That is why I have never been an "early adopter". I never buy anything on its initial issue, especially vehicles. I'd bet good money that in a couple years time they will have 99% of that sorted out. But I'm glad somebody did it. Thank you for taking the risk and I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. I genuinely hope that the Grenadier becomes a real success. Cheers.
No. The problems are unfortunate. However, never buy from a country that should build boats instead of cars. I’ve never seen a UK dealers cars that don’t spend more time in the garage than on the road. Here in Canada for the rough winters and off-roading…. I’d buy a Toyota. Not a garbage car.
In 1992 I had an 11 seat Defender and had to register it as a Bus! MoT every twelve months, service every 3000 miles. On the upside, I used Bus lanes when travelling in Cities, especially London
You made some good points here, which I didn't know or realise (not having seriously considered this vehicle, also having had a Defender 200TDi CSW). Certainly things that SHOULD have been mentioned to you prior to purchasing. Much appreciated, valid commentary!
Interesting video. I’ve been an early adopter in the past and inevitably there are issues. I’ve decided to sit this one out for a while as I’m very happy with my Defender 110 First Edition but I might request a test drive out of curiosity.
Really appreciated your candour and honest review, rare to see as on TH-cam I keep finding a harsh mix of either old school Land Rover purists or ineos reviewers who seem to have been paid to only say good things. I am going to wait for them to fix their product production. Thank you for being an early adapter. Without more people like you products would never be improved and progress wouldn’t happen.
Thanks for the honest end user review. Every bit of info is good for those in the market for one. The glue showing etc is a bit like the defender finish quality, even so I’ve had three of those from new and still would get another if available. Not keen on the hairdresser edition jlr have brought out.
Here was I enjoying your positive reviews to date 😅 Well, if you’re getting out, now is the time! While the buzz and demand is high. Glad you broke even on it. On the ev version, that’s gonna be one heavy car! Good luck to you both 👍
I doubt the pick-up will be under the weight you mention! I think your findings are genuine and well founded, as for the electric version, it will probably be the heaviest version of all! Personally I'd rather have a new Defender 110 if the reliability were what it should be! Good luck moving forward, Cheers.
Frankly the lack of stop/start would be a bonus for me. It’s very interesting that the glasses station wagon is classed as a commercial vehicle by the DVLA. That’s the first time I’ve heard that one. I actually ordered a commercial version with the decreased rear legroom and steel panels at the back which Ineos claim is “certified as a commercial vehicle”. As with the above model, it certainly is with the DVLA but, crucially, not with HMRC for tax purposes. So no possibility of reclaiming the VAT or tax relief as a cost against a business. That means zero cost advantage over the glass version. Needless to say I cancelled the order and had a lucky escape. Just had delivery of a Ford Ranger Wildtrak which has lovely steering in all conditions, brilliant technology and performance, a quality finish and great performance from its 2.0 twin turbo engine and 10 speed auto. A new full time 4wd mode for on-road use along with an amazing technology pack and very quiet interior. Nice comfortable ride, although naturally on the firm side. No issue with insurance and as an additional vehicle and introductory no-claims discount from the NFU bring it in under £500 per year. On top of which, due to the VAT situation with Granadier, a full £25,000 saving on purchase price. Very very disappointed by Grenadier and their deceptive marketing.
What did you mean about the fact that your Grenadier was considered a commercial vehicle? Is that because it is a specific version or are all Grenadier versions considered commercial?
I recently bought a Land Cruiser 76 If these had been around for a few more years I might have bought one Thankyou for letting us know about the after sales service issues
US consumer here. Thanks for the quick review and findings. Early reservations here, will help me later if I move forward with my order. I always wanted a Defender but didn't want to burn $ for a 1997 model. I always liked the look of the Ineos; I thought they nailed it, but hopefully they will get it together before the US release. For now, I just purchased a Lexus GX460, which is 60/40 on looks but definitely more reliable.
Good review. Some very good points put out there that I would not have been aware of if I had been buying one. The Defender is No 1 on my list of next cars but I might seriously have considered the Grenadier but this has put me off as 95% of my driving would have been on tarmac and 5% of that in snow so no chance of buying a car with vague steering running at reduced speeds on dual carriageways. Of the three Defenders I have driven I loved two of them but one I found seriously under powered it just felt sluggish which I didn't feel in the others not sure why but I didn't buy it and ended up with the i-Pace which we love and is perfect for our needs except the range in very cold Scottish winters.
The vague steering comment completely baffles me. After 2000 miles in my Grenadier I have never felt the steering to be an issue. Might be down to me having driven older Defenders since the early 80's.
Thank you. The first review I've seen that has mentioned the commercial vehicle issues. Sadly it is a long way from the original Defender ethos: like all similar vehicles nowadays it is too heavy, far too wide and far too complex. Most farmers are moving on to the bigger quad bikes instead.
Compared to our petrol fieldmaster it certainly seems a) yours isn’t well finished, b) the speed limit issues for a commercial type are a total pain in the backside, c) the steering is genuinely fine (+ start stop SHOULD work as ours does) Hope you also get allocation to a pick-up…ours arrives in December I believe Good luck with the next vehicle
Compared with our 2009 Defender, both the Grenadier and new Defender use more fuel, have less ground clearance, lower payload and cost much more when new, so how is this progress?
This is progress because it looks old and it "aparents" to be old-school technology, but in reality you and I know this is overrated... So yeah... It's not progress, is just progress to the manufacturer pocket. This should be costing like 32-40k tops, this proofs how tendencies and media works to promote things...
Brilliant honest review, and very helpful. I am in the US.and as an early deposit holder, I need to order by June 30th to achieve delivery by year end. Decided I am going to cancel and wait for the Cybertruck which as an early deposit holder I can wait until summer next year. Love the Ineos, but as of yet no dealer network of who is handling it has been announced, and with numerous posts in regard to quality control, and at $90k plus here, I’ll wait until they get it together. Thanks for taking the time to review and help us perspective buyers Stateside.
Those seem like really quite different vehicle choices. Mind you I can't imagine anyone who's buying the cybertruck as a serious vehicle rather than for its looks?
@@cjeam9199 I feel like the cybertruck looks incomplete. Like they just got the metal sheets fresh from the factory, welded it on and called it day lol. Looks hideous
Stateside here. Thank you for your candid assessment. I removed myself from the pre-order reservation once my head prevailed over my heart, and went back to practical utility and durability over aesthetic which Grenadier just hit it out of the ballpark. Like you said, you're better off with a truck like a mid size Toyota Tacoma which comes with plenty after market support. You can customize with bed racks or enclose it with a bed cab. Not to mention the flexibility to customize suspension setup to satisfy your 95/5 road/offroad drive. Personally, a full size pickup like a Tundra will be even better, but we're kind of spoilt here with often large parking spots and wide roadways here in most of the country.
That speed limit thing isn't enforced and the rule dates back to the 1987, hence why the weight is specified in Imperial tons in the legislation, and the rather odd 2040kg people refer to now - at least I've never heard of it being enforced. I did read a bulletin from DVSA saying it would be unenforceable, but i can't find it just now. The Amaroks I've had are over that weight and I never had a problem, law enforcement always ignored it. But be interesting to hear if anybody has indeed had it enforced against them.
@@shaungilmartin1505 I don't think so, I live in Scotland, I've run VW Amaroks since 2017, around 100k miles in Scotland, use the A9 regularly, pass mobile traps regularly, never had a problem.
If you want a pickup just buy the1.9 Isuzu D-max! It is under the Light commercial weight limit so no extra speed limits and gives amazing economy and euro 6 without adblue if you get the right model so no ULEZ charges. Mine has averaged 39.4mpg (UK) over the 6000 miles i have done in it! Leather, aircon, everything you need! I got excited about the Grenadier when it was announced but soon wrote it off the short list along with many others including the X type Merc and Ranger Raptor.
great review, I was one of the first to order here in Australia, I cant explain how much I was looking forward to mine arriving. After a two year wait and putting my money where their promises were, I recieved my contract only to find they had just about every detail wrong, when I called them to change the contract I was told "verry sorry but your contract cannot be changed because the car is already sheduled for production" my options were to take the spec I didnt order or get on the end of the line. There is no way I could ever trust a company who would treat a customer with that level of disrespect, I pulled my order imediatley and purchased a landrover just to stick it to them. The Ineos Greadier could have been all and much more than they suggested it could be but it looks like they are just like every other manufacturer, but they have less support and terrible customer service.
