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How to trail brake? - Why You DON'T need to be trail braking : DON'T SKIP WATCH! (timecoded)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2020
- Tips on how to correctly take bends by adjusting your speed WITHOUT trail braking, from a qualified, professional UK instructor of 39 years.
My Facebook link where I regularly post photos and short videos..
/ roadcraftnottingham
I've had many conversations with other instructors about trail braking or "trail breaking" and nearly all of them agree with me on this. You do not need to trail brake on a public road or curve . I explain why you should not trail brake in this upload. See what you think.
To learn more about not trail braking on a motorcycle, consider taking an advanced motorcycle training course.
If you appreciate my uploads and feel they help you, feel free to buy me a cuppa. Thanks. ☺
www.buymeacoffee.com/roadcraftnd
Timecodes
0:26 What is trail braking
0:40 Advantages of trail braking
0:56 trail braking restrictions
1:16 trailbraking hazards / dangers
1:30 Better tyre grip when braking...
1:50 what you don't get on the track
2:08 bike turns tighter under trail braking?
2.27 bike doesn't want to lean any more
2:51 trail braking epidemic
3:50 losing too much speed
4:12 leaving safety in other's hands
4:32 When you do need to trail brake
5:23 how to take a bend or curve
5:53 example of taking the bend
6:22 what to do if you take a bend too fast
7:14 don't surprise your tyre (tire)
8:16 Trailbraking bandwagon
Roadcraft Nottingham is a UK motorcycle school which was established in March 1989.
I am a fully qualified DVSA professional motorcycle instructor of 39 years and offer motorcycle riding tips and tips on riding a motorcycle for the first time all the way up to advanced riding tips.
Please remember to like, comment and subscribe for more riding tips and help with any aspect of riding.
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#trailbraking
#howtotrailbrake
#motorcyclebraking
As someone doing the IAM Advanced rider training, Your channel is the best TH-cam supporting material I've found. Many thanks, keep them coming.
You're welcome and all the best with your training.
Good to have trail braking in your armoury and be skilled enough to use it in case something bad happens like misreading a corner, dead animal on a corner etc
Interesting! I'm new to riding and a lot of the techniques touted just seem to be to cope with riding at ridiculous speeds! Thanks for the dose of sense 👍
Trail breaking is a tool. Use it when/if needed (track, emergency, practise, fun).
The take home from this video is ride your own ride, for your skill level, for your enjoyment. Great video and important for new riders to hear and experienced riders to remember.
It is a tool but with the brakes already applied to maximum they've got nothing left to give when, not if, you encounter a problem. With the tyres at maximum adhesion you cannot change line to avoid - road iron, gravel, pothole, flattened hedgehog, gravel.
Or the tractor you spotted but not the extra wide disc plough behind it.
@@jeffslade1892 you don't need to have your brakes on maximum, just feathering the brakes slightly while entering a corner counts as trail braking and still has the same advantages - and disadvantages!
@@TheMattSturgeon Indeed, there is a wide measure that can be called trail braking, some are going hard... some are unsure of the road ahead, it is all considered trail-braking, but it is just the timing of the brake application and being smooth.
Take away is - observe speed limit and posted speed signs. Then you won't need trail braking, or excessive braking.
when I discovered trail braking it made me so much safer, slower through corners and more controlled, I don't use it much these days but knowing how to alter my bikes geometry using the brakes was a huge aha moment, the first time I went down a steep downhill turn under complete control with the bike perfectly balanced was amazing, I am glad I didn't try to learn it aged 18 though, so wouldn't have had the skill or control to do it properly, def not for beginner riders.
I totally get that most people would use this to ride like nutters though, very few will take the time to learn new techniques at half speed on well known roads and practice consistantly before riding at the legal limit. As a side note I actually had my front slip on gravel whilst trail braking, but I was doing 30 in a 60 limit round a medium right hand turn, it slipped 6 inches through the grit found tarmack again and carried on round the bend, which really surprised me, I didn't grab the brakes or roll off the throttle just kept it going, if I'd been accelerating hard out of the corner at 25 with the front end light like I used to I have no doubt the rear would have come unstuck with a totally different result.
When you first get your motorcycle license trying to get past Target fixation is really hard because when driving a car you're able to look at the scenery and also steer the car around the corner, but on a motorcycle when you come around the corner, if you look at the beautiful Lake, you wind up in the lake.
Really good video and some really good points, the one thing I’d add though, with trail braking your brake movements are extremely smooth and controlled and your generally maintaining a neutral throttle ( or you should be if you’ve been taught properly ) meaning your maintaining that downward force pushing your tyres into the ground creating traction. You still still need to do that when using a traditional turning technique, I see so many new riders high side because they’ve coasted round a corner which not only causes no grip but unless you’ve got a back torque limiter (slipper clutch) when you get back on the throttle you get drive slap which has a tendency to cause the rear wheel to slide. Just thought that might be worth mentioning for the newer riders, maintain a neutral throttle never coast.
People seem to falsely equate trail braking with "last minute, heavy braking". Yes, on a track, that makes sense. Even on the street, there are times where *light* trail braking makes sense. A good example is a nice twisty road. Just a little light trail braking can help keep one's "flow" going, even at perfectly legal speeds. This is in no way maximum, at the traction limit breaking.
It's just a tool. Use it when it makes sense, don't when it doesn't.
I was using trailbraking when I was a newbie who lacked confidence in curves. It felt reassuring to be braking in a curve. Only now do I realize that it was actually the reduced speed that was giving me that confidence. I'm a much more proficient rider now with better grasp of roadcraft and I no longer need trailbraking in any bend or curve.
Good job. On street, trailbraking will usually make you slower. Or it will limit how fast you can take corners before you run off the road or run out of grip.
Even if you've come in "way too hot" into a corner, trail braking doesn't save you on the street. It can only save you when you've entered the corner at a speed that is somewhat BELOW the max, but you've turned in way too early. If you enter most street corners at max speeds, you have to quickflick to make it, without trailbraking.
Racers have different reasons for trailbraking that occur on a wider track. The road is too narrow of a track to benefit, and in street riding you don't pass other riders midcorner, either.
I've seen quite a few TH-cam videos on trail braking, really helpful to hear from a pro your thoughts. Thanks Russ.
I was always taught to do your braking in a straight line before entering the corner to ensure the bike is balanced & settled through the bend. I was taught this by some very fast riders.
"Balanced"... Exactly. ☺
Me too, break balanced , select right gear ( I do gear break which could be a bad habit i guess), lean before accelerating looking for my exit , view point and vanishing points for me, Im like a meerkat looking ahead
There is a difference between riding on public roads and on tracks. Sadly many dont realize that if they do then ego takes over. Thanks for the insight.
Yes, and the difference is not just runoff areas and crash barriers or lack of cops giving traffic citations.
The track is much wider. So much wider that racers sometimes turn in way earlier than you ever could on the street. It's here they trail off the brakes deeper into corner entry, until they reach the tighter/slower apex this creates..
For canyon carving this doesn't work. You don't want to commit early. You want to turn in later and quicker after seeing more of the corner, and staying wide as possible until you can see your exit. I.e, you want to quickflick. If you can manage to stay wide, that's your safety margin. If the corner gets tighter, you have the space to just lean deeper by steering. It's only when you turn in early and are already on the inside of your lane, you need to brake/decelerate to manage a decreasing radius corner.
"Three lots of gravel" 😂 I do like how you edit these honestly Russ, they're slick but not TOO slick (and that's a compliment! It's like we're on a ride with you and you're having a chat on a subject you're coaching us on)
This is a simplification of the whole debate I know, but I've observed a lot of the 'trail braking on the streets' view and videos originating from the US. Slightly different roads maybe? Often the videos where they're demonstrating it are on quite open bends with a good view and limited traffic (although they may suddenly find some traffic... a whole other debate). A B road in the UK is very different.
I'm three years into this motorcycling lark now, from CBT up to an advanced pass, and I still don't feel the need to add trial braking to my road riding. I prefer to come off the brakes and get a little bit of throttle back on with the suspension nice and settled prior to the corner. The odd corner where I've felt I'm a bit too hot I've tickled the back brake as you say.
Funnily enough a year or two back one right hander where I thought "oh crap", pushed the right handlebar forward like I wanted to disembark from the bike, felt a lurch in my stomach like I was on a rollercoaster and despite being an atheist prayed to some deity and somehow came out of it thinking that was massively untidy but at least I'm alive... my IAM observer who was following me complimented me on how well I'd taken that specific corner in the debrief! So maybe it's not trail braking I need to work on, it's faster and more positive steering! 😆
Most people who think they need trail braking just need to get better at positive steering tbh mate 👍
Great comment, thanks. ☺
In my experience you are 100% correct. When I was trying it out, I found that I need to be absolutely flying down the roads to get any use from it. And of course, that it is way too dangerous to do on public roads, if not because of speed alone, then all other dangers that you listed. 80% of the time I just use my engine braking and down-shifting to adjust my speed for the corners. Only instance where I found trail braking useful was on sharper downhill turns where you just can't let your bike go (same as in a car).
Spot on. Why can't the great brainwashed see this? ☺
@@RoadcraftNottingham I would say that because they do actually ride waaay to fast on the roads and get some use out of it. The only problem is the amount of luck that you have in the tank. I don't like to test it too much personally.
I'm learning so much from your videos it inspires confidence. Thank you
wait, wait, wait, you're telling me that the racetrack and public roads are not the same?!!?! ...could someone tell the teenage road users in my town that plz.
