@@Staro69ok thats a way better name i used to call it grift as I didn't have a name for it as my drifts seemed different from everyone else's they were more stabilized and less squirely after the turn/unruly since I kept the grip on all four tires and just mash the gas out of the apex this only seems to work in slower cars though unless your in such a fast car that you can just overpower the rear on a dime but most people never even get the chance to get in a car that fast
Slip Angle also known as or similar to the 4-Wheel Drift, where you use the monetum of the car to rotate it and little to no countersteer is needed. It's said to be the fastest way around a corner. This technique was mentioned in an Initial D episode if I recall.
Slip angle is 4 wheel drift, except slip angle is under or on the limit of grip of tires, 4 wheel drift is over that limit. The rest is pretty much the same about them
For those interested in the music here, the BGM played during the drift run is called Shogun - Pegasus. Shogun (AKA Artemis) is a pioneer in the Drum N Bass scene, and it is likely that this entire video utilizes his music. Definitely, someone to listen to.
@@TSRB drifting physics in Livefor speed is awesome too but there's no track mods well there's on open maps but it's not the same as assetto... You can drive the demo and try yourself ;) And by the way good vidéo!
@@TSRB they made some improvements in case of you played long time ago ;) an update is just out today before the big one planned... Personnally i enjoy assetto atm :p
I dont think takumi actually went fast because he didnt want the tofu to get cold he went fast because he hated driving and wanted to get home asap dont know if im misremembering stuff but thats what I know
He went fast on the uphill to stop the tofu getting cold, but had to drive very carefully to avoid damaging it. After he delivers the tofu at the top of the mountain, there was nothing slowing him down on the downhill, so he raced back to get home quickly.
I feel like drift used to be faster back in the day when it was invented. But over the years cars just got way more grip and could maintain a lot more speed because of that going for a grip style.
with shit tires and low power it would probably be faster since with a good drift you could keep more speed through the corner, kinda like rallying, well, exactly like rallying.
@@caralho5237 oh this is what I am looking for I tried to prove that both, I did not say in between was going to get you faster, cause he hate Drifting, actually he misinterpeted me cause he don't know that the both I am talking about is in this video.
Its cool to see an analysis like this. For me personally I never really thought about it too much. To me it always felt like pushing the car on its absolute limit to where you kinda “glide” around the corner as i like to call it. Interesting!
For interested fellower viewers, I recommend you guys go watch how Keiichi Tsuchiya teaches Zero Counter drifting, it's pretty much the real life version of Fujiwara Zone. And hopefully you guys could get more of this zero counter, it's such a cool way to corner.
It does not matter if it understeers or oversteers only whatever produces more overall net grip on all 4 tyres for the longest average time through an entire corner that is it. Under and over steer are not a goal they are a consequence. The only exception to this is corners where steering lock is not enough to make a turn or when understeer is excessive but even they both technically fit the description above.
I believe the reason we see takumi drifting and counter steering so much during his Akina races is simply because it's his home course. He knows how to drift corners without losing much speed or maybe he even drifts on some corners to deliberately slowdown and enter then exit a next corner much faster. Besides Akina was his early touge days, he got much better throughout the series.
keisuke's first encounter with takumi proved that when he intentionally went into a corner too fast to use it as a setup to feint the car into the left hair pin coming up. No normal or sane person would do that unless they knew the course as well as takumi. later on though he got a lot less flashy. Starting from his race with Shingo and the gum tape death match.
Very nice video! If I remember correctly there was actually a scene in the anime that pointed out that Takumi was sliding on all four wheels just as you would in slip-angle driving!
Back in the 1980s, drifting was used for going faster, you grip the car into the corner and only drift half of the corner, gassing it half-way to bring the car sideways. It's much faster and looks more stylish.
@@xXEP1C1337Xx Of course! if you'd like to see that in action; here is a video: th-cam.com/video/GT7tBW4di7M/w-d-xo.html&. This was the late 80s-early 90s, this is just drift practicing so nothing competitive, but you can see the drivers gripping into the corner and using the throttle to break traction halfway through the corner. It's a really nice way to drift, preservers tire life, and is a lot quicker than trying to link corners and initiate a drift too early into a corner.
This video took away all my doubts, proving to me that a "Total Grip" is faster than a grip-drift, and also showed me how the slip angle can be useful. To tell the truth, I've been using the slip angle for a while, on gran turismo 4, I just didn't know it was a technique, and, well, I have a lot to improve. Perfect video
You gotta think like a rally driver. Corners 1 and 2 you can easily flat out on a good racing line or simply lift the throttle. Slip driving starts being useful after this point and hairpins you're better off drifting, especially if you're driving a turbocharged car (some rally drivers did this to keep the turbo spooled and avoid the lag)
My tips. Start slow and build speed. Better to have no slip and stay on lines than to fly off. For perfect slip angle, in my experience, the most important thing is corner entry and the balance of the car upon entry. Turn in while lifting off brake so that weight is still forward and rear begins to slip, some slight countersteer may be necessary. You should pretty much coast into the corner with some rear wheel slippage, small amounts of brake can be used to help with rotation but can also induce understeer so be careful. The more sideways the car while braking, the more it will rotate. Then on exit, release brake and use the power to keep the weight to the rear of the car so that it can slip then carry that weight all the way to the outside upon exit. With low power cars like this typically the earlier you can get on the throttle the quicker you will be. Ideally, on a perfect entry, you don't even need to countersteer as the slide mid turn is applied across all 4 wheels, countersteer does not utilize all the front grip, hopefully that makes sense. Again the most important thing in my experience is nailing the entry and having the correct speed through the turn. Create brake markers in your head and adjust accordingly. Sorry for the document just thought this might help someone and I love sim racing.
