I am 61 and always owned decent HiFi Systems. I have to admit that the systems nowadays are so much better in sound. Absolutely incomparable. That does not mean that the old system hadn’t a sex appeal that modern systems sometimes lack
sex appeal: "all those knobs and bells and whistles!" I am thinking about the beaded doorway to the master bedroom with a king-sized waterbed. Sex appeal was a bit over the top back in the olden days!
@@harrykressl1251 I was just having fun with Paul's description of "knobs" and your association with "sex appeal." Just poking fun at the oldsters (I'm newly 60!).
I think manufacturers like Hi-Fi Rose are bringing back some very cool and interesting amp designs that still look modern. There are many other companies that believe in tone controls, knobs and buttons - McIntosh, Yamaha, Luxman to name just a few. As a longtime audiophile that has owned dozens of different brands of amplifiers, I prefer those with knobs and tone controls. Paul will try to tell us that we don’t need those, as they have it all dialled in for us - BS. Tone controls are super helpful in correcting all sorts of issues, be it with your room, speaker placement, poor recordings, etc.
I never miss my tone controls for good recordings, there's nothing I'd want to change. The rig is setup so it fits the room and adapted to my taste so it has the right amount of highs, mids and lows. There's nothing tone controls could improve unless a recording is overly bright or has zero low end.
That's why I still have my 26-year-old Onkyo receiver. I want loudness and bass/treble settings and it can still reproduce them. In my experience with newer devices, even if I adjust the equalizer on the source, it is still “flattened” again. And of course I have a profile with extra bass on my AV receiver.
I partially agree: No stereo/mono switches on an amp? Sometimes that's necessary, if you're playing mono vinyl with stereo cartridges, and you want to cancel out the record noise. Or, if you want to cancel out stereo noise in FM broadcasts. Some of those bells and whistles are still necessary today.
Now for the real reason, cost. It's cheaper to manufacture without VU meters and additional knobs and features which in turn means higher profits. And a flimsy plastic case is way cheaper than a metal case or even a wooden case. And on average i think speaker quality went down since the majority of the population buys the cheapest speakers on amazon that sound like garbage and would greatly benefit from tone controls.
@@NateEll I said on average. Yes speaker technology improved greatly but it did on both ends. High end speakers got better but at the same time low end speakers got cheaper and worse and guess what most of the people buy so i don't believe for a second that the average household has better sound quality than in the 70's. People today listen to music on amazons echos alexa which is mono and horrible quality for an example.
I will take my restored vintage receivers (Marantz 2245, Sansui 9090, Sansui G8000 and Pioneer SX980) any day over the modern minimalist stuff made today. AESTHETICS matter. That is why McIntosh today still catches your eye every time. I am sure the PS Audio and Hegel units sound great. But my vintage gear sounds great and LOOKS great too. Beauty matters......
ps audio and hegel are rubbish amp,they using same topology like 50 years old amp but with very cheap parts I can say crap parts like the noisy toroidals in hegel and ps audio
I'm from that era as well, and I still insist on having tone controls on my gear. You can still find gear that has them, and some, like Vincent and Yamaha still offer loudness circuits as well.
@WildernessMusic_GentleSerene As mentioned in the video, compression is an issue. It gets in the way of macro-dynamics (see "loudness wars"). Ultimately, it is a trade-off, for it to sound better on mobile devices, radios, and low-end car stereos. But it is done at the expense of a high-end listening experience on equipment that has a higher dynamic range. The solution would be releasing an uncompressed version in addition to the mainstream one.
@@danielalvarezarribas4660 I could not agree more. the only problem with you or I saying it, is that it will only be understood and believed by people who have actually experienced a high end listening system. (saying that even sounds snobbish but its not about the money its about the quality. I spent my whole live judging systems not knowing what there really was available and cost kept me from knowing) I will add, even the multitudes of people that have listened to my system like any other and said yeah, its nice and clear, but so what. While some will sit with their jaw dropped. When you can hear it, you can hear it.
It sucks because The Recording Industry is producing Music with Headsets, various Portable Players, (maybe Soundbars), and Streaming in mind these days. Not Home Audio. I've run into quite a few Audio Engineers here in New York City who have told Me this often over the years. And I used to do Radio Production. To ears like ours, it's become more evident.
In 1998 I ended up with a new Kenwood reciever, it did not have any knobs, other than the volume control. Everything, bass, treble, mid was adjusted by the remote. It was a home theater reciever, so it had dozens of listening modes, and different sounds to match your taste. After a year, the lack of knobs for bass & treble began to drive me absolutely bonkers!!! Every time I popped a different CD in, I'd usually have to tweak the bass, or mid a touch. Other times, if it was turned up too loud, the reciever would shut off, then I'd have to reset everything back to where I had it before. I ended up acquiring a Yamaha Natural sound receiver from the same era, and instantly fell in love. Bass, treble, loudnes, volume knobs, all where I can see them, and can quickly be adjusted, without fumbling around with a remote. I gave that annoying Kenwood reciever away, I have four different Yamaha Natural sound recievers currently. The loudness knob on the Yamaha differs from the loudness buttons on the 70's recievers, it is more or less a gain/mid/treble combination. You have the ability to tailor the sound of any recording, from any era, to how your ear likes it to sound.
The simple truth of the matter is...present day manufacturers cannot afford to make components with all of that extra stuff! Those were the days when the Japanese ruled the space. The receiver wars, all of the HPM speakers, Nakamichi gear, Phase Linear, SAE, GAS, Carver, and the list goes on. Anyone can say anything they like about"the golden age of HiFi" but if they are honest, there was an awful lot of good gear being produced back then. And the more exclusive brands like Dynaco, Macintosh, Audio Research etc... were available and fantasic. Remember the days of A couple of Phase linear amps and preamps, a set of Klipschorns in the corners, Teac and Technics reel to reels, Marantz 6300s, Kenwood",the rock" turntables, Stanton cartridges, i could go on all day. Nobody will ever convince me that the gear in those days wasnt fantastic if you knew how to set things up. All of this new"cutting edge" gear is great, dont get me wrong, but back in the day the Stereo HiFi experience was so much more hands on. It was gratifying to constantly tweak your system till you got it how you wanted it. Rant over. Peace.
You are so right! Add to all of the above - A great number of Audiophiles of days past were very good with electronics repair and upgrades. Today's kids have no experience with the wonder and excitement of reading through the back pages of magazines looking for the kit to build and experiment with. Today everything is plug-N-play instant gratification. Luckily for me I am, in my late fifties, learning more and more about electronic repairs and do a bit of buying another man's trash, fixing it and enjoying it. All the best - Kevin
It looks great but sonically it just doesn’t hold up to refined modern equipment sorry to say. I grew up in that age of golden hi fi. I owned many spectacular pieces and enjoyed them immensely for their time. Technology continues to evolve otherwise it would be a boring hobby.
@@ralex3697 the greatest sonic improvement has been in the speakers. putting together a "classic" high quality system, matched to new speakers (of one's taste & space) yields damn good sound.
I have to disagree a bit with Paul on this one. All studios sounded different since the beginning of recorded music, and they still do today, which accounts for one of the reasons why we can easily have 2 great recorded and mixed/mastered albums, and one might seem to be lacking in bass (for example), while other does not. There's not such thing as "making it sound like if you were in the studio", because that studio sound is (and it always was) a moving target. That's where some level of tone controls are definitely a good thing, even if we do want to start with the most balanced system, and only make adjustments in recordings that really need it. Fortunately, some streamers are coming with the ability of using PEQ, or bypass it, although they don't solve the problem of those who listen mostly to analogue sources, and want to keep the whole analogue chain. There's no audio system in the world (no matter how much it costs) that's going to sound good with every successful recording made since 1970 (for instance). IMHO, whenever a sound system prevents me from listening to music that I love due to the lack of any adjustment, I don't feel like it is doing its job as it should. I do most of my listening without any sort of tone controls, but I sure want them to be available when I need them. There's no sense in allowing the HiFi system to decide what music is listenable or unlistenable, if another system is able to sound good with the same recording. I'm still amazed by how many HiFi / audiophile manufacturers didn't get this point by now.
Adjusting tone control for records sounds good but impractical especially when you are listening to a playlist. Would anybody like to jump from the couch and adjust the knobs for every song? Unlikely. Even if there's a device that can remember your tuning for each song or album, you still need to adjust them one by one to let them remember the settings. Who will do that kind of thing... So it makes sense the tone control is designed for general taste tweaking or compensate the speaker.
I´m shocked that many audiophiles actually choose music based on how it sounds on their system. I listen to music that I like, and if it sounds bad, I need to switch system, not music. I also have tone controls on my amp. The remixed and rerecorded version of Pink Floyd´s "Momentary Lapse of Reason" had so much bass in my room it drowned everything else in the recording, but for me it was easy to fix it by turning the knob on the amp.
I hv spent lots of years to search final perfect sound which feel me it's the best reproduction of recording as listening at home . Which make smile on my face with thinking it's best I have and rest seeking day night for. Nothing further improvements required after getting this. This goal came true...Yes... I am enjoying each song I threw 🎉on my system. I am dam sure , that I am getting my favourite sound at home with minor tweaks and vintage Hi Fi setup and most importantly the secret speaker placement ❤
The ESS AMT Fiber Tweeter or Heil Is Still a Under The Radar Speaker 🔈 Those Speakers High End Cuts Through Everything If You Just Add a Self Powered Sub That Speaker Set Up Is The Bomb 💣 Damn For Once Someone Is Speaking My Language
With respect to Paul, the proper answer is… you can still buy those, both brand new from a bunch of mostly big name manufacturers & vintage refurbished with new components.
