Friend is playing Survivor (Ashcan Pete) for the first time and has had a lot of questions on timings. Linked him this video to help with his questions, so thank you for this!
My friend played Stella last summer and we sat down to discuss most of the timing rules... in doing the research for this video it turns out I got a few of them wrong! It's just not intuitive!
My favourite nonsense-timing in Arkham: "After you successfully investigate..." happens before "After you investigate..." The first timing point is in ST.6, so you can ignore location effects, that would trigger then with "Read the Signs", the latter is after (ST.8 of) the test, so too late for RtS to avoid.
This was a very useful video. I would like to suggest for your next rules video the timing and interactions with Mystic/Guardian chaos bag manipulation. How cards like `Olive McBride`, `Custom Modifications`, `Grotesque Statue`, and `Favor of the Sun` to name a few. With only one of these abilities they are pretty straight forward, but as soon as you add in one or more of the others most people have an aneurysm.
As of TSK, this kinda of timing nonsense is also pretty important for any Rogue running both "I'll Take That" (triggers on "When you successfully investigate/evade" aka st.7) and a source of draw such as LCC (st.6), Pickpocketing (st.6) etc. with it being possible to play I'll Take That if you draw if from LCC. Unless I'm mistaken.
Oh yes, good interaction! But I believe "I'll take that!" is also Step 6, but before LCC (when comes before after). So you could attach I'll take that to a LCC in your hand, and then immediately activate LCC!
@@Quick_Learner My understanding is that the skill test is successful at step 6, but only at step 7 is the enemy evaded/location investigated. I can see how it might be read the other way, though, if it's the "successful" part that's important and not the "evaded/investigated" part.
My read is that it's the same wording as Scavenging, which is "after you successfully investigate", and that's definitely Step 6. I'll confirm on the Mythos Busters Discord, though. :)
Loved watching this video! Any chance you'll do a rogue nonsense video with Haste / Double Double etc? I find that also equally confusing on whats fair game for what counts as actions across all the different cards that care about that kind of stuff.
Are you sure about the Quick Learner + Live and Learn ruling? It seems to be ruled for Drawing Thin that the difficulty remains the same on the second test with Live and Learn. So in your Stella example, after playing Live and Learn, the difficulty would be 4 again, not 2.
to be more specific: Q: If i fail the first action and play Live and Learn does the penalty from Quick Learner apply to the new skill test? A: The failed skill test and the test from Live and Learn are part of the same action, and would have the +1 difficulty from Quick Learner. (September 2023) previously the understanding was that actions and skill tests were coterminous, so when the first action's skill test was over, you played Live and Learn and it was no longer part of the first action.
Wait, then what about skills committed and other motifiers? I always read it as starting a brand new test, but if difficulty modifers carry over, what else does too?
No, just the difficulty carries over - you still resolve the effects of the test you took before, which includes discarding committed cards (ST.8). You'll have to commit cards and/or pay money for skill boosts anew.
I see that any skill card with "Innate" subtype resolves in step 7. Event cards with "Fortune" and "Talent" are resolving in step 6. With triggered actions on Asset cards its a bit problematic.
13:05 I don't get why it falls into ST.7? Ice Pick says "If you succeed", why is not that ST.6? Also, given the When>If>After wording detailed earlier, wouldn't it trigger before Scavenging in case both of them were ST.6? I don't quite see that part.
The difference is that Scavenging, etc. are reaction abilities and have to be triggered as soon as the condition has been met, so they are Step 6. "If you succeed" is a template that denotes "results of the skill test" and as such always go to ST.7 along with everything else. When>If>After is a bit of a red herring because "If" pretty much never goes with reaction or forced abilities.
One thing that confuses me about skill tests is the difference between adding 'skill icons' to a test (is that committing?), and reading the text on the card. With former, does the card stay in the hand, or is it 'discarded'.
@@Quick_Learner Sorry - I am a beginner and this question (apart from being unintelligible) unsuitable for your video here. I've resolved my query - thanks again for your time and I know this run through of timing issues will be really useful a little further down the line.
Oh wow, thanks good to know. But now I wonder which assets can I use and than kill during the skillcheck timing window and how does it resolve? Let's say I play damning testimony and use Joey the Rat vigil to discard it in the fast timing window, how does it resolve and can I get it back with scavenging?
Yes! Good question -- if your card leaves plays mid test, as long as you paid the cost originally, the test still resolves as normal. The very basic Knife card is a good example, since discarding it is part of the cost anyways! You still of course resolve the fight action as printed even though the Knife is no longer in play. So, for your example, indeed you can discard Damning Testimony with Joey the Rat, and then return it to your hand with Scavenging since Joey the Rat puts the card into the discard before Step 6 rolls around. This is a pretty common play with Old Keyring, too, since you can get some money back with Joey before Old Keyring discards itself!
