@Hold and Modify - Big fan of your videos, they are always genuinely useful. However, there's a flaw with this video - BOTH of those motherboards are Commodore era boards. The one you stated was a Commodore board was a 1D1 revision board (generally considered the best of the bunch). The so-called ESCOM board is a 1D4 board - which is not an ESCOM board at all, it's another Commodore era board, and the one most commonly in need of timing fixes (after which it's usually fine). the ESCOM era boards are the Rev 2B boards (which are very problematic). Some ESCOM-era A1200s shipped with 1D4 boards because there were a load of pre-assembled boards that they inherited from Commodore's assets, so they got used before production of the 2B ramped up.
@@HoldandModify Happy to help. Also, FYI - I've got an Indivision AGA Mk3 as well which I use on my 1D1-based 1200 (so, the same board you moved yours onto) and it has always worked great, without any of the issues you had on the other board. So with a bit of luck your one should now perform as it's supposed to.
@@chrisgreenisc2I think you’ll find that ESCOM fixed the timing issues on their produced 1D4 and 2B boards. If you look there are no E123C, E123R, E125C and E125R on the board whatsoever. I remember at the time why my ACA accelerators worked on my newly bought ESCOM 1200, whilst owners on Commodore 1D4 and 2B boards were getting black screens.
I have a PAL Commodore-branded A1200 with a 1.D.4 board. However, there are no HP chips on there, only Commodore, Motorola, VLSI and a few others. Q could be on to something there.
@@cullmaster7361 Yes, you are right about ESCOM fixing the timing issues on most (not all, as it was a retrofix, some got missed) of the 1D4 boards they used. The 2B boards usually don't need timing fixes as HP never populated the offending points on the board. Alas, 2B boards seem to have a whole heap of other issues all of their own thanks to being designed for corrected chips that never happened.
I'm one of the ones who commented on your original video, and had similar findings with my board. Same thing - HP Chipset. But when I put it on another A1200, non HP chip, it works. I've just also chalked it up to some timing issue on the other board. I was worried initially my other board had a problem, because at the time it was the only A1200 I had. Of course, now I have... let's just say more than one (I don't have a problem... you have a problem!) and I haven't tested The MK3 in every board, but it works in other machines fine. Something weird with this short board version and the MK3 - they just don't work well together.
My 1st Computer Commodore 16 kept breaking so got C64 solid computer then A500 got me through college as Wordsworth helpled me do work on time with my Dyslexia, I couldn't afford a Commodore A1200 but started 1st job passing a shop they had a cheap Escom made A1200 loved it but software got harder to get. It did have another bug Amiga Format flagged the 3.5 floppy didn't read all Amiga FDD I used external I had from A500. Also a software disk allowed me to play some older games as it did something to make rom look like 1.2 or 1.3 ROM and did something to memory and chipset so older software ran. To those who said Amiga just a Gaming computer I pointed them to Babalon5 which graphics used A2000&3000 with toaster cards. If only Commodore had not been so badly ran the Amiga with upgrades could be a supercomputer today.
I’ve got an NTSC Escom, and an mk3, and I also use the hack fix. Still love it though. This certainly answers a question I’ve had for a while though. Was actually thinking about it tonight, so its a bit ironic to me that you posted this tonight.
Mi amiga 4000 with my MK3 is 100-percent Commodore made and it has the same issue with having to initialize the card . I should check and see if my Alice in my legal 4,000 is a Hewlett-Packard or a Commodore branded one
I love Individual Computer Products, but I learned a very hard lesson with them and that is to read up on all the issues and solutions one might encounter when installing them. Most are plug and play but when I installed my Big RAM board to my 030 board in my A2000 the Big RAM Caused my A2000 to black screen. Yea I cried but the issue was not with the Big RAM board but with a previous owner of the 030 Board increasing the speed of the Coprocessor, so I had to slow it back down and the A2000 came alive with all the RAM. So, after that I started reading more about the product and what issues to look out for and what corrective action might be needed. I have owned my A2000 since the early 1990's, I bought it from a friend, so I am the second owner and it's the one Amiga I have grown attached too although at the time I also had an A500 and A1000 but the A2000 is the one I kept so for me it's my most special Amiga.
