David Rainger Blows Our Tiny Minds [Guitar FX Pedals For The Truly Adventurous!]

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 635

  • @ckturvey
    @ckturvey ปีที่แล้ว +96

    You need to get David Rainger, Graham Coxon, and Ed O'Brian on the show together. I think it would be the best 15 hours of guitar craziness ever!

    • @christurner2398
      @christurner2398 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      Now that's some logistics to organise

    • @zackstearns178
      @zackstearns178 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Sweet Mercy. There wouldn't be a dry eye in the house.

    • @MouldyGuitars
      @MouldyGuitars ปีที่แล้ว +3

      and Greg Koch

    • @Superdelphinus
      @Superdelphinus ปีที่แล้ว

      Make it happen!

  • @PintoArthur
    @PintoArthur ปีที่แล้ว +29

    This is INSANE! As a chemist I really love the idea of the minibar and I'm really thinking about buying one to even use it to teach chemistry at school!
    Btw: Salt increases the electrical conductivity of the liquid because it has free Ions, which increases the electrical conductivity. Sugar, as it's a molecular substance in general, doesn't contain free ions and don't ionize the liquid, so it conducts less electricity and thus has more gain. You can think about the liquids as a "gain drain", so, the better electrical conductor, the cleaner the signal because it's conducting the gain out of the pedal in a way.

    • @ThatPedalShow
      @ThatPedalShow  ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Love this, thank you!

    • @LykanVarion
      @LykanVarion ปีที่แล้ว +1

      So, what you're saying is, you could write a song for a 40% saline solution, a 45%, etc. :P

  • @heymrguitarman7637
    @heymrguitarman7637 ปีที่แล้ว +73

    Not sure you've had a cooler dude on the show ever. What an absolute legend of a man. Genius

  • @hybridnoisebloom
    @hybridnoisebloom ปีที่แล้ว +61

    David is thinking totally off the page, and we need more of his genius in music. Some of us have been guilty of thinking the pedal industry is saturated, nothing new is happening, it's all been done before, etc. David Rainger is proof positive that a truly creative mind can inspire us and move us forward. Wow. Mind completely blown.

  • @ChrisJones-ht9zn
    @ChrisJones-ht9zn ปีที่แล้ว +35

    This might just have been the catalyst for pulling me out of a major depression. It’s just what my soul needed. Humanity at its absolute best. Thank you

  • @hukl3945
    @hukl3945 ปีที่แล้ว +74

    It was so great to see Dan's and Mick's minds genuinely been blown ... to another dimension.

  • @__dormant__
    @__dormant__ ปีที่แล้ว +55

    When I was a little kid this is exactly what I wanted pedals to be. This is still what I want pedals to be. I'm genuinely blown away.

  • @testinguk_Admin
    @testinguk_Admin ปีที่แล้ว +75

    The world needs more of everything this episode is about. Fantastic.

  • @henrymathews2556
    @henrymathews2556 ปีที่แล้ว +36

    Loved the way Dan was completely silent at 42:10 then abruptly said "okay, sorry". I could tell he just had to experience the Drone Rainger because it was something completely new to him and he was internally going bonkers. What a pedal, but what a guy Dan is.

    • @phaedrus1117
      @phaedrus1117 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      I loved that moment where they were both holding their heads, speechless and David goes: "Is everyone ok?"

  • @ttop23
    @ttop23 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Had the pleasure of meeting David when I worked on Denmark St a few years ago. Lovely guy and undoubtedly a genius!

  • @shanef517
    @shanef517 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    One of the most interesting conversations on here. Great job all around.

  • @13thdukeofwybourne
    @13thdukeofwybourne ปีที่แล้ว +30

    Wow. There’s more creativity and uniqueness in just these 6 pedals from David than in the 1000s of pedals made by all the big name pedal companies for 30 years. So many shake your head and smile moments in this. What a star. Great stuff David.

