Aside from the detailed gear reviews and historical background infos, the mixed weapons sparring is my favourite type of content. It really helps to get a rough idea about how those specific training blades perform in action. Very useful for making decions about what blades to buy next. The only thing I'd love to see in addition to what's already being shared is some close up shots of the blade edges after they've seen a fair bit of use so we can get a sense of the durability and price-performance ratio.
Glad you are enjoying it. Long term equipment reviews is something we will be working on a lot in the coming weeks, I'll try and get some close up shots in to these.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Guessing Thokks since many of your members seem to use them…? I have to assume the QC issues and weak backplate were overblown by the community, but I’d love to hear your take on all that.
We have almost 30 pairs of the Thokk gloves in our clubs and some of us are 300-400 sparring bouts into using them. The backplate issue was fixed very early on, just before our order shipped, and so we have the new version which hasn't broken any. QC has been excellent and they are by far the best five finger HEMA gloves we have ever seen. Full review coming soon
seems to me that without gauntlets, the Katana wielder's hands would quickly become mincemeat. Going back and watching it several times, he took a lot of cuts to the hand and forearm, especially when the action got heated.
Katanas were more an ornamental sword than a fencing one. The tsuba is a poor excuse for a handguard because unlike with sabers, the idea was that the katana is a weapon of last resort, so if you're forced to use it, you're probably going against spears, halberds or heavy blades, in which case a handguard wouldn' make much of a difference. It's the same reason you're not gonna put a handguard on a knife. Sabers on the other hand were very practical swords, so much so that they were adopted as swords of choice by many countries up to WW2. If you run out of lances (hussars usually carried up to 3 and could resupply during the fallback manouvers), then you just switch to your saber and are still going to do serious damage. The blade is heavy enough to be able to cleave and bludgeon light armor but well balanced and agile enough for one handing. So basically weapon that expects to be used - handguard, Weapon that's a last resort - no handguard.
@@mrsmartypants4541 Not ornamental, unobtrusive which is in line with many cavalry swords like the Cossack sabers and Chinese sabers used in similar periods. They all lack handguards or large crossguards because often the rider is armored. The samurai was firing his bow a majority of the time from horseback, then engaging with his lance or naginata on the battlefield. Meanwhile later European sabers are being used during the era of pike and shot by dedicated cavalry both light and heavy who are being ordered to attack at specific gaps or moments in the battle. In that case their sabers are generally their primary weapons so the handguards make sense. They aren't juggling a huge bow or they've discarded their lances.
Even sabre wielder arms will also be detached real quick if there were no gauntlet, it doesn't only apply to katana, it is always European soldiers who wear gauntlet, or else they will be handicapped real quick
@@Peaches-i2i Also, many Iron Age swords had quite negligible or non-existent guards, though that was probably more due to those big shields, and the spear being the main weapon.
I find it especially interesting how in the majority of saber fencing, the medium guard is not recommended because of how vulnerable it is…yet, katana wielders’ standard guard is basically the medium guard. I was expecting the saber fencer to exploit this, but I didn’t really see it being utilized.
The medium guard is used so much for katana because of the two handed grip, is suits it most in terms of body mechanics, but it is more than that. The two handed grip's advantage is in it's leverage, allowing extremely fast twtich responses. This makes it very dangerous for the sabre to go near that area as it is where the sabre will mostly likely get bound up. This is the same in rapier vs longsword for example. It's also a little hard for the type of sabre used here to exploit that way due to its immsense forward mass, it just can't do those quick snipes at a guard position very well at all.
Speaking from a ranked Japanese Sword Fighting & HEMA background, that was probably one of the best performances of katana steel sparring I’ve seen from a fighter that seems predominantly HEMA trained; my compliments! Really working the Katana to its key strengths here; fighting primarily from center guard, really well executed counter-cuts to stay defended, brilliantly using various deflecting parries that *do feature* in many Japanese sword styles, and the footwork was not that bad. It seems from this fight alone like *there’s some formal Japanese sword style training going on*, if that intuition’s correct definitely keep it up!
The grapple seemed interesting but risky. The katana user got what looked like a stab to the collarbone of the saber user but received a slash at the waist level,a killing blow for a probably non lethal injury but still seems risky. Mind sharing any thoughts on grappling in katana combat?
@@elchjol2777 under normal circumstances, the katana would've been dropped and a wakizashi if not a tanto would've been drawn. The blade is shorter, faster, easier to get into the opponent's circle of defense when at bad breath distances like that and it would've left his offhand free to grab the wrist of his opponent to prevent that cut to the abdomen he received. And I wouldn't discount the lethality of that abdomen wound-in the days of dueling, before fencers started disinfecting their blades before settling the matter of transgression, a 2" deep cut was said to be a death sentence. It would've been weeks (if not a month) of sepsis, agony and a putrid wound before blood poisoning finally did you in!
Shame you can't say the same about their use of sabers, which is even more sad when you consider this isn't a Japanese martial arts club but a hema club. If they wanted to show the saber properly the guy with the saber should also be using either a dagger or buckler in his off hand. Then you'd really see how effective sabers are. As is though they're just putting out misinformation cause this isn't what a duel between a saber user and a katana user would look like.
I want to root against the katana, but most users seem to be very good and they seem to get the upper hand at close range. From a distance they seem to be able to defend but not attack, but their dowers look sturdier, the less flex seems to be a defensive advantage I'd still choose the saber due to the reach and the nimbleness available. But katana are looking more and more formidable to me
Honestly, I'd say the Katana is definitely more nimble. This sabre is not that lighter compared to the Katana, and has a lot of authority in the cut. This is a cavalry sabre after all, and it doesn't have that much of point control. I don't know which sabres you are experienced with, but this one is a beast to wield and doesn't favor minimalist movements.
A man named Nick with a katana fighting in Landsknecht pluderhosen brings a smile to my face as does his use of said sword. THAT is how you take an enemy's blade with a katana. No "edge to edge" nonsense. I even saw a couple of very nice ippon! Our friend with the saber should've used the hanging guard more. He did very well with it. Such a clean bout by two polished swordsmen. The grapples reminded me why, historically, swordsmen wore daggers. Getting that katana behind Rick's collarbone proved a chore. Better to drop your sword and draw your tanto!
Yeah but it's a very flawed fight, I mean why is the saber user not also equipped with either a buckler or dagger? This isn't going to do much to show what a katana can do against a saber user if you're not going let the saber user use the saber to its full advantage.
@@Master...deBaterExactly you are supposed to only use the sword arm side of your body to extend your range increasing your defense and offense simultaneously. That's why the Sabre is the better weapon of choice in my opinion
The saber seems to have a longer reach because it is wielded with one hand and half a body. The katana seems to have more power and control because it is held with both hands. It is a win-win situation. There is an old saying in Japanese swordsmanship that "it takes three times the skill of a spearman to counter a sword with a spear," but a katana will have a hard time against a sword like an epee or a rapier that strikes at once after a short pause.
In the early days of exploration-mid to late 1540s-Portuguese merchant marines would dock in Yokohama harbor to trade wares. Because these were sailors and were in a foreign place they didn't really understand they'd get drunk and start fights. The so-called "black carracks" sword was very popular in Portugal at the time. It soon became apparent that the katana was taught in such a way that it was only good at fighting against other katana. The samurai adapted-toppeigoshirae were invented, kissaki moroha zukuri style blades became popular again-they were absorbing what was useful from seeing these Portuguese merchant marines with their transitional rapiers. The tables turned and, after prolly more than a few sailors got killed for acting a fool, it was ordered the swords stay on the ship when on shore leave. Eventually Japan closed its ports to foreginers, anyway, though. The next time samurai faced foreign swordsmen-when Hideyoshi decided to invade Mainland China and the Korean peninsula in the 1590s-the samurai ran into a different problem altogether. The Korean swordsmen were terrified and no match but Chinese soldiers had lots of guns!
@@nickaschenbecker9882Source for any of this? I find the claim about the Japanese having a hard time due to ming guns strange, since a big problem (at least for the koreans) was that the japanese were the ones who had a lot of guns.
@@atom8248 John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
@atom8248 I dunno about China, but Korea was definitely a cannon superpower pre-17th century. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_cannon I think you're right about the "guns" though, hand firearms were much more common in Japan, though it's debated how effective that was during the Imjin War.
Kinda wanna see samurai and Japanese army sword fight during the Meiji period of japan like in last samurai with Tom cruise or like with live action movie of ruronin kenshin. We need more stuff like this. It cool to see mix ups like this
Traditional katana vs a kyu-gunto and longsword or katana vs tachi. Or Musashi's two handed sword work vs his one handed sword, or his one handed sword adapted to a dedicated one handed blade.
I've been doing various martial arts from mma and kickboxing to goju ryu and xing yi quan. And these are two of the best swordsman I've seen in my life. As far as applicable combat is concerned they are both absolutely flawless.
0:28--0:38 is probably the most realistic sword exchange ever. One guy starts pushing and closing the distance, and before you know it two guys are grappling at each other, one stabbing the back whilst the other is sawing the leg like cutting a steak
Is it just me, or are the effective ranges really fascinating in this bout? It looks to me like the sabre has an advantage at both long and short range (by attacking with the rear hand) but that the katana has a lot of ability to dominate in the middle range.
