Stop Redeeming the Psycho Stalker - The Problem with Netflix's YOU
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ม.ค. 2020
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Reminder that the actor who plays Joe even publicly reminded everyone he is NOT a hero.
This happened in Australia years ago when a show called Underbelly was released. Each series is based on true stories of famous Australian gang criminals. It was an instant hit and actor Gyton Grantly had fans approach him saying they loved his portrayal of real life criminal Carl Williams, even saying he was their hero! Gyton had to assure them they shouldn't idolize him as Carl Williams is a murderer.
I feel bad for Penn. He literally spends half of his interviews telling people not to like Joe and if you do like Joe then you need to re-examine your morals, but no one listens.
@@maxhydekyle2425 Does Penn like Joe? lol
Nor is Walter White but we root for him, even Arthur Fleck Joker.
@@BJ-zd2or wich validate what he try to say...
I remember discussing with young teen girls that if someone is in your bedroom without your knowledge or permission, the words aren't "he's so romantic," they're "restraining order. "
brushfyr
That’s because female stalking behaviour isn’t romanticised and excused in pop culture. Instead, it’s either ridiculed and dismissed, or portrayed as creepy and dangerous (“Fatal Attraction”, “He loves me, he loves me not”).
You make it sound like boys are just naturally smarter about these issues, when they aren’t. Media just manipulates them in different ways.
Did you not hear about the yandere girl?
Draconis The Wyvern
I was talking about the western culture. I know nothing about animes. Are female yanderes romanticised in that medium?
@@haggisa an i was talking about actual events.
If you wanna talk about fictional material, Mirria Nikki off the top of my head.
The main girl is literally a god that is obsessed with the MC.
She even literally kidnaps him.
Senkou No Dragonar (i think i spelt that right), Eco abuses Ash PHYSICALLY. An its played for "comedic" effect.
And...
H3ll it's literally a trophe in anime that a girl or girls get jealous and start spying and stalking the guy they are into.
An its played as if it's completely a okay and normal to stalk people because you think something is going on.
Did you know that the Actor for Joe even said this show is “How fast can you forgive an attractive white man” and a lot of you... are doing it lol
where did he say this? i don't understand what skin color has to do with it the reason why people love joe is because he's charismatic and attractive and if a blackguy plays that roll I think people would still act the same I think
@@Dwight_ he said it on a late night show interview. Don’t know which one but I’m sure you can find it. I just came upon it one day.
@@Dwight_ and no... it would definitely not be the same if he was black. 🤷🏾♀️
@@ladynia1203
I'm not gonna say you're wrong and I'm not gone say your right, there aren't any movies or tv shows about a charismatic/attractive serial killer that is black so frankly until then we cant never know for sure honestly
@@ladynia1203 I always say that when I'm talking about Fifty Shades of Grey.
As someone who was stalked and harassed for two years: people will always paint the victim as selfish which is what I think they were doing with Beck.
A guy asked me out, I said no, and then he proceeded to ceaselessly corner me, try to get me alone, guilt and manipulate me. The reaction ingot from people was the same: "you should have just given him a chance! This is your fault because he clearly likes you a lot and you didn't go out with him. You are just being dramatic."
In a story where no should have been enough, I became the vain, self-centered and cruel villain who wouldn't even give the shy, devoted hero a chance. The more he stalked me, the more he attempted to bribe and manipulate me, the more I became a cold hearted b**** who was whining about his efforts when all I had to do was date him.
People have a messed up view of romance, and anyone who has actually suffered through being stalked will understand that it isn't cute...it is hell
And the worst part is your story isn’t an exception it’s a norm. A girl is supposed to be flattered by a “good guy”giving them attention and date them and when they don’t, like with you, there is a problem with the girl saying no, not the guy not taking a no. It’s seriously a dangerous issue.
@@michelledaly9089 the scariest part is that you are suddenly alone when you need the most people looking out for you. I was shocked at how many people close to me whom I trusted took the side of my stalker because they felt bad for him and thought he was being romantic. I was terrified and stressed constantly because people would go behind my back to help him and tell him info on where I was or what I was doing that he could use against me. Suddenly your whole world diminishes by half, and the other half is trying to take you down
I’m so sorry you went though that and hope you are healing💖
There are actually people with that mentality?... I'm scared...
@@aquaaria3489 yeah, and it was people I liked and trusted. Some of them were even on my side at first, but the longer it went on the more people began to pressure me to just give in.
People who root for Joe are propably the same ones that think that Joker's and Harley's relationship is adorable.
I couldn't agree more lol.
People who for Joe??? oh you mean _root_ for joe... I get it now.
I just actually want them to have a mostly normal relationship and am hoping that there's an interpretation where they actually are actual in a healthy relationship like bonnie and clyde.
Nope
Joker physically and mentally abused Harley
When did Joe did that ?
Only cute Harley and Joker relationship is the onw in the Lrgo games.... Would that mean Joe would be cute in Lego games? O.e
“Joe is the bad guy that dexter is waiting for.” Lol. I choked a bit.
i almost had a spit take when she said that...
Isn’t that season one of dexter?
@@amestrianidiot Isn't what season 1? That's too vague to answer.
Well it was an answer disguised as a question. Season one of dexter is where 2 serial killers watch each other.
@@amestrianidiot except brian isn't as sloppy as Joe
Reminds me of a meme I saw. It had pictures of the likes of Joe, Dexter, Walter White and Joker with the text, "If you idolize any of them, you missed the point!"
Well, that depends on your goals in life ;)
You can get the point and just happen to share their world view. I mean, I sure hope no one does, lol. But misunderstanding the point of those villain-centric shows isn't the ONLY way someone could come to idolize them 😏
I agree, except for Dexter.
Compared to Joker, Walter, Dexter had redeeming qualities.
While Dexter was a murderer, he was taught from a young age to only target bad people, and ultimately people that posed a threat to his family.
Joker kills indiscriminately and does his best to completely antagonize Batman, Walter White lies to himself when he says he's cooking Meth to support his family while also killing and manipulating.
@@KGPromiseGaming dexter killed animals
@@tuumanka7974 Yea, and he was taught to channel his psychopathic tendencies towards bad people.
I disagree that Joe was wrongfully romanticized and I actually think him having a moral code is realistic story writing. I think what was wrong was that people misinterpreted his character as an anti-hero instead of seeing him as the villain he clearly was portrayed as. Let me explain...
