded on it so it'll stop short of tdc come around backwards and mark HB and come around normal till it stops then split the difference to get an exact tdc, I don't trust myself enough to eyeball tdc I could be off 10°
I would never use that key. It’s a ton weaker than the old key. That overlap between the bottom half of that key and the top half appears to be half as thick as the key itself. If that is the case that key is 50% weaker than stock. OMG!! The thickness where both offsets meet is narrower than the stock key. OMG!!!! I would correct the valve overlap issue by purchasing a new cam.
You can't find the center of TDC easily with a dial indicator because the piston dwells at TDC for many degrees of crankshaft rotation as the crank pin "rolls over" before it begins to change the direction of piston travel, the dial will essentially stay still for many degrees of crank rotation while the piston dwells at the top of it's stroke before changing direction. You have to find the center of TDC, just because the piston is all the way up, doesn't mean it's in the center (of degrees of crank rotation) The piston stop, averaging method, is the preferred way to find true TDC. Additionally, unlike ignition timing, cam timing is ALWAYS done in reference to the exhaust stroke, (not the compression stroke) because that is where "split-overlap" occurs.
If you follow the rules of pronunciation, k i e l is pronounced with a long e. Given the fact that the English do not know how to speak the English language, because it originated as a Latin language, it may very well be pronounced with a long I. At least by the person who's name it is. But I always attempt to pronounce people's names properly whether they do or not. That aside, it appears that I would set that cam at probably the advanced two mark. Many many cam makers advise people to set their cam in at a 4° advance, and is almost never correct because the can makers do not know what the setup of your cylinder head is. And it's almost always a little bit too far advanced. And you could have easily taken that Woodruff key down with a file. And you have enough adjustment in that crank Sprague to have adjusted everything you needed to adjust I don't understand why you had that offset Woodruff key. The Keith Black method. Cool, I've only seen one other person and that's Uncle Tony's garage display the Keith Black method of timing a camshaft. It is just as accurate and way faster than trying to use a degree wheel. That is excellent deflection on that Chain by the way. Just a trick of it as I have learned it, get some CRC brake Lube and dress those gear teeth with a little bit of that black CRC brake Lube in the red and white container from autozone. It doesn't take much. And I have found that that stuff is a wonderful lubricant for any metal to metal contact and it does last a long time even as oil will get to it.
This was the most simple talking video I've watched on degreeing a cam. The light in my head just turned on. Thank you very much
you can also divide 360 by the number of teeth and it will give you the degree of change each tooth will give. eg it looks like 1 tooth on the small sprocket is 15 degrees and the big sprocket is 7.5 degrees. So 1 tooth on the bottom sprocket should put you around 5 degrees advanced with no new parts
Quality camshaft knowledge. This is what I needed to see!
for those curious as to why the new lower gear he used only has plus 8 or minus 8 degrees of adjustment, is because you can go forward or backwards one entire outside chain tooth on the chain and then achieve 10 degrees adjusted timing with a different slot on the lower gear, It will not be the "timing" it says on the gear but t will be the timing he was trying to achieve, you never need the offset keyway for the camshaft... still the beat video Ive ever seen on this subject
Ya I don't understand why he didn't just jump the cam gear forward one tooth on the chain
Wow dude 😳 how did you find that out. When I was taught to dial in a car it took me awhile to understand the wheel, math hrs of scratching my head , congrats blew my mind. Thanks for that . Great job
I watched Uncle Tony do it with a feeler gauge and thought his method, while simple, was even more complex than it needed to be. All you need to find the center of overlap are the factory timing marks and a straight edge, and for most street/strip applications that's enough. Sure, if you're building top-fuel dragsters you probably want to invest in a degree wheel, but if you are building one then you don't need me telling you how to set up a cam either. LOL
@@YoshimoshiGarage ok next job is installing a posi in a c1500 1992 love a more simpler way . Thanks .
Dude, that was excellent, now I want to pull my motor apart and recheck it.
Great, as always. Man I love learning more and more about my engine!
You are a very smart person and you did this with out all them expensive,Tools this show that if you Have some skills and a little knowledge you can get the job done thank you for your time and patience to share your knowledge
That was excellent..!!
I am in the process of installing a new cam in my 5.9 magnum at this very moment..thank you..!
