What I find most interesting about the current times is that the people who protest don't create their own things as an alternative. They just want to tear down what already exists. Thank you for the video.
Yes, both because creating is beyond their capacities and has nothing to do with their objectives, which is literally to destroy whatever other people love. They attack old women's knitting communities, for God's sake! The activists also don't buy anything. We've seen this over and over in comics, video games, movies, TV...
You have to understand where it all comes from. These subversives were trained to hate anything that doesn't appeal to their specific tastes. As one feminist famously said, ''everything is racist, everything is sexist, everything is homophobic, and you have to point it all out.'' Even though such a statement is an exaggeration of the truth to the point where it's ridiculous, no sensible person would accept it. But that is the viewpoint where they're all coming from. It came from people in propaganda spaces filled with people who are miffed at the fact that others are having fun without them; they're angry that other people aren't angry at what they perceive to be societal injustices, and so they want to drag everyone down and make everyone miserable.
The real wargaming said they were going to donate money to ukraine but reality their supporting russia and fascist republicans as they hide in their states from paying out that money o right nice letting war gaming drag your name down with them
I remember going on a Capital Radio (London in the eighties) game show, I listed one of my hobbies as Wargaming, the host a Canadian I think took exception to the term, and asked me on air, don't people die in War. I said yes but they don't die playing Wargames. I was asked to in the quiz to spell annunciation, I spelled it correctly but the host called it as wrong, there were complaints from listeners, so they asked me to go back on air, the DJ was a jerk so I declined, as he was ignorant on two count's. Wargamers are not violent people, the last place they would actually want to be is in a real war, they have a respect for history and the people who were caught up in these events.
The real wargaming said they were going to donate money to ukraine but reality their supporting russia and fascist republicans as they hide in their states from paying out that money o right nice letting war gaming drag your name down with them
I myseld am a black man in my twenties. I was mocked for several years by people who all now consume and cause the shitty state of anime, tabletop games, etc. While the people who they say ruin the hobby (the older white men) had never been anything but acxepting to me because we share rhe same common love for pushing little men on tables.
@greenbluewalkthrough As we've come to expect from your ilk, you are a liar and you have nothing interesting to say on the subject. You talk in cliches. We've heard them all before and we are not fooled. We know what you're up to.
The real wargaming said they were going to donate money to ukraine but reality their supporting russia and fascist republicans as they hide in their states from paying out that money o right nice letting war gaming drag your name down with them
The real wargaming said they were going to donate money to ukraine but reality their supporting russia and fascist republicans as they hide in their states from paying out that money o right nice letting war gaming drag your name down with them
My 10 years old daughter is a wargamer. She plays with me and different adults as also two boys different wargames, because she likes playing and good stories to be told.
The devil can pervert anything, but he can't pervert love, so he has to throw counterfeits. Hate is one, like crazy teeth bearing hate for one kind of person is actually love for that person's opposition. Lust. Indulgence. Never love.
Spot on, the hobby is for unique individuals who like interesting things, this does not include everyone. Not everyone likes; gambling, sports, cricket or playing ping pong that's how things should be, we are all different, especially Wargaming!
Just look at all the things Hasbro has done to make 5e "better"! And by that, I mean... >Removing things from the game to make it easier for people >Rewriting stuff from previous editions, but making it worse >Adding unusuable, broken content via Unearthed Arcana >Corginians (I hope whoever did this gets leukemia) >Strixhaven (I hope whoever did this gets leukemia and leprosy)
@@elijahherstal776 Part of the reason for this is short term profits. Many companies are perfectly happy to alienate their existing fan base if they can appeal to a different group because "new" customers usually spend more money in the short term than existing customers. It's a poor LONG term approach but can boost short term profits. Once the Critical Role "RPG's are cool" fad passes (which is probably already happening) WOTC is going to find that they no longer have ANY customers since they alienated all their core fans over the last several years.
The hobby is for anyone but not for everyone. But that doesn't mean we can't try to make it for as many people as possible. But Gatekeeping is THE most important thing.
Honestly this is something that needs to be said about all genres and niches. Remember a few years ago that every horror game had to become more and more action. Not "action horror" exactly but instead become simple action games. Sure Dead Space 3 had monsters but it had dropped nearly all of it's identity. No longer was blasting off limbs the way to win. No instead it gave way to just using full auto and hitting center mass. Something that in the prior 2 games and extended lore landed anyone in a heap of necromorph trouble. Gaming use to have attitude back in the 2000's. peaked around MW2, Halo 3, and the like. Ever since it has become more and more watered down and made for general audiences. Now trash talking is discouraged, female sexiness is frowned upon to the point of being blocked from tournaments (DOA) and the whole AAA sphere has become sterile with microtransactions. All I got to say is Hail the Iron Age because what's at the top simply is too corrupted.
@@Gortboy2k11 well in this hypothetical I'd be CEO of EA and not destroy my horror properties. Read. I put the solution in there. or look at Metal Gear Survive Lost Planet 3 or Dead Rising 4.
@@Gortboy2k11 Bully harder. That's what I'd do. Hey, that game of the year you're showing in your channel? Elden Ring? It didn't bend the knee to cretins, and look how successful it was. Everything else that went the route of 'appeasing the masses for a buck' turned into a stinking, worthless heap of trash- very much like your own mother.
@@Gortboy2k11 company? No, I'm talking about people like you. Unrelenting verbal, and possibly physical abuse. And were I to go back in time? I'd show a few companies some of their sales figures from the future. And also bully you back then, too.
The most poisonous and subversive claim they can make to demoralise you is to appeal to your better nature, your compassion. But do not believe him. All his words are lies. The only use they have for your compassion is a lever to compel your obedience and eventually, your submission
Amen, a thousand times amen. They are psychopaths and they are at war with us. They mean to destroy us and everything we love. We had damn well better wake up to that fact.
Wargaming is too grognard for me, except for a few computer adaptations. Still, love checking out the hobby from time to time. I hate seeing whats happened to DnD, it used to be so cool.
I am actually working on my own tabletop skirmish/dungeon crawler game. It is not for everyone, and it doesn't have to be. The key points I make about my game: >Characters are custom-made from the ground up, so you can make your character based on your favorite miniature. >The core mechanics will be public domain/open source- so people can make whatever campaign/missions/narratives they want. >The entire game system is designed as a dungeon-crawling skirmish combat game with roleplaying elements, but it's open and modular so you can create the gaming experience you want. I tell people those things, and some 'certain types' are *still* asking me how many brown people, wheelchairs, homosexuals, or fat women I'm going to have in the game. So I have to explain to them that if they want these things, there's nothing stopping them from adding them to the game at all. Once they realize that the game is more about your own creativity as a player (and thus requires you to do something with your own imagination), they shut down, glitch out, and lose all interest. That is why we Gatekeep our hobbies- because the threats aren't 'other players we disagree with', they're people who see you and your friends as weak targets. They don't want to play, they want to dominate your fun and bully you. There is absolutely no shame in telling them to go piss up a rope, play in traffic, and kick rocks- and then laugh at them when they walk away weeping. *That's what they wanted to do to you.*
Simple, this has nothing to do with being friendly and all inclusive. These guys want to get into every facet of your life so they can deliver their totalitarian propaganda to you. You will adhere to the state even in your games comrade.
Late to the comments section, but I hope my comment is important. I'm switching over from roleplaying to war gaming specifically because where I feel like I'm not wanted, I think more tactically than the Modern Game requires me to be, and my personal/religious beliefs have made people feel uncomfortable. ( Socially conservative Christian.) and I can't be the DM/gm/ ref all the time for people who don't appreciate the effort it takes I'm in my early thirties and lost my wife a few years back, I got into war gaming around the time she passed and enjoy two skirmish level games at this point: Blood and Valor and now the rerelease of Quar. I don't want to play Warhammer because it and the players take it too seriously when it's supposed to a parody. I feel right at home with my history degree talking to other history nerds about stuff. Even if I'm just lurking and not engaging. It feels really good seeing battle reports and paint guides. I understand me saying let Warhammer die is defeatists, because biggest thing means more palyers. But that is not necessarilly good for the community if it gets mainstream. I Once I get an actual day off at work when people don't call in sick, I'm going to head to my flgs and try to get people interested in Quar. I'm sure it's unique models will get people interested. Rambles over, the TL;DR: anything non Warhammer is a great community right now, if we keep it, we need to do what Hank Hill says when we see crap go " Calmly but Firmly ask them to leave."
Hobby..hobby-horse - something you like to ride by yourself for fun. As Sterne wrote '"Have not the wisest men in all ages had their Hobby-Horses;-their coins, cockle-shells, drums, trumpets, fiddles, pallets, maggots and their butterflies?" GW had to invent thier own universe in order to force unity and compliance in their fantasy gaming. No such chance in war gaming.
Not everything can appeal to everyone. Learning this is a pretty foundational part of being an adult. You're on the right road, because the people railing against 'gatekeeping' invariably just want to burrow into your hobby like a parasite and metamorphose it into it a vehicle for their political ideology.
I can recall a time when Warhammer and Battle tech players were the odd ducks in the game shop. At this time historic players were viewed as more normal, but still the turbo dorks. I feel that you are correct on the level of the "inclusivity pimps" psyche. I also feel that companies have parasitically latched onto this as a means to make more money. Two groups of useful idiots exploiting one another. One can only hope they cannibalize themselves at some point.
