Part of the issue with saying: "If you don't want to be punished by Dockside, look at your deckbuilding" is that you are not the only person who can feed a Dockside. It isn't surprising that people choose not to knee cap themselves by not taking advantage of Artifact ramp because even if they do they still get punished when the RogSi player next to you vomitted out 6 Artifacts on turn 1.
This. I had just a Sapphire Medallion and Sol Ring out turn 5+ and the Dockside player still got 7+ treasures because it hits all players and it hits off enchantments. Just get rid of this card already, it does way too much for 1R, and you getting hits off all players is just awful. IDC about Bowmasters, it hasn't impacted us and sees play in the higher-level pods, while DE is all over the place. And...Dockside hasn't dropped in price much, so if the green light is there for its safety, then mass-print it at R in a Standard set or something and be done with it.
It's the same deal as "tempting offer" spells. It would be better not to feed it, but it's bad to slow yourself compared to those who take the deal/use brown ramp.
Yeah a lot of people use that type of argument not realizing it's always false, especially in a societal context. Things massively adopted by other people negate whether YOU adopt it or not. You'll still be affected by it. Ban dockside and don't look back.
@@pierredupont1096 It's awful because it punishes people who run land hate like blood moon, it makes 5 color blue soup decks very hard to punish as they circumvent the downside of cards like blood moon, it makes those 5 color decks even more color greedy, and yet people will argue that it's healthy for the format and goes infinite like a ham sandwich?
My take on the dockside argument is that the fast artifact mana is just so excessively powerful that feeding a dockside or any other downside will never be enough of a deterrent to cut cards like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Jeweled lotus, mox diamond etc.
I've taken to saying "I'm adding it to the book" after I get blown out by Bowmasters after specifically tooling my deck to play around it, in reference to a supposed book I'm writing on why Bowmasters is terrible for the format and should be banned. I really, REALLY want to thank you for going ahead and publishing that book for me. Saved me a lot of effort
Mystic remora is not as bad as Rhystic in a lot of situations. Dies easier to mental misstep and players stuck under paying for remora can easily be screwed over if the other players are responsible. It’s really more toxic later in the game when you have enough mana to pay the upkeeps
Overall totally agree with bowmaster ban. Creature decks have to take the collateral damage of cards like Rhystic even when they’re not the ones drawing.
Right but it's where people go turn 1 land > sol ring > arcane signet > mystic remora That puts you into a lose lose scenario where the person who did that can just keep paying for remora for a very long time and still progress their board state. Playing into it draws them so many cards, not playing into it means that your board states is so far behind that you'll likely lose the game if you don't play into it. It really offers the illusion of choice that no matter what you do you're basically going to get the same result as you'll lose the game. Obviously mana dork decks get around that but not every deck has green in their colors.
@@reuvan16 I would ban these 5 cards 1 Dockside 2 Mana Crypt 3 Sol Ring 4 Nadu 5 Thassa's Oracle If I could only ban 1 card it would be Dockside Without mana crypt and sol ring mystic and rhystic wouldn't be problematic anymore, as people would not be able to turbo them out turn 1 and have a massive mana advantage. Dockside just makes it impossible to effectively punish 5 color blue soup greedy decks. Nadu punishes interaction and forces you to use removal spells on their untappers. It is really awful for the game Thassa's Oracle is the least ban worthy card out of all of them since it's only purpose is to win the game. Thassa is a problem because it makes blue soup objectively the best deck because the win condition is the most efficient and hardest to interact with as well. If I could only ban 1 card it would be Dockside as land punisher cards like blood moon would return to the game and would make the meta less homogeneous.