Thank you so much for your video. My understanding of how things work just increased exponentially.
Never heard of a timing set being installed on exhaust stroke. I always install the timing set on compression stroke. TDC no. 1.
this is the most helpful video I've watched so far, thank you
FYI . When the gears are matched dot to dot, you are actually compression stroke on #6 cylinder. Also using a degree wheel & dial indicator takes most of the guess work on camshaft centerline. Just saying
Solid presentation and narrated explanations, clear resolution, good video! Thanks
Thank you so much for putting the process in plain English.👍👍
Very very helpful, appreciate what you just shared. Thank you 👌🏻
This is actually a cool video that can work with other engines.
Thank you SO much dude. I am rebuilding an FE and everything is working except it it feels as if the cam timing is so bad I can barely get it to run. Im a mopar guy and its usually just easy, dot to dot, and Im starting to think that since I have a new timing set, it didn't install correctly because of issues like this. Going to actually pull it apart and do this kind of method to see if it is cam timing. Been driving myself nuts and this video was just what I needed to help confirm even when you do this a while, you still can drive yourself NUTS.
Outstanding Info!!! Explained to even I can understand it. Makes total sense. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us! Cheers from Motown!
Good video brother! Appreciate your knowledge and time ! Very informative video... keep em coming!✌️👊
When hot rod engines are checked for piston to valve clearances the exhaust valve is usually closest to the piston at10 degrees BTC and the intake to piston clearance is closest at 10 degrees ATDC. This means overlap of the two valves should be very close to TDC. Retarding the cam timing would drop the cranking compression by as much as 40 pounds or more. Also kill low end torque. But also lower NO2 numbers? The gas mileage would be bad. Did you see an improvement in miles per gallon from when it was new? Does the engine still pass exhaust testing?
I'm going to try this on my new engine... Learn something new everyday
I've seen this done before by Uncle Tony. My issue is, when dealing with flat tappet lifters (which aren't flat) and flat tappet cams, which are all machined with lobes that are slanted or angled slightly, plus lifter to lifter bore tolerances, running a straight edge across lifters can give inaccurate readings.
Very well Explained. Thank You
Just Check cam timing with the degree wheel folks. Thats how the professionals do it.
This is mind blowing! Thanks so much for sharing!!
Why would you only check one cylinder? Couldn't each set of lobes be off just a little? Then find the average and make adjustments from there, assuming there's some inconsistency in the cam, otherwise why degree a cam to begin with. I've never degreed a cam, just lined up the marks and called it good.
You could check them all, sure. This is assuming the cam lobes were ground properly and verifies they are aligned with the crank position. If the lobe separation changes per cylinder, there was a serious problem with the grinding machine beyond the cam blank or the axis being off by a couple degrees
So to align the 4 degree mark on the crankshaft gear I would spin (only) the crankshaft and then put the cam gear back on after?
I understand that buying that adjustable timing set is the "correct" way to adjust this thing being off by 10 or so degrees but correct me if I'm wrong, couldn't skipping a tooth or 2 on the original timing set do essentially the same thing? In addition with that offset key I would think that you could massage the timing right in to spec.
Sure, and I wouldn't say it's and less correct. You just have to figure out how many degrees one tooth is (360/total teeth)
@@YoshimoshiGarage Awesome, I just put together the rotating assembly and cam for my 5.9 mag and was gonna check the cam degree. its a regrind cam so I'm hoping its a little closer to TDC than yours was. Thanks again! this series has been a big help
@@YoshimoshiGarage 7.8 degrees per tooth
@@aldo6192 Hello. The larger cam sprocket. If it has 46 teeth that's 7.82 degrees per tooth.
I am currently working on a 360 magnum as well, doing the chain, plenum, gaskets etc (heads are not removed) - I am noting the positions of the marks before I remove the sprockets when those 2 dots face each other that is not tdc of cylinder 1 on compession stroke - that would be the exhaust stroke as the rotor is pointing to cylinder 4 at this point. These sprockets (orig dodge parts) the cam sprocket has a line 180 degrees across and it looks like the number 1 cylinder is at tdc compression when they line up
Just brilliant way of explaining.
The dots line up on the compression stroke.
