Aaaand, (sorry but) that's not right. Reeds match to your mouthpiece, not the strength of your muscles. If you have a more open mouthpiece, generally you use softer reeds. If you have a more close facing, your reeds will be harder strength. Just to keep things straight here :)
👍 Thanks. I know better now. before, I was taught it was based on other factors since we all used the exact same type mouthpiece. And some people moved while others didn't.
I would have loved to have plastic reeds when I was in Marching Band. They weren't around in the 80s. I always had some really bad chipped reeds for marching season. *Bass Clarinet.
you want to be careful. the legere's can play louder, but the tone is more spread, so it won't travel as far. if you want a setup that can project, use a very open mouthpiece (like Vandoren B45), then use a reed that's a little too hard for you, so that it sounds fuzzy when you play. But the fuzzy sound won't be heard 20 feet away, and you'll get a bright, clean sound.
To prove the point clarinets get features... I got a pretty cool clarinet feature when I was in high school. If you want you should check it out, because I'm screaming out an ultra sonic B :^) It's in the second movement of the video below. Cane Reed. It is a 3.5+ Rue Lepic. th-cam.com/video/mlvmUxLEdIg/w-d-xo.html
I've been using Legere reeds for about ten years. I have a couple of them that I'm still using. If you break one in that is a little stiff at first, they can last for a very long time. I've noticed that the newer signature series is thinner and doesn't seem to last as long, but I like the response better than the classic. Another thing that I've found that is helpful, is to lick the back of the reed so that it is wet when you put it on the mouthpiece. That moisture gives me a nice seal on the table of the mouthpiece. Moving the reed up or down just the tiniest bit can also make a big difference in response. Thanks for another excellent and informative video.
When I could discern a difference, I much preferred the sound of the plastic reeds. With softer playing, they had more clarity and purity of tone, and with louder playing, they got rowdy without the overly abrasive harshness (like fingernails on a chalkboard) that the cane reeds had.
BlameItOnGreg the synthetic reeds typically vibrate more uniformly and produce more of the lower partials (overtones) People often describe the resulting sound as "darker" or more "mellow"
I always thought that the cane reeds were much better than the plastic reeds, but after seeing this video, the results were much closer than I thought. I have a Bari Saxophone Legere and a Vandoren 3 1/2 reed for my contra-alto clarinet, so I will only know for sure once I try both of them.
Warning, long winded comment! I think the main thing holding people back from Légère is that there is no good way to try a selection. People might agree to buy one Reed, but if it doesn't work with what they have currently they stop trying. Legere is different from cane, it would make sense to try different versions and different mouthpieces until you find something that works and give it a run. I used to hate Légère in high school and thought they were completely unplayable. But when I got to college I was shocked to see my professor switch to one angrily during a particularly bad weather/reed day. He doesn't play on them normally, but if his cane won't cooperate he moves to something that will. (Until he can adjust or break in something new) After trying out what his combination was I decided to switch and give Légère a chance. I found that I was able to get around 85-90% of the same results from Légère, cold, no break in, no adjustment period. As a music Ed major I don't have time to be babying cane reeds and keeping up constant new rotations. Legere let's me perform and practice with out any of the complaints associated with reeds. Which is a phenomenal achievement (seriously pay attention to how much people complain about reeds). For the other instruments I've still to find a good combination. On bass they "work" but like you Michael I'm not sold on them. I probably just need to try more mouthpieces. For eb I sound terrible so anything Légère will follow lol. However on contra they are a REQUIREMENT. I've seen die hard vandoren/cane players switch to Légère when assigned contra. Cane reeds will close up and warp every time on a reed of that size. If you're still reading this comment, thanks! I'll get off my soapbox now and feel free to ask any questions!
You mentioned that there is no good way to try a selection. I just wanted to say you can return Legeres that you buy from Amazon. I've done it countless times, and now I have awesome Legeres to use. You'd be surprised at how much the reeds can vary, even though they are synthetic. If you live near LA, I think RDG woodwinds allows you to try a few Legeres and pick the ones you want -- I think.
Hazel D all reeds have the potential to chip, but legere are much stronger than cane reeds. Of all the plastic reeds I've used I think I've only chipped one (and that one was pretty old). As long as you're not too rough with it it won't chip.
have to say that, for the Bb, the plastic sounded good enough for most of what I'm likely to do with my playing. It was 95% as good as the cane but without any of the potential downsides. Be interesting to compare a plastic to some cane that's straight out the box, no selecting good cane.
Which Legere did you guys use? The European cut is way more flexible than the signature and I'd you haven't tried that it's way better. (they don't make it for the bass but soon they will) There is an adjustment period with legere. You have to play them with less vertical pressures and that does take months to adjust. Also moving the reed slightly up and down makes huge differences. Lastly, you have to have the right mouthpiece to use them. You have to take a reed to the store and try mouthpieces out that best suit the reed. It took me awhile to find the right combo but it was worth the effort. Now I just practicing instead of fixing reeds for the first hour or so. Traveling and weather changes are no longer a worry for me.
I was using European cut. I think my Kaspar mouthpiece is probably not the most compatible with the plastic. Trying reeds AND mouthpieces would have made a really long video! I'm going to keep messing with them because I think they could be great for teaching at school.
I have to second the idea of having a suitable mouthpiece for legere reeds. The Austrian and German mouthpiece makers I play have a specific facing of their mouthpieces especially for legere reeds. My personal issues with legere reeds have mostly been finding a match which works intonation wise. I really enjoyed the setup of this test!
How many different cuts does Legere make now? When I first tried them there was just one, but a few years ago I tried them again and there was regular cut and Quebec cut. One thing that's worth noting is that I have always needed to go down by 1/4 of a strength or even 1/2 a strength. So while I play 3.5 reeds on both clarinet and alto saxophone, when I play a Legere I need either as 3 or 3.25.
Plastic reeds need saliva to make better contact with the mouth piece in order to cause vibration, which is what makes the sound on the clarinet or any woodwind for that matter.
You two should recut this vid after getting used to the Legeres. Once you get your embouchure used to the smaller adjustments that plastic/nylon requires, you might be quite surprised at how much more consistent the Legeres are from reed to reed. Just sitting down with any new reed cut - even bamboo, takes some getting used to. Also, try going down 1/2 stiffness. Disclamer - I also play Van Doren on my Yamaha (4) and Buffet Crampon (3.5).
Reeds are a very personal thing, what they think of those reeds might be completely different to others. Personally I run legere signature 3.5 on clarinet and 3.25 on bass clarinet. However I do hop between legere and vandoren v12 3.5 for both bass clarinet and clarinet. In the end i do prefer the legere reeds just because they work for me. And here in Canada where it's a heat storm one day and a snow storm the next (and my inability to work on reeds) my cane reeds don't always make the sound I want where the legere reeds will work in any condition.
Absolutely! Like I've said to a few other commenters, this is all a very personal thing. I'm not telling anyone to change what they use, nor am I saying "I'm right." - Just giving my 2¢ as usual.
I am a returning brass player, four years now. Other than tooting on a woodwind in the seventies I know nothing about your instrument. I subscribed to your channel because I admire your skill. My day job is engineering. That said I was surprised when I picked out the wood reeds more often than not because of the pleasing sound. Kudos on your contributions to your channel.
I'm in the process of switching to Legere European Signature reeds on the Bb permanently. I've been very patient with the Legeres, going from strength 3.25 to 4.25 in quarter strength increments, and taking 1-2 weeks to try them before returning. In my experience, these reeds also have a break-in period: it take at least a week for the reeds to play how it will for the rest of it's "reed-life."Start with a reed that is slightly harder, and after the break-in, it'll soften up a bit and be perfect for you. The best strength Legere to get is the hardest strength you can play on without getting a fuzzy sound in any dynamic and range on the clarinet
Ray Zhang When I first switched to plastic, I felt the exact same way (I was on a 4.25 looking to switch to 4.5). But I noticed, with the help of my teacher, that I was just working to hard to get a sound. I was looking for the same type of resistance to blow against that cane reeds have in abundance, but instead I was getting overly resistant reeds that were mismatched to my mouthpiece. I played on and then switched to 3.75 and now I'm playing on 3.5-3.25. Once I stopped biting the reed the sound was so full and easy to produce, it wad kinda scary. Anyway, that's just my 2¢.
you can return the Legeres that you buy from Amazon. I've done it countless times. Yes you won't get 2-day shipping, but I could care less since money is more important to me.
The thing with the Legeres is they just always work. I have friends who play them because it gives them confidence they can’t always be sure of with cane, and confidence in the tools is obviously a big deal (I actually wonder if this is why professionals seem to be switching - the very high consistency and reliability is just more valuable than a slight tone quality loss?). I have two Legeres in my case for when the environment is weird (usually outside) and nothing else is working, or when my best cane reeds are already waterlogged from playing all day, or whatever. I was nonetheless surprised by the fact that I could ID the cane almost all the time (I got all the Bb tests, almost all the bass) just because the sound slightly lacked the richness and roundness of cane, at least as recorded and on my headphones. They’re getting really close, but for me they aren’t quite there yet and I’ll live with my V21s and associated hassles and wait for the next version of the synthetics.
