Shakespeare vs Milton: The Kings of English Literature Debate
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- Nearly four centuries after his death, no writer has come close to matching Shakespeare's understanding of the world -- or his gift for dramatic poetry. It's not just kings and queens that he captured so uniquely in his transcendent verse. Shakespeare analysed the human condition, not just for Elizabethan England, but throughout the world and for eternity. Britain may not have matched the Continent for music or art but when it comes to literature, Shakespeare sees off all international rivals, whether it's in the spheres of comedy, tragedy or the sonnet. Even today you and I quote Shakespeare without knowing it: if you act more in sorrow than in anger, if you vanish into thin air or have ever been tongue-tied, hoodwinked or slept not one wink, you're speaking the Bard's English.
Milton, say his fans, works on an altogether different, higher plane. In Paradise Lost -- the best poem ever written in English -- Milton moved beyond the literary to address political, philosophical and religious questions in a way that still resounds strongly today. In his complex, intellectual poetry he drilled down deep into the eternal truths and sought to embody new scientific discovery in his work.
His engagement with the issues of the day -- with the nature of knowledge, slavery, free will, love and creation -- was unparalleled. Despite complete blindness in middle age, he was the English republic's best known, most fervent apologist, and a key civil servant for Oliver Cromwell. In his other works, notably in Areopagitica, his attack on censorship, he showed himself as much a master of prose as poetry. He defines not only his age, but our own.
To help you decide who should be crowned king of English letters we brought together advocates to make the case for each writer, and they called on a cast of leading actors to illustrate their arguments with readings from the works.
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Harriet Walter embodies so perfectly Lady Macbeth that it's shocking at sight. Bravo!
Lady Macbeth was stunning. Absolutely stunning. Her acting was on another level. That’s passion for the work on an almost transcendental level; she BECAME that character. MAN. Goosebumps.
Harriet’s Lady Macbeth was breathtaking
A goblet full of literary elixir in the garden of literature. Gems and jewels, the rosary full of the beds of sense and sensibility . Indeed' there's a war and peace between the two gigantic personality in the inn of literature, that's shakespeare and Milton.......................................Many thanks for such hard labor for the literary students like us....
I enjoyed the performance more 😇💖
I will admit I never thought about comparing these 2, it would be like comparing a pear and ketchup.
"But I'm holding on for dear life
Won't look down, won't open my eyes
Keep my glass full until morning light
'Cause I'm just holding on for tonight
Help me, I'm holding on for dear life
Won't look down, won't open my eyes
Keep my glass full until morning light
'Cause I'm just holding on for tonight, on for tonight"
never stop running.
What both speakers have shown, directly and indirectly, is that Shakespeare ages better. That's really what it boils down to for me.
"Shakespeare makes humans into important huge things; Milton seems to be making important huge things have a human personification."
WELL STATED, THANKS
disagree! Shakespeare taught people how to express their feelings, Milton seems to try to let people understand himself.
Ssssss
"I am not here to argue that Shakespeare is better than Milton. But I am really here to argue why I value Shakespeare more than I value Milton"
Shades of Anthony's funeral oration? :)
"I am here to argue Shakespeare was a better actor than writer"
"All right. Aaaalll right now!"
NO ... MERELY STATING THE SUBJECTIVITY OF HIS OPINION
Edmund Spencer's Fairy Queen deserves consideration
@@matthewchunk3689 zzżza0à
Imagine the RSC, with all its talented actors, producing an audio-book recording/dramatisation of Paradise Lost. Oh, bliss!
th-cam.com/video/GINzUBvQ5nw/w-d-xo.html
@@johnmulligan455 : Agreed, a pale shadow of days gone by.
I have often done so!
The two scholars are amazing!! And the actors are sublime!! I've never felt so happy in my life, yet so jealous of those in that conference room!! I've been clapping and cheering and crying all at once. WOW. Thank you!
This is amazing!!
@@sheridixon190 agree
Wonderful!
A very important thing is left out I think. Shakespeare was aiming for a wide range of accessibility so that he could pay his bills. He wrote for the ignorant barbarous "ground- ling" and for the intellectual as well. Milton actually says in the opening invocation of book 7 of Paradise Lost "Still govern thou my song, Urania, and fit audience find, though few!". He's pretty aware that he wont be liked by a great number of people but wants to "soar above th' Aonian mount" anyhow.
This “ignorant barbarous groundling” talk gets on my nevera frankly. It’s not like regular people who don’t find literature that compelling can’t be/aren’t critical at least sometimes in some ways of the media they consume. Indeed, they likely had unique takes on these plays that, as far as I know, we aren’t privy to because they were largely illiterate (which does not equal stupid, “ignorant”, or “barbarous”.
