Hey @NocturnalFudj I would like to add another character to the list of potential meta-busters. That character being jigglypuff. She has a uniquely good matchup against Steve by exploiting his bad recovery and horrible double jump, a uniquely good matchup into Sonic by means of all of her aerials stuffing spin dash, lasting long enough to catch a desperate air dodge, and killing early enough to actually force Sonic to play the game. She unfortunately doesn’t have many unique tools to deal with Game & Watch, but she /can/ out space him with forward and back air. I hope you had a good time reading this mini rant and I wish you the best of days.
6:54 Sonic actually destroys cloud way more often than not. Cloud doesn't really have the tools to stop sonic from dominating neutral and subsequently the pace of the match, and sonic edgeguards the shit out of cloud's lacklustre recovery. Sparg0 is just THAT goated + has tons of experience with Sonix in particular, and even then he more often than not switches off Cloud when fighting him.
I don’t think it’s sonic but sonix… example, Sparg0at uses Aegis vs Ken and other sonic but vs Sonix… he needs to constantly keep switching characters or try different things because Sonix is just a god at adaptation
As a Cloud player I agree. I think Cloud's most exploitable flaw is not necessarily his recovery but his lack of options that are safe both on startup and on the ending of the move. A lot of other swordies have moves like Roy's down tilt (quick startup and low endlag) or a nair that is very active, so it can be both a rising and falling aerial at the same time. Cloud doesn't really have anything like that, so either the startup or ending of all of his moves will have a certain window of vulnerability that he has to commit to. Against most characters it's fine because he controls more space than other characters can burst into, but Sonic can easily stuff out or whiff punish Cloud's moves from halfway across the stage with his speed. Even his recovery is usually fine against most characters with his side b timing mixups, but Sonic's spring is just so low commitment and covers so much space that it'll gimp Cloud enough of the time.
I think Cloud has everything he needs, BUT he doesn't have a good way to snipe early stocks vs Sonic like Roy or Corrin. He has the option coverage necessary for the MU, but his raw bair isnt consistently taking stocks at 70% the way jair or nairbair is.
@@MD-se8ft I think it’s a bit difficult because the 2 most famous Sonic and Cloud players are rivals and sonix is just a master at the match up it hard… like maybe the number 2 cloud who is probably Kola vs the number 2Sonic being Ken but kola plays Roy, why he would go Cloud when he already has the winning match up with Roy… would never happen…
Few notes and corrections Gnw Up B is frame 3, but it’s invincible frame 5. MKLeo was the first person to put corrin on the big stage at a Mexican major
Gonna have to sharply disagree with your last take here. Richter/Simon have an atrocious disadvantage state, which (imo) would keep them out of the running for an anti-meta pick against these three characters. All 3 have absolutely dominating juggling and edgeguarding, and those are Belmont's kryptonite. This isn't even mentioning that one of Belmont's biggest overall flaws is a lack of killpower - meaning that even despite the advantages he'd have in neutral thanks to his range, those characters will get to live through many, MANY of his neutral wins and would only need one opening to take a stock or do enormous amounts of damage.
Flashback to when up b refused to kill riddles at 176 on the smashville platform (the set is Liam vs riddles at battle of bc 6 if you’re wondering) Also, would bucket not counter Belmont’s projectiles?
When the zoner character is actually weak at close-range. Why does Min-Min has insane boxing tools all while having longer normals than the Vampire Killers ?
@@mediocrity5693 bucket has a lot of value as a reflector, but since holy water is a weak multi-hit, belmonts actually don't really care whether bucket absorbs it. Even with 3 charges, bucket doesn't really kill belmont all that well
In terms of one final counterpick character, I'm going to say Shulk fits all the niches you'd want out of an anti-meta pick. He has a large disjoint, which helps against Steve and Game and Watch, and Monado arts give him some unique advantages. Speed gives Shulk the frame data to keep up with Sonic alongside his very solid (and very big) neutral attacks (Sonic's biggest problem imo is actually when characters have the frame data and KO power to keep up with him, which is why a lot of Sonic players consider Fox his worst matchup), Jump helps a lot against ledgetrapping sequences from Sonic and GnW (and can lead to some insane juggling KO options off the top of most legal stages), Shield lets him escape Game and Watch's nair strings and Steve's grounded combo game, Buster combined with his long range gives him a reliable way to deal with Steve's walls without worrying about getting punished for trying to do that (buster and down tilt/f tilt do a lot of work on even stone and iron walls to my knowledge). Smash also allows him to get kills insanely early on all 3 with a tilt or a fair, especially on Game and Watch. The only issue I can see is that Sonic can play insanely campy and camp out speed and jump, but into the other two I'd say he's a solid option.
everyone has known this for a long time but Shulk sucks ass to play because he's so boring compared to others. Spamming differently timed aerials is basically his entire game plan because he just has nothing else in his kit to use. That's why there aren't many top reps out there pushing his meta.
@@bcon1308 to be fair, I feel like Cloud and Corrin do also have to spam aerials a lot, especially Corrin. I understand the argument though, outside of Monado arts and Air Slash, Shulk's specials suck ass, whereas Cloud's and Corrin's don't.
@@purplecoffinman8510 Cloud at least has Blade Beam and his variations of Limit but you're right though. Corrin is pretty similar to Shulk in a lot of ways now that I think about it. Probably why her meta barely moved for a long time also.
19:21 if the Belmonts had just one more mobility tool/mix up on the stage to line up their crazy long tills and smash attacks they’d go way higher on the tier list. It’s always felt wrong to me that their down air doesn’t cancel into down tilt. Those moves feel like they were designed as a burst option and the devs just forgot to put it in.
I mean, they would benefit from a mobility mix up (like if you could always jump from dair) but I feel like the problem with them isn't the recovery, or the movement, it's more so that they can't kill unless you hit a smash attack or a clip which is really hard since you can SDI really easily out of holy water or scape his confirms. On paper they should win against Steve and G&W but since they can't kill they are gonna need to win neutral a lot more times than both characters. He does have a decent MU against them, he either goes even or loses slightly to both characters, they are not the problem, the problem is getting to them in the first place (Also Sonic destroys them)
I first watched your channel because I saw a smash ultimate video, and it happened to be made by a guy called fudj. I’m now watching this because I saw a fudj video, and it happened to be about smash ultimate. Keep making great stuff man I’ll watch no matter what.
Cloud's matchup against Steve is even or slightly Cloud favored, mainly because Cloud has great tools to deal with blocks. I wouldn't really say Steve lacks range, while his moves aren't as disjointed as Clouds he still has disjoints and minecart is also a projectile. Game and Watch loses to sword characters, not because they don't rely on combos but because Game and Watch, like Mario, doesn't have the blinding speed of Fox or Sheik, or real disjoints of their own to approach a sword character. Cloud loses to Sonic, in fact most of the time Spargo faces Sonix he uses a secondary like Aegis or more recently Roy. Cloud's frame data just doesn't make him a good pick against Sonic. ZSS does beat Game and Watch, but I don't think she's overall an anti meta character. It's just that nobody knows the matchup because Marss is really the only top level ZSS. There are other good ZSS players, but nobody anywhere near Marss. ZSS is more of a matchup check, and she's very hard to play so she wouldn't make a good secondary. She also doesn't get much off of single interactions. Honestly, Snake is probably a better anti meta pick than the Belmonts, except against Game and Watch but again, G&W loses to almost every sword character.