Exactly! I play alto sax but I'm an oboe player first. I chipped the corner of my alto reed and it played just fine, but I did the same to my oboe reed a month ago and it didn't play! Single reed peeps will never understand.
I basically play every single woodwind instrument and the instruments that have the least struggles is the flutes. Also I play alto for marching band, my reed gets banged up all the time and it still plays fine. But my oboe reed on the other hand :/. My oboe fell on the floor and chipped the corner of it, then right after that, someone stepped on the reed by accident. I was dead on the inside.
I'm a bass trombonist, and I could tell MUCH better than random guessing on the Soprano Clarinet side. For the bass clarinet, it was only really obvious for me on the Rite of Spring solo, but for that one in particular, it was clear as day which was which. I think on bass clarinet, you could probably get away with the plastic reeds most of the time, perhaps only switching to cane for particular repertoire. For soprano- no way, play wood or the audience is going to know.
I am a "doubler", and often play in musical pit orchestras (community). For my flat reeds, I nearly always use Legere reeds because they will play right away even when cold and dry. I have been really happy with them. They are also good for teaching because you can just pick up the instrument and play. My double reeds are hand made though.
Honestly I now use a legere EUROPEAN CUT (the other ones are trash) strength 4.5 permanently and I'm never going back to wood they're consistent and sound great. TIP: If you want to make them last longer, rinse off the back of the reed after every time you play on it to prevent spit from drying in the cracks, I've been doing this and I've been playing on the same plastic reed for five months and it still sounds great
I´m sorry guys , but on the playbacks, the plastic reeds sounded more even and bigger and warmer. It is all very subjective, and I think you should work a little more with the plastic and keep in mind my earlier suggestions. You still have to work at it to to get what you want.
Michael is a Vandoren artist so it's likely he'll stay Vandoren. if he spent more time trying Legeres (and worst case situation switching a mouthpiece), he could probably end up with a Legere setup he likes. but it's unlikely he'll do that
must be subjective. I thought the plastic reeds were missing a comparative ton of resonance, sounding thin and flat especially on the slower etude. I imagine the quality of one's playback system might have an effect too.
No way. The cane reeds had such a depth that I could tell was missing from the plastic reeds instantly. The plastic reeds do sound smoother but it makes it sound artificial. Like digital vs traditional art. One just has the extra touch to it that gives it a special richness.
I have the same issue with the oboe reeds. They have no lower partials and so they sound thin and waxy. Much better than the opd fiber cane plastic reeds, but still not something i can play on in concert
I've done numerous tests with mouthpieces and instruments over the years, blind tests, students and teachers both as players and listeners. Many times the listeners could not tell a difference, or guessed wrong. When they could tell a difference, they often could not say that one was "better" than the other, just different, at least with the products we were testing.
I use Legere exclusively , but on saxes. One has to warm them up for 2-3 minutes. One should also find mouthpieces that play well with Legere. On sax there are 3 models of Legere reeds. I have this problem solved and go to my gigs totally confident in my reed situation. WHAT A RELIEF!!!! If I play long gigs, i will rotate reeds. I use a system to see how many gigs i have played on each reed. For me , the Legere on tenor can split on the tip if i´m really working extreme altissimo- into the 5th octave. I will practice that kind of thing on reeds that are past their prime. Throw out all preconceptions and really explore the possibilities!
I still prefer cane reeds. I use the Ridenour method to prepare them and have found that each reed has it's own pros and cons but i can tweak them for maximum performance. They also have a more flexible dynamic range which adds more emotion. Thanks for the demo. Rik spector
Cool video guys! I switched to Legere several years ago. I love their consistency and I can spend more of my time practicing rather than fussing with reeds!
I'd be curious to see you try some of the different synthetic reeds with different mouthpieces. Just a comparison between synthetic. I definitely don't like all of them. Some are a bit stuffy to me, but I found the legere American cut works really well with my jazz alto setup. Also you might need a lower strength to have a similar feel.
Hi Michael! Good job here! I'm a good, old friend of John Moses and was there when he started down the Legere path. It takes awhile to get used to them, but once he did, I could not tell that John was playing a synthetic reed. At first I could tell right away, then he got the articulation sorted out, and then he found the sound, more reed like. So, if this was pretty much the first time you guys were trying Legeres, then I think they held up very well against cane reeds, and with some continued playing, you could probably get the same results. Or close to it. As a lowly, untrained doubler on Broadway, they have saved my a** many times at WICKED, especially on bass clarinet. I also use them on clarinet and bari sax. It might be sacrilegious, but I use a Signature Tenor Sax Legere on bass, just seems to make more noise as is required on Broadway. Give them a try! Best, Harry
Legere Signature reeds are great - I was also pleasantly surprised when I tried them. They are still far from matching the responsiveness or sound quality of a good cane reed, but they're also 100% more reliable. I use mine every time I'm playing a show where I need to switch between instruments because they are instantly playable, no need to warm them up or break them in. And it's a great thing to have in the case for those days when all your other reeds decide to let you down :)
Agree totally - they are perfect for those pit orchestra situations when you need to pick up an instrument that you haven't played in 10, 20, 30 minutes, and know that it will respond. I also recommend them to my students who have a clarinet on their stand in jazz band and are going to need to play it 20 minutes into the concert.
I'm not sure how this is a valid comparison- any change to your setup will require some adjustment period. Moving from cane to Legere is a significant change requiring a distinct adjustment period. Additionally, assuming that you were playing the Legere Classic, they are much more comparable to your Vandoren Blue Box than the V12/V21. While they may not match the very best reeds, they will be better than at least 3 out of 5 of a typical box of brand name cane reeds. My story is the same as many- with a bit of adjustment, I find that I sound better on Legere reeds than on the average cane reed and that I no longer have to worry about the numerous failings of cane reeds. Perhaps, if you gave them an actual shot, your feelings would be different.
It seems I might have struck a nerve with this video. I know people are very passionate about what they use, and to have me poke at that…well, it causes some folks to feel like I'm negating their experience. Nothing could be farther from the truth-everyone's experience is just as valid as everyone else's (mine included). I recognize that I could give Legere a longer try, and perhaps I will. But as long as I'm happy with what I've got, why switch? Same for you, of course-as long as you're happy, then you know what? We're both happy.
That is a perfectly fair statement and you're obviously right- if your setup works for you, then why switch? I think the reaction, knee-jerk or not, is that you are condeming those of us who for whom synthetic reeds, like the Legere or Forestone, work for without giving it a fair trial. Though we are finally starting to see a handful of prominent classical clarinetists and saxophonists switch to these reeds, we still get more than our share of criticism from the established classical community, and that may make many of us somewhat overly sensitive of the topic. I hope you know that I mean absolutely no disrespect.
Agreed that the set up is perhaps a bigger factor. Which means the plastic compares well and can hold it's own. It may be that about different strength plastic will give the loud notes what he's looking for. Also since the good cane vs bad cane was such a big discussion point - it gives the plastic the lead. And the longevity may really split the difference and give plastic the edge (puns intended) Great video overall...well done!
I like Legeres, except . . . on bass clarinet, where I just don't like the sound. For soprano clarinet, the European cut is much better and to me seems like it would usally be about the 2nd-3rd best reed in a box of cane, certainly good enough for rehearsals and, often, concerts. On thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Legeres are an absolute Godsend for pit work. I like the sound of Legeres on sax, but more importantly, you often need to pick up a horn that has been sitting for 20++ minutes and come in on an exposed part - with a Legere, you know it's going to work. This past summer, I had 6 horns in a pit and used Legeres on 5 of them (including bass clarinet, really no alternative).
As a self-taught beginner, I’m finding the Legere “European cut” 3.0 strength on a Yamaha 4C works well enough for me. The thing I hear about plastic reeds is that they’re supposed to be good for slap tonguing.
The plastic reeds have a smooth, almost blank feel to them. It's like, where is the wood in the woodwind? I much prefer the more organic, resonant tone of the cane reeds. Many years ago, I got to be the guinea pig trying out a plastic reed on the bassoon. it definitely felt different in the mouth, and was not giving the range of tone I was accustomed to. I stuck with the cane, even though the plastic was cheaper. Sometimes cheaper is not worth it.
I play clarinet and use 3 1/2 reeds as well and I have both a plastic red and wooden reeds, but I have to say that wooden reeds, in my opinion, give off a better sound and feel better as far as vibration. When I play my plastic reed, I feel like I have to push a lot more air out. Awesome experiment!!! I was intrigued!!!!!!!
Légère user here. I use European Cut 3 with a Vandoren 5JB for my Bb clarinet (used to play the Signature cut before that), and a saxophone Signature 2,5 with a Brilhart "made for Buescher" on my Buescher Alto clarinet (yes, saxophone reed... no alto Signature no more in the catalog... but works very well). What I like in those reeds : free blowing, help me to feel comfortable and express myself, they are sturdy, long last, I like the feeling on the tongue more than a cane reed. It's a part of me and my sound when I play clarinet. I understand it's a choice, but that's how I feel.