My older brother bought a Pioneer SX-636 (??) and two way KLH speakers. I fell in love with HIFI at 14 and chased megawatt amps and speakers until I heard Klipsch Heresys. Now it is 1976 Cornwalls and a really low watt tube amp. Thank you Hollis for my sickness!!
There are two reasons tone controls are still needed IMO. Every room is different and every person’s hearing is different. A system like Dirac addresses both these issues. Of course you can also try switching components and adding tweaks until it all satisfies you. In the auto repair world we would call this more expensive route “loading the parts cannon”. It’s not surprising that people who sell equipment prefer this latter route.
1980 I upgraded to a Meridian 101 and Meridian M1 active speakers. The pre-amp selected between turntable, tuner and tape. No treble, no bass control, no loudness, no filters. Back then I was used to three tape inputs, aux, phono, tuner, then CD, 4 VCR, DVD and ever needing more switching so used a QED passive switch box. Now I think the 101b has too many control, using it for moving coil from my 1990 Linn Sondek LP12 serviced, partly upgraded in 2022. I have yet to hear a better system. As good, sure. Could live with them too, sure but really within one bar of music outright better I don't think so. Now if my 71 year old ears could pick up the frequencies I enjoyed 44 years ago maybe; but I am stuck with what I am left with. As long as when play a track or watching a movie and I can still say damn they sound good I am happy.
Except that back in the '70s we used the loudness button all the time. 😅 It made the speakers more flat cos the,speakers either didn't have inductors on the woofers or the inductors were too small. And the boxes were too thin.
@@Justwantahover That's not it. The Loudness control was meant to compensate for they way our ears' frequency response changes at low level - especially the way we can't hear bass (and to a lesser extent treble) when the volume is low. Look up "Fletcher Munson curves". My old Alba amp had a variable Loudness control, which I thought was a great idea.
That means something else is wrong. My rig sounds great at low levels and at high(er) levels. If you start losing a lot of definition, something's not quite going right. It is important to audit audio at low levels though, loud is easy.
No, human ears have lower sensitivity to bass and treble at lower volumes. Doesn't matter how good your hifi is, you still should have EQ for low listening volumes
I'm sorry Paul I hear ya! I'm 69 and have the 70's system of my dreams and it makes me so happy. Pioneer sx-950 Technics turntable and some good ole fashioned JBL's and a pair of Pioneer HPM-900's. All controls are flat and I have a decent set of cartridges and the sound is amazing. And the digital hi-res files I play back from ripping those records are outstanding to my ears. Yes If I visited your special listening room 1 I would be blown away. But I do not have 10's of thousands of dollars for it. Peace and Love! Christopher 🙂
While switches don't make audio interesting the charge of boring has a certain sense. The resurgence of LPs is one way that there is a reaction against boring digital sound. Another is the resurgence of tube amplifiers and also of high sensitivity speakers. I'm biased obviously.
Humans crave multi sensory experiences. That’s maybe a reason why modern equipment is often described as boring. Press the play button on your phone and you are done. Same reason why books die hard despite all the advantages of ebooks.
Costs - nothing but costs. Today's HiFi manufacturers don't implement controls because of the cost! Unfortunately, this leads to many recordings of good music, but of poorer recording quality, becoming more or less unplayable. That newer equipment is ugly compared to older ones, is another matter.
@@asterixx6878 PS Audio preamps seem to range $3K to $7K. If the market demands more controls, they can spend $25 or $50 in Chinese parts, and charge the customer several hundred dollars additional. Or the consumer may opt for Yamaha, Pioneer or Onkyo receivers for fraction of the cost with all the bells and whistles. The problems with many of my acquaintances, they overuse the tone controls and sound effects. They'd do the same if they acquire high end systems with tone controls. It would drive the high end audio concept to the gutter.
@@asterixx6878 Had the audiophile consumer demanded tone controls, they would have been on audiophile preamps. The cost could be under $20 in Chinese parts, for which they could charge couple hundred extra. High end preamplifiers could cost $3K, $7K or more. My acquaintances overuse the tone controls and sound effects on their hifi receivers. They would do the same with a high end gear, and defeat the purpose of high end audio. It seems like audiophiles veer on the side of "relative" purity.
I'm afraid I'm old school with a receiver I bought in 1973 playing CD's through a bluray player and a DAC. My turntable and vinyl went to my son who used them to digitize the albums through software for replay on his bluetooth system. Over the years I hooked speakers to the system both purchased and of my own design. As my hearing degraded with age and abuse, I have used my "old fashioned" tone and loudness controls to compensate somewhat and mainly use headphones. I agree with Paul regarding the quality or lack of it in more recently recorded music. When limitations on the user's ability to play or possibly even want high fidelity based on their method of storage and playback the industry was happy to oblige. When I look at what I spent on a component system back in 1980 and adjust for inflation to today, I'm not in PS Audio range, but it still would buy a decent system.
I don´t use high end modern Hifi systems, because the resolution is so good, most recordings sound worse, than on older equipment. It somehow seems to highlight the noise instead of the music. When the qualitiy of the recording matches the system, the listening experience is phenomenal, but this is rarely the case. Young people listen to the music mostly on their phones, so recording engineers will serve this audience in the future, which means bad news for high end Hifi but good news for Charlie Parker records from the 50s, because they sound "natural" to Gen Z. Interesting times we live in 🙂
Yes, sound is important, yet I think a lot of consumers still listen with their eyes and the visual appeal of products are also a major part of a purchasing decision. I too wish companies would take some of the design cues from items that were made during the hey-day of audio. I still find that stuff to be cool and also tire of the featureless modern black boxes that most manufactures currently produce. In the space of retro-audio I think Yamaha does a good job of creating components that emulate the look and functions of systems that were available in the 70's and 80's. Sadly, most of today's stuff has lost a lot of the functionality and sexy curb side appeal of the gear I grew up with.
This, also when i see those modern equipment with nothing but a power switch and a volume knob (and maybe a stupid remote) i feel ripped off. I feel as if modern day manufacturers are laughing their socks of selling us so much less for 10x the money back then.
The letter writer is 100% correct. They charge top dollar for bargain bin gear with no features but a power button. And some pre-amps are just a volume knob, input selector and power button. I bet it just kills the manufacturers of modern gear to even put a LED above the power button. That is costing them another 10 cents of profit on their $20,000 amp!
My first stereo had all the bells and whistles, equalizers and flashing lights. One day I saw an ad for Linn Hi-FI. It showed an integrated amp with nothing but an on/off switch, selector and volume knob; a turntable and simple two-way speakers. I fell in love with its simplicity and eventually upgraded to much simpler gear. I do have tone controls, but rarely use them except maybe to turn down boomy bass.
Yeah you could explain it away by saying - "older systems and speakers were inadequate back then - but now they are much better and so we don't need the controls and switches and beautiful metal knobs and sexy meters and brushed aluminum faces etc." Or you could throw some honesty in there and just admit that stereo equipment manufacturers today are making boatloads more profit by not designing and building their equipment with all the bells and whistles of yesterday.
@@CashGravel Doing stuff electronically and with software is nowhere near as good as actually having the physical VU meters and Knobs etc. It's kind of like the way Tesla cars have that big screen in the middle - with no gauges or physical controls anywhere in the car. What a lunchbag letdown.
@@erdemkaya6472 can’t tell if you’re being satirical or not. I’ve had plenty of vintage gear in my day and while it is cool looking, I’m perfectly fine letting superior electronic crossovers do the work these days I run my Maggie through a subwoofer with a high Pass filter and built a new crossover so to be honest none of this applies to me . YMMV.
I ask Paul Klipsch when I took Cornwalls home from the store to try why there was a 15: woofer but no bass, He told me that is what the bass knob is for.
But loudness is there to correct your hearing at low volumes, not the system. If you don't need it today either the loudness is added defacto or your speakers boost bass and treble, or we're getting old and it's not reaching our brain anymore anyway.
Loudness is adjusting for psychoacoustic, our brains focus on the frequency range of human voices, as the volume increases it can level it out again. That's probably going to be around for a few more millennias. 😄
Been in the audio game since the 70’s. Ain’t nothing boring about a great modern system. Fewer controls now? Sure but like Paul said, we needed it then. Dollar for dollar, modern speakers outperform older speakers.
A few years ago, I had a very nice Pioneer multi-channel receiver working in stereo. I had upgraded the speakers (to the current ones) but I still wasn't happy with the "direct" sound setting, it required bass/treble correction and/or loudness. Then, I upgraded to a good quality pre and power amp. Even today, I still feel amazed listening to music, even at low sound levels. The pre-amp has only 2 knobs: source selection and volume control and the power amp has only the power button and an LED.
These new amps have straight signal chains and are excellent for straight monoblock setup. You can get any vintage receiver, take preamp output and use it that way upstream of your modern amps.
