I have always liked these engines for many reasons . I have maybe 7 or 8 of these from my childhood days in the early 70's . The funny thing I remember is when it would jump the track , it would keep running and mow down poles, buildings , and any thing it ran over !
Super. My railroad never used C-Liners, but I operate other locomotives with the same drivetrain, and with heavy maintenance, they can operate quite well, just not as quietly. Also, just so it isn't just a C-Liner, this could be a Fairbanks Morse CFA20-4. C = Consolidation Line, F = Freight, A = cab unit, 2,000 hp, 4 axles. The infamous Atlas N scale 5 axle C-Liner is an FM CPA24-5, C = C-Liner, A = cab unit, 2,400 hp, 5 axles. Hello from the Tracy Mountain Railway in Colorado. 💙 T.E.N.
The history of this model was a nice bit of research--but a bit depressing, as well. I worked in consumer products for much of my career and witnessed product "cost reduction" first hand. I called it "baby stepping to the cliff." Testing would show that each new version was only slightly (and hence acceptably) worse than the last, but the new version was never compared to the performance of the original. Eventually all the little steps would result in a product that was substantially inferior. This seems to be one of those cases, or something close to it. In any case, I always enjoy seeing you bring these old locos back to life. Cheers from Wisconsin!
I agree with you there. Sometimes cost reduction can be done without reducing the quality and features, but more often than not results in a worse product. The last production did at least turn things around for the chassis, but the original Rivarossi model really was the best one.
Back in the mid to early 80s, I bought the AHM a&b Santa Fe. Also, I bought a set of AHC trolley, A&B. Both sets cost less than 20.00 each new. I still have both sets today. Videos are posted if interested
Great video! I've had a bunch of those C Liners. In fact I still have four or five of them stuffed away in my storage draws. I got my first one back in the sixties and ran it for years. It's a shame to see all the cost cutting things that were done through the years. It was an inexpensive engine, but it was originally made pretty well and held up to a lot of abuse. It served me well back when the Athearn blue boxes were too expensive for a kid like me. Thanks for the memories.
I had one used it for about a month until I decided to run it it backwards one day and the coupling dug into the track and ripped the whole back end out
Oh , Man did I love this...I have this loco as one of my first when I was a kid .. I save so much to get it and to me it was expensive .. I loved its detail .. I think its the same mid 70s one. Oh man ... I never took it apart as I love it so much as part of childhood I didnt want to do any harm , so you showed me what its like inside.. I dont think I could ever do what you did ... I usually do more harm.. This was so good .. Like it was my loco I was watching .. Thank you so much for this and your fantastic way of explaining .. I cherish this loco because it was my first...
Thanks I really like how you repair things. I bought a pair of the Life-Like proto 1000 C-Liners from a friend at my Model Railroad Club. The Life-Like engines look great and run even better and are much quieter. Mine are decorated for the "Pennsy" and I hope to add Train-Phone antennas some day.
One factor in the motor noise might be the excessive axial play of the motor shaft. It looks like either a thrust washer was left off during re-assembly or it needs an additional one. Then again, replacing the cheap 3-pole motor with a similar sized can motor in the same housing would improve performance. Regarding the drive wheels, were you intending to install the rubber "tires" on the two grooved wheels, or just swap them out for a couple of "proper" wheels salvaged from another model? The C-Liner was not a good seller at all for Fairbanks-Morse, with only a handful of roads in the Northeast and Canada operating a few. Something I don't think most people realize about this particular model ... there's no way for an HO scale crew to board the engine! There are no rungs below the ladders, presumably to accommodate wide truck swinging on "train set" oval track.
In this case it was the motor making most of the noise. Early versions used a ball bearing thrust washer held in place by a metal worm, and a long screw was placed inside the chassis to be removed and driven into the worm for fine tuning and maintenance. That was expensive and complicated, so they changed to a nylon worm with a regular washer. I did install new tires in the grooved wheels. The new tires are transparent and can’t be seen easily.