Great video. I’m a legere signature series fan as I hate having those bad reed days. As always there will be a slight compromise if you choose either cane or plastic. Thanks for this video The legere reeds as they warm after let’s say 30 mins of playing get softer which for me makes it more dynamic. Xx
Even though they might not quite play as well, the strong point of plastic reeds is their consistency from day-to-day since they aren't influenced by weather, so you don't waste time and money and stress finding a good reed. Sometimes that is more important.
I tested the Fibercane Oboe Reed for 25 years. The manufacturer neglected the upkeep of the tooling which was extremely complicated and labor-intensive. Wholesaled to Selmer, in Elkhart Indiana and they distributed these reeds all over the United States. and parts of Europe.The schools don’t invest in oboe players anymore. I still make professional oboe reeds. They were actually very excellent reeds for beginning oboists, since they played consistently. I had my first one in 1966 or 1967 at 11 or 12 years old. Some plastic reeds have their merits.
The Legere European Cut Bass Clarinet reeds are steps ahead of both the signature and classic versions. Could you please repeat the comparison with wood and perhaps the American Cut Tenor Sax reeds.
I picked out the the Bb plastic legere, by slight flatness in the throat tones. I find I have pitch problems on all Legere reeds on Bb clarinet, Signatures, Euroes, and Soprano Sax. I would love to know why.
In my rather limited experience, I find a double lip embouchure problematic on Legere reeds in ways it never is with single lip. I'm primarily a single lip player, but I am comfortable with and use both.
It's not a matter of double lip: I mostly play double lip but occasionally single lip. no difference in pitch. but different reeds just tune differently, it's not a surprise. I find Steuers to be slightly sharper than the Vandorens in my opinion. probably due to the Steuers being slightly thicker than the Vandorens, and making me pinch more without realizing? For me, the Legere is actually more in tune than any other cane reed. Especially throat tones and chalumeau. Maybe you feel it's flat because it is much thinner than most cane reeds? Try curling your bottom lip more, or tighten it more. If that closes off the reed, get a Legere a quarter-strength higher, and that should solve the problem.
I gave those plastic reeds a good test over some time. The thing that I hated was the "buzz" sensation on the lips. The sound, nothing I could put my finger on, but preferred the cane.
I’m not a fan of the Legere reeds at all. I was running into the same issues you described with your bass clarinet- but I experienced those problems on both my soprano and bass clarinets. I’m a purist with my Vandoren reeds (I use V-12s). However, a friend of mine suggested I try Silverstein Works reeds. I like them (so far) in past two months I’ve used them. I noticed they have a synthetic reed called Alta Ambipoly, and they claim to be a synthetic reed that sounds like a cane reed. They only have this reed available for Bb soprano clarinet, but I actually like it! I have two of them right now and they have a surprisingly bright and resonant sound! I use them for gigs when I am playing more “pop-ish” stuff that requires me to play a little brighter. I’m still a purist when playing concert band or orchestra literature though, and I’ll keep playing my cane reeds there. Have you tried Silverstein Works yet? I’m curious to know your thoughts.
Just going through a carton of cane and inspecting them for suitability is reason enough to choose the more uniform synthetic. So a move towards uniformity at all times is a plus in my book. Tone? In solo work, perhaps cane. But synthetic is so... set and forget. I can't help but prefer synthetic reeds in the great majority of circumstances.
I made the full switch to Legere Euro cut Signatures on Bb, but that's because I just so happened to own a few mouthpieces that were quite compatible with them. I have yet to switch to the Legere Signatures on bass or on my saxes because quite frankly they don't sound that great on my mouthpieces and unlike with the soprano clarinet, I'm not as willing to go out and find the right mouthpiece for the Legere on my other instruments. I don't think Legere reeds are at the point where they could completely replace cane. If they just so happen to work on your setup or you're willing to go out of your way to spend $200-$400 searching for a new mouthpiece setup, make the switch! I'm super happy with mine and am at the point where I'm taking them to major performances and auditions. If they don't work for you, no problem! Use what sounds best and feels best to you.
Thank you for great vids. In regards to the synthetic reeds, it is important to note that though they aren't better than cane, they are great for doublers and those of us who live in dry climates. I'm in Santa Fe, NM.
My take: Legere reeds can and should be worked on as wooden reeds in terms of sanding and filing( of course not on the vamp, just the top). Huge improvement. Buy slightly hard, then customize. Legere reeds are good for doubling situations in that they always respond the way you can predict. They work on clarinet better than sax in my experience. They're good for just leaving on the horn and picking up for a quick practice interlude. They're great for students who don't know how to care for wood reeds. They can make you really appreciate a good wood reed, but you can get used to them and not miss wood.
Great test. I personally didn't hear much of a difference between cane and plastic. I have been using Legere for about three years and much prefer them to cane. No messing with cane to balance it etc. Put it on and play, no need to wet the reed. They last a long time. I agree, you need to match the reed with an appropriate mouthpiece. Thanks for the video.
As a clarinet and saxophone player, I still prefer playing my cane reeds - when they cooperate! As a band teacher, I love Legere reeds when the students find the right one. Think about it this way: As an individual player, what are the odds of finding the perfect cane reed in the 60 seconds you have to get ready for class? Now, what are the odds of every clarinet and saxophone player in your band finding the perfect reed in that same amount of time? Legere reeds may not be buttery and rich enough for your next solo recital, but I sure love not having to hunt through the band looking for the kid with the cane reed that's chipped, warped, fuzzy, worn-out, or not cooperating with the weather. In my opinion, Legere reeds sound more than good enough for section work at any level.
Thank goodness for the invention of plastic reeds cause I broke like 7 wooden reeds in one month during marching season (then I ended up splitting the plastic reed during rehearsal)
My teacher uses 2.5 legeres with the rovner dark ligature on a Premiere mouthpiece by HITE. He said his last read played for two years while doing 1.5 hour shows for a circus plus teaching and stuff. I happened to have the same set-up for tenor (then also bought it for alto) and it works great at my level as well. They are very consistent, and the benefit of not having to mess with reeds is a huge set of benefits. You have to clean off the reed of build-up more like a mouthpiece though, but that's low maintenance by comparison to cane.
I'm perfectly happy playing my clarinet with Vandoren 2.5 reeds as they make a very mellow sound. I don't think that I would want to change to plastic ones as they have a harsh sound that I don't like. Thank you very much for this very informative video you both. Very helpful and enjoyable to watch. I will be getting my clarinet out again this week. Can you do a video on preventing squeaks? I have a consistent problem, which I think is caused by my fingers not covering holes properly, but it might be something else. Also I often find that the note B often doesn't speak, it's very temperamental and annoying!! Thank you both very much and have a lovely day.
My friend uses the legere contrabass reed and he loves it, im more of a fibracell or bari guy myself. Love the way they sound with my high schools selmer bass clarinet
I had a similar reaction when trying one on bass clarinet, but after hearing how well Katherine sounded on Bb soprano I'm interested in trying one on that instrument.
Hey Michael, I experienced the same thing you demonstrated with Legere bass clarinet reeds, both the Signature and Classic. Try a tenor sax STUDIO CUT. Solved most of the issues, for me anyway. It's still not a cane reed, but the slight differences are not worth it to me to monkey around with cane reeds anymore. Thanks for the video!
Completely agree with your assessment. I'd use Legere reeds in a pinch, especially when playing pit orchestra. But there's no comparison to cane. I make my own soprano clarinet reeds from tube cane and thereby have a great deal of control over the source of cane, the selection of cane, etc. I've even published on techniques for determining the quality of the cane before you make the reed. Remember that "hardness" is determined by the cane quality, not by the profile within any particular brand of commercial reeds. While the latest Legere reeds are an improvement over their older designs (you can read the Legere patents online and Legere's justification for their newer designs), these reeds are still made from polypropylene with a specific alignment of the polypropylene molecules within the plastic. That's what's patentable. At any rate, nothing yet comes close to a good cane reed, despite all of the disadvantages of cane, such as day to day variability, limited lifespan, etc. Many tactics can be used to minimize these disadvantages, including rotation of your reeds, re-balancing of your reeds as they change, storing them at 72% relative humidity, etc. Legere reeds don't have good softs and louds, they can't take the air volume at loud volumes, they don't have the range of tone colors that good cane provides, and they sometimes can be just as difficult to manage as cane as they age, and they do age. With that said, you may be amazed that a clarinetist as skilled as Ricardo Morales uses Legere reeds often. In my opinion, however, his sound was much better when he was routinely using cane.
Where have you guys been living? Under a trumpet player's case? I was using nylon reeds in 1976. Solved the biggest predicament for a marching band clarinetist - good clarion registry response while maintaining great lows - no squeaks at high knee 8 to 5!
I played alto saxophone for 4 years and I've found that vandoren was the best for me. I liked it because it made my sax sound clearer than the reeds my band teacher provided.
The plastic is better out of the box, but with the variability of wooden reeds, you must take the time to prepare the reeds and care for them. To get a true test, take the time to hydrate the Reed for a few minutes, balance the Reed with sand paper or Reed knife, and close the wooden pores by rubbing the back and front of the Reed with a paper grocery bag. It is a lot of work, but you will get the best sound and also preserve the Reed for a longer period of time. The plastic Reed is perfect in regard to balance, unlike the out of the box wooden Reed. A lot of time and measuring went into the creation of the plastic Reed. To have a better test: take some time to prepare the wood. Thanks for doing the test and making the video. Like people have said, plastic is good for marching band or in a pinch, but I think a good balanced Reed will produce more overtones and therfore have a better tone.
