I grew up under the poverty line. My father supported our family of 5 with 14k/year. I graduated with an engineering degree started working for a fortune 500 company making 50k but living paycheck to paycheck for 5 years. One day it hit me that this math did not make sense. I quit my downtown job where I felt pressured to keep up with my mostly wealthy coworkers, driving high end cars and eating out everyday. I took a higher paying job at a factory in the same city where I was surrounded mostly by blue collar workers. There you were respected for being humble and hard working not materliastic things. I followed the baby steps and within 3 years paid off 20k in consumer debt, saved up a 20% downpayment and bought a house. Finally, 3 years later paid off the house. " You are the sum of the people you surround yourself with"
I agree with you but I also think you can be surrounded by people like that AND still withstand the pressure to live like everyone else. It just depends on people’s willpower when it all comes down to it. I’ve run into a few people who had that kind of willpower to not care what everyone else thought they should do with their money or time and just live within their means/below their means to maintain their peace.
@@duckylmexicanI agree. Get a decent haircut and wear clean, undamaged clothes. Other than that, who cares about people who care about labels or the car you drive? I probably spend less than $300 per year on my clothes. I don't let myself get fatter and fatter though so my clothes last. I probably spend around the same ($300 per year) on haircuts though since I had more than enough cheap, botched Supercuts as a kid. So I pay the premium for infrequent high quality haircuts.
When I was younger, I had a 6-figure income and spent it all. I was deep in debt for years. Then I sold everything to pay off my debt and travel the world. I lived out of a suitcase and bought only what I could carry or consume. I learned to live on less yet feel rich. Now I’m retired, living on $3K/mo. I can buy whatever I want, but the difference is that I just don’t want that much anymore.
I can't even enjoy Christmas anymore because I'm surrounded by people who insist of forcing me to have more and more things. I don't think they will ever understand that everything they buy me just gets donated or trashed because I am contempt with what I own. I just want to play a board game or a card game with people for a day.
My friend husband works in the oilfield. He makes GOOD MONEY. and she worked also (4 kids) But they always lived paycheck to paycheck. Going on trips, buying brand new vehicles, expensive jewelry, extravagant parties. "Lending" money to her siblings. They never paid her back.
My mom recently told me she doesn’t feel rich- well off, but not “rich.” She and my dad are retired, no debt, their daily expenses are covered by pension and social security, but they also have several million in retirement and brokerage accounts. They just bought a brand-new car (replacing a 17-year-old car when the transmission died) in cash that was more than they spent on their first home. She couldn’t give me an explanation as to why she isn’t rich, or what would get her there, just that she doesn’t feel it. (My dad does feel rich, because, “I grew up worried about money. Now money is no object. That’s rich.”)
Your mom doesn't feel rich because they are not extravagant people. They pay cash after driving the same car for 17 years. They are not people who flaunt what they have, but rather live well and do not squander it on material things they don't need.
Teacher stat is gonna be highly tainted by significant others that did not have to work at all due to husbands salary but found a job that went well with child care. This would represent approximately 33% of my neighborhood.
Cars are such a weird thing to measure people from. I own a Lexus GX, LS 430 and a Porsche 911. I paid $38k for all of them. They’re older but in great shape. I do most of the maintenance on them to save money. Some people have asked me how I afford my cars and I tell them to buy used and pay cash.
I used to have this view of people who owned a Lexus (they must be really rich)..I found out what great cars they are (last a long time) and was hoping to buy one in my budget. My husband and I bought a 2011 RX 350 last year and it feels brand new to us. The inside & outside barely shows its age.
When I was making $175k, I still felt poor, but logically I was not. I think it was because taxes took out about 25%, tithing was 10%, house expenses were about 20%, utilities and expenses were probably another 10%, savings was 15%….I’m already up to 80%, and I’m so grateful I don’t have any more debt! With 5 kids and an active family, I knew I wasn’t poor, but I didn’t “feel” like I was comfortable because I never really had much extra, but money was going to savings and all the important categories.
@@tobymarx-dunn2332 100% wrong. As A family of 7 living in CA and making house payments, I was on a pretty tight budget making $175K. Now, I have 1 in college, 1 18 year old High School senior, and a high 7 figure income, so now we buy extras that many would call unnecessary (Sushi last night with my kids and daughter’s 3 friends. $400 tab and I left a $200 tip. Unnecessary). My 21 year old daughter is on Spring break, so I flew her and her 3 roommates out to visit San Francisco and check out Northern CA. Also unnecessary. I just bought an 89 HP tractor because we added a 15 acres property with 2 more houses to our ranch- unnecessary. My compact tractor was just too small. The new tractor has AC, Heat, Blue tooth, etc.- Unnecessary. I kept the compact anyway for my 3 younger boys to learn to work with- very necessary.
Oh yeah I thought it was crazy when I loose almost 5k a month just due to income taxes… when you hear the big number you think you have a lot but taxes are insane!!
Taxes are a killer for self employed people. I gave myself and my wife a “reasonable salary” from our S-Corp of $60k each. We made a max Roth 401k contribution of $23k each and all the rest went to taxes. That year I was surprised when my additional tax bill was another $106,000. In response to that we opened another corporation, a C-Corp, and did a few more adjustments to get taxes under control.
My dad is the best example of this. He made six figures for years but he was always complained about not having enough money for having a decent home and schooling. Why? He always bought broken down cars, houses and land every month like a hoarder. I make six figures now, and I’m 100% for living below my means.
You can “feel” broke at any income. It’s a natural consequence of not controlling your finances. Of course this is why gaining that control is primarily psychological not mathematical
I’m 25 & make 130K and I don’t feel poor. I grew up with no money as my parents are from another country. I moved out at 18 and realized I wouldn’t be able to retire on $17.83 per hour, I went back to school and worked while going to school. I worked my way up. Got through school debt free and paid off a modest car (2018 Honda fit) in 2.5 years. My goal this year is to save $50K, and max out my 401k. I live in a high cost of living area however I live in a nice reasonable apartment and have a dog. My boyfriend is 29 and has a masters degree in engineering. He makes 175k and he also has no car payment or student loans. He saves most of his money.
Dave woke me up in 2020 when my practice was shut down and my bills kept rolling in. Went through the baby steps in 18 months and now live debt free investing 1/2 of my income on my way to FI in 2029!