It would be lovely if you could go a little more in-depth on the slip angle stuff and make a video about it,.I enjoy drifting and grip driving but I'm really willing to taking it to another level when I get my wheel. I would really like to learn how to do the technique. Anyways great video, keep it up!
This is a great analysis of Touge drifting and Initial D driving styles. One thing I would like to make note of though (I am so stinking late so I guess it doesn't really matter) is that while I 100% agree that he uses slip angle to clear corners (and a lot of the drifting is pretty heavily exaggerated in the show... I think the angles were pumped way up for the wow factor in the early shows), they also make mention that he uses drifting to scrub off speed. So on a lot of the corners in the show where you get a good shot at what he is doing, he pretty much does all his braking in the straights pretty much just to weight transfer the car and get the rear to step out. No matter how fast he's going, he never does more than a full second of braking just to set the car up for a corner. Also, the faster he is going, the earlier you can see him setting up his slides. I think he does this mostly as a way of scrubbing off his speed before a corner while simultaneously setting up his angle for actually attacking the corner. So basically on lesser, fast corners, its just full slip angle through the whole corner, but on much tighter corners, it seems to be drift in for setup and speed scrubbing, and then slip angle out for maximum speed. This is just what I noticed as he really only seems to come into the understanding of slip angle driving (well... more towards that than drifting) in the show with the gum tape death match as he had to minimize his counter steer just to survive that race. In doing so he actually makes a mental note that with the smaller counter steer usage he is actually clearing the corners faster. These are just things I noticed though... none of this may be accurate or based in any sort of fact. Nice driving either way and great explanation... you got a sub from me!
Tsuchiya was a technical consultant on Initial D and he was the one who really popularized this technique, it's still drifting but it's not the same as what drifting is today. In a recent video on the Carprime English Channel Tsuchiya tried a modern drift car and they compared old school drifiting to speed skating and the new style to figure skating.
I think, they are talking in Initial D about exact this technique. There is moment where, I think it is his father, talks about drifting is only fast, when you drift over all four tires and not only the back wheels, while the front wheels are controlling the angle. So I would say you nailed it. The inside angle while "slipping" will keep you on track while you are faster than with the grip style. I am trying this with my Dr!ft model cars by Sturmkind.
This is the video ive been searching for years, i thought i was crazy when i thought its faster to slide the car on the crazy (im a noob driver i cant do stuff like that) you deserve a sub for interesting video like this also i do have some question Late brake or get on power early??
Thanks man! Late braking or early throttle depends entirely on a corner. In my "How to touge" video I talk a little about this topic so maybe that could help :)
When driving for the fastest time, it is good to let the tires spin a little when you are taking corners. A tires maximum grip is when it is slightly spinning on the very edge of starting to do a burnout and not spinning at all. Getting the tires to this edge is very hard and is often changing while your driving but the benefit from the extra grip can be felt by the speed carried and the shit in your pants from how scary it is. Especially when it's your first time experiencing it. I learned this in a gokart that went like 50mph, took one of the back corners of the track flat foot. Stopped 3centimeters away from a brick wall going about 39mph. Looking back on it, if i hit the wall, i would've 100%flipped and get stuck under a 50 pound kart while strapped in :)
Honestly it does make sense considering you never see any tire smoke other than at the start of a race or when someone is losing it and basically drifting
Oh so that's what it means. In the anime Takumi was racing against an old guy in a purple Honda S2000, known as God Hand or something. And it was mention in the anime that he's using a technique not drift & not grip either but something in between. Obviously I had no idea what they're talking about 😅 but after hearing your explanation, I kinda get what it means....
Slip angle is god hand technic if I'm not wrong. Takumi's drift looks more like a 4 wheel drift, he stopped overcountersteering when he faced Shingo on the tape battle. He realized that the less he countersteer the more he's faster
Takumi learned to drift in the way of slip angle as he grew by the time he battled with Ryosuke Takahashi. The master of slip angle drifting in Initial D is Toshiya Joshima who was called "the god of one hand steering" driving S2000. (Comment from Japan)
I dont know if my years of racing fwd cars had a doing in it but slip angle came to me almost naturally, the feeling of taking a fast corner and your rear wheel grip becoming loose is almost the same, idk but it felt pretty natural ( im not talking about simracing, im talking about actual racing)
another advantage to drifting is. if you have a turbocharged car. keeping the rev up while drifting means you wont have to wait for the turbo to go back up when accel
Slip angle might be much faster when it comes to touge and tracks. This technique is used by takumi fujiwara in initial d which you both use grip and drift. This is when how much the wheel has twisted. By straightening the corners, the much faster your time will be.
You need to find and watch Best Motoring’s Drift Bible. It’s the OG Drift King Tsuchiya Keiichi explaining and demonstrating his 5 different drifting techniques, one of which is fast drifting. And oh yeah… he was the Technical Director for Initial D… so, he was the brains behind how Takumi Fujiwara drove.
Something that I find a lot more mysterious is the speed as it's portrayed in the show. It always portrays drift as wild and demonically fast yet it looks really slow in real life when compared. Is this because the show is unrealistic or because they drive better than people in real life or does the way way it's stylised make it appear as though it's faster than it really is?
Definitely sped up for a dramatic effect. There actually is a video game based on Initial D where the cars drift similarly to the show. The end result looks basically like Mario Kart drifting where the car gets a demonic speed boost from 4-wheel drifting, whereas in real life the drag would slow down the momentum you're carrying.
you're right. 4 wheel drive/ no countersteer drift. He's utilizing slip angle when they're talking about it. He first learned how to do it during his gum tape death match, when he wasn't able to steer as much so was forced to balance between grip and drift (slip angle)
Noticed I do that when racing. But its much easier to do with a wheel setup than with a controller. This would explain why my times on the wheel are much faster.