2 handed swords sacrifice reach and range of motion for strength and fast twitch response. If you could see in the video the sabre guy is following through his motions because it’s difficult to stop his sword and he needs the momentum to strike a 2 handed guard, whereas the katana guy is waiting for him to attack first before counter attacking his slow recovery.
@@veritas4887 John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
They were often carried together yes, though typically used seperately, especially as the pistol of this sabre era was single shot. The sword was the primary weapon of both officers and cavalrymen in the era of this sword.
I think this is an interesting phenomenon that occurs whenever one and two handed swords are put up against each other. The katana is so much more stable during blocks or parries and much harder to push off line during attacks. That being said, that two handed grip requires that the shoulders are much more squared to the target which changes footwork. The saber remaining largely perpendicular to its target would have definite advantages in their backwards/forwards movement and maximum range. I would be interested how a heavier saber(like one of the Ottoman's or Turkish ones) would perform in this match up. A heavier blade might disrupt the katanas advantage on stability while maintaining the greater mobility and range that a one-handed grip affords.
It feels like the stances for the saber really give it a wide range of angles to defend against, but it seems to struggle with recovering from them because its wide, sweeping movements are so telegraphed and dependent on one hand. At least 3 different times in these bouts the katana landed second intention blows that were just too fast for the saber to react to.
I (Nick) don't have one. I did practice kendo for a while a long time, but really what I am doing here is regularly pouring over old kenjutsu demonstration videos, pulling anything I can find that is interesting and incorporate the techniques. With an experienced framework in lots of European styles that works just fine. I am always working to make my katana work more authentic in form whenever I can spare the time.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing As a kenjutsu practitioner I found the arms much too extended. Most moves in the styles I am fluent in (Komagawa Kaishin-ryû, Tenshin-shoden-katori-shintô-ryû and Ogawa-ryû) have the arms much closer to the body except when striking. That makes it harder for a lunge-style weapon to score a kote (wrist) hit and easier to do a sliding parry with the katana. Nonetheless I found this video very edifying, and found a few points to ponder in my own training. Thank you for posting this!
@@LeSerpentBlanc Thanks for this! I came to comment the same. I trained in Bunjinkan (lower stance than most kenjutsu, but similar) and noticed the same things. Using a basic guard with the blade extending outward is asking for trouble. I prefer a high guard, but that comes from my height!
@@LOL_Church I prefer a straight stance with gedan low guard, because I'm still not over my amazement of how quickly you can whip up the blade into a sliding parry or block from that position. Might have to do with my height of 1.85 m, though. I agree that staying in chûdan (and a high extended Langer Ort-flavoured chûdan, at that) is asking for trouble. The fencer in the video is good enough to overcome the limitations of that position, though. I wouldn't be able to pull that off.
Shinden-Mugai-ryu guy here. Yeah most kenjutsu forms I've seen typically keep the arms closer to the body. It also helps keep the opponent from knowing your exact range. Something that I am struggling with in my current italian bolognese studies.
The two handed grip comes with advantages and disadvantages. Primarily that the two hand grip leverage makes it very quick to accelerate and decelerate, but it comes at the cost of dexterity and reach. A classic min/max kind of scenario.
@@martinhg98 That's debatable, actually. Japanese were much shorter on average around the sengoku jidai and into the Edo jidai than Europeans were during the Middle Ages through Renaissance into the Thirty Years War. Today, Japanese men average about 1.70 m, and they are having a hard time finding guys who still fit into historical suits of armour; most of the museum pieces shown at jidai matsuri are now worn by very petite women of 1.50 m or less. If a katana of 70 cm nagasa (blade length) is the correct length for an 1.50 person that means that a person of 1.85 m height would need a katana of 86.5-ish length. Overall length would go up from 1 m to 1.25 or thereabouts if the hilt goes up in size as well (which is debatable depending on the style). We're definitely getting closer to longsword range there.
@@martinhg98Not at all true, before the edo period katana were often about the size of european longswords. Edo period laws forced everyone to have their swords shortened. At the end of the edo period long swords come back briefly as straight kinno-to in the hands of samurai loyal to the emperor.
I've been learning a lot about Sabres and really, the fight seems well balanced. Though he would've avoided three or four killing blows using the hanging guard. I've never seen a Sabre held this way, it doesn't guard the exterior properly and his legs are very far apart, not giving much room for use of attacks. Incredible fight!!
With how fast a one handed saber can swing I would think the best move for a katana user to use is to go for his own attack when the saber user swings so that he is forced to either back up or guard or they both get hit or doesn’t hit first. Saying this after the saber user attempts a swing and the katana weilder is either out of reach or he manages to block the initial swing.
Few lessons I had with sabre and swords 15+ years ago teacher told me rule is to be mobile and change angles keep distance he was teaching us defensive reaction stance letting opponent engage first moving backwards reading and aiming for hands and grip. He always kept moving his sword never stood in one place.
Those strategies vary immensely both on what style and culture you are looking at, but also situationally and tactically within a style. There are styles that encourage constant movement, like the Spanish destreza fencing for example, and yet there are contemporary Italian sources that recommend a very static stance and only to move when going to attack or parry. There are strengths and weaknesses to each. Same as maintaining distance to strike the hands, it is a legitmate approach that exists in many styles, but there are also at times huge advantages in closing distance. This is a very broad subject where you will find an extremely broad set of approahces in a single style, let alone comparing many.
Don't think the katana is so inferior than saber. I also prefer the saber but in the end in a 1vs1 duel of swordsmen, the most skilled will end up winning, the saber has advantages but it also has disadvantages compared to a sword that is used with two hands like the Katana. For example: The katana weighs the same as many sabers, some are lighter than Katana, but the saber used in the video weighs the same as that katana and the katana when wielded with both hands allows you to make cuts at greater speed and with more force, but loses range because the saber user can take advantage of the entire extension of his arm to execute a thrust.
i like this comparison alot better than samurai vs knight, considering that samurai vs knight is so anachronistic. This pairing is 100% certain to have happened many times in history.
Lo dije muchas veces, en un duelo como este con dos espadas distintias, cada una con ventajas y desventajas, va a ganar el espadachin mas habilidoso. Al ambas armas tener ventajas y desventajas contra la otra, va a ganar el que sepa aprovechar mejor su arma. Aunque si me preguntas a mi, la mejor espada en una situacion de 1vs1 sin armadura es la espada ropera.
My thought is, being more of a knife guy, its probably similar to the debate we have over our blade shapes. One guy will argue a fairbarn-sykes is the best knife for fighting, another will tell you its a bowie. The former will argue that his knife would have been in and out of you six times before the bowie was even drawn, and the latter will argue that his knife would have removed the arm entirely before that could happen. At the end of the day theyre just different tools designed to do different things, and specializing in the one that suits your needs is going to make you far more effective than if you choose the "best sword all around". Though, i dont sword fight. I can only put this in the context of much shorter blades.
For handling and looks, Black Fencer, for durability, Sigi. We have both and much prefer to use the Black Fencer, but the sigi has much thicker edges, and so takes less edge damage and the grip lasts longer (being simple cord rather than the traditional method). I'd rather put up with a little less durability for a much nicer handling sword personally, but others prefer thicker and tougher edges.
In 1543, Japan already had firearms, and samurai also had bows. A fully armed samurai had at least three bladed weapons and two types of ranged weapons."
For distance one hand is better, but for power two hand is better. Every style have advantages and disadvantages. So usually I always alternate using one hand and two hands continuously.
I am leading a volunteer sport sabre club in the US. Since I can't change the rules of sport fencing what could I change about the training to bring it more in line with what fencing is? The club's theme is identifying historical systems within the sport. The first thing to change is mentality. Some may scoff at this but I think there is something here worth exploring. Can history establish a "meta" in the modern game?
That's a tough one. Sport sabre has developed to an incredibly high level of skill within its ruleset and in terms of athleticism. If you wanted to take something from the history of sabre I would say it's focus in defensive distance work. Chasing the scoring point is a problem we encoutner all the time in HEMA, and is of course the object of a point scoring system, but the absolutely most important aspect of it as a weapon should be defence. This is also complicated further by the lack of below the waist target in sport sabre which does encourage a lot more distance covered. If sport sabre could take anything from military sabre I would say it;s defensive qualities to use as training games and exercises. The maintaining of distance, the leg slips, not taking too big a risk consideirng what might land on you in riposte or double. It's a tough one though, as the target zones, purpose, training tools and ground fought on change so many factors make the difference between the two huge. I have been meaning to work more with sport sabres in a HEMA enviroment as a test of how useful they could be or not, as I have not used them in a long time. I'll make a load of videos on this in the coming months and that might be useful too.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Thanks! I would be happy to provide input on this subject if you like. It is a huge difference but I think where historical concepts can appear are in second intention attacks and distance traps to control the tempo of the game in favor of more practical techniques (even moulinets from hanging guards if watched closely). I competed in modern tournaments but I favor books on the subject up to the year 1950.
