160. Palestine/Israel Debate with Professor Walter Block
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 มี.ค. 2023
- Can a libertarian or anarchist support the state of Israel? In this debate, Austrian economist Walter Block argues the affirmative and makes the case for why Israel is a force for liberty, while Saifedean argues political Zionism is the socialist central planning of land ownership, and is not possible without the violation of the property of Palestinians.
PalestineRemembered.com
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Saifedean’s first book, The Bitcoin Standard:
saifedean.com/thebitcoinstandard
Saifedean’s second book, The Fiat Standard:
saifedean.com/thefiatstandard
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When defending the undefendable goes wrong
Well said sir. I do respect Walter Block but his arguments/justifications are mind-blowingly over-simplistic and emotional. I'm floored but how flimsy his arguments are, truly floored.
@@sophisticated_pleb
As a nine-year old boy in the Bergen Belsen concentration camp in Germany, my Jewish friends and I climbed over dead bodies in the bitter cold as we awaited our fate at the hands of the Nazis.
Anne Frank and her family were in Bergen Belsen at the same time. I was one of the lucky ones who got out. Ms. Frank famously did not.
@@alainportant6412 So you are 90 years old?
@@alainportant6412 How did you get out?
Saif is a savage. I am not Palestinian or Jew but the intellectual honesty of Saif was just perfect as always, listening to his opponent was sickening at best...
The views defended by professor Block (that Ottoman property rights are invalid, but that thousands of year old Jewish property rights presumably found at archaeological sites are valide, and that Jews are therefore justified to seize land owned by arabs) are preposterous and nonsensical. No wonder discussion in the middle east is so difficult.
The same goes for the argument that civilians fleeing a war zone are complicit of the attackers. By the same logic, civilians currently fleeing the north of Gaza are complicite with the Israelis bombing them. Complete nonsence.
It is shoking that a professor can hold such untenable views.
I’m not convinced by the argument that Jews inhabited that land 2,000 years ago. How can any Jew trace their lineage back that far and identify which specific land their ancestor owned? Seems ludicrous.
Or prove that they didn't willingly leave their homes... Yeah, we can't fill in the blanks with assumptions. And two wrongs don't make a right
It’s hardly an “argument” in any sense.
Apparently the statute of limitations does not apply when it favors the jews.
There is an overwhelmingly large amount of archaeological and historical evidence placing Jews in the area of Israel going back 3,000 years. Entire libraries and museums are replete with it.
What the hell difference does it make from an anarchist perspective and more specifically an anarcho capitalist one, which is what this debate is meant to be about? How does "jews used to live here" justify the existence of a theocratic state in the context of private property rights?
21:21 So, by this logic, when the meteorologist warns you of an oncoming hurricane coming and you leave your home to avoid potential risk of life, your neighbors who stay can claim your property while you're away?
No, that means your country lost the war 😆
@@benabraham2783 Maybe, but Israel has always had the backing of the biggest baddies on the block - the U.S. Without all the money and weapons from the U.S. since 1948, do you think any of their wars have been a fair fight? It's like a couple kids having fight and one of them has their daddy join in.
I have been waiting for this for years
there are more vids of walter on israel
@@yahavitah2791 Not sure I'd be interested in hearing them.
Walter is on Israel like Tony Montana was on coke. 😂
“If somebody punches me, I own his house now. That’s property rights.”
“John Locke says you have to work the land. That’s property rights. And if you work it first that counts. Even if you fuck off for 2000 years. As long as you worked it first. Basically lick all the cookies in the cookie bowl. That’s property rights. Oh and the Bible must be an historically accurate record because…reasons”
This was a joke.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Block is off his Block. Totally unaware of his hyposcrisy, or totally disingenuous. He could justify anything if it was to his percieved benefit.
@@brushstroke3733 I'm afraid it might be worse. He might very well be aware of his hypocrisy but he doesn't care because it benefits him.
taken as slaves = 'fuck off for 2000 years' and there was also always a Jewish presence.
Even with this logic wasn't Canaanite land which they conquer
Saifedean I’m non Zionist Jew and I just want to say thank you for not being afraid to say the truth without fear of retaliation
Based debate
Claiming that Palestine was "empty" before the settlers is bullshit
The same crap applied to South Africa. There’s tribes like the Xhosa and the Sans which occupied the southern tip of the continent and were in fact acknowledged by the early Dutch merchants and settlers in the 17th century.
@@fairplayer7435 No South Africa was empty
@@fairplayer7435 To be fair, SA was, in fact, empty OF FARMERS and MINERS. The whites were the ones that developed the land.
Saifedean, I am a Christian here in Texas. I thank you for being so knowledgeable and well spoken on this topic. I find it hard to believe Professor Block unironically holds some of the positions he espoused here. The very fact that one of his foundations was at the very beginning of the debate, the use of Bible/Torah as a way to claim that Jews owned the land first, was incredible (not in a good way). I loved your rebuttal of it stating the good prof has no way of using these texts as a way to place ownership of any particular person and/or group. In fact if he is gonna use this as a foundation I can easily crack it by informing him the Jews were stripped of their ownership of the land by God himself. Anyways, thanks again for posting this and thank you for all your work.
Hey, I'm also in Texas and a Christian. Israel lost my support a few years ago when I saw a video of their police throwing a grenade into a mosque. Imagine if someone did that in your church. It's despicable.
I am a Christian and I also completely agree with you. A Libertarian should not be using the Bible as proof of any rights.