The important part are the tires. Different tires have different optimal slip angles. E.g a modern GT3 has an ideal slip angle of around 3°. The "slip driving" usually appears when you have perfected trail braking on a track. What I've seen in the video you probably still have a bit too much angle. You can actually feel front tire slip angle. The higher the slip angle the stringer the ffb gets until you go over the limit. Then the ffb becomes lighter (if the rear has enough grip).
I feel like you using Toshiya Joshima, the god hand's technique could be a great learning technique for getting a good slip angle and understanding the 4 wheel drift. Although I do see myself spinning out a lot in the beginning, that's the upside of sim racing - you can crash as many times as you need.
Driving at the peak capability of the tire will induce slip angle. Slip angle is not a different style of driving between grip and drift - it’s the peak of grip driving. Essentially, there’s a point in the grip curve where slip angle starts to occur and grip continues to grow. Depending on the kind of tire, the area of peak grip and slip angle could be flat or peaky. Typically more aggressive compounds will have a sharp peak, while less aggressive tires will have more of a plateau - meaning you can slip a bit more while attaining similar levels of grip. A peak-y tire will go from maximum grip to snap over/under-steer depending on which tires are exceeding peak grip.
It's always brought up that it's more of a four wheel drive drift. Using all four wheels gets youmore speed out of the exit, especially compared to your typical drift. One where you're controlling the angle of the car through the front two tires, at least that's my analysis of it. Also, the cup challenge could work with the slip angle compared to a full on drift angle.
Rotating the car using the throttle and the gears is also Verstappen's driving style, but in a much more grippy way obviously. He uses controlled oversteer to make the corner faster than how the car should. I'm so noob in simracing and the more I learn, the more I discover that perfect academic driving isn't the fastest. But this isn't bad, it makes racing more interesting in my opinion.
there is a part is the anime at least..that Bunta(takumi's dad) changes the set up and takumi learns that with less counter steering and using the throttle to turn the car he is faster.and prior to that he seemed to more use a combination of drift and grip depending on the corner..at least thats how i always seen it
Its not only slip angle, its also because a tyre has the most lateral grip if it slides just a tiny little bit, lets say 101% of the theoretical force it can transfer. The reason is the rubber gets pushed harder into micro structures of the road as if the tyre would be at 100%. Just a little bit more, lets say 102% and you loose all that grip and the tyre goes into sliding friction.
Dude i had a come to Jesus moment when he explained the slip angle method, i have also in Forza or GT used it and just thought i was "turning with style". lol Now to go practice my "driping" style.
Wait, did the sub f up somewhere? The version i know is that he always send the tofu in the early morning but he wants to sleep more so he keeps driving faster and faster instead of the tofu got cold
@@TSRB well, tofu is stored cold so it would've been in cold water haha. Bunta forced takumi to first drive smoother using the water cup, since the tofu would break if it was treated roughly. Then Takumi started to drive faster cause he wanted to get home sooner. He didn't even like driving, which was his motivation to get faster. The faster he could get home the quicker he could be done driving for his dad.
When it comes down to driving style this is where it becomes controversial as it's meant to be more of subjective and personal than an objective, "is it faster to do this or that?" So grip or drift doesn't matter, just the driver
Personally I don't think this is true. If you take a look at any real life motorsport, or even any top tier sim races they're all using the same cornering techniques. I mentioned slip angle at the end of the video, and that it is the fastest. All F1 drivers use slip angle to corner, from the front of the grid to the rear. And all the top sim racers use slip angle to corner. If you take a look a replay of one of your best lap times I guarantee you were using slip angle.
@@TSRB then again that's just an oddly specific way of saying grip driving, and it's not entirely purely drift driving either like the type that touge 86T drivers do with drift style of low slips. Slip Angles is just a term used to describe the amount of slip a tire has anyways, not an actual form of driving style, though I'm not saying grip doesn't equate to not having slip angles as it's entirely impossible to corner without those, I'm just saying that it's grip and doesn't have to be unnecessarily complicated with more labels like slip angles or 0 countersteer four wheel drifting when they're just driving normally at the car's peak
The front tyres' angle can be easily altered with the use of steering wheel, so it's much easier to control the front tyres' slip angle. The rear ones usually are pointed towards the front, so the only way to have a better slip angle is to swing/slide the rear slightly. This is, in a sense, different from grip driving, where the car rear tyres stay at the absolute minimum slip angle. I do agree that having so many labels is very cumbersome, as it's just a simplified version of saying "adequate car rotation"
Ryosuke says that grip is faster and that's kind of the point of Final Stage. Ryosuke also says that Takumi drifts because its easier to dodge incoming traffic. How that works, I have no clue. Its also funny that Takumi doesn't actually drift all the time in 4th and 5th stage, only on specific corners. Then, the hammer in the point that Shinji is faster with grip than drift, he drifts every corner in final stage.
5:00 I think you had too much speed halfway through the hairpin, which made you oversteer and slightly miss the apex, then had to countersteer a bit which gave the grip car the lead. In a perfect driving scenario,, the drift car would get the lead and exit the corner with as much speed as the grip car. Also what you refer to as slip angle I think is just perfect drifting, meaning never having to countersteer after a corner. It's just much harder compared to just gripping the whole way. Takumi had to learn that on the duct tape deathmatch
The real issue here is just the naming. This was "drifting" back in the early 90's and prior decades when it was done for speed, especially on Touge's. Once it gained popularity and people started doing it for 'show' rather than speed, drifting became this. That also happened in the 90's though, and there is even commentary in Initial D about this with Nakazato's character (R32) commenting on how drifting is slower because of the "slow crab walk" drifting has devolved into.
