Which Affordable Dovetail Saw is Best? Lie-Nielsen vs. Veritas
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- Joshua Farnsworth helps you understand back saws, and which back saws are best for your money. Links to both dovetail saws here:
* Lie-Nielsen Dovetail Saw: bit.ly/2AJSfXI
* Veritas Dovetail Saw: bit.ly/2CdDEo9
✪ See the article & photos here: woodandshop.com/which-afforda...
✪ Subscribe to my TH-cam channel: th-cam.com/users/WoodAndS...
✪ Subscribe to get my Videos & Articles in your email inbox: woodandshop.com/subscribe/
✪ Visit my Hand Tool Buyer's Guide: woodandshop.com/which-hand-to...
✪ Visit my Power Tool Buyer's Guide: woodandshop.com/woodworking-p...
✪ Watch our Amazing Woodworking Workshop Tours: woodandshop.com/traditional-w...
✪ Join our free Woodworking Forum: woodandshop.com/forum/
✪ Shop at our Traditional Woodworker's Store: store.woodandshop.com/
✪ See our Traditional Woodworking School: woodandshop.com/school
✪ 10 Steps to Getting Started in Traditional Woodworking with Hand Tools: woodandshop.com/learn-traditi...
Affiliate disclaimer: When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
I Saw 'lee-Nielsen, veritas and affordable' in one sentence.. so I came checking if everyone is alright, cuz I got worry'd
I know right? It was very discombobulating.
HAHAHAHA!! Top comment right here!
My verity’s was only $100
Blue spruce is like $350 for a dovetail saw, there’s some one off’s too that are $500+
My Lie Nielsen tools were very affordable...very, very affordable...sooo freaking affordable...they hardly cost anything at all...we're going to be ok. We don't watch all of those TV channels and we can leave the heat on 60 and eat peanut butter sandwiches.
Nice, wish you'd mentioned that factory performance is thrown out the window after the first sharpening. After that it all comes down to the skill of the sharpener and comfort of the handle.
Absolutely, I was going to mention that. I bought a second hand Lie Nielsen dovetail saw that cut absolutely horribly compared to my vintage Jackson and Son saw. The previous owner had done quite a mess of the LN...
Nicholas Brown
You should make a video documenting your process. I would be interested to see this in action. I would assume you’re not talking about the Gyokucho saws that are electrically hardened (unless that’s why you use a diamond feather file.) Interesting.
wortheffort
It would be good if folks would explain the necessity of buying cheap saws to practice on first so they don’t ruin a good saw.
Who else clicked on this just to read the comments?
Thanks for the great info and quality review!
I have been looking at dovetail saws and think you have helped me decide. Thanks
While I LOVE my LN Mortise saw, I recently bought Rob Cosman's dovetail saw and use both to great success. What's unique about RC's DT saw is that the first 2" at the tip of the blade are 22 tpi, whereas the rest of the blade is 15 tpi. This gives you a great start every time, leading to improved accuracy, less chiseling up to the line, and tighter joinery.
Thanks a looot.. definitely i,ll go for antique vintage one & brass backed and will sharp it my self.
Many of these old back-saws have the plate pushed deeper into the spine. This is because many workers habitually used the end of the plate to complete the 'blind cut', when making half-blind, (lap) dovetails. They would put the end of the blade in the cut and tap down with a hammer. This worked, but was hardly the way to treat a saw blade! Better idea is to use an old scraper, which does this trick nicely.
Joshua, I'm glad I found your channel, and I'm enjoying the learning experience. Having looked at the various classes you teach, I'm interested in the Introduction to Hand Tool Woodworking class, but for spring of 2021. I don't know when you begin to advertise for future classes, but I'll keep watch. I'm new to woodworking generally, so I'm assuming that's the logical first course to take.
Great video, thanks for the informative session on what makes a quality dovetail saw!
You'r'e most welcome!
LOVE my Rob Cosman DT saw. An absolute game changer!
Great video. I have been looking at Lie Nielsen and am now going to get it. Thank you.
Thank you Josh.
I would love to come take any class some day!! Thanks for sharing!!💜
Helpful video cheers
Nice video! Nice tools!