When I was going through comments of scenes from the first season, I was shocked to see how many Beck haters and team Joe people there were. Girls were even holding Joe up as a romantic ideal even after seeing the end to the season... yikes. But like you said his likable qualities weren’t because of the romantic lense like Edward’s character in Twilight, which is arguably more dangerous. BECAUSE we get to hear Joe’s twisted inner dialogue combined with his increasingly disturbing and irredeemable actions is what should tip us off to his villain-hood. The truth is, evil people can be VERY like-able, charming and charismatic. They can even have moral codes and be benevolent and kind. Every time I see a real crime story like this I always see a clip of the neighbors shaking their head in disbelief saying “what a nice guy” he was. They’d be involved in the church, a protector of the neighborhood, or just over all a well liked and respected upright citizen. These people aren’t always unshowered loners who hide behind a computer, they’re often among us as people we would see as “a nice guy”. And they can be, to certain people for whatever reason. I like that it explores the reality that someone can BOTH be a “nice guy” to one person and an evil person to another.
I see “You” as a groundbreaking realistic portrayal of the kind of villain that no one seems to be aware of and can’t seem to understand because they don’t fit into a certain box. (As long as they don’t freaking redeem him in the end, please). My hope is that it brings awareness to the wolves in sheep’s clothing in our society that hopefully none of us ever have to encounter but probably do without knowing it. (Also the hate Beck’s character received made me terrified for society... SHE WAS LITERALLY THE HERO - I was rooting for her to get away the whole time, but alas the villain won) but then again, that is pretty close to reality even if it is unexpected in film.
I agree accept for Beck part. She was a bad person, maybe not evil but selfish and bad, the type that would use you then chew you up and spit you out. She had no empathy, as we see when she cheated on Joe but wanted him back once she see he was with someone else then enjoyed how she's made Karen feel and powerful that Joe chose her over her.
Em C I didn’t see her as someone who had no empathy at all. She was a cheater, but a lot of people are, and they don’t deserve to die. She was just immature in some ways. If anything those qualities make her more of an anti-hero figure but certainly not a villain. It also makes me wonder if people were so hard on her cause she’s a woman. Women cheaters are less tolerated then when men cheat.
@@emc354 Cheating means you have no empathy? What?! You need to reread the definitions I think.
@@introvertedinfp Yeah, women cheating is way less tolerated than when men cheat still. Slowly getting there, though... maybe.
@@annnee6818 Not just for the cheating that's just one example. I understand the definition of empathy thank you, it's the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. We never witnessed her do this, it was all about Beck. Especially didn't like her reaction to Karen when they bumped in to one another after she got back with Joe. That showed lack of empathy.
"Romance is not, in fact, dead."
Congratulations. Not even two minutes in and I almost spat my tea all over my phone and laptop.
horror vacui it's definitely alive, I keep it in my basement.
@@Sou1Reav3r 😂😂😂
Even if I invited someone into my house, I still wouldn't want them to watch me sleep.
Unless I am part of a sleep study, I don't want anyone watching me sleep.
Well, there go my weekend plans.
Jerry Cant lol I have done two sleep studies.. absolutely hated it and could not sleep because I knew I was being watched.
Aight boys we gotta arrest Santa
And god.
Is it ok if it's my mom while we cuddle on a cold day?
As a stalk victim, you literally don't have to do ANYTHING (but exist) for some insane person to go after you. Sadly
True been there,not romantic, horrifying
I remember that I was followed home when I was in fourth grade by a group of seven or eight boys that looked like they were in high school. the only way that I got away was sprinting across the street, nearly getting hit by a car to escape and sprinted home. I never saw those boys again.
You don't even have to exist, looking at all the neckbeards
The thing is that scares me is that we don't exist to them actually all they want is an image they constructed in their minds it's why I have so many hoodies now
@@nattyism That’s is freaking scary
I honestly thought of Joe taking care of Paco and doing nice acts as a way to say, even the nicest people you meet can end up being crazy. It made me think of how Ted Bundy was described as very handsome and charming and he ended up being a serial killer. Maybe it was just me but I never thought of him as a good person after he does these nice things, I think it makes his character more disturbing actually.
Yeah, Bundy even had a long term girlfriend and was in her kid’s life, seeming a stable partner and father figure the entire time until he got caught. It’s crazy.
I saw a lot of videos where the serial killers were "these nice old people- a grandma and a grandpa". The photos were so disturbing...
Exactly how I took it too, I think it's dangerous to assume that people who do horrible things are incapable of doing good things or at least putting on some kind of facade of good. I immediately thought of true crime too and how often there's a neighbor or family member saying something along the lines of "they were such a good member of the community" or "such a good parent/friend", it doesn't mean they are incapable of horrible things. Plus with the kids, I don't actually believe they were better off. Sure, Paco is now safe from his abusive father and he prevented Ellie from being harmed by a predator, but at the end of it all Ellie is left without a sister and has to flee LA from a false accusation, and Paco is left forever changed as evidenced by him turning the other way when Beck is screaming for help and looking up so much to Joe. So I don't understand why people think it hurts the narrative and cite him helping these kids when at the end of it he's just projecting so heavily on them.
And wasn't Bundy really nice to his girlfriends daughter?
Especially when he traumatized Paco and had him lie to the police. That's what was good about it. Joe thought he was the good guy and thought he had pure intentions, but he was just another monster. It seemed like he took care of the kids and let the guy go to prove to himself that he's a good person.
Wait, where there really people who were rooting for Joe?
Right? I liked the show, and I thought the point of it was that being inside the psycho's head was meant to be creepy. The way his narrative was so different from what was really happening was supposed to slide relationships back into the uncanny valley and send shivers down your spine. I guess some young and impressionable viewers might take it at face value, but it's really their parents' responsibility to keep their kids from watching a show like "You" in the first place.
@Thirza I mean, yeah people still root for Walter White. So there's plenty of dumb people who completely missed the point.
yes, but lots of other people just like to hold onto their own moral standpoints and assume that everyone has to think or view things in the exact same way as them
A lot of people were rooting and still are rooting for Joe and think Beck deserved to die because she was a "slut", I also have seen some of this weirdos being sad because Joe doesn't love Love anymore because she's like him, because the idea of two killers being a couple is soooo "romantic", ugh I'm going to throw up
Those people need help.
Thing is, Joe is supposed to be a sort of satire of the "nice guy" trope in classic chick flicks and rom-coms. Looking back at them you'll notice that a lot of the "nice guys" are actually pretty toxic.
Lmao yup.
5:29 🙃
THIS!
Especially male feminists.
Holy foick that is so crazy I never realized my first thought was the guy from friends who was obsessed with rachael
Bad people can do good things. I think it's interesting that kid's dad sniffed that Joe was a creep. Seeing other people in the show confirming that he's off is really important.
But does it count that the person who sniffed him out is WORSE than him?
It’s an interesting dynamic because ultimately the people who sniff out joe are usually people who’ve done bad things themselves (Peach, Ron), like they know what to look out for. Meanwhile the better natured, albeit pretentious people don’t realize it because Joe is just a good manipulator and people like that usually want to give benefit of the doubt. But as the seasons go on, more people, and not just people like Ron, recognize something is up with him
It took one to know one.