@@thebigcapitalism9826even the unread can be commentators on higher concepts. I mean, the scots at and shortly after this period were probably seen much the same as the barbarous, illiterate crowd, and yet their method of theological catechism and esteem of wordcraft and poetry created a people who could hold quite poor or no literacy in tension with higher order thinking and expression
Honestly - that scene from Macbeth was the best Shakespearean acting I’ve ever seen
Admittedly silly to subject Milton and Shakespeare to a kind of competition but, this is well worth your time and effort. The benefit of having talented professional actors reading the small bits of their works takes this endeavor far beyond the typical classroom experience. Truly enjoyable and enlightening.
Is that Chesterton?
Shakespeare or Macgonnagal ...that is the question.
@@pauldixon5346
Macgonorrhea is ass
@@tripp8833 0
@@tripp8833 oo9oooooooooooo99ooo9ooo9oo9oooooo0oooipoo9looooop9oomoooppooopooopio oo oooo9oooooopo9o9loo9p9loo9o9oooo9oooloool9ooopoo9 look o9oo9ooo9oo9o9oo9oooooo9oooooooo look oo oo o9oooop
Shakespeare masters the sensual; Milton reaches the sublime.
Agreed
Very interesting discussion, and *AMAZING* acting/reading! Thank you for posting this.
Forget the debate! The acting is fantastic!!!
My GOD! That was the most brilliant Lady Macbeth's performance I've ever beheld 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
YES!
I know!
T
She’s the greatest! I watch everything she’s in!
I had to pause here at 20:00 just to say:
The acting between these two is extraordinary. 👏
"As a dramatist Shakespeare makes humans into important huge things. Milton seems to be making important huge things have a human personification."
It truly is comparing apples to oranges. Both are preeminent English lit. masters and are distinguished in their own right. Enjoyable and enriching experience!
I like your type of pizza
I think it was unfair to ask who is the greatest poet because being a prolific dramatist Shakespeare range is much broader than Milton's. However, if the question was, "Whose poetry has the most power? Then compare Satan's address to hell to the storm scene in," King Lear" there would be more purpose to the debate with Shakespeare being strongly challenged and very likely beaten by Milton.
Bringing in comedy did Milton no favours, for a debate on who is the best comic writer compare Shakespeare with Chaucer, not Milton. You could say, Shakespeare wins in the broadest sense, but does not write more powerful poetry than Milton. Finally, it is wrong to say you know where Milton is going, if that was so the ending of paradise lost would bemoan the loss of Adam and Eve, instead out of the loss he shows hope, resilience. and choice, with these closing lines,
"They, looking back, all the eastern side beheld
Of Paradise, so late their happy seat,
Waved over by that flaming brand; the gate
With dreadful faces thronged, and fiery arms:
Some natural tears they dropt, but wiped them soon;
The world was all before them, where to choose
Their place of rest, and Providence their guide:
They hand in hand, with wandering steps and slow.
Through Eden took their solitary way."
It’s not like Milton didn’t have range. He wrote plays and political discourse. If Milton is disadvantaged it’s that paradise lost is such an accomplishment that it eclipses anything alongside it, including his own work. Shakespeare’s advantage is more in quantity than it is range.
@Brandon Neifertvg
Really? I think the answer is easily Milton. Because he actually wrote original stories whereas Shakespeare merely retold stories already written by others.
John Milton wrote 'Aeropagitica' which is astonishing and legendary (especially for writers as a breed - it's his famous defense of learning over licencing of books - his arguments are still very relevant) It's probably the most exquisite and important English prose. Hands down, Shakespeare never wrote anything like that. I think jolly Shakespeare would agree. I love Shakespeare but I admire Milton more
Whatever the polemic, this is the first time I have ever actually applauded in front of the PC screen (after the Macbeth excerpts). Spellbinding.
+Andrew James The Shakespeare excerpts made me laugh and very nearly cry even though, being poorly educated, I'm not familiar with either Macbeth or Othello (although I know and love Julius Caesar which I studied at school in New Zealand in the 1960s). The debate seemed a slightly silly exercise as Milton was always at a disadvantage, but what a privilege it was to witness great actors pulling out all the stops.
So agree, the contrasts of that repeated scene won me over.
@ Andrew James
Try watching a very young Ian
McKellen doing the " is this a dagger I see before me" speech .
Spellbinding ! ( and freely available thanks to TH-cam !)
Dear iqsquared :), I would like to say, thank you, to you, for taking the time, energy and effort to both upload and share this video with the youtube community. Thank You, iqsquared :).
Milton's Satan is my favorite literary charecter ever.
Hey, dont forget
Clive's screwtape.
Wormwood was classic, no?
@@terrysmith8512 there is nothing in all literature to compare to milton's fall and rise of Satan into and from the burning lake. It is the most extraordinary thing in English poetry
Say first, for heaven hides nothing from thy view, nor the deep tract of hell...