I have a Disston carcase saw that I bought Oct. 1, 2016 in Mountain View, Ar. for $35 plus tax. When I researched it I found it was made around 1850. It has a tapered plate and closed tote. It is still in very nice shape. I have used it a little but not much.
this was a real help
Thanks for the video. I keep trying to convince myself that I need the Rob Cosman. But that is expensive. I like the idea of taking a class to learn how to make my own saw. That is intriguing to me
I wish I could afford the high end saws but I have to do the El cheapos. I need the money for the videos. I have beed making my own handles for used blades I found locally and on the net. Thanks for the video. sharpening is something that you have to do for all the saws eventually so I went the cheap rout. I own some really nice diston and other blades and it has been fun to learn how to make them hum again. Thanks for the information.
My favourite is a Wenzloff dovetail saw. Made to my 'not too exotic', specifications, and not much dearer than LN. I don't know if they are still marketing. I added a Japanese saw after a while, as I like the narrow kerf they give. I now have all I need in that department!
Thanks for the heads up. I'll take your word for it, and go with the Lie-Neilson (I'm a sucker for brass aesthetics anyway).
It's spendy, but I've found that good tools (like good furniture) are worth the extra money. 👍
I agree with the difficulty in starting a cut with the Veritas saw. I heard Shannon Rodgers, of Renaissance Worker, say something similar.
This comment makes no sense at all! The LN has zero degree rake. That is a saw that will cut aggressively and require a touch to start. Some like this (I do), but it is a saw for the more expert (I am). By contrast, the Veritas has 14 degrees rake, which is shallow (the average is about 5-9 degrees). This makes the saw much less aggressive. It will start gently and saw more slowly. Perfect for a beginner (but also good for someone more careful). I have both saws. My go to is the LN, but the Veritas is a fine saw as well. The comments about it, from this video, are just inaccurate.
@@derekcohen1000 It's possible that I misunderstood/misheard Shannon when he spoke about Veritas saws. He may have been talking about the hang angle instead, or perhaps a combination of rake and hang.
Be that as it may, I have more difficulty starting a cut with my Veritas saws, than I do with vintage saws
Nice job wish u would give ideal on with antiques saw are the better working tool 👍🙏
Affordable.
$125 saw.
Pick one.
Btw, the Lie Nielsen is $150+ here..
HAHAHA that cracked me up
Yes it is
If it comes to buying a tool, I have learned 2 things:
1. You get what You pay for.
2. Good work begins with good tools.
Buy an average prize level tool and You'll have an average quality tool. Usable, but that's it.
Spare a little more to buy a higher quality tool (it don't have to be the most expensive hand engraved and mirror polished piece of Artwork!) and You'll get a tool You'll love to use. Those kind of tools You will handle with care and use them with a smile on Your face. They'll stay in perfect condition, as long as You'll use them.
That makes Your tool live longer, that makes you working safer, that makes Your work better (You'll be more content, promised!) , that makes Your life easier.
If it's a question of a few bucks, it's not really worth to save them.
Life is too precious to mess around with bad tools!
Thanks for your comment! Yes, a better tool does help. However, there is a level of diminishing returns where a $250 dovetail saw isn't necessarily going to give you better results than a $100 dovetail saw. And visiting so many other woodworkers, I've been amazed what beautiful furniture they've built with basic hand tools, rather than whole sets of Lie-Nielsen tools.
Wood and Shop Indeed. If a level of quality is behind and You're somewhere by 80-90 percent perfection (which often is enough) , You can easily pay twice the prize for a few percent more quality (or just a better look or brand name) and You'll have to doubt if this is really necessary. That's what I meant as I wrote "it don't have to be the most expensive hand engraved and mirror polished piece of Artwork". But sometimes the border between a real good tool and a piece of Artwork is not clearly defined... ;)
And of course even the best tool can be used the wrong way or just badly - so it will produce bad work or gets worn out/dull very fast. If the user is an idiot, Quality of tools will not help...
But - even if the same quality of work could also be done with cheap tools - it's easier and safer and more satisfying to produce good work with good tools.
Buy the lie Nielsen it’s a great saw easy to use and I’m not a pro.. love you r videos Joshua.. I live in Stafford va , want to take a class one day👍😊
Hope to see you here!
You should do a comparison with a Cosman saw.