Robert he definitely aint WORSE
He's not redeemable though. They say multiple times that it's part of Joe's delusion. He does bad stuff then 'helps' someone to justify his own actions & feel like he's actually a good guy. But we see him stalking, murdering, dismembering people...etc then he thinks he did someoen a favour, meanwhile everything blows up in his face...again. Then we see the horror from the girl's perspective.
The only problem is that people watching the show don't know how to pick up on the satirical jabs (apparently a lot of people don't understand satire) & even when the show outright says 'he's a monster' there are girls out there who are messaging Penn Badly saying they want Joe to kidnap them etc. It's messed up.
But speaking as someone with a background in psychology, I can say they do a great job of showing the layers to Joe's delusion & psychopathy. I don't see anything redeemable with his character because it's all for show - to stroke his own ego.
Thank you that's what i'm saying
The people saying along the lines like it's redeeming joe and the show is trying to make him a good guy clearly missed the whole point of the show
I don't see Joe as a redeemed character but I felt like someone like Joe specifically (like obviously hasn't killed anyone before) would've messed up and get caught by the police and end of going to jail. It's been awhile since I've seen the show but didn't Joe just seem like the type to forget something important (kind of like the pee in that one girl's house) and it would've been over for him like that?? From what I remembered he didn't seem like he knew what exactly he should've done after killing someone
I like the show because of that. I like the fact that they're satirical about it, and that they don't make Joe look like a good guy. The whole idea is that you see Joe dismembering someone going ''I had to, I did it for you Love.'' and you go ''Erm, no lol''
exactly!!! even penn badgely has said so many times you're not supposed to like joe yet people somehow still don't get it (though ig its because penn is so attractive lol)
Exactly. He is this story's Humbert, it's from his perspective for a reason.
Not to mention, someone having redeeming qualities doesn't make them redeemable, not neccesarily. Would you say Ted Bundy was redeemable because he worked at a suicide hotline? Hell no.
But Joe is not once redeemed, at least not by the narrative itself.
**SPOILERS**
By the end of both series we can see him be right back on the same bullshit - constructing a narrative for himself (e.g. that he "had to" do all those things or that he "didn't mean for them to happen") and most importantly: *stalking a brand new woman.* He's never going to change and that's a pretty clear message.
And that's why I'm not watching this. Thx for clearing up the triggers.
@@NaginiRiddle What do you find triggering in that if you dont mind me asking?
@Ms Rana Thats not really how triggers work
@@MyMessyMind If you been through narcissistic psychopath borderline relationships, not once bot a lot .. you want to reconsider to watch this. I could search for more but I'm just thankful that people watching this and I won't get triggered by a person obsessed with his right to "love".
Except remember it's a series.. the choices of redemptive elements, where there shouldn't be any, matters. Take the main "love" interest change in Love, she is supposed to point out how the rom-com idealism translates into toxic/abusive relations. Instead she becomes a "that crazy ex" personality who you lose all empathy for at the moment your heart should have broken for her. The caged bff should act as an antagonistic force, even if just in Joe's head, but instead reinforces that Joe isn't so bad to viewers by even talking to him (it's a subconscious bias manipulation used in most anti-hero hostage films).
I can’t watch You for the exact reasons you talked about. I have an ex-friend that I later discovered had a really bad obsession with me, and he would say and do really creepy things that forced me to cut him off. The thing is, he’s still friends with my friends, and while they believe me, they have a hard time believing that he’s a stalker until he starts talking about me. He has a lot of “redeemable” qualities and home trauma, but it doesn’t change the fact that his mere presence puts me on guard.
Hold that line, friend!!! It sounds like you are *unusually* skilled or gifted at detecting that crap and giving enough of a crap about it, because terrifying numbers of people *aren't* (my younger/past self sadly included), and then we get *wrecked* in godawful, toxic, hurtful relationships. CONTENT WARNING: I had numerous damaging, unhealthy, abusive, toxic friendships, one three-year boyfriend who fits the same description, and a really bad dating experience which included a non-rape sexual assault, ALL because I'm a kind person who was more inclined to ignore red flags and my own gut feelings and try to understand/help someone who had many other good qualities and behaviors. (I'm not blaming myself, I was taught to do that and tolerate/accept bad behavior by my family from the time I was a little kid, and I had to unlearn it the hard way.) Now I am a kind person who is kind to myself first, and that means not keeping people in my life who aren't good for me. Full stop. End of discussion.
If you have a bad gut feeling and/or have info that some of someone's behavior is not okay, *all* props to you for cutting that out of your life. I'm so sorry more of your friends can't/don't/won't see it that way, both because you deserve support and because it leaves them vulnerable. (It also reinforces to the problem person that their behavior is okay, because they haven't lost more friends over it.) I have also been surrounded by friends, and even family, who went that way. It sucked; it hurt and it made me second-guess myself. I hope you also have people who see things like you do and support you, and I hope you don't second-guess yourself.
Sorry that was so long and intense, but if your friends aren't there for you on this, I figured some random person on the internet could be! Take care and be happy. :)
same here, people keep telling me it's a good series, but having bad experiences regarding stalking and stuff, noo thanks
Ex girlfriend put me through this show. It was interesting up until the universe saves joe one too many times. I pointed this out in my review after we finished it and we went off about it. I said it should end. This guy is never gonna change. That's it. I don't need to see anymore. He shouldn't be idolized. People are too quick to forgive an attractive white guy. Over the next few months I started to notice obsessive and manipulative behavior I dismissed as typical stuff a person in time of need would do due to circumstances she was under when we first met. Obviously she wasn't crossing any major lines in terms of comparison to what joe does but it was enough to bother me. Her vision of love felt rushed af and unrealistic. We're talking "I want to marry you and have your baby. Look I already have names" type shit. Now I'd like to have that one day but not that soon with someone I just met. I figured out she lied to me about both her age and name. Not gonna date for a while
Had a similar situation. Even years later he asks about me and one of my former friends started to date him and feed him info about me. Yeah that was...terrifying.
@@franz3810 it's nothing great. It isn't bad but yeah you're not missing much. Don't watch anything you don't wanrt to.
My husband's reaction to the kids was, "crap he's making a mini version of him"
same like the end of hannibal. Grooming the next pyscho
I didn't find Joe being nice to Paco as a way to make him more sympathetic. I thought it really exemplifies the way abusive people can put on totally different masks around the people they aren't abusing. Just because someone is wonderful and nice to me doesn't mean that they aren't abusive to others.
thats exactly how covert narcissists work. they are nice to people in public, outside of you. they come home and abuse you. you tell others and they ask what YOU did wrong to make him upset. it's a trap.
Well actually Joe could relate to Paco's experiences
Yes, please do 50 shades (of crap).
"Do you want baby green, or burrito brown in the living room?"