Hi, I’m in Australia I can understand your disappointment. If u placed your order that long ago, it would have been well before price rises etc Original pricing in Australia, included LCT. Then, ( in mid 2022 ? ) when Ineos advised of getting LCT exemption, prices came down. But, not long after this, they then had the first of a few price rises… Seems as though a few stuff ups happened at dealer level and HO level, if they were going to build your vehicle, in a spec that was not what u ordered ?? My understanding is that a logical process was in place with customers who had placed an order, which meant that the model / specs / options u want, we’re confirmed a few times, particularly when it got to the point of Australian HO needing to confirm what they wanted built for people who had already ordered a Grenadier, in the past ?? It’s now June. Grenadier is in Australia, but still no deliveries ! Why ? I’m hearing of 2 possible major issues # 1 Payload is under 1 tonne, so Grenadier should not be classed as a Commercial vehicle, which gets it LCT exemption. If the LCT exemption does not happen, Ineos would need to go back to every customer, and advise that the vehicle will now be at least $ 10 k more ! People won’t cop that # 2 Back in 2021, it was announced in Australia that ADR would make it compulsory for any all New Passenger vehicle to have AEB, by March 2023. Seems as though Ineos have missed that date ! Ineos originally expected to have Grenadier in Australia by end of 2022, so they were not worried about the March 2023 cut off date, and Commercial vehicles don’t need to comply with this new ADR requirement regarding AEB… But Commercial vehicle status now up in the air, and it’s past March 2023. Ineos Australia might be trying to sort out a huge problem Hence why NO Grenadier have got to dealers for customer deliveries… 🤷🏻♂️
@@shawtravis7384 c’mon - he’s misordered and perhaps got the wrong end of the stick with the dealer We all make mistakes Try and be less troll-like and be forgiving - he’s obviously upset
I’ve had the same experience when my contract was different to the vehicle spec on the ineos portal. I’ve been waiting 6 weeks for a revised contract. Ineos were very apologetic.
You’d expect better from that price of vehicle, I’m sure it will get better eventually. It has potential, I like it but can understand the issues you have raised. Personally I’d be waiting a bit longer for the teething problems to be sorted.
Here in the US I test drove one in Pasadena, CA and it feels a lot like my Mitsubishi Montero which I have driven 250,000 miles with a lot of off roading and over soft sand dunes. It’s been an amazing and durable vehicle that never once let me down or got stuck. I want to drive to Death Valley but fear of it finally dying is real so I ordered a grenadier. The review doesn’t mention anything other than steering (which I didn’t even notice being odd during test drive) so I’ll keep my order. They say it should be ready this month which is great. I’m about 1,000,000th in line for a cybertruck so that might be a few years of waiting.
There are way more and worse issues than mentioned in this video like how you the side windows are so low you can't even look out them without lowering your head in an uncomfortable position.
Thanks for the honest thoughts. There should be no compromise when buying a brand new vehicle. Fit and finish, proper specifications, dealership response/responsibility regarding warranty and complaints as well as dealer networks are all part of the high price paid for this vehicle. It’s a hard pass for me.
I have a 2022 Defender 90 ( love it), ordered the Grenadier. Should arrive end of march. Will see if we like the Grenadier, steering is something to get used too.
For me the new shape defenders are a lot nicer and more comfortable. If you’ve owned an old defender you will enjoy this more. Let me know how you get on with it.
In terms of "commercial" vs "passenger" and UK speed limits, bear in mind that JLR took the conscious decision to declare all Puma Defenders as "commercial". Of greater importance to many purchasers will be the aspect of LEZ type restrictions and their application to commercial vehicles.
If the car is not for you then that’s absolutely fine , I totally get it , I canceled my order as even though DVLA treat this vehicle as a commercial ,HMRC don’t so no vat reclaim for business users . Big own goal on ineos part .
Are you sure this doesn't depend on model? There's a difference between the 5-seat commercially rated station wagon and the 5-seat passenger station wagon. The former is obviously aimed at farmers and I'd be surprised if Ineos haven't made sure they can get a vat rebate on it.
@@idabrit I am a farmer and cancelled mine because the ‘certified commercial’ five seater with reduced second row legroom and panel sides does not qualify for VAT and tax relief due to not having the required one ton carrying capacity. It has killed the commercial version and the forthcoming pickup stone dead in the UK. The DVLA decision to class the passenger version as a commercial is just as damaging due to the speed limit and insurance issues raised. In my opinion the Grenadier is doomed as far as any commercially viable sales go after the initial excitement dies down, which will be very rapid.
Sold old Defender 130 Puma as worried about oil pump/ reliability. Looked at Grenadier but decided to buy tried and tested G Wagen 350 diesel 463 my third G ; secondhand 10 yrs old 60000 miles easy life in Essex, we overland so ideal for tracks and trails . I has a 96 l tank ,three diff locks and low ratio. Much more comfortable than old Defender and cost less than new Grenadier by £30k with a slower depreciation… still you know all this as you have had one!
I believe this is normal for a first production. When you firs develop a concept, a new venture, a new product, you start with a dream and develop it. You execute the idea the best way you can and start selling it. Issues will be present in the first editions, but as sales come in, cash flow allows you to stay alive and correct this issues and finally deliver a issue free product. I see your point, but from a new company, new product stand point, I also see why theses issues are present. Just take a look at the first reviews of the first year Teslas were sold. Misalignment of parts, software issues, charging problems, etc, etc. Let's hope that INEOS continues to fix this things in time and have a great Defender replacement in the close future. And that they also fix the way the Grenadier is legally identified so you can either drive as a commercial o recreation vehicle too.
I’ve seen a couple of other reviewers mention fit and finish issues. Really not acceptable in a vehicle that costs (in the US) almost as much as a new Defender 110 - which is a much more complex vehicle as well. I was pretty stoked about the Grenadier early on, but now it looks like I’ll be asking for my deposit back, and going with a tried and true American pick-up truck instead.
@@dipseadiver 100% isn't literal 2x the cost. it was to say it is confidently more expensive then a mid spec defender in the US. A mid spec defender is 80k. If you spec'ed out a grenadier not even with everything. Just a trial master with say some extra bits its more expensive than 80k, and thats not including destination taxes or anything else the dealership in the us might price on top. I also wouldn't even consider the grenadier similar spec to a mid tier defender. Its probably closer to the barebones stock defender that comes in around 55k. Defender is just a better value for me. Others can argue the value of the grenadier. But it really just feels like early adopter small volume tax to me. Also considering how much they originally wanted it to be which is 60k. Which is an indicator of their original intent and value of the car. The raise in the cost from ineos isn't reflective of the pricing they had in Europe. The cost overall from auto companies across the globe has gone up from the pandemic and inflation. But not at the high rate that ineos taken to raise the cost. I just can't help to wonder about Sir Jim Ratcliffs financial issues with laws being passed that would hurt his oil company. Or his money spent on Man U. That he wants to make more income on grenadier now vs down the road. usually new auto companies will go with opening an IPO to get investment for growth. But here it just feels like the first buyers are the ones subsidizing the growth with no return just a depreciating car. I'm still keen on following along cause as production grows and initial interest fade the prices will have to come down for people who dropped out initially to be interested to come back. Love to see what they do with the pick up and a smaller SUV that will have to be a completely different platform and not be ladder frame if it wants to be electric. Cause then they will be competing in a even more crowded market as Rivian is coming out with a smaller SUV, defender has a fully electric coming in the next year or so and so will Jeep.
@@3ddiy Firstly, please let me apologise for my flippant comment regarding 100% discounts. In UK, if something costs £100.00 and I get a 50% discount, the item will cost me £50.00. Therefore, 100% discount.... The point is I was being an arse and there was no excuse for that. Regarding Defender or Grenadier. I don't think there is really any debate. If you want a beautiful design, brilliant on road handling, good residual's whilst in warranty, credibility at the mall or school yard, it has to be the new Defender. If however, you want something more brutalist, individual, focussed, 'out from the crowd', the Grenadier is the one to go for. It is not a Defender rival. It is more a cut price, old school G-Wagon. Perhaps the Jeep would be a closer competitor than the Defender. On the pricing front. Here in the UK Defenders of an equivalent spec are far more expensive than the Grenadier and come with the added worry that they will not actually get you to your destination. I haven't yet seen, in any of the forums I follow, a breakdown involving an actual breakdown or recovery of the new Grenadier. I already own the new Grenadier and consider it a worthy successor to my old style Defender. For you I suspect you will be much happier with the new Tesla Cyber truck or whatever you choose. 'Horses for courses', as we say in the UK.
I took a long hard look at the pair of 2 seater commercials on display (along with others) at the Bath & West Show yesterday, when I could fight my way to the front. Build quality looked great to me. Nothing out of place, no glue or trim issues of note. They were customer vehicles from Gloucester way (I believe). I’ll be ply lining mine, as I do with all my vans, so I’m not worried about minor niggles. As for speed limits? Do your research before you buy. It’s your responsibility to know what speeds you can and cannot do on various types of road. It’s not up to the manufacturer/supplier to sit you down and go through the Highway Code with you. I really hope you find what you’re looking for, and am sorry your Grenadier wasn’t the right one for you. Good luck.