I can say if those were a hussar vs a samurai I can say a hussar will win because if they're using the 1796 light cavalry sabre the katana block would be easily break delivering a death blow
Not knowing much about it, it appeared that the handguard on the saber was a definite advantage. I saw a couple of times the blade slide down and hit the hand of the Katana swordsman. I have noticed that the European swords are a bit better designed I guess because the Japanese had to fight each other the Chinese and maybe the Mongols. The Europeans had to fight everybody.
Samurai guy's footwork is all straight line fencer, when a Samurai would have used his pivot to create attack angles in his advance. The Samurai practiced defense, not retreat. If the Samurai guy is gonna spar by the rules of fencing, then he has to Repost, and respond to every strike with a block/parry strike.
Keep in mind average Japanese height for men in samurai days hovered just over 5 feet. So not "short" for them. Interesting dynamic to ponder the difference in reach if he had a blade length comparable to his height.
Indeed the Japanese were on average short, but if we look at a typical chart for calculating your ideal blade length - 5 ft 7 in - 5 ft 9 in 2.45 shaku 29 inch 5 ft 9 in - 5 ft 11 in 2.50 shaku 30 inch I (Nick), am 5'7", and would therefore typically use a blade around 29 inch. The sword I am using in this video has a 30" blade, and so is therefore in the typical range for the next height category up. Whereas in Europe I'd expect to use a blade of 34-40" at my height with a two handed sword. Katanas were indeed very short, even in scale to their users. It was a preference of the styles/traditions.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing It's worth noting that other Japanese sword types could be much larger. Japanese soldiers/pirates/bandits were famous for using big two-handed swords in 16th/17th-century China. Even the smaller sidearm version of the Japanese-style swords Cheng Zongyou wrote about was 119cm of total length, which is close to many European longswords.
The forte would usually be blunt on these. The middle would be sharp. The nature of this fight does bring some actions very close, the shots landed with the middle of the blade came with a powerful swing and would still have been effective. I think the only shot delivered with the forre was followed up with a drawing action, making it into an effective strike.
I don't know much about sword-fighting so excuse my ignorance, but it looks like the guy with the katana was just faster and it really just came down to skill in the end.
As the katana user here I have signficiantly more experience than the other as I am his instructor with decades more experience. However, he is still a competent fencer and you can see he gets some good blows in and causes me lots of problems. Skill is the overall most important factor, but certain weapons do have advantages and disadvantages in different scenarios which can be enough to balance the odds or tip them in ones favour even with a skill disparity. In terms of speed, the katana is a much faster weapon to accelerate and decelerate due to it's two handed grip and the fact that it is roughly the same weight as the sabre here. Also the sabre in use is a front weighted cavalry sabre. But the sabres speed and agility comes in it';s rotations and agility at the wrist.
... does the fencer holding the katana have a background in Kendo? Because his technique seems "15-ish century longsword" to me. 🤔Nothing wrong with that, just wondering. Also - I don't quite remember who it was, but I think someone from the Community of the Sword (I THINK it was Skallagrim, but not sure) once did a comparison between Kendo and Longsword, finding that they have a LOT in common, so literally nothing wrong with applying (most of) those techniques.
2:25 Solid aikijujutsu style grappling to slice at the neck. Not textbook clean, but well executed given the real time scenario, especially if they're below 2nd dan in their kenjutsu style. That said, 4:14 is literally textbook clean; perfect execution of the the cut. Really too bad it doubled. The next two exchanges are beautiful, too, though. Both of these swordsmen are excellent practitioners. 3:26 is a good example of why the longsword's crossguard is nice to have, though, which is why I now prefer kriegsmesser to katana.
It's not quite so simple with the speed and strength comparison. When it comes to strength the 1796 light cavalry sabre is well known as one of the most brutal cutters in history, easily taking limbs and heads off, much like the katana. In speed its not a direct comparison as they work differently. The two haned grip of the katana gives more leverage in the hands and that means faster acceleration and deceleration, so quick to start and stop. But rhe sabre in it's greater dexterity of grip, by both being single handed and completely uninhibited by extra grip and the body mechanics of two handed usage, is faster at many rotational followup cuts and rapid extreme changes in cutting angles. These circular motions also generate tremendous power. Going back to strength, the katana does have a leverage advantage in the bind, but this is counter by the rapid changes in cutting angles mentioned previously. So it is not at all a simple comparison. Neither sword has a complete speed or strength advantage, but are stronger and faster at different things.
sabre win as its monility and more mobolity move but it dont have big sharpness and hard that help them block attacks from different heavy waepons. katana win as its sharpness and medium mobility also it can almost block all kind of heavy weapon except kanabo and something really heavy it cons is just slower and heavier so you can't use it with one have so you have more mobilty
As someone with zero experience in sword fighting, it seems the katana has an advantage here. At first, you'd think the sabre would because of the reach and that's normally a huge factor but because of the katanas 2 handed nature, it seems to have a significant speed advantage along with being able to generate more power with less space and having much better control once the blades clash. A sabre is better in the cut so swinging into the katana is leaning into your strength but the cuts are slower and because it's one have, the katana has a much easier time closing the distance and getting hits in. Something that fairs better in the thrust, such as a rapier, would be a much better counter to the katana if we're talking one handed weapons. All and all, the katana is a great civilian dueling weapon which is essentially what it was relegated to in the edo period.
@@alfrede.neuman9082I'm pointing out an advantage. I was expecting the sabre would dominate but i wasn't expecting some advantages that the katana does have. It doesn't mean it wins.
@@AstroRayGun Speaking as someone who both regularly spars with swords AND also owns and collects antique examples of both nihonto and sabres, I can personally tell you that IMO, Katana/gunto/nihonto are GROSSLY overrated. They’re extraordinarily heavy, usually very short, have no hand protection, have very poor grips, and are no sharper than a typical sabre. And that’s from someone who currently owns around 7-8 very nice antique examples, and has owned several others. They’re pretty and interesting historically (hence why I have them), but they’re objectively crap weapons. Of the dozens of antique swords I’ve collected over the years, my Japanese stuff would be the LAST to be picked if I actually needed to go pick a fight with someone. They’re stupidly mythologised by anime fanboys who think they’re handcrafted by the gods themselves, and who have no idea that they’re actually fairly shit weapons because they’ve never actually handled one, or if they have, they’ve never handled something better. They only make any sense in the VERY specific context of Japanese combat - Which itself was devoid of ANY input or influence by outside factors or cultures for centuries. QED, the sabre won (which it did) because it’s a VASTLY more useable weapon than the katana, and is a better weapon in every practical sense.
Wouldn't the saber fencer profit from equipping a buckler or parrying dagger to his off hand? I don't know if that would be a historically valid scenario, but then I would love to see maxed out specs for each of them. The katana fencer swapping that one for an odachi for longer reach in warfare and the saber guy getting shield or coat for his second hand.
Yes it would be an advantage, so long as the user had the ability/knowledge to use it well and not compromise their sabre work. In these fights we typically go for realistic and likely scenarios, and the military sabre of the 18th and 19th century was almost never used with anything in the offhand. There are however always a few exceptions and we do use sabres with offhand weapons sometimes.
You know, the second the right dude get his hand on the kodachi the fight became one sided. That too much range (almost twice) for the saber to close gap, mean while the other guy can just keep kiting out of range. I'm not bias or anything, but it's just that longer weapon give an insane advantage though out history
When real sword fights were happening I would not be surprised if there were a lot of fights where both guys ended up bleeding to death. With both people skilled I don't see any way that either person is not getting out of this without a bunch of serious cuts. Especially if they were not wearing armor.
@@BarsusDraco If you want realism, you should know that only some duels were to the death, many duels are to first blood. I mean, the first one to bleed lost, and there are other duels until one can no longer continue. although of course I'm talking about arranged duels, not duels that take place in the middle of a battlefield.
1v2 hand grips what makes them fundamentally different, it completely changes the mechanics of the weapon, which is why single and double handed weapons were typically divided and taught separately, even within the same school ith shared principles. It makes for a vast difference between the two.
Yes, although the two handed grip offers more than just the ability to wield a longer blade. Leverage is the key, and the two handed allows rapid acceleration and deceleration, as well as a very strong bind. So that is what the katana gains here, at the expense of dexterity, which is the greatest strength of the sabre.
I know nothing about sword fight but looking on the video I feel like katana is better for explosive attack while sabre is more flexible and better for defense
The important thing to take from this video presentation is that the katana wielder in the video is not trained in its use. The last time Nick mentioned it, he said it was a comparison of two different weapons, not two different styles of swordsmanship. So the attempt here is one of a western fencer trying to use a katana as if it were any other type of western sword.
Problem with guys using katanas ism they almost always learn a lot about how to defend but almost none about how to attack, most modern sshools have taken those parts from their curriculum. You can visibly see the guy there doesnt know how to attack.. at all.