I agree with most of the opinions in the video but that variable loudness control on Yamaha amps was something to behold. I get what Paul is saying about improvements to the equipment but the loudness control was never about the equipment, it was about the differences in perceived hearing at lower levels. As far as i'm aware, the flaws in the human ear have not been corrected since the 80s and 90s.
Cerwin Vega in the 80's were super nice for the time and the Onkyo receivers were ok and the Technics SA-5760 AM FM Receiver was actually nice for the time. Today with modern Technics, Marantz and even Decware tube amps there's no limit to personalizing your system especially with turntables.
I completely agree with Paul here. I love the cleanliness and simplicity of modern amps and equipment, and I wouldn’t go back unless it’s purely for nostalgia. While the big turbo analogy is a bit of a stretch-since nearly every modern car now has turbochargers, often in various sizes and configurations-it’s easy to understand the nostalgia for days gone by and classic gear. As Paul hinted, muscle cars are undeniably cool! They have so much character, and their look and sound are incredible. But let’s be honest; they don’t accelerate, corner, or stop nearly as well as today’s sports cars. Finally, I don’t find modern amps or sources boring, no more than modern cars are. They’re just different. A contemporary amp with a high-quality built-in DAC, HDMI ARC, remote control, and even a web interface is genuinely impressive! I say this as someone currently setting up rsync cron jobs to back up my music from my Pi NAS-imagine having that capability with vinyl! How great would it be to protect an entire collection so easily? Modern equipment is amazing.
I think much of all the knobs and switches on old equipment was to reduce noise from the recordings and systems. I had many old receivers, amps and components in my time and i remember well having to adjust the equalizer to make up for the loss in fidelity when using Dolby on tape decks.
@@sirsmarty274 At the same time, the entire tone control, balance, loudness and whatnot preamplifier assembly common to vintage equipment is a major source of noise and distortion. Measurements of separated power amplifier sections in such gear routinely show as much as 15dB improvement over the integrated mode, not to mention channel to channel deviation resulting from far from perfect pots.
I remember my father had a Technics like 12 band EQ. I loved the florescent specturm analyzer display. I also remember it doing nothing whatsoever to make things sound better. It could make things sound worse. But never better. I'd love VU meters just for aesthetics, like the McIntosh blue. Nobody uses them for anything practical but they do look cool.
I had a Marantz 2265B receiver back in the day It started me on my Audiophile journey Today I have VAC tube amp and ARC tube pre amp that I bought back in 1996 No loudness no meters no bass, no treble controls I get what I get and love it 😅
When listening to music, especially jazz, I like to be brought back to the times when it was performed live or recorded. I can do that with vintage gear. My eyes and ears work together. I just can’t get there with modern all white minimalistic equipment. It kills my imagination.
I do agree on the speakers. I believe that the speaker technology in modern equipment is 90% of the improvements over vintage. Electronics have not progressed nearly as much, unless you are talking output power. If you put a pair of Aspen 5 with a Pioneer SX 880 and compared it to say a Sprout. The difference would not be that great. But there would be an overwhelming difference in cosmetics. Ugly box’s (most modern electronics) cannot compare to vintage. Fortunately modern speakers do look better along with sounding better. The Aspens are gorgeous! Thank god for Luxman, Yamaha, McIntosh and Accuphase for not removing VU meters and beautiful controls while still providing excellent performance. I have many nice sounding boxes. But they mostly sit on the shelf unused. When I’m listening to music I want to look at beautiful equipment. Preferably with VU meters. The only time my modern Luxman or McIntosh get pulled is for beautiful glowing tubes. I’ve gotten to my journey where I realize fighting for that last few percentage of accuracy was just a journey. That’s when I found there is more to the full experience than critically listening to your equipment wondering if a few switches or a cable is ruining your sound stage. To me that’s not enjoyable, thats obsession. When my system looks better I have a greater urge to listen to it
Agreed. I grew up in that era. Started by building my own systems - speakers and amps. I now play all my material from my PC, phone or legacy iPOD to a single powered EV speaker. Sacrilege to many but generally as good as the systems I had (Leak Sandwich/PSB/Cerwin Vegas speakers powered by Leak/Onkyo and Luxman amps). My JBL soundbar shakes the window panes when I really get going and my Jensen car audio does the rest. The best improvement for me - the reduction in or elimination of mechanical moving parts (except for the speakers of course) in the audio chain. I enjoyed the old but bring on the new.
My dad had an Accuphase setup with OHM Fs then OHM I's had some amazing sound for the late 70s. Tone controls and eqs were a must for cassette playback though. I must admit im still a fan of them. Not all recordings are worth a crap.
If someone is interested in the vintage look and feel, there is a market for that, with products like Yamaha A-S1200 or NAD c3050. But most amps and receivers today don't go that way, because the market for that is apparently small. NAD c3050 is an interesting product because while it looks vintage, it uses class D amp which is much more efficient than class A or AB and it even have HDMI ARC option to connect to modern TVs.
I'm sorry but I have disagreed with this from the first video I saw of Paul's so many years ago. The way I figure, just because you have it don't mean you have to use it. Just because you have tone controls, loudness or filters doesn't mean you have to use them. Just leave it flat if that's what you want but not having the option, sucks. At about age 12 I realized what could be done to a POS system with a simple EQ. Then I learned about pre amping from jacking up the gains on my cassette deck's record mode and looping it back into the receiver. I soon found that they made pre amps and I had to have one. Like Paul said, 90% of the recordings out there suck. Now I in 1980, sitting in my room at moms house with my pile of junk, could make Boston's first album have the same bass and hit as hard as an Iron Maiden album with flip of a couple switches and turning a couple knobs. The bottom line is it's all about control for some of us. We may not have the best system on the market and not listen to the best recordings but we want it to sound good and we want this stuff. The saddest part is with today's tech it could be even better than people remember.
I do use a 'loudness' setting on my modern amp for low volume listening, but it's in the form of a Dirac preset. I don't miss all those knobs and switches on vintage gear. Heck, I don't even have to touch my amp. It turns on automatically when I start Roon playback or turn on the TV. It turns off after 15 minutes of no sound. Modern gear looks sleeker and more elegant. The LCD display with metadata and album art is way more useful than watching needles bouncing around in VU meters.
Sorry Paul, but the fact that you stated a lot of of recordings of today sound worse & worse is even more reason to be able to tweak the sound to your own ear's instead of being locked in. Not to mention old recordings, but to each his own.
I have found that a combo of some vintage and modern mix is a good compromise. I use a vintage Marantz as a pre-amp with modern amp and speakers. Also vintage table and cd player
@@anonimushbosh The result favouring modern, low price class D amp over prized tube gear amongst a large group of seasoned listeners sure came as a surprise to many. The entire episode is worth a watch.
Another aspect of all those controls is that each control had an active stage as well. More components for each adjustment. So often one of the switches was to bypass that state. So you had to go through a switch just so those controls could be seen in front. And if they were not careful the stage might invert, shift the signal by 180 degrees. If you used the stage the signal had to go through the variable resistor which got dirty and made noise. However I find the move to DSP instead to often give worse sonic results. Forced conversion in and out of digital.
I have simple triode & pentode systems, simple (mostly solid-state) systems, & complex vintage (CR-2040, NAD 3080 & etc) systems. given the variability within & among sources (early '60s vinyl / FM / v good CD / streaming) + the challenge of room (& free space) acoustics... all those "compensating" controls not only come in handy... but are a fun trip down memory lane.
I run a Pioneer 1980 through a BSR 12 band(set almost flat) into 2 pairs of JBL 4435's. As my understanding has progressed, and my vintage system become more cohesive, I definitely understand where simple can be better. For no other reason than less problems presented to the signal path. Where would guys like me be without deoxit? I also agree, that no amount of knob turning or switch flicking will cure a poor recording but it can certainly bring them into the realm of listenable. I often time use the bass and treble on my 1980 but always dial back to flat once I move on to another listen. A decompresser, there's a million dollar idea.
Not all great music has been recorded up to audiophile standards and that's why we still need tone controls. And what about loudness filters? - Are psychoacoustic effects gone now, why?
As he was stating the question, you KNEW what his response was going to be. A true Audiophile. But while I agree 100%, I design and build my own speakers and have a 31 band EQ to fine tune for MY hearing. I do not have a flat hearing response, so I adjust the sound output to level it off. There are other issues as well for me as I also do not want flat sound.... so sorry P.S. Audio, I contour my sound in a way that would make you scream. This being said, Love your posts and pray I get the chance to come listen to your Infinity IRS standard series V.
I’m sure changing the attached plug to an IEC outlet will improve it’s sound. This will allow the listener to choose a power cord to vintage components. This can truly challenge your vintage system to perform and sound better.
You hit nail on the head when you said its the recordings and how they are recorded. Some songs come off with extreme heave bass, others don't. Some songs come out clear with nice mids others don't. So with that daid I feel that we should have a simple means and way to be able to adjust on a fly snd tweek what we are listening to rather than having to hit a menu go a few sub menus to get to the eq. I personally listen to streamed music (which a lot of times quality can suck) fortunately my car radio has all the modern features with bkuetooth BUT also has a CD playerband thise CD sound so much better BUT again it all depends on how it was recorded.