Wokeism is closely tied to the normalization of formerly fringe hobbies. I have some theories and evidence about why this is, but it's too long to put into comments. In any event, it is obvious that large corporations want to 'mainstream' niche items, and since they can't do that with a niche item without fundamentally altering it, they have no problem doing so. Inevitably this sets them at variance with the original fanbase.
@@attentionspanlabs you and I have both paid attention to this process. My core issue is that one seeks to erode everything, under the assumption that it has any potential to survive in the absence of the civilization that sustains it (wokeism). The other seeks to shoehorn itself into absolutely everything, because it never can have enough money (corporatism). These two are making out in a corner before they "hate" bone one another. We get left cleaning the sheets.
If you don't gatekeep what you love, you'll certainly find it overrun by people that hate it, and want to change it for the worse in the name of "diversity".
Their gods are money and wickedness. Their state, Babylon. Their weapons, lies, manipulation, and unprovoked violence. Let us see too it our weapons of truth, vigilance, and action serve the eternal God well.
Risking insult and misunderstanding, I would like to respectfully discuss a couple of points you make. First of all, you are obviously American. This is not ment as an insult, but it permeates your examples. You live in a very polirized society, where everything is used as a political weapon. I am a teacher in a very isolated part of the world, far from stores and conventions, and do activities for students to be introduced to wargaming. Those activities are, or tru ro be, inclusive, not a dirty or bad word outside the US. You are right when you say that wargaming is not for everyone, but it should be accessible to everyone. Me, and some of those that I have played with, have some very bad experiences with gatekeepers. Too foreigner, too civilian, wrong color. My point being that, while I fundamentally agree with your premise, I can not see being inclusive as a bad thing, or gatekeeping as the universal remedy. Probably, as your opinion comes from a fundamentally American point of view, my opinion comws from a fundamentally european point of view, where politization, and politization are not the reality of everyday life. Congratulations on a good video, with good points for discussion.
Is Europe less politicized and suffering less convergence in positions of power by anti-human forces? I doubt it, but I will defer to your experience in the matter. Leaving aside the larger question of whether or not it is ever appropriate to restrict membership based on race, ethnicity, occupation, religion, and so forth (I believe it is, but never mind), I don't think there's much of an argument against gatekeeping people who don't actually like wargames. If you feel guilty about such a thing, then I suggest your guilt has been weaponized against you by people of bad faith. Ask yourself instead what the point is, and why people who don't actually like or care about military history or toy soldiers or whatever are trying to force their way into the hobby? Why are they wasting time trying to fundamentally change something that they have no real interest in? It reveals a nefarious agenda. We are not obligated to be inclusive to thugs and vandals. Thank you for your thoughtful comment!
@@attentionspanlabs thank you for your reply, truthfully. I will start by saying that I have been to the East Coast (North and South) several times on work, and also lived and worked in Spain and the UK (I am Portuguese). I can assure you that both the opinions and the positions are far, far less politicized in Europe. Do not take this as a criticism, it is not, but it is harder to have polarized opinions when you have five to six political parties. I fundamentally disagree that people should have their qccess limited to something because of religion, gender or whatever. Their only limitation, and this is the point on I think we agree, shpuld be their love of wargaming (or their interest to learn). I have played with and against people I don't like, and that don't like me, and we enjoyed the hobby non the less (you made that point in your video, I think). Being very clear, I was living in Spain when neo nazi groups tried to invade the WH 40k tournaments, and saw in the UK many "alternative lifestyle" representatives try to ban "bad" forces from tournaments. Both are bad, in both cases the community stepped up. I think that is what gatekeepers should do, and I hope that was your point. Idiots exist everywhere, some left, some right, some middle, some new players, some veteran players. This is a very niche hobby, and we should, in my opinion, be as inclusive as possible towards those that want to try. Again, thank you for your response. As we say here, it is talking that people understand each other.
honestly, I am in the camp that warhammer is for everyone who actually wants to play it. not people trying to use politics in their hobbies, like sigmarxists. just keep your real world stuff out and I'll play against anyone, really.
@@frogblasttheventcore69 Your analysis is the beginning of understanding the situation, but there is more to it. It's true that wargaming is about wargaming, and it's true that a lot of people are using it to advance an ideology that don't care about wargaming at all. But it is also true that there are people who do want to wargame, but are also interested in advancing degenerate social, political, or blasphemous agendas, and it is OK to exclude them, too. Where the rubber meets the road for any hobby is how individuals and small groups carry on , and there doesn't need to be sweeping statements or 'standards of conduct' put out by large institutions (or least of all by corporations). Also, you used 'warhammer' as a placeholder for wargaming, so I inevitably assume you're relatively new to the scene.
@@attentionspanlabs I am not new to the scene. I had the 'warhammer is for everyone' thing in my head when typing this. I will have to disagree with you on some parts there, it seems, if i may assume, that me 'understanding' the situation, means to understand the situation from your point of view, which I will try to do, but I invite you to try to see it from mine too. It wasn't an 'analysis' I was merely sharing my personal opinion. I disapporve of anyone bringing their political agendas into the hobby, it doesn't matter what side, that was what I was saying.
@@frogblasttheventcore69 I understood what you were saying. You seem to be groping for some kind of "middle way", that if we just wall off our religion, our politics, our standards, or whatever, everything will be OK. It's a bit like people who say they defend free speech and think anything and everything can be said and we will all just get along in our values neutral, ultimately nihilistic society where truth doesn't matter. But we've been doing that for a long time in the west and 1) it's not producing anything good and 2) the other side isn't interested in getting along; they're interested in winning. Society always conforms to the least tolerant faction. Secular metaphysical materialism, and all its mutations like communism, LGBTQ+, and even 'mainstream' neoliberalism, are bloodthirsty ideologies bent on conquest. They are not the least bit interested in getting along. So I'm not calling any truces with them and I'm not playing any games with them, literally or metaphorically.
Funny thing is that I have never seen one of those vandals in the wild, ever. I have never found one at a gaming table in any store or conversation in forty plus years. Where are they? I acknowledge that there are jerks out there but I have never seen a single invader. There are plenty of jerks but there are always jerks in any group but adults know how to deal with them. So what am I missing? Am I playing the wrong games. Supposed 40k, BattleTech, and all the rest are "under siege" and we have to circle the wagons...and yet they are never at the table.... Could it just be possible that they don't exist in the real world? Perhaps they only exist in the cyber world safely hidden behind the veil of annonimaty afforded the keyboard warriors. I have had many a conversion at the table about products, companies, rules sets and lore a plenty but never one with someone who wanted to destroy a single game let alone fandom of anything I ever played. I have seen companies take a dump on us. WotC with their so called LotR Magic cards and PC D&D but never anyone who agreed with it. Plenty of WTF is this crap conversations mind you! You know it's bad when the store owner sends an email letting you know he processed a refund on your box of Magic cards because he wouldn't be trying to pawn that crap on anyone. ( Kudos to him ) Has ANYONE ever actually seen one of these people? Please let me know, in the meantime I am going to be upgrading my game room and studio.
They are rarer at the tabletop than they are online, for sure. This is simply because they are not actually interested in playing the game. Activism is always a low effort game for them; they do the minimum necessary to get the most attention. Building and painting an army and finding people who are willing to play with them is a much more expensive proposition. That said, they are not unknown. You are more likely to encounter them at conventions (something we also see at RPG conventions), as they can play... that is, disrupt... there more easily. They don't have to make any real investment of their own here, since they are using other people's miniatures and terrain. They need only target a couple tables and start making demands of the GM or browbeating other players to poison the atmosphere. They also know that they are less likely to be opposed here because the people they are disrupting having already spent a lot of time and money and don't want to risk their game getting ruined, or the organizers kicking them out for 'intolerance', or being doxxed in a public place.
You will not be playing or painting with them because they are not hobbyists. They will be hectoring, policing, and ostracizing you, as these nomadic vandals have done to everything from knitting and gardening communities to AAA video game and TTRPGs. Tolerating those who hate you and want to destroy what you love is moral superiority, it is cowardice and stupidity.
@@attentionspanlabs your talking about some entity that doesn’t exist or bearly dose. I don’t care about moral high ground I agree that if you make it all about politics you shouldn’t be at the table but that’s for both sides. Culture wars are stupid and a waste of everyone’s time. Banning one type of politics is hypocritical.
@@Wingsoficarus9868 You're either lying or you have you have willingly buried your head in the sand. Knowing nothing else about you except the very familiar and very threadbare arguments, I'd say you're an SJW type yourself. Their M.O. has always been slap you in the face with it, play dumb, say it doesn't happen, then slap you in the face with it again. We've seen your tricks. We are not surprised by them anymore.
@@attentionspanlabs I’m not a sjw I’m a Christian and a right leaning liberal. I didn’t say that i said it either Dosent happen or is very small. Just because some radicals say it’s happening on wide scale doesn’t mean it is.