Interesting vid Q 👍🏻 So, just to make mention here. Motherboard revisions. The ESCOM boards were rev 1D4 or 2B. But these boards had all the timing fixes done that Commodore didn’t do with their rev 1D4 and 2B. The Commodore board you are using is a 1D1 (my favourite rev, as it didn’t have many issues). If memory serves me right there is a Alice timing fix that sometimes has to be performed for the Indivision. I know this was usually for the mark 1. I’ll have to look this up. But it was something to do with removing a resistor then a solder bridge. Yeah ain’t the Amiga community a a funny thing… Can also be toxic! 😮 Welcome to Amiga ownership. 👍🏻
@@HoldandModifyNo worries Q. You’ve got to start somewhere 👍🏻 I only know a lot of this by owning and researching. Good info found on forums like EAB etc..
I guess Commodore never bothered to make a US/ANSI keyboard for the 1200. I always wondered if the reason was that they never got to sell the 1200 in the US before going bankrupt, but clearly NTSC units exist. (Technically all AGA machines are 50/60hz switchable, unlike earlier machines. Only the RF modulator is different)
If something doesn't work or you find a bug there is absolutely nothing wrong with calling it out,it doesn't mean you are criticizing,its just the truth and you want a solution. That being said it is hard to test hardware perfectly with all the motherboard revisions,rom revisions,chip revisions,OS revisions as well as patches people may run. Some escom and commodore boards had timing issues(fixable) as well as floppy issues.
Yes and folks like me try but don’t have a lot of knowledge. My recent v4 video, The Apollo dev was very helpful and patient. Walked me through full testing to get a happy resolution.
I believe the issue with Indivision exists on both the Commodore and Escom A1200's, it's really down to pot luck and affects *all revisions of motherboards*, yes it can be more prevalent on certain revisions, but in reality it effects all as the factory could implement a various hodgepodge of different variations during the manufacturing process of this machine. I believe this information came from Jens Schoenfeld himself, and I do remember hardware engineer Stephen Leary in one of his life streams commenting that the A1200 is a horribly engineered piece of hardware compared to it's other AGA siblings, the A4000 and CD32. Actually if you look at Indivision on the A4000 and CD32, there is no such thing as graphic glitching or 'overheating' Lisa chips on these systems, even in high resolutions the problem simply doesn't exist.
I have noticed many of the people behind Amiga projects have big heads, and like many people who think very highly of themselves they just cannot take any sort of criticism or challenges to what they say, especially if it involves revenue streams. It is easy to bruise those ego's and burn bridges over what most would consider minor things. Good luck rebuilding those bridges.
Also many of them promise their projects will "eventually" be open source. But they never are. OR they do publish their designs and get angry when someone else makes clones. (To be fair, this is not just an Amiga thing.. its a prevalent psychology in a lot of OS hardware projects).
@@HoldandModify Well, that's baaad. But i'm glad the original seems to work like a charm. "Don't accept imitations" -melon dezign I'm still not over that the illustrius "Q" speaks with us. :D
where can i buy a brand new Amiga 1200 by Escom from? any 1 know? thanks.......i know of the magic pack but other than that though............. thanks............
ok thanks but how do i remap the keys to spacebar and arrow keys emulating the joystick on winuae standard configuration of the Amiga 1200 with hard disc?? thanks.............@@HoldandModify
ALL my SMT motherboard Amigas have problems (A600/1200/4000/CD32) but my Amiga 1000s ALL work just fine. Forget ESCOM, even Commodore made absolutely useless motherboards by the time of the A600 and beyond LOL
Hm, interesting. Perhaps the chemistry (UV protection) still needed to be made? Well, the odds are higher that Commodore saved on that; they were both infamous and renowned for cutting production cost to try and muscle their way into the markets. One could argue that as the A1200 was their home micro swan song, the few pennies saved probably just postponed their demise by a week or two.
can someone (a programmer) type in a donkey kong game with a green background like the one on the Dragon 32 by Tom Mix Microdeal Software 1982 1983 for the Atari st ?? or the Amiga too ? thanks.........
hello - i have a question for u - on rpcemu if u try to run pc emulator and then format a disc image on it to Dragondos format it wont work but vcopy works though but why cant dskinit.exe work? thanks........ also any luck with grand prix ? on the dragon 32 ? thanks......................@@HoldandModify
Haven’t been able to figure out proper scaling with 4:3 monitors. The Amiga modes I can get to map 1:1 within the 16:9 screen. Not saying a 4:3 can’t and I did have 4:3 monitors on all of them before, but couldn’t get the scaling right.