I have a threshold FET10 preamplifier without tone controls, and it still has tons of dials. I miss the look and feel of lots of dials on modern preamplifiers
Maybe it’s old habits but I like to have a little tonal control. Also, although I am aware they are necessary in most cases, I am not a big fan of a digital control panels or touchscreens.
I listened to The Eagles first live album last night, and then I listened to their album at The Forum after that. Recording technology has come so far.👍
You know long time ago I used to enjoy very much my Sanyo system but I had to push the loudness button and turn the treble knob all the way up an a bit of the bass in order to enjoy my music. Today , on my modern amp , I just don’t need it and it sounds even much better even when my hearing got older along with me😊
If you want a vintage receiver buy a vintage receiver. The monster Pioneer SX-1980 (270W/Ch) receiver is available for about $12,000USD. Or the more modest Pioneer, SX-8500 II Integrated Amplifier & TX-9100 Tuner for around $1,200USD. Or if you want a modern vintage piece pick-up an Accuphase or Luxman.
Paul is absolutely right. I owned a few top tier vintage receivers. Sansui G9000, Pioneer SX1980, Sansui G7500 and Technics SA1000. All of which when compaired to todays separates gear are mediocre. They are built to compensate for garbage kabuki speakers. Use these receivers to power a modern speaker and they sound horrible, bloated nd overly warm. A great hifi system today, when set up right and the synergy is correct will musically outperform any receiver with tone, loudness or balance controls.. 110%. These people just never heard a great modern system... the same people who think power and speaker cables dont make a difference... because their systems are lacking/mediocre
And yet, many audiophiles are coming around to using Dirac or other room correction software, i.e. good old EQ controls, just done in software now instead of analog knobs. LOL. Also, we still love and play albums from the 1970s that are "thin" sounding because they were mastered that way. We like to "juice them up" a bit if we can. The "issue" with modern gear, including that from PS Audio, is that it has all the sexiness of a computer router you'd see in an IT center. Yes, it might be doing a great job, but it is visually boring.
Premium gear of the 70s makes a lot of fun and excitement .... if you combine it with well balanced speakers, from the new days. I agree, thats a problem for some manufactors. When their pres and amps sound like medical gear from the hospital
I was into hi-fi in the late 70s. Those were definitely NOT the good old days. My Phase Linear pre amp and amp were adequate for the affordable speakers of the day, but speakers in general were bad.
As someone who sold hi-fi in the 1970s, yes Paul is correct, most speakers were terrible, there were a few exceptions. ADS , IMF , MAGNAPAN , Allison. And a few models from infinity. I am sure there are more, but that’s all I can think of now.
Hi. Just a short thought. All tunes i‘m listening to are different in quality. I have old vinyl as well. I really need my tone control to adjust old music to my needs. That is why I allways have amps with tone controls. Cheers from Germany.
I think some people just like the nostalgia and fidgeting. Others like pressing a button and doing nothing. Sounds like the person might love Wilson Audio or similar with a ton of configurations and tinkering for the speaker. I used to love Alpine with the cool green lights in the car. Takes me back.
Of course, and we all know, one can mess with any number of EQ'ing components as an add on and probably end up with better results than the receiver being discussed - - - perhaps another reason that higher end products don't go down the rabbit hole of sound shaping (sans DSP) is an effort to clean up the signal path - there's still a fairly strong contingent of listeners that believe less, in the utilization of circuitry and switches, usually translates into better - sound wise.
Agreed. We lusted after these big receivers because they looked cool. The fact is, I never touched any of those knobs. Once you played with them a couple of times, you just turned the volume up or down. And the sound was crap.
Modern systems are boring because they are meant for listening to the gear, not the music, if you aren't listening to music why do you need tone controls and dodads? And all that tone control clutter made audiophiles nervous, like it added distortion that supposedly was audible and other nonsense marketing has made people believe over the years. It also saved money, why go to the effort to add features and controls when you can convince people to pay more for less options.
You are very right on studios making crap recordings. Just listen to albums all over. What tics me off , is you get 2, maybe 3, great sound and depth. Then they are recording at another studio to spread the wealth, and you want to hit that plater with a hammer. I cant spend the money on sacd recordings, and equipment to start all over. I would rather record on tape , the good stuff and really enjoy the good from the bad. Thank you Paul.
At low level listening and poor recordings I still use tone controls with my ATC speakers. Thanks for McIntosh, Luxman, Accuphase, to still provide them.
In my living room I have all the modern (and good) equipment you can wish for. In my study I have vintage paradise including tone controls, useless VU meters etc. Guess where I listen to my music (a lot of vinyl) the most. Music is emotion.
It would be a short talk...there really aren't any. You could bring up, e.g., Quads, but those have such limitations in dynamics and extension that make them incompatible with modern hi quality digital recordings. Legacy Klipsch speakers, including the K-horn also suck by any objective modern standard.
Separates (amp & preamp) DO have controls. Receivers (as I notice a lot of people referring to) isn't in the same category. For example, if you walked into a hifi store today (or in the 70's), looking to audition (and possibly purchase) a nice new pair of speakers. The salesman would never demo those speakers through a receiver, would he? Of course not. They would play them, running through separates, so they would sound better. Now, if you were looking at some really inexpensive speakers, the salesman may play them through a receiver and turn up the bass or treble, so they would "seem" better.
Paul you reminded me of a CD that I looked forward to and when I got home it sounded like someone was eating a bag of chips in the background. I mean really enjoying them.
With ideal equipment and setup situation, sure there's no need for additional adjustment. Most of the time that's not the case, but then problem 2 is will extra adjustments actually make it sound better. Can they even do the thing expected, do they have side effects, and the skill of the user especially. I've seen enough cases where EQs were used to make it sound worse. Maybe 90% of users tend to use them to raise the volume as well. While my experience with newer room correction and DSP is minimal, I expect the lesson of older kinds of correction, from spectrum analysis down to loudness buttons and well-tuned radio tone controls will apply: some kind of adjustment is desirable to control the tradeoff of how much it actually sounds good vs. just letting the speakers do their thing. Unless that's built in of course.
Back in the day, a friend was planning to upgrade his integrated amp. I asked him what he was looking for and he said something black with a lot of knobs and switches.
Now I don't just have to leave a like here, but simply say thank you: The decompression chamber has put more than just a smile on my face, no, this wonderfully honest statement has made my day incredibly beautiful today. So thank you very much and I'm already looking forward to the next day-brightener!
I loved the design of SONY and Marantz equipment from the 70's. Still have (and use) my old SONY TA2000f pre-amp. (I re-designed and re-built the line amps a few years ago...) Today the knobs and switches feel "cheap"... much like recordings they are being fed.
I am 61 and always owned decent HiFi Systems. I have to admit that the systems nowadays are so much better in sound. Absolutely incomparable. That does not mean that the old system hadn’t a sex appeal that modern systems sometimes lack
@harrykressl1251: Agreed. For example, even the turntables and cartridges are far better than the old ones.
sex appeal: "all those knobs and bells and whistles!" I am thinking about the beaded doorway to the master bedroom with a king-sized waterbed. Sex appeal was a bit over the top back in the olden days!
@@hocktooey sorry, I am german so maybe I‘ve used the wrong words but I think you get it what I meant
@@harrykressl1251 I was just having fun with Paul's description of "knobs" and your association with "sex appeal." Just poking fun at the oldsters (I'm newly 60!).
@@harrykressl1251 agree. Modern gear can be better than old high end stuff. And definitely modern gear is better than low end overpriced receivers
I think manufacturers like Hi-Fi Rose are bringing back some very cool and interesting amp designs that still look modern. There are many other companies that believe in tone controls, knobs and buttons - McIntosh, Yamaha, Luxman to name just a few. As a longtime audiophile that has owned dozens of different brands of amplifiers, I prefer those with knobs and tone controls. Paul will try to tell us that we don’t need those, as they have it all dialled in for us - BS. Tone controls are super helpful in correcting all sorts of issues, be it with your room, speaker placement, poor recordings, etc.
I don't find tone controls "super" useful. They are useful; something like DSP is "super" useful as you can create the tone control and much more :)
I never miss my tone controls for good recordings, there's nothing I'd want to change. The rig is setup so it fits the room and adapted to my taste so it has the right amount of highs, mids and lows. There's nothing tone controls could improve unless a recording is overly bright or has zero low end.
That's why I still have my 26-year-old Onkyo receiver. I want loudness and bass/treble settings and it can still reproduce them. In my experience with newer devices, even if I adjust the equalizer on the source, it is still “flattened” again.
And of course I have a profile with extra bass on my AV receiver.
I partially agree: No stereo/mono switches on an amp? Sometimes that's necessary, if you're playing mono vinyl with stereo cartridges, and you want to cancel out the record noise. Or, if you want to cancel out stereo noise in FM broadcasts. Some of those bells and whistles are still necessary today.
Now for the real reason, cost. It's cheaper to manufacture without VU meters and additional knobs and features which in turn means higher profits. And a flimsy plastic case is way cheaper than a metal case or even a wooden case. And on average i think speaker quality went down since the majority of the population buys the cheapest speakers on amazon that sound like garbage and would greatly benefit from tone controls.