50 shades of brown (and some green sometimes)
It’s very interesting to see how differently people perceived this show. to me all the “redeeming bits” made him seem a lot more dangerous and unlikable cause he genuinely thought he was a good man with good intentions. It also made me question our perception of “love” cause some of the things joe does for beck -if you didn’t know he was a murderer and a creep- could potentially be seen as “romantic” and “thoughtful” which i think that was the whole point of the show, to make you question your expectations of “love” and your partner and realising how some of these expectations are ridiculous behaviours adapted to our lives from films and books. Love isn’t devoting your life to a person and love definitely isn’t expecting someone to hold you everytime you fall (as beck did).
S2 was a bit off tho i’m not going to lie i feel like the narrative was a lot less clear than s1 where it was quite obvious that joe wasn’t the hero of this story. But that ending made me feel a lot better since it was a VERY CLEAR message that joe doesn’t fall in love, what he thinks is love isn’t love but just an obsession.
I also don’t think penn badgley wouldn’t have taken this role if he felt like it was excusing joe’s behaviour because he, LITERALLY IN EVERY SINGLE INTERVIEW (i dare you to go look for any of his interviews for YOU) says that joe is a murderer, you shouldn’t like him and what he thinks is “love” isn’t actually love AT ALL. I’d advise you to listen to him talk about this cause i feel like he truly understood the message of the show.
As much as I hate most of the other characters (Beck, Forty, Peach, etc.), he’s not redeemable in the slightest. I love the show but this is why I can’t get onboard with the fandom because so many of them think Joe is so romantic. He’s a great character and I love him in the sense that he’s an interesting fictional character but his actions are beyond toxic and are completely unacceptable. He’s a toxic person who surrounds himself with other toxic people.
In the second season, they softened him considerably. He only kills two people and the first person he kills is in self defense and the second was semi accidental and a rapist. On the one hand, it's necessary to keep people watching and on the other it significantly undermines the point that the show is trying to make. I want the last season to focus on his trial and the media sensation it would almost certainly be.
@@davidsumner7604 I thought it was being undermined as well, until the very end even AFTER he "gets the girl", he's back on his bs and stalking the neighbor woman. I feel like that final scene encapsulates how deranged he really is and highlights that he's incapable of loving anything but his own projections. I honestly want it to end there and anything further would be too neat and tidy of an ending.
That's the scary thing though, evil people can be VERY likeable and charming to be around. That's a classic psychopath hidden in the crowds.
"Joe is the guy Dexter is waiting for."
Okay, if any Netflix writers see this, the ending should be that Dexter kills Joe. If you can't get the rights to the character, have it be a character played my Michael C. Hall who's strongly implied to be Dexter.
I need this in my life
It whould be the perfect ending!
I Was thinking the same thing about Riverdale where at the end Freddy Krüger, Jason, Chucky, Michael, Bubba, Billy Lenz, Brahms, Chad etc come to Riverdale by the order of Penelope and pin the mudreds on Betty.
I think You is the "nice guy" trope taken for what it actually is, plus slightly darker. The guy who is supposedly sweet, but actually lingers around other conversations with others, trying to win the girl over by being her saviour, etc.
I had a stalker at one time, it was a nightmare, the best news I ever got was that she had died.
Jesus
It is a very relieving feeling. Sad, but true.
ooof
That's actually a good end for you. XD Not everyone who gets stalked, has that ending. :/
What is with stalkers/rapists suddenly being redeemed in TV shows? In the first two seasons of "Thirteen Reasons Why", Bryce is unapologetic for having ruined so many lives, but after he's killed, the show suddenly shows him trying redeem himself, only to be rejected at almost every turn.
And Joe only becomes sympathetic once his tragic past is revealed, and Love admits that she's just as axe crazy as he is.
Er, I don't think sympathy and redemption are quite the same thing.
Axe crazy is offensive. We prefer to be referred to as 'homicidally gifted'.
Trina Q
I can’t comment on the second season of “You”, but the first one definitely doesn’t try to frame Joe as redeemable. In fact one of the very last scenes of the final episode shows him as completely unremorseful for having killed the girl he supposedly loved.
Does season 2 really portray Joe as a likeable anti-hero? Is his past used to justify his actions, or is it merely employed as an expansion of his backstory?
Anyone can be redeemed.
A lot of kid shows have been having arcs about genocidal dictators getting redeemed.
"Joe is the bad guy that Dexter's waiting for."
Oh Lord I didn't know I wanted this crossover.
I interpreted the show’s choice to attach Joe to children as an extension of his psychopathy. On a certain level there’s the idea that these kids represent an opportunity for him to protect his younger self from whatever harmed him as a child and made him what he is, on another level the pattern of behavior represents a sort of orderliness, and on a further level he’s romanticizing not only the image of his romantic target to himself, but romanticizing his own internal self image. Joe invest attachment in these kids because if someone like Beck is the female lead of the romance novel, then he thinks he is the male lead and has to do chivalrous things like protecting children. He does get personally invested selflessly across the depiction, but his initial sentiments are more selfish and about him. So the overall depiction ends up being that he tries to help for superficially good reasons, but his motivation in helping is born of the same obsessive tendencies as in the rest of his character and this is why it backfires toxically. He’s trying to do the right things and that momentarily makes him someone the audience sides with, but his motives lead to poor choices and remind the audience that even when he’s sort of good, it is for the wrong reasons.
I disagree with this, not because you are wrong, but because that's what literally every one does when they are "being a good person." Rape councilors are often rape victims themselves, and helping others cope helps them feel like they have power. Psychiatrists are often fucked up themselves and are interested in seeing how others tick so they can understand themselves better. There is no such thing as a truly 100% selfless good act, everything is gray depending on how you look at it. His love of Paco is very pure, he doesn't stalk Paco and he genuinely tries to make his life better, to the point of it negatively affecting his own life. You can be a psychopath and love kids, they aren't mutually exclusive
@@skeetsmcgrew3282 I didn't say that a psychopath can't love kids, I actually said that opposite when I said " He does get personally invested selflessly across the depiction, but his initial sentiments are more selfish and about him.
The point you're addressing of the three I mentioned is the one that I suggested made him relatable ("makes him someone the audience sides with"), but the other two motives (a need for orderliness, building his own internal self image) are purely selfish and are the type of behavior that would be identified as toxic. Joe obsesses with artificial depictions of romance and has a personal need to follow that archetype (even to disastrous result). Part of satisfying that need is being the type of person who helps children, which as a consequence of this being a selfish personal need leads him into creating the exact circumstances from which he must protect children.
I never go the feeling that some of Joe's actions (at least in the first season) were meant to redeem him, but to add depth to his character. We're following the villain of the series, but giving him some semblance of a moral code (that he was protective of some kid) made it seem that, in universe, people could perceive him as a good person, and so it seemed more plausible that his worse behavior could go undetected. In the end though, even in the context of him seeming like a good person, he still used a lot of violence to solve his problems. In the second season, though, there was a much lower amount of creepiness to "heroism," which did come across like it was meant to be redeeming.