Hello friends! I play game and watch AND snake and i can tell you snake doesn't lose super hard to game and watch and it can potentially even be even. Snake has the tools to escape game and watch combos and not be ledge trapped by bacon. The only thing game and watch really has is bucket but a good snake knows how to play without bombs because snake has the framedata and damage output to deal with game and watch not to mention killing him VERY early with a downtilt. Furthermore it's easy to get stickys on GNW because of how defensive he plays waiting for you to pull a bomb. Then back throw c4 killing at 70 or so. One more thing, charizard is a fantastic counter to game and watch, if charizard isn't even, hes winning. The multiple jumps to escape up airs and super armor up b to tank thru bacon. Forward tilt alone keeps game and watch away because it can act as a sword
Watched Marss' reaction to this so dropping by to watch/comment and show some love. Pretty solid analysis overall, tho I think that Belmont theory is very optimistic lol. I love watching Dom and Squidplumber but as you pointed out losing neutral a single time is basically guaranteed stock loss. My dark horse counterpick would be the Pits. I think they have a lot of the necessary tools to contend with the BS of the meta relevant trio with the added benefit of having a reflector which is nice for Steve.
As a guy who only play SSBU when i see a close friend of mine, is wild to see my favorite character goes from bottom tier to the 3° best and people hate it.
Maybe Bayonetta might deserve an honorable mention? She might go hit for hit with the top 3, has a frame 1 escape option and a fucked up counter that swings advantage in her favour when shit like minecart or anvil is thrown at her
I'm sorry but, despite the fact that I really enjoy this video's content and the quality is clearly great, there's clearly a LOT of misinformation. - 3:32 I don't see how Cloud is a good response to Sonic? Sparg0 himself said he loses the matchup, which is why started using Aegis and Corrin - 4:09 his flaw is not his range. Depite not being able to fight to the spacings of the like of Cloud, Sephiroth, MinMin, he still outranges most of all short-ranged brawlers in the game. His true flaws are his lackluster mobility, both horizontally and vertically, as well as his extreme dependancy on materials: if he runs out, he becomes incredibly lackluster. - 4:16 did you forget about his other projectile, Minecart? - 4:38 steve has planking, block recovery/stalling, ledgejump minecart to get out of the corner/ledge. How is this even REMOTELY comparable to Samus's/ROB's ledgedrop fair? - 4:52 I feel like you're misinterpreting what makes Cloud strong against Steve. First of all, Cloud doesn't have an absurd ledgetrap, it's relatively average. What he has, though, is an INCREDIBLE corner pressure. That plus his range are good options vs Steve, but it doesn't end up there: he outranges him, can go faster than him, is one of the few characters that can contest Steve's shield AND Steve's shield pressure, while also having the extra advantage of charging limit whenever he hits blocks or the crafting table. His kit is also excellent at dealing with Minecart. If it was just a matter of range, Steve would lose to most long ranged fighers in the game, but the only ones that actually give him some kind of trouble are Cloud, MinMin, Aegis and sometimes Corrin. - 5:51 of the many strenghts Spindash has, being unreactable is NOT one of them. The move takes a minimum of 17 frames to start, and the starting hop is much slower than the move's successive speed. - 5:58 is absolutely is a match for big swords though... Sonic struggles with characters that can limit his movement or can match his speed and outdamage him. Pikachu, Gunner, Fox, Roy, Aegis, Samus are all characters that have storically made Sonix's life either more difficult or straight up challenging. Corrin is a particular example because, despite not being able to keep up with his speed, she controls the zone around her so well and kills so early that Sonic has to be extra precise to pull off the game. I've never heard a Sonic player say they struggle with Cloud, Lucina, Sephiroth, MinMin etc. - 6:03 I'll admit I haven't play Sm4sh competetively, so this might be mistaken, but didn't Sonic mostly struggle with a mostly zoners, speedsters and Bayo/Cloud? That would make this consistent with his current state in Ultimate. He lost to those two because they were incredibly overtunes, not necessarily because their archetype dealt with his better. He DEFINITELY didn't lose to Marth. - 6:57, again, a character being outranged by swords doesn't mean they have poor range. GnW outranges most brawlers in the game while being outranged by proper disjoing, exactly like Steve. He is a middleway man, which makes him NOT stubby at all. - 7:25 it's not, because EWGF exists. - 7:58 this is just a BLATANT lie. Here is a list of characters that have at least one true combo that consists in 3 or more hits: Banjo, Bayo, Jr, Falco, Chrom, Cloud, Corrin, Diddy, Peach, DHD, Falco, Fox, Greninja, ICs, Incineroar, Isabelle, Puff, Joker, Kazuya, Ken, Kirby, Lucario, Lucas, Luigi, Mario, MK, Brawler, GnW, Mythra, Ness, Olimar, Palu, Peach, Pichu, Pikachu, Pit, Squirtle, ROB, Robin, Rosa, Roy, Ryu, Samus, Seph, Sheik, Shulk, Snake, Sonic, Sora, Steve, Terry, Wario, WFT, Wolf, Yoshi, Yink. And I might be missing some. GnW's upB is not even the best combo breaker, becuase it's invincible frame 5 and its startup is the exact same as the standard airdodge, frame 3. If a GnW can upB mid combo, that means the combo was not true or that the player messed up the timing, and it DEFINITELY doesn't mean there aren't true combos in this game. Bayo, Lucina, Marth, Mac, Luigi, PT, Yoshi, Snake, Ken, Ryu and DHD all have better combo breakers, and even then they still suffer true combos. Hell, some characters have frame 2 airdodges, which makes combos against them VERY hard. You could have mentioned how Sonic's airdodge is frame 2 and thus a great escape option, but instead decided to focus on GnW's upB which will most of the time trade with the combo (which is something that he DOESN'T want to do, because of his weight) and use this argument to say that Ultimate's combos are mostly fake? - 8:45 GnW has lost to swords, but NOT because of how powerful their hits are. Otherwise, why wouldn't you say he lost to super heavyweight, who are leagues stronger than swordies? Especially because his upB in Brawl and Sm4sh is a terrible combo breaker move, so it's not like he couldn't get combo'd hard. Why would he lose mostly to strong single hits if he didn't have a good combo breaker move as he does in Ult? GnW always struggled against MOBILITY and RANGE, because he's slow and cannot outrange proper swords. This is still true to some degree, but in Ultimate his advantage state is so incredible that his weakness to swords is much milder than before: what he struggles against is high mobility and characters that can skip his incredible advantage, like Sonic, Rosalina, Yoshi, ZSS. You don't even need to believe me, you can just check Miya's MU chart: x.com/manmamiya13/status/1788199800871248252 Cloud is a GOOD choice vs GnW, but he's not a hard counter to him at all. - 10:55 you were actually saying pretty decent stuff about Corrin, until you decided to say she has a worse ledgetrap than Cloud... how can a character with such a STRONG ledge threatening tool be worse that Cloud? - 13:46 there is absolutely no world where Pichu and Olimar can be considered more toxic than Steve. Not only they started losing more and more even before their nerfs because of how much counterplay they have, but they also didn't have NEARLY as much polirization as he does. - 16:39 I can somehow agree with the points you made (even though you still say a lot of stuff I already addressed as wrong), but I don't understand this fixation with ZSS's nerfs. Sure, they hit, but she started losing because the meta became harder and harder for her to thrive in, since she has to be very precise and is basically always outdamaged by everyone else while also being very fragile. For your last point: yeah I'm sorry but there's no way Belmont is a good counterpick to those 3 and it basically boils down to everything I addressed until now. Why are you so focused on this apparent "lack of range" weakness? And even if it wasn't true, why not go for MinMin, who's an incredbly better character? Sephiroth? Byleth? Shulk? Overall, I think there's a poor understanding of the meta, the characters and what actually makes them strong/weak. Again, I like the video's quality, but the information is unfortunately poor.
Curious to hear people’s thought on Palutena being anti-meta? From what I saw mentioned about cloud at least, her up air is absolute bullshit and she can ledgetrap and edge guard pretty well. As everyone complains about her aerials do a decent amount of damage and can be stringed together, down throw is usable (I say usable because you can di so the Palu can’t follow up at some percentages), she has no issue killing, also has usable projectiles. More comparison to cloud being that she, like cloud, is a fundies character. Now I’m a biased Palutena main and I always hear people complain about her but never see her making any big moves consistently since Nairo (whom I no longer support) years ago. So if you disagree. Or agree, I’d love to hear your thoughts.