Block went to the Bible for justification of Jewish land claims. However, when I read the Bible it clearly states that the Israelites took the land from the Canaanites. Who does Block think was behind the walls of Jericho anyway-ghosts? It is a cheap trick to pick one arbitrary point in history and claim that this point is sacrosanct. 2000+ years of a Jewish diaspora does not give them the right to expel 800K Palestinians from their homes. But we can clearly identify those that were expelled by 1948 and their descendants, which makes the modern day Israeli claim a non starter.
This is not a bible thing, this is acknowledged by every mainstream historian and is backed by other ancient texts. There's 0 doubt that Israel was inhabited by jews at least 2000 years ago, we roman artifacts coraborating that, we have the Koresh declaration from 2500 thousand years ago that was found, that allows the jews to go back to Israel after the Babylonian exile.
So denying the jews has the most ancient and known claims to the land of israel is simply pure anti-semitism
@@vinvinvino3176 But human rights are God given and therefore it's appropriate to use Scripture imo. I agree with Ryan though.
Have loved both of you for years and years and will for years to come- just came across your debate a day or so ago- thanks so much
Saifedean crushed it here
You the man Saife!!! Bismillah!!
"Just behave and you'll have a better life."
What a phenomenally dishonest, simplistic statement for Block to make.
Almost like
"Just pay taxes because the government will crush you if you don't resistance is futile"
20:30 24:33 That Netanyahu quote could have been spoken by Darth Vader himself. We would have peace in the galaxy if only those pesky rebels would give up their weapons.
It’s actually true. Israel has tried to make peace with Palestinians several times. Palestinians have chosen terror instead.
@@JJRfromNYC Sure they have. Under what conditions? What is Israel prepared to concede, if anything? Palestine wants a two state solution (independence to govern themselves.) Has Israel ever said it would agree to anything like that? Again, Darth Vader offered peace to the rebels if they would only agree to join the empire.
@@brushstroke3733 OK Mr Star Wars fan, the force is with you in your make believe fantasies, but reality is not. You have google. Palestinians have refused a state several times in history. The most viable time was when Barak and Arafat met with Clinton at Camp David. The Israelis offered them everything they wanted. Clinton said he bent over backwards to get the Palestinians everything. Arafat refused, went back to his multimillion dollar compound in Ramallah, and launched the second intifada. Other than that, they’ve been offered peace many times before and since. They don’t want a country. Let that sink in. They don’t want a country. They want there to be no Israel. People keep thinking of Palestinian society as a normal society. It is not. Neither is Syria. Neither is Iran. Neither is North Korea.
That is it. Once you view things in this context, things make more sense. Palestinians just simply don’t want a country. So they stay like they are. Their leaders are billionaires. They create financial incentives for terrorism instead of a normal economy. And they never take responsibility for themselves. They only blame Israel.
@@brushstroke3733 Many, many times - they gave them the Gaza strip in return for peace. The dispute originates from Mohamed's words - once a nation has been occupied by Islam it is never to be controlled by any other....(not verbatim)
@@andieb8230 I concede you those good arguments. 👍
I would call Saif's opponent an intellectual hypocrite.
It's just especially baffling because Walter Block is supposedly such a pure anarcho capitalist and the resolution of this debate was supposed to be in the context of that ideology but none of the arguments he put forth had anything to do with anarcho capitalism or property rights, it was all typical zionist points.
@@resmartedYeah I think you call that a lack of consistency based on the complete lack of integration of one's views on different topics.
Not saying it's easy or will ever reach perfection. But he seems completely blind to it.
Walter's logic of suggesting Palestinians should stop fighting even if the property rights are on their side because they're going to lose is not so different from the Israeli settlers' logic that the Palestinian families should give up their homes because some other settlers are going to take them anyway. You can't argue with the tribe using logic, at the end of the day it comes back to my people vs yours. Moustached painter from Austria realised this a long time ago. All this libertarian reasoning sounds a little ridiculous when the real issue here is identity, particularly ethnic identity.
Oi vey
The libertarian reasoning would solve the identitarian nonsense, because you'd voluntarily choose where to live and with whom to trade. if you don't like me, you don't have to trade with me. The best price wins, I don't care about your skin tone or religion.
@@pierrebitcan have you noticed that with libertarianism we always end up with these hypotheticals? Yes, if everyone were on the same page ideologically, a lot of problems would go away (and the specific unifying ideology is secondary). Realistically, only about 5-10% of people are predisposed to be libertarians and that varies by society. Ethnic and religious identity and economic class are much more viable ways of determining the in and out groups and that's likely never going to change.
The real issue is active ethnic cleansing
@@ntsklyou are right on "they end up always being hypothetical", good remark. but liberals (including republicans) and socialists (including democrats) - 90%/95% - are even more hypotheticals. So please help the libertarians, as they are less hypotheticals.
Saifidean is such a great speaker.
No, this debate didn't change my opinion. I stand firm with Saif and he easily won this debate. For a great read on the subject, check out Alison Weir's excellent book: AGAINST OUR BETTER JUDGEMENT: The Hidden History of how the US was Used to create Israel. It's an eye-opener for those still 'stuck' on these issues.
Thank You both for the his fantastic debate.
Professor Walter block needs new lenses
If land isn’t important how can 1 of the main justifications be based on what someone wrote in a book about so called events that happened 2000 years ago?
You nailed it man
Walter's first 15 min was just whataboutism not him responding to any points, sad!
Can’t imagine the dumpster fire that his book must be after listening to his incoherent “main argument”. The other guy must have wrote the book.