@@HoldandModify Ive seen Various Amiga users using Real Amigas and stuf like the Indivision Flicker fixers and their screens are 4:3 on a 16:9 screen. Maybe they are using Dbl-NTSC or Dbl-PAL modes which I think make the pixels square AKA VGA resolution.
![[UNCUT] The Loyal Pin ปิ่นภักดิ์ EP.4 (2/4)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MN-p1DHjPtI/mqdefault.jpg)
@Hold and Modify - Big fan of your videos, they are always genuinely useful. However, there's a flaw with this video - BOTH of those motherboards are Commodore era boards. The one you stated was a Commodore board was a 1D1 revision board (generally considered the best of the bunch). The so-called ESCOM board is a 1D4 board - which is not an ESCOM board at all, it's another Commodore era board, and the one most commonly in need of timing fixes (after which it's usually fine). the ESCOM era boards are the Rev 2B boards (which are very problematic). Some ESCOM-era A1200s shipped with 1D4 boards because there were a load of pre-assembled boards that they inherited from Commodore's assets, so they got used before production of the 2B ramped up.
Thank you for this clarity! PINNED!
@@HoldandModify Happy to help. Also, FYI - I've got an Indivision AGA Mk3 as well which I use on my 1D1-based 1200 (so, the same board you moved yours onto) and it has always worked great, without any of the issues you had on the other board. So with a bit of luck your one should now perform as it's supposed to.
@@chrisgreenisc2I think you’ll find that ESCOM fixed the timing issues on their produced 1D4 and 2B boards. If you look there are no E123C, E123R, E125C and E125R on the board whatsoever. I remember at the time why my ACA accelerators worked on my newly bought ESCOM 1200, whilst owners on Commodore 1D4 and 2B boards were getting black screens.
I have a PAL Commodore-branded A1200 with a 1.D.4 board. However, there are no HP chips on there, only Commodore, Motorola, VLSI and a few others. Q could be on to something there.
@@cullmaster7361 Yes, you are right about ESCOM fixing the timing issues on most (not all, as it was a retrofix, some got missed) of the 1D4 boards they used. The 2B boards usually don't need timing fixes as HP never populated the offending points on the board. Alas, 2B boards seem to have a whole heap of other issues all of their own thanks to being designed for corrected chips that never happened.
I'm one of the ones who commented on your original video, and had similar findings with my board. Same thing - HP Chipset. But when I put it on another A1200, non HP chip, it works. I've just also chalked it up to some timing issue on the other board. I was worried initially my other board had a problem, because at the time it was the only A1200 I had. Of course, now I have... let's just say more than one (I don't have a problem... you have a problem!) and I haven't tested The MK3 in every board, but it works in other machines fine. Something weird with this short board version and the MK3 - they just don't work well together.
Thank you for confirming. Glad we both have solutions. ;)
My 1st Computer Commodore 16 kept breaking so got C64 solid computer then A500 got me through college as Wordsworth helpled me do work on time with my Dyslexia, I couldn't afford a Commodore A1200 but started 1st job passing a shop they had a cheap Escom made A1200 loved it but software got harder to get. It did have another bug Amiga Format flagged the 3.5 floppy didn't read all Amiga FDD I used external I had from A500. Also a software disk allowed me to play some older games as it did something to make rom look like 1.2 or 1.3 ROM and did something to memory and chipset so older software ran. To those who said Amiga just a Gaming computer I pointed them to Babalon5 which graphics used A2000&3000 with toaster cards. If only Commodore had not been so badly ran the Amiga with upgrades could be a supercomputer today.
Thank you for sharing your story! Always love hearing them. Yes so sad about how Commodore ended up.
I’ve got an NTSC Escom, and an mk3, and I also use the hack fix. Still love it though. This certainly answers a question I’ve had for a while though. Was actually thinking about it tonight, so its a bit ironic to me that you posted this tonight.
Yup, it’s a great addon !
Great video! Looks like you are gradually homing in on the root cause (HP Alice?). You have *my* gratitude at least.