  • @chrisdrake447
    @chrisdrake447 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Gawd bless and sustain the great British eccentric - what a joy to have this man and his pedals in the world.

  • @TheOdditee
    @TheOdditee ปีที่แล้ว +14

    Dan nailed it, “It’s thinking about sound in a different way.” Absolutely! Really cool.

  • @Subropontes
    @Subropontes ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Absolutely nothing in the world would make me happier than watching David Rainger sitting in a studio with Graham Coxon just having coffee, talking and playing with gear.

  • @admarhermans1
    @admarhermans1 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    That ‘drone/delay’ is so beautiful, so therapeutic in a way. I want that. All for myself. Make my own little album and be calm and happy and mindfull. 😉

  • @andreweasombentley4703
    @andreweasombentley4703 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    David reminds me of one of the pioneering lab-coated early producer / engineers of the mid 60’s who came up with all the classic effects we all know BUT at exactly the same time it’s like he’s from the future. What an inspiring dude

  • @WharfRat4
    @WharfRat4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    They say that genius and madness are separated by a hair's width. I'm not quite sure what side of that line David's on, but I love his creativity.
    I can see myslf at my next open mike night "A pint of lager for myself and a port and brandy for the pedal please?"

  • @LysanderLH
    @LysanderLH ปีที่แล้ว +5

    I hope his sales go through the roof for this. Truly innovative and original. I’d mount them on a board and let members of the audience have goes on them while I played.

  • @mob0274
    @mob0274 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Every other guitar gear channel - 'ToneX vs Kemper'
    That Pedal Show - 'Hold my beer. Here's something different.'

  • @JimmyGallowayGuitar
    @JimmyGallowayGuitar ปีที่แล้ว +19

    This guy is a legend. I don't own any of his yet, but I'm super fascinated with his entire ethos

  • @johncard2564
    @johncard2564 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    The flanger x on the rocket setting is one of those subtle “always on pedals” in my opinion

  • @Angus.Maclean
    @Angus.Maclean ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Pedals that sound great yet different at whatever settings is much more inspirational than set-and-forget single good sound setting pedals.

  • @justinmarrington8039
    @justinmarrington8039 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    As a dork, I want to say this: vegetable oils in *general* are pretty poor electrical conductors, and olive oil is particularly electrically insulating. So no surprise it makes no noise in the Minibar :D
    As an honorary Scot I want to say this: watching Mick down the leftover whisky rather than throwing it down the sink was the right choice.

  • @SeanJWestcott
    @SeanJWestcott ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Saw the episode, bought the pedal (MiniBar) and it is just awesomely bonkers … single malt is my favourite so far … big smile and laughing my head off as I try everything in the fridge … but it makes so much sense … playing blues … add whisky … pub rock … add beer … jazz … red wine ? Thanks you David, a creative legend

    • @ThatPedalShow
      @ThatPedalShow  ปีที่แล้ว

      Ha! Awesome, nice one Sean! We reckon access to that different headspace is truly priceless!

  • @allidoisplay
    @allidoisplay ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Frost Blue Metallic S2 Studio ❤️❤️❤️🔥🔥🔥

  • @adamscottv
    @adamscottv ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Video needs a Love button. Like isn't quite enough.

  • @thomascooke7640
    @thomascooke7640 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    1:02:58. That look says it all. Rarely are both of you totally silent.
    One of the best episodes yet. Keep up the great stuff D&M!

  • @rprieto1971
    @rprieto1971 ปีที่แล้ว +20

    Some F’d up great creations. Protect him at all costs

  • @flyguyty33
    @flyguyty33 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I’m so happy. Thank you for this

  • @paulburton5150
    @paulburton5150 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    David is such a creative guy. A true mad scientist. A Carackticus Potts of the guitar world. His feet on the ground and his head in the clouds. A sound guy in every sense

  • @davidsummerville351
    @davidsummerville351 ปีที่แล้ว +21

    This is incredible! A whole new concept of pedal design, visually, internally and engineering process. Very intelligent human being. One of your best episodes ever. THANKS!