@ Terry Smith
Right you are about Lewis’ master devil Screwtape and his minion nephew Wormwood! Screwtape’s cunning is astounding! Great book, Screwtape letters! Great writer, C. S. Lewis! Lewis said that a great weight was placed on his soul in getting into the character and mindset of Screwtape, seeing that Screwtape is the devil. I wonder if Milton experienced similar struggles and sentiments in writing the lines for his Satan. After all, how does one write the best lines for the worst and most evil of all beings! But, nonetheless, Shakespeare and Milton are in a realm far above all others.
Any attempt to compare Shakespeare and Milton as poets -- as if they were competing rock bands -- misconceives the genius of each man. Shakespeare excelled at delineating nuanced characters in highly figurative dramatic blank verse, dialogue that was meant to be performed. Milton wrote epic poetry and sonnets that are largely narrative. Milton could be wonderfully lyrical when he chose (see the "Sabrina fair" song in Comus), but his poetic purpose was generally serious and scholastic. Shakespeare was trying to entertain groundlings as well as royalty, and his plays were largely written to make a buck from the Globe Theater (he was part owner). He did not often write extended narrative pieces, and when he did, he didn't do it well. "The Rape of Lucrece" and "Venus and Adonis" are literary bricks. The two poets are most relevantly compared in the sonnet, in which both excelled. Shakespeare's sonnets are characterized by figurative conceits and surprising similes; Milton's sonnets are logical constructs in blank verse. Shakespeare is a spritely piano; Milton a sonorous organ. The comparison is apples and oranges. But I suspect the purpose of this intellectual debate was really intended to stimulate interest in both poets.
What is more heartening is that intelligent people are once again talking about these authors after the attempt by the "post modernists" over the last three decades to deconstruct all literature written by "dead white men" and render it null. Their influence today pervades American English departments, which have been politicized to the point of irrelevance. But I am glad to see outside of Academia there are still a few of us who appreciate the consummate craftsmanship of both Shakespeare and Milton and carry on the tradition. In my view, literature is too important to be left to the academics. An acquaintance with Shakespeare and Milton in my youth was a mark of an educated man. To my mind, it still is.
I SO FULLY AGREE with YOU . SO MUCH KNOWLEDGE and WISENESS , YOU SHOW . and so WELL WRITTEN and FORMULATED . in GRATITUDE .
Shakespeare never intended his plays to be for the elite only, literature is for all who get the chance to experience it. While I have limited knowledge of Milton (I am yet to finish Paradise Lost), I see no reason to choose one over the other in terms of ability. Their different contributions are highly valuable!
The knock on the academy is very strange, given that both the main speakers in this debate are, in fact, academics. You've listened too much to the propaganda.
I fear you are entirely neglecting to acknowledge that debates like this are just good FUN
The 'apostrophe to light' is still the best poetry in English.
Thank you, Intelligence Squared, for compiling the most brilliant, instructive debate I have ever had the pleasure to view-- the entire show enhanced by the highly talented actors who played bit parts written by both of the 2 literary giants under discussion.
Tonight's show will become one of my life's unforgettable experiences.
I have not seen it entirely. But justly it can be said Milton's poetry cannot be advocated properly in front of a gathering , or cannot be staged at all. Milton doesn't go with congregation unlike Shakespeare, and thus such a format of debating shall inevitably go into the favour of the greatest Bard. The hosts should realise Shakespeare can exercise effect on a normal mind, whereas Milton is literally inaccessible to normal people.
They disadvantaged Milton by providing actors who have more experience with Shakespeare.
But if one *is* meant to be performed and the other is not, how can this 'disadvantage' be redressed?
It cannot really be redressed as things stand today--what's needed is more performance of Milton on the popular stage. I don't see that happening though.
Thomas Duke In the case of Milton, it wouldn't be a play-like performance but more of a public reading of the work. Which might link with your earlier observation that Milton is disadvantaged in comparison to Shakespeare. But your observation on disadvantage might also (ultimately) show that there cannot be a race between, as they are rewarding in their own terms.
K Theodor It's true, Milton wrote his work to be enjoyed in the privacy of a quiet afternoon. At least, that's how I think most people have appreciated his work. So any competition that has them being read aloud on stage really plays to Shakespeare's side just by the nature of the competition. I think Miltonists would do well to avoid debating in this format--it's just inherently biased to Shakespeare's side.
+Thomas Duke True, but that's because not many actors are "familiar" with Milton.
Shakespeare V Predator is what I’m waiting for.
alien vs milton
Very droll.
An apple, an orange: you can't compare;
Let's also throw in Chaucer's juicy pear.
I love this. Without an question. It can make you think. To me, personally, Thinking is always a good thing.
Nah ... thinking is WAY overrated.
th-cam.com/video/7jsCqpGJTeU/w-d-xo.html.
Unfair to John Milton: as a poet you can compare him with Shakespeare. As a playwright William Shakespeare is unique in the History of the world Literature.
apples and oranges.