@@Jaml321 I take issue with one thing you say. People may buy cheap crap speakers but speaker quality has dramatically improved over the decades
@@NateEll I said on average. Yes speaker technology improved greatly but it did on both ends. High end speakers got better but at the same time low end speakers got cheaper and worse and guess what most of the people buy so i don't believe for a second that the average household has better sound quality than in the 70's. People today listen to music on amazons echos alexa which is mono and horrible quality for an example.
In my opinion, the 70's stereo war Receivers were the best looking audio equipment ever made.
Truth!
@@mr.george7687 I tend to agree. I really love some of those beasts. Sound quality was high variable, but most of them looked the part for sure.
@@mr.george7687 completely not true.
Looking but not the sound
@@Watcher4111 umm, it his opinion.
I will take my restored vintage receivers (Marantz 2245, Sansui 9090, Sansui G8000 and Pioneer SX980) any day over the modern minimalist stuff made today. AESTHETICS matter. That is why McIntosh today still catches your eye every time. I am sure the PS Audio and Hegel units sound great. But my vintage gear sounds great and LOOKS great too. Beauty matters......
Not to everyone.
ps audio and hegel are rubbish amp,they using same topology like 50 years old amp but with very cheap parts I can say crap parts like the noisy toroidals in hegel and ps audio
@@I-tg4dr 🙄😄
@@mrpositronia true bro
@@I-tg4dr Not to everyone.
I'm from that era as well, and I still insist on having tone controls on my gear. You can still find gear that has them, and some, like Vincent and Yamaha still offer loudness circuits as well.
Absolutely! And a balance control
"The recording industry is getting worse and worse" = The best/most true you've said for a long time.
@WildernessMusic_GentleSerene As mentioned in the video, compression is an issue. It gets in the way of macro-dynamics (see "loudness wars"). Ultimately, it is a trade-off, for it to sound better on mobile devices, radios, and low-end car stereos. But it is done at the expense of a high-end listening experience on equipment that has a higher dynamic range. The solution would be releasing an uncompressed version in addition to the mainstream one.
@@danielalvarezarribas4660 I could not agree more. the only problem with you or I saying it, is that it will only be understood and believed by people who have actually experienced a high end listening system. (saying that even sounds snobbish but its not about the money its about the quality. I spent my whole live judging systems not knowing what there really was available and cost kept me from knowing) I will add, even the multitudes of people that have listened to my system like any other and said yeah, its nice and clear, but so what. While some will sit with their jaw dropped. When you can hear it, you can hear it.
It sucks because The Recording Industry is producing Music with Headsets, various Portable Players, (maybe Soundbars), and Streaming in mind these days. Not Home Audio. I've run into quite a few Audio Engineers here in New York City who have told Me this often over the years. And I used to do Radio Production. To ears like ours, it's become more evident.
@@LLNYRN Yes, I believe you.
@@danielalvarezarribas4660 Yes, give you 2 discs like we get when we buy a 4k-movie, we also get a Blu-ray disc.
In 1998 I ended up with a new Kenwood reciever, it did not have any knobs, other than the volume control.
Everything, bass, treble, mid was adjusted by the remote.
It was a home theater reciever, so it had dozens of listening modes, and different sounds to match your taste.
After a year, the lack of knobs for bass & treble began to drive me absolutely bonkers!!!
Every time I popped a different CD in, I'd usually have to tweak the bass, or mid a touch.
Other times, if it was turned up too loud, the reciever would shut off, then I'd have to reset everything back to where I had it before.
I ended up acquiring a Yamaha Natural sound receiver from the same era, and instantly fell in love.
Bass, treble, loudnes, volume knobs, all where I can see them, and
can quickly be adjusted, without fumbling around with a remote.
I gave that annoying Kenwood reciever away, I have four different Yamaha Natural sound recievers currently.
The loudness knob on the Yamaha differs from the loudness buttons on the 70's recievers, it is more or less a gain/mid/treble combination.
You have the ability to tailor the sound of any recording, from any era, to how your ear likes it to sound.
The simple truth of the matter is...present day manufacturers cannot afford to make components with all of that extra stuff! Those were the days when the Japanese ruled the space. The receiver wars, all of the HPM speakers, Nakamichi gear, Phase Linear, SAE, GAS, Carver, and the list goes on. Anyone can say anything they like about"the golden age of HiFi" but if they are honest, there was an awful lot of good gear being produced back then. And the more exclusive brands like Dynaco, Macintosh, Audio Research etc... were available and fantasic. Remember the days of A couple of Phase linear amps and preamps, a set of Klipschorns in the corners, Teac and Technics reel to reels, Marantz 6300s, Kenwood",the rock" turntables, Stanton cartridges, i could go on all day. Nobody will ever convince me that the gear in those days wasnt fantastic if you knew how to set things up. All of this new"cutting edge" gear is great, dont get me wrong, but back in the day the Stereo HiFi experience was so much more hands on. It was gratifying to constantly tweak your system till you got it how you wanted it. Rant over. Peace.
You are so right! Add to all of the above - A great number of Audiophiles of days past were very good with electronics repair and upgrades. Today's kids have no experience with the wonder and excitement of reading through the back pages of magazines looking for the kit to build and experiment with. Today everything is plug-N-play instant gratification.
Luckily for me I am, in my late fifties, learning more and more about electronic repairs and do a bit of buying another man's trash, fixing it and enjoying it.
All the best - Kevin
It looks great but sonically it just doesn’t hold up to refined modern equipment sorry to say. I grew up in that age of golden hi fi. I owned many spectacular pieces and enjoyed them immensely for their time. Technology continues to evolve otherwise it would be a boring hobby.
@@ralex3697 the greatest sonic improvement has been in the speakers. putting together a "classic" high quality system, matched to new speakers (of one's taste & space) yields damn good sound.
@@grumpy9478 so true, but in my case, I'm using a pair of 35 year old Magnapan and they still sound spectacular!!
I have to disagree a bit with Paul on this one.
All studios sounded different since the beginning of recorded music, and they still do today, which accounts for one of the reasons why we can easily have 2 great recorded and mixed/mastered albums, and one might seem to be lacking in bass (for example), while other does not.
There's not such thing as "making it sound like if you were in the studio", because that studio sound is (and it always was) a moving target.
That's where some level of tone controls are definitely a good thing, even if we do want to start with the most balanced system, and only make adjustments in recordings that really need it.
Fortunately, some streamers are coming with the ability of using PEQ, or bypass it, although they don't solve the problem of those who listen mostly to analogue sources, and want to keep the whole analogue chain.
There's no audio system in the world (no matter how much it costs) that's going to sound good with every successful recording made since 1970 (for instance).
IMHO, whenever a sound system prevents me from listening to music that I love due to the lack of any adjustment, I don't feel like it is doing its job as it should.
I do most of my listening without any sort of tone controls, but I sure want them to be available when I need them.
There's no sense in allowing the HiFi system to decide what music is listenable or unlistenable, if another system is able to sound good with the same recording.
I'm still amazed by how many HiFi / audiophile manufacturers didn't get this point by now.
Adjusting tone control for records sounds good but impractical especially when you are listening to a playlist. Would anybody like to jump from the couch and adjust the knobs for every song? Unlikely. Even if there's a device that can remember your tuning for each song or album, you still need to adjust them one by one to let them remember the settings. Who will do that kind of thing... So it makes sense the tone control is designed for general taste tweaking or compensate the speaker.
I totally agree with you here.
@@citytianyuI can reach my tone controls from my listening position. I love it.
I´m shocked that many audiophiles actually choose music based on how it sounds on their system. I listen to music that I like, and if it sounds bad, I need to switch system, not music. I also have tone controls on my amp. The remixed and rerecorded version of Pink Floyd´s "Momentary Lapse of Reason" had so much bass in my room it drowned everything else in the recording, but for me it was easy to fix it by turning the knob on the amp.
I hv spent lots of years to search final perfect sound which feel me it's the best reproduction of recording as listening at home . Which make smile on my face with thinking it's best I have and rest seeking day night for.
Nothing further improvements required after getting this.
This goal came true...Yes... I am enjoying each song I threw 🎉on my system. I am dam sure , that I am getting my favourite sound at home with minor tweaks and vintage Hi Fi setup and most importantly the secret speaker placement ❤
My 50 year old ESS AMT-3 speakers and 50 year old Sansui sound awesome, however the 700-watt per channel modern power amplifier helps add headroom.
The ESS AMT Fiber Tweeter or Heil Is Still a Under The Radar Speaker 🔈
Those Speakers High End Cuts Through Everything
If You Just Add a Self Powered Sub
That Speaker Set Up Is The Bomb 💣
Damn For Once Someone Is Speaking My Language
With respect to Paul, the proper answer is… you can still buy those, both brand new from a bunch of mostly big name manufacturers & vintage refurbished with new components.
My older brother bought a Pioneer SX-636 (??) and two way KLH speakers. I fell in love with HIFI at 14 and chased megawatt amps and speakers until I heard Klipsch Heresys. Now it is 1976 Cornwalls and a really low watt tube amp. Thank you Hollis for my sickness!!
There are two reasons tone controls are still needed IMO. Every room is different and every person’s hearing is different. A system like Dirac addresses both these issues. Of course you can also try switching components and adding tweaks until it all satisfies you. In the auto repair world we would call this more expensive route “loading the parts cannon”. It’s not surprising that people who sell equipment prefer this latter route.