I play game and watch and can tell you that that mu is even or so but I can't say much about her versus sonic. Wouldn't a character of her stats be put thru a blender versus steve?
Couple notes: Steve’s biggest fault as a character isn’t his range (which honestly isn’t very much of a problem, back-air is huge, minecart controls insane space) it’s his poor arial mobility, which is among the lowest in the game. It’s why characters like joker + zss who don’t have big disjoints, don’t feel it because they use mobility to control space and win interactions. I thought cloud was considered pretty universally considered high tier? (Could be wrong) Belmonts struggle way too much with juggling + offstage to be a viable pick against such monsters offstage (Steve has block, sonic has spring, and GW has incredible recovery for edge guarding + up-b) Great video and I loved the premise, just some minor gripes!
I thought the mystery pick was building up to Luigi, cuz as many flaws as that character has it doesn't even matter when your game plan is the exact same no matter the matchup or who has an advantage.
Also shoutout to corrin side b being INSANELY good. It’s a killing dash attack but you can suddenly decide that if the dash attack whiffed, you can actually not do the dash attack at all and instead jump or cancel or go the other direction. And it also reaches its max burst distance instantly. And it kills at 90 at ledge. And it can be used as an aerial diagonal burst options. Best burst option in the game imo
Although they aren't anti meta, Aegis is definitely one of the best picks against these three. Yes, they have a clear lose condition, but at worst, she goes even with all of Steve, Sonic, and G&W, and at best (I'm one of the people who is on the more optimistic side), they beat all of them 55/45. Not a stomp of a matchup like Kazuya against Roy, but a even or winning matchup is an even or winning matchup
I think toon link could do good. He can kill game and watch really early and use his dijoints to destroy steve blocks and always having a bomb in hand messes up a lot of sonic combos
the reason why top players simply don’t swap to top tiers is not just because of willpower. i am a firm believer that every character matches an archetype for a playee, and these two puzzle pieces need to connect. tweek, who switches around characters a lot, talks about this. his cloud and aegis did not work out in this game
I don't know if your knowledge and experience is substantial enough to justify making a entire video on it, but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on Melee. Design, characters, mechanics, how it holds up compared to other Smash games... stuff like that.
There's not much to uncover. Melee has better risk-reward curves and it's unique exploits (cc and movement) give every character some fundamental tools to deal with other characters. You very rarely have games like Tweak vs Acola or Kola vs Sonix where players just give up mid game because their character's gimmick doesn't match well into their opponents.
@@traycarrotI dont wanna be that guy but you said "every character" and thats paintfully untrue, theres more top tiers in Ultimate than there are viable characters in Melee. (I like melee too but lets mot act like its a balanced fighter lol)
@@quarium5681 Point me to where I said Melee was more balanced. Ultimate has more balance in the fact that "every" character has some singularly broken trait that they live or die on. That doesn't particularly make it more enjoyable as a spectator (although I find it fucking hilarious and fun) to watch Scissors run into Rock. Melee has universal mechanics that help bridge the gap, although "every" character doesn't use them as effectively. DK and Falcon use CC better than anyone. Marth and Shiek abuse the ledge mechanics better than anyone. Luigi and ICs abuse wavedash better than anyone. There are better characters, but these pretty basic mechanics allow for Scissors to have _some_ play against others. Yes, the game with nearly 100 characters has more characters at each tier than the one with 25 😬
Hey @treycuret, I imagine most people watching this video are somehow invested in at least one of Smash's competitive scenes. Furthermore I imagine they can make those observations regarding differences in mechanics and character matchups between Ultimate and Melee. That being said, my intention was not to survey the general populace; I was just curious about Fudj's perspective, that's all. It's not because I want to be spoonfed an opinion on competitive Melee (I think it's pretty fun!); it's because Fudj is notorious for his "The Competitive Failings of Smash Ultimate" and other videos (fairly) critiquing competitive Ultimate. I always wonder, based on his previous videos, what positive/neutral/negative things he would have to say about Melee's design.
@@Phunlyfe That would be interesting, I'd love to hear Fudj's perspective. I doubt he'd offer much if he was a member of the general populace; his Ultimate videos did so well imo primarily bc he was so invested in Sm4sh and Ultimate's competitive scene. There's really not much unique to say for an outsider looking in imo.
I don’t think cloud is anti meta, i think sparg0 is anti meta 😂, same with all other characters with players like shadic or marss, other than those particular players those characters don’t perform “anti meta” at all, because you have to be so much better than your opponent to win, on normal circunstances at even player level, a cloud has little to do against a sonic, or ab ZSS against a steve, and so on
It’s so funny hearing about how Cloud (mainly through Sparg0’s usage of him) has a good matchup vs Sonic and then Sparg0 says that Sonic is Cloud’s second worst matchup (and he won’t argue if you think it IS his worst).
The top 2 characters being Steve and Sonic with their unfun playstyle is what made me stop playing or watching Smash Ultimate. Game and Watch is less unfun to play against, but it is still frustrating in ultimate's environment with the rarity of true combos that don't need frame precision to pull off. I still play and watch Melee and Brawl mods (P+ and B-), but ultimate just has too many issues competitively right now.
I agree. I may be biased as a day one game and watch fan but game and watch is just a too well rounded and defensive character but he isn't breaking the games physics down for his own abuse or full screen burst movement tools to slow down a pace of a game because he wants to be in your face. Always. And honestly he is over rated...
Steve has crazy crazy stuff tho and techs that can send him flying. He doesn't really lose ANY MUs because of all the cheese he has. But, there are a couple characters that can intimidate them yes. But sonic also debatably loses to like no one. Gnw has a bad mu or two
@@aidenvega6306 true but the characters that do well can deal with these techs, and/or limit steve from getting access, as most of the techs require resources and mining
@@maxpogfrog yeah theres definitely a good handful of them that can deal with a lot of his shenanigans. Corrin, cloud, zss, shulk, aegis, hero, sephiroth, sonic, pt all come to mind. But every time i think this stuff some steve shows me 14 infinites they can do to that specific character and tell me IM crazy
One thing you didn't mention about cloud is that, he's insanely fast for a sword character. He's pretty much tied with Roy and is only beat by mythra. Unlike mythra, he gets insanely good kill options with that speed and range. So he can basically keep sonic and Steve under constant pressure in the corners. It's the thing I hate the most about him given I play ZSS. He can kind of just run at a lot of characters, throw out a lot of really safe and highly punishing options, and do pretty well
sparg0 very specifically plays characters like aegis, corrin, and even roy because he does not believe that cloud does well in the matchup! otherwise, great video (:
Awesome video. I do disagree with some things but still good. As for cloud with Sonic, Spargo mentioned in the lights out podcast he is gonna pull out the roy for Sonic cause he believes in that character for the match up. I find it weird that GnW players struggle against ZSS I always thought of the matchup even if anything. I really think it is just Marss than it is ZSS, it is a similar thing as cloud where if you have good fundamentals you are able to hit them where it really matters to close out the stock. Belmont shoutout is awesome to hear. I was thinking no top player would ever pull them out but then I remembered Riddles actually mained them. Riddles does struggle with those 3 characters, maybe it is time for him to hone the Belmonts once more. Lastly, Corrin is a really good chsracter. They don't have anything in particular that is just OP just that everything in their kit except their movement stats are above average, like the range, combos, framedata, and kill power. She is just boring so I think why a lot of people don't choose to play her like the other top 3.
I feel like whenever I play Corrin, I feel like I'm losing because I've barely done anything that felt valuable and then I look at the stock count and I'm up 2. Such an unrewarding character, zero positive feedback, honestly think that's a big part of why it took this long for her to be explored
@@elitecombine5373One unique aspect of Corrin that not many people talk about. She has the fastest dash shield in the game. So she basically can approach with low risk compare to other characters. The other thing to note. People used to think Corrin didn't have a good OOS option. But that's actually not true. Corrin didn't have an easy good OOS option. But the thing is a lot of top Corrin realize. I think Neo the one who start it. But basically. If you footstool with Corrin into Dair. You basically now have frame 4 OOS option that put your opponent in tech chase situation or guarantee pin depends on percent.
