I think it is also worth considering that the packaging process can produce a defective package. It's not just the photolithography process that can produce a defective die, but the packaging process can use two perfectly functional dies and if one of them is misaligned, the electrical contact between the substrate and the die may be too poor to keep that die active. So this may have been intended to be a 7900x, but when it was tested post-packaging it was found that one of the dies wasn't up to snuff and it was salvaged as a 7600x instead.
Yeah that was my guess, the CCD was fine but the substrate bond failed during assembly. Was a little surprised to see it inactive actually, AMD have a history of dual CCD x600 chips.
Yeah, I expect failed single 8 core CCX and/or failed cores in a CCX moves them into candidates for turning into 7600s. It could also not clock high enough for 7700/7900 versions as well.
@@halbouma6720 AFAIK manufacturers do QC tests and binning before assembly (sometimes even before cutting the wafer into dies) so with this chiplet design it's way less probable that failed or low clocking cores are simply deactivated like it was on previous monolithic die designs. It's also more costly effective that low clocking CCX are stockpiled to be used for future skus for desktop or more probably server or mobile products (if they use the same CCX design over the whole generation) instead of being deactivated. All in all, as OP said the most probable hypothesis is a defect during the bonding process of the CCX on the interposer in a 7900x assembly line. And if it's the case this rebranded 7600x should be a golden sample (at least for the usable CCX) compared to the usual quality tolerance of this sku.
The thoughtfulnes and transparency around the development and bundling decisions for the delidding tool are really nice to see. The thoughtfulness around re-use is awesome. I wish more companies could focus on and embrace re-use like that.
He also understands that anyone who delids their CPU with his tool is going to have to buy his contact frame so more people that delid means more contact frames sold which may be the real money maker here. I agree the transparency is great but I don't think this is as much of an altruistic thought process as you think. Either way der8auer is the man and I am not trying to be negative about him and his products at all so please don't take this the wrong way. If I end up going Ryzen 7000 when the X3D chips come out I assume I will be using this tool eventually with a contact frame (assuming he updates both for the added depth of the X3D dies). Stoked that he is finally doing this for AMD now that they are LGA.
@@Exostenzaa exactly, plus anyone with a brain knows they're spending 60 euro's on something they'll probably only use once, maybe twice. It's a tall order when people can just buy cheap knockoffs to try to save a buck and yolo it.
@@simplyscholar21 I mean, he did mention that people can group together to buy it, if people go on reddit, discord or somewhere else and find like 5 people it already gets to be about 10 quid - which is why he mentioned he won't include the plate on the same package. That kind of transparency is really nice - how many sellers would turn to you and say - oh yeah, get some people and buy fewer blocks, it works better.
@@prgnify you realize he could just offer two items at his shop. A single, and a combo with a discount, and let people doing group buys just purchase the single, right?
@@Exostenzaa I can understand where you are looking at this from. But I hope that nobody buys this that doesn't know what they are getting into. Otherwise I think it's a good product that deserves some good marketing. That's just my opinion.
@@mintynuggets yes and no... those athlons were true 4 cores with 1 disabled just to keep the SKU. The first batch of the 3 cores was impossible to unlock since those were actually damaged cpus... later on, the fail rate was too low to keep the demand, so they started to disable good cpus just to keep selling the SKU. In this case, I'm almost sure this is an actually damaged cpu and later on, I don't think they will start to sell 2ccd cpus with one disabled since it doesn't makes sense.
The fact that he's like "yeah, we want to make it so people can buy the delider and share it" instead of the standard business mentality of making it a bundle for maximum profit is why he's a gem to the community.
That is why monopolized capitalism is a worst system ever. And that is why government absolutely have to oppose any too-big-for-the-market corporation.
@@AS-Phoenix.2Stop pole riding, he COULD make a few thousand from this tool OR he could make hundreds of thousands from his name brand and youtube.....Do the math nerd.
@@ShoeAlmighty he COULD make few thousand dollars from this tool AND from his name brand and TH-cam. He just chooses to only get from one. Don't be a hater.
The transparency on you basically saying 'Hey, you can always buy these second hand because they are a solid construct' Effectively capping your market growth / total sales on that item in the name of pure engineering and advancements, not greed, is refreshing and beautiful. It gives me hope, and that alone, is the reason i'm going to buy one. Thank you der8auer
To put it differently, he is working in a very niche market with this tool, and if you try to gouge when you are in the niche market, it spreads pretty quick and you are out of business with a broken reputation. Consider what else DerBauer does, he has to keep that reputation to keep his other more mainstream products like the thermal paste going strong.
There's another thought that they won't cap the market as by the time "saturation" has occurred in what is a very niche market then sufficient capital has been built up to help fund the next project.
On the other hand, a good amount of cost is from the material. It won't create much more profits by selling more in new. Lots will be given to the factory for raw material.
And just like that, by being open, honest and suggesting an approach that benefits your clientele more than it does yourself, you'll most likely make a decent profit out of this (which you absolutely deserve). What a legend this guy.
I don't personally have a need for lapping or deliding, but I do deeply appreciate and respect your initiative to bringing high quality products to the market and ensuring your customers can safely use these tools without worry of irreparable damage.
Same, stock CPUs on stock computers, but this is very interesting, and the craftsmanship and care is enjoyable to see. This kind of thing is the community creating their own tools. It's great.
Same. I won't be doing any of this but can really appreciate the engineering efforts and those that wish to push the envelope to the very extreme. It's akin to those who modify their cars or do engine swaps. I can appreciate a gear heads willingness to take things to a whole other level. Pedal to the metal!!!! 🤩🤩🤩👍👍👍
@@nexusyang4832 It's comforting to know that I'm saving myself a lot of work to put the heat sink right next to the die and get a few deg C temperature drop.
We already reached out to our account rep at thermal grizzly to get these new tools. We look forward to using them on our computers and providing them to our community! Hopefully they're ready for mass production soon!
I haven't delidded any CPU before, but I feel like its time to jump on this. I'm just making sure the AMD platform is something I want to continue with long term. So far, so good. Thank you for taking all of this time and research to bring us these products. Your videos are fun to watch and learn from!!