The Veritas dovetail saws go on sale, even at Woodcraft. I have sharpened mine a few times, so I can’t comment on out of the box (I know I’ve decreased the set, i.e. have not put ANY set, just sharpened flat without fleam). I also start on a push cut, not pull. The back isn’t plastic, it’s a metal/resin mix (that feels metallic on the hand). I have made saws and re-handed saws, I would stay in the (on-sale) Veritas side of things. I don’t like the “hand-feel” of the gent saws, if I was forced to I suppose I could figure it out, but I wouldn’t want to be doing important/visible work for quite a while.
Thanks for the pretty good review! Unlike many tools, Zona Razor Saws are made in the US. They have teeth from 52 TPI to 14 TPI and in various shapes and sizes. Most are pull saws and a few of them cut on the push stroke. Hobbyists, woodworkers, luthiers and makers of all sorts love them. People who use them feel that they are pretty great and that you get MORE that what you pay for.
Alternative for me is to drive down to Lacrosse Minnesota and buy a Bad Axe saw. Expensive but they're beautiful.
Disclaimer I live in Minnesota: "Lacrosse" or La Crosse is not a town/city in Minnesota so good luck with that. La Crosse, where Bad Axe Toolworks produces Bad Axe Saws, is located in Wisconsin on Green Bay St.
Another new maker that is right around that price point is florip toolworks out of Michigan. His dovetail saws start around 85+s&h
Hey, thanks for the head's up!
yes I have all three now LN Vet and Florip and they all do compare quite well. LN and Florip are very nice saws. Florip is also very reasonably priced. I have purchase two if his saw now..
WOW
what a collection I like that saw
Joshua the very one you made
with the brass back it would be so COOL TAKE A LOOK AT ME NOW I'M NOT CUTTING
SCHOOL .
Shop looks great. Will you be doing an updated shop tour now that all the workbenches are done?
Thanks Christopher! Yes, I plan on doing a video on that soon. Classes have just got me really busy.
Wood and Shop great- looking forward to it!
I didnt think to see if Lie Nielson made a dovetail saw. I ended up buying that Japanese pull saw. Not received it yet. Its the one katz mosis sells on his woodworking website.
I probably would have bought lie nielson just because it would be worth near retail if I died and my family had to sell my tools.
$ 125 for a hand saw and it won't even fit my hand. I think I'll pass. My neighbor's walnut three came down in a storm six years ago. He gave it to me for free. Now I can make handles for the next 300 years. BTW, I add checkering to the handles, like on a gun stock, which I never see on commercial tools.
Another high end saw is Rob Cosman’s, also Canadian. Great videos too.
Love my Cosman saw.
for the price of cosman saw id rather buy a bad axe
For the folks in the USA the advantage of purchasing a Canadian made saw is the fact that the Canadian dollar is worth less than the American dollar. We Canadians can and do make good products compared to China. I have nothing against the Chinese people,only that some of their products are not up to the same standard of quality as the North American products.
Comparing Veritas to Lie-Nielsen is rather ridiculous. The latter is a beautiful traditional saw and those from Canada are ugly and cumbersome.
I dont have anything against chinese people themselves either, just prefer to support my own country and people as much as I possibly can. Even if it means spending 5x as much. You usually get a better tool or part, as well as a good warranty most of the time.
What is the cloud couch?
This can be where we come to complain! I have the Veritas dovetail saw. I admit it could be partly my low skill level but I can't cut straight with it. I'd like to know what the weight difference is between these two saws. I find the Veritas to be too light. I'm old a little shaky as it is. I need a bit of weight to help with stability.
I have both, but I dream of have a Skeleton Dovetail Saw
Carlos J. González Moreno Skelton
Watch 4 different Veritas vs Lie Nielsen comparisons and you'll get 2 for one, 2 for the other. It comes down to, do you want traditional only better or do you want a possibly better mousetrap?
Can you tell me if it makes a difference between the LN tapered vs. straight dovetail saw? Which was your comparison using?
Plate tapering or just a taper from heel to toe?
the tapered saw allows for easier cutting to your base line. its designed so that you do not accidentally blow past in the back while cutting. I have the tapered and no regret.