Im sorry but the take on cloud vs sonic was way off. Cloud absolutely loses that mu and Id argue its easily one of his worst. Sonic can dance around cloud with his speed (clouds biggest weakness is chars that out speed him, look at joker, mythra and shiek) And sonic can one touch him at the ledge. Also look atvthe amount of times spargo has switched chars vs sonic, hes on his 4th character!!!! Spargo never has to do that lol
Absolutely agree, and sonic does not struggle with swords at all lol. He is the counter to swords because he's the god of whiff punishing, thus why you mentioned Sparg0 doesnt even go cloud against him anymore (roy is less even of a swordie and more of a fighter, which is why he does better with him). Sonic only potentially loses to characters that can keep up with him / out camp him like fox or pika, or even with characters like zss. Thought I was losing my mind, glad someone else agrees lol
Pokemon trainer's design in smash ultimate flawlessly counters steve game and watch and sonic especially because of the ivysaur's razor leaf and disjointed aireals vaporizes blocks and dominates neutral squirtle can rushdown and combo the shit out of steve and Charizard has a better recovery of the three his tilts and aireals can phase through blocks and kill steve at early percents Squirtle can keep up with sonic and combo him for days ivysaur just straight up negates spin dash via disjoints up air down air and specials and Charizard can live longer than Sonic the hedgehog Same shit on the pkt vs g&w but ivysaur is more dominant
I TOTALLY AGREE 100000% except one thing. As a game and watch player, ill tell you a secret. Charizard ruins gnw. His weight and range and special moves armor do everything you need in the mu. I can personally say ivy is VERY easy to kill
Despite not knowing too much about Smash, it's always engaging to watch your videos surrounding it! Hope everything with Palette Swap turns out well too :)
I actually just picked up the mystery character as a pocket for the reasons you said just a few days ago. Going to get revenge on the Steve that edged my Bowser out of getting top 8 at my local >:)
I wouldn’t say Cloud is anti meta other than being one of maybe four characters that solidly beat Steve (and so people should start picking him up to counterpick Steve if they want to win), Cloud is just a extremely good and overtuned and so most match ups swordies lose to like Diddy Kong, Pikachu and Joker are even, I would say Cloud losing to Sonic, Aegis and MinMin will mean he can actually never be solo mained in this meta. To me the anti meta characters are Corrin, Bayo, ROB, Snake and Samus since they can do their thing against any top tier
Excluding his win over Sonix at Supernova Sparg0 has actually lost their three last encounters (won in Winners final and Lost grand finals in the Coinbox IRL) probably because he tried corrin a couple times and Sonix becoming way better
On paper, I always thought Cloud should do good against Sonic as well. I don't think it's a bad opinion, when it comes to strong characters especially people tend to overcomplicate things. Let's see what these two say in a few more years.
hear me out, lucas. recently we found a true universal zero to death using footstool djcz, and even though its pretty hard rn (way harder than ness's infinite) it can be done oos and from a dtilt at low percents or a regular djcz, also just no one really knows what to do against him
Your explanations of how cloud fares against the 3 top tiers feels a little convoluted. Like I think a similar explanation of that depth could be made for any mid tier and the three top tiesr.
I think you downplay Corrin ledge trap there. Not only Corrin ledge trap are better than Cloud. She might be top 10 ledge trapper in the game. Pin alone makes her ledge trap game insanely good!!!!
I agree with Cloud but Cloud doesn't beat all 3 like you said. In fact Sparg0 and many other Clouds think they lose to Sonic due to the speed of the char being hard to space out and Sonic edgeguarding tf outta Cloud for the most part. I also dunno about the Belmont pick LOL, against Steve he's alright but Sonic and Game and Watch realistically just have to throw him offstage once and that's it due to how good their edgeguarding is. But yeah other than that I agree 😎
I can’t say for sure if the Belmonts Do well against sonic or game and watch but as Steve main yes the Belmonts do well against Steve The only reason it’s probably slain Steve’s favor is the Belmonts garage recovery
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Hey @NocturnalFudj
I would like to add another character to the list of potential meta-busters. That character being jigglypuff. She has a uniquely good matchup against Steve by exploiting his bad recovery and horrible double jump, a uniquely good matchup into Sonic by means of all of her aerials stuffing spin dash, lasting long enough to catch a desperate air dodge, and killing early enough to actually force Sonic to play the game. She unfortunately doesn’t have many unique tools to deal with Game & Watch, but she /can/ out space him with forward and back air. I hope you had a good time reading this mini rant and I wish you the best of days.
@@elijahhurd5642 Her matchup against Steve is decent however she dieds at 40 from back air. One must imagine Jigglypuff players happy
It is funny how in this Nintendo fighting game, the only Nintendo character that is top tier is their oldest character ever.
Peach left the chat
Diddy kong & fox left the chat
@hoi7173 yeah i know. Whats your point?
I love DK
If you faught against game and watch nothing is funny.
You remind me of my nephew. He got addicted to galaxy gas and can no longert speak
Heartwarming…
Wtf lmao
LEAVE THEM ALONE THEYRE BRITISH 😡😡😡
Haha chill, steve-O is looking pretty good these days and nobody did more gas then that guy did. I hope your nephew gets well
@@brogoylehello lea cheese acolyte
6:54 Sonic actually destroys cloud way more often than not. Cloud doesn't really have the tools to stop sonic from dominating neutral and subsequently the pace of the match, and sonic edgeguards the shit out of cloud's lacklustre recovery. Sparg0 is just THAT goated + has tons of experience with Sonix in particular, and even then he more often than not switches off Cloud when fighting him.
I don’t think it’s sonic but sonix… example, Sparg0at uses Aegis vs Ken and other sonic but vs Sonix… he needs to constantly keep switching characters or try different things because Sonix is just a god at adaptation
As a Cloud player I agree. I think Cloud's most exploitable flaw is not necessarily his recovery but his lack of options that are safe both on startup and on the ending of the move. A lot of other swordies have moves like Roy's down tilt (quick startup and low endlag) or a nair that is very active, so it can be both a rising and falling aerial at the same time. Cloud doesn't really have anything like that, so either the startup or ending of all of his moves will have a certain window of vulnerability that he has to commit to. Against most characters it's fine because he controls more space than other characters can burst into, but Sonic can easily stuff out or whiff punish Cloud's moves from halfway across the stage with his speed. Even his recovery is usually fine against most characters with his side b timing mixups, but Sonic's spring is just so low commitment and covers so much space that it'll gimp Cloud enough of the time.
I think Cloud has everything he needs, BUT he doesn't have a good way to snipe early stocks vs Sonic like Roy or Corrin. He has the option coverage necessary for the MU, but his raw bair isnt consistently taking stocks at 70% the way jair or nairbair is.
Sonic doesnt destroy cloud, its even at best and slightly winning for sonic at worst. Its good to separate the player from the character.
@@MD-se8ft I think it’s a bit difficult because the 2 most famous Sonic and Cloud players are rivals and sonix is just a master at the match up it hard… like maybe the number 2 cloud who is probably Kola vs the number 2Sonic being Ken but kola plays Roy, why he would go Cloud when he already has the winning match up with Roy… would never happen…
'sonix could beat god if the timer was set at 8 minutes' oh my god 1:26
Few notes and corrections
Gnw Up B is frame 3, but it’s invincible frame 5.
MKLeo was the first person to put corrin on the big stage at a Mexican major
Gonna have to sharply disagree with your last take here.