@@Wingsoficarus9868 If you are a Christian then you should understand the virtue of humility and have a desire to profit from the experience of others. Just because you haven't personally encountered it doesn't mean that it's a phantasm. I have seen it and experienced it repeatedly, online and in real life, among tabletop game societies and various other, even more unlikely hobbies, as I already mentioned.
When I was looking for this picture for the thumbnail, I was shocked that Brie used to be really pretty. A decade or more ago, she could even smile. So weird.
I'm pretty sure the price point and the time and energy required to play it are good enough for gatekeeping. Especially the price point, since only the rich can truly afford it. You can cross out all the other qualifications, like creativity, intelligence, interest, time, or patience. Money is the biggest factor, and it's the only factor that counts. You can have all the other qualities in spades, but if you can't afford the minis after the next price bump, you're SOL. Good luck playing with outdated minis that are probably gonna be at the lower tier of the crunch lists while some new kid who bought all the good and new stuff wipes the floor with you, even though you spent 100 hours painting your own custom army and coming up with a story for them, while he just dipped all his Primaris boys in blue or green paint so that he can have Guilliman or Lion'El Johnson leading them to roll over your guys. Hell, a rich-enough asshole can just buy used armies that are already painted; or they can commission someone to paint their army for them. Money buys everything in this hobby more so than it does with modern video games that rely on RNG and lootboxes. At least with those games, your skill still counts, since if you encounter someone with the same stuff as you but with better reflexes, they will wipe the floor with you on the battlefield or leave you in the dust while they score all the top awards.
This is true for a certain kind of inferior wargaming, although I admit it is a very popular style of wargaming. But if you go to the conventions that I go to, and play with the sort of people I do, you see a lot of armies that are 20, 30, even 40 years old and lots of stuff done on the cheap. Officially sanctioned tournaments are especially vulnerable to the kind of problems you mention, which is why I avoid them.
thing is, most of these invaders don't really play the game, they came with the influencers that got accepted by more complacent "pillars of the community"
@@kristianvillarosa4655 one thing I notice more and more is how the "pillars" of an institution are usually craven, spineless social climbers totally unconcerned for the welfare of their in-group.
@@attentionspanlabs I see. But at that point, you'd need to be close to where a lot of good conventions are going on, or at least have the means to go there. Not everyone is that lucky.
@@attentionspanlabs Not just that, but many of them are just brown-nosers going for the newest fad. I remember how a lot of the nerd media despised fans of the old Star Wars Expanded Universe because they didn't like the new Disney SW canon. Now that Disney SW canon is petering out thanks to the failures of the Sequels, the Mandalorian, and several SW TV shows, these rags are suddenly willing to explore the SWEU from a noob's perspective. Never forget what Spoony showed about the nerd media when Ultima 9 released; they were whoring around and sucking up to it despite it being an unplayable, buggy mess that can barely function as a game.
as a person who was barred from joining historical wargaming groups because i was 16, despite having intelligence, time, creativity, and desire to play, i disagree. obviously not everything is for everybody, but that sort of take glosses over the 'it is for the person but others refuse to acknowledge that' bit. since these games require others to agree to play with you it seems like a group presupposing that certain people cannot become part of the group because of some personal bias they hold is really, really stupid.
Maybe the reason other people didn't want to play with you says more about you than it does about them? Considering how often I see grognards bending over backwards to cater to young people, it makes me wonder. Gaming is a social activity and socialization is a two-way street. No one likes to be rejected, but that's life. And you are not entitled to spend time with people who don't want to spend time with you.
@@attentionspanlabs I was a 16 year old my friend. You do not know me, and I played Malifaux and Warhammer since I was 12 and have friends still from both of those I play with as an adult. Maybe you have an agenda and you'd sooner believe I'm a bad person than consider the cognitive dissonance me not being a bad person makes with your stance.
@@MrFirefox322 There's no cognitive dissonance, you are just unable or more likely unwilling to accept the truth of what I said. It doesn't matter if you were perfectly innocent and it was all their fault. Your complaint is with the two-way nature of social interactions. You don't have to like it, but complaining about it is like complaining that if you stop eating you'll starve to death. It's just reality. There are a couple people that I would give one of my organs to, but whom I do not otherwise enjoy spending time with and would not invite to my game groups. Nevertheless, I do find your story dubious. You are correct, I don't know you, and therefore have no particular reason to believe your account. You would not be the first person to give a false or tendentious account on the Internet. The most compassionate advice that I can give to someone who says they were unjustly and inexplicably rejected from a social group is to give serious consideration to the possibility that their rejection was neither inexplicable nor unjust. The problem is that people don't actually want honest and compassionate counsel, they want to be told that they are perfect and everyone else is a dirt bag.
@@attentionspanlabs I would not be the first to lie, but I have no reason to. I understand the internet is full of trolls, but I am providing a true counter-example to the points you put forward. I can add that I did not spend much time with these people and they more "ghosted" me than actually attempted to meet me. I put these forward because, ultimately, you do not know the story and to assume you do puts you in an falsely claimed epistemic superiority; one that was not earned. I think your response that you mean to be compassionate is just, but it comes across condescending when I have worked several long years through the remnants of an abusive childhood. I am very much at peace with myself and who I am. I, rather, am trying to say that to block people from a space for no discernable reason does not engender any reason in me when, say, I am older and more acceptable to be around for that reason, to attempt to rejoin those groups. The argument is not "let me in" the argument is "needlessly kept out." I don't long to join the group of hardcore historical wargamers anymore. I play wargames of my own, and enjoy painting and building miniatures. Again, you have no reason to believe me but I do implore you to. I've not lied to you at all here, and hopefully this respectful response helps validate that fact. Gatekeeping based on shallow information is pointless and can lead to needless "keeping outs." You offer stoic consideration, I offer you Aristotelean: Age does not indicate much beyond how many years you've seen. Practical wisdom, virtue, can be found in the young and imprudence in the old. To assume otherwise is to assume unjustly.
@@MrFirefox322 Did they hear you talk about falsely claimed epistemic superiority before they ghosted you? After reading that last post I would be reluctant to play games with you, too.
Thank you for putting your opinion out. I don’t agree with your thoughts on the subject of gatekeeping. I do agree that wargaming, as well as other hobbies, books, movies, and other forms of entertainment, aren’t for everyone. But this is an individual’s choice, not yours, mine or anyone else’s. All should be welcomed into the hobby, given the chance to experience it, and make a decision if its for them. As you say, some will try to change things about the hobby; such as modify rules, pick different periods, or change the way they paint things, pick different tournament formats, etc, but this is a feature not a bug. Without various people coming into the hobby with different ideas, and preferences the hobby stagnates and does not move forward. If HG Wells didn’t decide to take Kriegspiel and add toy soldiers we may not have the hobby we have today. Another example is the COIN series of games. That is a very different implementation from the classic war games of the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s. This is why I cannot agree with your argument concerning gatekeeping. We don’t need gatekeepers, we need ambassadors. Never close the door, leave it open and welcome all people inside.
What contributions to the hobby are being made by political activists who are trying to destroy it? In what way are the contributions of H.G. Wells or the evolutionary developments from Little Wars through Chainmail and Braunstein to modern miniature wargames comparable to the subversives who insist that playing historical armies is an act of oppression, that the people who have been wargaming forever are the wrong kind of people, and that the hobby itself should be destroyed? There are none. It is a total disanalogy. In fact, this is such an egregious bit of sophistry that I don't believe for a minute your argument is sincere. I completely reject the asinine modernist bromides about all change being positive and all people being worthy of welcome. A half moment's thought reveals the stupidity of the idea, not to mention the hypocrisy of those who advance it, since I am 100% certain you do not welcome all people into your home.
Dude, it took you 7 minutes to say nothing. What do those forces of evil barbarians that you talk about want to do? What are those harmfull changes? Changing rule sets? For what game? Table etiquette? Painting your minis with speed paints? Using deodorant? Please give examples.
Why was I recommended this, then why did I watch it? Sure did broaden my mind- interesting cross-section of the ego of the USian gamer. Just play with people who you like. Wargaming isnt political- playing games with people whose opinions don't align with your own is a symptom of living in a society of hundreds of millions. You sounds kind of young so I'd understand if your schedule isn't fully under your control, if you end up playing a lot of pickup games with beginners at your local wargames store, and if you haven't found a group yet. Maybe you're part of wargaming communities online, and you've developed an image of what wargaming "done right" looks like. Try not to hold onto that. There is no right way to enjoy stuff. You're going to find a wargaming club/circle that is right for you, and make friends who are into the game. You hold some pretty extreme opinions on this, can I ask you how long you've been playing for, and what games?
Very nearly everything you said is incorrect, from your dismal comprehension of the video and your childish and tendentious restatement of it to your assessment of my experience in wargaming, which amounts to 30 years and almost never at stores or "pickup games with beginners." Go gamma somewhere else.
@attentionspanlabs What part of my comment is tendentious? What narrative do you think I'm trying to push? Maybe my assumptions about your gaming background were incorrect- the rest is purely my opinion though. My comprehension isn't the problem- I simply cannot see the reason anyone would ever feel the need to write, record and publish a video like this without having been specifically and repeatedly rejected by the wider gaming culture. Your defensive posturing and (get your bingo cards out) pseudointellectual position of "you are wrong and I'm not obliged to do any self-reflection" kind of confirmed my concerns? Also, as someone who attends games clubs, I don't know what "gamma"-ing is.