I’ve gone for the 2 seater as well. I’ll be interested to see how yours looks ply lined as I’m wanting to do similar. Do you have any ideas or sketches as to how your going to get it to fit round the arches and rear doors etc ? Thanks Olly.
@@stevemumbling7720 it’s difficult to state the curb weight as the configuration system offers a number of OEM options that would result in a significant increase in weight; namely the front winch (plus updated suspension), the bumpers for other markets (which are steel), and other accessories such as rock sliders , different wheel/tyre types etc. they all weigh more, so it would be as confusing as the government’s guidance on speed limits for car derived vans and dual purpose vehicles. I’m not making excuses for Ineos or their representative suppliers; I suspect they may have dropped a small bollock there, but as previously mentioned, customers (for every product that falls under ambiguous legislation) need to do their homework first, as best they can, before signing along the dotted line. However, with hindsight not being an option, I’m grateful that you’ve raised the topic for the rest of us. Such a pity you had to find out the way you did. Again, good luck.
@@Grenadier2024 Hi Olly. I have my Mercedes Citan vans ply lined when ordering from my dealer. But there are plenty of ply lining companies who can offer a bespoke lining, as long as they have access to either the vehicle or precise measurements. I’m awaiting a response from Gearmate (UK company) whom I’ll be asking to design and produce a shelving/split level module for the cargo area. I carry a number of pelicases and solar generators, so will need both robust and secure racking etc. I’ll let you know how I get on (once my Grenny arrives; hopefully Aug/Sept). Robin.
@@robinireland810 I suppose they could have stated an approximate weight range for different models with different accessories. This is the first time I have heard of different speed restrictions for different weight commercial vehicles. We don't have that here in Australia.
We have ours now and love it. A few things a bit annoying but its an off road vehicle that can also be used on road. If you dont need an off road vehicle then buy a road car. Plenty of them around. The whole vision from the start was aimed at this goal. Then people buy them and say i dont really need a car to use off road.
@@johnhebenton1525 That is exactly right for the two 'certified commercial’ versions. Not too sure why the van version, the one with no second row seats, doesn’t qualify with HMRC but for the panelled five seater it is because it has way below the minimum payload limit required of at least one ton. The empty weight of the Grenadier, of often 2.9 tons, only gives a 600kg payload while remaining within the 3.5 ton maximum laden weight limit for this class of vehicle and driving license category. Shouldn’t make any difference to the van but is all important for a vehicle with a second row of seats.
@@thebrandtour1469 oh nooo Rusty Cruiser is already rusting on the factory line. LC's body sheets are not galvanized, unlike Ineos. Toyotas are red from rust underneath after the first winter.
Looks great but I've been sceptical of the build quality. If there is no attention to detail w/ the finish, what surprises are lying in wait under the hood two years out. Thanks for the heads up.
There is no chance the pickup will be light enough for the dual use speed limit classification. High spec Rangers and Hilux and the new Amarok aren't either.
Surely being registered as a commercial vehicle is a show stopper for most people, over and above the rerstricted speed limits and insurance issues. I have a 2000 registered Defender TD5 110 CSW (had it since 2008), and it is regstered as a commercial vehicle .There were a few years (I think) when they were registered as commercial vehicles (a mistake in my opinion). Because of that, for example, drving into London is £100. As a commercial vehicle, won't it become harder and harder to drive into cities...I may be mistaken. I registered interest and configured an Ineos Grendadier, but in the end stuck with the Defender (which I'm spending £20k on upgrading). I know it won't ever drive like a Grendadier, but having heard the 'commercial vehicle' issue, I'd have done exactly the same as you and sold it.
I’m an Australian owner. It does drive like a truck but that’s to be expected as it’s been made for a purpose. I bought mine before the price rise so in Australian terms I saved $30k.
I appreciate your review. As a former H1 owner for 15 years, I think you buy a vehicle going in eyes wide open and knowing what you want the vehicle to do for you. The Grenadier seems to be built for off-road, and not so much for creature comforts. If you compare it to the SUV luxury brands, you’ll probably be a little disappointed. I give them high marks for starting a new company in a very competitive space and I’m sure things will work out, but the market is for explorers, IMO. I will say this, if the Land Rover experience is anything, this first generation will be a collectors item in the future.😊
It seems that either this is an opinion paid for by Ineos' competitors (Jeep, Land Cruisers from Toyota), or the now unsatisfied former owner of the Grenadier doesn't really know what he wants. After selling Grenadier, he bought... Toyota GR86. Apparently, it meets his expectations more than Ineos. Like you, I am also rooting for the manufacturer of Ineos, because he has done the impossible: he stood like David against Goliath. A small manufactory versus big corporations, with incalculable budgets for "black PR". Jaguar Land Rover (JLR), Jeep and Toyota were all in an uproar when Sir Radcliffe (Ineosa's manufacturer) faced a positive response from potential customers who had been waiting years for a real off-roader, and a plastic toy for teenagers like the Wrangler JK or JL. JLR, in an act of desperation, filed a lawsuit against Ineos - which is downright pathetic and infantile. Toyota quickly designed the Land Cruiser J25 to bounce some clientele back to Ineos for a new retro-style offroader. Jeep is just looking at it (maybe it will learn its lessons and end the toy-like interior design and design it along the lines of the Grenadier or at least the Commander XK/XH). Unfortunately, Ineos hit a very difficult time for the company's development - a pandemic, war in Russia and Ukraine (a potentially huge market), the West vs. China trade war, Brexit (tariffs in the EU), the specter of a great recession in the white man's countries, and who knows if not the Third World War, have seriously hampered Grenadier's debut. For my part, I wish them the best. Ineos Grenadier is the first car that was not manufactured to stretch the owner on service costs - the owner gets full documentation and access to the car's diagnostics. In addition, he can service it at any Bosch Services. A car for the owner, not a greedy corporation.
I'm sorry, but its like hitech electrical goods. You never buy the first in the shops because the series 2 is always coming soon after. That rear door finishes me, and I've got a Trooper.
Commercial insurance : it's sold as such a vehicle ( when it arrives this month ) in Oz , so that may be a problem here too . Road Fund is more for commercial here , I do know .
Meant to be like that is bullshit. Every new manufacture has issues. It's how you resolve these issues for the customer that sets your brand apart. Good luck with your journey.
Interesting and honest video. On the speed limit point, from the number of full-sized vans and pick-ups (including Discovery Commericals, Ford Rangers etc) who drive around at exactly the same speed as the rest of the traffic I'd say 99% of drivers and 99% of police officers don't know or care. I don't think a future Grenadier pick-up will make any difference as to qualify as a Car-Derived Van and have normal speed limits, the maximum laden weight of the vehicle has to be under 2 tonnes. Not the empty weight. No way on earth any Grenadier is going to fall into that bracket.
He is describing the regulations for a dual purpose commercial vehicle. Ie van with 2nd row of seats with rear windows or 4wd vehicles. 2040kg max unlaiden without fuel or driver.
@@simono4991 that makes sense - thinking of the old Astra, Corsa, Fiesta and Punto vans which weigh about the same as an alloy wheel on a new Discovery commercial 😂
A commercial vehicle is a commercial vehicle and it doesn’t matter it’s weight, insurance will be for a commercial vehicle. Going non commercial on a pickup will I’m sure have it’s issues. But like you say it’s all about what you need it primarily for. Pickups are classed as vans so it won’t matter wether you get a commercial or not, there may still be issues for you where you can take it or what you are allowed to do with it.
Interesting you state build quality (finish) and the fact it's a commercial vehicle for insurance and speed limits...... So, what makes you think the pickup version will be any different???
It won’t be. Hopefully they might sort some of the quality issues given that everyone is saying the same and improve their customer service. I’m 99% certain the pick-up will still be too heavy to be able to do normal speed limits but one can hope.
@@thebrandtour1469 The speed limit laws are out of date and need to be reviewed. A 38 seater bus can be driven at 70MPH on a dual carriageway but a Ford Transit Connect is limited to 60MPH,
Who's enforcing the commercial vehicle speed limits? Cameras aren't for certain and you'll only be pulled if your speeding in a bus or a lorry or generally driving like a clown. Most of the vans on the motorway are doing 80+ People are saying it's expensive but the 4x4 hardware looks top notch, anyway good luck for your replacement vehicle.
Speed camera vans and modern fixed cameras as well as portable police cameras such as used by patrol officers from cars or motorbikes are linked to the DVLA, so automatically take account of the appropriate speed limit for the vehicle. Lorries are mostly limited to 56mph these days while buses can drive at 70 on motorways like cars. Cars and vans do exceed speed limits but a proportion, in the thousands, get caught and fines nationwide daily.
Interesting about how much effect a commercial vehicle will have on your driving, possibly not something many people would have thought of. On the other hand, sounds like you need a Volvo XC70 or something like that.