Richter/Simon have an atrocious disadvantage state, which (imo) would keep them out of the running for an anti-meta pick against these three characters. All 3 have absolutely dominating juggling and edgeguarding, and those are Belmont's kryptonite. This isn't even mentioning that one of Belmont's biggest overall flaws is a lack of killpower - meaning that even despite the advantages he'd have in neutral thanks to his range, those characters will get to live through many, MANY of his neutral wins and would only need one opening to take a stock or do enormous amounts of damage.
Flashback to when up b refused to kill riddles at 176 on the smashville platform (the set is Liam vs riddles at battle of bc 6 if you’re wondering)
Also, would bucket not counter Belmont’s projectiles?
@@mediocrity5693Bucket would reflect Axe and Cross. Then absorb Holy Water after it lands. Otherwise he can just reflect Holy Water too.
When the zoner character is actually weak at close-range.
Why does Min-Min has insane boxing tools all while having longer normals than the Vampire Killers ?
@@vivelespatat2670 Because one is DLC and the other is not 🙃
@@mediocrity5693 bucket has a lot of value as a reflector, but since holy water is a weak multi-hit, belmonts actually don't really care whether bucket absorbs it. Even with 3 charges, bucket doesn't really kill belmont all that well
I think sonix is right, he could beat got on an 8 minute rule set, he just has to make sure it isn't in grand finals
Ooof 😶
In terms of one final counterpick character, I'm going to say Shulk fits all the niches you'd want out of an anti-meta pick. He has a large disjoint, which helps against Steve and Game and Watch, and Monado arts give him some unique advantages. Speed gives Shulk the frame data to keep up with Sonic alongside his very solid (and very big) neutral attacks (Sonic's biggest problem imo is actually when characters have the frame data and KO power to keep up with him, which is why a lot of Sonic players consider Fox his worst matchup), Jump helps a lot against ledgetrapping sequences from Sonic and GnW (and can lead to some insane juggling KO options off the top of most legal stages), Shield lets him escape Game and Watch's nair strings and Steve's grounded combo game, Buster combined with his long range gives him a reliable way to deal with Steve's walls without worrying about getting punished for trying to do that (buster and down tilt/f tilt do a lot of work on even stone and iron walls to my knowledge). Smash also allows him to get kills insanely early on all 3 with a tilt or a fair, especially on Game and Watch. The only issue I can see is that Sonic can play insanely campy and camp out speed and jump, but into the other two I'd say he's a solid option.
everyone has known this for a long time but Shulk sucks ass to play because he's so boring compared to others. Spamming differently timed aerials is basically his entire game plan because he just has nothing else in his kit to use. That's why there aren't many top reps out there pushing his meta.
@@bcon1308 to be fair, I feel like Cloud and Corrin do also have to spam aerials a lot, especially Corrin. I understand the argument though, outside of Monado arts and Air Slash, Shulk's specials suck ass, whereas Cloud's and Corrin's don't.
@@purplecoffinman8510 Cloud at least has Blade Beam and his variations of Limit but you're right though. Corrin is pretty similar to Shulk in a lot of ways now that I think about it. Probably why her meta barely moved for a long time also.
19:21 if the Belmonts had just one more mobility tool/mix up on the stage to line up their crazy long tills and smash attacks they’d go way higher on the tier list. It’s always felt wrong to me that their down air doesn’t cancel into down tilt. Those moves feel like they were designed as a burst option and the devs just forgot to put it in.
I mean, they would benefit from a mobility mix up (like if you could always jump from dair) but I feel like the problem with them isn't the recovery, or the movement, it's more so that they can't kill unless you hit a smash attack or a clip which is really hard since you can SDI really easily out of holy water or scape his confirms.
On paper they should win against Steve and G&W but since they can't kill they are gonna need to win neutral a lot more times than both characters.
He does have a decent MU against them, he either goes even or loses slightly to both characters, they are not the problem, the problem is getting to them in the first place
(Also Sonic destroys them)
Thank god for Spargo
Man almost singlehandedly keeping the scene afloat on his shoulders
I first watched your channel because I saw a smash ultimate video, and it happened to be made by a guy called fudj. I’m now watching this because I saw a fudj video, and it happened to be about smash ultimate. Keep making great stuff man I’ll watch no matter what.
Cloud's matchup against Steve is even or slightly Cloud favored, mainly because Cloud has great tools to deal with blocks. I wouldn't really say Steve lacks range, while his moves aren't as disjointed as Clouds he still has disjoints and minecart is also a projectile. Game and Watch loses to sword characters, not because they don't rely on combos but because Game and Watch, like Mario, doesn't have the blinding speed of Fox or Sheik, or real disjoints of their own to approach a sword character. Cloud loses to Sonic, in fact most of the time Spargo faces Sonix he uses a secondary like Aegis or more recently Roy. Cloud's frame data just doesn't make him a good pick against Sonic. ZSS does beat Game and Watch, but I don't think she's overall an anti meta character. It's just that nobody knows the matchup because Marss is really the only top level ZSS. There are other good ZSS players, but nobody anywhere near Marss. ZSS is more of a matchup check, and she's very hard to play so she wouldn't make a good secondary. She also doesn't get much off of single interactions. Honestly, Snake is probably a better anti meta pick than the Belmonts, except against Game and Watch but again, G&W loses to almost every sword character.
I appreciate this
Pt can counter steve
Hello friends! I play game and watch AND snake and i can tell you snake doesn't lose super hard to game and watch and it can potentially even be even. Snake has the tools to escape game and watch combos and not be ledge trapped by bacon. The only thing game and watch really has is bucket but a good snake knows how to play without bombs because snake has the framedata and damage output to deal with game and watch not to mention killing him VERY early with a downtilt. Furthermore it's easy to get stickys on GNW because of how defensive he plays waiting for you to pull a bomb. Then back throw c4 killing at 70 or so. One more thing, charizard is a fantastic counter to game and watch, if charizard isn't even, hes winning. The multiple jumps to escape up airs and super armor up b to tank thru bacon. Forward tilt alone keeps game and watch away because it can act as a sword
why is your comedy always on point? That leatherface joke got me good.
Being a comedy writer probably helps!
Spargo didn’t come out of nowhere, he had stupendous results on wifi during the COVID era
Lowkey think olimar should get a mention
That Shuton double win over Sonix was epic.
Olimar also wins against Steve I think
Watched Marss' reaction to this so dropping by to watch/comment and show some love. Pretty solid analysis overall, tho I think that Belmont theory is very optimistic lol. I love watching Dom and Squidplumber but as you pointed out losing neutral a single time is basically guaranteed stock loss. My dark horse counterpick would be the Pits. I think they have a lot of the necessary tools to contend with the BS of the meta relevant trio with the added benefit of having a reflector which is nice for Steve.
One of the better analytic smash videos I've seen recently! Please make more!
As a guy who only play SSBU when i see a close friend of mine, is wild to see my favorite character goes from bottom tier to the 3° best and people hate it.
LMAO A FELLOW GAME AND WATCH VETERAN
I think Ridley has potential to do fairly good against them too. Big boy aerials and disjointed tilts, good edgeguarding, great ledge trapping.
Yes I had the same thought. But one up tilt from Steve and it is over
He’s too BIG
You GOTTA do more of these 🔥
Underrated channel
Maybe Bayonetta might deserve an honorable mention? She might go hit for hit with the top 3, has a frame 1 escape option and a fucked up counter that swings advantage in her favour when shit like minecart or anvil is thrown at her
I'm sorry but, despite the fact that I really enjoy this video's content and the quality is clearly great, there's clearly a LOT of misinformation.
- 3:32 I don't see how Cloud is a good response to Sonic? Sparg0 himself said he loses the matchup, which is why started using Aegis and Corrin
- 4:09 his flaw is not his range. Depite not being able to fight to the spacings of the like of Cloud, Sephiroth, MinMin, he still outranges most of all short-ranged brawlers in the game. His true flaws are his lackluster mobility, both horizontally and vertically, as well as his extreme dependancy on materials: if he runs out, he becomes incredibly lackluster.