@@tentimestay9181 Your comprehension is so poor that your patronizing advice to me to "just play with people you like" is merely a dumbed-down restatement of the necessity of gatekeeping. Despite being the entire point of the video, it somehow escaped your notice. Given that extreme cluelessness, I am not all surprised that you "simply cannot see the reason" I made the video, nor am I the slightest bit surprised by your sad attempt to psychologize me based on imaginary trauma. You are correct about one thing, though: that your smug and inane criticism does not stir me to self-reflection.
@@attentionspanlabs Not criticism. It might sound like it though. I'll watch the video again (you're welcome), bear with me. (edit) I want to know who the malicious influencers trying to change the hobby are. If people are gonna take action about this then you have to be more specific. Is it young people? Unpainted armies? 40k fans who like female space marines? 3d printing fans? Tabletop content creators? I am not trying to psychologize you, never trying to talk about trauma, just experience. I was off the mark with my opinion in a TH-cam comment. I still think it was pretty extreme to make some of those comparisons and draw some of those lines. I mean, from the start we have common ground about what the hobby "should" maybe be like, but my hobby experience has never been influenced by any of the threats you hinted at.
Over 5,000 views and scores of comments and you are the only person who doesn't know who I'm talking about, even though I said who I was talking about in the video. Even the other negative commenters perfectly understood who I was talking about. You're welcome to keep commenting and boosting the algorithm, but I'm not interested in helping you play dumb.
I found this a pretty odd rant. Toward the end you acknowledge the diversity (scary word) of who we are as wargamers, but treat wargaming as a united bloc that has to protected from the wrong kind of people. Which is it? Traditional wargaming is a particular multidisciplinary hobby. Inevitably there are going to be people we might not think "suitable" to enjoy "our" hobby. It's because of the inherent barriers (You covered them well enough) that we shoulkdn't have to worry about proactively gatekeeping; The hobby sorts itself. I'm new to your channel. It came up because I searched, "wargaming imagi-nations" (It's nice to see what others are up to). I'm unfamiliar with you, but your commentary suggests a more orthodox historical or modern area of interest. Someone ho gravitates toward 40k primarily might not gel wwith your group even if you begrudgingly acknowledge them, but who is the vandal? There are so many different places beneath the broader wargaming umbrella I think it ould be impossible to dismiss someone as not being wargaming material. That said, and you covered it as well, sometimes free beer wouldn't be enough. People might not be a good fit for our own gaming group or more broadly speaking our particular niche within the broader hobby, but that shouldn't necessitate a call to arms of the gatekeeping society across the internet. Nice looking terrain by the way. Those were some impressive setups in the stills that accompanied your speech.
I spelled it out quite clearly in the video. If you still can't figure out what it means to say that wargaming is a hobby for wargamers and not for activists looking for yet another vector for their ideologies, I can't spoon-feed it to you anymore. Try thinking about it without your ideological blinders on. I agree the tables are impressive. I mentioned in the description where they come from.
Uh.. maybe I'm out of the loop.. but who the hell is saying that "Wargaming is (or SHOULD) be for everyone?" And.. "top surgery"? I fail to see how that is relevant at all. Do you also make videos about how the guy down the street from me says "wargaming sucks"? Just because someone makes a statement.. means absolutely nothing. Don't fall for the bait.
Lots of people say it about everything. That X "is for everyone" is one of the great shibboleths of the age. In fact, the largest miniature games company said exactly that a few years ago in the midst of one of our society-wide struggle sessions. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're just playing dumb.
@@mk.ultra9968 Thousands of people have watched this video. There are over 150 comments. You are the first and only one who doesn't know what I'm talking about. Even those who came on here to disagree with me know what I'm talking about. Maybe it's you.
As he stated the thoughts of others, I assert he is political. We can be political if we want. If you think there can bo no politics in wargaming, you may lack observational capacity?
LOL. Do you regret being so emotionally incontinent that you immediately reject someone's opinion on Subject A because of their opinion on Subject B? 'Transphobic' -- Care to explain what you mean by that? An arachnophobe is afraid of spiders and an agoraphobe is afraid of open spaces, but I'm certainly not afraid of delusional self-mutilators. What is 'reasonable' about the false belief that sex doesn't exist and that the world should conform to someone with objectively false perception of themselves? Why don't you just say what you mean? Your wordspell has no power here.
And you, as a gamma, just knew everyone needed to see this sadly boring and meaningless comment. I'm sure there's more anodyne content on TH-cam. Avail yourself of it.
Or you could not just play with them but yes TT games are for everyone juswt like video games, Movies, Books and music it's just a medium and keeping the industry small is just stupid as you will have less money to make better games... Which if you worried that vido games will add extrtessarals to battletech you reall have no idea how game design works.
@@attentionspanlabs Answered like a perfect gamer-bro, incel and crypto-fascist. The only thing you seem to bang regularly are your bacon-fists on the table when someone beats you at a game. Pls touch some grass and get therapy.
Otto, every word that passes your mutant lips is projection. We all know it; we've seen it before. The perpetuation of my bloodline is secured for at least another generation, while your soy-shrivelled hands have never touched a born woman. Your line will pass into extinction with you, and all of your unopened, unpainted, and unplayed miniatures will be sold for discount on eBay by your fourth cousin inheritors.
Gatekeeping is idiotic and the sad wee examples of humanity you see doing it online are doubly so. You guys spend a bizarre amount of your online time devoted to impotently mewling into the void about a problem that exists only in your heads.
That's funny, I don't recall you ever saying you enjoyed this channel, since this is your first and only comment on it. And I posted this video months ago, so I doubt you're a regular watcher. Pray tell, what videos did you enjoy previously?
I agree with the general sentiment and all, but also it's just a hobby not some righteous crusade destined by God for only the lions of our era, try not to sniff your own farts too hard!
Well done, cool disaffected kid, well done. Nobody gets higher on their own flatulence than the disaffected poseurs who think they are "too far above all this petty stuff". Nothing is so terminally uncool than taking anything seriously. The exact right emphasis is always that which you give something, which is always nothing.
@@attentionspanlabs Ive been playing for nearly ten years. I used to play 40k but nowadays i mostly play Skirmish scale. You checking for base credentials like this tells me all i need to know about you.
'people who want to destroy the things you love because they love nothing.'
Well said!
Anyone can began a hobby in Tabletop Wargaming, however a hobby in Tabletop Wargaming is not for everyone.
What I find most interesting about the current times is that the people who protest don't create their own things as an alternative. They just want to tear down what already exists. Thank you for the video.
Yes, both because creating is beyond their capacities and has nothing to do with their objectives, which is literally to destroy whatever other people love. They attack old women's knitting communities, for God's sake! The activists also don't buy anything. We've seen this over and over in comics, video games, movies, TV...
You have to understand where it all comes from. These subversives were trained to hate anything that doesn't appeal to their specific tastes. As one feminist famously said, ''everything is racist, everything is sexist, everything is homophobic, and you have to point it all out.'' Even though such a statement is an exaggeration of the truth to the point where it's ridiculous, no sensible person would accept it. But that is the viewpoint where they're all coming from. It came from people in propaganda spaces filled with people who are miffed at the fact that others are having fun without them; they're angry that other people aren't angry at what they perceive to be societal injustices, and so they want to drag everyone down and make everyone miserable.
Nani? Are you not aware of the Iron Age?
@@Darek_B52 They've got a long way to go.
They can not make
They can only mock
Gatekeeping is the immune system of communities
Anyone who doesn't want gatekeeping wants the hobby to get AIDS
The real wargaming said they were going to donate money to ukraine but reality their supporting russia and fascist republicans as they hide in their states from paying out that money o right nice letting war gaming drag your name down with them
I remember going on a Capital Radio (London in the eighties) game show, I listed one of my hobbies as Wargaming, the host a Canadian I think took exception to the term, and asked me on air, don't people die in War. I said yes but they don't die playing Wargames. I was asked to in the quiz to spell annunciation, I spelled it correctly but the host called it as wrong, there were complaints from listeners, so they asked me to go back on air, the DJ was a jerk so I declined, as he was ignorant on two count's. Wargamers are not violent people, the last place they would actually want to be is in a real war, they have a respect for history and the people who were caught up in these events.
The real wargaming said they were going to donate money to ukraine but reality their supporting russia and fascist republicans as they hide in their states from paying out that money o right nice letting war gaming drag your name down with them
I myseld am a black man in my twenties. I was mocked for several years by people who all now consume and cause the shitty state of anime, tabletop games, etc. While the people who they say ruin the hobby (the older white men) had never been anything but acxepting to me because we share rhe same common love for pushing little men on tables.
Welcome, brother wargamer! Go forth and defend your hobby!
Not everything is for everyone, this should be obvious obvious after a moment of thought.
But saying that girls, liberals, video gamer or who ever the other is can't play and you should be toxic to them is just stupid and toxic.
@greenbluewalkthrough As we've come to expect from your ilk, you are a liar and you have nothing interesting to say on the subject. You talk in cliches. We've heard them all before and we are not fooled. We know what you're up to.
@@GreenBlueWalkthrough go fail at frogger.