As my salary grows, I realize being a responsible human comes at a cost. The basics and secondaries aren’t really options anymore. So I can see that struggle, BUT along with that you better be stashing hay while that sun shines.
Good episode. No sane person making 175K thinks they're poor. People are frustrated with the value of a dollar compared to 5 years ago. It's still doable, but it's increasingly difficult to live like we used to on what might be considered a "normal" income. That doesn't mean you're poor, it just means it's harder, and people vent on surveys. Thanks for the show.
Our household income is around there and I say we’re poor all the time. You know why? Because we are lol. We have a lot of debt so in our case, income doesn’t matter. We’re poor until we’re not.
Our household income take home is around $80,000/year and we do not feel poor whatsoever. No kids, no crazy expenses, paid for vehicles. Some debt that we have left to pay off but not exceeding $10,000 worth. We are 25 and 27 years old. Edit to add: We had significant debt up until this year. I truly pray shows like this can give hope to those who haven’t created healthy money habits yet or need guidance. It is possible to win with money even in times such as this!
Pro tips: live in neighborhood that is median income is half your income. You will not be tempted to keep up with anyone except yourself or your peers that most likely make 1/2 your income.
i think you underestimate the spending habits of some people. I know people that make well into 6 figures and have zero savings because they like taking vacations 8 times a year. it's not about what you make it's about what you spend.
"I wanna meet these people." I live in the Bay Area (CA), and know someone that makes well over $300K/year, and claims that she doesn't understand how people can survive on less than $100K/year. I barely make $125K, and little does she realized the "average" income is more like $50K-$75K in the Bay, and $30K nationally. Sufficed to say, it takes everything in me not to punch her whenever she talks about money. Trust me, you DON'T want to meet these people. They can be insufferable at times.
I’m in San Francisco. Pre-Covid, It’s pretty tight at 6 figures, when you factor in rent and “insufferable” student loans. That was more than 1 paycheck. I’d get a $10k bonus, after taxes, it’s around $5500. I throw it all into my student loans and it barely makes a dent…. $300k is a lot, but they’re not totally wrong that it’s hard. Doable. But hard to feel like you have good footing.
@@DonutAgain me and who i'm speaking of are both single gals, and she said this before she bought her house. I have my own mortgage, longer than her, and was only able to afford to buy bc i got help from my parents. Prior to that she had no outstanding loans or debt. What I'm trying to say is that some people just don't have any perspective and like to make outlandish statements and put their foot in their mouth. I understand living in the Bay Area is expensive, but to say people can't live on less than 100K greatly lacks perspective bc MANY do so.
She only said she doesn’t understand how others manage, and her comment is based on her own situation. By that comment alone, it doesn’t sound like she’s insufferable as you put it.
@@AaBbCcDdEeF well... you don't hear her tone and how she talks about other people and money in general, so perhaps your judgement of the situation isn't as informed as mine.
Helped out a buddy of mine about 15 years ago he bought an older BMW in for maintenance. While waiting for him I looked at the prices of newer BMW and one of the Cars I remember was 300k. It was insane to me.
A $100k income being a symbol of wealth was a concept thought of in the 70s and 80s. But $100k has the same buying power in 1985 as $292k has today. A family making $175k is not poor.. but not filthy rich as the culture would lead you to believe or expect.
@@kimberleyhunter6815 While I see you thinking about the numbers do you know what it cost to rent in a "good" area in SF CA? Also have you even taken into account other cost like student loans, cars loans, child support etc.? And to get a 175K job or jobs that might cost some people 100K to 300K or so. The cost to live and the cost of past bills and the cost of current bills can easily equal or surpass 9K a month depending on conditions. I am not even thinking about supporting others etc... The way I see it I cost about $17 an hour just to be short each month ($18 minimum to have some left over) so in a places 5X more expensive than where I live (my base cost should cost about 2,400 - 2,800) their base cost could easily be 7K to 9K much of it being housing (my area 1K is not enough for all areas!!!!)
Loved the discussion about the poverty line. I am well aware of what poverty is, lol. We used to get food out of dumpsters. We'd get a box of rotten bananas and take it home and put it in freezer boxes and eat it like a popcycle. I still love frozen rotten bananas. I wonder how many people know what lemon curd is. I didn't until a few years ago when a friend gave me the recipe for canned lemon curd. So now I have lemon curd, lime curd and satsuma curd sitting on the shelf in jars. It's really good. I didn't know they put it in drinks though. I thought they put it in cakes. I eat it with a spoon, lol.
Teachers are just trying to get through the day! 🤣🤣🤣🤣 so true! I just noticed my car is the worst looking in our parking lot. It will stay that way until I reach other goals.
Great show! Makes a person think about the topic at hand - especially the Guilty as Charged question. I am proud my husband and I are debt free, including our house, and love to discuss it. However, I also do the same thing you guys do and shy away from it unless friends ask me about our finances. They have to be really close friends to discuss it though. Lindsey - the mocktail made me very thirsty and wished I was there LOL
Rachel is loaded and that is okay. I consider her fairly modest considering that she has enough money to pay cash for a house and a Tesla. I’m sure her family could have fancier stuff if they financed them. I think people can be modest at different income levels.
It’s all perspective. If you are the lowest earner in your friend group, even if you’re making high six figures, you will feel poorer than an Average Joe surrounded by other middle income friends and family.
Exactly. I live in Rochester hills Michigan and have a 1400sq ft home. Paid 195,000 @ 2.7% interest. One Jeep Cherokee 2019 @ 0.7% interest. Making about $210,000 a year. I feel extremely poor in my area I have zero CC debt.
I'm in that demographic but, with the added income, I'm for the first time responsibly saving for retirement, emergencies, house maintenance, auto maintenance, recurring expenses, etc. I also live in a very high cost of living and my mortgage is expensive (NOVA). I am FULLY aware of my privilege and am not complaining. However, I think what makes me feel 'poor' is watching my peers live extravagant lifestyles while making as much or less than I do. I don't know how people do it.
I live in a small town that’s more about the pickup truck so big money to me is like a fully loaded Chevy truck with all the bells and whistles, a Tesla to me is more just nerdy than luxury lol. But luxury to me is for sure a Range Rover. Or a brand new top of the line suv.
@ 14:43 lol idk what you're talking about, I worked at a dealership for 9 years and at least for us, YES THAT IS YOUR FILTER and sometimes it was just kinda dirty and sometimes it had actual mice nests in it along with twigs, dirt, leaves, etc...