Well maybe don't. I ruined two cpus that way. This round I was working soooooo careful, but liquid metal tends to roll off, microscopically. Sometimes you won't see it at all. At first it was all good, then motherboard went bye bye. I ruined 2 gpus and 2 cpus. Last motherboard I destroyed forced me to buy 13900k, because finding z390 motherboard is next to impossible now. Unless you want to spend 300 bucks on motherboard. Liquid metal is a bit*h Thermal Grizzly liquid metal graveyarded GTX 1070ti, GTX 1080, i7-8700k, Z370 motherboard, Z390 motherboard. I made a final decision never to do it again. Liquid metal is too dangerous, even for a very careful person like me. You have to be very careful on tilting your pc afterwards, as liquid metal can run off, it's not worth it. I delidded 9 I9-900k just fine, but it made my motherboard die, and I was so careful. I am going to be one of the few to really say: Please don't. It reduced anywhere from 12 to 15 degrees for me, but then eventually liquid metal ran off, if you tilted pc or blew dust with dust blower/compressed canned air. So, yeah, know that it can happen, be ready to lose parts as the greatest risk.
It just seems the most worth atm. I'm slowly acquiring parts for my next build and I'm 99% sure it's gonna be an AMD build, even tho I was looking forward to finally going Intel for once.
Great work.. I'm TRHILLED to see your product. I have been in this game for a very VERY long time ('87 was my first build) anyway I was a child back then.. We have come so far with technology it's actually crazy to think of a time when it would take a FEW MINUTES to boot my system and I had 1mb of ram between 4 256mb simms. So nice to see you working with and still bucking the machine!
maybe next cpu gen we go back to a couple minutes of boot time. my new Ryzen 9 7900X system already takes 2-3x longer to boot than my previous i7-9700KF despite having less and much faster drives lol. Would be interesting to know why it takes so long since the actual cpu performance is leagues beyond the older intel chip once it's done booting.
@@AnthonyRBlacker I googled a bit for possible reasons. One factor could be memory checks during the boot process as the old system only had half the memory of the new one and also new main boards having more features that need to load during post.
It was intended to be 7900X, 2 x 6 core CPU. If one CCD does not pass the QC, you can downbin it to 7600X and rewrite the CPU name in ID. It was done already for 5900X to 5600X and 5950X to 5800X CPUs too.
I personally think that U are AMAZING !! don't forget that. U have been providing such valuable info/tests for us, I do appreciate this and please keep doing a great job! I wish I had a good PC one day! I enjoy watching U! Bartek
I believe both explanations are correct. The 7600X are 79xx to cover the demand, but they are also defective. The first batches always suffer from a higher level of defects. AMD is taking advantage of them for the 7600. This reminds me of the Phenon X6 times, when many Athlon or Phenon X2, X3 cpus were actually X4 versions with cores deactivated, easily "fixable" by the bios. Despite being faulty, most of them worked perfectly on vanilla (no overclocking), I had a few myself. This also happened frequently with video cards, the first versions of cards like geforce 6200 were actually defective geforce 6600, but most of them could be modded and work normally. There were cards like this on ATI too. This usually happens during launch, and for a short period of time, just the first revision and for the first few months. After a few years, the information spreads over the internet, and a race begins in the used market to find these models, and they go up in price.
Ati x800 gto serie . Yes you can active the extra core Or the nvidia 6800le to unlock to a nvidia 6800gt core. Oke you are stuck with ddr1 but still cheap and with sli a lot of power in that time
Reminds me of decades ago where all 386 chips manufactured by Intel were supposed to be 386DX chips with the onboard maths coprocessor but the failure rate of the co-processor unit was high enough that they disabled them and packaged them as 386SX chips at a cheaper price to minimise waste and maximise profit. Then they also then marketed external maths coprocessor chips to make up the difference if you wanted. Disclaimer - this is all from memory so haven't actually googled it to see if my memory is correct 🙂 So is very possible AMD are doing the same thing here (as others have commented) where to minimise waste the "faulty" higher specced chips are having the faulty bits disabled and the chip sold as a lesser model to minimise waste.
New products for Intel as well you say? Will we get a delid tool for LGA1700 this time? Sure the rockit cool version exists, but it always looked a bit sketchy and straight up often deforms the IHS when used. We need a proper quality delid tool to unlock RPL!
The original Threadrippers had 4 chiplets for a 16 core processor. They just rummaged for broken dies and put them onto the substrate to make the mounting pressure the same across the dies. Though I doubt that's the case for the 7600/7700. Still it would be weird that they have an SKU that comes off the line sometimes with 2 dies and sometimes 3. Oh well, the customer usually wouldn't figure out anyway. They'll just read the silkscreened text
When are you going to upload the R9 7950X delidded results? I feel tempted to buy your tool to get it delided. Seems very convenient to drop the temperatures for machines that are meant to be running 24/7 at full load as it would decrease the need to be cleaning the radiators from dust.
Roman, you're such a quality person. Your marketing behind the direct die and delid tool are respectable. I wish we didn't live so far from each other. One of my goals is to grab a beer with you and talk overclocking.
50-60 Euro sounds like a pretty good deal considering you may be able to save that much on your cooler because you don't have to be as aggressive to cool it down ... unless you want to.
I need me some Wera screwdrivers. My grandfather got some in the mid 90s and they're still just as good as day one. You can really beat the snot out of them too. Such high quality
You should redesign the delidder to function with a lever instead of a screw since it takes so many oscillations. Could just hold it in a vice and use a long handle and work it back and forth.
The 5600X and 5800X had some dual CCD chips at launch, they were chips that didn't validate as their 12 and 16 core counterparts. They also had issues with ryzen master.
Man Der8auer is such a good guy. The way he explains his thought process of development, still staying true to the computer modding community. I am so happy for you man that you can make money on the stuff you love to do. Keep on the good work, when I buy anything that is branded with your name I am 100% confident that there has been maximum thought out in it from the customer/modded side of view.