I’d be curious to see what the overtones of the two types of reeds looked like, in one of those tests you ran with mouthpieces a few years back. I think the sound of cane is noticeably richer and I think I can tell, but I’d be curious if there really is something there or if I’m just fooling myself 😀
You're not fooling yourself; here is something there. But the question is whether or not its significant. Especially when you consider that each instrument varies based on the workmanship and quality and type of material. And finally, the player.
My band director in high school always warned about plastic reeds "messing up" your articulation. I used a plastic reed on the contra-alto all year my senior year and I don't think that was necessarily true, but this video definitely shows the minutiae between plastic and cane reeds, and where they may be better for different situations. I use a 5RV and 3.5 V21s in both concert and marching settings because I care about my tone. Some of my friends in my marching section use plastic reeds and they really don't make that much of a difference on the field, but after watching this video and knowing what I already know, I am still not going to recommend plastic reeds for concert settings unless there are extenuating circumstances, maybe for larger instruments and money is an issue.
i don't like plastic as much on clarinet cuz they're usually flat, then I re tune and it goes waaaay sharp. I'm good at tuning and can usually fix that quickly but it's a pain sometimes. they're also kind of blare-y, if that makes sense. HOWEVER i love them on bass; mainly cuz I switch between the two instruments and I don't want the reed to dry out. but I also love them on solos and whatnot because, personally, i can control them better. I'm not sure why because everyone else says theyre harder to control, but i guess i'm just different. I haven't used a wood reed on a bass in idk how long. I'm not totally against it, I'll use either reed, but if I have a legiere and a vandoren in front of me, I'll pick the legiere. Side note: I HATE fiberglass on both instruments. it sounds like something is dying.
The only issue I have with the Legere reeds is soft entrances (opening of Weber Concertino, etc.) I may have too stiff a reed, but I play D'Dario blue box 4's on an old Genussa Excelente mouthpiece. I would use Legere in a pinch though. Thanks for the great video. Keep it up. I think I might listen to you play Mozart for Marcellus tonight. Take care.
I use Legere reeds exclusively now. While its clear that a really good cane reed is better, not having to practice the ritual around maintaining current and grooming new reeds allows me to spend a little more time practicing. Plus, on concert day I never worry about chipping my favorite reed because the Legere is always ready to go. Having said all that, if there was a situation where I needed to produce my best sound with the clearest articulation I would use a cane reed and pray.
I have been messing with Legere products for a couple years. The assessment on this video is spot on. My instructor knows exactly when I try to slip into her studio and start playing on plastic. I have decided to stick with cane on the soprano unless I have catastrophic failure with all my reeds. I double with a contrabass on occasion and I have to switch back and forth in those situations and the plastic is the way to go on both. As far as the contra goes, I am plastic all the way. Very good sound and it lasts for a very long time with the big boy. I recently started playing the bass. Since it is not my primary instrument keeping reeds rotated and all the voodoo magic involved in keeping the reeds healthy, I may stick with the plastic on this one as well. The verdict is still out on the bass. These reeds have come a long way and the Euro cut on the soprano has been my best bet when I do play them on the soprano. In any case, this is a good reed to keep in your case, hate it or love it, when you pull it out you will have consistency no matter what your external variations may throw at you.
This has been a hot topic for awhile. I think cane reeds are a little more flexible and vibrate a little better. It's really obvious in the throat tones. I've also had issues with plastic reeds breaking on tenor sax. Never had the issue on clarinet but I think it has to do with the material flexing back and forth at fff dynamics.
I basically agree with both of you. I have a Bb clarinet Legere that I like well enough and use for ceremonial music (military) because it doesn't dry out - I'm never stuck suddenly playing a hymn and having a reed that doesn't vibrate because I've been listening to an admiral yap for an hour. Otherwise, I generally prefer my Bb cane reeds. But bass clarinet? Hell no to the plastic reeds. They're spready and huffy, they take a ton of air, and they sound like ass for the amount of work I need to do. I saw David Shifrin talk about using Legeres in a masterclass, and he said he had to completely change his mouthpiece and ligature to make them work, but now he prefers them. I'm still wrapping my head on how he picked a good Legere and then proceeded to find a setup that works with the reed...
I just bought a Leger reed (currently in the mail somewhere) and am hoping it may be helpful for those scorching day, outside, summer community band concerts where keeping a reed wet is almost impossible.
I play Legere reeds but they need to be played for a few minutes to warm them up before they start to sound good. I also play cane and my choice depends on my mood. It also makes a difference which cut of reed you are using. They have the signature reed and their regular reed. The Signature is a nicer sounding reed imho.
Legere in a pinch, but I always prefer wood. Except on contra... wood does not respond consistently throughout the registers on contra, so I use Legere. The wood has a nicer sound, but also depends on the music. When I need volume and bite, and for the sound to cut through then it's Legere hands down on contra.
I always find it strange that people judge plastic purely in comparison to cane - with practice you can compensate for some of the troubles people find with them :) loved this video super informative and great
Have you compared the Fibrecell reeds? I really love them....I use a med. Or 2.5 Just got a med. Soft....surprised ....I think like it.. In my cost range.....$8-11. I rotate mine... have 3 mouthpieces..Some sound wonderful on low notes, some respond better on marches...I have played clarinet for 55 years...not thast good, but love my concert practices each week with the Willamette Valley Concert Band...Albany, Or. Buffet Crampon & Cie's....low Eb. Beautiful Girl....and Guttsie!
I gave my daughter a Fibrecell reed. Just one. I can't tell the difference without doing A/B comparison, though. The best part about it was the cost savings in not replacing broken wood reeds. She has about a dozen broken wood reeds vs. one still-good "plastic" reed that she's been playing for over a year now. She's 11 yrs old.
Super interesting. I've briefly tried a few of these alternative reeds on sax and immediately disliked them but I actually struggled to pick the difference here. I'd be interested to see a similar video on the other options out there. E.g. I believe plasticover uses real cane but coats it in plastic to stop it breaking down over time
I tried out plastic reeds for a little while about a year and a half ago and found I like cane better as well. I was playing in marching band and orchestra and found that, yeah the plastic reeds lasted through the marching abuse but didn’t give me the volume I needed for that setting. I switched back to cane permanently when I actually cracked my plastic reed, which is tough to do!
Plastic reeds do not have that BARK
I'm sure the pun was unintentional
OMFG BRO THAT HAD ME ON THE FLOOR
imitatsiya I i
I was JUST thinkin that lol
imitatsiya I was about to comment about that.
.......🤣😂😃😄😅
“And I use a 2.5 cuz I’m like a 5th grader”
Honey Darling Sugar Bumkin Sweetheart I was just quoting what he said lol
Aaaand, (sorry but) that's not right. Reeds match to your mouthpiece, not the strength of your muscles. If you have a more open mouthpiece, generally you use softer reeds. If you have a more close facing, your reeds will be harder strength. Just to keep things straight here :)
👍 Thanks. I know better now. before, I was taught it was based on other factors since we all used the exact same type mouthpiece. And some people moved while others didn't.
Erick Martinez it would be different if a person uses 2.5 reed with a tip opening of 8 or 9 haha
Erick Martinez 3.5 is the bets for high notes
I only use plastic reeds during marching season so they won’t get dry when it’s really cold out.
During concert season I go back to my wooden reeds
I would have loved to have plastic reeds when I was in Marching Band. They weren't around in the 80s. I always had some really bad chipped reeds for marching season. *Bass Clarinet.
Not to mention warping
I only knew of plasticoat reeds when I was in marching band, that was 1990-1994.
I'm in the same camp with you Nicole, Plastic for marching and cane reed for me during concert season.
All the clarinets and saxaphones in my band never use plastic reeds, even playing outside. Of course I live in Alaska, so we learn to deal with it.
Ima trumpet player...
Why am I here?!
Trevor Cannon ....to show the other trumpet players where they are going wrong...then become a conductor😆
I'm a guitar player...
...why am I here?
Ok, my daughter plays Clarinet.
Trevor Cannon I’m a flute. I’m. Strong independent wooden who don’t need no reed.
I’m a trombone player...
Why am I HERE?
Im a trombone and flute player
honestly besides the volume thing, plastic reeds seem perfect for marching band (but it's not like anyone can hear the clarinets anyway)
you want to be careful. the legere's can play louder, but the tone is more spread, so it won't travel as far. if you want a setup that can project, use a very open mouthpiece (like Vandoren B45), then use a reed that's a little too hard for you, so that it sounds fuzzy when you play. But the fuzzy sound won't be heard 20 feet away, and you'll get a bright, clean sound.
Many marching bands have woodwind features now in their shows. Clarinets better be able to be heard!
Bs that’s not true
What's not true?
To prove the point clarinets get features...