I seriously wish I was there with you guys. You both are hilarious… and informative! I literally just screenshot the ingredients. Making it this weekend! 🍋
depends on your definition of luxury. Tesla's, at least in the past were built VERY poorly. terrible panel gaps, rattles, etc. They cost a lot, but it wouldn't feel like the experience you should be receiving for the money you spent, compared to a BMW, Mercedes or similar luxury car at the same price point.
I think I’m with Rachel! I definitely think Tesla is an above average vehicle but Mercedes and BMW feel more luxury to me. I appreciate the content and the laughs ya’ll 🤗
Heck, even the Honda Accord is nicer than a Tesla. When you buy a Tesla, you're paying for the technology and the brand, not the build quality. But I guess the branding works, because some of those people thought Tesla is above BMW and Mercedes when it comes to luxury LOL
I think people need to create a sense of forced scarcity. I have my paycheck automatically split into my savings account 401(k) and my checking account and I pretend that my savings and 401(k) doesn’t exist
I mean considering the avg cost of a house is still 2.5 times a 175k/yr in the US I wholeheartedly understand why people who make that much would still feel poor. I'm sure there's a lot of people in this country rn who are outgrowing a home but can't afford to move in to something with a more appropriate amount of space.... I mean we're literally living in an economic period that is arguably as bad as the great depression.
I’m new to your show On my way back home on the train full on of people I busted out laughing when you recalled the episode of Kim kardashian Thank you I needed that laugh
$175k, pre-tax, for a married couple, isn’t enough to afford (with putting 20% down on a 15-year fixed rate mortgage) a $300k home, having a 2% annual property tax, $2000 annual homeowners insurance cost, and $100/month HOA fee by Ramsey’s own standards (i.e., a $3k total monthly housing payment on less than $12k in after-tax monthly income, so more than a 25% housing cost). Meanwhile, the median house price in the US today is over $410k. 😅 So, call that what you want, and tout that it’s a high relative/percentile income if you want (admittedly, it is), but it’s hard to call that income “doing well” if you didn’t already get into that median-priced house for half the price and at half or 1/3 of today’s mortgage rate.
I am shocked and appalled. We are a single income household. My husband makes 80k a year gross. We own our home and two cars and have two kids. I’m a stay at home mom and we are NOT poor. Do we live in luxury? No. But we are so blessed to have all we need. 10% off the top goes back to God. First. That’s why we have always had enough ❤
George clocking J Lo’s tea is sending me!!!😂 Sometimes I got to remind myself that he’s a Christian living in the south, where the tea is probably spiked to begin with and it’s cold enough to give you freezer burn!😂
For two people who have an awesome handle on money and budgeting and being a good steward with money, I'm blown away by both have absolutely NO understanding how EVs are MORE expensive than a gasoline car, AND are far worse for the economy and the environment than ANY internal combustion engine vehicle. They are FAR more expensive to buy and maintain. Those EVs are UNDERWRITTEN by taxpayer dollars to the tune of multiple thousands, even tens of thousands of dollars. If consumers had to pay the ACTUAL cost, and the government wasn't punishing internal combustion engine cars and the oil industry in general, the TRUTH would be far more evident. Y'all need to do some true research into it.
Drive a 2017 Tacoma. Bought new, paid off in 30 months. The derision I got for buying a "taco" instead of a Colorado that cost 15k more was ridiculous. It does what I need it to do. Carry my outdoor gear and get me down the road. I'm keeping this truck until the wheels fall off.
@Playingwithproxies I live in a GM town. The employer loyalty is still pretty high even after all the BS they've done with the line workers. My sis-in-law had 35 yrs in with them, she is the most vocal.
George, it may be that someplace is scamming, but not all. My local Jiffy Lube has earned a good reputation in my book; they show me very clean filters quite frequently, and they discouraged me from getting the brakes done when they didn’t need to be. That said, I’m highly sensitive to pollen in the spring, and I used to be able to drive around early in the spring, with my car, set indoor air only, and I would be OK. After a month or two, it stopped working. I went to change the air filter for the cabin of the car, and it helped. That said, I had on the car for over a year, and who knows when it was changed before that?
Dealership was trying to charge me $90 to replace the air filter. I looked up a video and was able to replace it myself in 5 minutes...Not including the filter which was another $60...Got the filter for $40
I have a family member in their 50s who makes $100k/year and has over $1200 in car payments on a $75k Lexus... 75% of their annual income on the OTD price of a car! And guess what? They like to tell me "yeah things are really tight right now I'm basically broke things are hard" I'LL BET THEY WOULDN'T BE SO HARD IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE A CAR WORTH 75% OF YOUR INCOME AND A $1200 CAR PAYMENT. The fact that anyone can spend that much of their income on a car then complain when they're broke/poor is astonishing to me and a slap in the face to people who are struggling from actual bad life circumstances and low incomes instead of struggling because of terribly irresponsible financial decisions with a high salary. For context, I also make $100k. We make the same income. Guess who's not struggling? Me. Same income, same city, vastly different situation. Why? One of us has been smart with their money the other has been an idiot. Don't come to me and complain about being poor when we make the same money and live in the same city. That's on you buddy.
Yeah, some Tesla drivers can be too much. They forget the higher cost car is primarily tech not primarily luxury. They are not a Range Rover nor higher class Mercedes/Lexus/BMW/Infiniti/Rolls Royce/Bugatti/Porsche. They are great cars yet they are tech cars.
I would never say a Tesla is economical because here in Maine electricity is very expensive. You would not be saving money unless you work someplace L.L. Bean which has Tesla charging stations.
Sorry, Rachel and George, but I think a Mercedes and a Tesla are on the same playing field. Great episode, guys!! It was entertaining to watch, and I love this week's "Guilty as Charge" question.
To answer the “question”. I haven’t acted below to fit in, but we were the first in our church group to pay off our house. But ours was older and small than others, and there were 2 engineers, doctor, lawyer, banker, and two school principals. Ironic question was , “what did you do with your stimulus checks”? I was retired, and the capital gains from my investments put us over the threshold for a check. We omitted some facts and said we didn’t get one because of an inheritance. It was only $112,000, and we were already multi millionaires. That is why we didn’t get one.
I think people mix up necessities and wants. If someone thinks a detached house is a necessity, they will feel poor in LA because they may never be able to afford it. But often an apartment is enough. I personally live in an apartment, and I have quite a few friends who are raising 2+ kids in 2-3 bedroom apartments.