I assume you probably can't say anything definitively yet, but do you believe that delidding will be any different on Ryzen CPUs with 3D V-Cache? Maybe you've tried it on a 5800X3D? As someone with a 5950X neither the 7950X nor 13900K look to be worthwhile upgrades, but Zen 4 X3D might be, especially if there does turn out to be a 7950X3D as has been heavily rumored.
@@robojimtv Well my question was really about whether the 3D V-Cache makes any difference. 5800X3D can't be compared to current Ryzen 7000 models, but could to the other Ryzen 5000 desktop CPUs.
When you took off that heatsink and waiting for the system to turn off, I immediately got a 5 second silent ad for grilling steaks. For a sec I thought you were memeing here.
Second Stage CPU Binning, likely during the BURN-IN test where on CCD gone bad during that particular testing but the other had no issues. Something you can not do with Intel yet and that lowers costs for AMD even further than just the chiplet approach and CPU cores being technically multipurpose like Ryzen, Threadripper, EPIC, etc all using the same CPU cores chiplet. It's one detail that APU's have been missing since the first ZEN series but that looks like is now being addressed. From what I can see next gen APUs will also be a full chiplet based design instead of monolithic, something I can't wait to be ready, specially when they start combining CPU/GPU/NPU etc on the "SOCs".
It would be pretty funny if AMD decided to release "big.LITTLE" CPUs with a poorly-clocking chiplet locked to lower frequencies. Probably not worth the effort for them.
13:57 you should compare the 7600x and 7800x for the resistors on top to see what match and then compare to the 7900x to see what difference they have, you likely need to shift or add a surface resistor to enable the 2nd core die.
I remember a time when Athlon XP processors were sold without a cover, and the need to disassemble them. People often broke the die by forcing too much on one of the corners (by mounting the cooler incorrectly).
Great work Roman! Now for the "dream" ... make a BIOS that can detect if the CPU has a 2nd CCD (deactivated) and gives you the option to manually enable it ... something like phenomx4 II that you had a "chance" to unlock 2 more cores and make it 6 core 😃 This could be very fun if it could happen, plus the sales of AMD CPUs would sky rocket 😝
My first PC build I specifically bought the 3 core(forget the name) because everyone said you could just unlock the 4th core and bam! You have a phenom II X4. Did it in my bios, worked like a charm and even the system read it as a phenom 4 core lol
Kudos on your transparent explanations and open commercial attitude! That builds huge trust right there. Friendly language tip: much better to say "foolproof" than "idiot-proof". The former is time-honored and accepted in this use with no negative connotation. "Idiot-proof" is disdainful, too strongly implying that some or many of your customers will be idiots. There's a big difference _in this particular usage only_ . Your English in general is of course excellent; I could only wish to be so capably bilingual.
It would be great to see if the disabled CCD can be enabled for extra cores maybe at a bit higher voltage much similar like core unlocking on the AM2+, AM3 CPUs.
I wonder if it was a defective higher end CPU OR they simply killed off a part of it to meet demand for the lower end skus?..i wonder if it could be re-enabled/brought back to life somehow even if it was not 100% stable? This stuff fascinates me! and would defiantly make an interesting video attempting to re-enabling it if possible.
Can't wait for the delid/frame to be available! I've been playing with my 7950x and I am pretty sure I am at the limit of what I can do without better cooling =D Keep up the good work!
I have never had any intention of overclocking before, so I never looked into these kind of techniques. However, with the 'interesting' choices that AMD has made with AM5 I do feel like I should perhaps try my hand at this delidding and maybe even water-cooling. If I do, I know to find your channel/store :)
I wish there was a better direct supplier for thermal grizzly in North america. It should not be this difficult for consumers to acquire genuine retail products close to their date of release.
My WC stopped working today, my 7980XE hit 110C twice, and it didn't shut down or anything, when I checked the logs and saw that the pretty boy was at 110C, I was quite shocked. No damage so far and I replaced the pump.
Awesome! I will definitely be one to buy this. Now could you please list the supported EK water blocks that would fit your device. I don't want to buy something that wouldn't work in the end. Also would like to keep like metals with each other. 🙏 And if you have a liquid metal that won't eat up the water block that'd be great 😏
Love watching the development process! I appreciate your efforts to develop what I consider reasonably priced products and tools that help the pc community overcome manufacturer choices.
we are getting to the point where direct die cooling is going to be a must cause the nm is exceeding the heat transfer of an ihs in the very near future. So his work and research is going to be paramount in the future for cpu manufacturers. and those tighter tolerances are going to drive the cpu and motherboard prices inherently
No, you can clearly see what killed the 7700x, it was by part of the PCB being crushed in the tool and destroying the substrate. Both the 7600x and 7700x are single CCD 99% of the time, a 2 CCD 7600x is practically a unicorn.
Solution-oriented, a good price and sustainable. Even recommended by the makers. When I see businesses operate in such a fashion, I'm way more likely to buy from them than any ad will help, thank you.
Afaik CCD's need to each have the same number of active cores, I imagine this is 2 groups of 6 core CCD's with 3 disabled in each group (so 2 Ryzen 7600X CPU CCD's).
The little voltage regulator chip active is probably kept awake by the USB controller. So that the USB ports can keep devices power-only devices alive or be used for charging, when the system is off. You can disable "USB always on" (and RGB always on ofc) in the UEFI/bios. Some always on RGB accents are actually powered through the same USB controller, so turning off "USB always on" turns off the RGB accents too. A quirk of USB always on, at least on older Intel boards, is that depending on how your keyboard and mouse is wired (a lot of Razer stuff does this), if you hit a key or click the mouse after powering on, the keyb/mouse RGB will come on. And never turn off, until next system shutdown.
Not sure what the confusion is here in this video, it's comon practice for cpu's that don't make the grade at aa higher level to be rebranded and have whatever failed parts disabled to make it a lower grade cpu. It's just more obvious with the amd chiplet approach.
It would be great if Intel and AMD released CPUs with the heat spreader. Obviously phsyical damage shouldn't be warrantied and of course they should also have a short warranty as well.