I had only recently heard of trail braking as a road riding technique. I knew of it from track days. So I thought Id give it a go on the road. Found it was yet another parameter to be factored in to getting round a corner and it just adds unnecessary complication.
Love your videos is it possible can you do some automatic bike training videos :)
Automatic bike training? Which part did you want me to focus on in particular? Slow speed work? Road Riding is the same principle where hazard perception is concerned.
@@RoadcraftNottingham Yes, I think slow speed maneuvers would be useful. Like how do you best handle the bike without having a clutch to take power away from the back wheel.
Agree, limit point on a bend controls approach, line of entry, exit and speed. As you say, “think ahead”!
Yepp. Just think like a jet pilot - think ahead - then drive through your line selction - while you're planing the next line around another corner and/or see the oncoming traffic or road racers bruuhs :)
And don't ride any faster then you could brake. :)
And when you’re going thru a corner you’ve never been in before, have no idea if there’s another turn connected to it, or where the apex is, the exit is, if it’s a decreasing radius, hazards , etc. Trail brake into the corner until you’re happy with your speed and direction and then smoothly transfer to the throttle and drive out.
I enjoy the open convo and differing ideas, but several flaws: braking doesn’t make the bike stand up-it’s simple physics: when the brakes are applied the suspension is compressed and the wheelbase is shorter which means easier to turn. When you’re on the gas you’re decompressing the suspension and it is going to stand up/run wide.
Because you’re not at a track and don’t know what’s around a blind bend is exactly the reason why you should be trail braking. Take a class at a race track and learn to trail brake and you’ll quickly change your tune, I assure you.
Thank you. You helped me for sure. I’ve been seeing those ‘many advocates’ of “trail braking” - especially on YT - and wondered if I need to learn some kind of magic trick. This video was reassuring and a breath of sensible-ness in the fog of opinions floating round out there. I’ll stick with looking after my own safety as much as possible then, and go into corners having already done my braking. Very reassuring, thanks. Les
Your single comment had made the effort I put into this whole upload worthwhile. It's aimed exactly at people like you. Thanks for your comment.
Hiya Russ, first of all I have to confess to practising trail braking in the car park at Riverside retail Park outside the old toys r us store in Nottingham. I brush up on my techniques like slow turns etc here rather than find out I have gone a bit rusty on public roads.
I must say though that I very rarely, if at all, use trail braking even though it is now in my muscle memory. The only time I did use it, but not that much even then, was in the high Alps on some of the really steep descents, gravity is a powerful force and to be honest pulling the trail braking file out of the brain seemed perfectly natural in the circumstances of decreasing radius corners. Having said that I cannot remember using it on UK roads.
Keep up the vids Russ they are always full of useful information especially for new riders. Putting safety first can’t be emphasised enough. For me it’s 51 years of riding and I still find car parks to keep practicing in a safe environment to keep me sharp.
And that's exactly how it should be. A get out of jail card. ☺
In total agreement; it’s that one time that is going to get you; not worth it to be a second quicker. Great vids, thanks.
Dont know what a trail break is until i watch this. Well anyway i only use my rear breaks around corner is when im going too fast as you mention, which were taught in riding school to use if we were in that situation and over shoot a corner. Like the corner is turning down a hill or just plain misjudging your speed or something.
Well considered argument for not trail braking Russ. Completely agree for road riding
I am led to believe that it is slowly trailing the brake off in the corner which (on the track) may help stabilise the bike.
Thanks for the vid. I do disagree with some of your points though. Its probably a bit misleading to suggest early on that trailbraking is a technique predominantly utilized by big boys or fast boys. Many riders use it as a defensive technique to prepare for corners. I'm sure you could debate the merits of that technique. Also, the bike DOES in fact want to turn quicker when trail braking and not only because of speed reduction, but actually because you've reduced the rake and trail (and therefore the bike stability;easier turn in) and have simultaneously increased the grip on the front tire. If you enter a reducing radius turn, it will be helpful to you if u had already had say 2% breaking applied.
Otherwise, the gravel point is a fair one.
Well said. Agreed 👍
I agree with Leslie, So many people are pushing Trail Braking, I really was thinking I was a bad rider because I didn't do it.....Thanks!
No, the bad riders are the ones who won't listen to this information or many advanced instructors who can accurately read the road and set their speed earlier
Agreed. I ride so I can enjoy and still get home to my kids. I don't leave that responsibility to anyone else with all the madness I see on the roads. This is spot on to me.
Thanks Paul. There's some very brainwashed riders commenting on here.
Very wise words and in my opinion explained very well….I use a very very light front brake tickle almost as I go around some rather tight steep roads, all at very very low speeds…..I find that everything has to be gentle, light and look way ahead…..a relaxed posture has helped me, I am returning to riding after 42 years…..so I am and need to learn, educate myself , and your points have educated me , thanks….on a sewerage note, having had my bike get its first 600 mile service, I rode home and got caught in a rain storm, first time in 42 years…..my bike is a Honda NC750DCT, I put it into Rain mode…and rode very very carefully, I did not panic, but relaxed and slowed right down, of course I was glad to get home..it was very tiring concentrating, my one question, stupid as it sounds, how and what can I do to clear my visor of rain water….that really confused me…..silly I know…thanks for your time and great advice, advice I will heed., cheers from a very dull island of Jersey.
I thought that 'trail braking' was using your rear brake in lieu of the front brake in a corner, the idea being that the rear brake will not make the bike stand up and go straight. Ive never heard of it being a regular practice for all corners.
Have a search around, you'll find loads of people saying it helps you enter and get around the bend faster and watch on board motorcycle racing where they're braking right up to the apex with their front brake.
So I understand where you're coming from where "trail" infers rear brake but in this case means leaving in on.
Indeed, there is a wide measure that can be called trail braking, some are going hard... some are unsure of the road ahead, any prolonged application of brake while at/in the corner, is considered trail-braking, but it is just the timing of brake application and being smooth.
More things in the toolbox that is your head to pull out when needed.
Hi Russ
Well said,
My instructor from many years back always said, NEVER, NEVER EVRY brake on a corner or a bend. The bend is NOT the end of the road unless you make it so.
Things like this are fashion, some twat comes up with reasons to do this and many jump on the band wagon in agreement. Agreed fine for the track, not the road, SAFE, SMOOTH, SYSTEM ATIC and at the right SPEED will always get you round a bend.
Great video and you have the perfect platform to promote issues like this to reach many bikers, I tip my hat to you
"never, never, ever brake in a corner" That is old, out dated, misguided, dangerous information.
Braking does need to be 100% or 50%. It can be 5, 10, 20% using just one or two fingers.
On the road, I think what matters is having your two fingers covering the brake lever simply to reduce reaction time and the tendency to grab.
Good advice thank you 😊
Superb advice as usual.
Thanks. I'm desperately trying to help people to not feel unsafe peer pressure whilst riding.
good stuff. Nothing like a bit of controversy. As they say, in times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
I would be curious to see a video featuring Roadcraft Nottingham (Russ) & a suitable trail braking volunteer (mjt ? or other rider)
Still relatively new to (proper) bikes BUT IAM & emergency services driving background.
During a recent self training session , (on private land), I experimented with hairpin trail braking albeit not at high speeds. In that controlled environment I perceived being more at one with the bike whilst trail braking. I tried various brake pressures & other inputs adjustments. The bike seemingly felt more controlled, tighter, more precise & easier to turn in. I did not sense the bike wanting to drop. This was in the WET ! , (CB600S, NO-ABS, - Good BT-023's). This whilst turning in under braking from around 30-35 mph. I am sure my trail braking was not perfect. If nothing else it reduced some fear, (rightly or wrongly) , of braking when bars not straight..
I am not a cornering god, aspiring racer or knee down rider. I expect non-trail braked cornering to improve as I continue to gain more experience !
Potential for safer emergency braking if forks already under load has appeal. Braking into gravel, diesel spills etc - Not desirable.
UK Police training methods are rightly highly regarded.... I have also seen impressive bike control displayed by Japanese Police braking whilst making turns on bikes (with linked brakes)..Developing this further, some may feel that there can "sometimes" be usable skills which may not feature within one current riding discipline. For me, as a developing "thinking rider " , (a term used by Motorcycle PWR) , I try to keep a fairly open mind.
I will NOT be trail braking on wet public roads & I do not currently intend to incorporate trail braking into daily rides. For now I maybe have another item to future safely develop before placing it into my tool box.
Thanks for interesting content & facilitated dialogue.
Brilliant as always...
Thank you Bob, it's supporters like you that keeps me uploading.
Can you explain russ how you slowing your bike before bends do you engine brake or use your brakes as in this vid you have said your not used your brakes at all .
Take a look at my when I change gears upload. It's all explained there
So if the apex is starting to move away from you then you would be done braking and you do steady throttle?
You should be done reducing speed at the holding phase ideally. Check my latest upload on assessing bends.
God, I wish I had come across you guys when I passed my test, I might have had more than a year before my bike (1999 CBR 600) was completely smashed and I was equally smashed. There is a huge gap in knowledge between what you need to know to pass the test and what you need to know ride a sports bike on public roads. Coincidentally, I did do a training day at Thruxton on how to brake and corner, but it just wasn't enough. My first real shock was on a sweeping left hand bend. I thought I was going too fast and let off the throttle, only to find myself now on the wrong side of the road. Luckily nothing was coming and I reapplied the throttle and got back to the correct side of the road. Just one of dozens of near death incidents that occurred during that crazy year. The only reason I survived was due to the extraordinary talents of the NHS doctors and nurses.