We make over $200k in salary but never see half of that due to tax and retirement savings plus health care ect. So $100k is what you might take home. Thats not a lot to raise a family on. We have one 2019 jeep Cherokee finanaced @ 0.7% and our 1400sq ft home mortgage at 2.7% interest in Michigan and are surviving but definitely dont feel well off. Btw our lot is barely bigger that the house and we bought in 2014 and the home appreciation is about 65% Zero CC debt
Depending on the city, depending on if you are married and have kids and other liabilities. Making about the same before taxes, I pay about 5k each month for mortgage and HOA and utilities. My car is 10 years old. Not poor but don't have much to save either.
We make $400k/yr and sometimes feel poor, because I automatically route 33% of our income into investments, and another 33% is taxes. Then our childcare expenses were $50k/yr, so we were living on around $82,000. So that's obviously enough money, but there were months where we went into the red. Thankfully we are about to cut our childcare costs in half, so that will create some more margin.
If you have 33% to spend on investing, you aren't poor in the slightest or struggling. Poor and struggling people can't save even 1%. Just to challenge your perspective a bit. Struggling people pay bills first, then save last.
@@alishavogel7926 Obviously I'm not poor or struggling. My point was that the money is automatically invested before it ever reaches my account, so I'm living on a very small percentage of what I make.
Tesla is a luxury car. My husband had a 20 year old Mercedes diesel when we started dating. My mom thought I found myself a sugar daddy. LOL. Now that was economical.
Loved this episode! In my opinion I put the Tesla up there with Mercedes, Lexus range of luxury cars. In all honesty I didn’t know they had any option under $60k but I never researched it.
Median rent here in NYC is 4400 which comes out to 52800 a year. You need 4 times the rent to qualify on your own so that would be 211200 so yeah if you want your own 1 bedroom apartment in NYC you better make a lot of money😁.
Um. That is not how mortgages work! It's based on property value and debt to income ration for qualification, what it could be rented for is not a factor.
@@tracyfleck3793 This was an example of what you have to earn if you want to rent an apartment. I was not talking about a mortgage. I made around 300k as a software dev when I lived in NYC which is a really good salary I was not "poor" or anything even close , but even with that income it is hard to afford something with 4 bedrooms. I want to get married and have 2 kids that have their own rooms and a homeoffice for myself. Thats why I moved to a much cheaper area out of state and took a pay cut to around 220k and affording a 4-5 bedroom house in the future in my new area is not a problem. What I wanted to say with my initial statement was that you have to decide if it is worth it for you to live in an expensive area. Living in my 20s in NYC in a 2 bedroom with a roommate was great but I do not want that in my 30s-40s. I hope I did not go to much off topic with this answer have a great day😁
He is not talking about a mortgage. Not sure where you got that. He is talking about rent. You need 3-4x the rent cost to qualify to rent an apartment in the city. @@tracyfleck3793
Do people actually say to their friends, "You should have a nicer car," or "Why aren't you in a nicer house?" I wouldn't dream of saying that to someone. Maybe other people are into one another's business a lot more than I and my friends are.
LOL Rachel's reaction is hilarious... I agree with her producer, Tesla definitely feels the same as a BMW or Mercedes in my mind too. You can get an older model that's "economical", but the brand overall does not have that feel at all! Expensive to buy and expensive to replace when the batteries eventually die... definitely mid-tier luxury in my mind.
The point of Tesla is to create luxury electric vehicles. The 3 and Y are a more attainable class of vehicle. So it may depend on what type of Tesla you have. Similar to Mercedes has different classes of vehicles
I grew up under the poverty line. My father supported our family of 5 with 14k/year. I graduated with an engineering degree started working for a fortune 500 company making 50k but living paycheck to paycheck for 5 years. One day it hit me that this math did not make sense. I quit my downtown job where I felt pressured to keep up with my mostly wealthy coworkers, driving high end cars and eating out everyday. I took a higher paying job at a factory in the same city where I was surrounded mostly by blue collar workers. There you were respected for being humble and hard working not materliastic things. I followed the baby steps and within 3 years paid off 20k in consumer debt, saved up a 20% downpayment and bought a house. Finally, 3 years later paid off the house.
" You are the sum of the people you surround yourself with"
I agree with you but I also think you can be surrounded by people like that AND still withstand the pressure to live like everyone else. It just depends on people’s willpower when it all comes down to it. I’ve run into a few people who had that kind of willpower to not care what everyone else thought they should do with their money or time and just live within their means/below their means to maintain their peace.
Incredible, paying off house in 3 years!!!
@@duckylmexicanI agree. Get a decent haircut and wear clean, undamaged clothes. Other than that, who cares about people who care about labels or the car you drive?
I probably spend less than $300 per year on my clothes. I don't let myself get fatter and fatter though so my clothes last. I probably spend around the same ($300 per year) on haircuts though since I had more than enough cheap, botched Supercuts as a kid. So I pay the premium for infrequent high quality haircuts.
This is so great! Thank your parents for teaching you how to appreciate the important things in life.
When I was younger, I had a 6-figure income and spent it all. I was deep in debt for years. Then I sold everything to pay off my debt and travel the world. I lived out of a suitcase and bought only what I could carry or consume. I learned to live on less yet feel rich. Now I’m retired, living on $3K/mo. I can buy whatever I want, but the difference is that I just don’t want that much anymore.
Tesla is a luxury car
I am convinced this was written by AI
Bravo
I can't even enjoy Christmas anymore because I'm surrounded by people who insist of forcing me to have more and more things. I don't think they will ever understand that everything they buy me just gets donated or trashed because I am contempt with what I own. I just want to play a board game or a card game with people for a day.
@@thedude5040omg totally agree!!!
My friend husband works in the oilfield. He makes GOOD MONEY. and she worked also (4 kids) But they always lived paycheck to paycheck. Going on trips, buying brand new vehicles, expensive jewelry, extravagant parties. "Lending" money to her siblings. They never paid her back.
My mom recently told me she doesn’t feel rich- well off, but not “rich.” She and my dad are retired, no debt, their daily expenses are covered by pension and social security, but they also have several million in retirement and brokerage accounts. They just bought a brand-new car (replacing a 17-year-old car when the transmission died) in cash that was more than they spent on their first home. She couldn’t give me an explanation as to why she isn’t rich, or what would get her there, just that she doesn’t feel it. (My dad does feel rich, because, “I grew up worried about money. Now money is no object. That’s rich.”)