Ah not really, sure minimal countersteer means ur angle isnt excessive and that means you're faster than a high angled drift, but that isnt what 4 wheel drift is about, 4 wheel drift is a normal drift but your front steering wheels are also understeering (contrary to normal drifts where your front is gripping with the rear sliding), meaning all four wheels are slipping
What you called "slip" was actually just "grip" but with more grip. There's more grip because you have enabled sufficient yaw angle of the car such that both the front and rear tyres are both operating at their optimal slip angles. When the rear is closer to their optimal, the front steering wheel need not be turned as much for the fronts to also be at their optimal slip angles. Therefore, the sum total of cornering forces from all four tyres are the highest under this condition. I realise I'm commenting on a 3 year old video and that you've probably come to realise this already though.
when tyres have %12 slipping they have max grip, but this is causing overheating + wearing tyres and unusable in track racing and making a stable drift is harder than turning normal
Actually the real touge runs here on this track, drivers stay in one lane, so if you want to be realistic about how the real life runners do it, stick to one lane. It’s amazing to actually see
depends on car adjust but still if grip is bad enough the winner who is keeping car on the verge to counter steer(actual sleep angle) and best race line also needed
The answer is given by rallying, as they are driving similar courses. What is their use? In some corners, yes is faster to drift. In SOME corners, but most need grip to go faster
What's faster, drift or grip? The answer: DRIP
Lol 😂
Haha silly car you can't have drip
Car drip:
@@tabbygravy6738 that car acting kinda sus
@@CorruptInfinityOfficial DING DING DING DING DING DING DING
Damn you but Thank you xD
5:52 "As you can see, it isn't quite drifting, nor gripping. Its somewhere in between"
Dr. Toshiya Joshima, Aka GodHand - THAT'S MY BOY
Damn how much more initial D videos will you be commenting on? 🤣
Neutral steer slip angle
was gonna say, this WAS what GodHand was doing
Shingo too. I think he could be really good if he cleaned up his act
DOOORYYYYAAAAA
Pov: you realized youve been using slip angle techniques rather than grip this whole time
think about it, imagine someone saying that they do drip and then see they do slip angle
@@Staro69 AHAHAHAHA
@@Staro69ok thats a way better name i used to call it grift as I didn't have a name for it as my drifts seemed different from everyone else's they were more stabilized and less squirely after the turn/unruly since I kept the grip on all four tires and just mash the gas out of the apex this only seems to work in slower cars though unless your in such a fast car that you can just overpower the rear on a dime but most people never even get the chance to get in a car that fast
@@dr.dylansgame5583 the fact that grift is now a word makes me wanna laugh so hard
@@Staro69 same ive heard a couple of other people refer to it as grift and it made me laugh my ass off
Slip Angle also known as or similar to the 4-Wheel Drift, where you use the monetum of the car to rotate it and little to no countersteer is needed. It's said to be the fastest way around a corner. This technique was mentioned in an Initial D episode if I recall.
Wata kup technique
that sounds like rallying with an awd car.
@@tktspeed1433 yes its based in rally
Slip angle is 4 wheel drift, except slip angle is under or on the limit of grip of tires, 4 wheel drift is over that limit. The rest is pretty much the same about them
For those interested in the music here, the BGM played during the drift run is called Shogun - Pegasus. Shogun (AKA Artemis) is a pioneer in the Drum N Bass scene, and it is likely that this entire video utilizes his music. Definitely, someone to listen to.
The entire channel utilises his music lmao
thanks so much man
drum and bass is the best
Good video, great to see touge still getting attention and vids that aren't just personal best times or runs in general
Still one of the best disciplines in Assetto in my opinion, it isn't something you can get anywhere else!
@@TSRB drifting physics in Livefor speed is awesome too but there's no track mods well there's on open maps but it's not the same as assetto... You can drive the demo and try yourself ;) And by the way good vidéo!
@@phosphore7991 I've tried live for speed before, pretty fun sim, thank you!
@@TSRB they made some improvements in case of you played long time ago ;) an update is just out today before the big one planned... Personnally i enjoy assetto atm :p
I dont think takumi actually went fast because he didnt want the tofu to get cold he went fast because he hated driving and wanted to get home asap dont know if im misremembering stuff but thats what I know
He went fast because he wanted to go back to bed since he had school next morning
No, you're remembering correctly.
Takumi just wanted to be done with it tbh
He hated helping with Buntas business so he drives as fast as possible to get it over with they literally say it in the first season
He went fast on the uphill to stop the tofu getting cold, but had to drive very carefully to avoid damaging it. After he delivers the tofu at the top of the mountain, there was nothing slowing him down on the downhill, so he raced back to get home quickly.
I feel like drift used to be faster back in the day when it was invented. But over the years cars just got way more grip and could maintain a lot more speed because of that going for a grip style.
with shit tires and low power it would probably be faster since with a good drift you could keep more speed through the corner, kinda like rallying, well, exactly like rallying.
its harder to do slip angle if you have a ton of downforce maybe thats why
@@caralho5237 or grip in general really
@@caralho5237 oh this is what I am looking for I tried to prove that both, I did not say in between was going to get you faster, cause he hate Drifting, actually he misinterpeted me cause he don't know that the both I am talking about is in this video.
Its cool to see an analysis like this. For me personally I never really thought about it too much. To me it always felt like pushing the car on its absolute limit to where you kinda “glide” around the corner as i like to call it. Interesting!