At 12:05, the CPU-Z version being used is one revision out of date. Intel's 13th gen CPU socket 1700 mechanism appears to still have the same defects as the 12th gen mechanism, no?
Just had an interesting thought... I was reading the IHS thickness is 3.6mm. That's almost exactly the thickness of a standard Peltier module. I wonder if the tolerances are loose enough that a standard mounting bracket could be used with a Peltier module sandwiched in between, and if that could make a useful difference?
Having a two dies PCB in a 7600x actually makes a lot of sense... If Amd knows some dies may not be fully functional the best way to recycle them is to scrap them inside "dual dies" chips and then make more accurate selection depending on numbers of functionnal cores... (ie 12 cores, 10 cores, or even 8 and 6 cores)
If one of the CCDs were broken, shouldn’t they catch it before they put it on the interposer? Most chips are tested on the wafer before they are even cut and packaged. Though now that I write this … there are some issues you only catch after packaging (which is why most manufacturers test before and after packaging).
Man this brings back memories of seeing Guruji (Shamino) use copper chunks for quick test when swapping a board during x48-x58 era for xtreme oc sessions
Maybe you could fix the forcing screw into the base plate so that you could just loosen and tighten the bolt instead of going side to side, like press a bearing into the base plate and press the bolt into the ID of the bearing. Just a thought. Looks like a nice tool though, good work!
Most likely that one of the devices died after/during packaging and they just fused the bad one out and left the good one enabled. That way they do not have to throw the whole MCP away.
I guess the most reasonable explanation is that both CCDs were 6-core working parts before mounting them onto the CPU PCB, so it was meant to be a 7900X, but one of them went out on the process and they had to make-do with what was already on the table and relabeled it as a 7600X to get profit out of it.
Maybe the die was damaged during the mounting process and instead of a dead chip they just turned off the other die to make it a lower model chip. Maybe that one die would hit higher speeds being from a higher core count model chip
Perhaps it can be unlocked like cache in Duron, by repositioning the transistor or the pencil mod :) If you have naked 7900x or 7950x can you check the layout of those to see the pattern ?
No cant hear any Noise in background but sweet music of machines Roman gave his cat & a bunch of preschoolers and grandma a delider tool & they had no tWrouble wrecking the Ryzen CPU's oops deliding it :) Grandma used it to cut cookies the cat did well 1st fastest time because he watches everything in the workshop & levs up purrfect work mr meowski
Had a potentially stupid idea a little while ago; to vaccuform something like aluminum or copper foil to the surface of the die, with watercooling directly on the other side of that foil.
I think it is also worth considering that the packaging process can produce a defective package. It's not just the photolithography process that can produce a defective die, but the packaging process can use two perfectly functional dies and if one of them is misaligned, the electrical contact between the substrate and the die may be too poor to keep that die active. So this may have been intended to be a 7900x, but when it was tested post-packaging it was found that one of the dies wasn't up to snuff and it was salvaged as a 7600x instead.
Yeah that was my thought as well
Yeah that was my guess, the CCD was fine but the substrate bond failed during assembly. Was a little surprised to see it inactive actually, AMD have a history of dual CCD x600 chips.
Yeah, I expect failed single 8 core CCX and/or failed cores in a CCX moves them into candidates for turning into 7600s. It could also not clock high enough for 7700/7900 versions as well.
@@halbouma6720 AFAIK manufacturers do QC tests and binning before assembly (sometimes even before cutting the wafer into dies) so with this chiplet design it's way less probable that failed or low clocking cores are simply deactivated like it was on previous monolithic die designs.
It's also more costly effective that low clocking CCX are stockpiled to be used for future skus for desktop or more probably server or mobile products (if they use the same CCX design over the whole generation) instead of being deactivated.
All in all, as OP said the most probable hypothesis is a defect during the bonding process of the CCX on the interposer in a 7900x assembly line. And if it's the case this rebranded 7600x should be a golden sample (at least for the usable CCX) compared to the usual quality tolerance of this sku.
The thoughtfulnes and transparency around the development and bundling decisions for the delidding tool are really nice to see. The thoughtfulness around re-use is awesome. I wish more companies could focus on and embrace re-use like that.
He also understands that anyone who delids their CPU with his tool is going to have to buy his contact frame so more people that delid means more contact frames sold which may be the real money maker here. I agree the transparency is great but I don't think this is as much of an altruistic thought process as you think. Either way der8auer is the man and I am not trying to be negative about him and his products at all so please don't take this the wrong way. If I end up going Ryzen 7000 when the X3D chips come out I assume I will be using this tool eventually with a contact frame (assuming he updates both for the added depth of the X3D dies). Stoked that he is finally doing this for AMD now that they are LGA.
@@Exostenzaa exactly, plus anyone with a brain knows they're spending 60 euro's on something they'll probably only use once, maybe twice. It's a tall order when people can just buy cheap knockoffs to try to save a buck and yolo it.
@@simplyscholar21 I mean, he did mention that people can group together to buy it, if people go on reddit, discord or somewhere else and find like 5 people it already gets to be about 10 quid - which is why he mentioned he won't include the plate on the same package.
That kind of transparency is really nice - how many sellers would turn to you and say - oh yeah, get some people and buy fewer blocks, it works better.
@@prgnify you realize he could just offer two items at his shop. A single, and a combo with a discount, and let people doing group buys just purchase the single, right?
@@Exostenzaa I can understand where you are looking at this from. But I hope that nobody buys this that doesn't know what they are getting into. Otherwise I think it's a good product that deserves some good marketing. That's just my opinion.
I would imagine that the cpu was supposed to be more than 8 cores, but one CCD failed testing, so they just disabled it and made it a 6-core unit.
It's like those 3 core athlons where you could enable the fourth core in the bios
@@mintynuggets I am curious if you could turn the second die on and get 2 extra threads out of it.
yeah maybe supposed to be a 12 core part, but one CCD didnt work after they packaged it so they binned it down to 7600x
@@mintynuggets yes and no... those athlons were true 4 cores with 1 disabled just to keep the SKU. The first batch of the 3 cores was impossible to unlock since those were actually damaged cpus... later on, the fail rate was too low to keep the demand, so they started to disable good cpus just to keep selling the SKU.