@@Handle35667 there were no Africans in South africa 😂 so who did the Portuguese fight?
Saifedean needs to go on Piers Morgan. Haven't heard a more impressive about the property rights around the conflict. Saifedean is a weapon.
"Our book is full of it" - Walter Block, 2023
Damn, what a high level debate. ❤
No, not high level. Substandard on both sides.
01:04:41 Aaaahhh the scent of colonialist-supremacist condescension. 🌺 🤤
Why take responsibility for your actions if you can give those negatively affected by your actions advice on how not to provoke more such actions.
I'm sure he has the best of intentions.
#SchwarzePädagogik
You totally missed the point. Good job.
@@martyr84 what point was missed?
Ramadan mubrak Saife!
Omg, Walter was my hero, before I came across this.
Just skipping parts where Walter is talking. Yes, it came to this. Sorry Walter, not interested in your hasbara. Actually not sorry.
1:02:05 1:02:53 as joe biden said: if we didn't have israel we would simply create one
The US and UK did.
@@wl5609 Yep, makes you wonder who's really calling shots doesn't it.....
It is great to know that Walter Block would support returning all of the stolen indigenous land in the United States to indigenous tribes. Perhaps that can be his next book project.
give it back to the turks! they managed it well for 1000 years
Not from the perspective of a Jew it wasn't.
Walter begging for Saifedean to stop at the end as he dominates them lol
One thing I do like about Block's logic is that it justifies my descendants violently seizing property from the US government thousands of years in the future because they violently seized "taxes" from me. This works for me... Descendants (and your AI's that find this) - get as much as you can!
It's ironic that the FED and IRS are dongulous appendages of the banking kabbalah, so you would most likely be taking out your frustrations on members of Block's tribe. America was founded on Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. It's the same people who are taking away these human freedoms for those in Palestine as well.
Great debate. Chomsky and Roger Waters made me aware decades ago abou the situation in Palestine. I went there few times and it is worse that I ever imagined.
51:42 It's called self-awareness and transparency.
I completely agree with the one of the last speaker, Walter Block was very disapointing when it comes to practical cases of defending libertarian ideas.
His example about the martians attack imposing a choice to defend his point was totally offchart, it's just a made up context to try to justificate cowardness and malfeasance.
Let me try to demolish his point :
If the martians ask you to kill someone, there are 2 cases : First they are not that strong and just using you as a puppet to kill other humans, once you kill one what stops you to kill 10, 100 or 1 million ? You're just playing someone else's game and when you make a pact with the devil you will only make more. The only thing you accomplished is becoming the humanity first ennemy while the martians didn't even have to dirt their hands.
We saw that in history already, when invaders use locals to attack the other locals like when the Spanish invaded what is now mexico, locals helped the Spanish thinking the red hair guy was their mythological god and they ended up with armies of Indigenuous fighting alongside the Spanish army against their own poeple.
The second possibility : they really are that strong and not bluffing and they are just toying with humanity. Do you really believe killing an other human will help ? If that type of Martians exist and they only need a button to explode evrything.
While you become their bitch and you think you've saved anyone, they can kill all humanity even if you obey. You could even desobey and in the end they can always decide to not do anything anyway !! It would be a test, a bad mood or bad whatever you want who cares nobody predicts the futur that's why values are above everything. That's why you never betray humanity, you never know what can happen.
Mister Walter Block, you just revealed your moral and proved that ppl can't trust you. Someday someone might need your integrity and you'll betray him thinking you're doing more good than bad, the same who betrayed ppl under communism thinking they were only doing their job.
History has always shawn sacrificing the way over the end has produced the worse kind of horror we have seen and you just agreed with it.
I agree that there is a very slippery slope in his Martian argument. But in your argument you assume that the all-powerful Martians can act randomly and do anything they want. Let's assume instead of Martians it is a natural process that is threatening to kill all humanity (e.g. virus) and you have to kill one person to stop it. Would that change your view? Because it is much more reasonable to see the state of Israel as a mostly rational, predictable actor (optimizing their mid/longterm outcomes within the bounds of international treaties and trade) than to assume that it could randomly do any thing in its power (like genocide).
@@sucimIsreal has been disregarding the UN, and I wouldn't put it past them to try to claime the Gaza strip itself.
His martian example is fine. "First they are not that strong and just using you as a puppet to kill other humans" The point of the hypothetical is to assume they do have the capability and can do that, would you kill 1 person to make sure that earth does not get blown up by like the death star or something. If you don't kill him then that person dies anyways as the planet is blown up the guy also won't live any longer either. Would you kill him? Well Walter Block says he would and that he should be punished for it.
There are 3 critical questions that need to be asked:
WHAT defines property ownership? WHO defines property ownership? How does a person or community establish legal ownership over a piece of land?
However important the 3 answers may be, what is more important is that the: We as Humans must stop to the forceful removal of people from land and allow the for free market system to dictate the purchasing of land.
This was a very interesting debate however there are a few factual inaccuracies…
The original/first people of South Africa are the Kio San, a nomadic group of people who lived mainly on the far west of Southern Africa. The Southeastern part of the country was later occupied by Angolan / Congolese Africans they are known as Zulus. When both the Dutch and English Settlers arrived, they occupied land forcefully until the they rebelled against their own governments to claim independence after that they bought/traded for land which was occupied by both the Kio San and the Zulus, however the new settlers had a technology advantage over the Kio San and the Zulus which they used to their advantage just like every other civilization has done throughout history.
Reestablish the crusader states
Problem solved
Q&A at 1:14:55.
Dutch were first in SA?! Wrong.