I got a pretty cool clarinet feature when I was in high school. If you want you should check it out, because I'm screaming out an ultra sonic B :^)
It's in the second movement of the video below. Cane Reed. It is a 3.5+ Rue Lepic.
th-cam.com/video/mlvmUxLEdIg/w-d-xo.html
I've been using Legere reeds for about ten years. I have a couple of them that I'm still using. If you break one in that is a little stiff at first, they can last for a very long time. I've noticed that the newer signature series is thinner and doesn't seem to last as long, but I like the response better than the classic. Another thing that I've found that is helpful, is to lick the back of the reed so that it is wet when you put it on the mouthpiece. That moisture gives me a nice seal on the table of the mouthpiece. Moving the reed up or down just the tiniest bit can also make a big difference in response. Thanks for another excellent and informative video.
I think the shirts are the best part. Where can I get one?
When I could discern a difference, I much preferred the sound of the plastic reeds. With softer playing, they had more clarity and purity of tone, and with louder playing, they got rowdy without the overly abrasive harshness (like fingernails on a chalkboard) that the cane reeds had.
BlameItOnGreg the synthetic reeds typically vibrate more uniformly and produce more of the lower partials (overtones)
People often describe the resulting sound as "darker" or more "mellow"
Some might argue and say that your "purity of tone" sounds artificial and sterile since those subtle nuance is what brings music to life.
I always thought that the cane reeds were much better than the plastic reeds, but after seeing this video, the results were much closer than I thought. I have a Bari Saxophone Legere and a Vandoren 3 1/2 reed for my contra-alto clarinet, so I will only know for sure once I try both of them.
All plastic reeds used to be crap. It's not many years that synthetic has been a real option.
Warning, long winded comment!
I think the main thing holding people back from Légère is that there is no good way to try a selection. People might agree to buy one Reed, but if it doesn't work with what they have currently they stop trying. Legere is different from cane, it would make sense to try different versions and different mouthpieces until you find something that works and give it a run.
I used to hate Légère in high school and thought they were completely unplayable. But when I got to college I was shocked to see my professor switch to one angrily during a particularly bad weather/reed day. He doesn't play on them normally, but if his cane won't cooperate he moves to something that will. (Until he can adjust or break in something new)
After trying out what his combination was I decided to switch and give Légère a chance. I found that I was able to get around 85-90% of the same results from Légère, cold, no break in, no adjustment period. As a music Ed major I don't have time to be babying cane reeds and keeping up constant new rotations. Legere let's me perform and practice with out any of the complaints associated with reeds. Which is a phenomenal achievement (seriously pay attention to how much people complain about reeds).
For the other instruments I've still to find a good combination. On bass they "work" but like you Michael I'm not sold on them. I probably just need to try more mouthpieces. For eb I sound terrible so anything Légère will follow lol. However on contra they are a REQUIREMENT. I've seen die hard vandoren/cane players switch to Légère when assigned contra. Cane reeds will close up and warp every time on a reed of that size.
If you're still reading this comment, thanks! I'll get off my soapbox now and feel free to ask any questions!
You mentioned that there is no good way to try a selection. I just wanted to say you can return Legeres that you buy from Amazon. I've done it countless times, and now I have awesome Legeres to use. You'd be surprised at how much the reeds can vary, even though they are synthetic.
If you live near LA, I think RDG woodwinds allows you to try a few Legeres and pick the ones you want -- I think.
This is probably a dumb question but do the plastic reeds chip? Bc if not I’d be willing to try them.
Hazel D all reeds have the potential to chip, but legere are much stronger than cane reeds. Of all the plastic reeds I've used I think I've only chipped one (and that one was pretty old).
As long as you're not too rough with it it won't chip.
I've got a few Legeres and haven't chipped any yet
Geronimo thank you!
have to say that, for the Bb, the plastic sounded good enough for most of what I'm likely to do with my playing. It was 95% as good as the cane but without any of the potential downsides. Be interesting to compare a plastic to some cane that's straight out the box, no selecting good cane.
Which Legere did you guys use? The European cut is way more flexible than the signature and I'd you haven't tried that it's way better. (they don't make it for the bass but soon they will) There is an adjustment period with legere. You have to play them with less vertical pressures and that does take months to adjust. Also moving the reed slightly up and down makes huge differences. Lastly, you have to have the right mouthpiece to use them. You have to take a reed to the store and try mouthpieces out that best suit the reed. It took me awhile to find the right combo but it was worth the effort. Now I just practicing instead of fixing reeds for the first hour or so. Traveling and weather changes are no longer a worry for me.
I was using European cut. I think my Kaspar mouthpiece is probably not the most compatible with the plastic. Trying reeds AND mouthpieces would have made a really long video! I'm going to keep messing with them because I think they could be great for teaching at school.
I have to second the idea of having a suitable mouthpiece for legere reeds. The Austrian and German mouthpiece makers I play have a specific facing of their mouthpieces especially for legere reeds. My personal issues with legere reeds have mostly been finding a match which works intonation wise.
I really enjoyed the setup of this test!
Was it the European signature cut?
How many different cuts does Legere make now? When I first tried them there was just one, but a few years ago I tried them again and there was regular cut and Quebec cut.
One thing that's worth noting is that I have always needed to go down by 1/4 of a strength or even 1/2 a strength. So while I play 3.5 reeds on both clarinet and alto saxophone, when I play a Legere I need either as 3 or 3.25.
for clarinet: Legere classic, Legere signature, and Legere european signature.
for sax: Legere classic, Legere studio cut, and Legere signature
I love you, i love your brutal honesty, about yourself, about people, about anything...
5:58 You see her put the reed in her mouth, therefore it is cane.
Jared Ho I literally thought the same thing😂
Plastic reeds need saliva to make better contact with the mouth piece in order to cause vibration, which is what makes the sound on the clarinet or any woodwind for that matter.
I particularly enjoy any videos that you do jointly with Katherine; the back and forth is very helpful.
Your shirts are my MOOD 😂 I play Bb clarinet and bass clarinet 😂
I like how he blurred her wetting the reed so you couldn't see it was cane... lol
Thanks for the very informative video! This was burning a hole in my mind, and now I know what to choose!
You two should recut this vid after getting used to the Legeres. Once you get your embouchure used to the smaller adjustments that plastic/nylon requires, you might be quite surprised at how much more consistent the Legeres are from reed to reed. Just sitting down with any new reed cut - even bamboo, takes some getting used to. Also, try going down 1/2 stiffness.
Disclamer - I also play Van Doren on my Yamaha (4) and Buffet Crampon (3.5).
Reeds are a very personal thing, what they think of those reeds might be completely different to others. Personally I run legere signature 3.5 on clarinet and 3.25 on bass clarinet. However I do hop between legere and vandoren v12 3.5 for both bass clarinet and clarinet. In the end i do prefer the legere reeds just because they work for me. And here in Canada where it's a heat storm one day and a snow storm the next (and my inability to work on reeds) my cane reeds don't always make the sound I want where the legere reeds will work in any condition.
Absolutely! Like I've said to a few other commenters, this is all a very personal thing. I'm not telling anyone to change what they use, nor am I saying "I'm right." - Just giving my 2¢ as usual.
Reed may be personal, but the sound they produce isn't. If it sticks out like a sore thumb (especially on a clarinet), EVERYBODY will know it.
I am a returning brass player, four years now. Other than tooting on a woodwind in the seventies I know nothing about your instrument. I subscribed to your channel because I admire your skill. My day job is engineering.
That said I was surprised when I picked out the wood reeds more often than not because of the pleasing sound. Kudos on your contributions to your channel.
I'm in the process of switching to Legere European Signature reeds on the Bb permanently. I've been very patient with the Legeres, going from strength 3.25 to 4.25 in quarter strength increments, and taking 1-2 weeks to try them before returning. In my experience, these reeds also have a break-in period: it take at least a week for the reeds to play how it will for the rest of it's "reed-life."Start with a reed that is slightly harder, and after the break-in, it'll soften up a bit and be perfect for you. The best strength Legere to get is the hardest strength you can play on without getting a fuzzy sound in any dynamic and range on the clarinet
Ray Zhang When I first switched to plastic, I felt the exact same way (I was on a 4.25 looking to switch to 4.5). But I noticed, with the help of my teacher, that I was just working to hard to get a sound. I was looking for the same type of resistance to blow against that cane reeds have in abundance, but instead I was getting overly resistant reeds that were mismatched to my mouthpiece. I played on and then switched to 3.75 and now I'm playing on 3.5-3.25. Once I stopped biting the reed the sound was so full and easy to produce, it wad kinda scary. Anyway, that's just my 2¢.
Ray Zhang where do you buy reeds that you can return?
you can return the Legeres that you buy from Amazon. I've done it countless times. Yes you won't get 2-day shipping, but I could care less since money is more important to me.
Ray Zhang do you get a full refund?
yes you do!
The thing with the Legeres is they just always work. I have friends who play them because it gives them confidence they can’t always be sure of with cane, and confidence in the tools is obviously a big deal (I actually wonder if this is why professionals seem to be switching - the very high consistency and reliability is just more valuable than a slight tone quality loss?). I have two Legeres in my case for when the environment is weird (usually outside) and nothing else is working, or when my best cane reeds are already waterlogged from playing all day, or whatever. I was nonetheless surprised by the fact that I could ID the cane almost all the time (I got all the Bb tests, almost all the bass) just because the sound slightly lacked the richness and roundness of cane, at least as recorded and on my headphones. They’re getting really close, but for me they aren’t quite there yet and I’ll live with my V21s and associated hassles and wait for the next version of the synthetics.