In this case, I'm almost sure this is an actually damaged cpu and later on, I don't think they will start to sell 2ccd cpus with one disabled since it doesn't makes sense.
I think so too. Specifically a 7900X, as it's 12 core, so half would be 6.
The fact that he's like "yeah, we want to make it so people can buy the delider and share it" instead of the standard business mentality of making it a bundle for maximum profit is why he's a gem to the community.
That is why monopolized capitalism is a worst system ever. And that is why government absolutely have to oppose any too-big-for-the-market corporation.
He doesn't make money from selling the delidders, he makes money from youtube. Please don't idolize people.
@@ShoeAlmighty He COULD make money from deliders but he doesn't. So I'll keep idolizing.
@@AS-Phoenix.2Stop pole riding, he COULD make a few thousand from this tool OR he could make hundreds of thousands from his name brand and youtube.....Do the math nerd.
@@ShoeAlmighty he COULD make few thousand dollars from this tool AND from his name brand and TH-cam. He just chooses to only get from one. Don't be a hater.
The transparency on you basically saying
'Hey, you can always buy these second hand because they are a solid construct'
Effectively capping your market growth / total sales on that item in the name of pure engineering and advancements, not greed, is refreshing and beautiful. It gives me hope, and that alone, is the reason i'm going to buy one.
Thank you der8auer
Usually I would say this is hokey or cringey but honestly, he rocks so much for this.
Yeah. It's such a breath of fresh air. I respected him before but now he has my _absolute_ respect.
To put it differently, he is working in a very niche market with this tool, and if you try to gouge when you are in the niche market, it spreads pretty quick and you are out of business with a broken reputation.
Consider what else DerBauer does, he has to keep that reputation to keep his other more mainstream products like the thermal paste going strong.
There's another thought that they won't cap the market as by the time "saturation" has occurred in what is a very niche market then sufficient capital has been built up to help fund the next project.
On the other hand, a good amount of cost is from the material. It won't create much more profits by selling more in new. Lots will be given to the factory for raw material.
You don't need to apologize for that price. We've all seen the work and attention to detail that you've put into what you do.
You look like HeatoN found a gotfrag forum post saying how old is HeatoN
And just like that, by being open, honest and suggesting an approach that benefits your clientele more than it does yourself, you'll most likely make a decent profit out of this (which you absolutely deserve). What a legend this guy.
Great work Roman! Good idea to verify the function of the 2nd CCD with the thermal camera.
I don't personally have a need for lapping or deliding, but I do deeply appreciate and respect your initiative to bringing high quality products to the market and ensuring your customers can safely use these tools without worry of irreparable damage.
Same, stock CPUs on stock computers, but this is very interesting, and the craftsmanship and care is enjoyable to see. This kind of thing is the community creating their own tools. It's great.
@@gblargg Agreed. I find the engineering aspect quite intriguing.
Same. I won't be doing any of this but can really appreciate the engineering efforts and those that wish to push the envelope to the very extreme. It's akin to those who modify their cars or do engine swaps. I can appreciate a gear heads willingness to take things to a whole other level.
Pedal to the metal!!!! 🤩🤩🤩👍👍👍
@@nexusyang4832 It's comforting to know that I'm saving myself a lot of work to put the heat sink right next to the die and get a few deg C temperature drop.
We already reached out to our account rep at thermal grizzly to get these new tools. We look forward to using them on our computers and providing them to our community! Hopefully they're ready for mass production soon!
nice
Keep up the good work in NC
Hey!! It's Silver Knight!
I haven't delidded any CPU before, but I feel like its time to jump on this. I'm just making sure the AMD platform is something I want to continue with long term. So far, so good. Thank you for taking all of this time and research to bring us these products. Your videos are fun to watch and learn from!!
It's only platform, where you are guaranteed to get new CPU releases all the way to 2025, so I think it's the smartest option.
Well maybe don't. I ruined two cpus that way. This round I was working soooooo careful, but liquid metal tends to roll off, microscopically. Sometimes you won't see it at all. At first it was all good, then motherboard went bye bye.
I ruined 2 gpus and 2 cpus. Last motherboard I destroyed forced me to buy 13900k, because finding z390 motherboard is next to impossible now. Unless you want to spend 300 bucks on motherboard.
Liquid metal is a bit*h
Thermal Grizzly liquid metal graveyarded GTX 1070ti, GTX 1080, i7-8700k, Z370 motherboard, Z390 motherboard.
I made a final decision never to do it again. Liquid metal is too dangerous, even for a very careful person like me.
You have to be very careful on tilting your pc afterwards, as liquid metal can run off, it's not worth it. I delidded 9
I9-900k just fine, but it made my motherboard die, and I was so careful.
I am going to be one of the few to really say: Please don't. It reduced anywhere from 12 to 15 degrees for me, but then eventually liquid metal ran off, if you tilted pc or blew dust with dust blower/compressed canned air.
So, yeah, know that it can happen, be ready to lose parts as the greatest risk.
It just seems the most worth atm. I'm slowly acquiring parts for my next build and I'm 99% sure it's gonna be an AMD build, even tho I was looking forward to finally going Intel for once.
@@atticushexcel9567 You cant make anything idiot proof because idiots are so ingenious
I'm waiting for 3DV and will just Water cool it.
Great work.. I'm TRHILLED to see your product. I have been in this game for a very VERY long time ('87 was my first build) anyway I was a child back then.. We have come so far with technology it's actually crazy to think of a time when it would take a FEW MINUTES to boot my system and I had 1mb of ram between 4 256mb simms. So nice to see you working with and still bucking the machine!
New install time Anthony, about 1 hour and two days for the drivers. lol
maybe next cpu gen we go back to a couple minutes of boot time. my new Ryzen 9 7900X system already takes 2-3x longer to boot than my previous i7-9700KF despite having less and much faster drives lol. Would be interesting to know why it takes so long since the actual cpu performance is leagues beyond the older intel chip once it's done booting.