The Actor and the Actresses in this are AMAZING!
Shakespeare vs Milton? Why do they have to fight? They are both remarkable writers and there is plenty of time for both. Stop fighting, internet! You could be reading. :)
apemantus67 ohhhh yes! Someone finally read my mind! Thanks, dear! I couldn't agree more :)
apemantus67 We could be picking roses.
it's fun
It's not a PhD defense, it's just for fun. ;)
Well said, this is about of talking heads, cultural mandarins who seem to think what they have to say is relevant. It isn't to anyone but themselves.
The Milton presentation was very poorly designed.
Satan is the most interesting of the characters in Milton and his self-awareness and self-loathings much more captivating than Adam and Eve. He is human and trapped by his own pride.
Satan is literally Milton’s magnum opus protagonist. Hell, Satan is OUR protagonist. Emotionally fleshed out, he is both jealous and yearning for love. He hates his father but loves him still. He is disgusted by his personage but accepts his evil as his only companion and his only way forward. I have never thought to compare Shakespeare to Milton, but I know that I’m a Miltonian to my grave. There are very little protagonists that can measure up to Milton’s Satan.
@@TheBeastBandit *nods* I recognize Shakespeare's unmatched genius, to which even Milton owes a lot, but man, you can't doubt what Milton did with Satan. So, yes, like you, I'm a Miltonian.
What a marvellous collection of literary titans you have on the panel!
How fitting is it that the Milton loyalist is dry as a bone?
Eves awakening sublime acting
The second way to do Macbeth scene captivating
I loved to see these people, both actors and lecturers, who have worked so hard on these authors for so many years, thought so much about them, have given it all in their careers, and do so again on stage during this presentation. Way to go
1.I'm literally in love with Harriet after this.
2. I would have loved some more Milton, particularly Lycidas.
3. I agree that Milton is not as inaccessible as many think he is, and that this is a prejudice that needs to be stamped out.
4. Some of these comments are fantastic, and I'm glad to see Milton supporters.
5. I love how that actor suddenly had a revelation. For me, that just epitomises Milton so well. His work is revelatory, transcendental and transformative. Whilst it cannot be denied that Shakespeare is a great writer, I believe he is just one of the great writers in English literature, not the greatest. Milton takes me to a place where no other writer can.
I am in love with her now too (insert crying emoji here)
I have done M.A in Literature during the nineties and had both Shakespeare and Milton for our syllabus of Elizabethan literature For Shakespeare we " Hamlet " " Tempest ", " Richard 111, but I didn't even read it,while lost we did have " Paradise" , despite reading or possessing these plays I still passed the my paper of Elizabethan literature. Just because are professor of English literature who taught me Elizabethan literature was good and I took notes of what she lectured.
Yet, I feel that English is not taught well in many colleges of Indian, no audio visual aids are provided, and the students are not asked to act out dramas as the would, neither are they taken to any theatre to see Shakespearean plays.Because the English department are not equipped nor are they financially viable to take the students to and plays. It is was after four years of my English literature that I was able to read all plays of Shakespeare, and what a pleasure.
Shakespeare's high points are truly high points, but he has a TON of filler. If you live your whole life, and you are on your deathbed, I promise you will have absolutely zero regrets if you never got around to reading The Merry Wives of Windsor, All's Well That Ends Well or The Two Gentlemen of Verona. The Shakespeare plays you never hear discussed are never discussed for a reason.
Whereas, Milton is the definition of quality over quantity. His complete poetry can fit comfortably in a 500ish page book but every line was crafted with such precision and purpose that you discover something new on each reread. I am Team Milton, and I think that he's not only better than Shakespeare, but completely demolishes him and it's not even close.
So Milton is the Evangelion of English poets? Got it. 💯
After watching this debate (did not know of Milton to be honest ) I see that the fact that Shakespeare is still alive and still speaking today to us is because his language is timeless just as the epics of Homer or the Bible or Confucius etc. I am here now and I am facing life
Quite Compelling, and admirable considering the magnitude of day and age. Thank you for a phenomenal debate.
*MILTON*
I’m not sure the argument that Shakespeare is ‘easier’ than Milton carries much weight. Shakespeare has become more accessible through continued runs in theatre, numerous film adaptations and, in the UK at least, a long uninterrupted tradition of teaching his works in schools.
Despite this the average person continues to view Shakespeare as ‘intimidating’. Perhaps not to the same extent as Milton, however I’d contend that if Paradise Lost was a core part of the school curriculum, and received half as much attention in theatre and film, he would be considered more accessible than he currently is.
Was Milton also meant to be read out loud? Despite it being an epic poem, when I read it, I read it in silence.