Really? There was a lower amount of creepiness to his heroism in S2? Didn't he like hack a teen girls phone without her knowning during that season?
it could also just be pointing out how villians try to perceive themselves as good guys. not actually saying they're good guys
I disagree, I really never got the impression that he was nice to Paco to hide the fact that he was a weirdo, because he doesn’t think he’s a weirdo
Paco stuff makes a bit more sense, he may see himself in him, but Ellie and the internal ‘protection’ monologue was very weird to me
Nick Stoever he definitely perceived himself as a good person which is a great angle and makes sense, but he’s not nice to Paco because he thinks it’s what he should do, it’s displayed as something he wants to do. Going to dexter again as an example, there’s stuff he does where he acknowledges that it’s to seem normal, Joe doesn’t think that way
Yeah I never saw him as a good person, just a murderous stalker who had some positive traits, that were obviously outweighed by all the murdering and stalking. I get that giving him a moral code is a change from the book, but I don't think it's really a bad one, and I like my villains to have more dimensions to them anyway.
He really never actually redeems himself
*spoiler
At the end of season 2 after he’s starting to seem like he’s getting better he goes and starts the whole process again, so in no way is he supposed to be seen as the good guy. The character is written well to the point where he can seem likeable even though you know what he’s done and some people even believe he is the good guy but that’s realistic! The same people who see him as the good guy are the same people that wanted to get with ted bundy during and after the trials.
I lowkey feel like people just want uncomplicated mustache twirlers with no depth, because other wise you "glorify" negative traits somehow.
Very confusing honestly.
@@Porlarta No. It's because redemption is routinely fucked up in many stories. In both non-professional and professional writing, I have seen murderers or just complete dickheads be redeemed with no real guilt on their part for their actions and very little, if any, work on their part to fix their mistakes or better themselves. Hell, one of the most famous properties in history has one of these examples... Star Wars and Darth Vader (and now Kylo). We tend to let that one be because it's a stupid fantasy story more concerned with theme over realism, but it still stands out. And all of this *does* have an effect. It's honestly more gross for me to witness when a young, inexperienced writer does this than a seasoned professional, because I know that the latter led to the former.
So I get why people are leery of shows that try to add "depth" to an irredeemable character. Because we've seen this song and dance before, and it's usually a bad portent of things to come. But hey, if this show really does make it clear that the guy is an eternal scumfuck, awesome. That should happen more often. But my question is, if all that "depth" you mentioned is essentially invalidated by making it clear in the end that he's just a bad guy, is it really depth at all? I don't think so. Just seems like wasted time. After all, as I understand it, the original story didn't have any of these elements, and ultimately made the exact same salient point it was going for.
This is also why people are leery of the concept of "depth" in general. Far more often than we think, simple straightforward writing tells the best stories with the most to actually say, while "complex" writing either destroys stories or obfuscates the point with unneeded bullshit.
frieza65 It’s why I liked Xena the warrior Princess , not matter how much good she did. She couldn’t erase her past, it effected all her major decisions, it’s constantly brought up, it continuously has consequences for her and her loved ones. She has to try and make amends throughout the years. And in the end she still has to pay with her life to do the right thing. She struggles to stay on the right path, no 180 with her.
@@frieza65
It is depth, even if the guy is irredeemable. Because depth only means complicated vs simple, depth means layers and you can be many layers of fucked up. And even if at the bottom of those layers is an abused child or tragic backstory, it still doesn't make the character redeemable (because the vast majority of people who went through the same things didn't go on to harm people). Depth only serves to not give people a cartoon, black & white, born of pure evil villain, and give them something very realistic instead.
@Sabrina Owens to be fair if you look it up it seems like they wanted to redeem Azula for season 4
This reminds me of the Zac efron when he played Ted Bundy and everyone was more focused on how cute he was regardless of him killing people
Happens just as often, perhaps far more even, with women. Even the most abusive, emotionally manipulative, horrible person gets away with it because 'But, she's so hot though!", or "yeah, I know...but that body!".
It's like a trope at this point. "Alyssa, Why do you stay with Jason Mamoa? Why, just THIS time he almost broke your eye socket he hit you so hard!"
"Yeah, I know :(....but he's Jason Mamoa, I can't stay mad at him, sure, he slaps me around and makes me do slave tasks for him, but then he lets me lick his abs and it's all ok".
Lol. Swap genders and sub in any hot female celeb for Mamoa and it's the same.
(I'm not throwing any real shade at Jason Mamoa, he's actually a very nice, great person in real life. I just use that as an example of a 'sex symbol' that MANY thirsty women would basically tolerate anything from to be with.)
Pattinson will now be playing a character that dresses up as a bat, lurks in the shadows, spies on people, and then kicks their asses.
I know Batman is a vigilante but that's not doing much to portray the antithesis of a psycho stalker. Lol
Pattinson being typecast again.
Johnny Guillotine You forget about the people like the Joker that make bulk of his nemesis. You know, the ones that pretty much would destroy Gotham every other week without Batman. And you’re overlooking one thing... he’s not there to fix society’s problems... that’s why Bruce Wayne creates charities. Batman is there to protect people fro harm. Society needs to step up and create programs to assist the poor to create a system of empowerment for themselves against the rich. But as society (including the poor) would rather play with the latest IPhone and rant about about issues on social media there isn’t going to be any change.
We are no longer a capitalist society; we are now an oligarchy that will forever be enslaved to corporate interests. Change this, help raise up the underclass, and maybe the Batman will no longer be necessary.
If he was even real that is.
He is good in lighthouse
Pattinson is AMAZING in Water for Elephants!!
@Johnny Guillotine there aren’t any, but then, no government in the world has ever fixed societies problems and when trying to fix one, often make others worse (Communist Parties of the world, Socialist Parties of the world, etc.). No charity in the world will ever totally fix a problem either. The Gates’ money that they donate many $$$ have also yet to solve a single problem, but they do help many people. They help many people, but they are probably never going to fix any problem, just help as many people as the charities can. Human trafficking has a crap ton of charities, but it is still a huge problem where I live. So much so, I only feel safe when I’m around people I know or am carrying and only between 6 am and 9 pm. And yes, I do live in a pretty good city in Ohio, but the biggest problem where I live is overdosing and human trafficking. I am not saying what Batman is doing is right, it’s illegal after all and if everyone did this it would be a problem, but, as a rich person, he is doing very well. However, I do agree with the fact that, because he has the ability to, he does help stop super villains such as those the JLA face that want to destroy the world. (This includes aliens, super humans, and psychopaths such as the Joker and Harley Quinn.)