A great & informative video that’s very helpful and understandable
Brilliant explanation
Just curious if you measured the lifter bodies as a pair to make sure they are exactly the same when you lay your straight edge across them….with the reputation of poor lifter quality control these days? Great video
More torque eee. Offset keys and slotted bolt holes is how we did back in the day.
Yes, but what if your lifter edges aren't machined to same height? I seen you think 1st timing set maybe made on a Friday? Like your procedure but is it as accurate as a wheel? Loved the video and not harassing your ways, thanks.
Of the lifters aren't the same height it won't work, no, though I've never seen them vary. This method is not as accurate as a wheel, no. But it's accurate enough for most home garage and street guys and doesn't require a wheel or dial indicator. It's a cheap alternative.
The hyd lifter plunger makes the difference up don't it? What about the body of lifter u are laying straight edge on, have u ever checked machine height, I think this way is great, just asking if there is any big changes in degrees u ever found that would throw reading off real far. Thanks 4 sharing this way of degreeing.
I did it the shade tree way years ago with timing to get max compression. After you find tdc
Bro finding TDC entails a dial indicator to measure the amount of degrees the piston stays still while the crank is moving. Measure when the indicator stops. Mark your wheel and rotate the same direction until the indicator starts to move again and mark the degree wheel again. Half way in between those marks it true TDC. Pistons stop at the top of stroke half way between that stop is true TDC.
I think you'd be surprised just how close you can get things using this method. Notice he's swinging back and forth and watching his piston at TDC and splitting the difference by eye. Remember, you wont know a degree or two either way without a dyno anyway to see exactly which direction would be a little bit more to your liking for street or track use, so anywhere in this ballpark will do. Even if you found true exact TDC you wont know if that's IDEAL placement anyway. All it does within a few degrees is just moves the power up or down the powerband ever so slightly. Is'nt like 2 degrees only moves the power by like 200 rpm or something? You're not even going to notice 2 degrees off one way or the other really, for street cruising, let's be honest so that small fraction you're on about, you're probably talking moving the power by 50 rpm or so anyway. This might matter at the drag strip in major high end tuning where everyone and their brother are looking for any fraction of a sliver or that quarter in blueprinted engines but a guy's engine on the street wont notice anything.
You went a long way to save that camshaft, I would have put a RV camshaft in it for better tuneing and more tourques, :)
Did you ever get this engine installed and running? Would love to hear how it's doing. I've watched all your videos multiple times. About to put my last two pistons in and press forward on my build.
So everything turned out alright then? I have a similar crank gear set that I'm going to use for my 4.6 Ford instead of adjustable cam gears, so I was curious to how they worked.
that is an old ed iskenderian trick to measure the overlap period with a straight edge on the lifters at tdc. as far as the cam timing is concerned, that is a smogger cam. by retarding the cam so much it hangs the exhaust valve open much longer after tdc, pulling exhaust back into the intake charge. the dilution of the intake charge with exhaust helps burn it, but it kills power.
How did the engine run after correcting the timing? Is there a video?
I'm not sure of your rational on the cam timing and lifter orientation @ piston TDC or your geometry of converting degrees to lineal measurement. as a circle gets smaller in circumference, the lineal measurement between each degree gets closer just like the longitudinal lines of the earth leading to each pole or the spokes of a bicycle leading to the hub. Normally, the cam intake center line is measured @ .050" intake valve lift or some number designated by the cam manufacture. I don't think they would all end up with the lifters at equal heights with piston @ TDC on every cam spec. I might be wrong but something sounds off.
We're simply measuring that both intake and exhaust are open the same amount at TDC. This is called "split overlap." The timing cover already tells us angle so we don't have to use anything else to see where they actually pass.
www.iskycams.com/cam-degreeing.html#:~:text=RELATING%20VALVE%20OVERLAP%20TO%20THE,cam's%20base%20circle%20at%20T.D.C.
he could have put the timing cover on, and it still would have been the same.
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Really helpful explanation thank you!
Advancing the cam typically will improve low RPM torque/Power. I advanced my Buick's cam 3 degrees from stock and both idle vacuum and static compression improved. I wish I'd checked lifter height at TDC but I'll do that next time for sure. Result was the top end felt like it lost some oomph but not appreciably, I wanted to improve bottom end anyway.
Then you have to remember, crank angle is 2x cam angle, to avoid confusion.
How'd your 5.9 run afterward?