I'm glad you're OK.
Blimey, that's spooky! I was searching 'trail braking' for the first time only yesterday! Immediately thought 'Nah, that's not for me'.... (unconnected) Incidentally, the rear drum brake on my old Honda won't stop the bike on it's own at 10mph (new shoes) (don't ask how I know) The first set lasted 24K miles, so, you can tell how often it gets used for 'braking'. Makes you wonder if any of the 'smooth' road racers used trail braking back in the day??
to me trail braking means you have failed to read the road and get to the right speed before the bend to get around it safely.
slow in and fast out always works
Great video
I've long advocated feathering the rear brake into a bend. This does not negate anything you said, indeed you mentioned applying the rear brake as hard as you dare in the bend if necessary. Feathering is almost but not quite braking but ready to apply. Strangely ye olde rear drum brake probably has better feel and more fine control than a disc. At this point a light application of brake will tip a bike further down even if you have run out of counter-steer; you won't have time to move your weight about. The front brake will do the complete opposite and possibly catastrophic. Probably not a significant effect on your big Honda due to its mass and limited lean angle.
The only time I've had to feather a rear brake was on a cbr600rr, two up going downhill on a very winding Spanish mountain road and it helped bring it around the really tight bends. In any other situation, having the bike balanced between the wheels with accurate use of the throttle is all I've ever needed. The flashing of the brake light on my lessons, if nothing else just looks unprofessional. (edited as I didn't read your last comment) Regarding the Pan, you'll be surprised how much it'll hustle but I can't upload that 😉.. Also bear in mind over the last 38 or so years I've had a range of bikes including a fireblade, zzr1100, Tuono V4 and still never needed to trail brake in any way.
agree with you 100%
cheers mate
My understanding for trail braking is that it's used to defend a line. It's not even the fastest on the track.
At least that's how I remember my many years ago lessons from the California Superbike School.
The fast line was to finish all your braking in a straight line, then flop the bike over quite quickly while rolling on the throttle. Just to be clear, the throttle is opening as you peel in. Where the trail brakers are still unable to get full lean and are tiptoeing around the transition, you're going a good deal quicker, full lean, the power on which stiffens the rear suspension, driving hard for the exit, maybe with a little drift from the rear to brighten your day. Of course that leaves the door wide open for a trail braker to nip up the inside on the entry and block pass you even though they have no momentum and are going slower.
If there's noone trying to get by you, you're not trail braking. If course on the road, you're not defending a line.
Beautiful road, enjoyed the view as much as anything.
The Peak District is beautiful.
After almost forty years of professional motorcycling in uncountable different situations on public roads,
I can only say: you are absolutely right. Spot on!
Stay safe..
Ed.
Thanks Ed. The young uns won't be told. ☺
Really enjoyed this, Russ,and thank you.
The information you gave was very helpful for someone like me who understands and uses 'the system' in my job in an ambulance, but who has not yet had any formal advanced motorcycle training, and I have been hearing all these voices banging on about trail braking, and thinking to myself, how on earth can that be applied with RoadCraft?
Anyway, thanks again.
You're welcome, this upload is aimed exactly at people like you for that reason. Thanks for your comment.
Nice to see you using the Via Gelia. That's a road that demands total concentration. Did you mention gravel?
Damn, I knew there was something I'd forgotten!
Everywhere on TH-cam, you see these people advocating trail braking as the proper technique for taking corners on public roads.. You are right it's become an "epidemic". It seems to me, it's a suitable technique on the track for a Valentino Rossi or Mick Doohan. On public roads, it is entirely unnecessary. I get all my braking done before, I enter the corner. I don't "complicate it" as someone also said here in the comments. I just continue to do what I was taught in my learner rider class, " slow, look, press and roll". I never break the speed limit, and I enter a corner at a speed a public sign would tell me to enter it at. It's good that you have put this video out, to counter the massive misconception of trail braking, being a legitimate technique for public road riding.
Simple sum up is trail braking is for the ego riders or people who can't correctly assess bend severity.
My impression is that trail braking for the road/street is an invention of content creators and track-based motorcycle instructors. It gives them something to talk about and invests their content with a little bit of racetrack glamour.
Track based trail braking is very specific, it's about managing front suspension compression during the transition from hard braking to maxim lean angle turning. Nobody is saying that you can't do on the road what you do on the track: braking beyond the point at which you start to lean into the turn; braking mid-turn, but neither need be used routinely on the road.
Many pro trail brakers have misunderstood the concept themselves. I need to do another upload because many are mistaking trail braking for simple downhill bend braking or corrective braking. One well known USA "instructor" even said to trail brake when leaving a freeway so he doesn't get rear ended!......what happened to planning well ahead and getting the following driver's attention by flashing the brake lights in plenty of time? Thanks for your knowledgeable comments.
@@RoadcraftNottingham Hi Russ, would that "well known instructor" have been Nick Ienatsch? If so, have you read his article for Cycle World, titled "The Pace"? In it he seemed to capture what makes sports bike riding motorcyclists (who want to keep their license long term) tick. The emphasis was on keeping maximum speeds down (to protect your license) and judging corner entry speed to perfection; the combination of which led to minimal brake use. And now, ironically, he's become one of the leading "brake draggers".
I'm surprised there aren't more trail braking skeptics out there. I suspect some of them spend more time watching videos than riding their bikes. I might be one of them!
@@roadracingrelics it wasn't him but very good obs there.... I often ask people who say track riding helps on the road...how? Are there bad road surfaces on track? Vehicles coming the other way? Animals? Oil without people waving flags? Old worn road tyres? Badly set up suspension?..and so on. All track riding helps with is fast handling. Speed on a road is dictated by two things, available view so you can stop in the distance you see to be clear on your side of the road, and road conditions, these people simply won't listen. My biggest problems are the loud, "whoop whoop man" egostists who think fast is good, whatever the conditions and those sheep who blindly follow these loud self proclaimed "instructors" thinking they must be right. I appreciate your feedback, makes a refreshing change.
One these trailfaking youtubers asked me "well, what do you do if the radius tightens up later in the corner if you're not already on the brakes?"
I asked him if he has ever heard of steering. He deleted that account.
He also had a video where he blasted a course that was trying to teach him how to steer precisely, in order to quick flick the bike into a corner. He said it was the scariest thing in his life, and he thought it was insane to try to lean a bike at a specific point on the track.
Track racing is different because racers have to turn in early sometimes. They do this to pass on the inside, or in some cases to make a corner shorter to shave off a little laptime (mostly on wider tracks with powerful bikes that will not be as penalized by the tighter, slower apex that this creates). It's mostly when racers purposely turn in early that they trail brakes deeper into a corner.
If you turn in early, you are partially leaned. You're not turning tight enough to finish the corner, but you can't lean deeper, yet. There's not enough track, due to this bad angle. So you decelerate for now.
There's no good reason to purposely plan on turning in early in street riding, unless you are scared of steering the bike correctly. Even if the street were as wide as a racetrack, you still wouldn't gain real benefit from purposely taking trail braking lines. If you're forced to turn in early, due to obstruction or other vehicle, then front brake it is. Now you can trail brake with a reason.
I believe I watched that video, about that instructor trail braking so he doesn't get rear ended. But I think you're mistaken, and he was talking about making a relatively sharp right hand turn off the road, rather than an exit ramp.
In this case, I know what he means. And it just shows how very rarely trail braking should actually be useful to you in street riding (if you can steer properly, anyyway. Braking in corners is always going to be useful for riders who can't steer quickly and take proper lines).
In the case of a right turn (not a corner), you have to slow down a lot compared to the speed of traffic that is not taking the turn. And if you were to stay wide and turn in late as you do that, a lazy driver might think you're going to turn left or maybe you're just trying to stop in the center lane of the street, because there's too much glare to see your turning signal.
In this scenario, it is somewhat safer to turn in "too early." As you bring your bike closer to the right, It signals to the drivers behind you that you're goign to turn right. And the lazy driver has a way to go AROUND you at the last moment, if he's not paying attention. When you turn in too early, like a racer on a wider track, you've started to lean but you're not turning tight now. So you can safely continue shedding speed, because you'll have to turn tighter later.
The fact this particular instructor has to come up with such a very unique example to show the utility of trail braking suggests to me that he actually has good cornering skill and rarely finds brakes useful in actual corners. But he has been peer pressured into promoting trail braking for street riding.
These trail braking videos are basically a sign that the motorcycle educators in the US have given up on teaching people how to quick flick in order to take safer lines. Too many riders can't do it, including some of the other instructors who are teaching trail braking for the street.
A lot of this is predicated on road limits. The most fun roads to go around bends on, IME, are in the Pyrenees, where, unlike the Alps, there are plenty of roads which follow landscape curves over the mountains rather than climb up them in a series of hairpins. The point being that on a lot of these roads, half the turns (the non-blind ones) have good visibility, not just around the bend, but a good 200 meters of road ahead of the bend.
On the point of braking making the bike stand up - yes it does, particularly if you increase braking suddenly while banked over. OTOH if you brake progressively and still control the steering, it does sharpen the steering head angle which makes the bike bank faster with countersteer. But realistically you need to be doing triple digit speeds approaching long curves that are only tight due to speed for that to have a useful effect.