The history of South Africa is complex and involves multiple waves of migration and settlement. Indigenous peoples, often referred to collectively as "black Africans," have inhabited the region for thousands of years. These indigenous groups include the Khoisan (who are believed to be among the earliest inhabitants), Bantu-speaking peoples, and others.
The first Europeans to arrive in South Africa were the Portuguese in the late 15th century, followed by the Dutch in the mid-17th century. The Dutch established the first permanent European settlement in South Africa in 1652 when the Dutch East India Company established a refreshment station at the Cape of Good Hope, primarily to provide provisions for Dutch ships traveling to and from the Dutch East Indies (present-day Indonesia).
So, while indigenous peoples were already living in the region for thousands of years, the Dutch were the first Europeans to establish a permanent settlement in what is now South Africa.
1:04:25 - 1:05:13 this is his bottom line, his real stance on this, his real ideology on this matter
They cry out in pain as they strike you.
The Palestinian people have suffered more from the ill-advised decisions of their leaders than from the actions of Israel. The suffering of Palestinians, which does not compare to the suffering of many other groups, has been largely inflicted by themselves. They have rejected offers of statehood, responding with violence and terrorism, because doing so would have required them to accept Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, something they are unwilling to do even today.
@@thorarthur66ddz yeah open air prison in gaza... settled westbank
@thorarthur66ddz the Isreali State has worked to undermine a two State solution, including backing Hamas to that end.
Everyone believes in their own point of view, But the downfall of humanity is that we can not all believe in each others point of view peacefully.
25:29 While it is sickening that Hamas uses schools and hospitals as places to store weapons and from which to launch attacks, it makes sense tactically, by Block's own admission (22:25 - Israel completely outclasses and overpowers their neighbors militarily, thanks in large part to the United States.) Asking them to fight "fairly" by Israel's standards is like telling a 40 lb girl fighting a 250 lb adult man that she can only use kicks and punches above the belt to defend herself (or even to attack with, if you want to say she is the aggressor.) Block's arguments are disconnected and inconsistent.
what's more sickening is militant zionists purposely targeting children, schools and hospitals (i don't have problem with jews or zionists just militant zionists)
Using your own example, the 40lb girl can and should use all her abilities to fight, but you can’t the third party as a shield to fight.
@redrunkbull the man also can't plow through the third party kids.
God bless the Palestine 🇵🇸 🙏 🙌 ♥️
1:08:16 this is cowardly. Remember war isn’t always anarchic chaos, death & destruction
Yeah but it's like paying taxes, is giving in and paying taxes cowardly? Resisting government's attempts to rob you will lead to you having overwhelming force used against you and you'll get crushed. You are better off paying taxes than not and getting crushed by the government. It's not right but there's not much you can do about that.
I'm ignorant when it comes to politics, what did Saifedean mean by privatization of Israel?
Read For a New Liberty by Murray Rothbard and you'll understand.
He was probably emphasizing how there is no private property in Israel, especially with the land. People aren't allowed to sell to Palestinians, I guess - racist statist dictators decide who gets what land. Presumably "privatized" land ownership would at least begin to give Palestinians hope of coexisting there.
12:30 - I'm a white South African who grew up during apartheid. Even we learned at school that the Khoikhoi people were already living in the Cape when the first Europeans got there. Prof. Walter Block manages to destroy his credibility within seconds of opening his mouth.
Way to go Saifedean !!
I'll notice that Block never refuted Pappe's facts, he only tried to attack his credibility, by a quote out of context.
It's a pity that Saifedean never brought Jeremy Hammond up, he's a libertarian and a defender of the Palestinian cause.
Yeah or even someone who works at the same institute as him (libertarian institute) sheldon richman.
He didn't have to. Pappe discredited himself by admitting he was using facts for ideological purposes. That's biased history, not objective history.
@@benabraham2783 oh nice so you know he was referring to his postmodernist ideology you know the thing that makes him believe that truth is subjective and facts only tell a perspective. Which basically explains that his message was taken out of context when you consider that the average belief of postmodernists is that objective truth isn't real. It's not that he's trying to frame the facts into a narrative that isn't objectively true its that he basically interprets the facts and has his own truth. Not to say I agree with the ideology but the least you could do is provide the context to what he's saying and how he fundamentally views truth in a different way than the average Layman. Or how the average Austrian economicist/anarcho-capitalist would view truth, which would be axiomatically. (he also doesn't believe objective history exists. Even if the claims of what your saying or what he's saying are true it wouldn't make it objective it would still be subjective because they interpret history and all that crap.)
@@the_future_is_anarchy1791 Yeah, that's called framing. Instead of framing, there's the idea of presenting multiple points of view and letting the reader decide for themselves. Postmodernists are typically leftist and anticapitalist in orientation by the way.
@@the_future_is_anarchy1791 Pretty sure Dr. Thomas Sowell has been against such postmodernist "spin" on economics and history.
I'm here from Doug Casey's Take [ep.#265]
Seems the root problem, a dispute shared all over the world, is exactly who owned what in the 1st place. And with many difficult questions, people will have different opinions and variable information from which to formulate their opinions. Very difficult stuff
Kinda seems like something private property rights would best sort out but Walter "Privatize Everything" Block doesn't agree.
@@resmarted somehow the state of israel is the exception to the rule for Walter
Well said. The truth is that the whole world is communal property and no one owns squat. Private ownership of land is always conferred upon the citizens by the ruling monarch or government, but ultimately, they claim it all. But again, no one really owns anything. It's all a legal conceit, a concept in the imagination of men. The ants and worms have just as much right to this land as we do. And they have just as much right to the air, water, minerals, sunlight, etc. People are childishly foolish.