@@megapro125 that's interesting! I'm running a 2600x and have an nvme boot drive, even with all my startup programs I'm under a minute to boot.
@@AnthonyRBlacker I googled a bit for possible reasons. One factor could be memory checks during the boot process as the old system only had half the memory of the new one and also new main boards having more features that need to load during post.
@@megapro125 Ryzen 7xxx retrains the memory every time you hard power off the PSU, should be a lot faster with soft power cycles.
It was intended to be 7900X, 2 x 6 core CPU. If one CCD does not pass the QC, you can downbin it to 7600X and rewrite the CPU name in ID.
It was done already for 5900X to 5600X and 5950X to 5800X CPUs too.
My 5600x has 2 active CCD..
@@Hi-levels My condolences xD
I personally think that U are AMAZING !! don't forget that. U have been providing such valuable info/tests for us, I do appreciate this and please keep doing a great job! I wish I had a good PC one day! I enjoy watching U! Bartek
Thanks a lot!
I believe both explanations are correct. The 7600X are 79xx to cover the demand, but they are also defective. The first batches always suffer from a higher level of defects. AMD is taking advantage of them for the 7600. This reminds me of the Phenon X6 times, when many Athlon or Phenon X2, X3 cpus were actually X4 versions with cores deactivated, easily "fixable" by the bios. Despite being faulty, most of them worked perfectly on vanilla (no overclocking), I had a few myself.
This also happened frequently with video cards, the first versions of cards like geforce 6200 were actually defective geforce 6600, but most of them could be modded and work normally. There were cards like this on ATI too. This usually happens during launch, and for a short period of time, just the first revision and for the first few months. After a few years, the information spreads over the internet, and a race begins in the used market to find these models, and they go up in price.
That GPU binning...aka "HW units mask" that capped pixel and shader units. NVStrap was a thing...am I that old already
There were actually 2 CCD 5600X and 5800X units as well
Ati x800 gto serie . Yes you can active the extra core
Or the nvidia 6800le to unlock to a nvidia 6800gt core.
Oke you are stuck with ddr1 but still cheap and with sli a lot of power in that time
so they added laser die fusing lol
Your dedication to perfection and quality is admirable. Great video!
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FYI, we call it “hard anodizing” in English too, the direct translation is correct in this case. Keep up the vids!
Reminds me of decades ago where all 386 chips manufactured by Intel were supposed to be 386DX chips with the onboard maths coprocessor but the failure rate of the co-processor unit was high enough that they disabled them and packaged them as 386SX chips at a cheaper price to minimise waste and maximise profit. Then they also then marketed external maths coprocessor chips to make up the difference if you wanted. Disclaimer - this is all from memory so haven't actually googled it to see if my memory is correct 🙂 So is very possible AMD are doing the same thing here (as others have commented) where to minimise waste the "faulty" higher specced chips are having the faulty bits disabled and the chip sold as a lesser model to minimise waste.
New products for Intel as well you say? Will we get a delid tool for LGA1700 this time? Sure the rockit cool version exists, but it always looked a bit sketchy and straight up often deforms the IHS when used. We need a proper quality delid tool to unlock RPL!
Yes RPL delidder and Direct Die Frame already in the works :)
@@der8auer-en Great news, I'll hold off on the scalpel and heatgun then! ;D
The original Threadrippers had 4 chiplets for a 16 core processor. They just rummaged for broken dies and put them onto the substrate to make the mounting pressure the same across the dies. Though I doubt that's the case for the 7600/7700. Still it would be weird that they have an SKU that comes off the line sometimes with 2 dies and sometimes 3. Oh well, the customer usually wouldn't figure out anyway. They'll just read the silkscreened text
I love your transparency around re-use and it makes me want to buy a whole water cooled system just to buy your product.
Now I want a 7000-series CPU just to run direct cooling.
When are you going to upload the R9 7950X delidded results? I feel tempted to buy your tool to get it delided. Seems very convenient to drop the temperatures for machines that are meant to be running 24/7 at full load as it would decrease the need to be cleaning the radiators from dust.
Builds superb fabrication facility, uses it to build world class products, doesn't set the time and date on his thermal imager. Love it.
Never call something "idiot proof." There's always some idiot out there that will prove you wrong.
such a great technical journey..
a long way from Rev. 1 (no more 'breaking' sounds).
Great Job team!
Hyped, thanks for developing this.. Jumping from delided 7980XE to 7950X.
I'd wait for the 7950X3D
@@mitlanderson Why? I am not interested in games, would be buying 13600K/F or the locked chip instead.
Roman, you're such a quality person. Your marketing behind the direct die and delid tool are respectable. I wish we didn't live so far from each other. One of my goals is to grab a beer with you and talk overclocking.
50-60 Euro sounds like a pretty good deal considering you may be able to save that much on your cooler because you don't have to be as aggressive to cool it down ... unless you want to.
I need me some Wera screwdrivers. My grandfather got some in the mid 90s and they're still just as good as day one. You can really beat the snot out of them too. Such high quality
You should redesign the delidder to function with a lever instead of a screw since it takes so many oscillations. Could just hold it in a vice and use a long handle and work it back and forth.
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Adding another expensive milled part compared to standard screws just to win time on a one time operation ?
Just use an impact at that point lmao
Screw mechanism is better for small force increment. I think
The 5600X and 5800X had some dual CCD chips at launch, they were chips that didn't validate as their 12 and 16 core counterparts.
They also had issues with ryzen master.
Man Der8auer is such a good guy. The way he explains his thought process of development, still staying true to the computer modding community. I am so happy for you man that you can make money on the stuff you love to do. Keep on the good work, when I buy anything that is branded with your name I am 100% confident that there has been maximum thought out in it from the customer/modded side of view.
At this point I have several delidders from you. Good shit. Glad you're keeping up with the latest. Looking forward to delidding more soon.