It's more to do with the weapon being faced. Most people expect a weapon style to remain the same when moving from a matched weapon fight to a mixed one, but the reality is changes are often essential. Try facing a sabre with a katana and you will see exactly the problem, the sabre can interupt timings with an incredible dexterity and range of angles
As was a common practice, thinking all swords with lower levels of hand protection were always used in protracted postitions is an artefact of viewing through later and more complex hilted systems. Take the cavalry sabre shown for example, it was taught used extended forward guards exclusively for both cavalry and infantry use. Japanese styles used a broad mix of guards, but often used extended forward guards heavily, and in the situation of this video, they are one of the best options.
Because it is very risky to do against the sabre. You don't gain a huge amount of reach and it will still be less than the sabre (76cm blade vs 83cm). As soon as you go one handed with the katana it becomes basically a bad sabre, very short, it can be beaten through, it doesn't have the hand protection and the grip is awkward for one handed work. I might include some attempts at it to the hand another time, but the risk is very high, and if you get it wrong, that cavalry sabre's striking power is immense.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing I have noticed that extending the strike so it starts two handed, releases with the back hand holding (gaining another 10 cm..) and follwing the strike back to two handed is really a great move to gain ground against a retreating opponent, and as a first "lounge" into a fast short range two handed exchange
Indeed we use such a move with longswords, but then they have much longer grips and also aren;t as such a reach disadvantage in blade also. It's certainly somethingt that can work, but I'd still be very careful with it, especially as I know my opponent here lvoes timed hits, which is something I am very careful to avoid in this fight.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing agree on not using one hand. But the arms of your standard guard looks way too extended to be kenjutsu, looks more like kendo (which is more sport than martial art)
Indeed, unlike Sabre user utilized in balancing and flexibility, Japanese swords user in reality utilized in strength a lot. They’d try to cut you with your weapon if you try to block their strike other than deflecting their strike. If it was a real katana user, he would try to first land a hard weapon contact to knock the sabre out of the hand or out balanced, then land a cut to the wide open body.
Likely because you have been watching kendo videos. Kendo is to Japanese swordsmanship what Olympic fencing is to western swordsmanship. That isn't to disparage either Kendo or sport fencing, but they have very different goals, rules and training tools. Go and watch some Kenjutsu practitioners fighting with full weight steel training katanas and you will find it a world apart from Kendo.
Странно, я думал что боец с катаной одержит убедительную победу, ибо двуручный хват при сравнимой массе оружия - большое преимущество. Но фактически, бой выглядел так, будто у боеца с катаной сильно затруднен обзор - наносить точные удары с большой дистанции у него не особо получалось.
If you liked katana fighter then imagine if he was really trained in it 2:22 tells me he wasn't cause he makes the most basic mistake with his footwork which is a fundament in kendo. The power and range of the footwork comes from the backfoot not the frontfoot. A lot of his attempts could be succesfull if he actually knew how to move properly.
I don't get it. Something is missing here. Kendo's fights look completely different. They not that slow. I don't get it why this fight looks so different than kendo fight (watching katana user). In Kendo they use rules, tactics, moves like there were fighting katanas. So why moves of this katana's figher look nothing like in Kendo?
Kendo is a relatively modern sport with very restrictive rules. It is also practiced with shinai, which are extremely light and handle nothing ;ike the original swords. In this regard it is a lot like comparing modern foil and epee sport fencing to rapier and smallsword. Here a steel training sword of accurate weight and handling is used, and without sport rules. Kendo is really very far removed from historical Japanese swordsmanship. If you want a better idea of how Japanese swordsmanship looked then I suggest you check out kenjutsu, of which techniques are drawn upon in this video, though not in solation, as we are predominately a school of European swordsmanship. Lastly, this is a mixed weapon fight, and anyone who has fought against a wide range of weapons will know that a fighter must adapt to the opponent's weapon, and so it will look different to a matched weapon fight.
The kendo kata are probably a better representation of how Edo period japanese swords were used in fights. Here are some Shinkage-ryu guys fighting sundome (non contact) th-cam.com/video/5ALy3lhrgAQ/w-d-xo.html
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing A shinai is the same mass as a typical white oak bokuto (500g-700g). There are some exceptional cases like Niten Ichi Ryu which use spatula thin (360g) bokuto since they believe it improves cutting mechanics, or Tennen Rishin Ryu which uses a very heavy one (1800g) for building strength, but these are the exceptions.
Only one comment: katana was usually adjusted to the height of the swordsman. We are usually usung a default lenght that was used mostly by Japanese fencers that rose to 1,6m most. If someone is 1,8m or 2m, lenght of the blade should be adequately bigger. It makes katana prett much a Japanese longsword. Very nice duel btw. I wonder how oder budo would do, as I see Kendo here.
Glad you are enjoying it. Though there is no kendo here, this is a mix of some Kenjutsu being added to existing HEMA experience. About the sword length, though that is true, the training katana used here isn't particularly small. If we look at a typical scale chart for katana - 5 ft 7 in - 5 ft 9 in 2.45 shaku 29 inch 5 ft 9 in - 5 ft 11 in 2.50 shaku 30 inch The user in this video is 5'7 and the katana has a 30" blade, and so the sword in this video is a tad long compared to the user. So the katana is close to the extremely small bast**d swords or hand and a half swords, though quite far apart from many of the more typical longswords. This is reflected in the way they are worn too. The katana relaly is a remarkably small sword for one with a two handed grip, even in scale to their user. Not to say the Japanese didn't have larger sword types of course.
Aside from the detailed gear reviews and historical background infos, the mixed weapons sparring is my favourite type of content. It really helps to get a rough idea about how those specific training blades perform in action. Very useful for making decions about what blades to buy next. The only thing I'd love to see in addition to what's already being shared is some close up shots of the blade edges after they've seen a fair bit of use so we can get a sense of the durability and price-performance ratio.
Glad you are enjoying it. Long term equipment reviews is something we will be working on a lot in the coming weeks, I'll try and get some close up shots in to these.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Guessing Thokks since many of your members seem to use them…? I have to assume the QC issues and weak backplate were overblown by the community, but I’d love to hear your take on all that.
We have almost 30 pairs of the Thokk gloves in our clubs and some of us are 300-400 sparring bouts into using them. The backplate issue was fixed very early on, just before our order shipped, and so we have the new version which hasn't broken any. QC has been excellent and they are by far the best five finger HEMA gloves we have ever seen. Full review coming soon
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing that’s great to hear! I look forward to the review :)
I love mixed weapon training being on either side of being over powered or making best with what you have.
seems to me that without gauntlets, the Katana wielder's hands would quickly become mincemeat. Going back and watching it several times, he took a lot of cuts to the hand and forearm, especially when the action got heated.
Katanas were more an ornamental sword than a fencing one. The tsuba is a poor excuse for a handguard because unlike with sabers, the idea was that the katana is a weapon of last resort, so if you're forced to use it, you're probably going against spears, halberds or heavy blades, in which case a handguard wouldn' make much of a difference. It's the same reason you're not gonna put a handguard on a knife. Sabers on the other hand were very practical swords, so much so that they were adopted as swords of choice by many countries up to WW2. If you run out of lances (hussars usually carried up to 3 and could resupply during the fallback manouvers), then you just switch to your saber and are still going to do serious damage. The blade is heavy enough to be able to cleave and bludgeon light armor but well balanced and agile enough for one handing.
So basically weapon that expects to be used - handguard,
Weapon that's a last resort - no handguard.
@@mrsmartypants4541 Not ornamental, unobtrusive which is in line with many cavalry swords like the Cossack sabers and Chinese sabers used in similar periods. They all lack handguards or large crossguards because often the rider is armored. The samurai was firing his bow a majority of the time from horseback, then engaging with his lance or naginata on the battlefield. Meanwhile later European sabers are being used during the era of pike and shot by dedicated cavalry both light and heavy who are being ordered to attack at specific gaps or moments in the battle. In that case their sabers are generally their primary weapons so the handguards make sense. They aren't juggling a huge bow or they've discarded their lances.
Even sabre wielder arms will also be detached real quick if there were no gauntlet, it doesn't only apply to katana, it is always European soldiers who wear gauntlet, or else they will be handicapped real quick
@@Peaches-i2i Also, many Iron Age swords had quite negligible or non-existent guards, though that was probably more due to those big shields, and the spear being the main weapon.
I find it especially interesting how in the majority of saber fencing, the medium guard is not recommended because of how vulnerable it is…yet, katana wielders’ standard guard is basically the medium guard. I was expecting the saber fencer to exploit this, but I didn’t really see it being utilized.
The medium guard is used so much for katana because of the two handed grip, is suits it most in terms of body mechanics, but it is more than that. The two handed grip's advantage is in it's leverage, allowing extremely fast twtich responses. This makes it very dangerous for the sabre to go near that area as it is where the sabre will mostly likely get bound up. This is the same in rapier vs longsword for example. It's also a little hard for the type of sabre used here to exploit that way due to its immsense forward mass, it just can't do those quick snipes at a guard position very well at all.
@Liminal as well as what school the wielder studied. I'd like to see a Jigen Ryu practitioner in dragonfly stance against a Western sabre.
That one was really action packed. Thanks for sharing. Was cool to see 2 of my favorite sword types going head to head.