I'm still building it. No real rush since I have to wait for warmer weather to put it in, plus I'll be rebuilding the 727 behind it as well.
on the magnums, the stoc cams arent very high rpm oriented anyway, so might as well improve bottom and mid range.
So now I'm not sure whether I'm confused or enlightened. I thought dot-to-dot on the timing set put us at TDC on the compression stroke for cyl 1, not the exhaust stroke. Or is this a Mopar thing? I'm in Chevy world.
Yes, I'm pretty much a beginner.
How did it run? Fixing to do this on a 98 5.2 as part of a rebuild
Why can’t you just take your stock cam chain and rotate the cam sprocket a tooth off on stock tdc
You can. Just divide 360 by the number of teeth on the gear you're skipping a tooth with. I think the cam gear gives you 7.5 degrees per tooth, but you'd want to count to be sure.
Very good video thank you, can you do the same with RV can?
Yes, this would work with nearly any cam.
@@YoshimoshiGarage thank you for your knowledge and help thank you
@@YoshimoshiGarage just do dot to dot I was able to get the keeper very nice got stuck doing advance timing like that engine very much it's a complete rebuilt 1999 thank you
I just installed a cam in my 318 that has 5 degree advance in the grind. Gona start it and break it in this weekend. If it runs ?
THIS WAS AWESOME !!!!
Would love to know how the Engine Performance turned out! I know from back in the day a chev timiing marks were at about o'clock position and later engines are more like 1230 o'clock was probably some emissions ideal,like your content!!
Thank you for the advice on the video. Can I adjust the cam with just the 4 degrees keeper and the original timing chain?
Should be able to, yes
So basically, the valve timing was retarded 10/11° at the crank, 5/6° at the cam.
Don't forget on a Mopar when you line up the dots at 12 and 6, you are actually firing the number 6 on your distributor rotor orientation.
Lining up the dots at 12 and 12 your distributor rotor will point to the #1 on the cap.....or switch them to wherever you want.
That's the real test of sanity....lol.
How do you know the outside of the harmonic balancer didn't slip or rotate from where it was supposed to be? Did you install the timing cover and verify that actual TDC lines up with the 0° mark on the cover for TDC? I've seen many older harmonic balancers slip on the old, fatigued rubber.
Yes, the balancer mark was within probably 1/2 a degree of the timing cover zero. Even the factory specs on the cam indicate it needs significant adjustment (I didn't even look them up until I saw just how far off this thing was)
Surely this depends on the inlet and exhaust cam lobes having the same amount of lift at TDC.
No. You're measuring the split overlap when the valves are nearly closed. Total lift doesn't matter.
Yoshimoshi do you know if the summit timing set works with the magnum timing cover ? That timing set doesn't show to be compatible with the magnum and I was wondering if it was because of the cover ! Which cover are you using ?
I just went out in the garage and measured a magnum and an LA timing cover and they both seem to have the same depth for the timing set. The crank and cam I'm using are both Magnum so I can't see any reason that timing set wouldn't work with a Magnum and a newer cover/serpentine setup.
@@YoshimoshiGarage Thanks, you been a big help!
You made the comment that you rotate the engine to TDC on the exhaust stroke. That’s not entirely correct. The engine doesn’t know what the exhaust stroke is. The exhaust stroke is defined by the cam so as long as the piston is at TDC, you line up the dots and it’s timed.
Excellent point.
Not trying to be nit picky. Just didn’t want your viewers to be confused trying to figure out which stroke the piston is on when it doesn’t matter. I just found your channel and subscribed.
I thought number 1 at TDC Compression stroke
Here’s what I didn’t understand, if you didn’t move the crack you had to move the cam, correct? If so, how do you achieve 6* on the crank. In my mind if you didn’t move the crank or cam just put on the variable timing gear on the crank and offset key on the cam you only moved 4*. What am I missing?
The keyways in variable timing set are broached at locations that offset the teeth of the crank gear slightly from the cam gear. It changes where the teeth are relative to one another in the same way that the offset key does on the camshaft.