Laughing because I’m an Oboe player. They don’t understand reed struggles like us double reed players do.
Exactly! I play alto sax but I'm an oboe player first. I chipped the corner of my alto reed and it played just fine, but I did the same to my oboe reed a month ago and it didn't play! Single reed peeps will never understand.
Lol I understand
I basically play every single woodwind instrument and the instruments that have the least struggles is the flutes. Also I play alto for marching band, my reed gets banged up all the time and it still plays fine. But my oboe reed on the other hand :/. My oboe fell on the floor and chipped the corner of it, then right after that, someone stepped on the reed by accident. I was dead on the inside.
Yeah I play Trombone which is a much easier life lol
@@spug9338 Just wait, we have many issues..
I'm a bass trombonist, and I could tell MUCH better than random guessing on the Soprano Clarinet side. For the bass clarinet, it was only really obvious for me on the Rite of Spring solo, but for that one in particular, it was clear as day which was which.
I think on bass clarinet, you could probably get away with the plastic reeds most of the time, perhaps only switching to cane for particular repertoire. For soprano- no way, play wood or the audience is going to know.
I am a "doubler", and often play in musical pit orchestras (community). For my flat reeds, I nearly always use Legere reeds because they will play right away even when cold and dry. I have been really happy with them. They are also good for teaching because you can just pick up the instrument and play. My double reeds are hand made though.
Honestly I now use a legere EUROPEAN CUT (the other ones are trash) strength 4.5 permanently and I'm never going back to wood they're consistent and sound great. TIP: If you want to make them last longer, rinse off the back of the reed after every time you play on it to prevent spit from drying in the cracks, I've been doing this and I've been playing on the same plastic reed for five months and it still sounds great
I´m sorry guys , but on the playbacks, the plastic reeds sounded more even and bigger and warmer. It is all very subjective, and
I think you should work a little more with the plastic and keep in mind my earlier suggestions. You still have to work at it to to get what you want.
Michael is a Vandoren artist so it's likely he'll stay Vandoren. if he spent more time trying Legeres (and worst case situation switching a mouthpiece), he could probably end up with a Legere setup he likes. but it's unlikely he'll do that
must be subjective. I thought the plastic reeds were missing a comparative ton of resonance, sounding thin and flat especially on the slower etude. I imagine the quality of one's playback system might have an effect too.
No way. The cane reeds had such a depth that I could tell was missing from the plastic reeds instantly. The plastic reeds do sound smoother but it makes it sound artificial. Like digital vs traditional art. One just has the extra touch to it that gives it a special richness.
I have the same issue with the oboe reeds. They have no lower partials and so they sound thin and waxy. Much better than the opd fiber cane plastic reeds, but still not something i can play on in concert
I've done numerous tests with mouthpieces and instruments over the years, blind tests, students and teachers both as players and listeners. Many times the listeners could not tell a difference, or guessed wrong. When they could tell a difference, they often could not say that one was "better" than the other, just different, at least with the products we were testing.
I had one for my alto sax and I loved it for the most part. I liked that it was reliable and always played the same
I use Legere exclusively , but on saxes. One has to warm them up for 2-3 minutes. One should also find mouthpieces
that play well with Legere. On sax there are 3 models of Legere reeds. I have this problem solved and go to my
gigs totally confident in my reed situation. WHAT A RELIEF!!!! If I play long gigs, i will rotate reeds. I use a system to see how many gigs i have played on each reed. For me , the Legere on tenor can split on the tip if i´m really working extreme
altissimo- into the 5th octave. I will practice that kind of thing on reeds that are past their prime. Throw out all preconceptions
and really explore the possibilities!
Marching band ha!
So I played the oboe.
Then they handed me a saxophone and said you’re marching anyway.
"now its not behaving" haha, yup, my entire life
I still prefer cane reeds. I use the Ridenour method to prepare them and have found that each reed has it's own pros and cons but i can tweak them for maximum performance. They also have a more flexible dynamic range which adds more emotion.
Thanks for the demo.
Rik spector
Cool video guys! I switched to Legere several years ago. I love their consistency and I can spend more of my time practicing rather than fussing with reeds!
I'd be curious to see you try some of the different synthetic reeds with different mouthpieces. Just a comparison between synthetic. I definitely don't like all of them. Some are a bit stuffy to me, but I found the legere American cut works really well with my jazz alto setup. Also you might need a lower strength to have a similar feel.
Hi Michael! Good job here! I'm a good, old friend of John Moses and was there when he started down the Legere path. It takes awhile to get used to them, but once he did, I could not tell that John was playing a synthetic reed. At first I could tell right away, then he got the articulation sorted out, and then he found the sound, more reed like. So, if this was pretty much the first time you guys were trying Legeres, then I think they held up very well against cane reeds, and with some continued playing, you could probably get the same results. Or close to it. As a lowly, untrained doubler on Broadway, they have saved my a** many times at WICKED, especially on bass clarinet. I also use them on clarinet and bari sax. It might be sacrilegious, but I use a Signature Tenor Sax Legere on bass, just seems to make more noise as is required on Broadway. Give them a try! Best, Harry
i dont even play a wind instrument...
but after the first round i got all of them right 😂😂
i can just really hear the difference
Legere Signature reeds are great - I was also pleasantly surprised when I tried them. They are still far from matching the responsiveness or sound quality of a good cane reed, but they're also 100% more reliable. I use mine every time I'm playing a show where I need to switch between instruments because they are instantly playable, no need to warm them up or break them in. And it's a great thing to have in the case for those days when all your other reeds decide to let you down :)
Agree totally - they are perfect for those pit orchestra situations when you need to pick up an instrument that you haven't played in 10, 20, 30 minutes, and know that it will respond. I also recommend them to my students who have a clarinet on their stand in jazz band and are going to need to play it 20 minutes into the concert.
I'm not sure how this is a valid comparison- any change to your setup will require some adjustment period. Moving from cane to Legere is a significant change requiring a distinct adjustment period. Additionally, assuming that you were playing the Legere Classic, they are much more comparable to your Vandoren Blue Box than the V12/V21. While they may not match the very best reeds, they will be better than at least 3 out of 5 of a typical box of brand name cane reeds. My story is the same as many- with a bit of adjustment, I find that I sound better on Legere reeds than on the average cane reed and that I no longer have to worry about the numerous failings of cane reeds. Perhaps, if you gave them an actual shot, your feelings would be different.
It seems I might have struck a nerve with this video. I know people are very passionate about what they use, and to have me poke at that…well, it causes some folks to feel like I'm negating their experience. Nothing could be farther from the truth-everyone's experience is just as valid as everyone else's (mine included). I recognize that I could give Legere a longer try, and perhaps I will. But as long as I'm happy with what I've got, why switch? Same for you, of course-as long as you're happy, then you know what? We're both happy.
That is a perfectly fair statement and you're obviously right- if your setup works for you, then why switch? I think the reaction, knee-jerk or not, is that you are condeming those of us who for whom synthetic reeds, like the Legere or Forestone, work for without giving it a fair trial. Though we are finally starting to see a handful of prominent classical clarinetists and saxophonists switch to these reeds, we still get more than our share of criticism from the established classical community, and that may make many of us somewhat overly sensitive of the topic. I hope you know that I mean absolutely no disrespect.
Tristan Carpenter I mean there's a reason Berlin and Vienna have switched over to plastic ;)
Vienna still uses Weiner oboes, so... ;-)
Agreed that the set up is perhaps a bigger factor. Which means the plastic compares well and can hold it's own. It may be that about different strength plastic will give the loud notes what he's looking for.
Also since the good cane vs bad cane was such a big discussion point - it gives the plastic the lead. And the longevity may really split the difference and give plastic the edge (puns intended)
Great video overall...well done!
I like Legeres, except . . . on bass clarinet, where I just don't like the sound. For soprano clarinet, the European cut is much better and to me seems like it would usally be about the 2nd-3rd best reed in a box of cane, certainly good enough for rehearsals and, often, concerts.
On thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Legeres are an absolute Godsend for pit work. I like the sound of Legeres on sax, but more importantly, you often need to pick up a horn that has been sitting for 20++ minutes and come in on an exposed part - with a Legere, you know it's going to work. This past summer, I had 6 horns in a pit and used Legeres on 5 of them (including bass clarinet, really no alternative).
Thank you.PLEASE,more videos about plastic reeds or other analogues to cane:)
You two are great. Enjoying your videos.
The tune they played for articulation is the same piece I played for my bass clarinet auditions
As a self-taught beginner, I’m finding the Legere “European cut” 3.0 strength on a Yamaha 4C works well enough for me. The thing I hear about plastic reeds is that they’re supposed to be good for slap tonguing.
The plastic reeds have a smooth, almost blank feel to them. It's like, where is the wood in the woodwind? I much prefer the more organic, resonant tone of the cane reeds.
Many years ago, I got to be the guinea pig trying out a plastic reed on the bassoon. it definitely felt different in the mouth, and was not giving the range of tone I was accustomed to. I stuck with the cane, even though the plastic was cheaper. Sometimes cheaper is not worth it.