I assume you probably can't say anything definitively yet, but do you believe that delidding will be any different on Ryzen CPUs with 3D V-Cache? Maybe you've tried it on a 5800X3D? As someone with a 5950X neither the 7950X nor 13900K look to be worthwhile upgrades, but Zen 4 X3D might be, especially if there does turn out to be a 7950X3D as has been heavily rumored.
5800X3D being a PGA socket vs SGA makes delidding more difficult
@@robojimtv Well my question was really about whether the 3D V-Cache makes any difference. 5800X3D can't be compared to current Ryzen 7000 models, but could to the other Ryzen 5000 desktop CPUs.
When you took off that heatsink and waiting for the system to turn off, I immediately got a 5 second silent ad for grilling steaks. For a sec I thought you were memeing here.
Second Stage CPU Binning, likely during the BURN-IN test where on CCD gone bad during that particular testing but the other had no issues. Something you can not do with Intel yet and that lowers costs for AMD even further than just the chiplet approach and CPU cores being technically multipurpose like Ryzen, Threadripper, EPIC, etc all using the same CPU cores chiplet. It's one detail that APU's have been missing since the first ZEN series but that looks like is now being addressed. From what I can see next gen APUs will also be a full chiplet based design instead of monolithic, something I can't wait to be ready, specially when they start combining CPU/GPU/NPU etc on the "SOCs".
It would be pretty funny if AMD decided to release "big.LITTLE" CPUs with a poorly-clocking chiplet locked to lower frequencies. Probably not worth the effort for them.
Really appreciate the quality and care that your products are made with. I’m gonna buy a contact frame now
Just wondering, have you tried installing the 7700x into a system and seeing if it'll boot??? I'm curious about how it'll behave as it is
13:57 you should compare the 7600x and 7800x for the resistors on top to see what match and then compare to the 7900x to see what difference they have, you likely need to shift or add a surface resistor to enable the 2nd core die.
I remember a time when Athlon XP processors were sold without a cover, and the need to disassemble them. People often broke the die by forcing too much on one of the corners (by mounting the cooler incorrectly).
Yep, those foam pads helped for the first time mounting but they always shriveled up enough that additional mounts had little room for error.
Excellent work Roman! I can't wait to get my hands on these!
Great work Roman! Now for the "dream" ... make a BIOS that can detect if the CPU has a 2nd CCD (deactivated) and gives you the option to manually enable it ... something like phenomx4 II that you had a "chance" to unlock 2 more cores and make it 6 core 😃
This could be very fun if it could happen, plus the sales of AMD CPUs would sky rocket 😝
My first PC build I specifically bought the 3 core(forget the name) because everyone said you could just unlock the 4th core and bam! You have a phenom II X4. Did it in my bios, worked like a charm and even the system read it as a phenom 4 core lol
I believe it was the Athlon II x3
@@lenwe4205 The Phenom II X3 720 BE were kinda easy to unlock into X4, provided the motherboard used an SB710 chip (with ACC enabled on the BIOS).
Kudos on your transparent explanations and open commercial attitude! That builds huge trust right there.
Friendly language tip: much better to say "foolproof" than "idiot-proof". The former is time-honored and accepted in this use with no negative connotation. "Idiot-proof" is disdainful, too strongly implying that some or many of your customers will be idiots. There's a big difference _in this particular usage only_ . Your English in general is of course excellent; I could only wish to be so capably bilingual.
Can't wait, hope there will be an option to buy the bracket, delidder, and the new liquid metal in 1 bundle.
yes please
Great work, I'm hoping to try delidding for the first time very soon and the tools you make give me much more confidence doing this :)
Direct die cooling brings back AMD Athlon XP memories.
It would be great to see if the disabled CCD can be enabled for extra cores maybe at a bit higher voltage much similar like core unlocking on the AM2+, AM3 CPUs.
I wonder if it was a defective higher end CPU OR they simply killed off a part of it to meet demand for the lower end skus?..i wonder if it could be re-enabled/brought back to life somehow even if it was not 100% stable? This stuff fascinates me! and would defiantly make an interesting video attempting to re-enabling it if possible.
Can't wait for the delid/frame to be available! I've been playing with my 7950x and I am pretty sure I am at the limit of what I can do without better cooling =D Keep up the good work!
I have never had any intention of overclocking before, so I never looked into these kind of techniques. However, with the 'interesting' choices that AMD has made with AM5 I do feel like I should perhaps try my hand at this delidding and maybe even water-cooling. If I do, I know to find your channel/store :)
I wish there was a better direct supplier for thermal grizzly in North america. It should not be this difficult for consumers to acquire genuine retail products close to their date of release.
I thought they always did things like this with multi CCD chips of which one module is defective.
99% of the time the 6 core and 8 core parts are single CCD (8 cores per CCD)
My WC stopped working today, my 7980XE hit 110C twice, and it didn't shut down or anything, when I checked the logs and saw that the pretty boy was at 110C, I was quite shocked.
No damage so far and I replaced the pump.
Awesome! I will definitely be one to buy this. Now could you please list the supported EK water blocks that would fit your device. I don't want to buy something that wouldn't work in the end. Also would like to keep like metals with each other. 🙏 And if you have a liquid metal that won't eat up the water block that'd be great 😏
Love watching the development process! I appreciate your efforts to develop what I consider reasonably priced products and tools that help the pc community overcome manufacturer choices.
yeah it has to be if Jay gets one 😃
we are getting to the point where direct die cooling is going to be a must cause the nm is exceeding the heat transfer of an ihs in the very near future. So his work and research is going to be paramount in the future for cpu manufacturers. and those tighter tolerances are going to drive the cpu and motherboard prices inherently
I can't help but notice every chip you've delidded had two CCDs. Could that be why the 7700x failed delidding?
No, you can clearly see what killed the 7700x, it was by part of the PCB being crushed in the tool and destroying the substrate. Both the 7600x and 7700x are single CCD 99% of the time, a 2 CCD 7600x is practically a unicorn.
how can we be sure we put enough pressure on the cooler for it to cool but not enough for it to crush the silicon?