- 4:16 did you forget about his other projectile, Minecart?
- 4:38 steve has planking, block recovery/stalling, ledgejump minecart to get out of the corner/ledge. How is this even REMOTELY comparable to Samus's/ROB's ledgedrop fair?
- 4:52 I feel like you're misinterpreting what makes Cloud strong against Steve. First of all, Cloud doesn't have an absurd ledgetrap, it's relatively average. What he has, though, is an INCREDIBLE corner pressure. That plus his range are good options vs Steve, but it doesn't end up there: he outranges him, can go faster than him, is one of the few characters that can contest Steve's shield AND Steve's shield pressure, while also having the extra advantage of charging limit whenever he hits blocks or the crafting table. His kit is also excellent at dealing with Minecart. If it was just a matter of range, Steve would lose to most long ranged fighers in the game, but the only ones that actually give him some kind of trouble are Cloud, MinMin, Aegis and sometimes Corrin.
- 5:51 of the many strenghts Spindash has, being unreactable is NOT one of them. The move takes a minimum of 17 frames to start, and the starting hop is much slower than the move's successive speed.
- 5:58 is absolutely is a match for big swords though... Sonic struggles with characters that can limit his movement or can match his speed and outdamage him. Pikachu, Gunner, Fox, Roy, Aegis, Samus are all characters that have storically made Sonix's life either more difficult or straight up challenging. Corrin is a particular example because, despite not being able to keep up with his speed, she controls the zone around her so well and kills so early that Sonic has to be extra precise to pull off the game. I've never heard a Sonic player say they struggle with Cloud, Lucina, Sephiroth, MinMin etc.
- 6:03 I'll admit I haven't play Sm4sh competetively, so this might be mistaken, but didn't Sonic mostly struggle with a mostly zoners, speedsters and Bayo/Cloud? That would make this consistent with his current state in Ultimate. He lost to those two because they were incredibly overtunes, not necessarily because their archetype dealt with his better. He DEFINITELY didn't lose to Marth.
- 6:57, again, a character being outranged by swords doesn't mean they have poor range. GnW outranges most brawlers in the game while being outranged by proper disjoing, exactly like Steve. He is a middleway man, which makes him NOT stubby at all.
- 7:25 it's not, because EWGF exists.
- 7:58 this is just a BLATANT lie. Here is a list of characters that have at least one true combo that consists in 3 or more hits: Banjo, Bayo, Jr, Falco, Chrom, Cloud, Corrin, Diddy, Peach, DHD, Falco, Fox, Greninja, ICs, Incineroar, Isabelle, Puff, Joker, Kazuya, Ken, Kirby, Lucario, Lucas, Luigi, Mario, MK, Brawler, GnW, Mythra, Ness, Olimar, Palu, Peach, Pichu, Pikachu, Pit, Squirtle, ROB, Robin, Rosa, Roy, Ryu, Samus, Seph, Sheik, Shulk, Snake, Sonic, Sora, Steve, Terry, Wario, WFT, Wolf, Yoshi, Yink. And I might be missing some. GnW's upB is not even the best combo breaker, becuase it's invincible frame 5 and its startup is the exact same as the standard airdodge, frame 3. If a GnW can upB mid combo, that means the combo was not true or that the player messed up the timing, and it DEFINITELY doesn't mean there aren't true combos in this game. Bayo, Lucina, Marth, Mac, Luigi, PT, Yoshi, Snake, Ken, Ryu and DHD all have better combo breakers, and even then they still suffer true combos. Hell, some characters have frame 2 airdodges, which makes combos against them VERY hard. You could have mentioned how Sonic's airdodge is frame 2 and thus a great escape option, but instead decided to focus on GnW's upB which will most of the time trade with the combo (which is something that he DOESN'T want to do, because of his weight) and use this argument to say that Ultimate's combos are mostly fake?
- 8:45 GnW has lost to swords, but NOT because of how powerful their hits are. Otherwise, why wouldn't you say he lost to super heavyweight, who are leagues stronger than swordies? Especially because his upB in Brawl and Sm4sh is a terrible combo breaker move, so it's not like he couldn't get combo'd hard. Why would he lose mostly to strong single hits if he didn't have a good combo breaker move as he does in Ult? GnW always struggled against MOBILITY and RANGE, because he's slow and cannot outrange proper swords. This is still true to some degree, but in Ultimate his advantage state is so incredible that his weakness to swords is much milder than before: what he struggles against is high mobility and characters that can skip his incredible advantage, like Sonic, Rosalina, Yoshi, ZSS. You don't even need to believe me, you can just check Miya's MU chart: x.com/manmamiya13/status/1788199800871248252
Cloud is a GOOD choice vs GnW, but he's not a hard counter to him at all.
- 10:55 you were actually saying pretty decent stuff about Corrin, until you decided to say she has a worse ledgetrap than Cloud... how can a character with such a STRONG ledge threatening tool be worse that Cloud?
- 13:46 there is absolutely no world where Pichu and Olimar can be considered more toxic than Steve. Not only they started losing more and more even before their nerfs because of how much counterplay they have, but they also didn't have NEARLY as much polirization as he does.
- 16:39 I can somehow agree with the points you made (even though you still say a lot of stuff I already addressed as wrong), but I don't understand this fixation with ZSS's nerfs. Sure, they hit, but she started losing because the meta became harder and harder for her to thrive in, since she has to be very precise and is basically always outdamaged by everyone else while also being very fragile.
For your last point: yeah I'm sorry but there's no way Belmont is a good counterpick to those 3 and it basically boils down to everything I addressed until now. Why are you so focused on this apparent "lack of range" weakness? And even if it wasn't true, why not go for MinMin, who's an incredbly better character? Sephiroth? Byleth? Shulk?
Overall, I think there's a poor understanding of the meta, the characters and what actually makes them strong/weak. Again, I like the video's quality, but the information is unfortunately poor.
great to see u back in ur smash bag after following ur channel for a while. keep up the great work!
Damn, I clearly haven't been paying attention because that ranking screen shocked me. Had no idea Spargo and MK Leo had been dethroned.
This video was surprisingly funny, good job on it!
Steve is the lamest to me. "Let me build a wall and mine blocks for a whole minute before we scrap."
Because Steve doesn't play the fighting game
Yeah they should just make him have all his gear and abilities from the start (to be a bit more fair)
2 Kirby's in the top 150 let's go
FUCKKK YEAAAAHHH
Curious to hear people’s thought on Palutena being anti-meta? From what I saw mentioned about cloud at least, her up air is absolute bullshit and she can ledgetrap and edge guard pretty well. As everyone complains about her aerials do a decent amount of damage and can be stringed together, down throw is usable (I say usable because you can di so the Palu can’t follow up at some percentages), she has no issue killing, also has usable projectiles. More comparison to cloud being that she, like cloud, is a fundies character. Now I’m a biased Palutena main and I always hear people complain about her but never see her making any big moves consistently since Nairo (whom I no longer support) years ago. So if you disagree. Or agree, I’d love to hear your thoughts.
I play game and watch and can tell you that that mu is even or so but I can't say much about her versus sonic. Wouldn't a character of her stats be put thru a blender versus steve?
Couple notes:
Steve’s biggest fault as a character isn’t his range (which honestly isn’t very much of a problem, back-air is huge, minecart controls insane space) it’s his poor arial mobility, which is among the lowest in the game. It’s why characters like joker + zss who don’t have big disjoints, don’t feel it because they use mobility to control space and win interactions.
I thought cloud was considered pretty universally considered high tier? (Could be wrong)
Belmonts struggle way too much with juggling + offstage to be a viable pick against such monsters offstage (Steve has block, sonic has spring, and GW has incredible recovery for edge guarding + up-b)
Great video and I loved the premise, just some minor gripes!
I thought the mystery pick was building up to Luigi, cuz as many flaws as that character has it doesn't even matter when your game plan is the exact same no matter the matchup or who has an advantage.