Good info! Most of my saws are antiques that I bought cheaply on ebay or at flea markets and restored. The one exception is my dovetail saw which is the Veritas. I like it it works great. I have the fine cut version which is about 20 tpi and is of course a bit slower though it results in a cleaner cut. The standard version is 14tpi and cuts a bit faster. Do you know which one you were using there? I'm guessing it's the fine cut version but I'd be curious to know which and how the other compares to the Lie Nielsen
I was using the 14 tpi version. Thanks for the comment!
i have both and must agree. the lie nielson performs much better. it comes far sharper, the geometry allows quick and easy start, its a bit heavier which helps as you dont have to bear down as the veritas kind of encourages you to do. the veritas is a good saw, but for a little more, you get a far superior tool in the lie nielson
Lie Neilsen has went up to $175 now, Veritas is still around $90.
I was in need of a dovetail saw and my wife wanted to get me one for a gift. I gave her three options and only the Veritas was available, so that was my gift. I've been using it for over a year and a half and it cuts great, but I have never liked the feel in my hand. I also keep meaning to take some of the set out of it. It just seems to come with too much for a rip. I also don't like that plasticky back. I like the weight of brass. It cuts aggressively enough for the weight. I think the weight is the difference between the Lie-Nielsen and the Veritas. The other option I gave her was the Florip. I'll have to check if this channel has a review of that tool, but I heard so many great things about it, I wanted to get that as my first choice.
Does Tom Calisto have a website where you can buy supplies / kits from him? If so, could you post a link?
Thanks Josh!
Yup, here's Tom's website: windwardwoodworks.com/
Looks like he doesn't sell kits anymore.
Have you had a chance to sharpen and set the Veritas to see if that helped fixed some of the observations and initial impressions?
No, I didn't have time to sharpen brand new saws...just sent them back. A new saw over $20 should cut perfectly out of the box. The saw plate was also too thick.
Wood and Shop good point. Thanks for the update.
keep in mind that the set is almost non existent on the veritas tenon saw as well, and made mine impossible to use. I put in more set, and now it doesnt bind up, but im still not happy. sadly, lie nielson no longer produces there tenon saw....
@3:22 Tom, the man the myth the legend
What about Japanese back saws?
Hey Joe, I see the resounding lack of response from the site owner. I really hate site owners that say to leave a comment and the ignore them. My gut suspicion is that you are speaking anathemas. It is rare for old time woodies to acknowledge that pushing a saw is really..hmmm how can I phrase this...TOTALLY STUPID. Now, as far as "affordable" hahahahaha I am on SocSec 90 bucks is not affordable.
Where it's earliesville va located? Because I would love to learn a couple things because I'm getting in to carving. So how far is it from saltville
Google map is your best resource!
It's called the flea market special!
Lie Nielsen or Florip?
Honestly, at least at the time of this writing, I feel like my Veritas saw cut the best amongst other brands such as Vintage Disston. With time spent on restoration, the Veritas is easily the cheapest (unless I work for 5 bucks/hr) by quite a margin. But of course this is a subjective assessment as I have smaller stubby hands. They (the major brands new or old) all seem to work great, but I think sharpening and comfort really determines preference.
Dozuki, $30.
There's no doubt Google will hold a wealth of information, but I'm curious about sharpening. How hard it is to become proficient? I looked at some videos (maybe even on of yours!) and I was intimidated. I have the LN dovetail and carcass saw, and they are in need of sharpening. I don't want to screw it up!
Rip saws are pretty easy to sharpen. It does take a little muscle memory to hold the angles consistently. I first practiced sharpening on a $1 back saw from a secondhand store (and I still use that saw now).
Your LN saws likely just need a tune up. Go to youtube and find the tutorials by Thomas Lie-Nielsen on resharpening his rip and crosscut saws. It does take some practice, but I've found the Veritas saw filing guide is really helpful in getting consistent angles.
Where can we get a kit online?
Do you have a tungsten wedding-ring?
Yes! And silicone rings too.
If these are the affordable saws I'm curious about the expensive ones.
Double the price.
talking 350-400
Manda uns 2 serrote pra mim kkk aqui no Brasil tem nada disso é quando tem são muito caro
Где были эти пилы 50 лет назад Мы все делали вручную Имею ввиду ножовки Брали ножовку с шагом 5 мм срезали или стаскивали половину высоты зуба Потом каждый зуб делили на два и получался шаг 2,5 мм
That’s a crazy low bench. Or is Joshua a real life giant?
Nope, perfectly sized bench for planing.
Doesn't look like your class offerings are up to date. Is that something that you don't offer anymore?
The new class schedule is up now Todd.