I'm glad in America we don't deal with that commercial vehicle stuff for something that small. I think for us commercial vehicles are like semi trucks and dump trucks something over 26,000 gross lb
Insuring mine was a doddle; went to LV, my current insurer, within 5 minutes I'm covered, including transferring NCD, all the legal stuff they need to tell me etc. That it is an N1 and you didn't realise that there are different speed limits is sort of down to you not being au fait with the nations speed limits. My daily, until tomorrow, is a pick up, well over the 2T mark. I'm not encouraging anyone to exceed the speed limit, but would you do 80 in your car on a motorway? 70 on a dual carriageway in an N1 like the Grenadier is no different. ( Don't try it in a pre 2016 Ford Ranger as the brakes are shit!) I guess they're not for everyone though, so sincerely, all the best finding your right vehicle.
I read something that said at some point, all new cars will be governed to the actual speed limits of the road. Which no doubt will piss off most BMW and AUDI drivers as said limits don't seem to apply to them. I reckon there's gonna be a hell of a lot of new unsold cars in 2030........
I live in the U.S. and went to our local dealer to buy one. After spending a few hours driving it I returned with a shocking discovery. I feel there are way better vehicles that can everything this ineos can do but more. I have some experience with the Mercedes G550 and on the used market they can be found for similar money to the ineos and thought why would I have an ineos over a G550 or other options. To my surprise the dealer took a 2020 200 series Land Cruiser in on trade for an ineos and that had me really puzzled, why would you trade that perfect Toyota for something that is unknown and not very nicely built. So I left the dealership in a 2020 Land Cruiser for a lot less than the ineos and this 200 series was always my dream vehicle to own so I can’t see why you would want the ineos. The motor is not going to be reliable, the materials used are cheap plastics and the company itself might not exist in a few years. I would rather have a G550, my 200 series or big Chevy 2500 diesel or Ram 2500 diesel before this ineos.
The fit and finish bits are pretty normal for an upstart car company. People forget how much institutional knowledge is in the average cheap Ford or Toyota. The best thing that could happen to this design is if a major player bought the Grenadier arm of Ineos and started building the truck (hopefully without too much redesign of it). Someone like Mazda would be perfect as they don't have any competing products.
Interesting you didn't mention two features which would be a red flag for me - 1. The truly appalling fuel consumption, and 2. the cramped (RHD) driver's footwell, caused by the postioning of the exhaust under the floor. (No problem with LHD vetsions apparently).
Id say some of your reasons are home goals and trying to blame ineos for them is a little bit of cope, the weight and speed restrictions have always been there and as for the insurance im guessing you must have had it on collection. Build quality wise, its the first production run for a brand new vehicle, its bound to happen and should he addressed by ineos under warranty. However your very last statement in the video was "wait for the pickup or the electric version" if you think its heavy now wait for the electric version, vehicles like this were never designed to be electric.
It surprising how many people are unaware , including van drivers , of the slower LCV speeds allowed on UK roads. It also applies to N1 Pick up trucks . Its not enforced by the Police very much and how could one tell with say a discovery van as it has side windows . Interesting that the fit and finish is below par.
The advantage of "Commercial Vehicle" status is you don't pay the huge road tax penalty including the £2,500 first year payment that would otherwise be levied on this vehicle. The DVLA see it as "Commercial" but HMRC don't, so you can't put it through a LTD company. The price has now gone up to £65,000 for the cheapest version, so it's definitely not the budget choice. Although it will likely last as long as an old Defender which is good.
Hioe they manage to improv on the ineos theres a lot of promise in the car. also they really need to get a proper spedometer in it and not just the tesla style.
I’m expecting to finishes to be like this this is the vehicle where are you can hose it out pull the drain plugs and put the floorboards back in after it’s dry
I'm sure you'll be disappointed with the weight of the dual cab pick up when it's announced. Surely it will be at least 2,500kg if the wagon is 2700-2800.
It will be more, because the wheelbase needs extending to at least 130”, similar to most other dual cab pickups. The extended chassis and a four, or ideally five foot bed will result in a heavier vehicle, not lighter.
I was an early reservation holder from the US and went to one of their drive events. It was cool, it looked good, it will probably be good at off-roading BUT the moment they released the price I was done. Here in the US it’s I think $74,500 base price. Why so much? You have people that wanna be keyboard warriors and explain it away talking about its uniqueness and how is minimal interior justifies a higher price tag. That’s just nonsense. I cancelled my reservation and bought a 2023 lexus GX460 and saved about $13,000 USD. There is no reason the Grenadier should be that expensive. People say “the frame and suspension is better than the GX”, yes yes it is, BUT if you have a price on all components there is cost to power seats, rear air conditioning, a good stereo etc, if you get a refund on those components of the GX and buy a better frame and suspension components, shouldn’t it come out even in price? I mean I commend them for making the Grenadier BUT the price is unbelievable for what you get. Less isn’t more, more is more and less is less. In the Grenadier I get more off road goodies and less comfort goodies, in the GX I get more comfort goodies and less off road goodies. To me the price should be equal. I also get a V8, a tow package, window tinting, their upgraded stereo, rear air conditioning etc for a lesser price. $74,500 doesn’t even get you a tow package with the grenadier and our service network here in the US for Grenadier based on their website is also few and far between, pretty much all in big cities. I feel Grenadier either doesn’t care or didn’t really put feet on the ground to figure out the buyer they claim they intended this vehicle for. The unfortunate part is if this doesn’t end up selling real well the news will all claim “nobody wanted a heavy duty off-roader”… NO, don’t lie, “nobody wanted a poorly built, overpriced rushed vehicle”.
I put my name on the list when first announced, I freely admit the intention was to flip it immediately, fortunately! I was taken off the list, no reason was given. Someone I know ordered one, before his arrived he borrowed one from his local dealer, he discovered a list of issues and cancelled his order. He is waiting for a new Defender.
That is why I have never been an "early adopter". I never buy anything on its initial issue, especially vehicles. I'd bet good money that in a couple years time they will have 99% of that sorted out. But I'm glad somebody did it. Thank you for taking the risk and I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. I genuinely hope that the Grenadier becomes a real success. Cheers.
Good advice.
Yes, cutting edge technology will make u bleed.
Same thoughts here.
No. The problems are unfortunate. However, never buy from a country that should build boats instead of cars. I’ve never seen a UK dealers cars that don’t spend more time in the garage than on the road. Here in Canada for the rough winters and off-roading…. I’d buy a Toyota. Not a garbage car.
In 1992 I had an 11 seat Defender and had to register it as a Bus! MoT every twelve months, service every 3000 miles. On the upside, I used Bus lanes when travelling in Cities, especially London
👍
Niceee
A much appreciated the honest view. I was about to order one but will observe those points with caution. Thanks
You made some good points here, which I didn't know or realise (not having seriously considered this vehicle, also having had a Defender 200TDi CSW). Certainly things that SHOULD have been mentioned to you prior to purchasing. Much appreciated, valid commentary!
Interesting video. I’ve been an early adopter in the past and inevitably there are issues. I’ve decided to sit this one out for a while as I’m very happy with my Defender 110 First Edition but I might request a test drive out of curiosity.
Same Herr 👍
Here i meant
I have a Ineos reservation as well. I plan on transferring my deposit towards the pickup truck version once production starts.
Thanks very much mate, a very fair review!
Really appreciated your candour and honest review, rare to see as on TH-cam I keep finding a harsh mix of either old school Land Rover purists or ineos reviewers who seem to have been paid to only say good things. I am going to wait for them to fix their product production. Thank you for being an early adapter. Without more people like you products would never be improved and progress wouldn’t happen.
Thanks for the honest end user review. Every bit of info is good for those in the market for one. The glue showing etc is a bit like the defender finish quality, even so I’ve had three of those from new and still would get another if available. Not keen on the hairdresser edition jlr have brought out.
I've had 5 and still love my 110 😉
It’s a great bit of kit - 3k mls in on mine and it’s been faultless
Almost can’t give defenders away in Australia, way too unreliable, dusty and almost no dealership support ( ie reluctant support)
Here was I enjoying your positive reviews to date 😅 Well, if you’re getting out, now is the time! While the buzz and demand is high. Glad you broke even on it.
On the ev version, that’s gonna be one heavy car!
Good luck to you both 👍
Thank you.
Great video.
Informative.
I doubt the pick-up will be under the weight you mention! I think your findings are genuine and well founded, as for the electric version, it will probably be the heaviest version of all! Personally I'd rather have a new Defender 110 if the reliability were what it should be! Good luck moving forward, Cheers.