The real wargaming said they were going to donate money to ukraine but reality their supporting russia and fascist republicans as they hide in their states from paying out that money o right nice letting war gaming drag your name down with them
@@attentionspanlabs Damn I wish I could see what he said haha
Just play what you like, like what you play AND learn to say no. Cowardice will be your downfall.
We tend to avoid confrontation, but our enemies do not.
Well said. It’s time we fight back for what is right. Thanks for speaking the truth
You have put this better than most of us could, chap.
Thank you for listening!
The real wargaming said they were going to donate money to ukraine but reality their supporting russia and fascist republicans as they hide in their states from paying out that money o right nice letting war gaming drag your name down with them
Very well said Sir! Thank you.
God Bless you. 😊
Thanks for your support!
"It doesn't change the way the game is enjoyed" is the most common phrase I hear from very complacent people.
It certainly ruins my enjoyment.
My 10 years old daughter is a wargamer. She plays with me and different adults as also two boys different wargames, because she likes playing and good stories to be told.
Excellent!
*I approve of this message*
The devil can pervert anything, but he can't pervert love, so he has to throw counterfeits. Hate is one, like crazy teeth bearing hate for one kind of person is actually love for that person's opposition. Lust. Indulgence. Never love.
A keen observation.
sniff...my heart is fortified.
Spot on, the hobby is for unique individuals who like interesting things, this does not include everyone. Not everyone likes; gambling, sports, cricket or playing ping pong that's how things should be, we are all different, especially Wargaming!
Remember, diversity is the only strength that makes wargaming work... Daddy Hasbro said so!
It is instructive that "reaching the widest possible audience" always somehow leads to the exclusion of the people who originally liked the thing.
Just look at all the things Hasbro has done to make 5e "better"!
And by that, I mean...
>Removing things from the game to make it easier for people
>Rewriting stuff from previous editions, but making it worse
>Adding unusuable, broken content via Unearthed Arcana
>Corginians (I hope whoever did this gets leukemia)
>Strixhaven (I hope whoever did this gets leukemia and leprosy)
@@elijahherstal776 Part of the reason for this is short term profits. Many companies are perfectly happy to alienate their existing fan base if they can appeal to a different group because "new" customers usually spend more money in the short term than existing customers. It's a poor LONG term approach but can boost short term profits. Once the Critical Role "RPG's are cool" fad passes (which is probably already happening) WOTC is going to find that they no longer have ANY customers since they alienated all their core fans over the last several years.
Very eloquently spoken, thank you.
Thanks for watching.
Malicious and hateful is exactly correct, the Vandals do not deserve the benefit of the doubt
FINALLY! Someone with some sense!
Thanks for watching!
ASL BACK WITH ANOTHER CLASSIC! If we don't gatekeep, we will lose what we enjoy.
I'm only saying what we all already know, brother.
well said sir, well said
don't remember where I saw it or who said it, but the saying was "Wargaming is for anyone, not everyone".
The hobby is for anyone but not for everyone.
But that doesn't mean we can't try to make it for as many people as possible. But Gatekeeping is THE most important thing.
Honestly this is something that needs to be said about all genres and niches.
Remember a few years ago that every horror game had to become more and more action. Not "action horror" exactly but instead become simple action games. Sure Dead Space 3 had monsters but it had dropped nearly all of it's identity. No longer was blasting off limbs the way to win. No instead it gave way to just using full auto and hitting center mass. Something that in the prior 2 games and extended lore landed anyone in a heap of necromorph trouble.
Gaming use to have attitude back in the 2000's. peaked around MW2, Halo 3, and the like. Ever since it has become more and more watered down and made for general audiences.
Now trash talking is discouraged, female sexiness is frowned upon to the point of being blocked from tournaments (DOA) and the whole AAA sphere has become sterile with microtransactions.
All I got to say is Hail the Iron Age because what's at the top simply is too corrupted.
@@Gortboy2k11 well in this hypothetical I'd be CEO of EA and not destroy my horror properties. Read. I put the solution in there.
or look at
Metal Gear Survive
Lost Planet 3
or Dead Rising 4.
@@Gortboy2k11 Bully harder. That's what I'd do.
Hey, that game of the year you're showing in your channel? Elden Ring?
It didn't bend the knee to cretins, and look how successful it was.
Everything else that went the route of 'appeasing the masses for a buck' turned into a stinking, worthless heap of trash- very much like your own mother.
@@Gortboy2k11 company? No, I'm talking about people like you. Unrelenting verbal, and possibly physical abuse.
And were I to go back in time?
I'd show a few companies some of their sales figures from the future.
And also bully you back then, too.
@@Gortboy2k11 also, I'd teach them the Phantom Customer Fallacy.
That's FALLACY, not PHALLUS, stop drooling.
@@Gortboy2k11 You're the one that suggested time travel. You are such a sad little man.
The most poisonous and subversive claim they can make to demoralise you is to appeal to your better nature, your compassion. But do not believe him. All his words are lies. The only use they have for your compassion is a lever to compel your obedience and eventually, your submission
Amen, a thousand times amen. They are psychopaths and they are at war with us. They mean to destroy us and everything we love. We had damn well better wake up to that fact.
Wargaming is too grognard for me, except for a few computer adaptations. Still, love checking out the hobby from time to time. I hate seeing whats happened to DnD, it used to be so cool.
The song is the same in every hobby. As I mentioned in some other comments, the activists have even been tearing apart knitting and gardening clubs.
I still laugh that WOTC came out and said "race mixing bad"
@@Darek_B52 Of course. They are also the crowd that kept saying orcs were blacks. I couldn't dream of being so racist as the anti-racists.
Based
I am actually working on my own tabletop skirmish/dungeon crawler game. It is not for everyone, and it doesn't have to be. The key points I make about my game:
>Characters are custom-made from the ground up, so you can make your character based on your favorite miniature.
>The core mechanics will be public domain/open source- so people can make whatever campaign/missions/narratives they want.
>The entire game system is designed as a dungeon-crawling skirmish combat game with roleplaying elements, but it's open and modular so you can create the gaming experience you want.
I tell people those things, and some 'certain types' are *still* asking me how many brown people, wheelchairs, homosexuals, or fat women I'm going to have in the game. So I have to explain to them that if they want these things, there's nothing stopping them from adding them to the game at all. Once they realize that the game is more about your own creativity as a player (and thus requires you to do something with your own imagination), they shut down, glitch out, and lose all interest.
That is why we Gatekeep our hobbies- because the threats aren't 'other players we disagree with', they're people who see you and your friends as weak targets. They don't want to play, they want to dominate your fun and bully you. There is absolutely no shame in telling them to go piss up a rope, play in traffic, and kick rocks- and then laugh at them when they walk away weeping. *That's what they wanted to do to you.*
Amen, amen
Simple, this has nothing to do with being friendly and all inclusive. These guys want to get into every facet of your life so they can deliver their totalitarian propaganda to you. You will adhere to the state even in your games comrade.
They intend that there be no escape from the satanic prison they've contrived, not even in your own mind.
@@attentionspanlabs Right on.
like cancer.
Late to the comments section, but I hope my comment is important.
I'm switching over from roleplaying to war gaming specifically because where I feel like I'm not wanted, I think more tactically than the Modern Game requires me to be, and my personal/religious beliefs have made people feel uncomfortable. ( Socially conservative Christian.) and I can't be the DM/gm/ ref all the time for people who don't appreciate the effort it takes
I'm in my early thirties and lost my wife a few years back, I got into war gaming around the time she passed and enjoy two skirmish level games at this point: Blood and Valor and now the rerelease of Quar. I don't want to play Warhammer because it and the players take it too seriously when it's supposed to a parody. I feel right at home with my history degree talking to other history nerds about stuff. Even if I'm just lurking and not engaging. It feels really good seeing battle reports and paint guides.
I understand me saying let Warhammer die is defeatists, because biggest thing means more palyers. But that is not necessarilly good for the community if it gets mainstream. I
Once I get an actual day off at work when people don't call in sick, I'm going to head to my flgs and try to get people interested in Quar. I'm sure it's unique models will get people interested.
Rambles over, the TL;DR: anything non Warhammer is a great community right now, if we keep it, we need to do what Hank Hill says when we see crap go " Calmly but Firmly ask them to leave."
@@talldorf6445 God bless you, and may your wife's memory be eternal!
Hobby..hobby-horse - something you like to ride by yourself for fun. As Sterne wrote '"Have not the wisest men in all ages had their Hobby-Horses;-their coins, cockle-shells, drums, trumpets, fiddles, pallets, maggots and their butterflies?" GW had to invent thier own universe in order to force unity and compliance in their fantasy gaming. No such chance in war gaming.
Not everything can appeal to everyone. Learning this is a pretty foundational part of being an adult.
You're on the right road, because the people railing against 'gatekeeping' invariably just want to burrow into your hobby like a parasite and metamorphose it into it a vehicle for their political ideology.
I can recall a time when Warhammer and Battle tech players were the odd ducks in the game shop. At this time historic players were viewed as more normal, but still the turbo dorks.
I feel that you are correct on the level of the "inclusivity pimps" psyche. I also feel that companies have parasitically latched onto this as a means to make more money. Two groups of useful idiots exploiting one another. One can only hope they cannibalize themselves at some point.