Mopar performance makes a timing chain tensioner for the 5.9 i put it in my dodge van
Hi can anyone help? I have a 1999 plymouth prowler 3.5l v6 and had my sohc camshafts ground 4 degrees advanced and install intake center line of 108 and I can't find any videos on how to degree that engine any help would be greatly appreciated thanks
16:23 what do you mean by advancing it 6 degrees, did you rotate the crank or just rotated new sprocket or did you rotate cam shaft, everything went too quick
That timing set has different notches for the crank key that allow you to install it at up to 6 degrees advanced (the notch itself is cut at a position to offset it in relation to the cam gear). So I'm using the built-in notch for 6 degrees there, then I used the offset key in the cam to gain another 4 degrees of advance
Just asking does that offset keyway have enough material to hold and not break or bend? I know it's not a racing engine with alot of hp, just asking for your opinion.
Yes, there's not a huge amount of force on it, just enough to push the lifters up.
The woodruf key is ONLY for alignment ... it doesnt hold the sprockets , the nuts lock the asembly together to prevent any movement.
Great video thanks
How is this method acurate when int and ex have different lobe lifts? Lifter height wont be the same here in my understanding or opinion?
Because you're looking at the overlap when both valves are nearly closed. Total lift is irrelevant
Do I need to readjust something in the MCU when I advance the timing like you did ? Or is this just plug and play, just set the ignition timing and your done ? Is there a difference in the 360 magnum in my Jeep ZJ to the RAM engines?
I suspect they're the same engine. I don't know what this would so to the ECU - probably confuse it. This is going into a 1974 W100 with a carburetor so I didn't have to worry about an ECU in my application.
I would love to see a hp/tq difference on a dyno between those 2 settings. I just did a timing set on a 5.9 magnum and the guy thought it was a 4.7 because it was such a turd. This would be why it doesn't make any down low power and has no grunt. Wish I would have seen this 2 days ago I would have just advanced it atleast a tooth.
I'd love to see a dyno on both, too! Way outside my budget, unfortunately.
So it only works on symmetrical cams. Cams with different lifts and durations intake/exhaust it doesn’t work
It will work on anything that has a symmetric overlap. It's measuring the point where one is closing and the other is opening, so different lift and duration is fine. It starts having error if the *rate* of lift/close (so the slope on the cam) is different. How much error would depend on just how different they are.
@@YoshimoshiGarage thanks for your reply. I’m struggling to figure out an issue I’m having with extremely low idle vacuum and I keep coming back to cam timing as the possible cause. But I didn’t build my engine and I have no idea what the cam specs are. Your video has been the best advise I can find.
Low vacuum at idle means that, for some reason, when the piston is moving down, air is getting pulled in from somewhere other than the intake. I assume you've done the usual looking for leaks. If there are none, then it has to be at the valve. Obvious worst case would be a burnt valve, but I also assume you've got good compression. So that leaves "the exhaust valve must be still open for part of the travel of the piston" so your theory on possible timing problems is solid. Does the distributor have vacuum advance? Is it hooked to manifold or ported vacuum (should be manifold)? Higher lift cams often have longer duration, and long duration cams tend to have a longer overlap. That overlap is when both valve are open. If you advance the cam, that overlap happens sooner, meaning more of the overlap will be in the exhaust stroke, and less in the intake, which usually increases vacuum (and *importantly* decreases valve/piston clearance!)
@@YoshimoshiGarage havnt had the vehicle very long but the amount of incorrect under the bonnet makes me worry. Piston to valve clearance is my biggest concern also. I havnt done a compression test yet but no obvious signs of ring wear, no blue smoke and the plugs read good. It pulls hard between 3000rpm and 6000. I’ve checked for vacuum leaks every which way. Disconnected ALL lines and sprayed flammable material all over the intake and carb while running with no change in idle speed. So as far as I can tell no external vacuum leaks. Other than maybe an internal/ valley side intake leak but can’t really check that. My next step is compression check, then remove intake and check gasket for leaks. It’ll that’s all good it would have to be valve related. Here’s fingers crossed it’s not a burnt valve lol. I think if it was it would need to be multiple because my vacuum is 6-8in at 1000rpm with 20deg ignition timing. At 3000rpm 20-21in.
My distributor is a progression ignition unit, good bit of kit I have to say.