For interested fellower viewers, I recommend you guys go watch how Keiichi Tsuchiya teaches Zero Counter drifting, it's pretty much the real life version of Fujiwara Zone. And hopefully you guys could get more of this zero counter, it's such a cool way to corner.
Hey, I can't seem to find that, where can I see it?
Wow very good video, seriously underrated. I've learned so much more about grip and drift methods than any other video I've watched.
Glad you liked it!
hey we have really similar setups haha. really nice vid, you deserve way more subs!
Can't go wrong with a bit of Fanatec! Thanks for the kind words :)
i thought you used a messed up G920, did you upgrade?
@@drfanum yup
It does not matter if it understeers or oversteers only whatever produces more overall net grip on all 4 tyres for the longest average time through an entire corner that is it. Under and over steer are not a goal they are a consequence. The only exception to this is corners where steering lock is not enough to make a turn or when understeer is excessive but even they both technically fit the description above.
God arm:
5:31 "in the initial D Cartoon" that really made my eyes pop, but overall nice test
I believe the reason we see takumi drifting and counter steering so much during his Akina races is simply because it's his home course. He knows how to drift corners without losing much speed or maybe he even drifts on some corners to deliberately slowdown and enter then exit a next corner much faster. Besides Akina was his early touge days, he got much better throughout the series.
keisuke's first encounter with takumi proved that when he intentionally went into a corner too fast to use it as a setup to feint the car into the left hair pin coming up. No normal or sane person would do that unless they knew the course as well as takumi.
later on though he got a lot less flashy. Starting from his race with Shingo and the gum tape death match.
Only in early initial d. After the battle with Shingo, Takumi realized he could go faster with minimal counter steer.
Very nice video!
If I remember correctly there was actually a scene in the anime that pointed out that Takumi was sliding on all four wheels just as you would in slip-angle driving!
Back in the 1980s, drifting was used for going faster, you grip the car into the corner and only drift half of the corner, gassing it half-way to bring the car sideways. It's much faster and looks more stylish.
Also, don't connect the corners, that wasn't done back then either. Drift the corner, grip. Drift next corner, grip.
by drifting you kill two birds with one stone
shift the weight to the front tyres and also spin the car easier
ty for making me realize that and nice Botan pic
@@xXEP1C1337Xx Of course! if you'd like to see that in action; here is a video: th-cam.com/video/GT7tBW4di7M/w-d-xo.html&. This was the late 80s-early 90s, this is just drift practicing so nothing competitive, but you can see the drivers gripping into the corner and using the throttle to break traction halfway through the corner. It's a really nice way to drift, preservers tire life, and is a lot quicker than trying to link corners and initiate a drift too early into a corner.
that's powersliding
This video took away all my doubts, proving to me that a "Total Grip" is faster than a grip-drift, and also showed me how the slip angle can be useful.
To tell the truth, I've been using the slip angle for a while, on gran turismo 4, I just didn't know it was a technique, and, well, I have a lot to improve.
Perfect video
I really need to learn how to drift! Great video 👍
Thank you! There's a tutorial on my channel that a lot of people have found helpful, check it out.
I'm really new to assetto and been trying to get good at driving using the "slip angle" but just keep spinning lol
I'm currently working on a dedicated slip angle video, so it should be able to help!
First be good at grip, and practice the drift.
Then boom one day you could do slip angle.
@@samgong1125 yeah getting pretty good at grip now, I normally grip around the mid-high speed corners and slide round low speed corners and hairpins
You gotta think like a rally driver. Corners 1 and 2 you can easily flat out on a good racing line or simply lift the throttle. Slip driving starts being useful after this point and hairpins you're better off drifting, especially if you're driving a turbocharged car (some rally drivers did this to keep the turbo spooled and avoid the lag)
My tips. Start slow and build speed. Better to have no slip and stay on lines than to fly off. For perfect slip angle, in my experience, the most important thing is corner entry and the balance of the car upon entry. Turn in while lifting off brake so that weight is still forward and rear begins to slip, some slight countersteer may be necessary. You should pretty much coast into the corner with some rear wheel slippage, small amounts of brake can be used to help with rotation but can also induce understeer so be careful. The more sideways the car while braking, the more it will rotate. Then on exit, release brake and use the power to keep the weight to the rear of the car so that it can slip then carry that weight all the way to the outside upon exit. With low power cars like this typically the earlier you can get on the throttle the quicker you will be. Ideally, on a perfect entry, you don't even need to countersteer as the slide mid turn is applied across all 4 wheels, countersteer does not utilize all the front grip, hopefully that makes sense.
Again the most important thing in my experience is nailing the entry and having the correct speed through the turn. Create brake markers in your head and adjust accordingly.
Sorry for the document just thought this might help someone and I love sim racing.
Bro summoned all initial D fans by saying initial D cartoon
Takumi didn't drive fast so the tofu didn't get cold, he just wanted the delivery to end quickly so that he could just go home and chill
i havent really tried sim racing to a very large extent but this video has inspired me to
Awesome video! I love the science behind the different driving styles. Definitely need to get better in balancing the slip angle.
I'm in the process of writing a script solely about slip angle so maybe that video will be able to help!
@@TSRB hope to see that soon!
Nice video man, keep it up!
Thank you!
Keiichi Tsuchiya uses Slip Angles on tsukuba and gunsai touge. Great video boss!
It would be lovely if you could go a little more in-depth on the slip angle stuff and make a video about it,.I enjoy drifting and grip driving but I'm really willing to taking it to another level when I get my wheel. I would really like to learn how to do the technique. Anyways great video, keep it up!