1980 I upgraded to a Meridian 101 and Meridian M1 active speakers. The pre-amp selected between turntable, tuner and tape. No treble, no bass control, no loudness, no filters. Back then I was used to three tape inputs, aux, phono, tuner, then CD, 4 VCR, DVD and ever needing more switching so used a QED passive switch box. Now I think the 101b has too many control, using it for moving coil from my 1990 Linn Sondek LP12 serviced, partly upgraded in 2022. I have yet to hear a better system. As good, sure. Could live with them too, sure but really within one bar of music outright better I don't think so. Now if my 71 year old ears could pick up the frequencies I enjoyed 44 years ago maybe; but I am stuck with what I am left with. As long as when play a track or watching a movie and I can still say damn they sound good I am happy.
I do miss the Loudness control nowadays to listen to music at low levels though.
Except that back in the '70s we used the loudness button all the time. 😅 It made the speakers more flat cos the,speakers either didn't have inductors on the woofers or the inductors were too small. And the boxes were too thin.
@@Justwantahover That's not it. The Loudness control was meant to compensate for they way our ears' frequency response changes at low level - especially the way we can't hear bass (and to a lesser extent treble) when the volume is low. Look up "Fletcher Munson curves". My old Alba amp had a variable Loudness control, which I thought was a great idea.
That means something else is wrong. My rig sounds great at low levels and at high(er) levels. If you start losing a lot of definition, something's not quite going right. It is important to audit audio at low levels though, loud is easy.
No, human ears have lower sensitivity to bass and treble at lower volumes.
Doesn't matter how good your hifi is, you still should have EQ for low listening volumes
@@timreeves I wouldn’t want to change anything at low levels. So something is going right :)
I'm sorry Paul I hear ya! I'm 69 and have the 70's system of my dreams and it makes me so happy. Pioneer sx-950 Technics turntable and some good ole fashioned JBL's and a pair of Pioneer HPM-900's. All controls are flat and I have a decent set of cartridges and the sound is amazing. And the digital hi-res files I play back from ripping those records are outstanding to my ears. Yes If I visited your special listening room 1 I would be blown away. But I do not have 10's of thousands of dollars for it. Peace and Love! Christopher 🙂
While switches don't make audio interesting the charge of boring has a certain sense. The resurgence of LPs is one way that there is a reaction against boring digital sound. Another is the resurgence of tube amplifiers and also of high sensitivity speakers. I'm biased obviously.
Humans crave multi sensory experiences. That’s maybe a reason why modern equipment is often described as boring. Press the play button on your phone and you are done.
Same reason why books die hard despite all the advantages of ebooks.
@@volpedo2000well real books I can fall asleep too versus reading on a tablet whose blue light keeps me up till 2am lol
Lol, craks and popps and loudnesswar is your name😂
@@volpedo2000 Exactly! Paper has personality and books have a soul.
@@mikeg2491eReaders don't need blue light
Costs - nothing but costs. Today's HiFi manufacturers don't implement controls because of the cost!
Unfortunately, this leads to many recordings of good music, but of poorer recording quality, becoming more or less unplayable.
That newer equipment is ugly compared to older ones, is another matter.
Costs? Most mainstream hifi receivers have vast array of controls and most are relatively inexpensive. High end audio is another matter.
@@CoolJay77 Yes, costs. Good tone controls don't come for free.
@@asterixx6878 PS Audio preamps seem to range $3K to $7K. If the market demands more controls, they can spend $25 or $50 in Chinese parts, and charge the customer several hundred dollars additional.
Or the consumer may opt for Yamaha, Pioneer or Onkyo receivers for fraction of the cost with all the bells and whistles. The problems with many of my acquaintances, they overuse the tone controls and sound effects.
They'd do the same if they acquire high end systems with tone controls. It would drive the high end audio concept to the gutter.
@@asterixx6878 Had the audiophile consumer demanded tone controls, they would have been on audiophile preamps. The cost could be under $20 in Chinese parts, for which they could charge couple hundred extra. High end preamplifiers could cost $3K, $7K or more. My acquaintances overuse the tone controls and sound effects on their hifi receivers. They would do the same with a high end gear, and defeat the purpose of high end audio. It seems like audiophiles veer on the side of "relative" purity.
I'm afraid I'm old school with a receiver I bought in 1973 playing CD's through a bluray player and a DAC. My turntable and vinyl went to my son who used them to digitize the albums through software for replay on his bluetooth system. Over the years I hooked speakers to the system both purchased and of my own design. As my hearing degraded with age and abuse, I have used my "old fashioned" tone and loudness controls to compensate somewhat and mainly use headphones. I agree with Paul regarding the quality or lack of it in more recently recorded music. When limitations on the user's ability to play or possibly even want high fidelity based on their method of storage and playback the industry was happy to oblige. When I look at what I spent on a component system back in 1980 and adjust for inflation to today, I'm not in PS Audio range, but it still would buy a decent system.
I don´t use high end modern Hifi systems, because the resolution is so good, most recordings sound worse, than on older equipment. It somehow seems to highlight the noise instead of the music. When the qualitiy of the recording matches the system, the listening experience is phenomenal, but this is rarely the case. Young people listen to the music mostly on their phones, so recording engineers will serve this audience in the future, which means bad news for high end Hifi but good news for Charlie Parker records from the 50s, because they sound "natural" to Gen Z. Interesting times we live in 🙂
Yes, sound is important, yet I think a lot of consumers still listen with their eyes and the visual appeal of products are also a major part of a purchasing decision. I too wish companies would take some of the design cues from items that were made during the hey-day of audio. I still find that stuff to be cool and also tire of the featureless modern black boxes that most manufactures currently produce. In the space of retro-audio I think Yamaha does a good job of creating components that emulate the look and functions of systems that were available in the 70's and 80's. Sadly, most of today's stuff has lost a lot of the functionality and sexy curb side appeal of the gear I grew up with.
This, also when i see those modern equipment with nothing but a power switch and a volume knob (and maybe a stupid remote) i feel ripped off. I feel as if modern day manufacturers are laughing their socks of selling us so much less for 10x the money back then.
The letter writer is 100% correct. They charge top dollar for bargain bin gear with no features but a power button. And some pre-amps are just a volume knob, input selector and power button. I bet it just kills the manufacturers of modern gear to even put a LED above the power button. That is costing them another 10 cents of profit on their $20,000 amp!
My first stereo had all the bells and whistles, equalizers and flashing lights. One day I saw an ad for Linn Hi-FI. It showed an integrated amp with nothing but an on/off switch, selector and volume knob; a turntable and simple two-way speakers. I fell in love with its simplicity and eventually upgraded to much simpler gear. I do have tone controls, but rarely use them except maybe to turn down boomy bass.
Yeah you could explain it away by saying - "older systems and speakers were inadequate back then - but now they are much better and so we don't need the controls and switches and beautiful metal knobs and sexy meters and brushed aluminum faces etc."
Or you could throw some honesty in there and just admit that stereo equipment manufacturers today are making boatloads more profit by not designing and building their equipment with all the bells and whistles of yesterday.
Or chage $8K to get meters on an amp
It’s all done electronically see WIIM
@@CashGravel Doing stuff electronically and with software is nowhere near as good as actually having the physical VU meters and Knobs etc. It's kind of like the way Tesla cars have that big screen in the middle - with no gauges or physical controls anywhere in the car. What a lunchbag letdown.
@@jC-kc4si That's an outrage!
@@erdemkaya6472 can’t tell if you’re being satirical or not. I’ve had plenty of vintage gear in my day and while it is cool looking, I’m perfectly fine letting superior electronic crossovers do the work these days I run my Maggie through a subwoofer with a high Pass filter and built a new crossover so to be honest none of this applies to me . YMMV.
I ask Paul Klipsch when I took Cornwalls home from the store to try why there was a 15: woofer but no bass, He told me that is what the bass knob is for.
Back in my Pioneer days, I always needed 'Loudness', or it sounded boring.
But loudness is there to correct your hearing at low volumes, not the system. If you don't need it today either the loudness is added defacto or your speakers boost bass and treble, or we're getting old and it's not reaching our brain anymore anyway.
@@cuoresportivo155 Or it's like Paul said, systems were inadequate in those days.
Loudness is adjusting for psychoacoustic, our brains focus on the frequency range of human voices, as the volume increases it can level it out again. That's probably going to be around for a few more millennias. 😄
So u throw out the dynamics huh
Been in the audio game since the 70’s. Ain’t nothing boring about a great modern system. Fewer controls now? Sure but like Paul said, we needed it then. Dollar for dollar, modern speakers outperform older speakers.
I recently got the NAD c3050 to power my LS50s meta. It has that vintage look that reminds me of my parents and it sounds amazing.
A few years ago, I had a very nice Pioneer multi-channel receiver working in stereo. I had upgraded the speakers (to the current ones) but I still wasn't happy with the "direct" sound setting, it required bass/treble correction and/or loudness.
Then, I upgraded to a good quality pre and power amp. Even today, I still feel amazed listening to music, even at low sound levels. The pre-amp has only 2 knobs: source selection and volume control and the power amp has only the power button and an LED.
Loudness control is the bomb
Ugh.. No🙄
Even though I am into “modern”… the old stuff provided EVERYTHING that mattered.