A girl I knew a while ago was stalked, when she told my group and showed us a picture one of the other girls said, "Oh but he's kind of cute tho". I kind of feel she would be one the people saying how much the love the character.
I still remember a girl who says, after seing a show where a cute boy do something bad, "that wouldn't happen in real life because he is too cute to be a villain". She was only 12 at the time but somehow, a couple of years later, I wasn't surprised to learn that the guy she was dating was playing with her... I'm pretty sure she would have loved Joe too.
There are no slip ups that make him likable. Rise moments where he’s “likable” are a testament to how well the show is portraying the characters. Those moments you’re describing are the moments where you as a viewer are relating to his perspective and behavior.
I actually really liked the addition of the kid in the first season. I thought it captured the idea of these kind of obsessive people being "saviours". They often rescue their "love interest" or other people because they believe that they have to. It's pretty classic abuser behaviour.
Now I can see an argument about how it doesn't fit with Joe's specific mental issues, but I'd like to see more of it highlighted in media coz its really bad and helps abusers ensnare their victims. There was a bit in 50 shades where Christian rescues Ana from Jose and Jack. It is frequently romanticized.
So I don't think it made Joe more sympathetic. But I'm happy to hear other people's perspectives on why they do.
PL-EASE do a video ripping 50 shades a new one.
All the movie did was give abusive assholes a mask to hide behind.
Chaotic Neutral Cosplay
That, and it gave abused women confirmation, that their present relationship is what a relationship actually should be. It’s heartbreaking.
Pleeeze yes
I like to think the entire internet is a Joe.
Not as handsome, stage 5 beergut, and permanent Cheeto stains on the fingers version sure.
Don't name it!!! It'll grow a personality of its own, like HAL! We're doomed, DOOOOOOOOOOMED!
Are you wrong tho?
My name is Yoshikage Kira. I'm 33 years old. My house is in the northeast section of Morioh, where all the villas are, and I am not married. I work as an employee for the Kame Yu department stores, and I get home every day by 8 PM at the latest. I don't smoke, but I occasionally drink. I'm in bed by 11 PM, and make sure I get eight hours of sleep, no matter what. After having a glass of warm milk and doing about twenty minutes of stretches before going to bed, I usually have no problems sleeping until morning. Just like a baby, I wake up without any fatigue or stress in the morning. I was told there were no issues at my last check-up. I'm trying to explain that I'm a person who wishes to live a very quiet life. I take care not to trouble myself with any enemies, like winning and losing, that would cause me to lose sleep at night. That is how I deal with society, and I know that is what brings me happiness. Although, if I were to fight I wouldn't lose to anyone.
I was so shocked to find out people don’t watch YOU the same way we watch docs about serial killers cause...you know...it’s a fictionalised doc about a stalker/serial killer...
When the trailer for You season 1 came out I remember that like me a lot of Gossip Girl fans were applauding.
**SPOILER ALERT FOR GOSSIP GIRL**
So basically in gossip girl which also stars Penn Badgley he is this lower class nobody who becomes so infatuated with the upper class it girl Serena so much so he creates a website gossip girl that basically follows her life and reports on it (the site posts about other people but the first post and most of the post were about her and her friends). A year or so later he has a run in with her which gives him an excuse to write himself into her life (he starts posting about himself in the third person). In the finale when it is revealed that he is gossip girl they are mad but she eventually forgives him and marries him. Penn's character being g.g. wasnt the original plan but still allowing him to marry his love interest who he stalked, harrassed, and manipulated for years was so irresponsible.
So anyways a lot of Gossip Girl fans saw You as an appropriate reaction to finding out your boyfriend has been stalking you.
I like to pretend the finale never happened. The show had a lot of issues looking back but the GG reveal was beyond fucked up. Why! WHY!
I thought you were going to say that the dude is gossip girl kills people and I was getting pretty excited.
I like to think that this is a secret sequel to Gossip Girl and he's just a completely unreliable narrator of his own past.
ugh nate and serena were MEANT to be together. i like to believe dan just became joe after a couple years of marriage w serena. serena divorced dan and she gets married to nate😋
Joe is the bad guy Dexter is waiting for. I love this quote so much. Thank you.
-Sage
This honestly reminds me of Killing Stalking. Its a really crazy Manhwa if anyone is interested in reading. Warning though, it's VERY messed up.
I fucking HATE Killing Stalking. I hate that the main guy is soooo romanticized, I hate that people ship the two, I hate the graphic violence and extreme abuse between the two, I hate everything about the damn series.
@@supershepherd yeah shipping them is messed up. I don't think it's been romanticized tho. It clearly reads like a stockholm syndrome thriller.
Personally I thought giving him some "redeeming" qualities worked well with the intent of the show because it shows you that dangerous people can be people you see doing good things, being nice and helpful etc so basically the show is telling you to be careful and to not think that you can spot dangerous and obsessive people that easily. Also I just think it's more realistic because I don't think anyone just does horrible things in all aspects of their life, you can be a terrible person but also have "soft spots" or morals reguarding certain situations, that doesn't mean they're not bad people but they're complex.
Agreed, and I think it gives the character nuance rather than this dichotomy so many people seem to be thrusting on the show or Joe the character. Why does this have to be framed in terms of rooting for Joe as if we're picking a political team? Maybe not so much in taking season 1 by itself but now at the end of season 3, I think the show basically throws the problem with rationalizing violence and murder as answer to a problem back in the audience's face. 20 minutes into S3e1 and clearly there was only one solution to such a painfully comatose, superficial and hypocritical neighbourhood. Flamethrower! Joe and Love seemed oddly sane in one respect when juxtaposed with the veneer of modern life.
I don't see the problem with injecting "altruistic" murders into this mix though Joe's show character. The audience to some degree is engaging in the same violence as means to an end rationalization. So adding the kid characters provides another aspect to this line of thinking and it makes sense. The notion to think you're doing these kids a solid by way of murder is really distorted, but we can see it is rooted in an innate need to protect.
I'm willing to let the day job logistics slide because I get more out of this as far as storytelling and themes go. It's not just focused on the obsessive find a mate angle. Yeah maybe some people would prefer that be the only focus, but I believe that alone is one symptomatic set of behaviours that certainly don't exist in a vacuum. When Joe's frame of reference is dysfunctional early childhood filled with violence it then follows he would 1) have a really idealized version of what a family should be and 2) perpetuate the cycle of violence to reach said expectation of family. It makes sense this would get projected onto a relationships children, especially one in a situation Joe can identify with. Just because Joe assumed the role of hero had an immediate fix to someone who had it coming, there's no guarantee Paco's life is going play out any better. Perhaps he becomes the next Joe in 20 years.
Anyway, there's more here than obsessing over stalker tropes.