Not really - but I'd argue there are a couple of things to be gained by it. Milton was incredibly sensitive to the rhythms of words, and Paradise Lost is bursting with auditory effects - alliteration, Latinate vs Germanic language, using hyperbaton to place unconscious stress upon certain words, etc - that can really be drawn out by a physical reading. Also consider that Milton originally intended PL to be a staged tragedy, and remnants of that remain in the final poem - most obviously, its sheer number of soliloquies and speeches. That makes a physical reading a very interesting study in influence. Satan's speeches in particular often parallel those of not only the classical tragic heroes, but also the classical orators (whose works are clearly best understood aloud). So, while Paradise Lost wasn't necessarily meant to be read out loud, there are quite a few reasons to do so.
How very, very strange. How odd and entirely unpredictable. The second version of Lady MacBeth brought me near to tears. I am amazed.
In the popular imagination, WS is the winner.
And yet there's more to JM than to WS's crowd-pleasing dramatisations.
Too bad today's generation don't know what acting looks like. They've replaced great acting with ugly faces on six pack abs. Don't believe me? Have you ever seen the cast of jersey shore or anyone on any cw show? No actors. No writers. No plot. No purpose.
MILTON ' S ' PARADISE LOST ' is ONE of the MOST BEAUTIFUL and DEEPEST BOOK EVER WRITTEN .
AN EPIC QUITE ABOVE SO MANY . A SERIOUS CONTENT , as the TITLE SUGGEST THROUGH REFERENCES . HIS POETIC UNIQUE CONSCIOUS STYLE , in TEN THOUSAND VERSES , RICH NEW VOCABULARY , METAPHORES , REFERENCES , ALLUSIONS , IMAGES , in LITERATURE CALLED ' BLANK VERSES ' . HE USED the so CALLED GRAND STYLE , as SAID , in a CONSCIOUS MANNER , ON PURPOSE .
its a poem
jk no ur totally right its absolutely brilliant
Seems a bit obtuse to talk about Milton as any kind of “king” since he was a committed republican and narrowly escaped with his life for his defence of the execution of Charles I.
"Every beast but knows some touch of pity." ANNE "But I know none, and therefore am no beast." RICHARD From 'Richard III' ( 1592 ) William Shakespeare ( baptized 26 / 4 / 1564 - 23 / 4 / 1616 )
The second Lady McB seduction is incredible.
Smith is great here! He's not dry at all, neither is Milton: "My self am Hell." The versus format is silly, except we get great material and performances in one setting such as this.
This was a lovely event, worth it for the acting alone, especially the remarkable rendition of the scene of Eve's awakening.
I do think the debate was played too much on Shakespeare's terms and turf, in part because Prof. Smith politely allowed it to stay there. Some thoughts:
- Biographical silence favours Shakespeare (about whom we know relatively little) than Milton, whose remarkable life positions him uniquely to speak on matters of loss, weakness, aspiration, perseverance, hatred, and love. This was hardly raised.
- So too historical context: Shakespeare comes clearly out of an Elizabethan tradition laid out in part for him by writers like Marlowe and co-developed by writers like Jonson; Milton obliterates the norms of mid-17th century poetry with a literary iconoclasm surpassed only by his republicanism.
- Drama favours interiority, and interiority here was presented as the sine qua non of literary greatness. Milton and most literary history would not have thought it so; though the actors brilliantly depicted M's dramatic imagination in Paradise Lost, his goal, unlike Shakespeare's was not primarily to explore the contours of the human mind, but to go beyond them. His theme is not finally the human, but the human-in-the-cosmos.
In short, we judged here whether Milton was better according to the criteria of Shakespeare. Shakespeare will win that battle with anyone. Milton will sooner decline your crown and force you to ask whether you're asking the right questions in the first place.
Milton wins hands down. Although I enjoy Shakespeare he was merely the led zeppelin of his time. The great cover band. Never to write an original story. Merely retelling those which came before him. Which brings to question, where did Shakespeare hear or read all these stories of court from around the world?
Shakespeare is timeless and untouchable. What I personally would like to see is Milton vs. Chaucer. THAT would be an interesting debate.
SynthesizerSounds
Why just Tolstoy? Why not Shakespeare v Dickens? or Shakespeare v George Eliot? Or Shakespeare v John Cowper Powys?
Nah, Milton and Keats: very different and equally eloquent.
But Shakespeare and Milton have more connecting them to make the comparison worthwhile. Milton and Chaucer are very different writers doing very different things. Also Milton is amazing, his heights are higher.
The Macbeth scene(s) were amazing, like nothing I've ever seen.
Whatever is their discussion, both of the poets have their own creativity and contribution in the literary field. Discussing and comparing Milton and Shakespeare is just a freak
You know what all of these brilliant actors have in common….they were all on Midsomer Murders!
Shakespeare's tone is ultimately rather boyish, and reading him (yes I know plays are meant to be heard/watched) eventually becomes wearisome.