Idk if it did. Where can I create a specific high Q notch for room modes and quickly change filter for a different set of speakers?
These new amps have straight signal chains and are excellent for straight monoblock setup.
You can get any vintage receiver, take preamp output and use it that way upstream of your modern amps.
I agree with most of the opinions in the video but that variable loudness control on Yamaha amps was something to behold. I get what Paul is saying about improvements to the equipment but the loudness control was never about the equipment, it was about the differences in perceived hearing at lower levels. As far as i'm aware, the flaws in the human ear have not been corrected since the 80s and 90s.
Cerwin Vega in the 80's were super nice for the time and the Onkyo receivers were ok and the Technics SA-5760 AM FM Receiver was actually nice for the time. Today with modern Technics, Marantz and even Decware tube amps there's no limit to personalizing your system especially with turntables.
I completely agree with Paul here. I love the cleanliness and simplicity of modern amps and equipment, and I wouldn’t go back unless it’s purely for nostalgia. While the big turbo analogy is a bit of a stretch-since nearly every modern car now has turbochargers, often in various sizes and configurations-it’s easy to understand the nostalgia for days gone by and classic gear. As Paul hinted, muscle cars are undeniably cool! They have so much character, and their look and sound are incredible. But let’s be honest; they don’t accelerate, corner, or stop nearly as well as today’s sports cars.
Finally, I don’t find modern amps or sources boring, no more than modern cars are. They’re just different. A contemporary amp with a high-quality built-in DAC, HDMI ARC, remote control, and even a web interface is genuinely impressive! I say this as someone currently setting up rsync cron jobs to back up my music from my Pi NAS-imagine having that capability with vinyl! How great would it be to protect an entire collection so easily? Modern equipment is amazing.
I think much of all the knobs and switches on old equipment was to reduce noise from the recordings and systems. I had many old receivers, amps and components in my time and i remember well having to adjust the equalizer to make up for the loss in fidelity when using Dolby on tape decks.
@@sirsmarty274 At the same time, the entire tone control, balance, loudness and whatnot preamplifier assembly common to vintage equipment is a major source of noise and distortion. Measurements of separated power amplifier sections in such gear routinely show as much as 15dB improvement over the integrated mode, not to mention channel to channel deviation resulting from far from perfect pots.
I remember my father had a Technics like 12 band EQ. I loved the florescent specturm analyzer display. I also remember it doing nothing whatsoever to make things sound better. It could make things sound worse. But never better. I'd love VU meters just for aesthetics, like the McIntosh blue. Nobody uses them for anything practical but they do look cool.
Spectrum analyzers and led waterfalls were pretty cool back then. Visually satisfying.
I had a Marantz 2265B receiver back in the day It started me on my Audiophile journey Today I have VAC tube amp and ARC tube pre amp that I bought back in 1996 No loudness no meters no bass, no treble controls I get what I get and love it 😅
When listening to music, especially jazz, I like to be brought back to the times when it was performed live or recorded. I can do that with vintage gear. My eyes and ears work together. I just can’t get there with modern all white minimalistic equipment. It kills my imagination.
What about Quad ESL57 or ESL63 with Quad 34 and Quad 306/405. Amazing sound with great tone control on 34 pre amp.
I do agree on the speakers. I believe that the speaker technology in modern equipment is 90% of the improvements over vintage. Electronics have not progressed nearly as much, unless you are talking output power. If you put a pair of Aspen 5 with a Pioneer SX 880 and compared it to say a Sprout. The difference would not be that great. But there would be an overwhelming difference in cosmetics.
Ugly box’s (most modern electronics) cannot compare to vintage. Fortunately modern speakers do look better along with sounding better. The Aspens are gorgeous! Thank god for Luxman, Yamaha, McIntosh and Accuphase for not removing VU meters and beautiful controls while still providing excellent performance. I have many nice sounding boxes. But they mostly sit on the shelf unused. When I’m listening to music I want to look at beautiful equipment. Preferably with VU meters. The only time my modern Luxman or McIntosh get pulled is for beautiful glowing tubes. I’ve gotten to my journey where I realize fighting for that last few percentage of accuracy was just a journey. That’s when I found there is more to the full experience than critically listening to your equipment wondering if a few switches or a cable is ruining your sound stage. To me that’s not enjoyable, thats obsession. When my system looks better I have a greater urge to listen to it
Agreed. I grew up in that era. Started by building my own systems - speakers and amps. I now play all my material from my PC, phone or legacy iPOD to a single powered EV speaker. Sacrilege to many but generally as good as the systems I had (Leak Sandwich/PSB/Cerwin Vegas speakers powered by Leak/Onkyo and Luxman amps). My JBL soundbar shakes the window panes when I really get going and my Jensen car audio does the rest. The best improvement for me - the reduction in or elimination of mechanical moving parts (except for the speakers of course) in the audio chain. I enjoyed the old but bring on the new.
My dad had an Accuphase setup with OHM Fs then OHM I's had some amazing sound for the late 70s. Tone controls and eqs were a must for cassette playback though. I must admit im still a fan of them. Not all recordings are worth a crap.
If someone is interested in the vintage look and feel, there is a market for that, with products like Yamaha A-S1200 or NAD c3050. But most amps and receivers today don't go that way, because the market for that is apparently small. NAD c3050 is an interesting product because while it looks vintage, it uses class D amp which is much more efficient than class A or AB and it even have HDMI ARC option to connect to modern TVs.
You have proven the point beautifully… I think we all miss the fun of training to control sound and believe we were good at it.
What about bass control when connected to small stand mounts playing at low volume?
I'm sorry but I have disagreed with this from the first video I saw of Paul's so many years ago. The way I figure, just because you have it don't mean you have to use it. Just because you have tone controls, loudness or filters doesn't mean you have to use them. Just leave it flat if that's what you want but not having the option, sucks. At about age 12 I realized what could be done to a POS system with a simple EQ. Then I learned about pre amping from jacking up the gains on my cassette deck's record mode and looping it back into the receiver. I soon found that they made pre amps and I had to have one. Like Paul said, 90% of the recordings out there suck. Now I in 1980, sitting in my room at moms house with my pile of junk, could make Boston's first album have the same bass and hit as hard as an Iron Maiden album with flip of a couple switches and turning a couple knobs. The bottom line is it's all about control for some of us. We may not have the best system on the market and not listen to the best recordings but we want it to sound good and we want this stuff. The saddest part is with today's tech it could be even better than people remember.
I do use a 'loudness' setting on my modern amp for low volume listening, but it's in the form of a Dirac preset. I don't miss all those knobs and switches on vintage gear. Heck, I don't even have to touch my amp. It turns on automatically when I start Roon playback or turn on the TV. It turns off after 15 minutes of no sound. Modern gear looks sleeker and more elegant. The LCD display with metadata and album art is way more useful than watching needles bouncing around in VU meters.
Sorry Paul, but the fact that you stated a lot of of recordings of today sound worse & worse is even more reason to be able to tweak the sound to your own ear's instead of being locked in. Not to mention old recordings, but to each his own.
I have found that a combo of some vintage and modern mix is a good compromise. I use a vintage Marantz as a pre-amp with modern amp and speakers. Also vintage table and cd player
Wonder if in a blind listening test you could distinguish the modern gear from high quality older gear?
yes my ears can
@@markwilson5262How often, in say forever, have you done a proper blind test between high end old stuff in perfect condition & new gear?
Vintage Audio Review: Aiyima T9 vs Marantz 8B
@@paulb4661 I think they both need to be pretty high end to count. Or similar current price.
@@anonimushbosh The result favouring modern, low price class D amp over prized tube gear amongst a large group of seasoned listeners sure came as a surprise to many. The entire episode is worth a watch.
A loudness button would still be relevant. It's for boosting bass and treble at low volumes, when are hearing cuts bass and treble.
Another aspect of all those controls is that each control had an active stage as well. More components for each adjustment. So often one of the switches was to bypass that state. So you had to go through a switch just so those controls could be seen in front. And if they were not careful the stage might invert, shift the signal by 180 degrees. If you used the stage the signal had to go through the variable resistor which got dirty and made noise.
However I find the move to DSP instead to often give worse sonic results. Forced conversion in and out of digital.
I have simple triode & pentode systems, simple (mostly solid-state) systems, & complex vintage (CR-2040, NAD 3080 & etc) systems. given the variability within & among sources (early '60s vinyl / FM / v good CD / streaming) + the challenge of room (& free space) acoustics... all those "compensating" controls not only come in handy... but are a fun trip down memory lane.
I run a Pioneer 1980 through a BSR 12 band(set almost flat) into 2 pairs of JBL 4435's. As my understanding has progressed, and my vintage system become more cohesive, I definitely understand where simple can be better. For no other reason than less problems presented to the signal path. Where would guys like me be without deoxit? I also agree, that no amount of knob turning or switch flicking will cure a poor recording but it can certainly bring them into the realm of listenable. I often time use the bass and treble on my 1980 but always dial back to flat once I move on to another listen. A decompresser, there's a million dollar idea.
Not all great music has been recorded up to audiophile standards and that's why we still need tone controls. And what about loudness filters? - Are psychoacoustic effects gone now, why?