Wokeism is closely tied to the normalization of formerly fringe hobbies. I have some theories and evidence about why this is, but it's too long to put into comments. In any event, it is obvious that large corporations want to 'mainstream' niche items, and since they can't do that with a niche item without fundamentally altering it, they have no problem doing so. Inevitably this sets them at variance with the original fanbase.
@@attentionspanlabs you and I have both paid attention to this process. My core issue is that one seeks to erode everything, under the assumption that it has any potential to survive in the absence of the civilization that sustains it (wokeism). The other seeks to shoehorn itself into absolutely everything, because it never can have enough money (corporatism). These two are making out in a corner before they "hate" bone one another. We get left cleaning the sheets.
Well said, brother.
Thanks for watching!
If you don't gatekeep what you love, you'll certainly find it overrun by people that hate it, and want to change it for the worse in the name of "diversity".
Defend the walls! Let no invaders pass!
@@attentionspanlabs Gatekeeping begins at our own tables.
Damn well said! Great video!
Thanks for listening. Now go out and make it happen in the real world!
Well stated!
Thank you for listening.
Their gods are money and wickedness. Their state, Babylon. Their weapons, lies, manipulation, and unprovoked violence. Let us see too it our weapons of truth, vigilance, and action serve the eternal God well.
Christus Vincit! IC XC NIKA!
👍. Well Said
"The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal."
The pursuit of different goods must be tolerated, but Evil, never.
@@attentionspanlabs "There is no such thing as innocence. Only degrees of guilt."
Yes please! It's for me! Yahoo!
This is Axis and Allies for me. I'm WARHAMMER40K
I don't understand. Can you clarify?
good post
well said!
Thanks for watching.
Damn fine video
Thank you for listening.
Risking insult and misunderstanding, I would like to respectfully discuss a couple of points you make.
First of all, you are obviously American. This is not ment as an insult, but it permeates your examples. You live in a very polirized society, where everything is used as a political weapon.
I am a teacher in a very isolated part of the world, far from stores and conventions, and do activities for students to be introduced to wargaming. Those activities are, or tru ro be, inclusive, not a dirty or bad word outside the US. You are right when you say that wargaming is not for everyone, but it should be accessible to everyone.
Me, and some of those that I have played with, have some very bad experiences with gatekeepers. Too foreigner, too civilian, wrong color. My point being that, while I fundamentally agree with your premise, I can not see being inclusive as a bad thing, or gatekeeping as the universal remedy.
Probably, as your opinion comes from a fundamentally American point of view, my opinion comws from a fundamentally european point of view, where politization, and politization are not the reality of everyday life.
Congratulations on a good video, with good points for discussion.
Is Europe less politicized and suffering less convergence in positions of power by anti-human forces? I doubt it, but I will defer to your experience in the matter. Leaving aside the larger question of whether or not it is ever appropriate to restrict membership based on race, ethnicity, occupation, religion, and so forth (I believe it is, but never mind), I don't think there's much of an argument against gatekeeping people who don't actually like wargames. If you feel guilty about such a thing, then I suggest your guilt has been weaponized against you by people of bad faith. Ask yourself instead what the point is, and why people who don't actually like or care about military history or toy soldiers or whatever are trying to force their way into the hobby? Why are they wasting time trying to fundamentally change something that they have no real interest in? It reveals a nefarious agenda. We are not obligated to be inclusive to thugs and vandals.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment!
@@attentionspanlabs thank you for your reply, truthfully.
I will start by saying that I have been to the East Coast (North and South) several times on work, and also lived and worked in Spain and the UK (I am Portuguese). I can assure you that both the opinions and the positions are far, far less politicized in Europe. Do not take this as a criticism, it is not, but it is harder to have polarized opinions when you have five to six political parties.
I fundamentally disagree that people should have their qccess limited to something because of religion, gender or whatever. Their only limitation, and this is the point on I think we agree, shpuld be their love of wargaming (or their interest to learn). I have played with and against people I don't like, and that don't like me, and we enjoyed the hobby non the less (you made that point in your video, I think).
Being very clear, I was living in Spain when neo nazi groups tried to invade the WH 40k tournaments, and saw in the UK many "alternative lifestyle" representatives try to ban "bad" forces from tournaments. Both are bad, in both cases the community stepped up. I think that is what gatekeepers should do, and I hope that was your point.
Idiots exist everywhere, some left, some right, some middle, some new players, some veteran players. This is a very niche hobby, and we should, in my opinion, be as inclusive as possible towards those that want to try.
Again, thank you for your response. As we say here, it is talking that people understand each other.
Well said mate, well said.
honestly, I am in the camp that warhammer is for everyone who actually wants to play it. not people trying to use politics in their hobbies, like sigmarxists. just keep your real world stuff out and I'll play against anyone, really.
This is the beginning, but only the very beginning, of understanding.
@@attentionspanlabs understanding what? i think i need some context
@@frogblasttheventcore69 Your analysis is the beginning of understanding the situation, but there is more to it. It's true that wargaming is about wargaming, and it's true that a lot of people are using it to advance an ideology that don't care about wargaming at all. But it is also true that there are people who do want to wargame, but are also interested in advancing degenerate social, political, or blasphemous agendas, and it is OK to exclude them, too. Where the rubber meets the road for any hobby is how individuals and small groups carry on , and there doesn't need to be sweeping statements or 'standards of conduct' put out by large institutions (or least of all by corporations).
Also, you used 'warhammer' as a placeholder for wargaming, so I inevitably assume you're relatively new to the scene.
@@attentionspanlabs I am not new to the scene. I had the 'warhammer is for everyone' thing in my head when typing this. I will have to disagree with you on some parts there, it seems, if i may assume, that me 'understanding' the situation, means to understand the situation from your point of view, which I will try to do, but I invite you to try to see it from mine too. It wasn't an 'analysis' I was merely sharing my personal opinion. I disapporve of anyone bringing their political agendas into the hobby, it doesn't matter what side, that was what I was saying.
@@frogblasttheventcore69 I understood what you were saying. You seem to be groping for some kind of "middle way", that if we just wall off our religion, our politics, our standards, or whatever, everything will be OK. It's a bit like people who say they defend free speech and think anything and everything can be said and we will all just get along in our values neutral, ultimately nihilistic society where truth doesn't matter. But we've been doing that for a long time in the west and 1) it's not producing anything good and 2) the other side isn't interested in getting along; they're interested in winning.
Society always conforms to the least tolerant faction. Secular metaphysical materialism, and all its mutations like communism, LGBTQ+, and even 'mainstream' neoliberalism, are bloodthirsty ideologies bent on conquest. They are not the least bit interested in getting along. So I'm not calling any truces with them and I'm not playing any games with them, literally or metaphorically.
Wait... what about Dorn vs. Caesar? Who is better?
Caesar wouldn't have fallen for that phony fortress trick.
@@attentionspanlabs 😅
Funny thing is that I have never seen one of those vandals in the wild, ever. I have never found one at a gaming table in any store or conversation in forty plus years. Where are they? I acknowledge that there are jerks out there but I have never seen a single invader. There are plenty of jerks but there are always jerks in any group but adults know how to deal with them.
So what am I missing? Am I playing the wrong games. Supposed 40k, BattleTech, and all the rest are "under siege" and we have to circle the wagons...and yet they are never at the table....
Could it just be possible that they don't exist in the real world? Perhaps they only exist in the cyber world safely hidden behind the veil of annonimaty afforded the keyboard warriors. I have had many a conversion at the table about products, companies, rules sets and lore a plenty but never one with someone who wanted to destroy a single game let alone fandom of anything I ever played.
I have seen companies take a dump on us. WotC with their so called LotR Magic cards and PC D&D but never anyone who agreed with it. Plenty of WTF is this crap conversations mind you! You know it's bad when the store owner sends an email letting you know he processed a refund on your box of Magic cards because he wouldn't be trying to pawn that crap on anyone. ( Kudos to him )
Has ANYONE ever actually seen one of these people? Please let me know, in the meantime I am going to be upgrading my game room and studio.
They are rarer at the tabletop than they are online, for sure. This is simply because they are not actually interested in playing the game. Activism is always a low effort game for them; they do the minimum necessary to get the most attention. Building and painting an army and finding people who are willing to play with them is a much more expensive proposition.
That said, they are not unknown. You are more likely to encounter them at conventions (something we also see at RPG conventions), as they can play... that is, disrupt... there more easily. They don't have to make any real investment of their own here, since they are using other people's miniatures and terrain. They need only target a couple tables and start making demands of the GM or browbeating other players to poison the atmosphere. They also know that they are less likely to be opposed here because the people they are disrupting having already spent a lot of time and money and don't want to risk their game getting ruined, or the organizers kicking them out for 'intolerance', or being doxxed in a public place.
"Old man yells at cloud"
How did I know that some free thinker was going to quote a 21 year old episode of a 36 year old cartoon that hasn't been funny in 23 years?
I mean, who cares it’s a hobby. I will not gatekeep it from the “wrong people”. More hobbyist are more people for me to paint and play with.