@@YoshimoshiGarage just in case anyone was chasing similar issues I’ve got an update. My engine has a solid roller cam so I was able to back off lash from 16/18thou to 22/24thou. Picked up considerable idle vacuum. Now sits at 10in at 800rpm. I also increase idle timing to 22deg and it seems to like it. I’d say my cam is just rather rad haha
I have a 1997 5.2 im doing the top end on. I’m going to check if mine is same way. But I’m using stock fuel injection. If I did that, would it mess it up?
Great question, and all I can do is guess here. All fuel injection uses sensors fed into a computer to determine how much fuel to deliver and when. Newer FI systems are quite complex and likely "know" about the cam profile and timing to be able to best achieve ideal fuel/air mixture. Software changes (i.e. "tuning") can make changes to the desired output of the computer (how rich to make the mixture under specific conditions. Now older FI systems were dumber - the computer just wasn't as good, sensors were less accurate and slower, and the injectors themselves had limitations. I suspect that early FI computers didn't know about the cam curve or timing, they just did a real-time look at a few sensors (O2, TPS, MAP, and MAF) did a calculation of how much fuel is needed for the amount of air coming in, and squirted it. The one question there is that the "when" of the squirt is figured out by two things: a crank trigger (or distributor hall effect sensor) telling it when it's at TDC and, almost certainly, some sort of number in the software that says "squirt X milliseconds after the crank trigger fires." So the FI system would certainly be able to know "how much" fuel regardless of cam-to-crank timing, but I'm not sure it would know the "when to squirt." I also don't know if the difference would be big enough to make much difference. You would think that the factory engineers would have made it ideal to begin with, but they don't - well they try to make it ideal for low emissions, not ideal for maximum power. So if you made this change and kept the FI its near certain that emissions would get worse, but it's very possible that performance would get better, It's also possible that it would get worse. My git says it's like an 80/20 split in probability, so it's more likely to be better, but really it's something that I'd love to ask a camshaft engineer to explain to us. I don't know any, though. So, after all that rambling, if you got this far in my response then congrats, I've probably not helped you at all and maybe just made you more confused. What would *I* do? I'd put on the FI and see how it works, but be prepared to swap to a carb in the event the computer can't figure it out and perf goes to crap.
Can I do on LS engine?
Sure. Anything with a symmetric split overlap cam - which is most engines - can be checked this way
is this the same for a 305 sbc???? also great video!!!!!!
Yes, it would be the same process
Love your channel and video presentation style. Another great video, but 4 comments. First, I've never heard a rule that all cams cause identical valve lift for both valves at TDC. All sorts of cam grinds out there, I'm sure some intentionally break that rule. Second, IMO it's ridiculous that you can't get a real cam card and lift graph for a modern-day cam. I have many graphs for various 1960s-era Corvair cams. Third, you did not investigate using the stock gears, offsetting the timing marks. Maybe 10 degrees or thereabouts could be had by offsetting the timing marks. Fourth, most other builders look at peak valve lift to determine proper cam position, to me that seems more important than matching lift at TDC.
There may well be some odd profiles that the rate is asymmetric but the range of overlap is small for most anything but the most radical of cams, assuming symmetric is likely within a half a degree or better.
I was surprised the factory service manual didn't have better specs on the cam as well, but that's all they had.
Skipping a tooth on a standard timing set probably would have worked to take a large amount of the difference out, but honestly I didn't think of it until after I ordered the set, and I thought showing an offset timing set might be more applicable to a wider range of applications where you don't need such a crazy amount of advance.
Many guys swear by a degree wheel, and you can get more info with one, but this method is nice because it can quickly check to see if zero is where you think it actually is without any special tools.
Thanks for your quick reply, Yoshimoshi! Yes, after some searching I see that your split overlap check is legit. TYVM for teaching me this. Uncle Tony agrees at th-cam.com/video/AUJ_4csQuu8/w-d-xo.html Fantastic work of yours, I'm a fan. Will check this on the Corvair motor I'm building right now.
You are right, sir! Just checked this today on my Corvair engine: th-cam.com/video/pgdJjo5dg8k/w-d-xo.html
are lifter bodies lengths even manufactured consistent enough to do that straight edge trick?........