You're going to be that rich when you inherit those assets.
@@lvega5606 unless mom burns thru it 🙂
@@lvega5606 unless mom burns thru it 🙂
Your mom doesn't feel rich because they are not extravagant people. They pay cash after driving the same car for 17 years. They are not people who flaunt what they have, but rather live well and do not squander it on material things they don't need.
Teacher stat is gonna be highly tainted by significant others that did not have to work at all due to husbands salary but found a job that went well with child care. This would represent approximately 33% of my neighborhood.
Cars are such a weird thing to measure people from. I own a Lexus GX, LS 430 and a Porsche 911. I paid $38k for all of them. They’re older but in great shape. I do most of the maintenance on them to save money. Some people have asked me how I afford my cars and I tell them to buy used and pay cash.
I used to have this view of people who owned a Lexus (they must be really rich)..I found out what great cars they are (last a long time) and was hoping to buy one in my budget. My husband and I bought a 2011 RX 350 last year and it feels brand new to us. The inside & outside barely shows its age.
When I was making $175k, I still felt poor, but logically I was not. I think it was because taxes took out about 25%, tithing was 10%, house expenses were about 20%, utilities and expenses were probably another 10%, savings was 15%….I’m already up to 80%, and I’m so grateful I don’t have any more debt! With 5 kids and an active family, I knew I wasn’t poor, but I didn’t “feel” like I was comfortable because I never really had much extra, but money was going to savings and all the important categories.
You just described having $35,000 extra per year. I can only guess you were mindless spending on things that didn’t give you meaning. Am I wrong?
@@tobymarx-dunn2332 100% wrong. As A family of 7 living in CA and making house payments, I was on a pretty tight budget making $175K. Now, I have 1 in college, 1 18 year old High School senior, and a high 7 figure income, so now we buy extras that many would call unnecessary (Sushi last night with my kids and daughter’s 3 friends. $400 tab and I left a $200 tip. Unnecessary). My 21 year old daughter is on Spring break, so I flew her and her 3 roommates out to visit San Francisco and check out Northern CA. Also unnecessary. I just bought an 89 HP tractor because we added a 15 acres property with 2 more houses to our ranch- unnecessary. My compact tractor was just too small. The new tractor has AC, Heat, Blue tooth, etc.- Unnecessary. I kept the compact anyway for my 3 younger boys to learn to work with- very necessary.
I’d love to not feel comfortable in your position.
Oh yeah I thought it was crazy when I loose almost 5k a month just due to income taxes… when you hear the big number you think you have a lot but taxes are insane!!
Taxes are a killer for self employed people. I gave myself and my wife a “reasonable salary” from our S-Corp of $60k each. We made a max Roth 401k contribution of $23k each and all the rest went to taxes. That year I was surprised when my additional tax bill was another $106,000. In response to that we opened another corporation, a C-Corp, and did a few more adjustments to get taxes under control.
Y’all should definitely do an episode where you play Dave’s “Act your wage” board game 😂
Praise God, that's a great idea!
I was not ready for the keeping up with the Kardashians scene at the start 😭
My dad is the best example of this. He made six figures for years but he was always complained about not having enough money for having a decent home and schooling. Why? He always bought broken down cars, houses and land every month like a hoarder. I make six figures now, and I’m 100% for living below my means.
You can “feel” broke at any income. It’s a natural consequence of not controlling your finances. Of course this is why gaining that control is primarily psychological not mathematical
Oh my word this was one of the funniest episodes. I spit my drink out I laughed so hard. You two are gelling amazingly well.
I’m 25 & make 130K and I don’t feel poor. I grew up with no money as my parents are from another country. I moved out at 18 and realized I wouldn’t be able to retire on $17.83 per hour, I went back to school and worked while going to school. I worked my way up. Got through school debt free and paid off a modest car (2018 Honda fit) in 2.5 years. My goal this year is to save $50K, and max out my 401k.
I live in a high cost of living area however I live in a nice reasonable apartment and have a dog.
My boyfriend is 29 and has a masters degree in engineering. He makes 175k and he also has no car payment or student loans. He saves most of his money.
Humblebrag!
O M G this episode had me loling at work. LOVE this show so much!!
18:58 I was dying at the Bridesmaids reference 😂 well done Rachel 👏🏻
This show is great
Everyone needs a friend like George!
Dave woke me up in 2020 when my practice was shut down and my bills kept rolling in. Went through the baby steps in 18 months and now live debt free investing 1/2 of my income on my way to FI in 2029!
As my salary grows, I realize being a responsible human comes at a cost. The basics and secondaries aren’t really options anymore. So I can see that struggle, BUT along with that you better be stashing hay while that sun shines.
Rachel’s kourtney impression was everything i needed today
Good episode. No sane person making 175K thinks they're poor. People are frustrated with the value of a dollar compared to 5 years ago. It's still doable, but it's increasingly difficult to live like we used to on what might be considered a "normal" income. That doesn't mean you're poor, it just means it's harder, and people vent on surveys. Thanks for the show.
I make 50k less than that and i definitely think i am poor.
Edit: for context, im a single guy living with a roommate.
Our household income is around there and I say we’re poor all the time. You know why? Because we are lol. We have a lot of debt so in our case, income doesn’t matter. We’re poor until we’re not.
Our household income take home is around $80,000/year and we do not feel poor whatsoever. No kids, no crazy expenses, paid for vehicles. Some debt that we have left to pay off but not exceeding $10,000 worth. We are 25 and 27 years old.
Edit to add: We had significant debt up until this year. I truly pray shows like this can give hope to those who haven’t created healthy money habits yet or need guidance. It is possible to win with money even in times such as this!
Pro tips: live in neighborhood that is median income is half your income. You will not be tempted to keep up with anyone except yourself or your peers that most likely make 1/2 your income.
i think you underestimate the spending habits of some people. I know people that make well into 6 figures and have zero savings because they like taking vacations 8 times a year. it's not about what you make it's about what you spend.
Rachel saying "Tesla's mid range" am I'm over here with Honda and Toyota thinking I'm fancy😂 well then😂😂😂
"I wanna meet these people."
I live in the Bay Area (CA), and know someone that makes well over $300K/year, and claims that she doesn't understand how people can survive on less than $100K/year. I barely make $125K, and little does she realized the "average" income is more like $50K-$75K in the Bay, and $30K nationally. Sufficed to say, it takes everything in me not to punch her whenever she talks about money.