I've taken two of these and consolidated them into one running unit, I believe mine is the second version shown with the metal nose-railings. Very interesting prototype, the cab is particularly interesting. It seems they all wobble, probably something to do with the vertically mounted motor, though I love the sound they make while going along. Very nice to see where it all started for you!
Nice video! My first C-Liner model ever to have was also a Santa Fe. It was produced by Mehano and has all wheel pickup and drive. I absolytely love the model, it is heavy and pulls great.
Glad to see a C liner getting some love! I did a repower project on an NYC C liner not too long ago, and despite the out of proportion shell, really like these engines as well. With pilot modifications they don't look too bad and like you mentioned are fantastic project engines. Look forward to the next one!
I'd advocate you add super magnets to replace the Alnico ones when/if you rewind the motor. If you do that, you might as well add DCC with a stay alive unit. In cosmetic items you might want to 1) Close that hole in the pilot - it looks like a "Shark mouth"! 2) Drill out that hump that represents the dynamic brake fan aft of the cab and cut and install scale wire mesh glued to the bottom of the hole. Paint the mesh black and voiila!
This model was the first loco I ever had, but I thought mine was an E unit. Got to find it to make sure! It ran well for a while, but wasn't prototypical, so I put it away and started buying Athearn and Mantua F units. Your video was very good! I wouldn't know the first thing about taking it apart. I think I got it in either1975 or 76.
Great video!! nice production, good focus, etc. I just tried to convert one of these to DCC but the motor acted as if it had a mechanical bind of sorts...ran better on straight DC. Any info on repowering with a can motor? I suspect the decoder doesn't like the older motor.
I'd take the motor apart and use the bottom plate as a mount for the new motor. Most new motors that will fit have a 2mm shaft or smaller, so you might need a 3/32" (2.4mm) shaft adapter for the worm to fit. Once you have those parts figured out, glue the motor down with epoxy or a strong bath sealant while making sure it's centered just right on the old motor plate, then press the worm on once the motor is set.
@@the-trojan NWSL might have a shaft adapter that will work, or one can be made from brass tubing. If made from tubing, you can cut the piece to length and mount in in a drill or lathe, then while that's turning, hold a 2mm drill bit to it and slowly drill out the center until you can fit it to the motor shaft. This is a bit of a trial and error process, but I've made adapter this way before with decent results.
I think for that noise, if I were to guess, I'd say maybe its the field magnet pieces touching the armature somewhere. You could probably dust some paint over them, run the motor for a little bit, open it back up and find the spot it's rubbing and file away to give clearance.
It was definitely the sloppy bearings in this case, but thanks for the suggestion! When the hole is larger than the shaft (this one must be at least a 0.25mm difference), the shaft can rattle from side to side as the poles switch.
If you have an old motor laying around on your work bench with the same diameter shaft, you can use it as a guide to repair the slop. First, oil the old motor shaft before temporarily installing it. Next, put a dot of loctite brand super glue around the shaft at the bearing surface, smearing the glue around it on both sides of the bearing plate in order to make a 'new' bearing. Next, use a quick cure liquid to freeze it all in place. Then, in a couple of seconds after the super glue is cured, break the motor shaft free and check the rotation. After this process is done, remove the old motor and file down any sharp edges. Finally, reinstall the good motor, and it will operate much better. Also, adding a very thin thrust washer to the shaft near the bearing surface may help tighten up the (play) or the slackness needed for the motor to rotate efficiently, especially if there's way too much 'vacillation' when the motor is under a load.
I think I need to pick up a few to pull mixed consists of never existed rolling stock from all decades just to be an in your face to the rivet counters that always insult anyone who is just having fun with electric trains . It got so bad that I just walked away one of the biggest layouts in the state.
They exist in every hobby! Sometimes it’s best to just walk away and have fun with it your way. I remember someone criticizing me for building a Hobbytown kit when next to modern plastic models it was nothing but an “ancient glob of pot metal.”
Had one of these back in the early 70s ran well enough but no low speed. Also the brass tube was an excellent idea however always use a drill bit or a round needle file to deburr the inside diameter and taper the end of the shaft it will allow for easier insertion of the rod and on rotating parts make for smoother running and prevent shaft damage.