Frankly the lack of stop/start would be a bonus for me. It’s very interesting that the glasses station wagon is classed as a commercial vehicle by the DVLA. That’s the first time I’ve heard that one. I actually ordered a commercial version with the decreased rear legroom and steel panels at the back which Ineos claim is “certified as a commercial vehicle”. As with the above model, it certainly is with the DVLA but, crucially, not with HMRC for tax purposes. So no possibility of reclaiming the VAT or tax relief as a cost against a business. That means zero cost advantage over the glass version. Needless to say I cancelled the order and had a lucky escape. Just had delivery of a Ford Ranger Wildtrak which has lovely steering in all conditions, brilliant technology and performance, a quality finish and great performance from its 2.0 twin turbo engine and 10 speed auto. A new full time 4wd mode for on-road use along with an amazing technology pack and very quiet interior. Nice comfortable ride, although naturally on the firm side. No issue with insurance and as an additional vehicle and introductory no-claims discount from the NFU bring it in under £500 per year. On top of which, due to the VAT situation with Granadier, a full £25,000 saving on purchase price. Very very disappointed by Grenadier and their deceptive marketing.
What did you mean about the fact that your Grenadier was considered a commercial vehicle? Is that because it is a specific version or are all Grenadier versions considered commercial?
I recently bought a Land Cruiser 76
If these had been around for a few more years I might have bought one Thankyou for letting us know about the after sales service issues
US consumer here. Thanks for the quick review and findings. Early reservations here, will help me later if I move forward with my order. I always wanted a Defender but didn't want to burn $ for a 1997 model. I always liked the look of the Ineos; I thought they nailed it, but hopefully they will get it together before the US release. For now, I just purchased a Lexus GX460, which is 60/40 on looks but definitely more reliable.
they are nice, the GX drinks more gas than this wish the GX had no 3rd row
Good review. Some very good points put out there that I would not have been aware of if I had been buying one. The Defender is No 1 on my list of next cars but I might seriously have considered the Grenadier but this has put me off as 95% of my driving would have been on tarmac and 5% of that in snow so no chance of buying a car with vague steering running at reduced speeds on dual carriageways. Of the three Defenders I have driven I loved two of them but one I found seriously under powered it just felt sluggish which I didn't feel in the others not sure why but I didn't buy it and ended up with the i-Pace which we love and is perfect for our needs except the range in very cold Scottish winters.
The vague steering comment completely baffles me. After 2000 miles in my Grenadier I have never felt the steering to be an issue. Might be down to me having driven older Defenders since the early 80's.
@@dipseadiver that'll be it!!
You don't need an off road vehicle if 95% of your driving is on tarmac . Twat!
The vague steering has been noted in all serious reviews since this vehicle has been available to review.
Good video with helpful, honest views. Thank you.
It sounds likely quality control is on a learning curve but the response sounds disappointing.
Sound review, for similar money what would you buy for town driving, motorway driving and trips to the Alps? Many thanks, Mike
Thanks for sharing. Always risks in being the pioneer.
Thank you. The first review I've seen that has mentioned the commercial vehicle issues. Sadly it is a long way from the original Defender ethos: like all similar vehicles nowadays it is too heavy, far too wide and far too complex. Most farmers are moving on to the bigger quad bikes instead.
Compared to our petrol fieldmaster it certainly seems a) yours isn’t well finished, b) the speed limit issues for a commercial type are a total pain in the backside, c) the steering is genuinely fine (+ start stop SHOULD work as ours does)
Hope you also get allocation to a pick-up…ours arrives in December I believe
Good luck with the next vehicle
Should be £30k cheaper
@@sheepdogman1 maybe pre covid inflation spiral
@@sheepdogman1 and I wish Patek Philippe’s were still 10k …
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
Compared with our 2009 Defender, both the Grenadier and new Defender use more fuel, have less ground clearance, lower payload and cost much more when new, so how is this progress?
This is progress because it looks old and it "aparents" to be old-school technology, but in reality you and I know this is overrated... So yeah... It's not progress, is just progress to the manufacturer pocket. This should be costing like 32-40k tops, this proofs how tendencies and media works to promote things...
HONEST REVIEW. I PERSONALLY RECOMMEND A DISCOVERY 2 TD5 MATE. 😊
Brilliant honest review, and very helpful. I am in the US.and as an early deposit holder, I need to order by June 30th to achieve delivery by year end. Decided I am going to cancel and wait for the Cybertruck which as an early deposit holder I can wait until summer next year. Love the Ineos, but as of yet no dealer network of who is handling it has been announced, and with numerous posts in regard to quality control, and at $90k plus here, I’ll wait until they get it together. Thanks for taking the time to review and help us perspective buyers Stateside.
Thanks for watching. I hear the cyber trucks are starting deliveries very very soon. Not sure they will make it to the uk sadly.
Give it a wide berth
Those seem like really quite different vehicle choices.
Mind you I can't imagine anyone who's buying the cybertruck as a serious vehicle rather than for its looks?
@@cjeam9199 I feel like the cybertruck looks incomplete. Like they just got the metal sheets fresh from the factory, welded it on and called it day lol. Looks hideous
The commercial vehicle element is definitely a showstopper so understandable
Stateside here. Thank you for your candid assessment. I removed myself from the pre-order reservation once my head prevailed over my heart, and went back to practical utility and durability over aesthetic which Grenadier just hit it out of the ballpark. Like you said, you're better off with a truck like a mid size Toyota Tacoma which comes with plenty after market support. You can customize with bed racks or enclose it with a bed cab. Not to mention the flexibility to customize suspension setup to satisfy your 95/5 road/offroad drive. Personally, a full size pickup like a Tundra will be even better, but we're kind of spoilt here with often large parking spots and wide roadways here in most of the country.
That speed limit thing isn't enforced and the rule dates back to the 1987, hence why the weight is specified in Imperial tons in the legislation, and the rather odd 2040kg people refer to now - at least I've never heard of it being enforced. I did read a bulletin from DVSA saying it would be unenforceable, but i can't find it just now. The Amaroks I've had are over that weight and I never had a problem, law enforcement always ignored it. But be interesting to hear if anybody has indeed had it enforced against them.
try going to Scotland....any ANPR based speeding system will do you
@@shaungilmartin1505 I don't think so, I live in Scotland, I've run VW Amaroks since 2017, around 100k miles in Scotland, use the A9 regularly, pass mobile traps regularly, never had a problem.
Great video. Very helpful.
If you want a pickup just buy the1.9 Isuzu D-max! It is under the Light commercial weight limit so no extra speed limits and gives amazing economy and euro 6 without adblue if you get the right model so no ULEZ charges. Mine has averaged 39.4mpg (UK) over the 6000 miles i have done in it! Leather, aircon, everything you need! I got excited about the Grenadier when it was announced but soon wrote it off the short list along with many others including the X type Merc and Ranger Raptor.
Such a small engine though
great review, I was one of the first to order here in Australia, I cant explain how much I was looking forward to mine arriving. After a two year wait and putting my money where their promises were, I recieved my contract only to find they had just about every detail wrong, when I called them to change the contract I was told "verry sorry but your contract cannot be changed because the car is already sheduled for production" my options were to take the spec I didnt order or get on the end of the line. There is no way I could ever trust a company who would treat a customer with that level of disrespect, I pulled my order imediatley and purchased a landrover just to stick it to them.
The Ineos Greadier could have been all and much more than they suggested it could be but it looks like they are just like every other manufacturer, but they have less support and terrible customer service.
Hi,
I’m in Australia
I can understand your disappointment.
If u placed your order that long ago, it would have been well before price rises etc
Original pricing in Australia, included LCT.
Then, ( in mid 2022 ? ) when Ineos advised of getting LCT exemption, prices came down.
But, not long after this, they then had the first of a few price rises…
Seems as though a few stuff ups happened at dealer level and HO level, if they were going to build your vehicle, in a spec that was not what u ordered ??
My understanding is that a logical process was in place with customers who had placed an order, which meant that the model / specs / options u want, we’re confirmed a few times, particularly when it got to the point of Australian HO needing to confirm what they wanted built for people who had already ordered a Grenadier, in the past ??
It’s now June.
Grenadier is in Australia, but still no deliveries !
Why ?
I’m hearing of 2 possible major issues
# 1
Payload is under 1 tonne, so Grenadier should not be classed as a Commercial vehicle, which gets it LCT exemption.
If the LCT exemption does not happen, Ineos would need to go back to every customer, and advise that the vehicle will now be at least $ 10 k more !
People won’t cop that
# 2
Back in 2021, it was announced in Australia that ADR would make it compulsory for any all New Passenger vehicle to have AEB, by March 2023.
Seems as though Ineos have missed that date !
Ineos originally expected to have Grenadier in Australia by end of 2022, so they were not worried about the March 2023 cut off date, and Commercial vehicles don’t need to comply with this new ADR requirement regarding AEB…
But
Commercial vehicle status now up in the air, and it’s past March 2023.