It is not difficult at all, we know for certain who owned it for centuries before the Zionists expelled Palestinians from their land, we can often point to identifiable persons and their offspring, most of them being Palestinian Arab Muslims and Christians. And even if Jews owned it in the past, it doesn't mean anyone who claims to be Jewish now has a right to evict Palestinians. Also if a Jew living in Palestine converted to Islam or Christianity in the past, like many did, why should their rights to the land become forfeit in favor of an Israeli Jew?
@@resmarted why isn’t West Bank or Gaza privatized for that matter?
Eris, the goddess of discord had many children. Walter is no longer one of them
Genuine question, maybe someone can enlighten me? Prof. Block to me seems European like many a Jew, does he have any semitic ancestry? Or did his ancestors convert to Judaism? If so what connection to Israel do Jews like himself have beyond their religion starting there? Can all Christians offer a claim on the land? The first Christians came from there.
Very astute observation. I do believe Mr. Richmond uses this point as well that there are many CONVERTS of Judaism in Europe and there is a difference between them and the Semitic Jews
If I remember correctly, the lineage of biblical jews were eradicated. The lineage of modern jews dates to a group that appropriated the culture and religion.
As a nazi I can confirm he has the phenotypical traits that were persecuted in ww2 Germany.
You're not allowed to bring up relevant points that undermine his whole position! It's his land because he identifies with it being his land - if he feels it, then that is his reality, and his reality is all that matters to him. You were supposed to be confused by his mishmash of incoherent babbling and smoke screen of nonsense! 😂
I just converted to seminolism and want to take over the Jewish owned mansions in Boca Raton Florida… based on Jewish justification in Palestine I should be able to do it in Boca… right?
What is that difference? Explain it to me. If their RELIGION is Judaism, tell us what the difference is. You people make it up as you go along. I know tons of people who ascribe to the Judaic religion. From all different countries and cultures.@@ryanunknown4181
Did Walter seriously actually try to argue that Saifedean and his ancestors had no land, that they were living in swamps? O_O Embarrassing tribalism.
(And oh the delicious irony, I guess lost on him, when he was ad homineming that Palestinian historian. Because multi-thousand year fiction is totally objective! (Even though dna evidence seems to suggest european jews may not even have come from there.))
1:06:26 Does anyone know what he’s referríng to when he says “Just like the blacks are engaging in a very bad path” ? I genuinely have no idea
I would assume stuff like fighting for reparations/justice when there's no possible way to track accountability from slaves/slaveowners to this day. Also the fact that under the cause of racial justice black people overwhelmingly vote for policies that end up harming their community even more (Democrat policies)
its a very slimy and condescending way of saying that palestinians need to "just behave" and putting the blame on them for their misfortunes.
BLM
@@dementeparker If we actually tried to track accountability of slave ownership, we would find that jews are the main culprits, that is why there is no political will to do so, it might be/is done by pinning the blame on white people.
I could put together a very long list of guesses
Don’t know how you got through that without exploding. Maybe though some crazy mythical way it travelled though the TV lens into me to do it for you, I was exploding at Blocks insane BS
"Waltuh"
I used to know a Palestinian - she told me that her family still keeps the key to their house that was stolen from them.
It is a pity that you don't used to know any Jews whose families were mass expelled and many killed from Arab countries. There were more of them than Arabs who left Israel. I am sure some of these Jewish families also still keep the key to their houses that were stolen from them.
@@alexgraf8862 two wrongs don't make a right
@@fusion9619 You cannot look at such "exchange" without historical perspective. Such "exchanges" were a completely normal and widespread situation of stopping a lot of bloodshed after WWII and then after the collapse of the British Empire. Expulsion of the Germans from Check Republic, Poland, East Prussia etc., expulsion of Japanese from their "north territories", "exchange" between Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan after division of India and on and on... dozens of millions of displaced people, magnitudes more than in Mandatory Palestine. What is so special in this specific "exchange" that Israel should be singled out? Why is there no such universal cry for the return of houses to the Germans, Japanese, Indians, Italians, Hungarians, Armenians and Greeks... and the same Jews (exiled from Arab/Muslim countries) who were expelled or found themselves under "occupation"?
@@alexgraf8862 What's your point? The commenter didn't say they don't know any cases of that. Are you just going to ignore the commenter's point? What do you think should be done about that stolen house?
Cool story bro. Lots of Jewish families still have the photos hanging in frames of their loved ones butchered by Nazi's and Arabs in the 30s and 40s.
This didnt age well
Zionism is ethno-nationalism but its the GOOD kind
It is only good when (((WE))) do it.
I probably would have been very nationalistic and agreed with political zionism in my home country of Israel if throughout the last 2000 years the majority of the people on the land were Jews, the fact that this was not the case means I can not claim the whole land or justify the zionism that manifested, although there are different paths to zionism that maybe I could still agree with.
@42:42
is walter block the voice of winnie the pooh?
Block is so obviously wrong and misinformed on this issue it almost makes me believe that none of the intellectual work he did before is valid
That guy makes very Lil sense
It could the wrong combination of meds he's taking. 💊💊💊
900,000 Jews were kicked out of their homes in 1948 in Tunisian, Algeria, Morocco, Jordan, and Egypt. They had nowhere to go but Israel. When, Saifedean, can we expect them to get their land back? And would using terrorism be justified to get their family land back? Would Saifedean call this "ethnic cleansing"?