Excellent video. Love to see your humor combined with the ridiculousness that is smash
Also shoutout to corrin side b being INSANELY good. It’s a killing dash attack but you can suddenly decide that if the dash attack whiffed, you can actually not do the dash attack at all and instead jump or cancel or go the other direction. And it also reaches its max burst distance instantly. And it kills at 90 at ledge. And it can be used as an aerial diagonal burst options. Best burst option in the game imo
Although they aren't anti meta, Aegis is definitely one of the best picks against these three. Yes, they have a clear lose condition, but at worst, she goes even with all of Steve, Sonic, and G&W, and at best (I'm one of the people who is on the more optimistic side), they beat all of them 55/45. Not a stomp of a matchup like Kazuya against Roy, but a even or winning matchup is an even or winning matchup
@@typhlosion7872 I'd say Aegis is slight losing to Sonic and Steve but really bad for GnW, or at least Mythra is.
I think toon link could do good. He can kill game and watch really early and use his dijoints to destroy steve blocks and always having a bomb in hand messes up a lot of sonic combos
the reason why top players simply don’t swap to top tiers is not just because of willpower. i am a firm believer that every character matches an archetype for a playee, and these two puzzle pieces need to connect. tweek, who switches around characters a lot, talks about this. his cloud and aegis did not work out in this game
I don't know if your knowledge and experience is substantial enough to justify making a entire video on it, but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on Melee. Design, characters, mechanics, how it holds up compared to other Smash games... stuff like that.
There's not much to uncover. Melee has better risk-reward curves and it's unique exploits (cc and movement) give every character some fundamental tools to deal with other characters.
You very rarely have games like Tweak vs Acola or Kola vs Sonix where players just give up mid game because their character's gimmick doesn't match well into their opponents.
@@traycarrotI dont wanna be that guy but you said "every character" and thats paintfully untrue, theres more top tiers in Ultimate than there are viable characters in Melee. (I like melee too but lets mot act like its a balanced fighter lol)
@@quarium5681 Point me to where I said Melee was more balanced.
Ultimate has more balance in the fact that "every" character has some singularly broken trait that they live or die on. That doesn't particularly make it more enjoyable as a spectator (although I find it fucking hilarious and fun) to watch Scissors run into Rock.
Melee has universal mechanics that help bridge the gap, although "every" character doesn't use them as effectively. DK and Falcon use CC better than anyone. Marth and Shiek abuse the ledge mechanics better than anyone. Luigi and ICs abuse wavedash better than anyone. There are better characters, but these pretty basic mechanics allow for Scissors to have _some_ play against others.
Yes, the game with nearly 100 characters has more characters at each tier than the one with 25 😬
Hey @treycuret,
I imagine most people watching this video are somehow invested in at least one of Smash's competitive scenes. Furthermore I imagine they can make those observations regarding differences in mechanics and character matchups between Ultimate and Melee.
That being said, my intention was not to survey the general populace; I was just curious about Fudj's perspective, that's all. It's not because I want to be spoonfed an opinion on competitive Melee (I think it's pretty fun!); it's because Fudj is notorious for his "The Competitive Failings of Smash Ultimate" and other videos (fairly) critiquing competitive Ultimate. I always wonder, based on his previous videos, what positive/neutral/negative things he would have to say about Melee's design.
@@Phunlyfe That would be interesting, I'd love to hear Fudj's perspective. I doubt he'd offer much if he was a member of the general populace; his Ultimate videos did so well imo primarily bc he was so invested in Sm4sh and Ultimate's competitive scene. There's really not much unique to say for an outsider looking in imo.
I don’t think cloud is anti meta, i think sparg0 is anti meta 😂, same with all other characters with players like shadic or marss, other than those particular players those characters don’t perform “anti meta” at all, because you have to be so much better than your opponent to win, on normal circunstances at even player level, a cloud has little to do against a sonic, or ab ZSS against a steve, and so on
It’s so funny hearing about how Cloud (mainly through Sparg0’s usage of him) has a good matchup vs Sonic and then Sparg0 says that Sonic is Cloud’s second worst matchup (and he won’t argue if you think it IS his worst).
ZSS' up air (with the height it has when she fullhops or double jumps) also reaches G&W's up-b easier than many characters.
It's been a while since I played a game you made a video on, it feels good
Honestly it's weird not to see Kazuya in the video, I remember that people wanted to ban him and Steve years ago.
Ikr. Isnt it weird that kazuya isnt a top 15 character to most? People just learned that super camping him is the strat and he plummeted
shulk seems to have all the qualities you mentioned. and he has shield for his disadvantage state too
Lol 22k views for this, 2k views for actual gold on pallete swap. Algorithm working well!
My thoughts exactly lmao
I dont care how bad g&w and steve are for the game im not supporting corrin
Based
why just cause she's fire emblem? get over yourself😭
Im assuming it's for a story reason that a non fire emblem fan wouldn't get? If so, can you help me :(
@@kaorinsz ive been a fire emblem fan longer than you've been out of diapers, probably
Honestly, I understand where you are coming from.
Fudj I love your videos cause you always have the scientifically accurate opinion every time please continue doing this
The top 2 characters being Steve and Sonic with their unfun playstyle is what made me stop playing or watching Smash Ultimate. Game and Watch is less unfun to play against, but it is still frustrating in ultimate's environment with the rarity of true combos that don't need frame precision to pull off.
I still play and watch Melee and Brawl mods (P+ and B-), but ultimate just has too many issues competitively right now.
I agree. I may be biased as a day one game and watch fan but game and watch is just a too well rounded and defensive character but he isn't breaking the games physics down for his own abuse or full screen burst movement tools to slow down a pace of a game because he wants to be in your face. Always. And honestly he is over rated...
Is that... Etrian Odyssey music playing during the Corrin section?
The mii gunner community is more confident ab the sonic matchup too; tho bc gunner also beats snake, she may even reinforce steve
ngl let’s be real as a community, steve has multiple losing mus, atleast 5, there’s no way he doesn’t lose mus with that poor base mobility
Steve has crazy crazy stuff tho and techs that can send him flying. He doesn't really lose ANY MUs because of all the cheese he has. But, there are a couple characters that can intimidate them yes. But sonic also debatably loses to like no one. Gnw has a bad mu or two
@@aidenvega6306 true but the characters that do well can deal with these techs, and/or limit steve from getting access, as most of the techs require resources and mining
@@maxpogfrog yeah theres definitely a good handful of them that can deal with a lot of his shenanigans. Corrin, cloud, zss, shulk, aegis, hero, sephiroth, sonic, pt all come to mind. But every time i think this stuff some steve shows me 14 infinites they can do to that specific character and tell me IM crazy
Holy shit I forgot you made smash content, this made my day
One thing you didn't mention about cloud is that, he's insanely fast for a sword character. He's pretty much tied with Roy and is only beat by mythra. Unlike mythra, he gets insanely good kill options with that speed and range.
So he can basically keep sonic and Steve under constant pressure in the corners.
It's the thing I hate the most about him given I play ZSS. He can kind of just run at a lot of characters, throw out a lot of really safe and highly punishing options, and do pretty well
dawg i didnt expect you to be so funny. good shit, man.
"and Sonic's top players think he could beat god if the timer is set at 8 minutes" dawg I cracked up at a video essay wtf
Great video but I think you meant to say "he" when talking about shadic
9:40 Funny enough, Texas was part of Mexico and many mexican descendants and Spanish speakers live there.
Great video. Good to see you again Fudj
sparg0 very specifically plays characters like aegis, corrin, and even roy because he does not believe that cloud does well in the matchup! otherwise, great video (:
Great video. Haven't finished it, but I'm laughing quite a lot so far.
So essentially, playing sword characters can save you 15% or more on stock insurance?
Edit: and zss?
What you said about korrin sure as hell was a sentance!