Ineos Australia might be trying to sort out a huge problem
Hence why NO Grenadier have got to dealers for customer deliveries…
🤷🏻♂️
It’s a great product and I love mine
If the contract was wrong, you shouldn't have signed.
@@shawtravis7384 c’mon - he’s misordered and perhaps got the wrong end of the stick with the dealer
We all make mistakes
Try and be less troll-like and be forgiving - he’s obviously upset
I’ve had the same experience when my contract was different to the vehicle spec on the ineos portal. I’ve been waiting 6 weeks for a revised contract. Ineos were very apologetic.
You’d expect better from that price of vehicle, I’m sure it will get better eventually. It has potential, I like it but can understand the issues you have raised. Personally I’d be waiting a bit longer for the teething problems to be sorted.
Here in the US I test drove one in Pasadena, CA and it feels a lot like my Mitsubishi Montero which I have driven 250,000 miles with a lot of off roading and over soft sand dunes. It’s been an amazing and durable vehicle that never once let me down or got stuck. I want to drive to Death Valley but fear of it finally dying is real so I ordered a grenadier. The review doesn’t mention anything other than steering (which I didn’t even notice being odd during test drive) so I’ll keep my order. They say it should be ready this month which is great. I’m about 1,000,000th in line for a cybertruck so that might be a few years of waiting.
Good review. This has made my mind up not to pursue this vehicle any longer. I had thought about one of these but no longer the case. Thank you 😊
There are way more and worse issues than mentioned in this video like how you the side windows are so low you can't even look out them without lowering your head in an uncomfortable position.
@@Redneck_Wizard I’ll just stick with my defender thanks
That’s a bonus the stop start not working..saves turning the bloody thing off all the time..
Great video...I plan to just get a LR Defender (new one)....yep....road car sort of....fine for what I need. And cheaper.
Thanks for the honest thoughts. There should be no compromise when buying a brand new vehicle. Fit and finish, proper specifications, dealership response/responsibility regarding warranty and complaints as well as dealer networks are all part of the high price paid for this vehicle. It’s a hard pass for me.
oz HERE. thank you for your honest comments.
I have a 2022 Defender 90 ( love it), ordered the Grenadier. Should arrive end of march. Will see if we like the Grenadier, steering is something to get used too.
For me the new shape defenders are a lot nicer and more comfortable. If you’ve owned an old defender you will enjoy this more. Let me know how you get on with it.
You should always know what you’re buying when it comes to cars. So many people buy vehicles without know what they really are and understanding them.
In terms of "commercial" vs "passenger" and UK speed limits, bear in mind that JLR took the conscious decision to declare all Puma Defenders as "commercial". Of greater importance to many purchasers will be the aspect of LEZ type restrictions and their application to commercial vehicles.
Not strictly true - my 2009 Puma station wagon is PLG
@@MattsBrabusl think it came in with the 2.2 Puma in 2011.
If the car is not for you then that’s absolutely fine , I totally get it , I canceled my order as even though DVLA treat this vehicle as a commercial ,HMRC don’t so no vat reclaim for business users . Big own goal on ineos part .
Are you sure this doesn't depend on model? There's a difference between the 5-seat commercially rated station wagon and the 5-seat passenger station wagon. The former is obviously aimed at farmers and I'd be surprised if Ineos haven't made sure they can get a vat rebate on it.
@@idabrit
I am a farmer and cancelled mine because the ‘certified commercial’ five seater with reduced second row legroom and panel sides does not qualify for VAT and tax relief due to not having the required one ton carrying capacity. It has killed the commercial version and the forthcoming pickup stone dead in the UK. The DVLA decision to class the passenger version as a commercial is just as damaging due to the speed limit and insurance issues raised. In my opinion the Grenadier is doomed as far as any commercially viable sales go after the initial excitement dies down, which will be very rapid.
Sold old Defender 130 Puma as worried about oil pump/ reliability. Looked at Grenadier but decided to buy tried and tested G Wagen 350 diesel 463 my third G ; secondhand 10 yrs old 60000 miles easy life in Essex, we overland so ideal for tracks and trails . I has a 96 l tank
,three diff locks and low ratio. Much more comfortable than old Defender and cost less than new Grenadier by £30k with a slower depreciation… still you know all this as you have had one!
I believe this is normal for a first production. When you firs develop a concept, a new venture, a new product, you start with a dream and develop it. You execute the idea the best way you can and start selling it. Issues will be present in the first editions, but as sales come in, cash flow allows you to stay alive and correct this issues and finally deliver a issue free product. I see your point, but from a new company, new product stand point, I also see why theses issues are present. Just take a look at the first reviews of the first year Teslas were sold. Misalignment of parts, software issues, charging problems, etc, etc. Let's hope that INEOS continues to fix this things in time and have a great Defender replacement in the close future. And that they also fix the way the Grenadier is legally identified so you can either drive as a commercial o recreation vehicle too.
I’ve seen a couple of other reviewers mention fit and finish issues. Really not acceptable in a vehicle that costs (in the US) almost as much as a new Defender 110 - which is a much more complex vehicle as well. I was pretty stoked about the Grenadier early on, but now it looks like I’ll be asking for my deposit back, and going with a tried and true American pick-up truck instead.
yep, way overpriced!
this is 100% more expensive then a mid spec'ed defender new
@@3ddiy So the Defender costs nothing then? I always thought a mid spec Defender was of a similar amount to the Grenadier.
@@dipseadiver 100% isn't literal 2x the cost. it was to say it is confidently more expensive then a mid spec defender in the US. A mid spec defender is 80k. If you spec'ed out a grenadier not even with everything. Just a trial master with say some extra bits its more expensive than 80k, and thats not including destination taxes or anything else the dealership in the us might price on top. I also wouldn't even consider the grenadier similar spec to a mid tier defender. Its probably closer to the barebones stock defender that comes in around 55k. Defender is just a better value for me. Others can argue the value of the grenadier. But it really just feels like early adopter small volume tax to me. Also considering how much they originally wanted it to be which is 60k. Which is an indicator of their original intent and value of the car. The raise in the cost from ineos isn't reflective of the pricing they had in Europe. The cost overall from auto companies across the globe has gone up from the pandemic and inflation. But not at the high rate that ineos taken to raise the cost. I just can't help to wonder about Sir Jim Ratcliffs financial issues with laws being passed that would hurt his oil company. Or his money spent on Man U. That he wants to make more income on grenadier now vs down the road. usually new auto companies will go with opening an IPO to get investment for growth. But here it just feels like the first buyers are the ones subsidizing the growth with no return just a depreciating car. I'm still keen on following along cause as production grows and initial interest fade the prices will have to come down for people who dropped out initially to be interested to come back. Love to see what they do with the pick up and a smaller SUV that will have to be a completely different platform and not be ladder frame if it wants to be electric. Cause then they will be competing in a even more crowded market as Rivian is coming out with a smaller SUV, defender has a fully electric coming in the next year or so and so will Jeep.
@@3ddiy Firstly, please let me apologise for my flippant comment regarding 100% discounts. In UK, if something costs £100.00 and I get a 50% discount, the item will cost me £50.00. Therefore, 100% discount.... The point is I was being an arse and there was no excuse for that. Regarding Defender or Grenadier. I don't think there is really any debate. If you want a beautiful design, brilliant on road handling, good residual's whilst in warranty, credibility at the mall or school yard, it has to be the new Defender.
If however, you want something more brutalist, individual, focussed, 'out from the crowd', the Grenadier is the one to go for. It is not a Defender rival. It is more a cut price, old school G-Wagon. Perhaps the Jeep would be a closer competitor than the Defender.
On the pricing front. Here in the UK Defenders of an equivalent spec are far more expensive than the Grenadier and come with the added worry that they will not actually get you to your destination. I haven't yet seen, in any of the forums I follow, a breakdown involving an actual breakdown or recovery of the new Grenadier.
I already own the new Grenadier and consider it a worthy successor to my old style Defender. For you I suspect you will be much happier with the new Tesla Cyber truck or whatever you choose. 'Horses for courses', as we say in the UK.
I took a long hard look at the pair of 2 seater commercials on display (along with others) at the Bath & West Show yesterday, when I could fight my way to the front.
Build quality looked great to me. Nothing out of place, no glue or trim issues of note. They were customer vehicles from Gloucester way (I believe).
I’ll be ply lining mine, as I do with all my vans, so I’m not worried about minor niggles.
As for speed limits? Do your research before you buy. It’s your responsibility to know what speeds you can and cannot do on various types of road. It’s not up to the manufacturer/supplier to sit you down and go through the Highway Code with you.
I really hope you find what you’re looking for, and am sorry your Grenadier wasn’t the right one for you.
Good luck.
I’ve gone for the 2 seater as well. I’ll be interested to see how yours looks ply lined as I’m wanting to do similar. Do you have any ideas or sketches as to how your going to get it to fit round the arches and rear doors etc ? Thanks Olly.