A great question. This method does reply on them all being the same length. I've found them to be accurate enough over the decades for this to work, and I just checked several spares that I had from another 360 magnum and they are all within 0.001"
A professional cam designer once taught me how much of a common mistake it is for people to miss the "0" mark on the TOOTH of the crankshaft gear, and that it's that mark on the TOOTH that needs to be used to line up with the camshaft gear. I don't know why timing gear manufactures stamp more "0" marks in their crankshaft gears than one, but they do, and it can be confusing to the person installing the camshaft. I believe this applies here to this video. Do you really believe that the car manufacture installed the cams for these engines 11 degrees off??? I don't think so. It appears that the guy in this video has it wrong and is using the wrong "0" mark on the crankshaft gear. Take a look at the 55 second mark and the 1:20 second mark of this video and if you look closely, you can see another "0" mark stamped near the tooth of the crankshaft gear. I think that was the correct mark to use, and not the one that has been used. At least that's how it is with SBC and BBC engines. You use the "0" mark on the TOOTH
Well, since I verified it with an actual cam manufacturer and their engineer came up with the same number I did just based on the cam card, yes, I do believe it is factory ground that way.
He put factory timing chain back on and came up with same thing, so he was right !
@@jeremyking5684 Jeremy, swapping the timing chain wouldn't make any difference if the "0" mark on the crankshaft gear located near the slot or anywhere else other than near the tooth was used. The "0" mark next to the crank gear TOOTH is what needs to be used.
You are assuming the camshaft has the same duration for both intake and exhaust as well as the same lobe centerline. Is this the case? This stuff wouldn't work on any other camshaft.
Not same duration, just symmetric slopes. If they're not identical, this won't be exact, but the reality is that you're only looking at the small slice of overlap, so even if they aren't symmetric you're still likely to be within a degree
This would work on every camshaft. The duration is irrelevant. You're just looking at the one point of split-overlap which should be at TDC on the exhaust stroke on virtually every 4 stroke engine. A cam is considered advanced or retarded if the point of split-overlap is moved one way or the other from TDC.
Nice just saved me 120 on a degree kit
Perfect.
We just bought fat keys and ground em by hand or with a surface grinder.
The worst thing to do is advance a cam with lots of duration without checking valve clearance. Lots of advance can cause lots of reversion especially with stock heads and an open plenum intake.
It's the crank gear. It does not work with aftermarket cam sprocket
Thanks
Thanks mucho for the info, yoshi! comments;
those CL numbers define a cam that's retarded by 8 degrees by my figures.
and eyeballing TDC where the piston moves so little at the top of the stroke can make for trouble. i find it more accurate to drop the piston a measured 1.5 inch and mark the damper then rotate it so it goes thru TDC and then down exactly the same 1.5 inch, mark that and then TDC will be half way between the two marks on the damper. you can do the same thing with the heads on by taking a plug out and using a pice of coat hanger wire to measure the piston drop.
Anyone coming here as of late can find the factory cam specs in the shop manual..gives overlap and valve events.
How did it run? I don't believe you covered that. I'll be doing this with my magnum 5.2 soon as part of a refresh.
Awsome vid
have done adjustment here in ozz with a 5 liter v8 by just turning cam to advance checking it with crank you are going a longway round
to achieve this
If you don't have a crank Gear with multiple keyway slots can you just move the chain one tooth or would that be way too many degrees?
With as far off as this is, one tooth on the cam gear might work. Count the teeth and divide 360 by that number to get the degrees per tooth.
,,,,Somehow there is gross mis-information printed on that 5.9 cam card you have in the video @ 11:61 run time......The card states the intake valve opens at 7 degrees BBDC...... Intake valves open somewhere BTDC,,,,and close somewhere ABDC......The overlap events take place before and after TDC........Also,,,,the card shows , valve overlap being 41 degrees........the events around TDC are noted as 7 degrees for Intake opening , and 33 degrees for EX closure......When added together 7 and 33 equal 40,,,not 41 as noted on the card......I enjoyed the mechanical common sense approach and explanation.......but double check that 5.9 cam card........
That's a photo right from the factory service manual for a late 90's dodge truck.
Just moving the cam back to straight up is going to totally wake this engine up! Hole crap.
There are several things here. I do not agree with. We'll start with the simplest.
When you measure the timing hashes on the cover against your caliper, those are not equal measurements. You're trying to measure an arc with a straight line measurement. Tose things don't jive. The arc is a longer distance. Then that straight line, you're measuring with your caliper. There are other inaccuracies here, but i'm not going into it any farther. The one I pointed out is good enough for starters
Absolutely! On a 6-inch circle, the different between a chord and an arc of 5 degrees is a whole 0.0002 inches!