Trust me, you DON'T want to meet these people. They can be insufferable at times.
I’m in San Francisco. Pre-Covid, It’s pretty tight at 6 figures, when you factor in rent and “insufferable” student loans. That was more than 1 paycheck. I’d get a $10k bonus, after taxes, it’s around $5500. I throw it all into my student loans and it barely makes a dent….
$300k is a lot, but they’re not totally wrong that it’s hard. Doable. But hard to feel like you have good footing.
Do you have kids? Do you have loans or mortgage? You might be younger and have less liabilities.
@@DonutAgain me and who i'm speaking of are both single gals, and she said this before she bought her house. I have my own mortgage, longer than her, and was only able to afford to buy bc i got help from my parents. Prior to that she had no outstanding loans or debt. What I'm trying to say is that some people just don't have any perspective and like to make outlandish statements and put their foot in their mouth. I understand living in the Bay Area is expensive, but to say people can't live on less than 100K greatly lacks perspective bc MANY do so.
She only said she doesn’t understand how others manage, and her comment is based on her own situation. By that comment alone, it doesn’t sound like she’s insufferable as you put it.
@@AaBbCcDdEeF well... you don't hear her tone and how she talks about other people and money in general, so perhaps your judgement of the situation isn't as informed as mine.
Look forward to this each week. Love it!
Helped out a buddy of mine about 15 years ago he bought an older BMW in for maintenance. While waiting for him I looked at the prices of newer BMW and one of the Cars I remember was 300k. It was insane to me.
Is it just me or is this is one of the best entertainment/educational grownup shows in the world? 🤩❤️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
I LOVE watching this podcast. You all are so funny together.
LOL😂 ohhh I hope I never forget that!!! “It’s not an ish-you it’s an ish-me”!!😂😂
A $100k income being a symbol of wealth was a concept thought of in the 70s and 80s. But $100k has the same buying power in 1985 as $292k has today. A family making $175k is not poor.. but not filthy rich as the culture would lead you to believe or expect.
Dude since when is anything under 1 million a year rich almost everywhere? 175K is only 1million and 750K in 10 years....
@@kimberleyhunter6815 Just because they make 175 does not mean their bills are not high.
@@kimberleyhunter6815 While I see you thinking about the numbers do you know what it cost to rent in a "good" area in SF CA? Also have you even taken into account other cost like student loans, cars loans, child support etc.? And to get a 175K job or jobs that might cost some people 100K to 300K or so. The cost to live and the cost of past bills and the cost of current bills can easily equal or surpass 9K a month depending on conditions. I am not even thinking about supporting others etc... The way I see it I cost about $17 an hour just to be short each month ($18 minimum to have some left over) so in a places 5X more expensive than where I live (my base cost should cost about 2,400 - 2,800) their base cost could easily be 7K to 9K much of it being housing (my area 1K is not enough for all areas!!!!)
Not rich at all. Making it and being able to pay bills and not have credit card debt is about all $200k gets my family
@@kimberleyhunter6815so no retirement investment, no health care or anything? Property taxes?
I love listening to both of you guys! Feels like I'm hanging out with some friends who are just looking out for me❤
Loved the discussion about the poverty line. I am well aware of what poverty is, lol. We used to get food out of dumpsters. We'd get a box of rotten bananas and take it home and put it in freezer boxes and eat it like a popcycle. I still love frozen rotten bananas. I wonder how many people know what lemon curd is. I didn't until a few years ago when a friend gave me the recipe for canned lemon curd. So now I have lemon curd, lime curd and satsuma curd sitting on the shelf in jars. It's really good. I didn't know they put it in drinks though. I thought they put it in cakes. I eat it with a spoon, lol.
I feel like Rachel needed some alcohol in her drink. She was wound up in the guilty as charges segment. 😂😂
Teachers are just trying to get through the day! 🤣🤣🤣🤣 so true! I just noticed my car is the worst looking in our parking lot. It will stay that way until I reach other goals.
Me at 18:00 wondering if that’s ACTUALLY a mocktail 😅😅😅
Y’all I am dying!! Hilarious! Listened on my podcast app and had to watch it on video!! Too funny!! Love y’all two!!
I love the stoic guy sitting in the background, doesn't move the whole video 😂
Great show! Makes a person think about the topic at hand - especially the Guilty as Charged question. I am proud my husband and I are debt free, including our house, and love to discuss it. However, I also do the same thing you guys do and shy away from it unless friends ask me about our finances. They have to be really close friends to discuss it though. Lindsey - the mocktail made me very thirsty and wished I was there LOL
Rachel is loaded and that is okay. I consider her fairly modest considering that she has enough money to pay cash for a house and a Tesla. I’m sure her family could have fancier stuff if they financed them. I think people can be modest at different income levels.
It’s all perspective. If you are the lowest earner in your friend group, even if you’re making high six figures, you will feel poorer than an Average Joe surrounded by other middle income friends and family.
At that point you need different friends.....😊
Exactly. I live in Rochester hills Michigan and have a 1400sq ft home. Paid 195,000 @ 2.7% interest. One Jeep Cherokee 2019 @ 0.7% interest. Making about $210,000 a year. I feel extremely poor in my area I have zero CC debt.
@@Pkilla80Your problem is not net worth then; it is self worth.
I love that the guy in the green shirt and jeans is asleep for more than half of this episode. He's next to girl in flowered shirt and red shoes.
I'm in that demographic but, with the added income, I'm for the first time responsibly saving for retirement, emergencies, house maintenance, auto maintenance, recurring expenses, etc. I also live in a very high cost of living and my mortgage is expensive (NOVA). I am FULLY aware of my privilege and am not complaining. However, I think what makes me feel 'poor' is watching my peers live extravagant lifestyles while making as much or less than I do. I don't know how people do it.
They do it with debt, lots and lots of debt. Or they're trust fund babies
Count your blessings, name them one by one 🎶 this song helped me
I live in a small town that’s more about the pickup truck so big money to me is like a fully loaded Chevy truck with all the bells and whistles, a Tesla to me is more just nerdy than luxury lol. But luxury to me is for sure a Range Rover. Or a brand new top of the line suv.
This episode was the best ever!! Laughed so much.