You will not be playing or painting with them because they are not hobbyists. They will be hectoring, policing, and ostracizing you, as these nomadic vandals have done to everything from knitting and gardening communities to AAA video game and TTRPGs. Tolerating those who hate you and want to destroy what you love is moral superiority, it is cowardice and stupidity.
@@attentionspanlabs your talking about some entity that doesn’t exist or bearly dose. I don’t care about moral high ground I agree that if you make it all about politics you shouldn’t be at the table but that’s for both sides. Culture wars are stupid and a waste of everyone’s time. Banning one type of politics is hypocritical.
@@Wingsoficarus9868 You're either lying or you have you have willingly buried your head in the sand. Knowing nothing else about you except the very familiar and very threadbare arguments, I'd say you're an SJW type yourself. Their M.O. has always been slap you in the face with it, play dumb, say it doesn't happen, then slap you in the face with it again. We've seen your tricks. We are not surprised by them anymore.
@@attentionspanlabs I’m not a sjw I’m a Christian and a right leaning liberal. I didn’t say that i said it either Dosent happen or is very small. Just because some radicals say it’s happening on wide scale doesn’t mean it is.
@@Wingsoficarus9868 If you are a Christian then you should understand the virtue of humility and have a desire to profit from the experience of others. Just because you haven't personally encountered it doesn't mean that it's a phantasm. I have seen it and experienced it repeatedly, online and in real life, among tabletop game societies and various other, even more unlikely hobbies, as I already mentioned.
Lulz at Slay Queen Brie playing with army men.
When I was looking for this picture for the thumbnail, I was shocked that Brie used to be really pretty. A decade or more ago, she could even smile. So weird.
@@attentionspanlabsThere is always a time before a person is broken by their handlers. It's always jarring to see it.
I'm pretty sure the price point and the time and energy required to play it are good enough for gatekeeping. Especially the price point, since only the rich can truly afford it. You can cross out all the other qualifications, like creativity, intelligence, interest, time, or patience. Money is the biggest factor, and it's the only factor that counts. You can have all the other qualities in spades, but if you can't afford the minis after the next price bump, you're SOL. Good luck playing with outdated minis that are probably gonna be at the lower tier of the crunch lists while some new kid who bought all the good and new stuff wipes the floor with you, even though you spent 100 hours painting your own custom army and coming up with a story for them, while he just dipped all his Primaris boys in blue or green paint so that he can have Guilliman or Lion'El Johnson leading them to roll over your guys.
Hell, a rich-enough asshole can just buy used armies that are already painted; or they can commission someone to paint their army for them. Money buys everything in this hobby more so than it does with modern video games that rely on RNG and lootboxes. At least with those games, your skill still counts, since if you encounter someone with the same stuff as you but with better reflexes, they will wipe the floor with you on the battlefield or leave you in the dust while they score all the top awards.
This is true for a certain kind of inferior wargaming, although I admit it is a very popular style of wargaming. But if you go to the conventions that I go to, and play with the sort of people I do, you see a lot of armies that are 20, 30, even 40 years old and lots of stuff done on the cheap. Officially sanctioned tournaments are especially vulnerable to the kind of problems you mention, which is why I avoid them.
thing is, most of these invaders don't really play the game, they came with the influencers that got accepted by more complacent "pillars of the community"
@@kristianvillarosa4655 one thing I notice more and more is how the "pillars" of an institution are usually craven, spineless social climbers totally unconcerned for the welfare of their in-group.
@@attentionspanlabs I see. But at that point, you'd need to be close to where a lot of good conventions are going on, or at least have the means to go there. Not everyone is that lucky.
@@attentionspanlabs Not just that, but many of them are just brown-nosers going for the newest fad. I remember how a lot of the nerd media despised fans of the old Star Wars Expanded Universe because they didn't like the new Disney SW canon. Now that Disney SW canon is petering out thanks to the failures of the Sequels, the Mandalorian, and several SW TV shows, these rags are suddenly willing to explore the SWEU from a noob's perspective.
Never forget what Spoony showed about the nerd media when Ultima 9 released; they were whoring around and sucking up to it despite it being an unplayable, buggy mess that can barely function as a game.
as a person who was barred from joining historical wargaming groups because i was 16, despite having intelligence, time, creativity, and desire to play, i disagree. obviously not everything is for everybody, but that sort of take glosses over the 'it is for the person but others refuse to acknowledge that' bit. since these games require others to agree to play with you it seems like a group presupposing that certain people cannot become part of the group because of some personal bias they hold is really, really stupid.
Maybe the reason other people didn't want to play with you says more about you than it does about them? Considering how often I see grognards bending over backwards to cater to young people, it makes me wonder.
Gaming is a social activity and socialization is a two-way street. No one likes to be rejected, but that's life. And you are not entitled to spend time with people who don't want to spend time with you.
@@attentionspanlabs I was a 16 year old my friend. You do not know me, and I played Malifaux and Warhammer since I was 12 and have friends still from both of those I play with as an adult. Maybe you have an agenda and you'd sooner believe I'm a bad person than consider the cognitive dissonance me not being a bad person makes with your stance.
@@MrFirefox322 There's no cognitive dissonance, you are just unable or more likely unwilling to accept the truth of what I said. It doesn't matter if you were perfectly innocent and it was all their fault. Your complaint is with the two-way nature of social interactions. You don't have to like it, but complaining about it is like complaining that if you stop eating you'll starve to death. It's just reality. There are a couple people that I would give one of my organs to, but whom I do not otherwise enjoy spending time with and would not invite to my game groups.
Nevertheless, I do find your story dubious. You are correct, I don't know you, and therefore have no particular reason to believe your account. You would not be the first person to give a false or tendentious account on the Internet.
The most compassionate advice that I can give to someone who says they were unjustly and inexplicably rejected from a social group is to give serious consideration to the possibility that their rejection was neither inexplicable nor unjust. The problem is that people don't actually want honest and compassionate counsel, they want to be told that they are perfect and everyone else is a dirt bag.
@@attentionspanlabs I would not be the first to lie, but I have no reason to. I understand the internet is full of trolls, but I am providing a true counter-example to the points you put forward. I can add that I did not spend much time with these people and they more "ghosted" me than actually attempted to meet me. I put these forward because, ultimately, you do not know the story and to assume you do puts you in an falsely claimed epistemic superiority; one that was not earned.
I think your response that you mean to be compassionate is just, but it comes across condescending when I have worked several long years through the remnants of an abusive childhood. I am very much at peace with myself and who I am. I, rather, am trying to say that to block people from a space for no discernable reason does not engender any reason in me when, say, I am older and more acceptable to be around for that reason, to attempt to rejoin those groups. The argument is not "let me in" the argument is "needlessly kept out."
I don't long to join the group of hardcore historical wargamers anymore. I play wargames of my own, and enjoy painting and building miniatures.
Again, you have no reason to believe me but I do implore you to. I've not lied to you at all here, and hopefully this respectful response helps validate that fact.
Gatekeeping based on shallow information is pointless and can lead to needless "keeping outs." You offer stoic consideration, I offer you Aristotelean: Age does not indicate much beyond how many years you've seen. Practical wisdom, virtue, can be found in the young and imprudence in the old. To assume otherwise is to assume unjustly.
@@MrFirefox322 Did they hear you talk about falsely claimed epistemic superiority before they ghosted you? After reading that last post I would be reluctant to play games with you, too.
Thank you for putting your opinion out. I don’t agree with your thoughts on the subject of gatekeeping. I do agree that wargaming, as well as other hobbies, books, movies, and other forms of entertainment, aren’t for everyone. But this is an individual’s choice, not yours, mine or anyone else’s. All should be welcomed into the hobby, given the chance to experience it, and make a decision if its for them. As you say, some will try to change things about the hobby; such as modify rules, pick different periods, or change the way they paint things, pick different tournament formats, etc, but this is a feature not a bug. Without various people coming into the hobby with different ideas, and preferences the hobby stagnates and does not move forward. If HG Wells didn’t decide to take Kriegspiel and add toy soldiers we may not have the hobby we have today. Another example is the COIN series of games. That is a very different implementation from the classic war games of the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s. This is why I cannot agree with your argument concerning gatekeeping. We don’t need gatekeepers, we need ambassadors. Never close the door, leave it open and welcome all people inside.
What contributions to the hobby are being made by political activists who are trying to destroy it? In what way are the contributions of H.G. Wells or the evolutionary developments from Little Wars through Chainmail and Braunstein to modern miniature wargames comparable to the subversives who insist that playing historical armies is an act of oppression, that the people who have been wargaming forever are the wrong kind of people, and that the hobby itself should be destroyed? There are none. It is a total disanalogy.
In fact, this is such an egregious bit of sophistry that I don't believe for a minute your argument is sincere.
I completely reject the asinine modernist bromides about all change being positive and all people being worthy of welcome. A half moment's thought reveals the stupidity of the idea, not to mention the hypocrisy of those who advance it, since I am 100% certain you do not welcome all people into your home.
Agree
Dude, it took you 7 minutes to say nothing. What do those forces of evil barbarians that you talk about want to do? What are those harmfull changes? Changing rule sets? For what game? Table etiquette? Painting your minis with speed paints? Using deodorant? Please give examples.
You're pretty angry for claiming to not know what I'm talking about.