I play clarinet and use 3 1/2 reeds as well and I have both a plastic red and wooden reeds, but I have to say that wooden reeds, in my opinion, give off a better sound and feel better as far as vibration. When I play my plastic reed, I feel like I have to push a lot more air out. Awesome experiment!!! I was intrigued!!!!!!!
i’m a flute/bassoon player and this was very helpful
dou deserve way more abonnements. every clarinetist searching for helps on the internet is bound to come to you sooner or later
Légère user here. I use European Cut 3 with a Vandoren 5JB for my Bb clarinet (used to play the Signature cut before that), and a saxophone Signature 2,5 with a Brilhart "made for Buescher" on my Buescher Alto clarinet (yes, saxophone reed... no alto Signature no more in the catalog... but works very well). What I like in those reeds : free blowing, help me to feel comfortable and express myself, they are sturdy, long last, I like the feeling on the tongue more than a cane reed. It's a part of me and my sound when I play clarinet. I understand it's a choice, but that's how I feel.
Thank you Michael for this video. I use and prefer cane reeds. I like very much to working on in my reeds. It´s a art work very pleasured!
Thank God for plastic reeds and plastic coated reeds! I'm allergic to the oils in wood reeds and now I can play without getting a rash on my lips!
Great video. I’m a legere signature series fan as I hate having those bad reed days.
As always there will be a slight compromise if you choose either cane or plastic.
Thanks for this video
The legere reeds as they warm after let’s say 30 mins of playing get softer which for me makes it more dynamic. Xx
Even though they might not quite play as well, the strong point of plastic reeds is their consistency from day-to-day since they aren't influenced by weather, so you don't waste time and money and stress finding a good reed. Sometimes that is more important.
So true.
I've been trying them with some of my students this week and I have some very happy campers. These kids have auditions soon and they need stability.
I tested the Fibercane Oboe Reed for 25 years. The manufacturer neglected the upkeep of the tooling which was extremely complicated and labor-intensive.
Wholesaled to Selmer, in Elkhart Indiana and they distributed these reeds all over the United States. and parts of Europe.The schools don’t invest in oboe players anymore. I still make professional oboe reeds.
They were actually very excellent reeds for beginning oboists, since they played consistently. I had my first one in 1966 or 1967 at 11 or 12 years old. Some plastic reeds have their merits.
The Legere European Cut Bass Clarinet reeds are steps ahead of both the signature and classic versions. Could you please repeat the comparison with wood and perhaps the American Cut Tenor Sax reeds.
I love what you guys are wearing. I need to buy it😂
I picked out the the Bb plastic legere, by slight flatness in the throat tones. I find I have pitch problems on all Legere reeds on Bb clarinet, Signatures, Euroes, and Soprano Sax. I would love to know why.
In my rather limited experience, I find a double lip embouchure problematic on Legere reeds in ways it never is with single lip. I'm primarily a single lip player, but I am comfortable with and use both.
It's not a matter of double lip: I mostly play double lip but occasionally single lip. no difference in pitch. but different reeds just tune differently, it's not a surprise. I find Steuers to be slightly sharper than the Vandorens in my opinion. probably due to the Steuers being slightly thicker than the Vandorens, and making me pinch more without realizing?
For me, the Legere is actually more in tune than any other cane reed. Especially throat tones and chalumeau. Maybe you feel it's flat because it is much thinner than most cane reeds? Try curling your bottom lip more, or tighten it more. If that closes off the reed, get a Legere a quarter-strength higher, and that should solve the problem.
I gave those plastic reeds a good test over some time. The thing that I hated was the "buzz" sensation on the lips. The sound, nothing I could put my finger on, but preferred the cane.
I’m not a fan of the Legere reeds at all. I was running into the same issues you described with your bass clarinet- but I experienced those problems on both my soprano and bass clarinets. I’m a purist with my Vandoren reeds (I use V-12s). However, a friend of mine suggested I try Silverstein Works reeds. I like them (so far) in past two months I’ve used them. I noticed they have a synthetic reed called Alta Ambipoly, and they claim to be a synthetic reed that sounds like a cane reed. They only have this reed available for Bb soprano clarinet, but I actually like it! I have two of them right now and they have a surprisingly bright and resonant sound! I use them for gigs when I am playing more “pop-ish” stuff that requires me to play a little brighter. I’m still a purist when playing concert band or orchestra literature though, and I’ll keep playing my cane reeds there. Have you tried Silverstein Works yet? I’m curious to know your thoughts.
Just going through a carton of cane and inspecting them for suitability is reason enough to choose the more uniform synthetic. So a move towards uniformity at all times is a plus in my book.
Tone? In solo work, perhaps cane. But synthetic is so... set and forget. I can't help but prefer synthetic reeds in the great majority of circumstances.
yeah her name is ms. cooke and shes my 6th grade music teacher
Interesting
I made the full switch to Legere Euro cut Signatures on Bb, but that's because I just so happened to own a few mouthpieces that were quite compatible with them. I have yet to switch to the Legere Signatures on bass or on my saxes because quite frankly they don't sound that great on my mouthpieces and unlike with the soprano clarinet, I'm not as willing to go out and find the right mouthpiece for the Legere on my other instruments.
I don't think Legere reeds are at the point where they could completely replace cane. If they just so happen to work on your setup or you're willing to go out of your way to spend $200-$400 searching for a new mouthpiece setup, make the switch! I'm super happy with mine and am at the point where I'm taking them to major performances and auditions. If they don't work for you, no problem! Use what sounds best and feels best to you.
Thank you for great vids. In regards to the synthetic reeds, it is important to note that though they aren't better than cane, they are great for doublers and those of us who live in dry climates. I'm in Santa Fe, NM.
I use a no. 4 reed. Its really fun and it has a better sound on the higher registers, especially on the 3rd register.
My take: Legere reeds can and should be worked on as wooden reeds in terms of sanding and filing( of course not on the vamp, just the top). Huge improvement. Buy slightly hard, then customize. Legere reeds are good for doubling situations in that they always respond the way you can predict. They work on clarinet better than sax in my experience. They're good for just leaving on the horn and picking up for a quick practice interlude. They're great for students who don't know how to care for wood reeds. They can make you really appreciate a good wood reed, but you can get used to them and not miss wood.
The bass clarinet that you played sounds so much different from mine
Great test. I personally didn't hear much of a difference between cane and plastic. I have been using Legere for about three years and much prefer them to cane. No messing with cane to balance it etc. Put it on and play, no need to wet the reed. They last a long time. I agree, you need to match the reed with an appropriate mouthpiece. Thanks for the video.
As a clarinet and saxophone player, I still prefer playing my cane reeds - when they cooperate! As a band teacher, I love Legere reeds when the students find the right one. Think about it this way: As an individual player, what are the odds of finding the perfect cane reed in the 60 seconds you have to get ready for class? Now, what are the odds of every clarinet and saxophone player in your band finding the perfect reed in that same amount of time? Legere reeds may not be buttery and rich enough for your next solo recital, but I sure love not having to hunt through the band looking for the kid with the cane reed that's chipped, warped, fuzzy, worn-out, or not cooperating with the weather. In my opinion, Legere reeds sound more than good enough for section work at any level.
Thank goodness for the invention of plastic reeds cause I broke like 7 wooden reeds in one month during marching season (then I ended up splitting the plastic reed during rehearsal)
Ever consider the reed woodwinds might not be your thing? Perhaps a nice trumpet or trombone would be a better choice?
My teacher uses 2.5 legeres with the rovner dark ligature on a Premiere mouthpiece by HITE. He said his last read played for two years while doing 1.5 hour shows for a circus plus teaching and stuff. I happened to have the same set-up for tenor (then also bought it for alto) and it works great at my level as well. They are very consistent, and the benefit of not having to mess with reeds is a huge set of benefits. You have to clean off the reed of build-up more like a mouthpiece though, but that's low maintenance by comparison to cane.
I'm perfectly happy playing my clarinet with Vandoren 2.5 reeds as they make a very mellow sound. I don't think that I would want to change to plastic ones as they have a harsh sound that I don't like. Thank you very much for this very informative video you both. Very helpful and enjoyable to watch. I will be getting my clarinet out again this week. Can you do a video on preventing squeaks? I have a consistent problem, which I think is caused by my fingers not covering holes properly, but it might be something else. Also I often find that the note B often doesn't speak, it's very temperamental and annoying!! Thank you both very much and have a lovely day.
My friend uses the legere contrabass reed and he loves it, im more of a fibracell or bari guy myself. Love the way they sound with my high schools selmer bass clarinet
I love the plastic reeds for my wooden buffet its makes the sound more brighter and less effort of air
I had a similar reaction when trying one on bass clarinet, but after hearing how well Katherine sounded on Bb soprano I'm interested in trying one on that instrument.
Hey Michael, I experienced the same thing you demonstrated with Legere bass clarinet reeds, both the Signature and Classic. Try a tenor sax STUDIO CUT. Solved most of the issues, for me anyway. It's still not a cane reed, but the slight differences are not worth it to me to monkey around with cane reeds anymore. Thanks for the video!