They did hide the kerb weight for as long as possible though didn't they. Is it in the brochure now?
@@stevemumbling7720 it’s difficult to state the curb weight as the configuration system offers a number of OEM options that would result in a significant increase in weight; namely the front winch (plus updated suspension), the bumpers for other markets (which are steel), and other accessories such as rock sliders , different wheel/tyre types etc. they all weigh more, so it would be as confusing as the government’s guidance on speed limits for car derived vans and dual purpose vehicles.
I’m not making excuses for Ineos or their representative suppliers; I suspect they may have dropped a small bollock there, but as previously mentioned, customers (for every product that falls under ambiguous legislation) need to do their homework first, as best they can, before signing along the dotted line.
However, with hindsight not being an option, I’m grateful that you’ve raised the topic for the rest of us. Such a pity you had to find out the way you did.
Again, good luck.
@@Grenadier2024 Hi Olly.
I have my Mercedes Citan vans ply lined when ordering from my dealer.
But there are plenty of ply lining companies who can offer a bespoke lining, as long as they have access to either the vehicle or precise measurements.
I’m awaiting a response from Gearmate (UK company) whom I’ll be asking to design and produce a shelving/split level module for the cargo area.
I carry a number of pelicases and solar generators, so will need both robust and secure racking etc.
I’ll let you know how I get on (once my Grenny arrives; hopefully Aug/Sept).
Robin.
@@robinireland810 I suppose they could have stated an approximate weight range for different models with different accessories. This is the first time I have heard of different speed restrictions for different weight commercial vehicles. We don't have that here in Australia.
We have ours now and love it. A few things a bit annoying but its an off road vehicle that can also be used on road. If you dont need an off road vehicle then buy a road car. Plenty of them around. The whole vision from the start was aimed at this goal. Then people buy them and say i dont really need a car to use off road.
Bonjour ,
Quels problèmes gênants avez vous ?
Interesting. I didn't realise that they had secured a 'commercial' classification. I was under the impression HMRC weren't on board.
I think the problem was that HMRC weren't on board but VOSA were, so you've got LGV speed limits but can't reclaim the VAT.
@@johnhebenton1525
That is exactly right for the two 'certified commercial’ versions. Not too sure why the van version, the one with no second row seats, doesn’t qualify with HMRC but for the panelled five seater it is because it has way below the minimum payload limit required of at least one ton. The empty weight of the Grenadier, of often 2.9 tons, only gives a 600kg payload while remaining within the 3.5 ton maximum laden weight limit for this class of vehicle and driving license category. Shouldn’t make any difference to the van but is all important for a vehicle with a second row of seats.
When it breaks down, where do you get parts????
Was your previous vehicle the new Defender? What did you replace the Grenadier with? Thank you
I’ve had old shape defenders not new ones. I’m holding out for the new Land Cruiser. I’ve bought a gr86 in the mean time.
@@thebrandtour1469 oh nooo Rusty Cruiser is already rusting on the factory line. LC's body sheets are not galvanized, unlike Ineos. Toyotas are red from rust underneath after the first winter.
Looks great but I've been sceptical of the build quality. If there is no attention to detail w/ the finish, what surprises are lying in wait under the hood two years out. Thanks for the heads up.
I suggest you to wait for new land cruiser prado. I aswel was thinking to get the inios but I didn't want to rush
I’ve put my name on the list for the new Land Cruiser. Looks cool.
thank you, ... please advise what vehicle will you buy as a replacement ?
I’ve bought a Toyota gr86 as a run around until I choose another adventure vehicle.
Everyone has their own reasons. Doesn’t seem you did your own research to figure out if the commercial version met your needs. A lesson to others.
There is no chance the pickup will be light enough for the dual use speed limit classification. High spec Rangers and Hilux and the new Amarok aren't either.
Surely being registered as a commercial vehicle is a show stopper for most people, over and above the rerstricted speed limits and insurance issues. I have a 2000 registered Defender TD5 110 CSW (had it since 2008), and it is regstered as a commercial vehicle .There were a few years (I think) when they were registered as commercial vehicles (a mistake in my opinion). Because of that, for example, drving into London is £100. As a commercial vehicle, won't it become harder and harder to drive into cities...I may be mistaken. I registered interest and configured an Ineos Grendadier, but in the end stuck with the Defender (which I'm spending £20k on upgrading). I know it won't ever drive like a Grendadier, but having heard the 'commercial vehicle' issue, I'd have done exactly the same as you and sold it.
But that is Insane Socialist laws in Europe. Not insanity that is endured in the rest of the world.
I’m an Australian owner. It does drive like a truck but that’s to be expected as it’s been made for a purpose.
I bought mine before the price rise so in Australian terms I saved $30k.
How's it going now? They have been doing a reasonable job of correcting problems.
I appreciate your review. As a former H1 owner for 15 years, I think you buy a vehicle going in eyes wide open and knowing what you want the vehicle to do for you. The Grenadier seems to be built for off-road, and not so much for creature comforts. If you compare it to the SUV luxury brands, you’ll probably be a little disappointed. I give them high marks for starting a new company in a very competitive space and I’m sure things will work out, but the market is for explorers, IMO. I will say this, if the Land Rover experience is anything, this first generation will be a collectors item in the future.😊
It seems that either this is an opinion paid for by Ineos' competitors (Jeep, Land Cruisers from Toyota), or the now unsatisfied former owner of the Grenadier doesn't really know what he wants. After selling Grenadier, he bought... Toyota GR86. Apparently, it meets his expectations more than Ineos.
Like you, I am also rooting for the manufacturer of Ineos, because he has done the impossible: he stood like David against Goliath. A small manufactory versus big corporations, with incalculable budgets for "black PR".
Jaguar Land Rover (JLR), Jeep and Toyota were all in an uproar when Sir Radcliffe (Ineosa's manufacturer) faced a positive response from potential customers who had been waiting years for a real off-roader, and a plastic toy for teenagers like the Wrangler JK or JL. JLR, in an act of desperation, filed a lawsuit against Ineos - which is downright pathetic and infantile. Toyota quickly designed the Land Cruiser J25 to bounce some clientele back to Ineos for a new retro-style offroader. Jeep is just looking at it (maybe it will learn its lessons and end the toy-like interior design and design it along the lines of the Grenadier or at least the Commander XK/XH).
Unfortunately, Ineos hit a very difficult time for the company's development - a pandemic, war in Russia and Ukraine (a potentially huge market), the West vs. China trade war, Brexit (tariffs in the EU), the specter of a great recession in the white man's countries, and who knows if not the Third World War, have seriously hampered Grenadier's debut.
For my part, I wish them the best. Ineos Grenadier is the first car that was not manufactured to stretch the owner on service costs - the owner gets full documentation and access to the car's diagnostics. In addition, he can service it at any Bosch Services. A car for the owner, not a greedy corporation.
I'm sorry, but its like hitech electrical goods. You never buy the first in the shops because the series 2 is always coming soon after. That rear door finishes me, and I've got a Trooper.
Commercial insurance : it's sold as such a vehicle ( when it arrives this month ) in Oz , so that may be a problem here too . Road Fund is more for commercial here , I do know .
Fancy a new Landcruiser? As a Discovery 3 owner that’s the best modern replacement for the sort of offroad those can do.
Meant to be like that is bullshit. Every new manufacture has issues. It's how you resolve these issues for the customer that sets your brand apart.
Good luck with your journey.
I agree. Thanks.
I nearly laughed at the screen when he said “or maybe the electric one”, good luck with that, the perfect off road drivetrain!
Interesting and honest video. On the speed limit point, from the number of full-sized vans and pick-ups (including Discovery Commericals, Ford Rangers etc) who drive around at exactly the same speed as the rest of the traffic I'd say 99% of drivers and 99% of police officers don't know or care. I don't think a future Grenadier pick-up will make any difference as to qualify as a Car-Derived Van and have normal speed limits, the maximum laden weight of the vehicle has to be under 2 tonnes. Not the empty weight. No way on earth any Grenadier is going to fall into that bracket.
He is describing the regulations for a dual purpose commercial vehicle. Ie van with 2nd row of seats with rear windows or 4wd vehicles. 2040kg max unlaiden without fuel or driver.
I thought even the full commercials version of the Grenadier would count as a car derived van. Do the Discovery commercials not?
@@MrJordanwain no they don’t, they’re well over 2 tonnes unladen, let alone max weight.
@@simono4991 that makes sense - thinking of the old Astra, Corsa, Fiesta and Punto vans which weigh about the same as an alloy wheel on a new Discovery commercial 😂
A commercial vehicle is a commercial vehicle and it doesn’t matter it’s weight, insurance will be for a commercial vehicle. Going non commercial on a pickup will I’m sure have it’s issues. But like you say it’s all about what you need it primarily for. Pickups are classed as vans so it won’t matter wether you get a commercial or not, there may still be issues for you where you can take it or what you are allowed to do with it.