Speaking from a ranked Japanese Sword Fighting & HEMA background, that was probably one of the best performances of katana steel sparring I’ve seen from a fighter that seems predominantly HEMA trained; my compliments!
Really working the Katana to its key strengths here; fighting primarily from center guard, really well executed counter-cuts to stay defended, brilliantly using various deflecting parries that *do feature* in many Japanese sword styles, and the footwork was not that bad.
It seems from this fight alone like *there’s some formal Japanese sword style training going on*, if that intuition’s correct definitely keep it up!
Did you see those two wrist strikes? Itto school. 100%.
The grapple seemed interesting but risky. The katana user got what looked like a stab to the collarbone of the saber user but received a slash at the waist level,a killing blow for a probably non lethal injury but still seems risky. Mind sharing any thoughts on grappling in katana combat?
@@elchjol2777 under normal circumstances, the katana would've been dropped and a wakizashi if not a tanto would've been drawn. The blade is shorter, faster, easier to get into the opponent's circle of defense when at bad breath distances like that and it would've left his offhand free to grab the wrist of his opponent to prevent that cut to the abdomen he received.
And I wouldn't discount the lethality of that abdomen wound-in the days of dueling, before fencers started disinfecting their blades before settling the matter of transgression, a 2" deep cut was said to be a death sentence. It would've been weeks (if not a month) of sepsis, agony and a putrid wound before blood poisoning finally did you in!
@@nickaschenbecker9882 Oh so a delayed mutual kill,thanks for the info
Shame you can't say the same about their use of sabers, which is even more sad when you consider this isn't a Japanese martial arts club but a hema club. If they wanted to show the saber properly the guy with the saber should also be using either a dagger or buckler in his off hand. Then you'd really see how effective sabers are. As is though they're just putting out misinformation cause this isn't what a duel between a saber user and a katana user would look like.
I want to root against the katana, but most users seem to be very good and they seem to get the upper hand at close range.
From a distance they seem to be able to defend but not attack, but their dowers look sturdier, the less flex seems to be a defensive advantage
I'd still choose the saber due to the reach and the nimbleness available.
But katana are looking more and more formidable to me
Honestly, I'd say the Katana is definitely more nimble. This sabre is not that lighter compared to the Katana, and has a lot of authority in the cut. This is a cavalry sabre after all, and it doesn't have that much of point control. I don't know which sabres you are experienced with, but this one is a beast to wield and doesn't favor minimalist movements.
@@18ps3anos
He could be talking about a polish karabela. Those are as fast as light.
A man named Nick with a katana fighting in Landsknecht pluderhosen brings a smile to my face as does his use of said sword. THAT is how you take an enemy's blade with a katana. No "edge to edge" nonsense. I even saw a couple of very nice ippon! Our friend with the saber should've used the hanging guard more. He did very well with it. Such a clean bout by two polished swordsmen. The grapples reminded me why, historically, swordsmen wore daggers. Getting that katana behind Rick's collarbone proved a chore. Better to drop your sword and draw your tanto!
Yeah but it's a very flawed fight, I mean why is the saber user not also equipped with either a buckler or dagger? This isn't going to do much to show what a katana can do against a saber user if you're not going let the saber user use the saber to its full advantage.
@@davidcraft4644I do not believe that napoleonic wars era british cavalrymen and officers were issued bucklers.
@@davidcraft4644 Cavalry sabers were not historically used with buckler or dagger!
@@Master...deBaterExactly you are supposed to only use the sword arm side of your body to extend your range increasing your defense and offense simultaneously. That's why the Sabre is the better weapon of choice in my opinion
This was the greatest katana combat I've seen so far. Very well practised deflections, posture and etc
The saber is an unsung classic
Really underrated sword design. It is sort of gauche compared to others but the efficacy is undeniable
The sabre fencer can't really rely on the guard to protect him so the aggressiveness is a really good idea
0:54 I don't think I've ever seen someone using the saw technique.
The double kill at 4:15 ish beautiful. Probably give the point to the Katana but still very nice from both.
Beautiful, elegant sabre fencing there.
The step back at 3:33 was very well timed
I'll pick the saber, since I could hold an dagger in the freehand. Or an gun.
it's also a better blade in general but don't let katana fantasy fanboys know or they'll come in screeching
@@escapetherace1943 better in what way? Blades can vary in many ways
It's annoyingly fast.@@BarsusDraco
@@BarsusDraco range for example
If you need extra weapon in the other hand, then your sabre is not good enough 😂😂
Great fun as always! Love see the classic matchup. Keep at it. Oh, and love this new intro Nick.
The saber seems to have a longer reach because it is wielded with one hand and half a body.
The katana seems to have more power and control because it is held with both hands. It is a win-win situation.
There is an old saying in Japanese swordsmanship that "it takes three times the skill of a spearman to counter a sword with a spear," but a katana will have a hard time against a sword like an epee or a rapier that strikes at once after a short pause.
In the early days of exploration-mid to late 1540s-Portuguese merchant marines would dock in Yokohama harbor to trade wares. Because these were sailors and were in a foreign place they didn't really understand they'd get drunk and start fights. The so-called "black carracks" sword was very popular in Portugal at the time. It soon became apparent that the katana was taught in such a way that it was only good at fighting against other katana. The samurai adapted-toppeigoshirae were invented, kissaki moroha zukuri style blades became popular again-they were absorbing what was useful from seeing these Portuguese merchant marines with their transitional rapiers. The tables turned and, after prolly more than a few sailors got killed for acting a fool, it was ordered the swords stay on the ship when on shore leave. Eventually Japan closed its ports to foreginers, anyway, though.
The next time samurai faced foreign swordsmen-when Hideyoshi decided to invade Mainland China and the Korean peninsula in the 1590s-the samurai ran into a different problem altogether. The Korean swordsmen were terrified and no match but Chinese soldiers had lots of guns!
@@nickaschenbecker9882Source for any of this?
I find the claim about the Japanese having a hard time due to ming guns strange, since a big problem (at least for the koreans) was that the japanese were the ones who had a lot of guns.
@@atom8248 John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
@atom8248 I dunno about China, but Korea was definitely a cannon superpower pre-17th century.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_cannon
I think you're right about the "guns" though, hand firearms were much more common in Japan, though it's debated how effective that was during the Imjin War.
No. Saber is superior
I loved the leg sawing 😂👍👍
Kinda wanna see samurai and Japanese army sword fight during the Meiji period of japan like in last samurai with Tom cruise or like with live action movie of ruronin kenshin. We need more stuff like this. It cool to see mix ups like this
Traditional katana vs a kyu-gunto and longsword or katana vs tachi. Or Musashi's two handed sword work vs his one handed sword, or his one handed sword adapted to a dedicated one handed blade.
it's weeb stuff
last samurai gets gunned down because feudalism is not the future end of story
I've been doing various martial arts from mma and kickboxing to goju ryu and xing yi quan. And these are two of the best swordsman I've seen in my life. As far as applicable combat is concerned they are both absolutely flawless.
nice lack of grappling lol
@@efafe4972 I started with judo when I was 15. And I grew up wrestling.
@@y_magaming9798 you didnt mention it
Dunno If i'm a samurai fighting a guy with a sword like that, i'd choose a more unorthodox and flexible guarding stance, just for safety.
0:28--0:38 is probably the most realistic sword exchange ever.
One guy starts pushing and closing the distance, and before you know it two guys are grappling at each other, one stabbing the back whilst the other is sawing the leg like cutting a steak
Is it just me, or are the effective ranges really fascinating in this bout? It looks to me like the sabre has an advantage at both long and short range (by attacking with the rear hand) but that the katana has a lot of ability to dominate in the middle range.
2 handed swords sacrifice reach and range of motion for strength and fast twitch response. If you could see in the video the sabre guy is following through his motions because it’s difficult to stop his sword and he needs the momentum to strike a 2 handed guard, whereas the katana guy is waiting for him to attack first before counter attacking his slow recovery.
@@veritas4887 John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Isn’t it cool how there was a brief period in time when Sabre and Shinken got to spar and possibly battled. Idk what class I’d like to take first.
Aren't sabers meant to be partnered up with a pistol??
They were often carried together yes, though typically used seperately, especially as the pistol of this sabre era was single shot. The sword was the primary weapon of both officers and cavalrymen in the era of this sword.
I think this is an interesting phenomenon that occurs whenever one and two handed swords are put up against each other. The katana is so much more stable during blocks or parries and much harder to push off line during attacks. That being said, that two handed grip requires that the shoulders are much more squared to the target which changes footwork. The saber remaining largely perpendicular to its target would have definite advantages in their backwards/forwards movement and maximum range. I would be interested how a heavier saber(like one of the Ottoman's or Turkish ones) would perform in this match up. A heavier blade might disrupt the katanas advantage on stability while maintaining the greater mobility and range that a one-handed grip affords.
It feels like the stances for the saber really give it a wide range of angles to defend against, but it seems to struggle with recovering from them because its wide, sweeping movements are so telegraphed and dependent on one hand. At least 3 different times in these bouts the katana landed second intention blows that were just too fast for the saber to react to.