And how many riders are genuinely good enough to be able to *safely* ride like that? Add to this, even if you have a clear view ahead, any spillage etc on the road which, at that speed would wreck your line then it's "hello rivine"
There's loads of great riders out there who haven't crashed.. Right up to the point where they crash. Then when they do they'll blame anything but themselves, I've seen it countless times in my job. My upload is really for the people who want to hear the other side of the argument and are sensible enough to listen, to take any peer pressure away from them. What the pro trail brakers decide to do is up to them as long as they don't take me out with them. Thanks for your comment.
Thank you!!!
An interesting insight and hint that if you are trail breaking in say the 30s and 40s and possibly beyond, you are likely to be breaking the speed limit in any case.
After rounding a blind corner recently and expecting at worst gravel, diesel, anti-freeze, AdBlue or dead badgers, a horse & rider (on auto-pilot?) came out of a gap in the hedge onto my side of the road. Quite glad I wasn't trail braking and just giving myself more breathing (and living) space.
Great video as always, but I feel like you've avoided what I thought were the main arguments for trail braking on the road and I'd like to know whether you think these are the case:
1. If there is an unforeseeable hazard mid-corner then you don't have to make the transition to braking, you've already started the process of progressive braking, you just have to add more.
2. By making it a habit, you will learn how the machine behaves when braking in the corner, and what's possible. Contrast this with a rider who has done as they're told and never braked on a corner until the day the unexpected hazard happens. In that scenario, which they have never practised (it's not safe to practise this on a public road), are they really going to remember to initiate the braking smoothly and then find the maximum safe amount of braking force in a few split seconds before hitting the hazard?
Also, trail braking doesn't necessarily mean late braking. Isn't it possible for a trail braking corner to take exactly the same time as a normal corner? It's just using less peak braking force in a smoother manner.
Good points. IMO there's a difference between 'trail braking' and 'preloading' the suspension/brakes.
In any case one should be 'ready' *before* the corner, but the 'transition' to (unforeseen) braking could cost valuable time.
But would love to hear Russ' thoughts on this!
@James Stewart that sounds good in theory but I have come across many corners where if I were to put that into practice then I would drop down to
You'll probably find that concentration, forward planning and anticipation will usually buy the time needed to transition to throttle off/brakes without having to keep lighting up your brake light behind and unnecessarily wearing your brakes. The cornering forces acting whilst banking will already have a load on your tyres and smooth and progressive use of the controls will always help reduce the chance of any crash. If you watch most cornering crashes you'll see most are down to sudden movements, grabbing brakes or chopping throttles. Preloading won't really have any real advantage imo, setting your entry speed to your available view always will.
Ryan, one time I was bending in a blind corner, and
mid corner there was a parked truck, which naturally I saw unexpectedly as a went into the corner. I wasn't trail braking. My reaction was to get the bike upright, then apply hard progressive braking. This action took merely seconds. I did not slide nor crashed. I ended few feet away from the truck. And I had a girl as copilot. My point is that for sure there are "tools", but they are worth nothing if one is not concentrating, anticipating or planning. Trail braking is touted as the great cornering technique, but most instructors forget that the best technique and even biker gear starts right in the head. Trail braking became a fad that truly needed someone to tell us to think first, act later, not the other way around.
I'm not sure some people understand what we mean by "be able to stop in the distance you see to be clear"... If something is "suddenly" around the bend as has often been mentioned here, if your speed is low enough to be able to stop in the distance you see to be clear etc, it doesn't matter what the hazard is, your speed is *already* low enough to brake safely. If you have to either preload or continue braking into the bend, you're already going too fast for the conditions.
You mentioned the magic word once....’Smooth’!
I Haven’t ridden with others for a long time now but it used to amuse me the way the ‘squirt then steer’ merchants thought they were quick...but, each to their own I guess...
Bottom line, you’re never too old to learn, and that’s coming from an old git.
A nice informative vid..👍..😊
Thank you. (from another old git) ☺
in other words ... if you drive slow you don't need trail braking! And you are right!! the problem is.. I am wrong! all my friends are wrong, and we ride fast!!! way far from the limit.. so.. yes.. trail braking is important!! its what it is.. I try to be safe always.. but I assume some "controled" risks for fun!!
Completely agree. Nice video.
Thankyou. I can't believe that USA "instructor" moto.. Thingy has so many blind followers doing it wrong. He also deletes the comments that don't agree with him.
@@RoadcraftNottingham well if it's shiny enough, people will always think it must be good and if you don't know better...
Keep going with the great channel. Really like your content.
Sometimes people need to remind themselves, that while on a public road, that they are not motorbike racers. I try to do this when getting too carried away on country roads. I've been there when rounding a bend and there was a dead opossum in the middle of the road. That didn't end well. After my broken leg healed, I started to remind myself, that I'm not a motorbike racer.
People watch too much tv, that creates the "monkey see monkey do" what you see in the world around you today. People lose touch with reality, and become a danger to themselves and others.
It's not the only way no. Nor is it necessary. Nor do you need to focus on that as a newbie.
I've done it naturally over time even before knowing what trail braking is.
Mainly only do it if I need to shave off more speed, or am riding aggressively. After a 12h day, you will simply not be 100% able to be completely focused, thus comes in handy if a corner tightens up and you've been lazy.
I do not ride within the speed limit especially on backroads, but I limit speed by how much visibility and space I have + state of the road I'm on. I also mostly never accelerate very aggressively through the corner either, nor do I come into corners very hot, thus do it partly as an added safety net.
What's "useful" is having it as an added safety net, braking this if first intended to allow you to carry more speed on corner entry, but there's literally no reason not to do it as a way to scrub off even more speed to adjust your line, IF you're fully capable of doing so.
Trail braking in no way equals you need to be hauling ass simultaneously.
You simply don't "need" to do it if you're a newbie and have other priorities, or hell, even if you're tired or simply don't feel like it.
The idea that you shouldn't need it, perfectly agree. The idea that you shouldn't learn it at some point, is the kind of mentality that produces riders that've been at it for 10 years, then go to a parking lot course and have issues doing extremely basic exercises.
Which is quite sad frankly.
Even at track schools, literally the last things you learn and practice are braking into corners and accelerating out of a bend. The vast majority of people posting here aren't even able to be relaxed on the bars, let alone trail brake. Of course it's not the time to be doing that.
Great comment, thanks. Yes, it's not about speed, it's about view on public roads and the hope that as you're braking into that corner that the road surface doesn't suddenly change whilst the tyre is under load
@@RoadcraftNottingham The road surface changing in terms of bumps and dips, that's what your suspension is there for provided it's properly set up for you and your use case. Given the fact that you're not at speeds higher than visibility and general road surface would allow it, and not at a lean angle where suspension action is hindered by a lot and it's working in its mid stroke / at least not bottomed out, just using light trail brake, you hitting a bump, even a more significant one, will not have much of a negative effect. Again being relaxed on the bars helps.
If you see a gaping chasm in the middle of the bend, yeah, well, better stop or avoid it lol.
Oh and bears. I've been cut off by bears a number of times, not fun.
If you encounter gravel, there's a whole other reaction to that. Most people i've seen crash on random slippery surfaces inside of a corner, live or on video, were simply not looking ahead, panic braking, coming in too hot, or simply didn't stand the bike up as much as possible and then resume a safe line immediately after".
But yeah, there's a line between brisk and risk, lol.
Been experimenting with trail braking verses the Code method since the unlock, and as you point out, road riding has differing problems to track riding, potholes, gravel, road kill gravel and gravel :) . At the speed limits on UK roads I've not noticed any benefit from TB'ing other than feeling a (false?)sense of comfort, in that you feel that by braking into a corner, you somehow have more control . I think that TB'ing has its place and being able to know when and how it feels to the way the bike reacts is an important skill for both road and track. But I fully agree, the Code is the prime method of cornering, but knowledge is power!!
Good thought provoking video
Stay Safe
Strickers
Totally agree with you. I've tried and tried trail braking and really am not smooth and as you say, can't find any positive application outside emergencies due to lack of planning. I can only imagine how unsmooth these trail brakers must generally be or were before adopting this method.
And I thought it was me not being smooth enough or doing something wrong. Having never ridden on the track still not sure how much pressure is required to properly set up the front into a corner. 'Suppose having a bus pass and a GS on 10/90 tyres is not the ideal criteria!
You mean keith code right? I believe his method is spot on as well. In fact, he even mentions in his book that it is extremely rare for a rider to whipe out the front end while steering aggressively into the corner. On that note, on public roads i feel it's even more smooth to already crack open the gas before cornering. That way while leaned over, you'll not be facing "drive chain slack" as keith put it. You can then just slowly drive the gas open through the corner, feel what the back tire is doing. In fact, i honestly believe that saved my bacon a week ago when the back tire drifted out due to oil or something of the like. Automaticly i eased off a bit, the bike corrected (bit violent) and i eased it back on. Happened really fast, but i'm sure that if i'd been trail breaking, i wouldn't have been able to pull through. It was luck yes, but also correct techniques applied for good stabillity of the bike. On a 1984 honda nighthawk 650 that was for info.