Yeah. You are correct.
Interesting you state build quality (finish) and the fact it's a commercial vehicle for insurance and speed limits......
So, what makes you think the pickup version will be any different???
It won’t be. Hopefully they might sort some of the quality issues given that everyone is saying the same and improve their customer service. I’m 99% certain the pick-up will still be too heavy to be able to do normal speed limits but one can hope.
@@thebrandtour1469 The speed limit laws are out of date and need to be reviewed. A 38 seater bus can be driven at 70MPH on a dual carriageway but a Ford Transit Connect is limited to 60MPH,
thx mate !
interesting video.
Who's enforcing the commercial vehicle speed limits? Cameras aren't for certain and you'll only be pulled if your speeding in a bus or a lorry or generally driving like a clown.
Most of the vans on the motorway are doing 80+
People are saying it's expensive but the 4x4 hardware looks top notch, anyway good luck for your replacement vehicle.
Speed camera vans and modern fixed cameras as well as portable police cameras such as used by patrol officers from cars or motorbikes are linked to the DVLA, so automatically take account of the appropriate speed limit for the vehicle. Lorries are mostly limited to 56mph these days while buses can drive at 70 on motorways like cars. Cars and vans do exceed speed limits but a proportion, in the thousands, get caught and fines nationwide daily.
Interesting about how much effect a commercial vehicle will have on your driving, possibly not something many people would have thought of. On the other hand, sounds like you need a Volvo XC70 or something like that.
I'm glad in America we don't deal with that commercial vehicle stuff for something that small. I think for us commercial vehicles are like semi trucks and dump trucks something over 26,000 gross lb
Insuring mine was a doddle; went to LV, my current insurer, within 5 minutes I'm covered, including transferring NCD, all the legal stuff they need to tell me etc. That it is an N1 and you didn't realise that there are different speed limits is sort of down to you not being au fait with the nations speed limits. My daily, until tomorrow, is a pick up, well over the 2T mark. I'm not encouraging anyone to exceed the speed limit, but would you do 80 in your car on a motorway? 70 on a dual carriageway in an N1 like the Grenadier is no different. ( Don't try it in a pre 2016 Ford Ranger as the brakes are shit!)
I guess they're not for everyone though, so sincerely, all the best finding your right vehicle.
Direct line took 5 mins on mine
How nice and rugged this truck is, there is no way I am gonna spend €170k++ on it (price in The Netherlands).
That’s crazy money.
Even more expensive then the New Defender
I read something that said at some point, all new cars will be governed to the actual speed limits of the road. Which no doubt will piss off most BMW and AUDI drivers as said limits don't seem to apply to them. I reckon there's gonna be a hell of a lot of new unsold cars in 2030........
Flipping heck mate! Not really a 'hater' but just because you didn't make a profit doesn't necessarily mean that wasn't your original intention!
I live in the U.S. and went to our local dealer to buy one. After spending a few hours driving it I returned with a shocking discovery. I feel there are way better vehicles that can everything this ineos can do but more. I have some experience with the Mercedes G550 and on the used market they can be found for similar money to the ineos and thought why would I have an ineos over a G550 or other options. To my surprise the dealer took a 2020 200 series Land Cruiser in on trade for an ineos and that had me really puzzled, why would you trade that perfect Toyota for something that is unknown and not very nicely built. So I left the dealership in a 2020 Land Cruiser for a lot less than the ineos and this 200 series was always my dream vehicle to own so I can’t see why you would want the ineos. The motor is not going to be reliable, the materials used are cheap plastics and the company itself might not exist in a few years. I would rather have a G550, my 200 series or big Chevy 2500 diesel or Ram 2500 diesel before this ineos.
Usually start stop stops working when cars doing a regen or failed to do one.
The fit and finish bits are pretty normal for an upstart car company. People forget how much institutional knowledge is in the average cheap Ford or Toyota. The best thing that could happen to this design is if a major player bought the Grenadier arm of Ineos and started building the truck (hopefully without too much redesign of it). Someone like Mazda would be perfect as they don't have any competing products.
Most of that is moot in US. Wish they would sell the diesel commerical version in USA.
Why don't you wait for the new Prado?
Snot box mate. You did well to break even.
Interesting you didn't mention two features which would be a red flag for me - 1. The truly appalling fuel consumption, and 2. the cramped (RHD) driver's footwell, caused by the postioning of the exhaust under the floor. (No problem with LHD vetsions apparently).
Id say some of your reasons are home goals and trying to blame ineos for them is a little bit of cope, the weight and speed restrictions have always been there and as for the insurance im guessing you must have had it on collection. Build quality wise, its the first production run for a brand new vehicle, its bound to happen and should he addressed by ineos under warranty. However your very last statement in the video was "wait for the pickup or the electric version" if you think its heavy now wait for the electric version, vehicles like this were never designed to be electric.
What mpg did you get?
28mpg. That’s in the UK.
Never drove one, but there 2 issues I'm concern. Weight and Cost, both too high
It surprising how many people are unaware , including van drivers , of the slower LCV speeds allowed on UK roads. It also applies to N1 Pick up trucks . Its not enforced by the Police very much and how could one tell with say a discovery van as it has side windows . Interesting that the fit and finish is below par.
The Land Over Pretender - somebody has to make one.
Steering should be driven from the Gearbox based on Travel Speed
It needs a rack and pinion steering and that broke the deal for me.
The advantage of "Commercial Vehicle" status is you don't pay the huge road tax penalty including the £2,500 first year payment that would otherwise be levied on this vehicle.
The DVLA see it as "Commercial" but HMRC don't, so you can't put it through a LTD company.
The price has now gone up to £65,000 for the cheapest version, so it's definitely not the budget choice.
Although it will likely last as long as an old Defender which is good.
Hioe they manage to improv on the ineos theres a lot of promise in the car. also they really need to get a proper spedometer in it and not just the tesla style.
I’m expecting to finishes to be like this this is the vehicle where are you can hose it out pull the drain plugs and put the floorboards back in after it’s dry
Could you please redo the video with better sound so that it becomes understandable?
LR Time did a video on one, and by the looks of it the build quality in some areas is shockingly poor.
Observation:
You can't haul plywood sheets, tow a trailer, or haul much.
I'm sure you'll be disappointed with the weight of the dual cab pick up when it's announced. Surely it will be at least 2,500kg if the wagon is 2700-2800.
It will be more, because the wheelbase needs extending to at least 130”, similar to most other dual cab pickups. The extended chassis and a four, or ideally five foot bed will result in a heavier vehicle, not lighter.
I was an early reservation holder from the US and went to one of their drive events. It was cool, it looked good, it will probably be good at off-roading BUT the moment they released the price I was done. Here in the US it’s I think $74,500 base price. Why so much? You have people that wanna be keyboard warriors and explain it away talking about its uniqueness and how is minimal interior justifies a higher price tag. That’s just nonsense. I cancelled my reservation and bought a 2023 lexus GX460 and saved about $13,000 USD. There is no reason the Grenadier should be that expensive. People say “the frame and suspension is better than the GX”, yes yes it is, BUT if you have a price on all components there is cost to power seats, rear air conditioning, a good stereo etc, if you get a refund on those components of the GX and buy a better frame and suspension components, shouldn’t it come out even in price? I mean I commend them for making the Grenadier BUT the price is unbelievable for what you get. Less isn’t more, more is more and less is less. In the Grenadier I get more off road goodies and less comfort goodies, in the GX I get more comfort goodies and less off road goodies. To me the price should be equal. I also get a V8, a tow package, window tinting, their upgraded stereo, rear air conditioning etc for a lesser price. $74,500 doesn’t even get you a tow package with the grenadier and our service network here in the US for Grenadier based on their website is also few and far between, pretty much all in big cities. I feel Grenadier either doesn’t care or didn’t really put feet on the ground to figure out the buyer they claim they intended this vehicle for. The unfortunate part is if this doesn’t end up selling real well the news will all claim “nobody wanted a heavy duty off-roader”… NO, don’t lie, “nobody wanted a poorly built, overpriced rushed vehicle”.
I put my name on the list when first announced, I freely admit the intention was to flip it immediately, fortunately! I was taken off the list, no reason was given. Someone I know ordered one, before his arrived he borrowed one from his local dealer, he discovered a list of issues and cancelled his order. He is waiting for a new Defender.
Good for him. At least with the new Defender he can expect 100% reliability. Not to mention top kudos on the school run.
@@dipseadiver hahahaha, I hope thats sarcasm regarding the reliability! He can also expected it to be robbed and/or uninsurable!
No excuse for shoddy finish given they are using an existing factory/workforce. Is the steering issue the large turning circle?
It’s very vague and doesn’t self centre.