That 7600X has two CCX's because it is binned down part. Could you try activating the extra cores at a low clock? It could make an interesting video.
most likely fused off
@@FakeMichau could be but do you think they spent extra money in extra steps?
Solution-oriented, a good price and sustainable. Even recommended by the makers. When I see businesses operate in such a fashion, I'm way more likely to buy from them than any ad will help, thank you.
I'm betting the 7600x is just a 7900x with a disabled failed CCD.
Afaik CCD's need to each have the same number of active cores, I imagine this is 2 groups of 6 core CCD's with 3 disabled in each group (so 2 Ryzen 7600X CPU CCD's).
@@Nicholas_Steel ah and thats why the 2nd ccd stayed cold at boot up...or maybe the second ccd is just disabled compleatly...would make more sense...
The little voltage regulator chip active is probably kept awake by the USB controller. So that the USB ports can keep devices power-only devices alive or be used for charging, when the system is off. You can disable "USB always on" (and RGB always on ofc) in the UEFI/bios. Some always on RGB accents are actually powered through the same USB controller, so turning off "USB always on" turns off the RGB accents too.
A quirk of USB always on, at least on older Intel boards, is that depending on how your keyboard and mouse is wired (a lot of Razer stuff does this), if you hit a key or click the mouse after powering on, the keyb/mouse RGB will come on. And never turn off, until next system shutdown.
Glad you mentioned the lapping stuff, I didn't originally understand why he didn't lap even more of the ihs
Not sure what the confusion is here in this video, it's comon practice for cpu's that don't make the grade at aa higher level to be rebranded and have whatever failed parts disabled to make it a lower grade cpu. It's just more obvious with the amd chiplet approach.
It would be great if Intel and AMD released CPUs with the heat spreader. Obviously phsyical damage shouldn't be warrantied and of course they should also have a short warranty as well.
5:04 tut-tut-tut, tightening a hex head screw with a torx wrench, I'm gonna have to deduct points for that
haha I was waiting for someone to notice :D I couldn't find the hex wrench
Can't wait to see what this process looks like on the x3d chips
Great work and thanks for everything you do for everyone in the gaming community.
At 12:05, the CPU-Z version being used is one revision out of date. Intel's 13th gen CPU socket 1700 mechanism appears to still have the same defects as the 12th gen mechanism, no?
5:30 That was my remark on the first video... it felt like you were breaking it with that much force lol
Just had an interesting thought... I was reading the IHS thickness is 3.6mm. That's almost exactly the thickness of a standard Peltier module.
I wonder if the tolerances are loose enough that a standard mounting bracket could be used with a Peltier module sandwiched in between, and if that could make a useful difference?
It was same with the 5600x. The ryzen master sometimes wasnt showing temps or hwinfo was showing 2 ccds.
The premier PC enthusiast channel. Always interesting content.
Having a two dies PCB in a 7600x actually makes a lot of sense...
If Amd knows some dies may not be fully functional the best way to recycle them is to scrap them inside "dual dies" chips and then make more accurate selection depending on numbers of functionnal cores... (ie 12 cores, 10 cores, or even 8 and 6 cores)
While NVIDIA is making houses catch on fire AMD deliver 2 CCDs Ryzen 5 7600X...Now I begin to dream in Phenom days again!!!
If one of the CCDs were broken, shouldn’t they catch it before they put it on the interposer? Most chips are tested on the wafer before they are even cut and packaged. Though now that I write this … there are some issues you only catch after packaging (which is why most manufacturers test before and after packaging).
Wonder if de-lidding the X3D versions will be possible!
Man this brings back memories of seeing Guruji (Shamino) use copper chunks for quick test when swapping a board during x48-x58 era for xtreme oc sessions
Maybe you could fix the forcing screw into the base plate so that you could just loosen and tighten the bolt instead of going side to side, like press a bearing into the base plate and press the bolt into the ID of the bearing. Just a thought. Looks like a nice tool though, good work!
Most likely that one of the devices died after/during packaging and they just fused the bad one out and left the good one enabled. That way they do not have to throw the whole MCP away.
The same thing happened in a lot of Zen 2 Cpus. I own a Ryzen 5 3600 that has two CCDs (And even the bios recognizes them)
I’m so excited for this product, I know my best friend is eagerly awaiting this for his 7950x
@4:25 Well, you failed your MBA pre-test, but you earned a *like* and a purchase from me! Lol
For noisy times, you can use a directional mic. They work amazingly well!
I guess the most reasonable explanation is that both CCDs were 6-core working parts before mounting them onto the CPU PCB, so it was meant to be a 7900X, but one of them went out on the process and they had to make-do with what was already on the table and relabeled it as a 7600X to get profit out of it.
ACC(or UCC) ON : 7600x -> 7900x(?) Unlock CPU core was AMD’s traditional.
Why not use poured ceramic instead of metal?
Kinda reminds me the old k6-II. Which some were internally a k6-III with more cache. You could configure that changing stuff in those capacitors
Maybe the die was damaged during the mounting process and instead of a dead chip they just turned off the other die to make it a lower model chip. Maybe that one die would hit higher speeds being from a higher core count model chip
Your products seem really professional
Perhaps it can be unlocked like cache in Duron, by repositioning the transistor or the pencil mod :)
If you have naked 7900x or 7950x can you check the layout of those to see the pattern ?
No cant hear any Noise in background but sweet music of machines
Roman gave his cat & a bunch of preschoolers and grandma a delider tool & they had no tWrouble wrecking the Ryzen CPU's oops deliding it :) Grandma used it to cut cookies
the cat did well 1st fastest time because he watches everything in the workshop & levs up purrfect work mr meowski
Super cool! Can't wait for the launch.
Keep up the great work. Definitely want to try the delid tool.
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Good stuff Roman, keep up the good work and hope everything works out for you as well.
Nice work - results seem consistent.
Had a potentially stupid idea a little while ago; to vaccuform something like aluminum or copper foil to the surface of the die, with watercooling directly on the other side of that foil.
Thanks for such interesting content!