Yep...common sense....when I first heard about trail breaking ....well I had to try it...that lasted about a week and a few hundred kilometers...I did not enjoy my rides more...I felt the bike wasn't as happy ....and surmised it isn't for me....you put into words what my gut was trying to tell me...and where I live we have the worst road surfaces in the western world. lots of overgrown rabbits and pythons as thick as your thigh and 6 to 8 metres long that love the warm tar in the evenings and seem to prefer corners... Great channel...thankkyou
I have revisited this video after i crashed on 25.5.22 in the dark, wet and GRAVEL lol. i had seen this video years ago and was practicing the method. until! i started listening to the LOUDER ppl, most other motorcycle youtube trainers promote it. I never had a problem until the conditions caught me out. I was approaching a left hand turn , following a car at 5:50am AUS time , it was dark, wet , the car turned the corner covering the pile of loose gravel that i just didnt see. i was braking, leaning and as soon as i turned and hit the unseen gravel i felt the front slide out and i smacked the road breaking two ribs. off work, No bike and a lot of discomfort. fortunately will live to ride another day. BUT BUT i will never trail brake again and will stick to watching ROADCRAFT NOTTINGHAM video instructions from now on. As trail braking was big factor in my crash. Funny when i first got my license 20 years ago , i was taught to do all my braking before corner, which i had done incident free for 17 years, until the louder crowd crept in and i thought this would make me a better rider. I would take this videos advice and keep the trail braking for the track, it happens so fast you dont get a chance to react .
thanks Russ? you need to get LOUDER lol
Sorry to hear that buddy, hope you're well. Take a look at my latest upload about restraint, it has a similar problem with mud around the bend but as you've seen, my speed was already low enough without needing to be braking still. Thanks for your comments.
@@RoadcraftNottingham yes I did I have been bingeing on your videos 😂.
Yes very wise.. must train that self control 👍
Keep up great work ✋
I agree mostly...BUT :) most bikers ride over the speed limits by at least 10-20 miles, so their corner speed is almost always too high. I use front or rear trail braking on the road only in very tight/blind corners as I feel much safer and more in control that way. If I have to brake more, I'm already on the brakes.
As I've mentioned though, even if we take away speed limits, you're STILL physically limited by the view you have so you're travelling too fast for the conditions.
@@RoadcraftNottingham 10 or 20 mph above a posted corner is not too fast for a biker. Most corners are engineered around the least common denominator. You wouldn't want a top heavy truck to topple over in a corner.
Great insight in to the subject... it does have its place for sure... it’s just I personally haven’t found it ;) track days, sure thing... regular road riding, nope not come across a situation that warrants it.
Although it should be pointed out that trail braking and braking in the corner are two different animals... the former is letting your braking trail off once you’ve started the turn, and the other is when an “oh shit” moment has occurred... and you need to do something about it ( usual caveats, don’t snatch, smooth smooths smooth application, straighten up the bike etc etc )
Once again Russ... like Mike the other day, giving clearheaded reasoned guidance.
Stay well mate... thanks again
Steve.
Cheers Steve
I still enjoyed your video. I still enjoy trail braking on roads where I can ride a bit faster. But I also can enjoy a calmer ride, where most of the braking is done by the engine..
I would agree if you are obeying the speedlimit or generally just riding slower that it does reduce the need to trail brake. What is the point of trail braking if I'm going to loose too much speed In the corner? You generally have to carry sufficient speed into the corner In order to trail brake.
But my question is. How slow do you need to ride in order ìt insure you never need to brake in a corner?
How do you deal with a blind decreasing radious corner if you're not going to trail brake. Your only option is to lean the bike more as the corner tightens up. Then we wonder why newer riders loose confidence and run wide In these situations. It's because they are specifically told not to use your brakes in the corner.
Not to mention having the ability to avoid hazards in the road by tightening up your line. You mention the hazard of diesel or gravel in the road and what would happen if you hit them with your brakes on. Which is a fair point. But I would much rather have the grater ability that trail braking provides to slow down and change direction mid corner to avoid these hazards than to simply run over them and hope for the best.
Why would I arbitrarily limit myself by disregarding this fundamental skill?
I'm with you. The number one rule is going at a speed so you can stop within the distance you see to be clear on your side of the road, speed limits are irrelevant then as your real limit is simply the available view. Remember I'm also a biker and don't always obey legal limits, just view limits. Easing off your throttle further on a decreasing radius bend and smoothly dialling in some brake is all that's needed for changes in speed then which isn't technically trail braking.
@@RoadcraftNottingham
Fair enough. I think my diffinition of trail braking is a little broader. But thats just semantics.
I just feel a bit strongly about this, because When I first started riding I was told rather adamently by an instructer to NEVER use my brakes in a corner. No mention of down hill or decreasing radious corners was made.
And for the first two years of my riding I took this rather to heart. Until I had a bit of a silly crash where I could have used my brakes but didnt. Once I had a few track days under my belt I realised how misguided this notion was. Because on the track If I can brake fairly agressively all the way to the apex of a corner with my knee on the ground. Why on the road going a moderat speed can I not apply a moderate ammount of brake where the situation requires it?
@@conortobin6180 Yep, very unfortunate. We advise to plan so you can avoid using them but if you need them, smoothly does it. Thanks for your comments and feel free to chip in on other uploads too.
@@RoadcraftNottingham cheers. Will do.
Totally agree! I only trail brake when I have proper vision of the road - entry and exit of the bend. Also... brake like a lemon! Tracks are a very different discipline altogether, but lots of riders treat the roads like a track! Funnily enough, when a lot of these ‘fast riders’ get to a track they’re a bit slow 😉
I've found that too. You can spot a road rider who's scared of his bike but trying to look cool a mile off 😂
Roadcraft Nottingham, it’s all a learning curve (no pun intended). I did track day instruction and used to great pleasure from helping those who genuinely wanted it. Shame that some were too proud to ask.
@@WDXash yes, and many end up dropping a *clanger* 😉
Roadcraft Nottingham by falling off the iron chicken 😁
Thanks for that Rcn good to remember
AS you SAY only maintain you speed as FAR as you can see, great Advice RUSS :)
Trail breaking on track is for being faster. On road, faster is not a goal. Safety is the most important. But trail breaking on road is still making some sense if you do it purposely. Keeping a very little break after entering the corner has the great advantage of avoiding the "ho shit breaking" reflex. It save the few 10th of second you need to take the brake and start applying pressure. It doesn't necessarily mean you can ride any faster, just that you can have a little extra safety margin. As for ridding with a passenger, it is absolutely stupid to care anything else than his (her) comfort and safety...if the ride is not smooth you are probably riding alone very soon.
This was recently discussed on FB via another youtube upload and it does feel like trail braking is answering a question that no-one is asking, for road riding, except in a fraction of cases. For the track? sure - fill your boots looking for those nths of a second - but not for the road. There are simply too many variables. You progress as fast as you can see to be clear - that's it - and more than often I'll find myself not using the brakes at all while making progress. I know The System (IPSGA) isn't for everyone but until I find something better it's more then adequate...
I don't see how increasing control when entering a corner isn't a very good idea on public roads. Trail braking doesn't require you to go faster, It just allows you to. You can start practicing it slower than your current average speed. And it's safer too, because it gives you the option to effectively decrease your speed during the turn, rather than hoping your initial calculation is correct. The - no braking into the corner - rule refers to braking that begins as you're already leaned into the corner. Holding a portion of your braking and carrying it into the corner is a different story. The brake is already engaged, so any increase will be smooth, and the bike has maintained its geometry.
Around a corner going downhill, like a mountain switchback - I find if I don’t trailbrake that could end very badly - and that’s happened to me in 1st gear.
Generally speaking I respectfully disagree that trailbraking is just for excessive speed and loud bikers. I am an old chicken biker and that’s precisely why I trailbrake. Keeping a little bit on the brakes makes it much less likely I’ll lock up the front, putting me in a much safer position if something surprises me. And if I see gravel I can either let go of the brake, slow down more and then let go the brake, or be in control to avoid it altogether.
Also, please explain the bit where braking makes your bike “sit up”. My suspension compresses when I brake, and the bike sits up when I get on the throttle, so v confused. I’m sure it’s just a terminology thing.
What I'm saying is that if you're having to preload your brakes in case something is around the corner, you're not following the "be able to stop in the distance you see to be clear" rule as you'd be able to stop *without* preloading by just slowing down a little more/earlier. Braking down a downhill bend is different to the definition of trail braking as you have no choice. Regarding the sitting up, do a track day and brake as hard as you can into the bend, the bike will eventually resist you at a certain lean angle, proving it's the brakes stopping you turning tighter, because when you let go of the brakes it drops. Also, lean into the bend on closed throttle but no brakes, your forks are compressed, allowing tighter turning, *then* put your brakes on and watch the bike sit up. Of course, you do what you want to, this upload is for people feeling like they're doing wrong by not trail braking because of the loud, know it all popular youtubers out there. Your bike, your life. Thanks for your comment. ☺
@@RoadcraftNottingham Thanks for replying - I appreciate it. I guess I haven't seen the same youtubers you refer to, though I'm sure they exist. The ones I've watched, especially Canyon Chasers' entry on trail braking, have not been loud, and not know-it-all, and point to the value of trail braking as an integral part of your "be able to stop in the distance you see to be clear" rule - NOT in conflict with it.
I guess my understanding of trail braking is that you're not so hard on the brakes that this is even noticeable. Meanwhile the increased traction from weighting the front wheel is important.