I can read, and re-read Paradise Lost over and over, and always find something new in it. Paradise Lost never gets old. The tone of that poem feels far more mature and ultimately more serious than Shakespeare. That is only my opinion--so if I had to choose, I would pick Milton over Shakespeare.
+Adramelek Good morning from Arizona Adramelek, I am trying to write a paper that focuses on a specific instance of regional climate change. I began to look at Book IV of Paradise Lost and the text in and around "access denied". My paper focuses on aquifer and groundwater depletion. By all popular accounts, these are lesser known misunderstood geographies, but are essential for supporting arid watersheds (bubbling caverns, etc). To protect that which is less understood, a common method is to communicate pending harm in the archetypal tradition (i.e., apocalyptic heat waves, rising oceans). Do you think there is relevance in Milton's shifting characterization of nature as a means to communicate the need for adherence to a set of rules and thus avoid the great fall and its consequence? I believe Milton's description of nature that one can live within as a paradise or in the alternative, be consumed by, was very compelling in conveying and supporting his larger themes. In this aspect, he wrote with clear knowledge of the scientic model and at a time that was burgeoning in its discovery, but he also knew that human nature was guided by intuition. Apologies in advance for writing so much. Sincerely, Jim Cameron
Jim Cameron --- Do you think there is relevance in Milton's shifting characterization of nature as a means to communicate the need for adherence to a set of rules and thus avoid the great fall and its consequence?
Interesting question.
Yes, that seems to be the implication. So therefore, what exactly is the relevance?
Milton wrote; "God and Nature bid the same."
Paradise Lost book 6 175
“To whom, in brief, thus Abdiel stern replied:-
‘Apostat! still thou err’st, no end wilt find
Of erring, from the path of truth remote.
Unjustly thou deprav’st it with the name
Of servitude, to serve whom God ordains, 175
Or Nature: God and Nature bid the same,
When he who rules is worthiest, and excels
Them whom he governs.
God and Nature are union, and specifically human union between the sexes, in my opinion. The fall is a kind of internal human nature separation--living against what is really best for you, and there are all kinds of manifestations of that: drug addictions or diseases, unhealthy living...and so on.
The goal is of course to make your human nature fit the world in which you live. In harmony and all that kind of thing.
Yes, Milton possessed profound understanding--and I think this is important--Milton took the ancient Egyptian idea of creation formed from Chaos, and not ex-nihilo (out of nothing as in traditional Christianity). There is in fact, at the basis of the poem itself, a kind of primal energy that runs through everything else that happens in that universe, and it seems to be a good guide to scientific methodology as well...
I don't know how much, if anything, that helps you. Feel free to reply.
Cheers from Wisconsin.
"...reading him eventually becomes wearisome"
Only if you're a moron.
All this juicy, brainy, intellectual stuff! I can't read very well! I like McGonagall's poetry as it is easy for someone like me to understand! Love being out intellectualized by people far, far more intelligent than myself!
Which writer writes beautifully? Which writer is best creative writer?
shakespeare had a better face, but milton had those luscious locks
The Tempest. This is the literary
testament of Shakespeare 403 years later. That I have deducted in one
night. I do not know why the Shakespearean experts speak of the
island as an imaginary place, or the Bermuda Islands, and another
hypothesis. The island of The Tempest, Is England. The tests are
here. Shakespeare wanted, and prayed, for Spain to invade England,
and Catholics to be liberated. Although he feels very English. Nobody
wants to imagine that Shakespere, the most universal English, wanted
Spain to invade England, because England builds its national identity
remembering the year 1588. But this is the truth:
Precisely
because Shakespeare secretly practiced Catholicism, and his family
had been recused and impoverished, he wrote the Tempest to vent,
because of the Protestant intolerance against Catholics. It was the
last play, and he risked reprisals and left the theater. The tempest
that disperses the ships (not the English action, because later there
were more invincible navies, 2nd and 3rd, of 1596 and 1597, dispersed
by storms). But the tempest could also bring an army to rescue the
Catholics of the island. Who lives on the island of Shakespare's
Tempest? They had lived Sycorax before. Look for Sycorax in
Wikipedia, for example: "An especially odd and early guess at a
meaning by one critic was sic or rex, a Latin homophone alluding to
Queen Elizabeth's pride". Elisabeth Sycorax only appears in the
named text. She is described as a ruthless witch who has already
died. Now there is Caliban, which is a cannibal transformation.
Caliban is the son of Elisabeth (who brought Protestantism again
after the death of Maria Tudor). Protestant cannibals are "eating"
Catholics. Shakespeare is very cruel to Caliban, who is a deformed
being, "like Protestantism then?" But who lives abandoned
on that desert island of the Tempest? (It can be deserted if they
kill us all, thinks Shakespeare). Live Miranda (María Tudor),
"daugther" of Prospero, Duke of Milan (Felipe II of Spain
was Duke of Milan, and before King of England, and the great
protector of Catholicism in Europe) Who commanded the invincible army
of 1588 ?: Alonso Pérez de Guzmán (who was captain general of
Lombaría , Milan). Who commanded the navy in the text of
Shakespeare? a man named Alonso, king of Naples. Always Italy, where
the Pope is, and always Spanish territories in Italy. Who is the
greatest traitor in Spain in history? Antonio Pérez, who betrayed
Felipe II, and traveled to England to ally with Elisabeth.