Love the inclusion of grappling
This is so cool. Thank you guys!
Which school of Kenjutsu does Nick practice? Many of his moves reminded me of my time during Kendo training.
I (Nick) don't have one. I did practice kendo for a while a long time, but really what I am doing here is regularly pouring over old kenjutsu demonstration videos, pulling anything I can find that is interesting and incorporate the techniques. With an experienced framework in lots of European styles that works just fine. I am always working to make my katana work more authentic in form whenever I can spare the time.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing As a kenjutsu practitioner I found the arms much too extended. Most moves in the styles I am fluent in (Komagawa Kaishin-ryû, Tenshin-shoden-katori-shintô-ryû and Ogawa-ryû) have the arms much closer to the body except when striking. That makes it harder for a lunge-style weapon to score a kote (wrist) hit and easier to do a sliding parry with the katana. Nonetheless I found this video very edifying, and found a few points to ponder in my own training. Thank you for posting this!
@@LeSerpentBlanc Thanks for this! I came to comment the same. I trained in Bunjinkan (lower stance than most kenjutsu, but similar) and noticed the same things. Using a basic guard with the blade extending outward is asking for trouble. I prefer a high guard, but that comes from my height!
@@LOL_Church I prefer a straight stance with gedan low guard, because I'm still not over my amazement of how quickly you can whip up the blade into a sliding parry or block from that position. Might have to do with my height of 1.85 m, though. I agree that staying in chûdan (and a high extended Langer Ort-flavoured chûdan, at that) is asking for trouble. The fencer in the video is good enough to overcome the limitations of that position, though. I wouldn't be able to pull that off.
Shinden-Mugai-ryu guy here. Yeah most kenjutsu forms I've seen typically keep the arms closer to the body. It also helps keep the opponent from knowing your exact range. Something that I am struggling with in my current italian bolognese studies.
Great sparring!
Can you tell me where the katana is from? is it sigi's?
Black Fencer, we have the Sigi as well. I will get a review done of both of them soon.
Looks like katanabro's hands were sliced off a few times
The advantage with the katana is that it's a two-handed weapon, but both blades are curved and designed for slicing!
The two handed grip comes with advantages and disadvantages. Primarily that the two hand grip leverage makes it very quick to accelerate and decelerate, but it comes at the cost of dexterity and reach. A classic min/max kind of scenario.
@@user-ch9vd4cd3t katanas almost always have short blades like arming sword length. If you med longer its a nodathi. Sory for my speling.
@@martinhg98 That's debatable, actually. Japanese were much shorter on average around the sengoku jidai and into the Edo jidai than Europeans were during the Middle Ages through Renaissance into the Thirty Years War. Today, Japanese men average about 1.70 m, and they are having a hard time finding guys who still fit into historical suits of armour; most of the museum pieces shown at jidai matsuri are now worn by very petite women of 1.50 m or less. If a katana of 70 cm nagasa (blade length) is the correct length for an 1.50 person that means that a person of 1.85 m height would need a katana of 86.5-ish length. Overall length would go up from 1 m to 1.25 or thereabouts if the hilt goes up in size as well (which is debatable depending on the style). We're definitely getting closer to longsword range there.
@@martinhg98Not at all true, before the edo period katana were often about the size of european longswords. Edo period laws forced everyone to have their swords shortened. At the end of the edo period long swords come back briefly as straight kinno-to in the hands of samurai loyal to the emperor.
I've been learning a lot about Sabres and really, the fight seems well balanced. Though he would've avoided three or four killing blows using the hanging guard. I've never seen a Sabre held this way, it doesn't guard the exterior properly and his legs are very far apart, not giving much room for use of attacks.
Incredible fight!!
I’m so torn on which blade is my favorite
Pistol with 20 rds in the offhand maybe wins.
These men “get after it” respect !
This is pretty good.
With how fast a one handed saber can swing I would think the best move for a katana user to use is to go for his own attack when the saber user swings so that he is forced to either back up or guard or they both get hit or doesn’t hit first. Saying this after the saber user attempts a swing and the katana weilder is either out of reach or he manages to block the initial swing.
Few lessons I had with sabre and swords 15+ years ago teacher told me rule is to be mobile and change angles keep distance he was teaching us defensive reaction stance letting opponent engage first moving backwards reading and aiming for hands and grip. He always kept moving his sword never stood in one place.
Those strategies vary immensely both on what style and culture you are looking at, but also situationally and tactically within a style. There are styles that encourage constant movement, like the Spanish destreza fencing for example, and yet there are contemporary Italian sources that recommend a very static stance and only to move when going to attack or parry. There are strengths and weaknesses to each. Same as maintaining distance to strike the hands, it is a legitmate approach that exists in many styles, but there are also at times huge advantages in closing distance. This is a very broad subject where you will find an extremely broad set of approahces in a single style, let alone comparing many.
Both amazin but the saber is always beautiful
"ok this was fun" pulls out pistol*
Серии из двух ударов явно было недостаточно для сабли.
I read that there is a short saber.
I want to know what it looks like.
They are called hangers or cutlasses, depending if it is for the army or for the navy...
I love katanas, but those are over romantized in movies. Saber wins for speed and flexibility. Nice sparring, I enjoyed every moment😊😊😊
Don't think the katana is so inferior than saber. I also prefer the saber but in the end in a 1vs1 duel of swordsmen, the most skilled will end up winning, the saber has advantages but it also has disadvantages compared to a sword that is used with two hands like the Katana.
For example: The katana weighs the same as many sabers, some are lighter than Katana, but the saber used in the video weighs the same as that katana and the katana when wielded with both hands allows you to make cuts at greater speed and with more force, but loses range because the saber user can take advantage of the entire extension of his arm to execute a thrust.
i like this comparison alot better than samurai vs knight, considering that samurai vs knight is so anachronistic. This pairing is 100% certain to have happened many times in history.
勘違いしちゃいけないのは、こういう持って戦う武器は、武器が強いんじゃなくて、使って戦う人が強いんだよね。
Lo dije muchas veces, en un duelo como este con dos espadas distintias, cada una con ventajas y desventajas, va a ganar el espadachin mas habilidoso. Al ambas armas tener ventajas y desventajas contra la otra, va a ganar el que sepa aprovechar mejor su arma.
Aunque si me preguntas a mi, la mejor espada en una situacion de 1vs1 sin armadura es la espada ropera.
Great video
My thought is, being more of a knife guy, its probably similar to the debate we have over our blade shapes. One guy will argue a fairbarn-sykes is the best knife for fighting, another will tell you its a bowie. The former will argue that his knife would have been in and out of you six times before the bowie was even drawn, and the latter will argue that his knife would have removed the arm entirely before that could happen. At the end of the day theyre just different tools designed to do different things, and specializing in the one that suits your needs is going to make you far more effective than if you choose the "best sword all around". Though, i dont sword fight. I can only put this in the context of much shorter blades.
Hello, may I know which one is better, Black Fencer's KATANA or SIGI's KATANA?
For handling and looks, Black Fencer, for durability, Sigi. We have both and much prefer to use the Black Fencer, but the sigi has much thicker edges, and so takes less edge damage and the grip lasts longer (being simple cord rather than the traditional method). I'd rather put up with a little less durability for a much nicer handling sword personally, but others prefer thicker and tougher edges.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Thank you for your answer
Is there any colleges that have historical/saber fighting courses?
Why isn't the sabre wielder carrying a pistol, in his left hand, given the 1796 light cavalry pattern?
Because neither of them would be bringing swords to a fight, but guns
In 1543, Japan already had firearms, and samurai also had bows. A fully armed samurai had at least three bladed weapons and two types of ranged weapons."
For distance one hand is better, but for power two hand is better. Every style have advantages and disadvantages. So usually I always alternate using one hand and two hands continuously.
First rule of saber fighting, do not stop attacking, blow after blow, till you hit.
I am leading a volunteer sport sabre club in the US. Since I can't change the rules of sport fencing what could I change about the training to bring it more in line with what fencing is? The club's theme is identifying historical systems within the sport. The first thing to change is mentality. Some may scoff at this but I think there is something here worth exploring. Can history establish a "meta" in the modern game?
That's a tough one. Sport sabre has developed to an incredibly high level of skill within its ruleset and in terms of athleticism. If you wanted to take something from the history of sabre I would say it's focus in defensive distance work. Chasing the scoring point is a problem we encoutner all the time in HEMA, and is of course the object of a point scoring system, but the absolutely most important aspect of it as a weapon should be defence. This is also complicated further by the lack of below the waist target in sport sabre which does encourage a lot more distance covered. If sport sabre could take anything from military sabre I would say it;s defensive qualities to use as training games and exercises. The maintaining of distance, the leg slips, not taking too big a risk consideirng what might land on you in riposte or double.