@ 14:43 lol idk what you're talking about, I worked at a dealership for 9 years and at least for us, YES THAT IS YOUR FILTER and sometimes it was just kinda dirty and sometimes it had actual mice nests in it along with twigs, dirt, leaves, etc...
I seriously wish I was there with you guys. You both are hilarious… and informative! I literally just screenshot the ingredients. Making it this weekend! 🍋
A car that can drive itself is a luxury car. Sorry Rachel! Lol
Watching this for a second time. George is funny. He was made for this kind of work.
I love you guys and this episode was great, despite the existential crisis you gave Rachel! lol
depends on your definition of luxury. Tesla's, at least in the past were built VERY poorly. terrible panel gaps, rattles, etc. They cost a lot, but it wouldn't feel like the experience you should be receiving for the money you spent, compared to a BMW, Mercedes or similar luxury car at the same price point.
I think I’m with Rachel! I definitely think Tesla is an above average vehicle but Mercedes and BMW feel more luxury to me. I appreciate the content and the laughs ya’ll 🤗
Heck, even the Honda Accord is nicer than a Tesla. When you buy a Tesla, you're paying for the technology and the brand, not the build quality. But I guess the branding works, because some of those people thought Tesla is above BMW and Mercedes when it comes to luxury LOL
The deep laugh in the background is the best laugh.
I think people need to create a sense of forced scarcity. I have my paycheck automatically split into my savings account 401(k) and my checking account and I pretend that my savings and 401(k) doesn’t exist
You don't have kids
@@Pkilla80how did you understand it?
Yes paying yourself first!
I mean considering the avg cost of a house is still 2.5 times a 175k/yr in the US I wholeheartedly understand why people who make that much would still feel poor. I'm sure there's a lot of people in this country rn who are outgrowing a home but can't afford to move in to something with a more appropriate amount of space.... I mean we're literally living in an economic period that is arguably as bad as the great depression.
Lyndsay needs to come out with all the drinks they’ve done in the last year so my wife and I can have the mocktails. Please
I’m new to your show
On my way back home on the train full on of people I busted out laughing when you recalled the episode of Kim kardashian
Thank you I needed that laugh
I totally class Tesla as a luxury car, right up there in the same rank as Mercedes, Audi, BMW.
$175k, pre-tax, for a married couple, isn’t enough to afford (with putting 20% down on a 15-year fixed rate mortgage) a $300k home, having a 2% annual property tax, $2000 annual homeowners insurance cost, and $100/month HOA fee by Ramsey’s own standards (i.e., a $3k total monthly housing payment on less than $12k in after-tax monthly income, so more than a 25% housing cost). Meanwhile, the median house price in the US today is over $410k. 😅
So, call that what you want, and tout that it’s a high relative/percentile income if you want (admittedly, it is), but it’s hard to call that income “doing well” if you didn’t already get into that median-priced house for half the price and at half or 1/3 of today’s mortgage rate.
I am shocked and appalled. We are a single income household. My husband makes 80k a year gross. We own our home and two cars and have two kids. I’m a stay at home mom and we are NOT poor. Do we live in luxury? No. But we are so blessed to have all we need.
10% off the top goes back to God. First. That’s why we have always had enough ❤
George clocking J Lo’s tea is sending me!!!😂
Sometimes I got to remind myself that he’s a Christian living in the south, where the tea is probably spiked to begin with and it’s cold enough to give you freezer burn!😂
For two people who have an awesome handle on money and budgeting and being a good steward with money, I'm blown away by both have absolutely NO understanding how EVs are MORE expensive than a gasoline car, AND are far worse for the economy and the environment than ANY internal combustion engine vehicle. They are FAR more expensive to buy and maintain. Those EVs are UNDERWRITTEN by taxpayer dollars to the tune of multiple thousands, even tens of thousands of dollars. If consumers had to pay the ACTUAL cost, and the government wasn't punishing internal combustion engine cars and the oil industry in general, the TRUTH would be far more evident. Y'all need to do some true research into it.
Drive a 2017 Tacoma. Bought new, paid off in 30 months. The derision I got for buying a "taco" instead of a Colorado that cost 15k more was ridiculous. It does what I need it to do. Carry my outdoor gear and get me down the road. I'm keeping this truck until the wheels fall off.
I bought a 2020 Tacoma used in 2021 I’ve never had anyone ask me why I didn’t buy a Colorado 😅
@Playingwithproxies I live in a GM town. The employer loyalty is still pretty high even after all the BS they've done with the line workers. My sis-in-law had 35 yrs in with them, she is the most vocal.
😂😂😂😂 you both had me laughing 😂😂😂😂
Such a great video! It's really a good reminder.
George, it may be that someplace is scamming, but not all. My local Jiffy Lube has earned a good reputation in my book; they show me very clean filters quite frequently, and they discouraged me from getting the brakes done when they didn’t need to be. That said, I’m highly sensitive to pollen in the spring, and I used to be able to drive around early in the spring, with my car, set indoor air only, and I would be OK. After a month or two, it stopped working. I went to change the air filter for the cabin of the car, and it helped. That said, I had on the car for over a year, and who knows when it was changed before that?
Dealership was trying to charge me $90 to replace the air filter. I looked up a video and was able to replace it myself in 5 minutes...Not including the filter which was another $60...Got the filter for $40
You guys are so fun. Thanks for sharing your friendship.😊
Lard 😂 oh George, love you brother. This was a fun show y’all! That drink 🍹 sounds so good! Refreshing. Gotta try 👍
Omg! Best episode ever!! 😂 “help me, I’m poor!”
I have a friend who makes 6 figures and manages to throw away all of his money and somehow miss payments on his debts.
I'm surprised George didn't get hit with a toilet paper expense 😂
Binge watching, love this podcast!
All the cars you mentioned are on the same level Rachel!!😅
WAS a $30,000 car. You can’t find a Tesla new for even close to that now, and even used ones are not much below that.
With tax credit it is around 33k
It's all about needs vs wants.
You can raise a family for $30,000 a year. These people are ridiculous.
My rent without utilities is $40k a year. And that’s a great deal for where we live.