As for brakes vs no brakes and compressed suspension, I still have the opposite view - ie suspension is compressed while braking, and not compressed under throttle, whether cornering or no.
you said not to trail because something might be in the road but surely already being on the brakes is better? doesnt make sense to me maybe im misunderstanding what your saying. also, if you cant see around a corner what if you misjudged the exit and need to slam the brakes, trail braking fixes that too ?
not like track racing speeding and trail braking on public roads but literally just staying on the brakes like 1% even and still braking normally to slwo down for the corner before hand too
There's a difference between trail braking and emergency braking when you misjudge a bend. Say your speed for visibility, being able to stop in the distance you see to be clear is 40 mph, that's the max speed, 40..trail braking or not, if either of us enter at 40 we can both stop but you're lighting your brake lights and wearing your brakes on every bend because you've not assessed your limit point as I have. The only way you'd NEED trail braking as mentioned, is when you're entering too fast for the bend. Look at my shorts where there's a tree sticking out and the car reverses, my speeds already set and I only NEEDED my brakes on that one occasion making my general bend riding smooth.
Having your fingers covering the front brake lever just in case is more than acceptable but no need to light the brake light. Remember, set your speed to your view and you'll be fine.
100% right. I’ve had the misfortune to put enough people, who didn’t expect the unexpected, into body bags. Safe and steady wins the day and allows you to do it all again tomorrow.
Great video Russ, perfectly explained.
Thanks and thanks for your service.
What happens if the limit point is still closing but you've reached the point at which you need to turn in/lean the bike over? Surely you need to be braking all the way until the limit point steadies but sometimes this is way deep into the corner? There is so much conflicting advice about this and it's one thing I'm really struggling with. It would be really helpful if you did a demonstration ride describing what you're doing with each brake, or even better have a camera on the throttle hand.
I covered that in this upload. Yes, I'll do a multi cam upload sometime.
Wise, as ever.
We could grab some clubs and do a spot of juggling on the way round too - but why would we need too - in road riding, if you've set up correctly for a bend you just don't need this - why overcomplicated something so simple and risk upsetting the balance of the bike at a crucial time if you misjudge it - I don't comment on much but I put the same comment on about five different trail braking posts describing how I set up and asking them to explain how trail braking is an improvement on that - I've never had a reply from any of them.
The main response I get is to take the slack out of the brakes in case somethings around the bend... 1/ how much slack do they have in their brakes? 😂 And 2/ they miss the point that once speed is set correctly for available view you have more "time to react" in the first place.
Do you think the type, or more specifically the power, of the bike feeds into this discussion at all? I don't like trail braking and I think that comes from being on smaller bikes for years as a kid, I had to hang onto as much speed as possible while turning so to speak. But on the other hand if you learn on a big bike, you probably don't care about slowing down because the power is there to come out of the turn fast.
There’s a tremendous amount of confusion and conflation and strawman arguments in this video and comments about “trail breaking”, it’s mind boggling. Go check out the champ school and motojitsu videos on this for a clearer understanding of the physics of the bike, as well as direct coverage of the specific aspects you’ve brought up.
Well sad Naughty-Ham Biker ,I enjoyed your Vids for years Thanks, the Riders have to remember Motorcycles are 1% of the road traffic and 20% of road accident fatalities which most of them on cornering about 9% , enjoy it safely
I just naturally went to trail braking when I first started riding. I think it came from years on my race bike (the pedal type that is). Realizing how much grip that little razer thin tire had especially when leaning over and applying brakes. Sure wasn't on any race tracks either. What I was doing was "trail braking". On my first bike (1987 fz600) that braking technique was used alot - especially when getting into the mountains. I like to point people now to several books... one is sport riding techniques.. and if you are more mathematically inclined: Motorcycle Dynamics will lay out why this works. Just one final thing.. trail braking is not there to give you a pass to enter corners hot. That is not its purpose. Usually I find people against this old technique confuse it with allowing the rider to be an idiot. Any instructor that thinks this allows their pupils to ride faster should be fired immediately.
Agreed but I also went a step further, taking away the people wanting to go faster, you're still limited by your view so simply slowing down until you get your view will reduce the need to light your brake lights or have unnecessary wear and tear on your brake parts. Myself and many advanced instructors and police riders/instructors haven't needed trail braking by correct bend/Road assessment so we're the ones on the public road that others should listen to.
A technique is for being executed, which it means it is applied right in the action. Trail braking is a technique, a way of executing something. But most of the time, the proponents of this technique forget to mention that the best technique starts in the head, not in the hands or body. Concentration, situational awarenesses, anticipation, planning and prudence are far more important than any technique, because with them we can judge the necessity of the techniques that should be applied given a situation. Trail braking is by no means needed for all situations. Good judgment is. Public roads are not the track.
As an IAM member I totally agree with you I will never brake in a corner unless in the situations you described accelerating also puts the tyre and suspension under load thus creating grip
Actually, the bike does turn tighter when trail braking. This is because when you apply a bit of front brake you put load on the front suspension compressing the front. They what happens to the rake etc of the bike? The front wheel gets closer to the rear. Which bike turns quicker between a chopper with a big rake or a super sport given they are traveling at the same speed?…
Now, If you don’t want to trail that is fine and during normal sensible riding it’s not really necessary but in a blind corner I don’t know if the corner gets even tighter or if there is an obstacle. In that case I would like the have as much possibility to turn/swerve/stop as possible and it’s there I find the real benefit of trail braking on the streets. Just a slight preassure on the front brake is all that is needed. You don’t have to use t.b to go faster but can use it to ride safer and keep the shiny side up 👍
The only tightening of the bend achieved is simply due to the reduction in the speed of the bike. Try this... whilst trail braking/banked over, let go of the brakes and see the bike want to lean more. Take a look at my responses on other comments because I'm saying the same thing. Fully government qualified advanced instructors like myself, not self appointed or just MSF car park youtube "instructors" with ego issues agree with me. We're the professionals. Simply set up your speed to match the view before the bend and you're sorted. Trail brake to get you out of your bad planning. Thanks for your comment. ☺
@@RoadcraftNottingham You did not respond to any of the points I made... Ok, if i put it like this. We can surely agree that grip is a good thing to have on a motorcycle. Put you palm gently on the table, now drag it across. Simple yes? Now do the same but put some preassure on it. The grip has increased due to the preassure. The palm is your front wheel and GENTLY keep preassure on your front brakes through the corner and you will transfer weight onto your front wheel and get better grip.
You may be an instructor of some sort, but that does not mean that you can tell physics to not apply.
Physics already applies... You already have the weight on your motorcycle pressing your tyres into the road and at 1g and as you lean your bike around the curve that g force increases, increasing grip grip on both your tyres. How much more grip you need depends on the speed you want to go, increasing G force will also look after that for you and you need to also take into consideration the road surfaces seen and unseen. It's like when you're thirsty, you only need one glass of water, why fill a bucket when you don't need it? More important than the simple amount of pressure through one tyre is the *balance* between *both* tyres whilst having grip through G force/weight on both with a slightly opening/maintaining throttle throughout the steady curve.
@@RoadcraftNottingham How do you come to the conclusion that with less downward preassure on the contact patch due to lean angle you get more downward preassure? Yes, the g-forces increase but thats the lateral Force i.e centrifugal force which is conterproductive to grip.
Yes, unseen obstacles. Also a point I made about already applying small amounts of brake to load Up suspension and continuing to scrub of speed. If something appears before me I can grab quite alot more brake quickly this way compared to no compression at all with less risk of loosing the front of there is gravel in the corner for instance because I have already maximized My grip given the circumstances.
Work out the pressure going through motorcycle tyres on the wall of death circus attraction. An exaggerated version of your example whilst braking.
Im no racer, ive only been riding for two years. Although i did see a video decribing a situation where trail braking could be useful whilst going through the initial "alright, how do I do this" phase before i got my license. It was in america and the guy was trying to get off a highway using a sharp 90 degree turn onto a rural back road. Not great town and country planning by any means. His justification was that the more time he spends slowing down for the corner, the higher the risk of getting rear ended. To be fair to him (from memory) it was wide open flat ground with not even a tree in sight.
I've seen that one and he's just making an excuse. Two problems.. 1/ if there's gravel/oil or debris on the turn it's too late and 2/ it's bad planning as no one gets hit from behind by extending their braking distance and flashing brake lights to warn the following car. Rear enders almost always occur by sudden braking.
Bret Tkacs advocates for trail braking for safety reasons, which he has clearly articulated in a video a month ago.
I was shaking my head in utter disbelief throughout your video. I routinely trail brake on public roads and sm always well within the distance I can see clear to stop safely on my side of the road. I am by no means using all the available grip on my tire.
Just as you can brake in a straight line without using maximum grip the same is true of trail braking. Trail braking is safer as if I do have to brake for a vehicle coming round on the wrong side of the road, ny front tire is already loaded.
In nearly 40 years of riding, that's never been so dangerous I've had to emergency brake for an oncoming car on my side of the road, maybe because my position and speed allows more reaction time.... with the brakes loaded there's less chance of getting out of the way as the bike wants to go straight ahead but being realistic, there's much more chance of debris than oncoming cars which you certainly don't need your tyre loaded for. I do appreciate and respect your opinion but in all my years of teaching motorcycling, I've only ever trail braked when I've got it wrong or am approaching a hazard on a bend like a junction or roundabout but I'm already entering slower anyway but trail braking allows a faster entry. Thanks for your comment. ☺
Dart trapdoor if you feel the need to trailbrake you are going too fast for the road conditions. If you do meet an oncoming car you not only have to either try to avoid it or stop but also deal with the excess speed which is why you were trailbraling anyway. I've never heard of that youtuber you linked but if he is advocating that everyone should trail brake on the road that is pretty scary.