Seems so. Thank you!
Mi amiga 4000 with my MK3 is 100-percent Commodore made and it has the same issue with having to initialize the card . I should check and see if my Alice in my legal 4,000 is a Hewlett-Packard or a Commodore branded one
Hmm yes do that. If it’s HP…we may have an answer. Uh oh.
many A4000's had hp alice. That being the case more testing of the mKIII on this alice possibly should of been done.
I love Individual Computer Products, but I learned a very hard lesson with them and that is to read up on all the issues and solutions one might encounter when installing them. Most are plug and play but when I installed my Big RAM board to my 030 board in my A2000 the Big RAM Caused my A2000 to black screen. Yea I cried but the issue was not with the Big RAM board but with a previous owner of the 030 Board increasing the speed of the Coprocessor, so I had to slow it back down and the A2000 came alive with all the RAM. So, after that I started reading more about the product and what issues to look out for and what corrective action might be needed. I have owned my A2000 since the early 1990's, I bought it from a friend, so I am the second owner and it's the one Amiga I have grown attached too although at the time I also had an A500 and A1000 but the A2000 is the one I kept so for me it's my most special Amiga.
Yeah the products are cool but fussy. Glad you resolved it.
Interesting vid Q 👍🏻 So, just to make mention here. Motherboard revisions. The ESCOM boards were rev 1D4 or 2B. But these boards had all the timing fixes done that Commodore didn’t do with their rev 1D4 and 2B. The Commodore board you are using is a 1D1 (my favourite rev, as it didn’t have many issues). If memory serves me right there is a Alice timing fix that sometimes has to be performed for the Indivision. I know this was usually for the mark 1. I’ll have to look this up. But it was something to do with removing a resistor then a solder bridge. Yeah ain’t the Amiga community a a funny thing… Can also be toxic! 😮 Welcome to Amiga ownership. 👍🏻
I pinned another comment from earlier that explains the board versions. I had no clue! Thanks for more info!
@@HoldandModifyNo worries Q. You’ve got to start somewhere 👍🏻 I only know a lot of this by owning and researching. Good info found on forums like EAB etc..
There was no commodore 2b board as far as I know, only Escom
@@plechaim Yes Commodore did make a 2B revision board. The ESCOM I owned was a 1D4 revision without the Commodore Branding.
Interesting I guess these must be the very last ones from 1994 @@cullmaster7361
I guess Commodore never bothered to make a US/ANSI keyboard for the 1200. I always wondered if the reason was that they never got to sell the 1200 in the US before going bankrupt, but clearly NTSC units exist.
(Technically all AGA machines are 50/60hz switchable, unlike earlier machines. Only the RF modulator is different)
Funny how Commodore Amiga went from US centric to Eurocentric in the 8 years between A500 and A1200
CD32! 😊 the best 1200 if you ask me.
If something doesn't work or you find a bug there is absolutely nothing wrong with calling it out,it doesn't mean you are criticizing,its just the truth and you want a solution. That being said it is hard to test hardware perfectly with all the motherboard revisions,rom revisions,chip revisions,OS revisions as well as patches people may run. Some escom and commodore boards had timing issues(fixable) as well as floppy issues.
Yes and folks like me try but don’t have a lot of knowledge. My recent v4 video, The Apollo dev was very helpful and patient. Walked me through full testing to get a happy resolution.
I absolutely love the video and hate you equally for rubbing it in, all the Amiga bling.
Haha sorry. I started a couple years ago with one Amiga. Amazing to think about that. Never would’ve thought it would go this far.
I believe the issue with Indivision exists on both the Commodore and Escom A1200's, it's really down to pot luck and affects *all revisions of motherboards*, yes it can be more prevalent on certain revisions, but in reality it effects all as the factory could implement a various hodgepodge of different variations during the manufacturing process of this machine. I believe this information came from Jens Schoenfeld himself, and I do remember hardware engineer Stephen Leary in one of his life streams commenting that the A1200 is a horribly engineered piece of hardware compared to it's other AGA siblings, the A4000 and CD32. Actually if you look at Indivision on the A4000 and CD32, there is no such thing as graphic glitching or 'overheating' Lisa chips on these systems, even in high resolutions the problem simply doesn't exist.