  • @freitopolis
    @freitopolis ปีที่แล้ว +2

    His enthusiasm is infectious. A brilliant mad genius.

    • @freitopolis
      @freitopolis ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @BUNFIGHT SPECIALIST 👃 👃 I smell frustrated troll

  • @jeffgreen4903
    @jeffgreen4903 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Holy amazing Flanger!!! That was so cool.

  • @HAIRYBIKER777
    @HAIRYBIKER777 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    What a lovely bloke, and what a mind. Funny too - you could drop him straight into Spinal Tap or Wayne's World. He's like Sean Lock's happier brother.

  • @markv1006
    @markv1006 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I think the comment on why they're laughing is perfect. The entire episode I was giddy, but not because I was excited, it was because I could feel my flow state being inspired by the sheer creativity in these pedals. I want weirder pedals not because I want to be weird, but because it's what the future of music is

  • @docnu5757
    @docnu5757 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    What an absolute breath of fresh air. Thank you, David.

  • @geoffknot
    @geoffknot ปีที่แล้ว +1

    whoa! thank you! DRainger and crew are amazing!

  • @MrMystery666
    @MrMystery666 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Please please find all the cool uk pedal builders and bring them in and do this (I know you’ve done thorpy and one or two other). This type of show is absolutely phenomenal and we need more.

  • @ronlight7013
    @ronlight7013 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    David Rainger’s the shot in the arm this show’s been needing! I wrote about the FREAKENSTEIN pedal as exhibited in Pedal Culture.

  • @Flyingcybersec
    @Flyingcybersec ปีที่แล้ว +14

    This is the most fun I’ve had watching this show in a LONG time. I laughed and wished I was talented enough to make this work.

  • @andresgaron
    @andresgaron ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I click the like button just after Micks comment about having a Rhythm pedal on the board. Fun Fun Fun. Love TPS got weird with Rainger Fx.

  • @phaedrus1117
    @phaedrus1117 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    What a completely delightful person.
    Also the entire concept of "I'm interested in this, so I'm going to read books and just try until I know how to do the thing I want to do." is just brilliant.
    "Often, the way forward is to do the wrong thing." - Yeah, that's going into my journal.
    Great episode.

  • @simonsmith9942
    @simonsmith9942 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    That’s the best Flanger I’ve ever heard. Buying one. What a great episode!!!!

  • @austinbridge
    @austinbridge ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Daivd Rainger is a genius. Much needed diversity in a world of digital reverb and delay units. In a market full of OD and Distortion. Almost all copies of copies of copied circuits.
    Rainger pedals are so incredibly unique and creative. They make you reframe your perspective on music and sound.

    • @TheAmazingSnarf
      @TheAmazingSnarf ปีที่แล้ว +1

      i'm in full agreement with you. I've lived with the Drone Rainger on my desk for a couple of years now, and i can tell you, with complete honesty, that having something like this tech at my fingertips has absolutely changed the way that i approach both sound design exploration and recording. having the ability to send an instant, pitched analog oscillation through whatever effect that i'm actively working on learning is ...well, orders of magnitude above whatever i was doing previously.
      Today's Drone Rainger signal chain: DR > MXR 10 > Tera Echo > SL2 > RT20. whoa

  • @Frettedchaos
    @Frettedchaos ปีที่แล้ว +5

    David has a beautiful mind. What an original and innovative builder. Taking pedals in a new direction where the pedals themselves are unique instruments to be explored. Just wow. ❤

  • @leftchicago
    @leftchicago ปีที่แล้ว +22

    This was great. I can't even conceive of an imagination anywhere near to David's.

  • @Yupppi
    @Yupppi ปีที่แล้ว +5

    This man is just crazy. In the best kind of way. He never got the note "you can't do that" so he just did it. Even if you don't have a need for any of his pedals, you can't go "that's stupid, it doesn't have any value". It makes you imagine all the possibilities just by seeing and hearing it.
    Those old oil can tremolos worked with the liquid floating from side to side and either blocking or unblocking the sensor.