Several UK based train channels are playing with a remagnitizing machine. I keep wanting to figure out how it works and try to build one. I think it’s just two electromagnets with a space between them to put the iron magnet you want to refurbish.
I know the ones from the 60’s did, but they did change to smaller flanges at some point. Best advice I can offer there is to look closely at photos if searching online.
Some grades of nylon are dyed to differentiate more easily. I’m not sure if it was the same back in the 70’s, but to my understanding, red nylon is usually a higher grade meant for mechanical parts like gears and bearings where friction and heat buildup should be reduced as much as possible. Roco is the only one I know of that’s consistently used it while most others have stuck with more common and likely less expensive grades.
Great video.Have a question about a C liner I acquired to pick your memory a little? This one has a 5 pole ball bearing motor that has a lot of end play between the worm that looks like a large nylon worm that seems odd to me being it has the ball bearing cup that when the worm is pushed out because of the 1/16 slop. I was thinking the worm needs to be pressed in to take up the slop ,but unsure if this is not just normal. .I messed with many of these years ago ,but do not remember ever seeing but a metal worm with a set screw that was nice and shiny instead of a black plastic.
It could be that it's from a point where they were changing over to a plastic worm but were still using the old design, or maybe someone lost the original metal worm somewhere along the way. The worm should be pressed on far enough to hold the ball bearing assembly together (as long as the ball bearings are still there anyway).
I have one of these that I’ve had (2nd hand) since the 70’s. It was noisy then and is still noisy. Not much left on the brushes so it doesn’t get much track time. Maybe time to re-motor.
One of my first eBay purchases I regretted. The Milwaukee Road paint job is awful. It was the same time the Proto 1000 C liner came out and mine hasn't seen the track since. Then again...
@@DarthSantaFe Just making a joke. Fly wheels are supposed to prevent sudden acceleration and stopping. Wheel slip because of bad tires does the same thing.
My first engine of each steam and diesel in ho was a crummy old Bachmann Chessie F9 and a Model Power tender driven 2-8-0. My first all together was O gauge Thomas and a Lionel TMCC sound equipped NYC FT. I still have my O gauge stuff but I don't do O anymore. I am exclusively HO now and have begun getting into brass, with several engines with DCC and sound.
My first model was an N scale PCC trolley from Bachmann, and my first one in HO was a Life-Like GP38. The gears in the PCC fell apart, but the GP still (kind of) runs!
First gift: A Lionel 4-6-2 Pacific steam locomotive train set with matching cupola caboose, five train cars, track and transformer. My first train. The set, including the track and transformer, are still in use and operating on my railroad. First bought: A Mantua/Tyco Plymouth CR-4 center cab diesel hydraulic switcher, bought at Clark Air Force base Px (Huge military Walmart) in the Philippines in 1968, when I was eight. It came with a plastic clamshell case and cost me the princely sum of $3.95, and still runs great to this day. 💙 T.E.N.
I have always liked these engines for many reasons . I have maybe 7 or 8 of these from my childhood days in the early 70's . The funny thing I remember is when it would jump the track , it would keep running and mow down poles, buildings , and any thing it ran over !
Super. My railroad never used C-Liners, but I operate other locomotives with the same drivetrain, and with heavy maintenance, they can operate quite well, just not as quietly. Also, just so it isn't just a C-Liner, this could be a Fairbanks Morse CFA20-4. C = Consolidation Line, F = Freight, A = cab unit, 2,000 hp, 4 axles. The infamous Atlas N scale 5 axle C-Liner is an FM CPA24-5, C = C-Liner, A = cab unit, 2,400 hp, 5 axles. Hello from the Tracy Mountain Railway in Colorado. 💙 T.E.N.
There was a good MR article about chopping the ugly front and super detailing these.