@@Quick_Learner Ahh ofcourse okay but I wouldn't be able to discard an enemy as I can not spend evidence as it is already in the discard pile, right? :D
So, if Will Yorick is engaged with his signature weakness Graveyard Ghouls, can't he use his special ability when he kills them? He fights. He has success. His card is written "After you defeat an enemy..." So, according to this nonsense, "After you defeat an enemy happens after T.8 or during T.6"? When you defeat the Ghouls, are they still engaged with them?
Yes, he can. Defeating the enemy happens when you place the last point of damage on it. You defeat the enemy, it's no longer engaged with you, so Yorick can then play an asset from the discard. That's all Step 7. Graveyard Ghouls doesn't really interact with Yorick's ability except that in the event you're trying to fight multiple enemies, they demand your attention first (or just wait to use your ability when you kill them)
Sure. In general you can only commit cards during ST.2. Practice Makes Perfect circumvents this and allows you to commit the card when you play the event, which can only be during the player windows before or after ST.2. This isn't totally obvious since PMP says "during a skill test", so it sounds like you could play it anytime, but the rules really only allow you to play things during player windows, except for things that have explicit timing like "after you take damage", etc.
@@Quick_Learner When I first read the card, i thought, "during a skill test", that means that it is Lucky but better! The only thing that made me think that it has to be played before drawing chaos token is would be the best card in the game.
Honestly, I only care about the timing window bs FFG loves in Netrunner. Arkham ain't against other people, I just let abilities go off if it makes any kind of sense.
![CAMPปลิ้น | EP.83[2/2] ประสบการณ์ขนหัวลุกจากตำนานวงการผี!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/T_kFecQw7Ds/mqdefault.jpg)
Friend is playing Survivor (Ashcan Pete) for the first time and has had a lot of questions on timings. Linked him this video to help with his questions, so thank you for this!
My friend played Stella last summer and we sat down to discuss most of the timing rules... in doing the research for this video it turns out I got a few of them wrong! It's just not intuitive!
This was really in depth and clear with all the images. Thanks a lot!
My favourite nonsense-timing in Arkham: "After you successfully investigate..." happens before "After you investigate..." The first timing point is in ST.6, so you can ignore location effects, that would trigger then with "Read the Signs", the latter is after (ST.8 of) the test, so too late for RtS to avoid.
My goodness. I took a quick look at ArkhamDB, thankfully there are only a couple of locations like that (notably one in TFA!).
Thank you Daniel, I still struggle with timing questions and your video is super cool!
Happy to help!!!
Thank you for this. I thought I have the timing rules down, but I seem to have missed a lot (pun intended)
i need and appreciate these videos
Super helpful video. Thank you Daniel.
This has helped me out so much, thank you!
This was a very useful video. I would like to suggest for your next rules video the timing and interactions with Mystic/Guardian chaos bag manipulation. How cards like `Olive McBride`, `Custom Modifications`, `Grotesque Statue`, and `Favor of the Sun` to name a few. With only one of these abilities they are pretty straight forward, but as soon as you add in one or more of the others most people have an aneurysm.
Yes, great idea! I'll add that to the list.
As of TSK, this kinda of timing nonsense is also pretty important for any Rogue running both "I'll Take That" (triggers on "When you successfully investigate/evade" aka st.7) and a source of draw such as LCC (st.6), Pickpocketing (st.6) etc. with it being possible to play I'll Take That if you draw if from LCC. Unless I'm mistaken.
Oh yes, good interaction! But I believe "I'll take that!" is also Step 6, but before LCC (when comes before after). So you could attach I'll take that to a LCC in your hand, and then immediately activate LCC!
@@Quick_Learner My understanding is that the skill test is successful at step 6, but only at step 7 is the enemy evaded/location investigated. I can see how it might be read the other way, though, if it's the "successful" part that's important and not the "evaded/investigated" part.
My read is that it's the same wording as Scavenging, which is "after you successfully investigate", and that's definitely Step 6. I'll confirm on the Mythos Busters Discord, though. :)
I had to check if I still dislike many of the Survivor timings (I do by the way), but this helped quite a bit. Thanks!
Lol. :)
Loved watching this video! Any chance you'll do a rogue nonsense video with Haste / Double Double etc? I find that also equally confusing on whats fair game for what counts as actions across all the different cards that care about that kind of stuff.
Good idea!
Are you sure about the Quick Learner + Live and Learn ruling? It seems to be ruled for Drawing Thin that the difficulty remains the same on the second test with Live and Learn. So in your Stella example, after playing Live and Learn, the difficulty would be 4 again, not 2.
Yes, they've changed the ruling to how you describe. But at the time of this video, my example was correct ;)
to be more specific: Q: If i fail the first action and play Live and Learn does the penalty from Quick Learner apply to the new skill test? A: The failed skill test and the test from Live and Learn are part of the same action, and would have the +1 difficulty from Quick Learner. (September 2023)
previously the understanding was that actions and skill tests were coterminous, so when the first action's skill test was over, you played Live and Learn and it was no longer part of the first action.