Another route if you are just getting into hand tools would be to buy the Veritas, and then get the Lie Nielsen later, once you’ve destroyed the Veritas with poor technique or faulty work holding.
Perhaps, but it's always better to start off knowing what a well-tuned saw feels like.
Very true. I guess you really can’t beat the old-fashioned way of learning to do it under the watchful eye of an experienced sawyer, who keeps you from buggering up his/her well-tuned saw. Props for making your own saws btw, that is pretty cool!
Lie Nielsen
I bought a 7 euro saw. Long teeth, thick blade. Cuts horribly.... You mentioned the sharpness of the teeth, I looked at the blade and the teeth where as thick as the blade. No sharpening at all! So I took a file and worked on all the teeth and it does cut allot better now. Now I just need a saw with shorter teeth.... those long teeth are a @%^$@ for fine detail work and short cuts.
I don’t think veritas or lie- Nielsen would fall into the affordable category
as an owner of the veritas dovetail saw, I can simply say its a dud. I have other products from lee valley and the veritas lineup and they are descent to excellent in form and function. unfortunately the dovetail saw is not good. at all. cut with lie nielson or a rob cosman saw and youll wish you never wasted the money on the veritas.
Affordable is subjective, isn’t it?
Great saws but "affordable" & Lie-Nielsen / Veritas is the definition of oxymoron - at least in Oz
Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw affordable? This is an April Fool video, isn't it?
Compared with other saws like this, yes: robcosman.com/products/rob-cosman-professional-dovetail-saw
@@str8chevys913 I agree
I suppose the other alternative is pax saws, I went for the Lie Nielsen but its hard to say.....
@@philippboetcher9959 the price of premium hand saws is just off the wall to me. I can get a brand new Makita circular saw for cheaper. That fact does not sit well with me either.
@@1pcfred Yes it is well expensive....on the other hand, second hand standey planes are very cheap and still fantastic, same with Marples chisels. Just the saws are clearly over the top....
neither are affordable to the hobbyist check out paul sellers video on spear & jackson saws
It's foolish to think that a saw you buy will be perfectly sharpened so that you don't have to sharpen it. The best saws out there should assume that the user will sharpen correctly and often.
These are the two most expensive/overpriced brands I've ever seen... where's the stanley and harbor freight models?
Sales gimmick, go to to flea markets and antique stores and you can find one better than any saw these people have ever dreamed off for 5 to 10 dollars. All you're buying is the name with these over priced saws.
LOL. Obviously you haven't been out shopping at flea markets and antique stores for back saws. (A) You won't find backsaws, as all those sellers put them on ebay, because they are uncommon. If you do find one, it'll be in very poor condition, because those people know they can't sell it on Ebay...and they'll price them for way more than they're worth. Way more than $5-$10! (B) Yes, the antique backsaws are typically great quality, but no, the antique saws are not much better than these. And the Florip dovetail saw (that I just made a video on) is superior to most of my antique backsaws (I have about 40 backsaws).
Off course yours are better and youd say dont go to antique stores because your trying to sell your product, but I'm saying your product is overpriced and can get just as good and better saws for much cheaper and you dont like that because it's TRUE that's the only reason you replied.
You "woodshop" guys are all the same trying to talk up your "affordable" saws, but hey if you go to our school which is overpriced, you can buy one of our "affordable" do it yourself kits for 50 bucks lmao.
The affordable approach is what I aforementioned. Not a sales gimmick like you have.
@@muddinmann This isn't my product dude. If you watched the video you would have known that. I'm highlighting an awesome tool maker who is giving great value to woodworkers. I bought 4 saws from Florip at full price. I always go to antique stores, and am always on the look out for antique saws. I have a lot of them. But I never find them at antique stores or flea markets. I've found panel saws at those places, but never back saws. I have, however found a bunch at tool swaps.
I have several flea-market saws. They have problems like kinks, rust, broken handles, and damaged teeth. If you have the time, tools, and inclination to address these issues, you can find a saw for a decent price there.
Lie-Nielsen do not sell tools anymore. Everything on their website is out of stock. I ended up getting some IBC chisels and I don't regret it. For dovetail saws I am going with Cosman, which is a far better product than Lie-Nielsen.
Lie-Nielsen is not out of stock. Sometimes there's a run on a particular saw because some youtuber posts a video of "the one saw/plane/chisel you MUST have." Whatever bug you have up your ass about LN, they are still very much in business.