The history of this model was a nice bit of research--but a bit depressing, as well. I worked in consumer products for much of my career and witnessed product "cost reduction" first hand. I called it "baby stepping to the cliff." Testing would show that each new version was only slightly (and hence acceptably) worse than the last, but the new version was never compared to the performance of the original. Eventually all the little steps would result in a product that was substantially inferior. This seems to be one of those cases, or something close to it. In any case, I always enjoy seeing you bring these old locos back to life. Cheers from Wisconsin!
I agree with you there. Sometimes cost reduction can be done without reducing the quality and features, but more often than not results in a worse product. The last production did at least turn things around for the chassis, but the original Rivarossi model really was the best one.
Back in the mid to early 80s, I bought the AHM a&b Santa Fe. Also, I bought a set of AHC trolley, A&B. Both sets cost less than 20.00 each new. I still have both sets today. Videos are posted if interested
Great video! I've had a bunch of those C Liners. In fact I still have four or five of them stuffed away in my storage draws. I got my first one back in the sixties and ran it for years. It's a shame to see all the cost cutting things that were done through the years. It was an inexpensive engine, but it was originally made pretty well and held up to a lot of abuse. It served me well back when the Athearn blue boxes were too expensive for a kid like me. Thanks for the memories.
I have one of these painted for the New Haven. Hasn't run in years. Maybe I should get to fixing it someday
I had one used it for about a month until I decided to run it it backwards one day and the coupling dug into the track and ripped the whole back end out
Oh , Man did I love this...I have this loco as one of my first when I was a kid .. I save so much to get it and to me it was expensive .. I loved its detail .. I think its the same mid 70s one. Oh man ... I never took it apart as I love it so much as part of childhood I didnt want to do any harm , so you showed me what its like inside.. I dont think I could ever do what you did ... I usually do more harm.. This was so good .. Like it was my loco I was watching .. Thank you so much for this and your fantastic way of explaining ..
I cherish this loco because it was my first...
We can like the latest and greatest all we want, but sometimes it’s these cheaper models that hold the best memories for us!
Thanks I really like how you repair things. I bought a pair of the Life-Like proto 1000 C-Liners from a friend at my Model Railroad Club. The Life-Like engines look great and run even better and are much quieter. Mine are decorated for the "Pennsy" and I hope to add Train-Phone antennas some day.
One factor in the motor noise might be the excessive axial play of the motor shaft. It looks like either a thrust washer was left off during re-assembly or it needs an additional one. Then again, replacing the cheap 3-pole motor with a similar sized can motor in the same housing would improve performance.
Regarding the drive wheels, were you intending to install the rubber "tires" on the two grooved wheels, or just swap them out for a couple of "proper" wheels salvaged from another model?
The C-Liner was not a good seller at all for Fairbanks-Morse, with only a handful of roads in the Northeast and Canada operating a few. Something I don't think most people realize about this particular model ... there's no way for an HO scale crew to board the engine! There are no rungs below the ladders, presumably to accommodate wide truck swinging on "train set" oval track.
In this case it was the motor making most of the noise. Early versions used a ball bearing thrust washer held in place by a metal worm, and a long screw was placed inside the chassis to be removed and driven into the worm for fine tuning and maintenance. That was expensive and complicated, so they changed to a nylon worm with a regular washer.
I did install new tires in the grooved wheels. The new tires are transparent and can’t be seen easily.
Another excellent piece of work. Thanks for the ongoing education.
I've taken two of these and consolidated them into one running unit, I believe mine is the second version shown with the metal nose-railings. Very interesting prototype, the cab is particularly interesting. It seems they all wobble, probably something to do with the vertically mounted motor, though I love the sound they make while going along.
Very nice to see where it all started for you!
Nice video! My first C-Liner model ever to have was also a Santa Fe. It was produced by Mehano and has all wheel pickup and drive. I absolytely love the model, it is heavy and pulls great.
Awesome video. Very informative thank you
Glad to see a C liner getting some love! I did a repower project on an NYC C liner not too long ago, and despite the out of proportion shell, really like these engines as well. With pilot modifications they don't look too bad and like you mentioned are fantastic project engines. Look forward to the next one!