I kinda saw the “moral code bits” as making him worse because joe believes he is a good person and he is doing good and isn’t crazy
“Romance is in fact, not dead” that made me chuckle
i thought season two was brilliant, tricking the viewer into rooting for joe, (i remember sitting there and thinking "come on man, you can do it, no creepy stuff now and you'll get the girl!!!!") then giving it a really satisfying ending before completely ruining it and breaking the viewer's bubble, reminding them in the most perfect way how awful of a person joe actually is.
There's no way Joe can redeem himself, tbh, I didn't see it in the show. Did people think that?
I remember with watching season one, Beck was the character that infuriated me not only because of her poor decisions but with the fact that I found her so relatable to my own life and relationship struggles. That was where I found the true horror of YOU was in how easily I as the viewer was duped into Joe’s messed up thinking and realizing how even though I consider myself to be intelligent and a good judge of character, I probably would be no better off than Beck was if in her position. EEK!!!
Now this is a book/show I want to read/see a gender bent version of! How would it make us feel to hear the twisted inner monologue of the self-proclaimed hero but in actuality creepy, stalker girl? And how would the characters differ?
I feel like whenever Joe disliked another character in the show, there was some justification for it. At least a little bit. The writing validated him. And that’s BAD. Stalkers in the real world often dislike people for irrational or selfish reasons and we should’ve seen Joe do that more
I absolutely agree with that. Basically everyone was an asshole in this, and the consensus amonst my friends was that the world would be better off with all of them dead.
That's not an adaption issue though; they were like that in the book too.
@@sleepysera Absolutely. Every character was a total pos, except the kids. Joe was following his moral code to purge the evil people from the world, it just so happened that a lot of people were evil in his world. The big question the show presented was, whose job is it to get rid of the trash? If you sit idle, it will build and the innocent will be corrupted and become part of it. If you fight it, you'll get your hands dirty and be a bad guy like Joe. And all kids are basically doomed from the start, cause they will just grow up to become controlling, shallow, self serving, or become a psycho that is shallow, self serving, but for the "greater good".
@Sabrina Owens you would be surprised by how many people think like that
@@sleepysera is being annoying or unlikable really an act that warrants death ?
@@yumnamuchine4795 Exactly I always thought the was the point, some of these people were bad or annoying. Or flawed like Beck but didn't deserve any of the things that Joe did. He just justifys his terrible actions with, but they aren't perfect people
I think the reason why they show Joe caring for those kids and being a nice person is to show a realistic look into a stalker. These people actually look like normal people in real life. They're not awful all the time, sometimes they're even charming and that's why it's hard to know when someone is so dangerous. Because from the outside they just look like a normal person. I think that's why it was important for Joe to have a moral code. It's more realistic
I didn’t know this was an adaptation. When you said that the whole Paco plot was added in the series, everything made so much sense suddenly. Somehow, it felt really disconnected from the rest of his character.
As a Dexter super fan, I thank you for that statement. Dexter would've caught Joe after Peaches' murder and Beck would still be alive.
How many times do I have to say it?? Just because they were abused doesn't mean they're abusive behaviors are okay nor does it excuse them!!!
“It would be terrifying if you knew that someone was watching you sleep who you had not let into your house” I would be terrified if even my best friend was doing this.
Your best friend: "I like.....watching you sleep".
Gf - "I heard about a new show we should watch. He's basically a serial killer that you end up rooting for."
Me - "Ohh, so like Dexter? Shit yeah I'm down!"
2 seasons later
Me -"WTF DID I JUST WATCH?!?!"
that's exactly how it happened to me my girlfriend and that was the same sales pitch too but my 2 seasons later needed a few days away from Netflix to process the fuckery that happend
YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO ROUTE FOR HIM WTH
mia
I’ll repeat this again and again. Just because you root for someone in a story doesn’t mean that you excuse their actions.
You can root for Joe and still recognize that he’s a terrible person
Crazy ex girlfriend has the best take on the rom com stalker tropes, redeeming Rebecca and explaining her behavior but not excusing it, can't recommend it enough
Beth
That is a perfect show.
I recently binge watched the show and I absolutely loved it!
@Beth Yeah I'm sure that's true, that's but You doesn't excuse or redeem Joe's behavior. So I find it very weird that this some people's take away from S2.
@@neosoontoretro I've never seen you so I don't really care, I just like Amanda's videos and also crazy ex girlfriend. But sera gamble's a hack so I doubt it's good lol, but let's not get into that.
@@sassafrasfruit Sera Gamble a hack? I don't know, she was involved with Supernatural and You have received mostly positive reviews so I doubt she's completely without talent. But you're right let's not get into to it.
"Joe is the bad guy that Dexter is waiting for." = why my abuse survivor ass will not watch "You". Thank you for this analogy, it's * chef's kiss *.
3:23 even if I DO let you into my house, just standing there and watching me sleep is creepy af and I wouldn’t be letting you into my house anymore if/when I find out
What happened to the whole "they dont have to be likeable, they just have to be interesting" thing
i love that these videos always come back to twilight. it's like there's a twilight conspiracy in romantic drama hollywood
So a little story on the "someone watching you sleep is creepy"
I was at a sleep over at my best friends' house for her birthday, but she had work the next morning and had to leave early. (She was 16, I was 17 or 18) but we had slept in the living room. I decided to continue sleeping but I was more just dozing. Next thing I know I turn over, open my eyes and on the other side of the room in a chair is her younger brother (around 13???) Just watching me sleep.
This scared the shit out of me and I've never been able to see him in the same light again because it creeped me out so bad.
DO NOT WATCH PEOPLE SLEEP, IT BE CREEPY
Ooooooh when I clicked on the "like" button, it went 8K. I'm proud of my action.
I mean there a loads of bad peoples out there who justify their actions by doing good things, Joe helping people and being the perfect boyfriend makes him feel good, but he still kills beck and gets over it pretty quickly
People who do horrible things sometimes do good things and can be likeable. Maybe because they made it into a show they want to wait to the very end to show how wrong he is like in the Sopranos. IDK I haven't seen the show.
@Danny Stowers Yeah, but he makes it seem like he has a code, but by the end he kills his nephew. Remember in the last season Dr. Malfy's therapist tells her he may nice to animals or his family, but he's a sociopath. She changes the way she looks at him. Obviously he's a bad guy but a lot of the audience is rooting for him as an antihero. Some one said a good villian should have a code they stick to good or bad. That's how a lot of people wrongly look at the mafia. It's hide in honor, tradition, looking out for their family, only hurting other bad guys and helping the neighborhood. By the end of the the series you see that. To me at the beginning because of his charismatic acting and having sympathy for him because of his traumatic childhood and being "forced into the life" I kinda rooted for him. I think it depends how you look at him at beginning and if you see any redeeming qualities.