It's a tough one though, as the target zones, purpose, training tools and ground fought on change so many factors make the difference between the two huge. I have been meaning to work more with sport sabres in a HEMA enviroment as a test of how useful they could be or not, as I have not used them in a long time. I'll make a load of videos on this in the coming months and that might be useful too.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Thanks! I would be happy to provide input on this subject if you like. It is a huge difference but I think where historical concepts can appear are in second intention attacks and distance traps to control the tempo of the game in favor of more practical techniques (even moulinets from hanging guards if watched closely). I competed in modern tournaments but I favor books on the subject up to the year 1950.
Very interesting thank you
I can say if those were a hussar vs a samurai I can say a hussar will win because if they're using the 1796 light cavalry sabre the katana block would be easily break delivering a death blow
Not knowing much about it, it appeared that the handguard on the saber was a definite advantage. I saw a couple of times the blade slide down and hit the hand of the Katana swordsman. I have noticed that the European swords are a bit better designed I guess because the Japanese had to fight each other the Chinese and maybe the Mongols. The Europeans had to fight everybody.
Samurai guy's footwork is all straight line fencer, when a Samurai would have used his pivot to create attack angles in his advance. The Samurai practiced defense, not retreat. If the Samurai guy is gonna spar by the rules of fencing, then he has to Repost, and respond to every strike with a block/parry strike.
What's the blade length on this katana? It looks rather short (as many historical ones were).
76cm, so towards the higher end of the average historical range, they are indeed very short for a sword with a two handed grip.
Keep in mind average Japanese height for men in samurai days hovered just over 5 feet. So not "short" for them.
Interesting dynamic to ponder the difference in reach if he had a blade length comparable to his height.
Indeed the Japanese were on average short, but if we look at a typical chart for calculating your ideal blade length -
5 ft 7 in - 5 ft 9 in 2.45 shaku 29 inch
5 ft 9 in - 5 ft 11 in 2.50 shaku 30 inch
I (Nick), am 5'7", and would therefore typically use a blade around 29 inch. The sword I am using in this video has a 30" blade, and so is therefore in the typical range for the next height category up. Whereas in Europe I'd expect to use a blade of 34-40" at my height with a two handed sword. Katanas were indeed very short, even in scale to their users. It was a preference of the styles/traditions.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Got it. Thanks for the info!
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing It's worth noting that other Japanese sword types could be much larger. Japanese soldiers/pirates/bandits were famous for using big two-handed swords in 16th/17th-century China. Even the smaller sidearm version of the Japanese-style swords Cheng Zongyou wrote about was 119cm of total length, which is close to many European longswords.
Where did you got the Katana from
Black Fencer.
I see some middle or even first saber blade cuts? What is their effectiveness with real saber?
I am not sure what you are referring to, do you mean the cut angles/numbers?
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing i mean blade sections. The forte section, the middle section. Sorry, English is not my native language.
The forte would usually be blunt on these. The middle would be sharp. The nature of this fight does bring some actions very close, the shots landed with the middle of the blade came with a powerful swing and would still have been effective. I think the only shot delivered with the forre was followed up with a drawing action, making it into an effective strike.
I don't know much about sword-fighting so excuse my ignorance, but it looks like the guy with the katana was just faster and it really just came down to skill in the end.
As the katana user here I have signficiantly more experience than the other as I am his instructor with decades more experience. However, he is still a competent fencer and you can see he gets some good blows in and causes me lots of problems. Skill is the overall most important factor, but certain weapons do have advantages and disadvantages in different scenarios which can be enough to balance the odds or tip them in ones favour even with a skill disparity.
In terms of speed, the katana is a much faster weapon to accelerate and decelerate due to it's two handed grip and the fact that it is roughly the same weight as the sabre here. Also the sabre in use is a front weighted cavalry sabre. But the sabres speed and agility comes in it';s rotations and agility at the wrist.
They forgot they were fencing for a sec there
How so?
not one of those movie katanas that can cut through all other blades
Jajajajaja me haz hecho reír.🤪🤪🤪🤪
... does the fencer holding the katana have a background in Kendo? Because his technique seems "15-ish century longsword" to me. 🤔Nothing wrong with that, just wondering. Also - I don't quite remember who it was, but I think someone from the Community of the Sword (I THINK it was Skallagrim, but not sure) once did a comparison between Kendo and Longsword, finding that they have a LOT in common, so literally nothing wrong with applying (most of) those techniques.
He is probably a longsword fighter who trained a little in katana. I can see he executes lots of his techniques like a longsword.
2:25 Solid aikijujutsu style grappling to slice at the neck. Not textbook clean, but well executed given the real time scenario, especially if they're below 2nd dan in their kenjutsu style. That said, 4:14 is literally textbook clean; perfect execution of the the cut. Really too bad it doubled. The next two exchanges are beautiful, too, though. Both of these swordsmen are excellent practitioners. 3:26 is a good example of why the longsword's crossguard is nice to have, though, which is why I now prefer kriegsmesser to katana.
what I've learned is a suit of mail goes a long way lol
that many doubles or at least cripple wounds landing... and they're fully aware of eachother!
one handed and side stance gives so much more range
the katana looks shorter than I imagined
so saber has the reach advantage, however the katana has strength and speed behind it
It's not quite so simple with the speed and strength comparison. When it comes to strength the 1796 light cavalry sabre is well known as one of the most brutal cutters in history, easily taking limbs and heads off, much like the katana. In speed its not a direct comparison as they work differently. The two haned grip of the katana gives more leverage in the hands and that means faster acceleration and deceleration, so quick to start and stop. But rhe sabre in it's greater dexterity of grip, by both being single handed and completely uninhibited by extra grip and the body mechanics of two handed usage, is faster at many rotational followup cuts and rapid extreme changes in cutting angles. These circular motions also generate tremendous power. Going back to strength, the katana does have a leverage advantage in the bind, but this is counter by the rapid changes in cutting angles mentioned previously.
So it is not at all a simple comparison. Neither sword has a complete speed or strength advantage, but are stronger and faster at different things.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing i understand. was just making the observation that came to mind upon initial viewing
sabre win as its monility and more mobolity move but it dont have big sharpness and hard that help them block attacks from different heavy waepons. katana win as its sharpness and medium mobility also it can almost block all kind of heavy weapon except kanabo and something really heavy it cons is just slower and heavier so you can't use it with one have so you have more mobilty
The Rapier would beat both. I love watching a very good rapier fencer vs katana and other swords
As someone with zero experience in sword fighting, it seems the katana has an advantage here. At first, you'd think the sabre would because of the reach and that's normally a huge factor but because of the katanas 2 handed nature, it seems to have a significant speed advantage along with being able to generate more power with less space and having much better control once the blades clash. A sabre is better in the cut so swinging into the katana is leaning into your strength but the cuts are slower and because it's one have, the katana has a much easier time closing the distance and getting hits in. Something that fairs better in the thrust, such as a rapier, would be a much better counter to the katana if we're talking one handed weapons. All and all, the katana is a great civilian dueling weapon which is essentially what it was relegated to in the edo period.
The sabre won bro.
And still the saber dominated the world
@@alfrede.neuman9082I'm pointing out an advantage. I was expecting the sabre would dominate but i wasn't expecting some advantages that the katana does have. It doesn't mean it wins.
@@AstroRayGun Speaking as someone who both regularly spars with swords AND also owns and collects antique examples of both nihonto and sabres, I can personally tell you that IMO, Katana/gunto/nihonto are GROSSLY overrated. They’re extraordinarily heavy, usually very short, have no hand protection, have very poor grips, and are no sharper than a typical sabre.
And that’s from someone who currently owns around 7-8 very nice antique examples, and has owned several others. They’re pretty and interesting historically (hence why I have them), but they’re objectively crap weapons.
Of the dozens of antique swords I’ve collected over the years, my Japanese stuff would be the LAST to be picked if I actually needed to go pick a fight with someone. They’re stupidly mythologised by anime fanboys who think they’re handcrafted by the gods themselves, and who have no idea that they’re actually fairly shit weapons because they’ve never actually handled one, or if they have, they’ve never handled something better.
They only make any sense in the VERY specific context of Japanese combat - Which itself was devoid of ANY input or influence by outside factors or cultures for centuries.
QED, the sabre won (which it did) because it’s a VASTLY more useable weapon than the katana, and is a better weapon in every practical sense.
Wouldn't the saber fencer profit from equipping a buckler or parrying dagger to his off hand? I don't know if that would be a historically valid scenario, but then I would love to see maxed out specs for each of them. The katana fencer swapping that one for an odachi for longer reach in warfare and the saber guy getting shield or coat for his second hand.
Yes it would be an advantage, so long as the user had the ability/knowledge to use it well and not compromise their sabre work. In these fights we typically go for realistic and likely scenarios, and the military sabre of the 18th and 19th century was almost never used with anything in the offhand. There are however always a few exceptions and we do use sabres with offhand weapons sometimes.
You know, the second the right dude get his hand on the kodachi the fight became one sided. That too much range (almost twice) for the saber to close gap, mean while the other guy can just keep kiting out of range. I'm not bias or anything, but it's just that longer weapon give an insane advantage though out history
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Next time, get someone who does polish sabre...
But who won..??..