I'd advocate you add super magnets to replace the Alnico ones when/if you rewind the motor. If you do that, you might as well add DCC with a stay alive unit. In cosmetic items you might want to 1) Close that hole in the pilot - it looks like a "Shark mouth"! 2) Drill out that hump that represents the dynamic brake fan aft of the cab and cut and install scale wire mesh glued to the bottom of the hole. Paint the mesh black and voiila!
Nice C-liner♐️👍
This model was the first loco I ever had, but I thought mine was an E unit. Got to find it to make sure! It ran well for a while, but wasn't prototypical, so I put it away and started buying Athearn and Mantua F units. Your video was very good! I wouldn't know the first thing about taking it apart. I think I got it in either1975 or 76.
Great video!! nice production, good focus, etc. I just tried to convert one of these to DCC but the motor acted as if it had a mechanical bind of sorts...ran better on straight DC. Any info on repowering with a can motor? I suspect the decoder doesn't like the older motor.
I'd take the motor apart and use the bottom plate as a mount for the new motor. Most new motors that will fit have a 2mm shaft or smaller, so you might need a 3/32" (2.4mm) shaft adapter for the worm to fit. Once you have those parts figured out, glue the motor down with epoxy or a strong bath sealant while making sure it's centered just right on the old motor plate, then press the worm on once the motor is set.
@@DarthSantaFe where might i get a shaft adapter?
@@the-trojan NWSL might have a shaft adapter that will work, or one can be made from brass tubing. If made from tubing, you can cut the piece to length and mount in in a drill or lathe, then while that's turning, hold a 2mm drill bit to it and slowly drill out the center until you can fit it to the motor shaft. This is a bit of a trial and error process, but I've made adapter this way before with decent results.
@@DarthSantaFe OK Thanks!
I think for that noise, if I were to guess, I'd say maybe its the field magnet pieces touching the armature somewhere. You could probably dust some paint over them, run the motor for a little bit, open it back up and find the spot it's rubbing and file away to give clearance.
It was definitely the sloppy bearings in this case, but thanks for the suggestion! When the hole is larger than the shaft (this one must be at least a 0.25mm difference), the shaft can rattle from side to side as the poles switch.
If you have an old motor laying around on your work bench with the same diameter shaft, you can use it as a guide to repair the slop.
First, oil the old motor shaft before temporarily installing it. Next, put a dot of loctite brand super glue around the shaft at the bearing surface, smearing the glue around it on both sides of the bearing plate in order to make a 'new' bearing.
Next, use a quick cure liquid to freeze it all in place. Then, in a couple of seconds after the super glue is cured, break the motor shaft free and check the rotation. After this process is done, remove the old motor and file down any sharp edges. Finally, reinstall the good motor, and it will operate much better.
Also, adding a very thin thrust washer to the shaft near the bearing surface may help tighten up the (play) or the slackness needed for the motor to rotate efficiently, especially if there's way too much 'vacillation' when the motor is under a load.
I think I need to pick up a few to pull mixed consists of never existed rolling stock from all decades just to be an in your face to the rivet counters that always insult anyone who is just having fun with electric trains . It got so bad that I just walked away one of the biggest layouts in the state.
They exist in every hobby! Sometimes it’s best to just walk away and have fun with it your way. I remember someone criticizing me for building a Hobbytown kit when next to modern plastic models it was nothing but an “ancient glob of pot metal.”
Great job on this! I have one where it appears the magnet is pretty shot, I will try a new one as you suggest.
Had one of these back in the early 70s ran well enough but no low speed. Also the brass tube was an excellent idea however always use a drill bit or a round needle file to deburr the inside diameter and taper the end of the shaft it will allow for easier insertion of the rod and on rotating parts make for smoother running and prevent shaft damage.
Several UK based train channels are playing with a remagnitizing machine. I keep wanting to figure out how it works and try to build one. I think it’s just two electromagnets with a space between them to put the iron magnet you want to refurbish.
@Darth Santa Fe - do you know if the middle1970's C liners have the deep flanges on their wheels which would cause trouble with code 83 track?