Working on a slip angle video right now!
Tsuchiya Keiichi calls it fast drift, and I want to master it! :D
Loved the video man! Just subscribed, keep it up!
Thank you!
This is a great analysis of Touge drifting and Initial D driving styles. One thing I would like to make note of though (I am so stinking late so I guess it doesn't really matter) is that while I 100% agree that he uses slip angle to clear corners (and a lot of the drifting is pretty heavily exaggerated in the show... I think the angles were pumped way up for the wow factor in the early shows), they also make mention that he uses drifting to scrub off speed.
So on a lot of the corners in the show where you get a good shot at what he is doing, he pretty much does all his braking in the straights pretty much just to weight transfer the car and get the rear to step out. No matter how fast he's going, he never does more than a full second of braking just to set the car up for a corner. Also, the faster he is going, the earlier you can see him setting up his slides.
I think he does this mostly as a way of scrubbing off his speed before a corner while simultaneously setting up his angle for actually attacking the corner. So basically on lesser, fast corners, its just full slip angle through the whole corner, but on much tighter corners, it seems to be drift in for setup and speed scrubbing, and then slip angle out for maximum speed.
This is just what I noticed as he really only seems to come into the understanding of slip angle driving (well... more towards that than drifting) in the show with the gum tape death match as he had to minimize his counter steer just to survive that race. In doing so he actually makes a mental note that with the smaller counter steer usage he is actually clearing the corners faster.
These are just things I noticed though... none of this may be accurate or based in any sort of fact. Nice driving either way and great explanation... you got a sub from me!
Tsuchiya was a technical consultant on Initial D and he was the one who really popularized this technique, it's still drifting but it's not the same as what drifting is today. In a recent video on the Carprime English Channel Tsuchiya tried a modern drift car and they compared old school drifiting to speed skating and the new style to figure skating.
Technically, the tofu is already cold, he drives fast because he makes deliveries early in the morning and wants a bit more sleep before school.
Nice to hear old DnB in the background, just wondering what's the song at 0:00-1:50?
1:51 LOL
"Now before you click off the video"
Hah this is the best part there aint no way imma click off
I think, they are talking in Initial D about exact this technique. There is moment where, I think it is his father, talks about drifting is only fast, when you drift over all four tires and not only the back wheels, while the front wheels are controlling the angle.
So I would say you nailed it. The inside angle while "slipping" will keep you on track while you are faster than with the grip style. I am trying this with my Dr!ft model cars by Sturmkind.
This is the video ive been searching for years, i thought i was crazy when i thought its faster to slide the car on the crazy (im a noob driver i cant do stuff like that)
you deserve a sub for interesting video like this
also i do have some question
Late brake or get on power early??
Thanks man! Late braking or early throttle depends entirely on a corner. In my "How to touge" video I talk a little about this topic so maybe that could help :)
@@TSRB oh thanks for that
When driving for the fastest time, it is good to let the tires spin a little when you are taking corners. A tires maximum grip is when it is slightly spinning on the very edge of starting to do a burnout and not spinning at all. Getting the tires to this edge is very hard and is often changing while your driving but the benefit from the extra grip can be felt by the speed carried and the shit in your pants from how scary it is. Especially when it's your first time experiencing it.
I learned this in a gokart that went like 50mph, took one of the back corners of the track flat foot. Stopped 3centimeters away from a brick wall going about 39mph. Looking back on it, if i hit the wall, i would've 100%flipped and get stuck under a 50 pound kart while strapped in :)
Honestly it does make sense considering you never see any tire smoke other than at the start of a race or when someone is losing it and basically drifting
Recommend looking up Baba's downhill Tsubaki Line run, man is literally pushing the 86 tuned to its limits drifting and gets a 4:40
I think this is a different touge but the run is nice either way. He utilises slip angle very well!
Oh so that's what it means. In the anime Takumi was racing against an old guy in a purple Honda S2000, known as God Hand or something. And it was mention in the anime that he's using a technique not drift & not grip either but something in between. Obviously I had no idea what they're talking about 😅 but after hearing your explanation, I kinda get what it means....
Exactly. BTW Its Dr. Joshima Toshiya you were mentioning
wow never expected to hear Artemis Elysian Fields on an asseto video
Im not a sim racer and i don't have a wheel, my pc sucks so i play on my xbox 360 and i also use slip angle
Its so much fun.
Nice intelligent drum and bass track! ☺️
Slip angle is god hand technic if I'm not wrong. Takumi's drift looks more like a 4 wheel drift, he stopped overcountersteering when he faced Shingo on the tape battle. He realized that the less he countersteer the more he's faster
The best experiment I've seen. A well apply combination of drift and grip could make a good lap. Let's role it!!!
Takumi learned to drift in the way of slip angle as he grew by the time he battled with Ryosuke Takahashi. The master of slip angle drifting in Initial D is Toshiya Joshima who was called "the god of one hand steering" driving S2000. (Comment from Japan)
ive been using slip angle without even knowing it was actually a technique😳
The most satisfying move to pull off is a 4 wheel drift at full throttle (like the one Ryosuke describes in stage 1)
I would argue that Keiichi Tsuchiya uses the slip angle technique, and that’s what made him famous as a circuit racer
In my opinion, it’s faster to drift certain corners, and grip others. Grip on the winding corners, and drift the sharp corners.