@@sean5431 Bret Tkacks is a well respected motorcycle instructor. He instrcuts special operations groups in the US as well as ADV riders. You should check him out.
As for your response, it's almost like you did not read my reply at all. Not only was I riding well within my vision limit, I was riding well enough within it to get out of the way of a vehicle overtaking another vehicle around a corner - and you accuse me of exccess speed? How do you figure that? If i had excess speed in that circumstance, which happened, I wouldn't be hear today.
You seem to have it stuck in your head that trail breaking means using all avaiable braking - and that is as nonensical as saying that hwne braking in a straight line you must use maxumum force.. The pressure I have on the brakes is just enough to shorten the rake and preload the tire in case I DO need to break, we're talking 1% of brake here, balanced by a little throttle. This attitude is maintained up t0 jus beofre the exit (not to be confused with apex), where a simultaneous gradual release of brake and roll on of throttle exits the corner.
It seems to me you only understand trail braking from a track perspective and not a real world road perspecitve. I live in Australia, where we have to be alert for roos bounding in to the road (I'm not joking) so absolutely, being prepared to stop at any time in the corner is a must - and street focused trail braking aids in that.
@@darttrapdoor9842 yeah this is exactly what i was about to say too. trail braking is a safety technique. i don't care for maximum speed or track riding, and i always ride within limits of my vision; but with trailbraking you can demonstrably stop faster if you need to. it's also easier to add brake while leaning if you are trailbraking, and then take evasive maneuver. if you need to add more speed to get out of a bad situation in a corner, trailbraking will not inhibit your ability to do it. but it will absolutely help you if you need to brake - it cuts down reaction time and your front tyre is already loaded.
@@RoadcraftNottingham well if that's your experience, clearly it can't happen. Expressing your opinion is fine but your attitude and apparently lack of experience with trail braking (which provides much better control and feedback in general) is another story. Like someone already said, you don't have to haul ass to benefit from it.
I don't mean to nitpick, because I agree with most of this stuff.
But the bit about chopping the throttle? The only place I am aware of that chopping the throttle is bad are:
1. in the middle of doing 1st gear maneuvers, like a U turn, and clutch engaged.
2. When your rear tire breaks loose on a corner exit due to too much throttle and/or poor road surface. Immediately reduce the throttle, a little, then freeze it. To allow the rear to finish it's thing and come back a bit closer to alignment before hooking back up all a sudden.
3. Speed wobble. Gently reduce throttle and/or gently apply rear brake to gradually increase the weight on the front tire.
If I have missed anything else, please correct me!?
Literally any other time I'm surprised and need to quickly maneuver or slow down the bike, the first thing I do is to chop the throttle (and immediately cover/prep the front brake). Truck appears around the corner? Chop the throttle. Car takes a left turn without looking and I have to maneuver or stop? Chop the throttle. Corner is tighter than I anticipated (and I'm on the throttle, already)? Chop the throttle. And if chopping the throttle puts at least 50% weight on the front, I'll skip the rear brake and use the front, even mid corner!
When you chop the throttle, weight transfers TO the front, and that's a good thing in all these scenarios. And the only way that your rear is going to be so light that this much engine braking will result in a rear slide is if you are hard on the front brake, already. And why would you need to chop the throttle while you're using the front brake!?
Unrelated, but another point. If you overcook your approach and have to brake significantly before turning into a tight corner? Even if you get your speed down low enough by the entry to make the corner, you may still want to trail brake just a tad as you lean the bike in. The reason is so your forks don't extend back up too much. If you have to whip the bike into a sudden turn (at higher than the legal speed limit, due to an honest mistake!) with the forks "neutral," they will compress when you suddenly lean the bike in a tight arc, due to the centrifugal force. And this will make you run a little wide and have to lean the bike more and get closer to the edge of losing traction. Reducing your full on braking to like just 10% while still going perfectly straight, and reducing that little bit down to say 1% drag as you lean the bike in, this little bit will keep this from happening, so you can make the turn with a higher margin of traction. You kinda let it off in a way to match the extra weight that you're putting on it from the turning radius. You don't need to go from 100% to 1%. That's insane. You just need to stay a little bit on the front brake to have enough to release at the beginning of the turn. So you have a bag of sand to swap for the booby-trapped treasure.
Other reason for "trail braking" even when you have only 1% front brake, the brake pads are touching the rotor(s), already. If you do need brake, you can get on them instantly while being smooth. If you don't do that, you will have to wait for the calipers to extend and the pads to settle before you can smoothly control the brakes. But if we are always obeying the speed limit, we often have to stay on the throttle all the way through the corner, anyhow, and covering the brakes while on the throttle is IMO a terrible and pointless idea. So no, you don't get to do that very often if you obey the speed limit, other than downhill.
And going downhill AND obeying the speed limit, we're not really seriously trail braking. We're just covering the front brakes. The major benefits of trail braking only manifest when you take a corner fast and suddenly enough to produce significant and rapid fork compression from lateral G's, right in the beginning of the turn. And that only happens when you are greatly exceeding the speed limit for that corner. There's no way you can learn, practice, or even get a feel for this at safe speeds on public roads. You need sudden and high cornering force to move the forks, and that's impossible to simulate without excessive corner speed.
Sorry this post is so long! I hope some of it made some sense.
The problem with *chopping* the throttle, as in suddenly banging it closed is the rapid deceleration/weight transfer in a bend could overload or "surprise" the front tyre, risking a break away, especially on the UK wet, greasy roads. When you talk about letting the pads settle onto the discs by preloading the brakes you make it sound like the pads are 3 inches away from the disc in the first place, lol. There's no discernable difference apart from the fact you've already started braking but if you've planned/read the road ahead enough you won't need the brakes at all in the first place. I've followed loads of "christmas tree light" riders and they're honestly no quicker than me on public roads but I'll bet my passenger is a lot happier than theirs. I did mention downhill braking etc, maybe you got bored and skip-watched 😂 ☺. Thanks for your long comment
@@RoadcraftNottingham To reiterate, I agree that trail braking is not necessary on public roads! In fact I reckon it's nearly impossible to enter a corner fast enough to need trail braking on the street. You don't have a track to yourself. Just a 10 foot wide lane that will look like a ribbon if you're entering it fast enough to need trail braking! Even the best riders won't be able to push as hard, if you make their race track 10 feet wide! I would venture that less than 0.1% of riders have the combination of skill AND the disregard for human life to even do this on the street. (edit: most people who exceed traction in a corner on the street? They're going to do it while accelerating. That limit is much easier to sneak up on.)
Yeah, on bikes the minimum space between the pad and the rotor is 1 mm. If in spec, there should be at least 1mm of retraction. This doesn't sounds like a lot, but on the brake lever it's quite a bit of your travel/takeup. If you need to brake while cornering hard, you gotta start gentle and build up as quickly as the conditions allow. This means you have to take this travel up as quick as possible but not "run into" the rotor suddenly. Gotta settle them down gently then build up pressure. So it does add some delay.
"The problem with chopping the throttle, as in suddenly banging it closed is the rapid deceleration/weight transfer in a bend could overload or "surprise" the front tyre, risking a break away..."
I have to disagree with you here, though, mate. When you put more weight on the front, that's not the bad part. The risk of chopping the throttle is the reduction of weight on the rear while simultaneously asking the rear to not only turn but to brake, as well. But since you were already ON the throttle, you had traction to spare for accelerating, and you have some weight bias on the rear to start with. There's almost no way to do this so suddenly that you lose rear traction (and it's never going to cause you to lose front traction!) But the kicker is that when you change from accelerating (or even maintenance throttle for constant speed) to decelerating, you instantly do not need as high of a lean angle. So you will automatically straighten the bike a little as you do this, and you will create more and more margin of safety and traction as you brake and slow.
I have been surprised in a corner many a time, seeing a big truck coming the other way, seeing debris, etc. And the first thing I do is chop the throttle and get my fingers prepping the brake. It's just base instinct, really. And it has always been a good instinct, so far. Nothing wrong with it, AFAIC.
@@mildyproductive9726 we'll have to agree to disagree on the overloading the front bit. Watch the california superbike school regarding survival reactions or "SRs" then I challenge you to ride my fave road in rainy/greasy Derbyshire and then chop the throttle mid-bend... I'll help pick you up. 😉
@@RoadcraftNottingham I searched and I don't think I found the right video. If you provide a link, I would look forward to watching it!
@@mildyproductive9726 it's a twist of the wrist 2 by Keith code.
I'm really suprised that nearly all instructors agree, I'd have thought the sheer number of unknowns on the road would convince anyone regardless of perceived skill. Marc M has reactions like a cat and is unbelievable to watch on track but unfortunately has a broken arm due to his own actions, the resulting gravel trap and interaction with his own bike. All of which are far more forgiving than the oncoming HGVs in your short video...
The only instructor I've spoken to who doesn't agree was a track racer with an inflated ego so I suppose it's all instructors. ☺
Most instructors are teaching new people, and there is only so much new information you can hold at once before it sinks in, as such it is normally called an advanced thing to learn.
@@wobblysauce the point I'm making is even advanced/police/ex racers on public roads shouldn't be going so fast as to not be able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear so trail braking still isn't needed unless their speed's too fast and the bend's been misjudged
Not saying that also, as that should be common sense... but we know a few that have that bit missing.
But in the end, it is what you feel more comfortable doing and that everything has a place, and there is no hard line where one method starts and another stops. Some days you may do one method, another day something else if you still get to the destination.