I know the ones from the 60’s did, but they did change to smaller flanges at some point. Best advice I can offer there is to look closely at photos if searching online.
which plastic glue did you use to fix the motor?
Do you know why some companies used red gears?
Some grades of nylon are dyed to differentiate more easily. I’m not sure if it was the same back in the 70’s, but to my understanding, red nylon is usually a higher grade meant for mechanical parts like gears and bearings where friction and heat buildup should be reduced as much as possible. Roco is the only one I know of that’s consistently used it while most others have stuck with more common and likely less expensive grades.
@@DarthSantaFe Interesting. I know 70's and early 80's Atlas N scale used it too.
@@EdwinsTrains Roco was making most of the HO and N diesels for Atlas at the time, so that makes sense that they would also have red gears.
Great video.Have a question about a C liner I acquired to pick your memory a little? This one has a 5 pole ball bearing motor that has a lot of end play between the worm that looks like a large nylon worm that seems odd to me being it has the ball bearing cup that when the worm is pushed out because of the 1/16 slop. I was thinking the worm needs to be pressed in to take up the slop ,but unsure if this is not just normal. .I messed with many of these years ago ,but do not remember ever seeing but a metal worm with a set screw that was nice and shiny instead of a black plastic.
It could be that it's from a point where they were changing over to a plastic worm but were still using the old design, or maybe someone lost the original metal worm somewhere along the way. The worm should be pressed on far enough to hold the ball bearing assembly together (as long as the ball bearings are still there anyway).
I have one of these that I’ve had (2nd hand) since the 70’s. It was noisy then and is still noisy. Not much left on the brushes so it doesn’t get much track time. Maybe time to re-motor.
I remotored one of these in my recent mass repair video. It was a big improvement and not too hard to do!
One of my first eBay purchases I regretted. The Milwaukee Road paint job is awful. It was the same time the Proto 1000 C liner came out and mine hasn't seen the track since.
Then again...
The Proto 1000 version really is a great model! Mine looks great and has been totally trouble free since day 1.
The paint I thought look good
Bad tires are a makeshift flywheel. LOL.
?
@@DarthSantaFe Just making a joke. Fly wheels are supposed to prevent sudden acceleration and stopping. Wheel slip because of bad tires does the same thing.
@@jimflagg4009 Ah, ok. I was thinking of sticking a tire onto the motor shaft to work like a flywheel. :)
Interesting, What was your first model? Mine was a Life Like f7 and one of those Bachmann 0-6-0s. I've gotten much higher standards since.
My first engine of each steam and diesel in ho was a crummy old Bachmann Chessie F9 and a Model Power tender driven 2-8-0. My first all together was O gauge Thomas and a Lionel TMCC sound equipped NYC FT.
I still have my O gauge stuff but I don't do O anymore. I am exclusively HO now and have begun getting into brass, with several engines with DCC and sound.
My first model was an N scale PCC trolley from Bachmann, and my first one in HO was a Life-Like GP38. The gears in the PCC fell apart, but the GP still (kind of) runs!
I. Got high standards but little. Money to work with
First gift: A Lionel 4-6-2 Pacific steam locomotive train set with matching cupola caboose, five train cars, track and transformer. My first train. The set, including the track and transformer, are still in use and operating on my railroad. First bought: A Mantua/Tyco Plymouth CR-4 center cab diesel hydraulic switcher, bought at Clark Air Force base Px (Huge military Walmart) in the Philippines in 1968, when I was eight. It came with a plastic clamshell case and cost me the princely sum of $3.95, and still runs great to this day. 💙 T.E.N.
Is this the Darth Santa Fe from Model Railroader forums?
Yup!
@@DarthSantaFe Not many have that user name!
Coffee grinder motors, hee hee. John
strange locomotive
rivarossi bell type motor was better
Don't messed it up. Don't rewind it quit plcking it apart. It's fine for. What it is
GET RID OF THAT BOT COMMENT
Don’t worry, I always report and delete those as soon as I see them.
@@DarthSantaFe bot comments suck also cool video
Nice C-liner♐️👍