That’s interesting. Did not know that. Thank you!
I have noticed many of the people behind Amiga projects have big heads, and like many people who think very highly of themselves they just cannot take any sort of criticism or challenges to what they say, especially if it involves revenue streams. It is easy to bruise those ego's and burn bridges over what most would consider minor things. Good luck rebuilding those bridges.
Yeah I’m learning this ….
Also many of them promise their projects will "eventually" be open source. But they never are. OR they do publish their designs and get angry when someone else makes clones. (To be fair, this is not just an Amiga thing.. its a prevalent psychology in a lot of OS hardware projects).
Nice! What are the morherboard revisions?
I pinned a comment at the top from a user who figured it out and clearly detailed the issue for me. :)
Thanks, I'll comment below that one :-)
ok but why does the Escom Amiga 1200 take 39 seconds to boot from floppy? is this the hard disc delay timer? or something ? thanks.................
It’s shorter with the newer 3.2+
roms.
GmbH (Gee em bee haw) stands for "Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung", literally "Company with limited Liability", or as you call it, Ltd.
Thank you for the correction. I should Google next time, but then that would be better produced content. Heh.
on the Escom Amiga 1200 (magic pack) theres a 39 second boot delay without a hard disc installed!!
True! However if you install newer 3.2 roms and the updates, this changes (now)
Well was it then? Someone tldr; it for me please
Bad timing 1200 boards. I pinned a comment at the top from a user who explained better then me.
Hey Q, did you need to run that software thing e-ve-ry-time you boot that Escom Amiga?
Yes
@@HoldandModify Well, that's baaad. But i'm glad the original seems to work like a charm.
"Don't accept imitations" -melon dezign
I'm still not over that the illustrius "Q" speaks with us. :D
where can i buy a brand new Amiga 1200 by Escom from? any 1 know? thanks.......i know of the magic pack but other than that though............. thanks............
You’re about 35 years too late. Sorry, hehe.
ok thanks but how do i remap the keys to spacebar and arrow keys emulating the joystick on winuae standard configuration of the Amiga 1200 with hard disc?? thanks.............@@HoldandModify
ALL my SMT motherboard Amigas have problems (A600/1200/4000/CD32) but my Amiga 1000s ALL work just fine. Forget ESCOM, even Commodore made absolutely useless motherboards by the time of the A600 and beyond LOL
Dang. Be rolling.
Looks like escom used better plastics on their cases that are immune to yellowing.
That was something I was curious about.
Hm, interesting. Perhaps the chemistry (UV protection) still needed to be made? Well, the odds are higher that Commodore saved on that; they were both infamous and renowned for cutting production cost to try and muscle their way into the markets. One could argue that as the A1200 was their home micro swan song, the few pennies saved probably just postponed their demise by a week or two.
I have one right here that is as yellow as orange juice.
can someone (a programmer) type in a donkey kong game with a green background like the one on the Dragon 32 by Tom Mix Microdeal Software 1982 1983 for the Atari st ?? or the Amiga too ? thanks.........
Haha. This is a good idea!
hello - i have a question for u - on rpcemu if u try to run pc emulator and then format a disc image on it to Dragondos format it wont work but vcopy works though but why cant dskinit.exe work? thanks........ also any luck with grand prix ? on the dragon 32 ? thanks......................@@HoldandModify
Why do you use a 16:9 Monitor and not a 4:3 Flatscreen LCD? All Amiga stuff is in 4:3. I cant stand those empty black borders.
Haven’t been able to figure out proper scaling with 4:3 monitors. The Amiga modes I can get to map 1:1 within the 16:9 screen. Not saying a 4:3 can’t and I did have 4:3 monitors on all of them before, but couldn’t get the scaling right.
@@HoldandModify How is that possible since Amiga output is literally always 4:3 (720x480 or 640 x 400)
@@eijentwun5509 ntsc and pal pixels are not square. (Slightly wide) VGA is square. You’re giving me an idea for anew video. :)
@@HoldandModify Ive seen Various Amiga users using Real Amigas and stuf like the Indivision Flicker fixers and their screens are 4:3 on a 16:9 screen. Maybe they are using Dbl-NTSC or Dbl-PAL modes which I think make the pixels square AKA VGA resolution.