Katana sould be better normally. But you have the secon hand free for a gun with the sabre, so in mondern times its the better weapon
GOŚĆ Z SZABLĄ NIE WYKORZYSTUJE DYSTANSU , JAKI MA TRZYMAJĄC SWĄ BROŃ JEDNĄ RĘKĄ , A PCHNIĘCIA SĄ NAJSZYBSZYMI AKCJAMI.
When real sword fights were happening I would not be surprised if there were a lot of fights where both guys ended up bleeding to death. With both people skilled I don't see any way that either person is not getting out of this without a bunch of serious cuts. Especially if they were not wearing armor.
That is also pretty the most realistic end of such duels
@@BarsusDraco If you want realism, you should know that only some duels were to the death, many duels are to first blood. I mean, the first one to bleed lost, and there are other duels until one can no longer continue. although of course I'm talking about arranged duels, not duels that take place in the middle of a battlefield.
Rick Bruiser vs Nick Bruiser.
i can see the saber contestant its more experienced than katana contestant 😢
uhhh a saber and karana are basically the same damn thing; just different handles/grips
1v2 hand grips what makes them fundamentally different, it completely changes the mechanics of the weapon, which is why single and double handed weapons were typically divided and taught separately, even within the same school ith shared principles. It makes for a vast difference between the two.
Wouldn't using A two handed weapon without A "Reach" advantage put you at an immediate disadvantage????
Yes, although the two handed grip offers more than just the ability to wield a longer blade. Leverage is the key, and the two handed allows rapid acceleration and deceleration, as well as a very strong bind. So that is what the katana gains here, at the expense of dexterity, which is the greatest strength of the sabre.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Precisely. Katana can be lightning quick, especially on counters, when the upper hand acts as a fulcrum
Who actually ‘won’ here? The saber?
I think its a =
I know nothing about sword fight but looking on the video I feel like katana is better for explosive attack while sabre is more flexible and better for defense
The important thing to take from this video presentation is that the katana wielder in the video is not trained in its use. The last time Nick mentioned it, he said it was a comparison of two different weapons, not two different styles of swordsmanship.
So the attempt here is one of a western fencer trying to use a katana as if it were any other type of western sword.
日本刀とサーベルの決闘について一つ面白い話があります。
1887年に日本の山根正次という人物がオーストリアに留学しました。
そこで、ウィーンの大学生と口論になり、日本刀とサーベルでの真剣勝負をすることになりました。
結果は山根正次の勝利です。
彼は額に傷を負ったものの、サーベル使いを撃退することに成功しました。
Problem with guys using katanas ism they almost always learn a lot about how to defend but almost none about how to attack, most modern sshools have taken those parts from their curriculum. You can visibly see the guy there doesnt know how to attack.. at all.
It's more to do with the weapon being faced. Most people expect a weapon style to remain the same when moving from a matched weapon fight to a mixed one, but the reality is changes are often essential. Try facing a sabre with a katana and you will see exactly the problem, the sabre can interupt timings with an incredible dexterity and range of angles
The matchup this time looks very fair compared to the more famous synthetic sabre vs katana video
Dude really? Cavalry saber and katana both got minimum hand guard and the guard is not at body siluet? They are presenting the hands to the enemy.
As was a common practice, thinking all swords with lower levels of hand protection were always used in protracted postitions is an artefact of viewing through later and more complex hilted systems. Take the cavalry sabre shown for example, it was taught used extended forward guards exclusively for both cavalry and infantry use. Japanese styles used a broad mix of guards, but often used extended forward guards heavily, and in the situation of this video, they are one of the best options.
Why do you think that the katana user is not releasing the sword and hit with one hand from time to time to get more range?
Because it is very risky to do against the sabre. You don't gain a huge amount of reach and it will still be less than the sabre (76cm blade vs 83cm). As soon as you go one handed with the katana it becomes basically a bad sabre, very short, it can be beaten through, it doesn't have the hand protection and the grip is awkward for one handed work. I might include some attempts at it to the hand another time, but the risk is very high, and if you get it wrong, that cavalry sabre's striking power is immense.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing
I have noticed that extending the strike so it starts two handed, releases with the back hand holding (gaining another 10 cm..) and follwing the strike back to two handed is really a great move to gain ground against a retreating opponent, and as a first "lounge" into a fast short range two handed exchange
Indeed we use such a move with longswords, but then they have much longer grips and also aren;t as such a reach disadvantage in blade also. It's certainly somethingt that can work, but I'd still be very careful with it, especially as I know my opponent here lvoes timed hits, which is something I am very careful to avoid in this fight.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing
Thanks! Been great seeing you guys in action. Keep up the great work!
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing agree on not using one hand. But the arms of your standard guard looks way too extended to be kenjutsu, looks more like kendo (which is more sport than martial art)
The guy with katana is missing the techniques and the mind set , he lose lot of chances to strike 🤨
Indeed, unlike Sabre user utilized in balancing and flexibility, Japanese swords user in reality utilized in strength a lot. They’d try to cut you with your weapon if you try to block their strike other than deflecting their strike. If it was a real katana user, he would try to first land a hard weapon contact to knock the sabre out of the hand or out balanced, then land a cut to the wide open body.
この人剣道やってたんじゃない？
とっても動きが滑らかで刀の利点が分かってる気がする
でしょ！
whenever i see this kind of fights the katana guy moves slow, while when you see authentic japanese practioner of katanas they move and hit fast
Likely because you have been watching kendo videos. Kendo is to Japanese swordsmanship what Olympic fencing is to western swordsmanship. That isn't to disparage either Kendo or sport fencing, but they have very different goals, rules and training tools. Go and watch some Kenjutsu practitioners fighting with full weight steel training katanas and you will find it a world apart from Kendo.
Странно, я думал что боец с катаной одержит убедительную победу, ибо двуручный хват при сравнимой массе оружия - большое преимущество. Но фактически, бой выглядел так, будто у боеца с катаной сильно затруднен обзор - наносить точные удары с большой дистанции у него не особо получалось.
He was not using kenjutsu techniques, but a combination of longsword and sabre techniques.
If you liked katana fighter then imagine if he was really trained in it 2:22 tells me he wasn't cause he makes the most basic mistake with his footwork which is a fundament in kendo. The power and range of the footwork comes from the backfoot not the frontfoot. A lot of his attempts could be succesfull if he actually knew how to move properly.
Good. KDZ.
In fighting using saber,it is paired with dagger as secondary weapon. Right hand hold the saber while the left hand holds a Dagger.
I don't get it. Something is missing here. Kendo's fights look completely different. They not that slow. I don't get it why this fight looks so different than kendo fight (watching katana user). In Kendo they use rules, tactics, moves like there were fighting katanas. So why moves of this katana's figher look nothing like in Kendo?
Kendo is a relatively modern sport with very restrictive rules. It is also practiced with shinai, which are extremely light and handle nothing ;ike the original swords. In this regard it is a lot like comparing modern foil and epee sport fencing to rapier and smallsword. Here a steel training sword of accurate weight and handling is used, and without sport rules. Kendo is really very far removed from historical Japanese swordsmanship.
If you want a better idea of how Japanese swordsmanship looked then I suggest you check out kenjutsu, of which techniques are drawn upon in this video, though not in solation, as we are predominately a school of European swordsmanship.
Lastly, this is a mixed weapon fight, and anyone who has fought against a wide range of weapons will know that a fighter must adapt to the opponent's weapon, and so it will look different to a matched weapon fight.
The kendo kata are probably a better representation of how Edo period japanese swords were used in fights.
Here are some Shinkage-ryu guys fighting sundome (non contact)
th-cam.com/video/5ALy3lhrgAQ/w-d-xo.html
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing A shinai is the same mass as a typical white oak bokuto (500g-700g). There are some exceptional cases like Niten Ichi Ryu which use spatula thin (360g) bokuto since they believe it improves cutting mechanics, or Tennen Rishin Ryu which uses a very heavy one (1800g) for building strength, but these are the exceptions.
Only one comment: katana was usually adjusted to the height of the swordsman. We are usually usung a default lenght that was used mostly by Japanese fencers that rose to 1,6m most. If someone is 1,8m or 2m, lenght of the blade should be adequately bigger. It makes katana prett much a Japanese longsword. Very nice duel btw. I wonder how oder budo would do, as I see Kendo here.
Glad you are enjoying it. Though there is no kendo here, this is a mix of some Kenjutsu being added to existing HEMA experience. About the sword length, though that is true, the training katana used here isn't particularly small. If we look at a typical scale chart for katana -
5 ft 7 in - 5 ft 9 in 2.45 shaku 29 inch
5 ft 9 in - 5 ft 11 in 2.50 shaku 30 inch
The user in this video is 5'7 and the katana has a 30" blade, and so the sword in this video is a tad long compared to the user. So the katana is close to the extremely small bast**d swords or hand and a half swords, though quite far apart from many of the more typical longswords. This is reflected in the way they are worn too. The katana relaly is a remarkably small sword for one with a two handed grip, even in scale to their user. Not to say the Japanese didn't have larger sword types of course.
nice
5:05 BÖNK
What is the fluffy pants on his thighs called?
Pluderhose is the style of them.