All those places you mentioned already have Jewish citizens in some shape or other. When the wars ended and prejudice went out of fashion, many returned. Just as there’s now a sizeable Jewish population in Germany today.
You get to steal someone's home when you get kicked out? Great Palestinians get your and Blocks house now.
2-State-Soluton started in May 25, 1946 by first step, when the palestinian arabs received from the British Mandate for Palestine all of Trans-Jordan and established the Kingdom of Jordan. Today „West Bank“ (Judah,Shomron) is legaly Jewish Land and should be reunited asap with the State of Israel due to 1922 San Remo ruling of the League of Nations.
Can’t imagine the dumpster fire that his book must be after listening to his incoherent “main argument”. The other guy must have wrote the book.
You should of just let them speak normally at the end without the judicator butting in.
Using Ilan Pappe as his main source of wrong info, totally gave Saifedean the L here.
"we should cut this out" lol Big L
@1:03:55 Why does he use blacks as an example when it’s not the same thing, both Africans & African Americans? And what does he mean or what is he referring to by just behave?
Hypothetically speaking, if all the Arab nations got together and conquered Palestine (as the US empire is collapsing), would Walter still offer that advice to "just behave/obey" the new rulers? Or would he continue bitching, eternally, about how he's a victim, how his land was stolen, how that crime will never be forgotten, and will be avenged asap ;)
Saif was the victor, the Walter was....slippery... in his arguments. Thank you for that.
From a classical liberal view.
5 min later
Give in to injustice if do not resist its better than you
So much for john locke view
The fact that the Israelis paid for the land and thereby acknowledged the property right settles the entire discussion. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors
That's right. Israelis or Israeli entities have the majority of land titles/ownership in Israel. The "Palestinian" Arabs have Gaza and rule by Hamas.
@@benabraham2783 These land transfers were obviously fraudulent. The sellers did not own the land. In most cases, no one from their family had even been to the land in question, much less ever collected any rent on it FORR CENTURIES - but still claim that they "own" it. Put down the crack pipe.
I could sell you title to the White House. Would that mean that you could charge rent to the current inhabitants? Try it, see what happens. This is very near to what happened in Israel/Palestine.
Block has become a joke, just because you win a fight with someone, even if they started the fight first, doesn't give you a right to their house or land! Like seriously, WTF is wrong with this guy. Zero respect for him now, if you want to learn libertarianism stick to Hoppe and Tom Woods guys.
I came into this siding strongly with Saifedean but Walter had good arguments. Saifedean shouldn't have continued when he did at around one hour ten minutes. He committed a foul which gave points to Walter. I'm not so strongly on Saifedean's side anymore, but still lean more with him. I suppose that would mean Walter "won" but not strongly since he didn't convince me completely but did sway me some.
What good point do you remember Walter making?
21:03 Walter Block wouldn't last 10 minutes against Doug/Douglas Casey in a physical altercation between them🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😅😄. Douglas Casey would win against Walter Block in such altercations 100% of the time because he's a Gael☘☘☘ 🤣😂😅😄
Here is footage in support of what the Professor stated - they were ordered to leave by the Jordanian military. (not sure why you say it has been 'debunked' - have you got evidence?). th-cam.com/video/JxfJxuOWAz0/w-d-xo.html
Zhirinovsky < Saifedean
21:04 what a stupidly hypocritical analogy
Lol this Walter Block guy is a wild boy hey... That is the craziest presentation I've heard, it literally took me back to the 80's literature on this subject. We have new historians, even pro israel historians like Benny Morris, read him and come back and listen to this presentation again, you'll get it and have a major laugh 😂🤣
Walter’s arguments here are truly ridiculous. I lean pro Israel but “there was no property violated because it was a swamp” is straight up stupid and the part comparing wanting blacks to behave and Palestinians to behave is both unnecessary and disgusting
A "Muslim" is, in a literal translation, a "man of Islam" (or "person of Islam"). It is someone who attempts to live by the philosophy of Islam. A Muslim is a person- Islam is a socio-political system. It’s the ideas that concern me. It is the so-called "radical Muslims" that concerns me.
Muslims are not a race.
There are black Muslims, white Muslims, yellow Muslims, brown Muslims- every sort of race is represented. (Hey, Cat Stevens is a freakin' Muslim! ) Therefore "racist" cannot apply. Islam is more than just "a religion.”
Fundamentally, it is a full-blown socio-economic system that requires integration of church and state - it requires the law of the land to be the law of the religion. Those laws are from the Dark Ages, and the result is pure “statism” of a theocratic nature.
Regardless of the people who choose to follow it - and to what extent they choose to follow this religion - it is the IDEAS of Islam (not the people) that are contemptible and universally deplorable.
what a clown the Walter Block
I read your books and found them very enlightening and refreshing
Listening to this episode of your podcast and all the misrepresentations of the land history and the Israeli zionist project making me doubt your other points of view of political matters
I understand your background and the point of view that comes naturally with it
But it doesn’t fit your economic publications to make such one sided observations of a situation much more complex with roots far back into the history of the world and of the area and ignoring the historical connection of the jewish people to this land (that even mentioned in the koran) the facts that there was always a jewish community in Israel and that jewish people where forcefully driven out of Arab countries around Israel and from Europe and given sanctuary in this land by the world only to be attacked by all Arab countries around Israel repeatedly and still does while trying to lend a had for peace and developing the area and the Arab people in it and contributing to education and health care even to countries that at war with it
Relax your nose Binyamin. A vague 2000 year old connection does not give you the right to conquer their land. You jews like to pretend we don't want to allow you a jewish nation, but all you wold have to do is build the nation instead of conquering it. With all the money you have plundered as ww2 reparations, you would have more than enough funds to do so. No wonder you hate Germany so much, ww2 might be the first time jews had to do manual labor, which you consider suitable only for cattle/goyim.