Shakespeare met Antonio Pérez. Shakespare makes a caricature of
Antonio Pérez in Love's Labour Lost, called him Don Adriano de
Armado. Who is the greatest traitor in the Tempest? Antonio, who has
stolen Prospero (Felipe II) the title of Duke of Milan, has usurped
the name of Spain.
The daughter of Alonso (head of the
real and fictitious army) is called Claribel. How could Spain invade
England? Taking troops from the Netherlands, to embark them in the
army. Who was the Spanish sovereign of the Spanish Netherlands,
daughter of Philip II, king who sent the army? Isabel Clara Eugenia.
Isabel Clara Eugenia was proposed to be queen of France. The King of
France rejected the proposal, but in return he made France Catholic.
"Paris is worth a Mass". Shakespeare was thinking that this
was a solution for England, a wedding like that of Philip and Mary,
an invasion, or the solution that there was in France, to bring
Catholicism to England. In addition, Claribel comes from Tunisia,
where the uncle of Isabel Clara Eugenia, had just left the Moors
expelled from Spain by infidels. Sycorax (Elisabeth) fue expulsada de
Argel, por hacer brujería, era menos cristiana que los argelinos.
Who is the servant of Prospero and Felipe II: Ariel, the wind, who
has a childish spirit, and does not always obey Prospero. But
Prospero reminds him of Ariel, that he rescued him from Sycorax.
When? When Philip II of Spain was king of England he brought
Catholicism. So in The Tempest, Ariel brings the ships to England.
Shakespare could not go further without discovering his intention.
The text of the Tempest is full of much more subtle allusions, almost
on each page, showing the suffering and relief of Shakespare. The
text talks about the barrels of wine from Jerez (Spain) that the
fleet brings to fill the whole island, and that are hidden in a cave
(wine for Catholic Masses, which were hidden in the 17th century? )He
wanted what he thought was best for England.
What is the last sentence of the
Tempest, the farewell phrase of Shakespeare from the theaters? A
Catholic phrase.
Sorry, no contest. Shakespeare tales the cake.
Someone danced around this, but I think that Milton is most interesting to Christians.
Listening to James Shapiro speak, to my ear, he speaks with the voice of Roquefort; the mouse in the Aristocats.
I'm looking forward to more of these public debates in front audience in future once we are through this episode. So fun, so enlightening, so addictive. Thanks for sharing so many.
This should have been done in the style of a freestyle rap battle.
I think T s Elliot's over valuation of Milton has tilted the scales. But I LOVE this debate.
My TH-cam is on auto play and this video was in queue. I have zero skin in the game nor do I have any preconceived opinions or even an interest for that matter in Milton or Shakespeare. This........was........fascinating. All two hours and eleven minutes. That acting had me on the edge of my seat, I was oddly nervous for the actors, biting my nails, captivated by these performances and even the debate. Fascinating I tell you.
Sir Ian Mckellen did an adaptation of Paradise Lost for radio 4 BBC in 2 parts. It was done beautifully. It gave a wonderful representation of what it would sound like if done in play form.
Fabulously interesting for a non-English major such as myself who has just discovered Milton. The Macbeth acting was stunning but Milton is a bit like jazz...I liked that analogy.
I was an English major and glad you discovered Milton!
After 15 minutes of babble they still haven’t arrived to the subject of the video. Looooooong introductions and they still are not talking about anything.
The debate as it is argued here is really about theater versus poetry, not about Shakespeare the writer versus Milton the writer. Shakespeare's language is brilliantly poetic, but his plays are not poetry in terms of genre/form; they are drama, which has different aims, methods, and effects than poetry has. That may not matter much aesthetically, but it matters if you're trying to compare two writers who worked within very different constraints. It is not wrong to compare the two figures per se, but it really is apples and oranges. A more reasonable comparison would be Milton's poetry and Shakespeare's poetry. There Milton would be on much firmer ground; probably he would win handily. Paradise Lost against The Rape of Lucrece or Venus & Adonis? It's not a contest. Even the sonnets, with all their strange brilliance, barely stand up to Milton when they aren't buoyed by Shakespeare's godlike reputation as a dramatist. And I say this as someone who has much more familiarity with and affection for Shakespeare than Milton (like most people). It is a good talk, but it is framed bizarrely.
Matt Buchholtz: Absolutely!