  • @pd4165
    @pd4165 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Possibly the best episode ever - Dave R explained his left field inventions in a way that was understandable by idiots like me ( and Mick n Dan) - before this they were 'mad crap' which made no sense. Now I want.
    Obviously not for your average pub gig - the land where mediocrity rules - but when you want to play something new this is a wonderful place.
    Next stop - fly in Fairfield Circuitry to explain their DIY ethic and bonkers sounds. C'mon FC we need to know what makes you tick.

  • @pauleddy5146
    @pauleddy5146 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Well sir, basically no words. The possibilities are endless . . . Ohm drone in the background all day seems a bit excessive, but if it takes you where you want to go? A few snippets made me realize that I don't have to actually be a technically proficient player. With a little play time, basic chord progressions, experimentation and whimsy, a backing track could be made to support a technically proficient player! 😏 Oh and the best part, fun could be had for days on end . . .

  • @PG-ex3kl
    @PG-ex3kl ปีที่แล้ว +2

    What a cool dude! Thinking inside and outside of the rhomboid shaped box!

  • @aorsoul...7532
    @aorsoul...7532 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    I have never smiled so much in my life. Wonderful show! Thank you!

  • @dustingmyguitars
    @dustingmyguitars ปีที่แล้ว +4

    This is 100 percent my favorite episode of tps

  • @ScottfromBaltimore
    @ScottfromBaltimore ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Utterly bonkers ideas that actually work. I'm amazed.

  • @kasakka
    @kasakka ปีที่แล้ว +3

    This might be one of the best TPS videos in a while! Also kudos to Rainger for making all these wild pedals. Even if I find it a bit tough to find a use for this stuff, I still hope others do and use them in musical ways because it's innovation like this that we need more in the pedal world.

  • @spharr
    @spharr ปีที่แล้ว +5

    The idea that you could actually hear the tone of blood sweat and tears with the mini bar is crazy

  • @rabkennedy5312
    @rabkennedy5312 ปีที่แล้ว +38

    In tonights show,
    Mick has a whisky and coke,
    Dan becomes a DJ,
    And a mad man brings in some pedals!

  • @wildbill7
    @wildbill7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Highlight of my weekend RIGHT HERE!!!! So, soooo good.

  • @petergoddard1960
    @petergoddard1960 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The world is a better place for having David Rainger in it. If your creativity wants to go all cosmik, or destructiv or just somewhere no one has been, here is how you do it. Invent a journey and fuck with the soundtrack. Never forget to press record.

  • @oliverhutton3199
    @oliverhutton3199 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Inspiring. 1:06:10 'can you turn the jet plane off?' I love how effortlessly David invites us into his mindset :) This is frontier tone building, a-la early 60s, meted with 21st Century (TPS) pragmatism. Keep up your stella work gents.

  • @danialollis9200
    @danialollis9200 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Nice work lads, labelling the 11min time snap in tribute to the mighty Jon Spencer Blues Explosion. Those who know, know that "The blues is number 1"

    • @ThatPedalShow
      @ThatPedalShow  ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Take a whiff of my pant leg baby!

  • @RyanM81
    @RyanM81 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    The phrase "mind blowing" has been used a lot here and for good reason. Just looking at the wall behind Mick & Dan, in every video, you get a glimpse of just how many guitar pedals are out there. And most fall into pretty well defined categories.
    David has turned up with not one, but six(!!!) completely unique & extraordinary pedals. And as bonkers as the concepts are, they sound great and seem to be fairly intuitive to use. Not to mention the striking looks. He is literally nailing it from every angle.
    (I studied chemistry at uni and I just love how the mini bar effectively uses a science experiment as the tone/gain control.)

  • @garyrose5211
    @garyrose5211 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Truly "Way out and toilets" moments. Fantastic creative sounds. Great inspirational show. Far out.