I dont know if my years of racing fwd cars had a doing in it but slip angle came to me almost naturally, the feeling of taking a fast corner and your rear wheel grip becoming loose is almost the same, idk but it felt pretty natural ( im not talking about simracing, im talking about actual racing)
another advantage to drifting is. if you have a turbocharged car. keeping the rev up while drifting means you wont have to wait for the turbo to go back up when accel
Slip angle might be much faster when it comes to touge and tracks. This technique is used by takumi fujiwara in initial d which you both use grip and drift. This is when how much the wheel has twisted. By straightening the corners, the much faster your time will be.
You need to find and watch Best Motoring’s Drift Bible. It’s the OG Drift King Tsuchiya Keiichi explaining and demonstrating his 5 different drifting techniques, one of which is fast drifting. And oh yeah… he was the Technical Director for Initial D… so, he was the brains behind how Takumi Fujiwara drove.
Something that I find a lot more mysterious is the speed as it's portrayed in the show. It always portrays drift as wild and demonically fast yet it looks really slow in real life when compared. Is this because the show is unrealistic or because they drive better than people in real life or does the way way it's stylised make it appear as though it's faster than it really is?
Definitely sped up for a dramatic effect. There actually is a video game based on Initial D where the cars drift similarly to the show. The end result looks basically like Mario Kart drifting where the car gets a demonic speed boost from 4-wheel drifting, whereas in real life the drag would slow down the momentum you're carrying.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this is the commonly mentioned 4-wheel drift in the anime. Basically a drift with barely any countersteer.
you're right. 4 wheel drive/ no countersteer drift. He's utilizing slip angle when they're talking about it. He first learned how to do it during his gum tape death match, when he wasn't able to steer as much so was forced to balance between grip and drift (slip angle)
Noticed I do that when racing. But its much easier to do with a wheel setup than with a controller. This would explain why my times on the wheel are much faster.
This whole video is great but also so weird for me to watch because it makes me realize all the stuff I do subconsciously on grand turismo
This is basically how they raced F1 cars in the 50's and 60's
In MTA we used to call Slip Angle as "Drip" (Grip + Drift), oh we were young...
@@danielsantslv4565 land of the rising sun LOTRS
The important part are the tires. Different tires have different optimal slip angles. E.g a modern GT3 has an ideal slip angle of around 3°. The "slip driving" usually appears when you have perfected trail braking on a track. What I've seen in the video you probably still have a bit too much angle. You can actually feel front tire slip angle. The higher the slip angle the stringer the ffb gets until you go over the limit. Then the ffb becomes lighter (if the rear has enough grip).
if you got out of the drift normally it would be much faster
you asked to drift until the end of the turn, and still ripped. It is necessary to drift 75% of turn and then to straighten a car little by little
I thought Takumi wanted to finish his deliveries as fast as possible so he can go back to bed.
I feel like you using Toshiya Joshima, the god hand's technique could be a great learning technique for getting a good slip angle and understanding the 4 wheel drift. Although I do see myself spinning out a lot in the beginning, that's the upside of sim racing - you can crash as many times as you need.
Driving at the peak capability of the tire will induce slip angle. Slip angle is not a different style of driving between grip and drift - it’s the peak of grip driving. Essentially, there’s a point in the grip curve where slip angle starts to occur and grip continues to grow. Depending on the kind of tire, the area of peak grip and slip angle could be flat or peaky. Typically more aggressive compounds will have a sharp peak, while less aggressive tires will have more of a plateau - meaning you can slip a bit more while attaining similar levels of grip. A peak-y tire will go from maximum grip to snap over/under-steer depending on which tires are exceeding peak grip.
It's always brought up that it's more of a four wheel drive drift. Using all four wheels gets youmore speed out of the exit, especially compared to your typical drift. One where you're controlling the angle of the car through the front two tires, at least that's my analysis of it. Also, the cup challenge could work with the slip angle compared to a full on drift angle.
I find the main benefit of drifting on tight tracks like these is that it denies your opponents a chance to pass.
Hey man, amazing content and genuinely helpful. The music fits so well with your video style, mind telling me the song name or where it's from?
i'm interested too
Rotating the car using the throttle and the gears is also Verstappen's driving style, but in a much more grippy way obviously. He uses controlled oversteer to make the corner faster than how the car should.
I'm so noob in simracing and the more I learn, the more I discover that perfect academic driving isn't the fastest. But this isn't bad, it makes racing more interesting in my opinion.
there is a part is the anime at least..that Bunta(takumi's dad) changes the set up and takumi learns that with less counter steering and using the throttle to turn the car he is faster.and prior to that he seemed to more use a combination of drift and grip depending on the corner..at least thats how i always seen it
iirc takumi said himself that the way he drives doesn't involve countersteering when watching tv with iketani and itsuki
Its not only slip angle, its also because a tyre has the most lateral grip if it slides just a tiny little bit, lets say 101% of the theoretical force it can transfer. The reason is the rubber gets pushed harder into micro structures of the road as if the tyre would be at 100%. Just a little bit more, lets say 102% and you loose all that grip and the tyre goes into sliding friction.
He needs to get it there without damaging it but he just wants to get home as fast as possible which is why he goes fast on the downhill.
seeing the end of the video i have now realised that i have been using the slip driving in forza for 2 years no wonder my brother thinks i am so fast
Dude i had a come to Jesus moment when he explained the slip angle method, i have also in Forza or GT used it and just thought i was "turning with style". lol Now to go practice my "driping" style.
Wait, did the sub f up somewhere? The version i know is that he always send the tofu in the early morning but he wants to sleep more so he keeps driving faster and faster instead of the tofu got cold
It's been a good number of years since I've watched it so maybe. But I think Bunta wanted him to drive faster so it didn't go cold.
exactly my thoughts. he just wanted to get home quickly.