I always felt bad for both beck & love in season 1-3..im gonna watch season 4 now
Everytime I look at Joe I just see Dan from Gossip Girl and that makes it sooo much funnier
Love you, I preferred the 1st session but looking forward to the 3rd if they make one. Love your vids
PASSION 76PJ thank you! I can’t imagine them not making season 3
"Joe is the bad guy that Dexter is waiting for"... The accuracy 😂😂😂
His thing with trying to 'save' the kids is supposed to be rooted in his own similar trauma as a child, so he's trying to be savior he never had as a child. However, I wish that part were communicated clearer because it is ultimately a selfish motivation.
I agree with everything apart from one thing. Love. I actually really liked the twist and it worked so well with the very last scene of season 2 to show that Joe's psychotic obsessions will never end, he'll never be satisfied. We as viewers think "Oh, it's his soul mate, she's just as fucked up as he is, she can understand him and love him despite him being a psycho". And then he immediately falls for someone else. That shows he doesn't want love, acceptance, understanding. He doesn't want to actually complete his goals. He wants to pursue endlessly.
Yes! Do 50 Shades! lol
*Watching this before I go to bed. What better thing to do with my night!! ^-^*
I think the changes can make sense if you think of it as trying to show how Joe thinks he's the hero even though he's not. Season 2 is him realizing he isn't the hero and how his 'love' killed Beck. Love is him looking into the mirror and realizing how building up women always crashes down because no one is perfect and see how delusional she is for killing for 'love.'
About how teens talk and think their partner becomes their whole world, my boyfriend once told me that am his whole world and I said, “no, I’m a part of your world, but not your whole world. I’m in your life but you have your whole life to live”
...Damn, now I wanna see a crossover episode of Dexter and You: where Dexter kills Joe who tries to justify that he's not a bad person until he's finally killed off after Dexter gives him a cold bite of reality
Why wasn’t Edward so creepy to me when I was younger.. now I’m like 😬 wtf
We're all more impressionable when we are younger.
Take it as a sign of progress and personal growth.
The problems with the show you pointed out, were the exact reason why I even couldn't finish season 1. It felt too much like they were trying to make him look like a cool, funny guy.
I've had a very complicated relationship with You since season 2 because while I can fully get behind season 1's satirical stalker boy rom-com reversal season 2's pseud-redemption worked a little TOO well i guess because I found myself rooting for the guy and was genuinely worried when he got himself into trouble (yuck). in any case, season 2's finale sent me straight back to hating his guts (in a fun way!), but it was a confusing season for me emotionally
“Joe is the guy Dexter is waiting for” loveeeeee lol so so true!!
I just found your channel but i'm liking the way you approach these movies, yes please do twilight! Also loved watching them, but they're so messed up, would love to see your take on it xD
I put a blackout curtain on my windows and started closing my bedroom door with key ( that's the only place someone can hide in my house)because of this serie, I just watched 3 episodes and stopped, I live alone and I'm already a little bit paranoid, I don't need to give me another reason to be paranoid
I'm a year late to the convo but I think the point of having Joe act like the savior for those kids was to further illustrate how he thinks he's the good guy hero of his world. He wants to protect "innocent" people from monsters while but realizing he's the monster. That's more interesting to me.
Joe is the definition of a “nice guy.” He expects an unrealistic relationship with the “perfect” Beck, and get mad at her when things don’t go the way he wants. I didn’t like the show because it made this toxic mindset look too acceptable. There’s already too many “nice guys” in the world.
PLEASE DO THE 50 SHADES MOVIES!
The way i viewed it is that Jose had an intense hero complex to further convince himself that he is good. He felt a need that “save those who can’t save themselves” and that extends to much more than the kids in the different seasons, it happens with Beck and with Love, as soon as they show that they can go on without his help he goes rampage and looses interest because he simply can’t accept that they don’t need saving. The difference with the kids is that they were actually helpless in certain situations so it makes it seem as if he has a moral code, but that’s not the case.
I think it's important to say that we can still like a character, even if we agree that they're insane and nothing they do is right or justifiable. I feel that way about Joe. Like, I'm aware in every situation that what he's doing is wrong and he's clearly the villain, but his character is absolutely amazing. It's fun watching him justify his actions and listening to his internal monologue. We rarely get see villains thoughts. I still kinda root for him even though I have no idea why, honestly I'm in it only for the murders and getting away with it.
I mean...I liked the show. I found Love being a killer too to be interesting because now he has no interest in her, and it's because he hates himself since she's just like him. However I do agree with the fact they keep seeming to justify the things he does at times? And I don't really like that part. I don't really want to feel conflicted about a serial killer like this. I like the description the book gave about how his whole life became a mess because of his obsession with her. That just makes him more creepy which is totally necessary in this instance...I should really read the book.
I think you're forgetting the genius of the screenwriting that makes the main character or "protagonist" joe relatable at times but still obviously a psycho. If anyone sees him as a victim or as an unrelatbale villian to root for are missing the complexity of the character
The season one revelation of doctor Nicky really screwed with me. Because while Joe was being obsessive and clingy and maybe a bit overreactive when he didn't have proof, he was right the whole time.
I feel like Amanda gives off those cool, chill, accepting aunt vibes, so I feel like the BAE mug that she shows us in the beginning kinda makes sense......love you Amanda. You help me laugh through my depression!
i like you because it shows how easier it is to get taken in and sympathize with a narcissist or sociopath. my vibe is that he cared for paco and ellie to justify to himself that he was good. he didn't actually care, he just needed someone to project his sense of goodness onto. joe didn't care about ellie the moment she wasn't playing into the idea that he's her savior
he's also an unreliable narrator, so we don't know how accurate his interactions with them really are
Wasn't the actor who plays Joe in gossip girl
‘You’ made me put passwords on EVERYTHING. ALL my devices because most didn’t have them. And all my passwords are different. And I privated my social media’s and actually got off a few.
At least at the end of the season 2, they show how if even the stalker finish in couple with the target, the stalker will find another obsession.
Well, we are watching the show through his eyes and reason, of course he's always the hero.
I had a friend who wanted me to watch this show, she went on to compare to the main character which was a bit heartbreaking -- this show made me uncomfortable and I disliked the main character so idk maybe I'm a freaky creepy stalking fool
I COMPLETELY agree with everything you said and it has been SO frustrating to see people root for joe, hate beck for being a human or love love not even regardless but because of her fucked up shit. THANK YOU and i wish i had seen this video sooner just to assure myself that im not the crazy one for rooting for beck to survive, for candace to get revenge and thinn that the season 2 was shit
It literally started making me feel ill halfway through the first episode and i had to turn it off half way through the second lest i throw something heavy at my television. Honestly don't know how someone could sit down and enjoy watching a show like this
I haven’t watched based on principle that I guessed this is what was going to happen with it. As a guy I think it’s toxic because there’s a lot of men who’ll hear girls romanticize these characters so they try to emulate them to gain those girls attraction which just like Joe, is not good.