Awesome video. I do disagree with some things but still good. As for cloud with Sonic, Spargo mentioned in the lights out podcast he is gonna pull out the roy for Sonic cause he believes in that character for the match up.
I find it weird that GnW players struggle against ZSS I always thought of the matchup even if anything. I really think it is just Marss than it is ZSS, it is a similar thing as cloud where if you have good fundamentals you are able to hit them where it really matters to close out the stock.
Belmont shoutout is awesome to hear. I was thinking no top player would ever pull them out but then I remembered Riddles actually mained them. Riddles does struggle with those 3 characters, maybe it is time for him to hone the Belmonts once more.
Lastly, Corrin is a really good chsracter. They don't have anything in particular that is just OP just that everything in their kit except their movement stats are above average, like the range, combos, framedata, and kill power. She is just boring so I think why a lot of people don't choose to play her like the other top 3.
Oh one last thing, it is awesome to see you post another time. Your video about Smash Ultimate competitive design being flawed is really good.
Corrin combos visually look dull yeah but I honestly find her fun to play.
I feel like whenever I play Corrin, I feel like I'm losing because I've barely done anything that felt valuable and then I look at the stock count and I'm up 2. Such an unrewarding character, zero positive feedback, honestly think that's a big part of why it took this long for her to be explored
@@elitecombine5373One unique aspect of Corrin that not many people talk about. She has the fastest dash shield in the game. So she basically can approach with low risk compare to other characters.
The other thing to note. People used to think Corrin didn't have a good OOS option. But that's actually not true. Corrin didn't have an easy good OOS option. But the thing is a lot of top Corrin realize. I think Neo the one who start it. But basically. If you footstool with Corrin into Dair. You basically now have frame 4 OOS option that put your opponent in tech chase situation or guarantee pin depends on percent.
gnw zss isnt that bad, zss just does better than most characters.
Shoutout to Thems Fightin Herds bid for Evo against Melee
nice seeing you post again
One must imagine Sisyphus happy
Amazing video man so glad this got recommended
Hero could save the game as an anti-meta pick
Cloud was always broken ever since he was added to the WiiU version
I hadn't been keeping up with Ultimate's meta but now I'm kind of glad I wasn't.
Kinda similar to Smash 4 for me
At few interesting match-ups too watch but that's as far as it goes for me
Im sorry but the take on cloud vs sonic was way off. Cloud absolutely loses that mu and Id argue its easily one of his worst. Sonic can dance around cloud with his speed (clouds biggest weakness is chars that out speed him, look at joker, mythra and shiek)
And sonic can one touch him at the ledge. Also look atvthe amount of times spargo has switched chars vs sonic, hes on his 4th character!!!! Spargo never has to do that lol
Absolutely agree, and sonic does not struggle with swords at all lol. He is the counter to swords because he's the god of whiff punishing, thus why you mentioned Sparg0 doesnt even go cloud against him anymore (roy is less even of a swordie and more of a fighter, which is why he does better with him). Sonic only potentially loses to characters that can keep up with him / out camp him like fox or pika, or even with characters like zss.
Thought I was losing my mind, glad someone else agrees lol
its almost as if knowing the matchups and having a variety of characters is best
I like the idea, until belmont gets carried off stage by mine cart 💀
I wish Marths tippers and general neutral was safer. Seems like fundie characters are unfavored in the games design compared to specialty chars
Well didn't expect to see you make another smash ultimate video 👀
Didnt know steve and game and watch didnt have range
People are still sleeping on Sora
Sora sucks- weight is too low and floaty doesn't help.
Mewtwo problems
@@Matanumikeep sleeping
Pokemon trainer's design in smash ultimate flawlessly counters steve game and watch and sonic especially because of the ivysaur's razor leaf and disjointed aireals vaporizes blocks and dominates neutral squirtle can rushdown and combo the shit out of steve and Charizard has a better recovery of the three his tilts and aireals can phase through blocks and kill steve at early percents
Squirtle can keep up with sonic and combo him for days ivysaur just straight up negates spin dash via disjoints up air down air and specials and Charizard can live longer than Sonic the hedgehog
Same shit on the pkt vs g&w but ivysaur is more dominant
I TOTALLY AGREE 100000% except one thing. As a game and watch player, ill tell you a secret. Charizard ruins gnw. His weight and range and special moves armor do everything you need in the mu. I can personally say ivy is VERY easy to kill
You got Etrian Odyssey music on the background? Nice taste
Despite not knowing too much about Smash, it's always engaging to watch your videos surrounding it! Hope everything with Palette Swap turns out well too :)
I actually just picked up the mystery character as a pocket for the reasons you said just a few days ago. Going to get revenge on the Steve that edged my Bowser out of getting top 8 at my local >:)
Well?
@aidenvega6306 Steve player hasn't come back so I've mostly been sticking with Bowser since then.
@@oharrison14 aw heck yeah. I think that's best case scenario lmao
I wouldn’t say Cloud is anti meta other than being one of maybe four characters that solidly beat Steve (and so people should start picking him up to counterpick Steve if they want to win), Cloud is just a extremely good and overtuned and so most match ups swordies lose to like Diddy Kong, Pikachu and Joker are even, I would say Cloud losing to Sonic, Aegis and MinMin will mean he can actually never be solo mained in this meta. To me the anti meta characters are Corrin, Bayo, ROB, Snake and Samus since they can do their thing against any top tier
pt is arguably a good anti meta pick but nobody plays them so we'll never know
Excluding his win over Sonix at Supernova Sparg0 has actually lost their three last encounters (won in Winners final and Lost grand finals in the Coinbox IRL) probably because he tried corrin a couple times and Sonix becoming way better
14:11 "particularly the neutral air nerf" shows up b 😂
Just found your channel and I love it! Keep doing what you're doing :)
hey fudji loved the video but in case ur reading this can you please tell me the name of the video where you talked about hades thanks
Maybe you're referring to my video about British accents?
On paper, I always thought Cloud should do good against Sonic as well. I don't think it's a bad opinion, when it comes to strong characters especially people tend to overcomplicate things. Let's see what these two say in a few more years.
hear me out, lucas. recently we found a true universal zero to death using footstool djcz, and even though its pretty hard rn (way harder than ness's infinite) it can be done oos and from a dtilt at low percents or a regular djcz, also just no one really knows what to do against him
oh yeah, we named the pseudo infinite "fruitloops" lmao
Lucas has too much potential. I think id rather steve
Did this not fit on Palette Swap?
From what I can tell the line is that Palette Swap is comedy first so any mostly educational videos are probably gonna end up here now
the dry delivery of everything is killing me im laughing so hard
Minmin deserves a mention.
Incestuous overlord...? What's the deal with corrin?
i've never someone believe in the Belmonts this strongly
I think hero, toon link and pt are all characters that can do very well in this meta :)
Your explanations of how cloud fares against the 3 top tiers feels a little convoluted. Like I think a similar explanation of that depth could be made for any mid tier and the three top tiesr.
I think you downplay Corrin ledge trap there. Not only Corrin ledge trap are better than Cloud. She might be top 10 ledge trapper in the game. Pin alone makes her ledge trap game insanely good!!!!
0:13 - 0:18
so unbelievably based
uh oh spaghettio fudj made a video that was too fudgy??? (role with it) for palette swap
Ive been a belmont believer since day 1
I agree with Cloud but Cloud doesn't beat all 3 like you said. In fact Sparg0 and many other Clouds think they lose to Sonic due to the speed of the char being hard to space out and Sonic edgeguarding tf outta Cloud for the most part.
I also dunno about the Belmont pick LOL, against Steve he's alright but Sonic and Game and Watch realistically just have to throw him offstage once and that's it due to how good their edgeguarding is.
But yeah other than that I agree 😎
I can’t say for sure if the Belmonts Do well against sonic or game and watch but as Steve main yes the Belmonts do well against Steve
The only reason it’s probably slain Steve’s favor is the Belmonts garage recovery