  • @1967clem
    @1967clem ปีที่แล้ว +2

    When the 'mad professor' makes pedals and you get joyous results....!

  • @johnny.musician
    @johnny.musician ปีที่แล้ว +2

    At the risk of repeating other’s’ comments, mind blown. Wonderful tones and flexibility!

  • @macsarcule
    @macsarcule 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    David Rainger is the sort of human we should all aspire to. What an awesome person!!!

  • @karllongbottomguitars9192
    @karllongbottomguitars9192 ปีที่แล้ว

    David Rainger is, without doubt, a genius .
    One of the most interesting/inspirational episodes , bravo 👏

  • @rhesreeves5339
    @rhesreeves5339 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Just Great TPS team (everyone!) I love pedals that inspire me by doing unusual things and I've not seen any better at capturing my imagination than these Rainger effects. You "play the pedal" as much as the guitar and the amp now. Maybe my favorite episode yet.

  • @jonathananderson3897
    @jonathananderson3897 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    This is the best thing on the Internet ever. I can totally see radiohead making great use of all these things. Just wow, kudos to dave, you just wiped the floor with several multimillion dollar empires in terms of creativity. This is innovation at its finest

  • @stevereid5944
    @stevereid5944 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    What an amazing dude , so creative , eloquent and mad but educated and self taught . Great Britain needs more of this . A very 1960s attitude . Love the pedals 🙌

  • @elliotthall5543
    @elliotthall5543 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Top Five episode. Going to watch it a second time. Awesome!

  • @kcole4001
    @kcole4001 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Absolutely brilliant!
    One of the things I love most is hearing players who use effects outside of their usual parameters, though I have noticed it doesn't always resonate with the majority of other musicians in an audience.
    In a way David makes creating soundscapes easier for those of us with more limited imaginations --- he's combined many of the tools already rather than having to work out that what to use ourselves.
    And in checking That Pedal Shop, the Rainger FX prices are not at all expensive. Kind of under the radar.
    Wildly creative designs, certainly not for everyone though they can fulfill the standard functions of similar effects while offering a literally mind boggling scope for interpretation and experimentation.
    A stunningly outside the box approach to sonic manipulation is how I'd describe the Rainger FX gift to creators of sound.

  • @donaldryder5534
    @donaldryder5534 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    the world needs more David Raingers!

  • @AndyDemos
    @AndyDemos ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Haha!! That’s Blues Explosion moment was just too good! 👊😎

  • @banjo7598
    @banjo7598 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    OH MY GOD!!! Please god more of this content. TPS leading the way in contrast to the millions of pedal reviews of the “newest” tube screamer/Klon/. Bloody marvellous stuff lads! Well done!

  • @andsoistopped
    @andsoistopped ปีที่แล้ว +2

    It’s not another tubescreamer. Thank goodness for that! Oh how the world is improved by the likes of Mr Grainger.

  • @bryanh3057
    @bryanh3057 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Honestly, we have officially met the Eddie Van Halen and Les Paul of effects pedals. He’s totally chasing those sounds he’s hearing in his head and making them happen in much the same way. Love it! 🤘

  • @dustinthiessen
    @dustinthiessen ปีที่แล้ว +3

    holy crap! I think I need this whole rainge of pedals

  • @Andy_Yates
    @Andy_Yates ปีที่แล้ว +5

    This was simply terrific. The joy and awe from you guys as we heard the sounds brought me joy as well. I don't think Rainger pedals have made more sense than they have here. Having the man himself explain his inspiration and hearing it come to life was just awesome 😁

  • @littleninpo
    @littleninpo ปีที่แล้ว +2

    What an absolute pleasure that was to watch. For me this has been the best pedal vid I’ve ever seen. Made want to get my credit card out. Incomparable to anything I’ve seen. The gentrification of the circuit board left me speechless. 😂😂😂What an artist David is. Incredible.

  • @taylormoon3561
    @taylormoon3561 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I’ve never seen Dan this giddy, and I’m right there with him.