I sit next to a bass player that plays with the Tenor Sax reed too
Completely agree with your assessment. I'd use Legere reeds in a pinch, especially when playing pit orchestra. But there's no comparison to cane. I make my own soprano clarinet reeds from tube cane and thereby have a great deal of control over the source of cane, the selection of cane, etc. I've even published on techniques for determining the quality of the cane before you make the reed. Remember that "hardness" is determined by the cane quality, not by the profile within any particular brand of commercial reeds.
While the latest Legere reeds are an improvement over their older designs (you can read the Legere patents online and Legere's justification for their newer designs), these reeds are still made from polypropylene with a specific alignment of the polypropylene molecules within the plastic. That's what's patentable.
At any rate, nothing yet comes close to a good cane reed, despite all of the disadvantages of cane, such as day to day variability, limited lifespan, etc. Many tactics can be used to minimize these disadvantages, including rotation of your reeds, re-balancing of your reeds as they change, storing them at 72% relative humidity, etc. Legere reeds don't have good softs and louds, they can't take the air volume at loud volumes, they don't have the range of tone colors that good cane provides, and they sometimes can be just as difficult to manage as cane as they age, and they do age.
With that said, you may be amazed that a clarinetist as skilled as Ricardo Morales uses Legere reeds often. In my opinion, however, his sound was much better when he was routinely using cane.
Where have you guys been living? Under a trumpet player's case? I was using nylon reeds in 1976. Solved the biggest predicament for a marching band clarinetist - good clarion registry response while maintaining great lows - no squeaks at high knee 8 to 5!
I played alto saxophone for 4 years and I've found that vandoren was the best for me. I liked it because it made my sax sound clearer than the reeds my band teacher provided.
The plastic is better out of the box, but with the variability of wooden reeds, you must take the time to prepare the reeds and care for them. To get a true test, take the time to hydrate the Reed for a few minutes, balance the Reed with sand paper or Reed knife, and close the wooden pores by rubbing the back and front of the Reed with a paper grocery bag. It is a lot of work, but you will get the best sound and also preserve the Reed for a longer period of time.
The plastic Reed is perfect in regard to balance, unlike the out of the box wooden Reed. A lot of time and measuring went into the creation of the plastic Reed. To have a better test: take some time to prepare the wood.
Thanks for doing the test and making the video. Like people have said, plastic is good for marching band or in a pinch, but I think a good balanced Reed will produce more overtones and therfore have a better tone.
I’d be curious to see what the overtones of the two types of reeds looked like, in one of those tests you ran with mouthpieces a few years back. I think the sound of cane is noticeably richer and I think I can tell, but I’d be curious if there really is something there or if I’m just fooling myself 😀
You're not fooling yourself; here is something there. But the question is whether or not its significant. Especially when you consider that each instrument varies based on the workmanship and quality and type of material. And finally, the player.
I love his shirt😂😂🤣🤣
My band director in high school always warned about plastic reeds "messing up" your articulation. I used a plastic reed on the contra-alto all year my senior year and I don't think that was necessarily true, but this video definitely shows the minutiae between plastic and cane reeds, and where they may be better for different situations. I use a 5RV and 3.5 V21s in both concert and marching settings because I care about my tone. Some of my friends in my marching section use plastic reeds and they really don't make that much of a difference on the field, but after watching this video and knowing what I already know, I am still not going to recommend plastic reeds for concert settings unless there are extenuating circumstances, maybe for larger instruments and money is an issue.
i don't like plastic as much on clarinet cuz they're usually flat, then I re tune and it goes waaaay sharp. I'm good at tuning and can usually fix that quickly but it's a pain sometimes. they're also kind of blare-y, if that makes sense. HOWEVER i love them on bass; mainly cuz I switch between the two instruments and I don't want the reed to dry out. but I also love them on solos and whatnot because, personally, i can control them better. I'm not sure why because everyone else says theyre harder to control, but i guess i'm just different. I haven't used a wood reed on a bass in idk how long. I'm not totally against it, I'll use either reed, but if I have a legiere and a vandoren in front of me, I'll pick the legiere. Side note: I HATE fiberglass on both instruments. it sounds like something is dying.
"Plastic doesn't have that 'bark'". Who would have thought that wood would have "bark"? 😀
I use a 3.5 I’m in 8th lol
Billy Karwoski ayyy same here. When did you start?
Lol I'm in 8th and I use 2.5 I'm basically a child
I'm in 8th and I use a 2 1/2 because that is what my school provides at least for my base for my regular I have a three that my band teachers got me
Lol when I was in 8th i was v12 3
I’m in 7th and I use three and a half’s
The only issue I have with the Legere reeds is soft entrances (opening of Weber Concertino, etc.) I may have too stiff a reed, but I play D'Dario blue box 4's on an old Genussa Excelente mouthpiece. I would use Legere in a pinch though.
Thanks for the great video. Keep it up. I think I might listen to you play Mozart for Marcellus tonight. Take care.
I use Legere reeds exclusively now. While its clear that a really good cane reed is better, not having to practice the ritual around maintaining current and grooming new reeds allows me to spend a little more time practicing. Plus, on concert day I never worry about chipping my favorite reed because the Legere is always ready to go. Having said all that, if there was a situation where I needed to produce my best sound with the clearest articulation I would use a cane reed and pray.
It is very easy to tell which is which just by the start of the note
I have been messing with Legere products for a couple years. The assessment on this video is spot on. My instructor knows exactly when I try to slip into her studio and start playing on plastic. I have decided to stick with cane on the soprano unless I have catastrophic failure with all my reeds. I double with a contrabass on occasion and I have to switch back and forth in those situations and the plastic is the way to go on both. As far as the contra goes, I am plastic all the way. Very good sound and it lasts for a very long time with the big boy. I recently started playing the bass. Since it is not my primary instrument keeping reeds rotated and all the voodoo magic involved in keeping the reeds healthy, I may stick with the plastic on this one as well. The verdict is still out on the bass. These reeds have come a long way and the Euro cut on the soprano has been my best bet when I do play them on the soprano. In any case, this is a good reed to keep in your case, hate it or love it, when you pull it out you will have consistency no matter what your external variations may throw at you.
This has been a hot topic for awhile. I think cane reeds are a little more flexible and vibrate a little better. It's really obvious in the throat tones. I've also had issues with plastic reeds breaking on tenor sax. Never had the issue on clarinet but I think it has to do with the material flexing back and forth at fff dynamics.
I basically agree with both of you. I have a Bb clarinet Legere that I like well enough and use for ceremonial music (military) because it doesn't dry out - I'm never stuck suddenly playing a hymn and having a reed that doesn't vibrate because I've been listening to an admiral yap for an hour. Otherwise, I generally prefer my Bb cane reeds. But bass clarinet? Hell no to the plastic reeds. They're spready and huffy, they take a ton of air, and they sound like ass for the amount of work I need to do. I saw David Shifrin talk about using Legeres in a masterclass, and he said he had to completely change his mouthpiece and ligature to make them work, but now he prefers them. I'm still wrapping my head on how he picked a good Legere and then proceeded to find a setup that works with the reed...
I just bought a Leger reed (currently in the mail somewhere) and am hoping it may be helpful for those scorching day, outside, summer community band concerts where keeping a reed wet is almost impossible.
I play Legere reeds but they need to be played for a few minutes to warm them up before they start to sound good. I also play cane and my choice depends on my mood. It also makes a difference which cut of reed you are using. They have the signature reed and their regular reed. The Signature is a nicer sounding reed imho.
Legere in a pinch, but I always prefer wood. Except on contra... wood does not respond consistently throughout the registers on contra, so I use Legere. The wood has a nicer sound, but also depends on the music. When I need volume and bite, and for the sound to cut through then it's Legere hands down on contra.
I always find it strange that people judge plastic purely in comparison to cane - with practice you can compensate for some of the troubles people find with them :) loved this video super informative and great
Have you compared the Fibrecell reeds?
I really love them....I use a med. Or 2.5
Just got a med. Soft....surprised ....I think like it..
In my cost range.....$8-11.
I rotate mine... have 3 mouthpieces..Some sound wonderful on low notes, some respond better on marches...I have played clarinet for 55 years...not thast good, but love my concert practices each week with the Willamette Valley Concert Band...Albany, Or.
Buffet Crampon & Cie's....low Eb.
Beautiful Girl....and Guttsie!
I gave my daughter a Fibrecell reed. Just one. I can't tell the difference without doing A/B comparison, though.
The best part about it was the cost savings in not replacing broken wood reeds. She has about a dozen broken wood reeds vs. one still-good "plastic" reed that she's been playing for over a year now. She's 11 yrs old.
I had a friend in HS that used a plastic reed on his Alto Sax for marching band. Sounded alright and was stupid loud.
Super interesting. I've briefly tried a few of these alternative reeds on sax and immediately disliked them but I actually struggled to pick the difference here. I'd be interested to see a similar video on the other options out there. E.g. I believe plasticover uses real cane but coats it in plastic to stop it breaking down over time
I tried out plastic reeds for a little while about a year and a half ago and found I like cane better as well. I was playing in marching band and orchestra and found that, yeah the plastic reeds lasted through the marching abuse but didn’t give me the volume I needed for that setting. I switched back to cane permanently when I actually cracked my plastic reed, which is tough to do!