🤔 I am having a difficult time following your logic using your methods. For a more accurate assessment of timing you really need to use dial indicator and degree wheel for more precise measurements.
It's fairly simple. There's a point between the exhaust stroke and the intake stroke when both valves are slightly open. This happens on all 4-stroke engines, from lawn mowers to cars. Right before the exhaust fully closes and as the intake is opening. This method has them passing right at TDC, which is where it should happen for nearly any cam regardless of lift or duration. It's called split overlap.
Does this coincide with the cam settings recommended by the cam manufacturer for the the intake lobe ie 106 degrees?
This is a factory cam, so you can only guess at the recommendations, but it doesn't really matter. Generally speaking camshafts perform best when the overlap is equally split. In some cases (I'd say likely never for street use) you might want it to be a degree or two advanced. But retarded 10+ degrees like these appear to be can only be some effort to reduce emissions. It was so far off that I had to measure it several times and even then I didn't really believe it until I got confirmation from an engineer at Kelford Cams that yes, I needed to advance it probably 10-12 degrees.
There's some good information from Isky here - probably more than most people really need - but the last 2 sentences on the page basically summarize the same. Split overlap is likely the best for most applications, and the technique I use gets you there with nothing but a straight edge.
www.iskycams.com/cam-degreeing.html
Very interesting. Next time I set one up I’ll try it both ways and see how it turns out. Thanks for the info.
Thanks,
Good method very smart thinking but your tdc is not accurate just eyeballing it your gonna have a few degrees of dwell time, I'm gonna try this but will make a plate with nut welded on it so it'll stop short of tdc come around backwards and mark HB and come around normal till it stops then split the difference to get an exact tdc, I don't trust myself enough to eyeball tdc I could be off 10°
I would never use that key. It’s a ton weaker than the old key. That overlap between the bottom half of that key and the top half appears to be half as thick as the key itself. If that is the case that key is 50% weaker than stock. OMG!! The thickness where both offsets meet is narrower than the stock key. OMG!!!! I would correct the valve overlap issue by purchasing a new cam.
Compression stroke TDC WITH a dial indicator , not exhaust both valve closed.
You can't find the center of TDC easily with a dial indicator because the piston dwells at TDC for many degrees of crankshaft rotation as the crank pin "rolls over" before it begins to change the direction of piston travel, the dial will essentially stay still for many degrees of crank rotation while the piston dwells at the top of it's stroke before changing direction. You have to find the center of TDC, just because the piston is all the way up, doesn't mean it's in the center (of degrees of crank rotation) The piston stop, averaging method, is the preferred way to find true TDC. Additionally, unlike ignition timing, cam timing is ALWAYS done in reference to the exhaust stroke, (not the compression stroke) because that is where "split-overlap" occurs.
Only advanced it 7°
You only get half of your crank gear setting. 6÷2=3 +4=7
I know some of the Ford motors in the 1970s was retarded at least four degrees the cause of spark knock
If you follow the rules of pronunciation, k i e l is pronounced with a long e. Given the fact that the English do not know how to speak the English language, because it originated as a Latin language, it may very well be pronounced with a long I. At least by the person who's name it is. But I always attempt to pronounce people's names properly whether they do or not.
That aside, it appears that I would set that cam at probably the advanced two mark. Many many cam makers advise people to set their cam in at a 4° advance, and is almost never correct because the can makers do not know what the setup of your cylinder head is. And it's almost always a little bit too far advanced. And you could have easily taken that Woodruff key down with a file. And you have enough adjustment in that crank Sprague to have adjusted everything you needed to adjust I don't understand why you had that offset Woodruff key.
The Keith Black method. Cool, I've only seen one other person and that's Uncle Tony's garage display the Keith Black method of timing a camshaft. It is just as accurate and way faster than trying to use a degree wheel. That is excellent deflection on that Chain by the way. Just a trick of it as I have learned it, get some CRC brake Lube and dress those gear teeth with a little bit of that black CRC brake Lube in the red and white container from autozone. It doesn't take much. And I have found that that stuff is a wonderful lubricant for any metal to metal contact and it does last a long time even as oil will get to it.