  • @mickylicky5265
    @mickylicky5265 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    OMG!....flabbergasted....and to see Dan & Mick so incredulous is really going some....this was just so much fun!....unbelievably creative....

  • @brandt69420
    @brandt69420 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Best episode ever...instead of "lets discuss the minute and imperceptible in a live situation, differences between 4 pedals trying to do the same thing"....this is a total exploration into new sounds and ideas, the very foundation in which music is supposed to be built. If David Gilmour had these pedals he would have changed music forever...we need more creative people in music instead of thousands of copy's of the same thing over and over. Hopefully someone takes there new ideas and creates music that will lead us into new territory, we've been playing recycled licks with the same tones for waaay too long.

  • @seagers_studio
    @seagers_studio ปีที่แล้ว +2

    "...If I have sake and soy sauce in there I think I play differently than when there's washing up liquid in there" - David Rainger, the Salvador Dali of pedals.

  • @DanForrestal
    @DanForrestal ปีที่แล้ว +1

    This is the most glorious madness.

  • @alannedelec2714
    @alannedelec2714 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    The most amazing pedal review I have ever seen on the internet. Each of these pedals was blowing me away. Thank you Dan and Mick. And hat off for Mr Granger.

  • @michaela9817
    @michaela9817 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Love to have my boundaries expanded by the creative genius of people like David!

  • @b0000kify
    @b0000kify ปีที่แล้ว

    we're lucky to have Rainger out there doing Rainger things

  • @andsoistopped
    @andsoistopped ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Oh yes.
    I think having builders on is a fabulous idea.
    I would highly recommend getting Phil on from Bleak District Electric. A wonderful human who is coming up with some fantastic pedals. Check out the Antistatic and the Rec Head for starters.
    I think as far as emerging British Pedal makers go he is well and truly up there.

  • @Pandamasque
    @Pandamasque ปีที่แล้ว +1

    45:43 YES! In the Light is exactly what I thought of as soon as David began demoing the pedal! Nailed that feel!

  • @ChanceCooper125
    @ChanceCooper125 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    These pedals are incredible. Love the designs too. They look like what guitar pedals would look like in the Borderlands video games

    • @kwyatt261
      @kwyatt261 ปีที่แล้ว

      You're so right

  • @jt3483
    @jt3483 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I wasn't sure what to expect because, in all honesty, I didn't really "like" any of the Rainger pedals from demos before.
    This is one of your best videos ever, especially featuring a pedal builder. David is truly inspiring, his ideas are incredibly creative, and NOW his pedals make sense to me.
    Very very cool

  • @soulassasin10
    @soulassasin10 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Holy hell lads that was an epic show 😳😱🤯 David is a freaking genius 🔥🔥🔥🤘🤘🎛️

  • @rjroth4869
    @rjroth4869 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    For me, as a child of the 60's, Mick's "What a trip!" comment was perfect for this episode.

  • @jeremyanderson4956
    @jeremyanderson4956 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I saw this dudes pedal advertised on a forum back in the 2000's. I thought it looked super Interesting but I think he was only making batches...
    Now I really want his pedals to blend with Deep Trip pedals. 🫨

  • @mowjo9517
    @mowjo9517 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Not bored by pedals anymore! This is brilliant, and so creative! David you are a genious, and thank you That Pedal Show for the discovery!

  • @robtoc
    @robtoc ปีที่แล้ว +2

    This content was so much fun! Well done gentlemen!!

  • @burresseffects
    @burresseffects ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Been waiting years for this episode.

  • @moxy1972
    @moxy1972 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I could listen to David talk all day. What a character and what brilliant pedals! Great show guys👌

  • @caro_lam
    @caro_lam ปีที่แล้ว +3

    FYI: The chapter should say 'Whisky in the Minibar' instead of 'Whiskey in the Minibar' since Aberfeldy is a Scotch whisky as opposed to an Irish or American whiskey. The E is very important!