A strangely minded competition - a dour Scottish Throne, the triumph of Puritanism, the English Civil War, and the mathematics leading to the birth of Calculus had changed England in a few decades out of all recognition - Science was the dominating ethos in Milton’s time - Chalk and Cheese comparing figures from an age of Reason and an age of Faith.
Milton defended liberty against the Scottish tyranny - shades of Nicola Sturgeon - in Areopagitica - but went on to abet Cromwell’s own censorship - according to ‘Hitch’.
Shakespeare reacted to politics in a different way not by argument but by affirmation: the Tempest in place of the Court masques; the Christian subtext to Timon of Athens and its implicit critique of the new king.
Shakespeare hit ‘his song’ in 1599 and it rolled for seven years until 1606.
Guess he was disgusted by the new set-up and retired back to country parts and the life of a gentle man.
Interesting that his talented daughter Susannah became friendly across the divide with Queen Henrietta - Charles the first’s wife.€
Milton presenter repeatedly says “uhm”
I guess I"m just a prose guy but I'd be inclined to pick Tolstoy as the GOAT in literature. He had all of Shakespeare's facility with (his native) language and the great advantage of exposure to an additional 400 years of human culture, including modern scientific thought, and the influence of European art, music and philosophy beginning with Goethe and LVB in the late 18th, early 19th century.
Many thanks! You have reignited my interest in Milton!
I'm intelligent.....
@Childrebel777 #CHILDREBEL777
I will be gratefull till the day I lay in my coffin, that the brittish gave us these poets ! I prefer Shakespeare, but for the sole reason that i know 3/4 of Shakespeares work, and from Milton only a couple of poems, and paradise lost ( I started with paradise lost just very recently )
You can't compare two great writers such as Milton and Shakespeare. Milton had a Puritan's type of personality and Shakespeare was far more down to earth with broader appeal. Even comparing Shakespeare with Marlowe is hard though I heard at one point that they may have collaborated. Milton's language is truly at a peak in terms of the English language.
Play Ball
I like William McGonagall best. I understand his poetry!
Milton.
No contest.
Nice discussion . But Milton and Shakespeare are not comparable like Apple and Orange.
2:08 "It's easier to play clarinet than oboe, [as] there are obstacles to reading Milton that are only going to increase" Best analogy for classics and liberal education in today's ideological minefield. So much to love in the unfolding of this debate, but 2:08 puts it succinctly. Bravi, teaching at its very best.
Shakespears*
why would you ignore Miltons republicanism and influence on political society? wow.
Intelligence Squared team, can you activate the subtitles generated automatically for your videos?
PLEASE
This is awesome, love it.
Churchill ... Churchill ...The Feuhrer could paint the pants off Churchill!
The feeling and vibration i got from watching these talented/professional actors is beyond comprehension. The works of these great writers will be taught for ages.
Chris Marlowe is cool
The Iew of Malta is a good one.
the acting in and of itself is worth the watch!
"Shakespeare is a dramatist and therefore in some ways he makes humans into important huge things. Milton is making important/huge things in a human personification." This summation, not by the scholars but an actress asked to read both authors, is exactly the distinction that has to be understood when weighing their quite distinct accomplishments. Shapiro fails to bring Shakespeare's "Venus and Adonis" or "Lucrece" into the fray, because he know that as a poet Shakespeare did not have the spoken word advantage that could be used to set the fulcrum for the measurement, notwithstanding that "Venus and Adonis" was the runaway best selling poem of its era.
I feel like these two are not as well comparable as others might be. Shakespeare wrote in a time where he was not writing for the elite, but rather the mass populace. He was pop culture. He was like Chaucer writing about romantic schemes and fart and penis jokes. It is just different. Not to mention how thoroughly can we analyze either being that we do not know how much of what they wrote was from their own mind. Some great writings of the past are based on other writings. Even a more recent (more recent than Shakespeare and Chaucer at least) Count of Monte Cristo was based on a police report. Not to mention, translations and interpretations have changed wordings and meanings to lines.
I haven't even seen the performances of the actors but the comments are exciting me so much. AHAHAHA
EDIT: YES! The actors were awesome. Also, this debate made the case of Milton for me.
I'm here again.
Here again 😂
.
Shakespeare. Shakespeare cracks dirty jokes. What is English literature without a few of them?
Shakespeare wrote in a time of The Virgin Queen: the epitome of female strength within that world. It was easy to write characters of this timbre, therefore; of strength, purpose and power - it being the fulcrum and bulwark of a nation's continuance, and one which gave him power and purpose in both artistry and exploration. Milton's descent and, arguably, exclusion of the Mother in favour of the decorative embellishment showcases a different depth, and levels and degrees of power and control, both allegorically and empirically. It is no surprise, then, in her notable absence, that he might feel Paradise Lost.
That second reading of the dialogue between Macbeth and Lady Macbeth has the vibe of Petyr Baelish and Lysa Tully...