I have a family member in their 50s who makes $100k/year and has over $1200 in car payments on a $75k Lexus... 75% of their annual income on the OTD price of a car! And guess what? They like to tell me "yeah things are really tight right now I'm basically broke things are hard" I'LL BET THEY WOULDN'T BE SO HARD IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE A CAR WORTH 75% OF YOUR INCOME AND A $1200 CAR PAYMENT. The fact that anyone can spend that much of their income on a car then complain when they're broke/poor is astonishing to me and a slap in the face to people who are struggling from actual bad life circumstances and low incomes instead of struggling because of terribly irresponsible financial decisions with a high salary. For context, I also make $100k. We make the same income. Guess who's not struggling? Me. Same income, same city, vastly different situation. Why? One of us has been smart with their money the other has been an idiot. Don't come to me and complain about being poor when we make the same money and live in the same city. That's on you buddy.
Yeah, some Tesla drivers can be too much. They forget the higher cost car is primarily tech not primarily luxury. They are not a Range Rover nor higher class Mercedes/Lexus/BMW/Infiniti/Rolls Royce/Bugatti/Porsche. They are great cars yet they are tech cars.
I would never say a Tesla is economical because here in Maine electricity is very expensive. You would not be saving money unless you work someplace L.L. Bean which has Tesla charging stations.
Sorry, Rachel and George, but I think a Mercedes and a Tesla are on the same playing field. Great episode, guys!! It was entertaining to watch, and I love this week's "Guilty as Charge" question.
Base model 3 is like $32,000 after credits. Hardly luxury car prices. Now look at trucks
To answer the “question”. I haven’t acted below to fit in, but we were the first in our church group to pay off our house. But ours was older and small than others, and there were 2 engineers, doctor, lawyer, banker, and two school principals. Ironic question was , “what did you do with your stimulus checks”? I was retired, and the capital gains from my investments put us over the threshold for a check. We omitted some facts and said we didn’t get one because of an inheritance. It was only $112,000, and we were already multi millionaires. That is why we didn’t get one.
haha love the impersonations
I think people mix up necessities and wants. If someone thinks a detached house is a necessity, they will feel poor in LA because they may never be able to afford it. But often an apartment is enough. I personally live in an apartment, and I have quite a few friends who are raising 2+ kids in 2-3 bedroom apartments.
We make over $200k in salary but never see half of that due to tax and retirement savings plus health care ect. So $100k is what you might take home. Thats not a lot to raise a family on. We have one 2019 jeep Cherokee finanaced @ 0.7% and our 1400sq ft home mortgage at 2.7% interest in Michigan and are surviving but definitely dont feel well off. Btw our lot is barely bigger that the house and we bought in 2014 and the home appreciation is about 65% Zero CC debt
By far one of the funniest episodes 😂😂😂
Auto air filters are about $10 from Amazon or at an auto supply store.
Love Rachel and George and love Lindsay’s laugh.
Depending on the city, depending on if you are married and have kids and other liabilities. Making about the same before taxes, I pay about 5k each month for mortgage and HOA and utilities. My car is 10 years old. Not poor but don't have much to save either.
We make $400k/yr and sometimes feel poor, because I automatically route 33% of our income into investments, and another 33% is taxes. Then our childcare expenses were $50k/yr, so we were living on around $82,000. So that's obviously enough money, but there were months where we went into the red.
Thankfully we are about to cut our childcare costs in half, so that will create some more margin.
If you have 33% to spend on investing, you aren't poor in the slightest or struggling. Poor and struggling people can't save even 1%.
Just to challenge your perspective a bit. Struggling people pay bills first, then save last.
@@alishavogel7926 Obviously I'm not poor or struggling. My point was that the money is automatically invested before it ever reaches my account, so I'm living on a very small percentage of what I make.
Tesla is a luxury car. My husband had a 20 year old Mercedes diesel when we started dating. My mom thought I found myself a sugar daddy. LOL. Now that was economical.
You can actually find older base tesla's (16-17) used for around 20-25k. Not a bad deal if you live in an area that has a lot of chargers.
Most people charge to 100% nightly in their garage.
Battery degradation is much worse than engine wear on a 7-8 year old car. And a new battery would cost more to replace 😅
Rachel downplaying the Tesla is literally downplaying her wealth. Lol. Take that sip!!
Loved this episode! In my opinion I put the Tesla up there with Mercedes, Lexus range of luxury cars. In all honesty I didn’t know they had any option under $60k but I never researched it.
Median rent here in NYC is 4400 which comes out to 52800 a year. You need 4 times the rent to qualify on your own so that would be 211200 so yeah if you want your own 1 bedroom apartment in NYC you better make a lot of money😁.
😮
Um. That is not how mortgages work! It's based on property value and debt to income ration for qualification, what it could be rented for is not a factor.
@@tracyfleck3793 This was an example of what you have to earn if you want to rent an apartment. I was not talking about a mortgage. I made around 300k as a software dev when I lived in NYC which is a really good salary I was not "poor" or anything even close , but even with that income it is hard to afford something with 4 bedrooms. I want to get married and have 2 kids that have their own rooms and a homeoffice for myself. Thats why I moved to a much cheaper area out of state and took a pay cut to around 220k and affording a 4-5 bedroom house in the future in my new area is not a problem. What I wanted to say with my initial statement was that you have to decide if it is worth it for you to live in an expensive area. Living in my 20s in NYC in a 2 bedroom with a roommate was great but I do not want that in my 30s-40s. I hope I did not go to much off topic with this answer have a great day😁
He is not talking about a mortgage. Not sure where you got that. He is talking about rent. You need 3-4x the rent cost to qualify to rent an apartment in the city. @@tracyfleck3793
NYC (I live here too) is also mostly co-ops which often have stricter rules than the banks which is frustrating in itself. More hoops to jump.
Do people actually say to their friends, "You should have a nicer car," or "Why aren't you in a nicer house?" I wouldn't dream of saying that to someone. Maybe other people are into one another's business a lot more than I and my friends are.
Great show gang
LOL Rachel's reaction is hilarious... I agree with her producer, Tesla definitely feels the same as a BMW or Mercedes in my mind too. You can get an older model that's "economical", but the brand overall does not have that feel at all! Expensive to buy and expensive to replace when the batteries eventually die... definitely mid-tier luxury in my mind.
The point of Tesla is to create luxury electric vehicles. The 3 and Y are a more attainable class of vehicle. So it may depend on what type of Tesla you have. Similar to Mercedes has different classes of vehicles
Very fun show today thankyouall 😊
Nothing is more American than Taylor Swift tickets putting you in debt and saying “it’s great” like Rachel did. 😆
ITS FINALLY THURSDAY!!!!
If you feel poor on 500k a year, you must have 15 kids or something