I never seen any Warhammer 40k. The best sci fi / table top game around ! Only thing bad with it is its price. Its very expensive.
40k is not even close to the best sci-fi game around.
Why was I recommended this, then why did I watch it? Sure did broaden my mind- interesting cross-section of the ego of the USian gamer. Just play with people who you like. Wargaming isnt political- playing games with people whose opinions don't align with your own is a symptom of living in a society of hundreds of millions. You sounds kind of young so I'd understand if your schedule isn't fully under your control, if you end up playing a lot of pickup games with beginners at your local wargames store, and if you haven't found a group yet. Maybe you're part of wargaming communities online, and you've developed an image of what wargaming "done right" looks like. Try not to hold onto that. There is no right way to enjoy stuff. You're going to find a wargaming club/circle that is right for you, and make friends who are into the game. You hold some pretty extreme opinions on this, can I ask you how long you've been playing for, and what games?
Very nearly everything you said is incorrect, from your dismal comprehension of the video and your childish and tendentious restatement of it to your assessment of my experience in wargaming, which amounts to 30 years and almost never at stores or "pickup games with beginners." Go gamma somewhere else.
@attentionspanlabs What part of my comment is tendentious? What narrative do you think I'm trying to push? Maybe my assumptions about your gaming background were incorrect- the rest is purely my opinion though. My comprehension isn't the problem- I simply cannot see the reason anyone would ever feel the need to write, record and publish a video like this without having been specifically and repeatedly rejected by the wider gaming culture. Your defensive posturing and (get your bingo cards out) pseudointellectual position of "you are wrong and I'm not obliged to do any self-reflection" kind of confirmed my concerns? Also, as someone who attends games clubs, I don't know what "gamma"-ing is.
@@tentimestay9181 Your comprehension is so poor that your patronizing advice to me to "just play with people you like" is merely a dumbed-down restatement of the necessity of gatekeeping. Despite being the entire point of the video, it somehow escaped your notice. Given that extreme cluelessness, I am not all surprised that you "simply cannot see the reason" I made the video, nor am I the slightest bit surprised by your sad attempt to psychologize me based on imaginary trauma.
You are correct about one thing, though: that your smug and inane criticism does not stir me to self-reflection.
@@attentionspanlabs Not criticism. It might sound like it though. I'll watch the video again (you're welcome), bear with me.
(edit)
I want to know who the malicious influencers trying to change the hobby are. If people are gonna take action about this then you have to be more specific. Is it young people? Unpainted armies? 40k fans who like female space marines? 3d printing fans? Tabletop content creators? I am not trying to psychologize you, never trying to talk about trauma, just experience. I was off the mark with my opinion in a TH-cam comment. I still think it was pretty extreme to make some of those comparisons and draw some of those lines. I mean, from the start we have common ground about what the hobby "should" maybe be like, but my hobby experience has never been influenced by any of the threats you hinted at.
Over 5,000 views and scores of comments and you are the only person who doesn't know who I'm talking about, even though I said who I was talking about in the video. Even the other negative commenters perfectly understood who I was talking about. You're welcome to keep commenting and boosting the algorithm, but I'm not interested in helping you play dumb.
I found this a pretty odd rant. Toward the end you acknowledge the diversity (scary word) of who we are as wargamers, but treat wargaming as a united bloc that has to protected from the wrong kind of people. Which is it? Traditional wargaming is a particular multidisciplinary hobby. Inevitably there are going to be people we might not think "suitable" to enjoy "our" hobby. It's because of the inherent barriers (You covered them well enough) that we shoulkdn't have to worry about proactively gatekeeping; The hobby sorts itself. I'm new to your channel. It came up because I searched, "wargaming imagi-nations" (It's nice to see what others are up to). I'm unfamiliar with you, but your commentary suggests a more orthodox historical or modern area of interest. Someone ho gravitates toward 40k primarily might not gel wwith your group even if you begrudgingly acknowledge them, but who is the vandal? There are so many different places beneath the broader wargaming umbrella I think it ould be impossible to dismiss someone as not being wargaming material. That said, and you covered it as well, sometimes free beer wouldn't be enough. People might not be a good fit for our own gaming group or more broadly speaking our particular niche within the broader hobby, but that shouldn't necessitate a call to arms of the gatekeeping society across the internet. Nice looking terrain by the way. Those were some impressive setups in the stills that accompanied your speech.
I spelled it out quite clearly in the video. If you still can't figure out what it means to say that wargaming is a hobby for wargamers and not for activists looking for yet another vector for their ideologies, I can't spoon-feed it to you anymore. Try thinking about it without your ideological blinders on.
I agree the tables are impressive. I mentioned in the description where they come from.
Nuh uh.
Uh.. maybe I'm out of the loop.. but who the hell is saying that "Wargaming is (or SHOULD) be for everyone?" And.. "top surgery"? I fail to see how that is relevant at all. Do you also make videos about how the guy down the street from me says "wargaming sucks"? Just because someone makes a statement.. means absolutely nothing. Don't fall for the bait.
Lots of people say it about everything. That X "is for everyone" is one of the great shibboleths of the age. In fact, the largest miniature games company said exactly that a few years ago in the midst of one of our society-wide struggle sessions. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're just playing dumb.
I'm just playing dumb.. and you're just out for clicks. No one is saying "Wargaming should be made for everyone." Literally no one.
@@mk.ultra9968 Thousands of people have watched this video. There are over 150 comments. You are the first and only one who doesn't know what I'm talking about. Even those who came on here to disagree with me know what I'm talking about.
Maybe it's you.
As he stated the thoughts of others, I assert he is political.
We can be political if we want. If you think there can bo no politics in wargaming, you may lack observational capacity?
Who is "he" in this case?
Nice job being transphobic immediately out the gate, really makes the rest of your points look reasonable!
LOL. Do you regret being so emotionally incontinent that you immediately reject someone's opinion on Subject A because of their opinion on Subject B?
'Transphobic' -- Care to explain what you mean by that? An arachnophobe is afraid of spiders and an agoraphobe is afraid of open spaces, but I'm certainly not afraid of delusional self-mutilators. What is 'reasonable' about the false belief that sex doesn't exist and that the world should conform to someone with objectively false perception of themselves?
Why don't you just say what you mean? Your wordspell has no power here.
Sadly political rant.
And you, as a gamma, just knew everyone needed to see this sadly boring and meaningless comment. I'm sure there's more anodyne content on TH-cam. Avail yourself of it.
@redoubtwithoutdoubt9945 th-cam.com/video/vhTFkUpB8zc/w-d-xo.html
Making everything political is an American problem. If you're not a war, you turn on each other over your two only political parties.
What rosy glasses you have.
Why is a female in the thumbnail?
It's Brie Larson giving her famous "it's not for you" lecture.
Or you could not just play with them but yes TT games are for everyone juswt like video games, Movies, Books and music it's just a medium and keeping the industry small is just stupid as you will have less money to make better games... Which if you worried that vido games will add extrtessarals to battletech you reall have no idea how game design works.
No, Marxist scum ruin absolutely everything. TT War gaming isn't for them, just the wall. You are welcome to join them there.
Spoken like a perfect consoomerist NPC.
@@attentionspanlabs Answered like a perfect gamer-bro, incel and crypto-fascist. The only thing you seem to bang regularly are your bacon-fists on the table when someone beats you at a game.
Pls touch some grass and get therapy.
Otto, every word that passes your mutant lips is projection. We all know it; we've seen it before. The perpetuation of my bloodline is secured for at least another generation, while your soy-shrivelled hands have never touched a born woman. Your line will pass into extinction with you, and all of your unopened, unpainted, and unplayed miniatures will be sold for discount on eBay by your fourth cousin inheritors.
Every single word you just wrote...is the opposite of what makes a community blossom.
Gatekeeping is idiotic and the sad wee examples of humanity you see doing it online are doubly so. You guys spend a bizarre amount of your online time devoted to impotently mewling into the void about a problem that exists only in your heads.
You spend a bizarre amount of your online time abusing your genitals.
Unfortunate I can't enjoy this channel anymore
That's funny, I don't recall you ever saying you enjoyed this channel, since this is your first and only comment on it. And I posted this video months ago, so I doubt you're a regular watcher. Pray tell, what videos did you enjoy previously?
I agree with the general sentiment and all, but also it's just a hobby not some righteous crusade destined by God for only the lions of our era, try not to sniff your own farts too hard!
Well done, cool disaffected kid, well done.
Nobody gets higher on their own flatulence than the disaffected poseurs who think they are "too far above all this petty stuff". Nothing is so terminally uncool than taking anything seriously. The exact right emphasis is always that which you give something, which is always nothing.
Cope
What games do you play and how long have you played them?
@@attentionspanlabs Ive been playing for nearly ten years.
I used to play 40k but nowadays i mostly play Skirmish scale.
You checking for base credentials like this tells me all i need to know about you.
@@OrmylLP Inane comments, years of only playing 40k, and rejecting "base credentials" told me all I needed to know about you.
@@attentionspanlabs Really mature "No U" strategy. Enjoy your free comment engagement.
Never contact me again.
@@OrmylLP comes on my channel, makes a stupid comment, then says: "Never contact me again."
LOL! Who could have guessed?