Wait, then what about skills committed and other motifiers? I always read it as starting a brand new test, but if difficulty modifers carry over, what else does too?
No, just the difficulty carries over - you still resolve the effects of the test you took before, which includes discarding committed cards (ST.8). You'll have to commit cards and/or pay money for skill boosts anew.
@@Quick_Learner thank you
I already know all of this and still I got a headache from watching the vid
The true horror in Arkham Horror is the rules document
@@Quick_Learner jajajaj facts
I see that any skill card with "Innate" subtype resolves in step 7. Event cards with "Fortune" and "Talent" are resolving in step 6. With triggered actions on Asset cards its a bit problematic.
Traits on these cards have no mechanical effect on skill test timing.
13:05 I don't get why it falls into ST.7? Ice Pick says "If you succeed", why is not that ST.6? Also, given the When>If>After wording detailed earlier, wouldn't it trigger before Scavenging in case both of them were ST.6? I don't quite see that part.
The difference is that Scavenging, etc. are reaction abilities and have to be triggered as soon as the condition has been met, so they are Step 6. "If you succeed" is a template that denotes "results of the skill test" and as such always go to ST.7 along with everything else. When>If>After is a bit of a red herring because "If" pretty much never goes with reaction or forced abilities.
I love Stella, I run Carcosa with her and Jacqueline, and she made me try the next campaign on hard mode.
Great duo that certainly makes the game feel easier!
@@Quick_Learner Agreed. I was constantily checking if I wasn't cheating... because it felt like it
One thing that confuses me about skill tests is the difference between adding 'skill icons' to a test (is that committing?), and reading the text on the card. With former, does the card stay in the hand, or is it 'discarded'.
I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to - do you have any particular cards in mind for this issue?
@@Quick_Learner Sorry - I am a beginner and this question (apart from being unintelligible) unsuitable for your video here. I've resolved my query - thanks again for your time and I know this run through of timing issues will be really useful a little further down the line.
No problem! Happy to answer any questions.
Oh wow, thanks good to know.
But now I wonder which assets can I use and than kill during the skillcheck timing window and how does it resolve?
Let's say I play damning testimony and use Joey the Rat vigil to discard it in the fast timing window, how does it resolve and can I get it back with scavenging?
Yes! Good question -- if your card leaves plays mid test, as long as you paid the cost originally, the test still resolves as normal. The very basic Knife card is a good example, since discarding it is part of the cost anyways! You still of course resolve the fight action as printed even though the Knife is no longer in play.
So, for your example, indeed you can discard Damning Testimony with Joey the Rat, and then return it to your hand with Scavenging since Joey the Rat puts the card into the discard before Step 6 rolls around. This is a pretty common play with Old Keyring, too, since you can get some money back with Joey before Old Keyring discards itself!
@@Quick_Learner Ahh ofcourse okay but I wouldn't be able to discard an enemy as I can not spend evidence as it is already in the discard pile, right? :D
that's right, you can't spend ammo/charges/evidence/etc. from cards that aren't in play.
So, if Will Yorick is engaged with his signature weakness Graveyard Ghouls, can't he use his special ability when he kills them?
He fights. He has success. His card is written "After you defeat an enemy..."
So, according to this nonsense, "After you defeat an enemy happens after T.8 or during T.6"? When you defeat the Ghouls, are they still engaged with them?
Yes, he can. Defeating the enemy happens when you place the last point of damage on it. You defeat the enemy, it's no longer engaged with you, so Yorick can then play an asset from the discard. That's all Step 7. Graveyard Ghouls doesn't really interact with Yorick's ability except that in the event you're trying to fight multiple enemies, they demand your attention first (or just wait to use your ability when you kill them)
I would like to understand "Practice makes perfect" timing
Sure. In general you can only commit cards during ST.2. Practice Makes Perfect circumvents this and allows you to commit the card when you play the event, which can only be during the player windows before or after ST.2. This isn't totally obvious since PMP says "during a skill test", so it sounds like you could play it anytime, but the rules really only allow you to play things during player windows, except for things that have explicit timing like "after you take damage", etc.
@@Quick_Learner When I first read the card, i thought, "during a skill test", that means that it is Lucky but better! The only thing that made me think that it has to be played before drawing chaos token is would be the best card in the game.
Blinding Light trigger an Attack of Opportunity?
No, it is an Evade action. Check out my other video on Attacks of Opportunity!
Honestly, I only care about the timing window bs FFG loves in Netrunner. Arkham ain't against other people, I just let abilities go off if it makes any kind of sense.
This game's rules are insane and your videos are perfect. How is this only a 3.5 weight on BGG?