That said most would overrate their skills and not leave that margin of room for that triple gravel scenario, more than take it easy for a bend or 3, but as soon as that first part is seen it is a reminder to watch for other obstacles like that video the other day simple spill on the roundabout.
Excellent explanation. I've been riding 38 years without this trail braking technique, and never needed it. I only use a little bit of rear brake in for instance hair pin turns, never the front. As you said the bike will try to right itself, when one applies the front brake.
Number one riding tip: Ride defensive and adjust to the circumstances.
100% agree
Downhill hair-pin bends are where l frequently use gentle trail braking, just to steady the bike
Like I mentioned. ☺
good video .just ride from a to b be safe .
Wow…there is a lot of misunderstanding here. I’m a fairly new rider but I’ve trained daily, riding throughout the winter in Sweden, including trail braking on wet and dirty country roads. While I was training for safety on the road, I was also training for being able to go fast on track. They are the same thing - full control of the bike. I’m an engineer so I fully understand the basics of bike geometry, tire loading, grip and such. The fundamental fact is that if you need to start your turn, slow down or stop in a turn or change your line; then the optimal way to do that is already having the front brake engaged.
Start your turn: if you let off the brake before turning in, you have to wait for the suspension to settle and you will never get as much grip as when the tire is already loaded. Also bear in mind that counter-steering actually unweights the front end - so losing traction on turn in is much more likely without trail braking.
Slow down or stop in a turn: there are many reasons you may need to do this including a vehicle slowing in front of you or a tightening radius turn. The worst strategy for this is of course not slowing enough for the turn but Slow, Press and Roll puts you in the next worse position. As soon as you add maintenance throttle the front is unweighted compared to trail breaking, if you are starting to accelerate it’s even worse. Here the main factor is the time it takes to flex the front tire and spread out the contact patch. If you get on the brakes suddenly the tire will react as if it is hard as a rock.
Change your line: we need to be able to do this to avoid road hazards. If the front is slightly loaded from trail braking you will simply have more grip.
The trail braking technique was made popular first by racing schools and subsequently by less knowledgeable you-tubers, but the physics are undeniable. The application to road riding is simply that, with sensible use of the technique, you are trying to never approach the limit of traction allowed by the geometry of the bike and tire loading.
This is not to say that everyone should just go out on highly trafficked roads and use trail braking. Like most riding skills, it should be practiced in a safe environment. You might ride a lifetime on the road without trail braking and never crash - but consistent and moderate use of trail braking will keep you more safe. If you want to ride on track, you should stay in the beginners group until you are comfortable and confident with trail breaking.
"Unweighting the front tire causes you to lose grip." As long as you unweight it before you lean the bike, the bike is neutrally balanced. Even if the forks move more, the bike is still neutrally balanced. And you need both tires to grip in a corner. It's almost impossible to lose front traction before the rear, except when you're still on the front brake. It's very possible to lose rear traction first, in a corner, if you're still engine braking too much, hence the reason to roll to maintenance throttle before or as you lean the bike in.
Changing line: steering the bike changes your line. The main reason braking would be better is if you turned in too early. If you turn in early, then you can't make the corner at your initial lean angle, because you run out of space to the inside, so leaning more will run you off the inside of your lane. So you continue to brake in the first part. But you're only in this situation because you made the mistake of turning in too early. Racers can purposely turn in much early because they're on a wider track. And they will do this to pass other riders midcorner. Or in some corners, they can shave lap time by turning in earlier while still braking. This is a dangerous/advanced way to get through certain corners quicker, but it only works if the track is wide enough and the bike is powerful enough to accelerate very hard on the exit. You simply don't want to take this kind of line in a narrow street corner. No benefit.
If you regularly trail brake in street in every corner, you're just practicing what you do on the track. If you increased your entry speed, you'd find you have to quick flick the bike to stay between the lines. There's no reason to trail off brakes beyond entry point when you need to lean the bike all the way in less than a tenth of a second.
And next time you're at the track and it's not too busy, you can try this. Erase the left 2/3rd's of the track. Keep the bike within 10 feet of the right edge in some of your corners. Notice that now you need to lean the bike much quicker if you want to take these corners as fast as you safely can.
If you are good at quick flick AND trail braking, you'll be a better rider. In track you'll find some corners are faster if you quick flick, some if you enter earlier and trail off the brakes.
In street riding, the track is so narrow, most all will be the quickflick type.... if you wanted to take them particularly fast. Nothing wrong with braking if you just want to take them slow and safe. But that won't help you if you accidentally enter one too fast. Doing the track thing will show you this. When you don't have the luxury of turning in so darn early, you'll find you're still braking in a straight line beyond the point where you usually turn in... and then you'll have to flick the bike so quick and deep so late, there's no space/time for continued braking while leaned. Try it. This is a test in a safe environment for you to prove that trailbraking is or isn't going to save you at higher entry speeds on the street.
On street, you have maybe 12 feet of track on a righthand corner. You have maybe only 5-6 feet of track on a lefthander. There's no room to fit a Euhler spiral. At high speeds, leaning the bike over in a blink of an eye will barely keep the bike in your lane, as it is.
Russ the motorhome owner waving at other motorhome @4.30 forgot you was on the bike Russ
Sh*t! 😂 😂 😂 I'm trying to find another reason I did that but can't 😂... Unless he'd made a movement towards the kerb.
FINALLY! Trail braking, even the body head bike tactics could lead in more trouble on public roads imho.. track/ closed course is different than the road..
Don't haul ass on public roads-PERIOD!
Thank you for your great insight about trail braking. I am a newbie, and get a lot of pressure when told by the "pros" that I really need to trail brake in bends or corners... and I really dont understand why one needs to use race track techniques or skills on public roads as the conditions are very much different! I wonder what your opinion is on rev matching... another thing that I always hear about amongst the "pros"
This is exactly why I did this upload.. For you people put under pressure by the know it all brigade. Rev matching can help the down selection by reducing the bang you can sometimes get in the gearbox. Thanks for watching.
Any riding technique is another tool in your toolbox. Less tools, less means to solve a more difficult situation. For example, I find some track riding techniques VERY useful in winter riding with little traction... Learn trail braking, so you can use it when necessary.
@@RoadcraftNottingham I would like a video from you about rev matching
@@lucsalander There was two videos on this channel about rev-matching and gear shifting:
th-cam.com/video/PdrUj1KqNRI/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/0u9R3h9iHwM/w-d-xo.html
I highly recommend them.
@@lucsalander th-cam.com/video/0u9R3h9iHwM/w-d-xo.html
Fab vid !!! and everything you said is true ... but unfortunately your wise words don't massage some peoples egos ..so you might as well be whistling in the wind ...😆😆😆..I completely agree...I don't want getting back home after a ride out to be a .."matter of luck"..some people use "luck" as a style of riding ....🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🙈...ps.i love that road down to Matlock Bath ...fantastic..and proves your point ..you'd be crazy trying to trail brake on that road ..!!!
I suppose I'm not trying to convince the "sheep" out there, they already clap like seals when some egotist so called "instructor" belches out rubbish 😂
I'm letting my loyal followers and people wanting to genuinely improve themselves know that they shouldn't be worried about seeing all these pro trail braking uploads and they're not doing anything wrong by not braking into corners. Thanks for your comment.
@@RoadcraftNottingham well I was thinking that I might try it .. but for all the reasons you said I’ve decided not to try it !!! Like you said .. it’s ok for the track , but definitely a no no for the road !!👏👏👌
Russ, when I first got my endorsement and escorted to get my bike (four plus years and I still don't have one), I took a deep interest in Keith Code and his courses. I've never gone to one of his courses, would love to, but he basically said the same thing, years ago about trail breaking r. Don't do it on the road. From everything you said it will sounded like Keith's video. He gets a little more into it, especially at higher speeds and the results of trying to trail brake into a corner (not a pretty picture).
I really suggest that your students, and anyone who watched your channel, search TH-cam for Keith's video.
Edited to add the link to Twist of the Wrist II.
th-cam.com/video/dgOPZWNswvY/w-d-xo.html
Even on the track not everyone advocates it. Simon from motovudu, for example, advocates getting your braking and downshifts done first, turning in on a closed throttle, initially picking up the gas to drive you through the corner, finally pushing the bike upright as you're existing before getting on full gas for as much of the straight as you can. In fact I know some very rapid road riders (bike testers) who advocate turning in on a closed throttle and adding just a bit of positive throttle to maintain the turn, before picking up acceleration once the limit point is running and you're looking to pick up speed as you exit the bend. None of which is at odds with IAM/roadcraft doctrine afaict
Your lesson on not braking was great. It was well reinforced by the Bikesafe course I did in 2018 as well. I rarely brake on my bike unless I'm stopping. It's all about planning my ride, anticipating hazards and constantly asking myself "what if...?". I've never bothered to try trail braking at all. Great video again. Thanks.
Spot on and you're welcome. ☺
I've been riding since 1977 and I have never used trail braking at all ... until last year when I thought I'd give it a try. It may be my lack of experience with it but, honestly, I couldn't make it work for me. I found that getting the right brake pressure and fighting a bike that wanted to stand, while entering a corner (too) quickly all added to the cognitive load right at the time when you need to be concentrating on what's happening ahead with road surfaces, vanishing point, oncoming traffic etc. Really not worth the extra risk IMO.
Two words for you...... Spot...... On. ☺