@@TSRB well, tofu is stored cold so it would've been in cold water haha. Bunta forced takumi to first drive smoother using the water cup, since the tofu would break if it was treated roughly. Then Takumi started to drive faster cause he wanted to get home sooner. He didn't even like driving, which was his motivation to get faster. The faster he could get home the quicker he could be done driving for his dad.
I found out I was doing it naturally because it felt faster, when I watched a video about improving my technique only to find I was already doing it.
When it comes down to driving style this is where it becomes controversial as it's meant to be more of subjective and personal than an objective, "is it faster to do this or that?" So grip or drift doesn't matter, just the driver
Personally I don't think this is true. If you take a look at any real life motorsport, or even any top tier sim races they're all using the same cornering techniques. I mentioned slip angle at the end of the video, and that it is the fastest. All F1 drivers use slip angle to corner, from the front of the grid to the rear. And all the top sim racers use slip angle to corner. If you take a look a replay of one of your best lap times I guarantee you were using slip angle.
@@TSRB then again that's just an oddly specific way of saying grip driving, and it's not entirely purely drift driving either like the type that touge 86T drivers do with drift style of low slips. Slip Angles is just a term used to describe the amount of slip a tire has anyways, not an actual form of driving style, though I'm not saying grip doesn't equate to not having slip angles as it's entirely impossible to corner without those, I'm just saying that it's grip and doesn't have to be unnecessarily complicated with more labels like slip angles or 0 countersteer four wheel drifting when they're just driving normally at the car's peak
The front tyres' angle can be easily altered with the use of steering wheel, so it's much easier to control the front tyres' slip angle. The rear ones usually are pointed towards the front, so the only way to have a better slip angle is to swing/slide the rear slightly. This is, in a sense, different from grip driving, where the car rear tyres stay at the absolute minimum slip angle.
I do agree that having so many labels is very cumbersome, as it's just a simplified version of saying "adequate car rotation"
Let's just wrap it as you're half sliding if you're speeding
he is a legend, he drives with pajamas on
Got to stay comfy
Ryosuke says that grip is faster and that's kind of the point of Final Stage. Ryosuke also says that Takumi drifts because its easier to dodge incoming traffic. How that works, I have no clue. Its also funny that Takumi doesn't actually drift all the time in 4th and 5th stage, only on specific corners. Then, the hammer in the point that Shinji is faster with grip than drift, he drifts every corner in final stage.
the background music!
i want it! it sound soo good!
One track I do recognise is called Shogun - Pegasus. I am unaware of the other track names, but it is likely the same artist. Hope this helps.
@@RXLover-cw2qu I'll go check it out.
slip angle is so minuscule to be optimal that it is barely noticeable.
so no drifting is not faster
Huh turns out I've been slip driving the whole time kinda cool
Ask to keichi tsuchiya 😎
The takumi of the real Life
What are the setup changes?
-pretty please
5:00 I think you had too much speed halfway through the hairpin, which made you oversteer and slightly miss the apex, then had to countersteer a bit which gave the grip car the lead. In a perfect driving scenario,, the drift car would get the lead and exit the corner with as much speed as the grip car.
Also what you refer to as slip angle I think is just perfect drifting, meaning never having to countersteer after a corner. It's just much harder compared to just gripping the whole way. Takumi had to learn that on the duct tape deathmatch
The real issue here is just the naming. This was "drifting" back in the early 90's and prior decades when it was done for speed, especially on Touge's. Once it gained popularity and people started doing it for 'show' rather than speed, drifting became this. That also happened in the 90's though, and there is even commentary in Initial D about this with Nakazato's character (R32) commenting on how drifting is slower because of the "slow crab walk" drifting has devolved into.
Isn't this what's called 4 wheel drifting in Initial D? "Drifting" with minimal to no countersteer.
I believe so
yes
Ah not really, sure minimal countersteer means ur angle isnt excessive and that means you're faster than a high angled drift, but that isnt what 4 wheel drift is about, 4 wheel drift is a normal drift but your front steering wheels are also understeering (contrary to normal drifts where your front is gripping with the rear sliding), meaning all four wheels are slipping
What you called "slip" was actually just "grip" but with more grip. There's more grip because you have enabled sufficient yaw angle of the car such that both the front and rear tyres are both operating at their optimal slip angles. When the rear is closer to their optimal, the front steering wheel need not be turned as much for the fronts to also be at their optimal slip angles. Therefore, the sum total of cornering forces from all four tyres are the highest under this condition. I realise I'm commenting on a 3 year old video and that you've probably come to realise this already though.
U can learn a lot watching rallycross as the run on dirt and tarmac
Masterful driving.
when tyres have %12 slipping they have max grip, but this is causing overheating + wearing tyres and unusable in track racing and making a stable drift is harder than turning normal
Actually the real touge runs here on this track, drivers stay in one lane, so if you want to be realistic about how the real life runners do it, stick to one lane. It’s amazing to actually see
Alternative title : GodHand go brrrrrrrrrrrr
Wow!! I tried to prove the same thing as you!
olha só quem tá aquikkkk
depends on car adjust but still if grip is bad enough the winner who is keeping car on the verge to counter steer(actual sleep angle) and best race line also needed
Go kart racers watching this video and realizing they're basically Takumi 😲
The answer is given by rallying, as they are driving similar courses.
What is their use?
In some corners, yes is faster to drift. In SOME corners, but most need grip to go faster
Tsuchiya using mostly grip in Gunsai in BM.
God Hand teaching Takumi at Tsukuba
So, basically takumi uses a combination of drifting and gripping, which I believe that's called 'powersliding'.
nope in powersliding you use your AWD to push the car forward instead of gripping while in slip angle you trail brake to keep momentum