Maybe Alison Weir's book, AGAINST OUR BETTER JUDGEMENT could help explain this to you...
Or Abby Martin?
The entire history of the world is full of one group,of people conquering and taking land from another. No group is special in this regard. The Persians did it, the Egyptians did it, the Greeks did it, the Romans did it, the Mayans did it, the Aztecs did it, the Inca did it, the Chinese did it, the Mongolians did it, the Arabs did it, the Zulus did it, the Russians did it, the French did it, the Spanish did it, the Portuguese did it, the English did it, the Germans did it, the Americans did it, the Israelis did it. Etc.
Tribal and national identities are silly, empty, and foolish. It's like being identified with your favorite football team and fighting fans of a "rival" team. Nothing really belongs to anyone. The whole world is every organism's to share and use. No one owns the air, but we all use it. No one owns the sun, but we all use it. Private property is a concept used by some people to take and possess and covet for themselves that which belongs as much to the ants and worms and flies and fungi as it does to anyone else.
Come out of your foxhole. Let go of your fear. Live and let live. We all must die no matter how much we take and "possess". There is NO security but the recogonition that ultimately, all is lost already, so there is nothing to lose. Nothing to fear. You're here for an instant and then you're not. Enjoy your instant instead of fighting for more and never getting to enjoy peace.
Shalom. 🙏
Isreal seizing land in its founding was an act of aggression: attacking Isreal was defensive.
There has to be a statute of limitations on crime because you could go back before recorded history with some group seizing land from some other group.
For that matter the people actually living in the region befor Isreal may be cloawr genetically to the old Isrealites than the people swarming in from first world countries.
Nobody is saying Jews shouldn't have their own country. Not even Hamas. Not sure what your point is, or what your disagreement is. You think it was okay to ethnically cleanse "those swamp people" (Saife's relatives)?
51:46 He's a post modernist he's conveying to the reader the subjectivity of his stance and the facts presented that's why he is saying he isn't a truth seeker because truth is subjective from a postmodernist perspective. His focus isn't where you'd like it because he's conveying this information through that lense. How fair would it be to take what Walter said out of context without including or referring to his ideology. I remember a serten someone getting really upset that they were accused of being in favor of slavery. The media that published that half baked truth didn't provide the philosophical frame work from where you were coming from when they published that accusation. They didn't provide the entire context of the conversation or the scenario to properly frame what is actually being said and what you actually believe.
I just changed my view on this. Using the libertarian lens, my previous 'neutral' position makes zero sense now.
Walter's argument is very weak, because it's not rooted in any serious ethics or deeper philosophy. It's merely pragmatic. He's basically saying, Israel made the place better, and have better weapons, so suck it up and go along with your new masters, for your own good. That's not an ethical position. Imagine if we said that to Jews in any other country, or to indigenous minorities. Here are some perks. Behave, or else.
I agree that the Palestinians should not be sending missiles in, and I'm no fan of Hamas because their tactics are vile. But Israel acquired those lands through state sanctioned violence initially, not through voluntary transactions, and there is loads of evidence that they evicted millions from their lands.
That is fundamentally socialism and antithetical to any libertarian ideals. When an authoritarian system is installed on your land, the only response at your disposal is street violence. Regardless of how we feel about the martyr culture, or the muslim religion, it is clear that Israel dominates through state funded force. A libertarian cannot, in good conscience, support this Zionism. It should also be noted that both Muslims and Christians live in the West Bank and are oppressed under Israeli force to this day. I've seen it with my own eyes during my time there. This is a 2-tier authoritarian society, not a free libertarian state.
Like Walter Block said, this problem is the government's fault
I like Walter, and had the pleasure of meeting him at a Ron Paul institute event, but he is wrong on this subject.
As a noob at this subject, let’s assume Israel actually did steal the land, which of course Israel will deny, what happens next? Just more of the same back and forth fighting for a few more decades until all the people that are connected to the 1940s are all long gone? Then the anger cools off decade after decade?
Let’s assume Israel admits they stole the land. What now? Do the supporters of Palestine expect the people of Israel to give it back? That’s never going to happen.
This is a sucky situation for supporters of Palestine. IMO, their best path forward is to take the land back by force (which is no good now IMO because it has been 90 years and it’s not the same people involved anymore). Or do like Walter Block says which is to recognize the injustice and build wealth and improve the status of the Palestinians.
I agree that ethical property rights is homesteading by being the first to mix your labor with the land. But ultimately, the only property that is yours is what you can defend.
Nope support BDS
@@skp8748 bds?
@@qrzupsjohnson707 Boycott, Divest, Sanction. (As an AnCap, I can't support Sanction.)
And why is this on a Bitcoin entitled podcast?
Oren Kessler's "Palestine 1936: The Great Revolt and the Roots of Middle East Conflict" and Benny Morris's "1948: The First Arab-Israeli War" are required reading to provide historical context to this debate.
Did I hear you correctly that you insinuated that Jewishness is just a belief system? You deny the fact that Jewishness is an ethnicity? The sad thing is very few of your followers will do any further research/fact checking - including Foster Gamble.......