As he was stating the question, you KNEW what his response was going to be. A true Audiophile. But while I agree 100%, I design and build my own speakers and have a 31 band EQ to fine tune for MY hearing. I do not have a flat hearing response, so I adjust the sound output to level it off. There are other issues as well for me as I also do not want flat sound.... so sorry P.S. Audio, I contour my sound in a way that would make you scream. This being said, Love your posts and pray I get the chance to come listen to your Infinity IRS standard series V.
I’m sure changing the attached plug to an IEC outlet will improve it’s sound.
This will allow the listener to choose a power cord to vintage components.
This can truly challenge your vintage system to perform and sound better.
You hit nail on the head when you said its the recordings and how they are recorded.
Some songs come off with extreme heave bass, others don't. Some songs come out clear with nice mids others don't. So with that daid I feel that we should have a simple means and way to be able to adjust on a fly snd tweek what we are listening to rather than having to hit a menu go a few sub menus to get to the eq. I personally listen to streamed music (which a lot of times quality can suck) fortunately my car radio has all the modern features with bkuetooth BUT also has a CD playerband thise CD sound so much better BUT again it all depends on how it was recorded.
The speakers back in the '70s for the consumer stereo systems failed right from the thin sided boxes. 😅
And today we can make HUGE improvements in sound with the finest cable lifters and fuses. LOL.
The Loudness and Mono buttons are sorely missed.
I am right behind you in age Paul and completely with you in thinking!
Great video and I couldn’t agree more. Only the VU meters, though.. they are a beautiful addition on an amplifier (although it’s a visual experience).
I have a threshold FET10 preamplifier without tone controls, and it still has tons of dials. I miss the look and feel of lots of dials on modern preamplifiers
The old systems sound MUCH better. As long as recapped and serviced.
Maybe it’s old habits but I like to have a little tonal control. Also, although I am aware they are necessary in most cases, I am not a big fan of a digital control panels or touchscreens.
I listened to The Eagles first live album last night, and then I listened to their album at The Forum after that. Recording technology has come so far.👍
Appreciate your honest non bias accurate not too technical explanations
You know long time ago I used to enjoy very much my Sanyo system but I had to push the loudness button and turn the treble knob all the way up an a bit of the bass in order to enjoy my music. Today , on my modern amp , I just don’t need it and it sounds even much better even when my hearing got older along with me😊
If you want a vintage receiver buy a vintage receiver. The monster Pioneer SX-1980 (270W/Ch) receiver is available for about $12,000USD. Or the more modest Pioneer, SX-8500 II Integrated Amplifier & TX-9100 Tuner for around $1,200USD. Or if you want a modern vintage piece pick-up an Accuphase or Luxman.
Paul is absolutely right. I owned a few top tier vintage receivers. Sansui G9000, Pioneer SX1980, Sansui G7500 and Technics SA1000. All of which when compaired to todays separates gear are mediocre. They are built to compensate for garbage kabuki speakers. Use these receivers to power a modern speaker and they sound horrible, bloated nd overly warm. A great hifi system today, when set up right and the synergy is correct will musically outperform any receiver with tone, loudness or balance controls.. 110%. These people just never heard a great modern system... the same people who think power and speaker cables dont make a difference... because their systems are lacking/mediocre
And yet, many audiophiles are coming around to using Dirac or other room correction software, i.e. good old EQ controls, just done in software now instead of analog knobs. LOL.
Also, we still love and play albums from the 1970s that are "thin" sounding because they were mastered that way. We like to "juice them up" a bit if we can.
The "issue" with modern gear, including that from PS Audio, is that it has all the sexiness of a computer router you'd see in an IT center. Yes, it might be doing a great job, but it is visually boring.
Premium gear of the 70s makes a lot of fun and excitement .... if you combine it with well balanced speakers, from the new days.
I agree, thats a problem for some manufactors. When their pres and amps sound like medical gear from the hospital
Will you reissue PS Models from the 80s n 90s?
I was into hi-fi in the late 70s. Those were definitely NOT the good old days. My Phase Linear pre amp and amp were adequate for the affordable speakers of the day, but speakers in general were bad.
I love my Mcintosh system, but man I do remember the fisher systems in the 90’s they were pretty kick ass with the bells and whistles
I have a fisher 500 C that we use. It’s ridiculous. How good it sounds. 🤔
@@timessquarerecordscom1469 same here! 800C!
As someone who sold hi-fi in the 1970s, yes Paul is correct, most speakers were terrible, there were a few exceptions. ADS , IMF , MAGNAPAN , Allison. And a few models from infinity. I am sure there are more, but that’s all I can think of now.
Hi. Just a short thought. All tunes i‘m listening to are different in quality. I have old vinyl as well. I really need my tone control to adjust old music to my needs. That is why I allways have amps with tone controls. Cheers from Germany.
I think some people just like the nostalgia and fidgeting. Others like pressing a button and doing nothing. Sounds like the person might love Wilson Audio or similar with a ton of configurations and tinkering for the speaker. I used to love Alpine with the cool green lights in the car. Takes me back.
Of course, and we all know, one can mess with any number of EQ'ing components as an add on and probably end up with better results than the receiver being discussed - - - perhaps another reason that higher end products don't go down the rabbit hole of sound shaping (sans DSP) is an effort to clean up the signal path - there's still a fairly strong contingent of listeners that believe less, in the utilization of circuitry and switches, usually translates into better - sound wise.
Agreed. We lusted after these big receivers because they looked cool. The fact is, I never touched any of those knobs. Once you played with them a couple of times, you just turned the volume up or down. And the sound was crap.
Modern systems are boring because they are meant for listening to the gear, not the music, if you aren't listening to music why do you need tone controls and dodads? And all that tone control clutter made audiophiles nervous, like it added distortion that supposedly was audible and other nonsense marketing has made people believe over the years. It also saved money, why go to the effort to add features and controls when you can convince people to pay more for less options.
You are very right on studios making crap recordings. Just listen to albums all over. What tics me off , is you get 2, maybe 3, great sound and depth. Then they are recording at another studio to spread the wealth, and you want to hit that plater with a hammer. I cant spend the money on sacd recordings, and equipment to start all over. I would rather record on tape , the good stuff and really enjoy the good from the bad. Thank you Paul.
At low level listening and poor recordings I still use tone controls with my ATC speakers. Thanks for McIntosh, Luxman, Accuphase, to still provide them.
In my living room I have all the modern (and good) equipment you can wish for. In my study I have vintage paradise including tone controls, useless VU meters etc. Guess where I listen to my music (a lot of vinyl) the most. Music is emotion.
SA-8500 is an integrated amplifier not receiver (SX prefix receiver / SA prefix Integrated amplifier).
Exactly Paul, well said.
Back in my youth, my genius brother-in-law designed and built a dynamic expander. Maybe PS Audio could offer such a "mouse trap".
You can have these as plugins in the digital realm nowadays.
Interesting mention of Heresy. May be a talk on vintage speakers that are good as modern speakers?
It would be a short talk...there really aren't any. You could bring up, e.g., Quads, but those have such limitations in dynamics and extension that make them incompatible with modern hi quality digital recordings. Legacy Klipsch speakers, including the K-horn also suck by any objective modern standard.
@@johnstone7697 Another one that comes to mind is Rogers LS3/5.
Separates (amp & preamp) DO have controls. Receivers (as I notice a lot of people referring to) isn't in the same category. For example, if you walked into a hifi store today (or in the 70's), looking to audition (and possibly purchase) a nice new pair of speakers. The salesman would never demo those speakers through a receiver, would he? Of course not. They would play them, running through separates, so they would sound better. Now, if you were looking at some really inexpensive speakers, the salesman may play them through a receiver and turn up the bass or treble, so they would "seem" better.
Paul you reminded me of a CD that I looked forward to and when I got home it sounded like someone was eating a bag of chips in the background. I mean really enjoying them.
I had a Panasonic Quadraphonic system in the seventies. It wasn't great, but I bought it, and I loved it. Lol
With ideal equipment and setup situation, sure there's no need for additional adjustment. Most of the time that's not the case, but then problem 2 is will extra adjustments actually make it sound better. Can they even do the thing expected, do they have side effects, and the skill of the user especially. I've seen enough cases where EQs were used to make it sound worse. Maybe 90% of users tend to use them to raise the volume as well.
While my experience with newer room correction and DSP is minimal, I expect the lesson of older kinds of correction, from spectrum analysis down to loudness buttons and well-tuned radio tone controls will apply: some kind of adjustment is desirable to control the tradeoff of how much it actually sounds good vs. just letting the speakers do their thing. Unless that's built in of course.
Back in the day, a friend was planning to upgrade his integrated amp. I asked him what he was looking for and he said something black with a lot of knobs and switches.
My newer receiver has balance and tone controls. But they a buried deep in the menu. I to miss the days pf knobs and switches.
Now I don't just have to leave a like here, but simply say thank you: The decompression chamber has put more than just a smile on my face, no, this wonderfully honest statement has made my day incredibly beautiful today. So thank you very much and I'm already looking forward to the next day-brightener!
I loved the design of SONY and Marantz equipment from the 70's.
Still have (and use) my old SONY TA2000f pre-amp.
(I re-designed and re-built the line amps a few years ago...)
Today the knobs and switches feel "cheap"...
much like recordings they are being fed.