How is an Ethiopia, Iranian, Chinese, Pole and Moroccan ethnically related 😂
@@skp8748 It would depend whether they were ethnically (DNA) Jewish or if they had converted to Judaism at some point - there is a difference.
@@skp8748 from chatGTP - 'Jewishness can refer to both an ethnicity and a belief system, as Judaism encompasses both religious and cultural practices.
From an ethnic perspective, Jewishness can refer to people who trace their ancestry to the ancient Israelites, and who may share common genetic and cultural traits. However, it's important to note that there is also significant diversity within the Jewish community, and not all Jews necessarily share the same ancestry or cultural practices.
From a religious perspective, Jewishness refers to the beliefs and practices of Judaism, which is one of the world's oldest monotheistic religions. Judaism is based on the belief in one God, as well as a rich body of religious teachings, rituals, and traditions.
Ultimately, Jewishness is a complex and multifaceted concept that encompasses both ethnic and religious dimensions, as well as cultural and historical elements.'
@@andieb8230 what's the ethnic market for a jew? Is it a mtdna or ydna
I’m late to this debate but Hoppe’s recent (shameful) takedown of Block arose my attention.
I don’t know what debate people watched here but the comments suggest Ammous won the debate hands down. That is definitely not the case!
Ammous at the outset says he is “biased” in the Palestinian direction and shows it by coming out with venom against Block (red flag!).
Block clearly says he is debating from the classical liberal stance. He does also say that the region would be better if it was anarchocapitalist = negates Ammous final question to Block about privatising Israel.
Ammous claims the Jews have no historical property rights. He fails to mention that the Jews purchased a substantial amount of the land which is now Israel from Arabs. The rest of Israel was given to the Jews by the British under the UN resolution of Mandatory Palestine. Half of Mandatory Palestine given to Arabs.
How can Ammous question this action by the British when the Ottomans did exactly the same thing for the Arabs some few hundred years before!
He wants his cake and to eat it also. Unjust!
Nonetheless the Jews agreed on the partition. The Arabs rejected and invaded Israel. And have been trying to remove Israel ever since. The Arabs have started, but lost every war against Israel, hence lost territory.
According to natural rights Libertarian theory, some restitution must be made from Arabs to Jews for these attacks on their just property. But the irony is they believe themselves to be the victims. Demonstrated by Ammous unfriendly tone.
Ammous also ignores the influence of the Grand Mufti of Palestine Al Husseini - the leader of the Arab nationalist movement in Palestine during the 1930s-40s = sided with the Nazis. There is historical evidence to show that he pleaded with Nazi Germany to expand the Final Solution from Europe to include the Middle East.
Surely Libertarian theory has to consider the injustice of such an action. Totally ignored by Ammous.
Does anyone actually believe that if the Nazis succeeded in Europe and expanded further abroad that their would be any Jews left in Palestine?!
Happily the Nazis lost, but yet there are still Arabs in the Holy Land. The irony! Block is definitely right here when quoting Netanyahu.
Whilst I agree Block is not at his best, he definitely is far better than Ammous who seems to think that Hamas or the PA would not create a theocratic authoritarian government of Palestine in the absence of Israel. Daydreaming!
Far better are the chances of a libertarian future for the Middle East with Israel there as opposed to theocratic dictators who want nothing other than a new Muslim caliphate to swallow the free world.
Most of the Jewish land "purchases" from arabs were fraudulent, i.e., the sellers didn't lawfully own the property. You forget that Balfour states that the transfer cannot prejudice the property rights of the indigenous people already on the land. Of COURSE the Pals didn't want a Jewish state on their land. Grand Mufti didn't want Germanys Jews immigrating to his neck of the woods. Read up on the Transfer Agreement (between the 3rd Reich and the Zionists), the middle east is EXACTLY where the Jews of Europe would've ended up, if Hitler had had his way.
Given that Jews, arabs and Christians had lived in that area in close proximity for many centuries (until Zionism), your final paragraph is clearly delulu.
I guess it offends people knowing that jews are indigenous to Judea and Samaria while "palestinians" are indigenous to Jordan and Arabia. Arabs invaded Judea inthe 13th century and prohibited Jews from practicing their faith then eventually exiled them from their own land. The funny thing is, the palestinians from 200AD to 1200AD were christians and jews. The arabs took the moniker much later.
If you want to play that game, you can always go back further in history to say the Jews did not rightfully own the land by libertarian principles.
@@Galgus2000 you can go back to 3200 years ago. The israelites were the first people to create a kingdom there. They were a conglomerate of different canaanite tribes before them.
@mikeySHBK And you're sure noone else lived there before them?
It's absurd to talk about what happended thousands of years ago to justify stealing land from people who have been there for generations.
And the locals probably have more genetics in common with the old Isrealites than all the European and American invaders.
@resmarted not exactly the same. Israelite were canaanites but there also were Phoenicians amorites Syrians mobites etc who were also canaanites
@@mikeySHBK They're dead and just like every other ethnic jew, Palestinians are Israelite descent too, you pos
Walter is a freaking psychopath. He lacks any moral character. The mental gymnastics that he is doing must be some kind of cope because of the collective guilt he feels as a joo. What kind of dofus bows to evil. Especially at the end he sounds like some villain trying to convince the hero to come over to the dark side because he will feel more happy not being inconvenienced by doing the right thing. LOL
What mental gymnastics?
So, in a nutshell its a Islam vs Judaism case.
No it's judaism vs secular property rights. You would know that if you had watched.
@@resmartedIslam is at odds with secularism
That man is crazy, idk hiw can someone can be so delusional