I appreciate the conversation, 10 min in so we'll see. My opinion as a 60 card plus limited player who casually grinds for tournaments and has only been on cEDH for less than a year is this. cEDH is a huge format gaining attention with every new set. A separate ban list doesn't seem like the right move. Rule 0 and those in charge of the banned list currently can take care of casual as usual. I would appreciate it if more attention was publicly put on cEDH in terms of banning and unbanning cards. The health and variety of a competitive format makes more sense than policing casual tables and casual online pods. Rule 0 and the power level of casual can absolutely absorb the uncomfortable impact of this type of change. Pushed cards will continue to be a thing but having more competitive minded magic lovers making decisions specifically for the competitive side of this format would be a step closer. I appreciate your opinions about bans and personally agree that bowmasters is an issue. I also would like to see the long term demolition of the reserved list or the renaming of old cards with new I.P. Duals from another Jurassic Park set please and thank you. Or some snow duals from the new universe's beyond frozen / Disney set. Candelabra dropped down to a 200$ card? " Let It Go!" That's my 2 cents and with inflation it's worth nada.
Part of the original Reserve List published agreement was that WotC would not print mechanically identical cards to the RL cards, so Jurassic Park flavored duals would only be possible if the RL was thrown out. WotC has come close (see Shocks vs Duals, the new Drake from MH3 vs Gilded Drake) but there's mechanical differences that make the newer cards either strictly or arguably worse than the original RL versions.
I think in the dockside discussion youre both right. There are all the strategies Ian mentioned that dont see play because of it, but at the same time artifact ramp and various low cmc enchantments are just too good to pass up. I think a similar comparison is nonbasic lands' relation with bloodmoon: The opportunity cost of not playing nonbasics is too steep to care about the threat of bloodmoon. Maybe not completely analagous but there is similarity. Also with cards like gifts ungiven, sylvan primordial, primetime, etc, i think the RC's worry is that the accessibilty of those cards would upset the casual space more than similar cards that aren't banned because those similar legal cards are generally more expensive. Its kinda like this weird counterintuitive thing where unbanning a card that already has a strictly better yet more expensive unbanned counterpart can raise the average powerlevel of casual more than the unbanned one does, simply because of price/availibilty/reprints.
Also if you’re playing against a dockside deck… ie… korvold or sisay… don’t feed dockside. It forces you to play slower or you just lose. We have insane artifacts and enchantments… there is NOTHING in the format to even make you think about not playing them besides dockside….
That is not true, mass artifact destruction did make people think about that before dockside existed. Dockside is problematic, 5 color blue soup decks are incredibly hard to punish as blood moon is ineffective and it goes infinite like a ham sandwich. The card is not healthy for the game.
20:19 PrimeTime is real close for me, cuz you get that and, say, a kitten down and that gets out of hand FAST, especially if you have Derevi as a commander…I dunno, that’s close for me
I don’t think bowmasters provides anywhere near the advantage dockside produces. Biggest thing is bowmasters aren’t a problem in casual edh but dockside is a problem in both casual and cedh. Bowmasters is deff a drag but it only punishes others players advantage rather than producing advantage besides the orc army which is never the issue.
A card that was supposed to punish fast mana/treasure creation/artifacts, and, surprise, didn't meet the mark, was the card Charismatic Conqueror. The newest squirrel from bloomburrow is a little more on brand with doing that for treasures but it doesnt punish fast mana in the slightest. The Fire design gods have spoken. Time to powercreep my dude OUPHE. LET'EM EAT.
The three cards I was most excited to hear hot takes on weren’t even mentioned: Griselbrand, Recurring Nightmare, and Rofellos. Still, great show as always.
I find it revealing how often decks come up on the power rankings episode and the pod in general that "in spite of a bowmasters world are still doing well" that speaks to me of a normal integration of a card into a format and not it being bad for it personally. I don't think it is easy to square the amount bowmasters is supposed to be oppressive with how well magda does currently as an example.
if there were to be a separate ban list id rather it be like a seasonal thing (akin to something like how pokemon games run their competitive format) so we could see what these formats would look like without slamming the ban hammer, that way you could test other things like what does a meta without partner look like, without fracturing the format as a whole.
One fun thing, and this only works in brawl, so probably won't work in CEDH, the new nantuku, pay two men to make a copy, and primeval Titan work together extremely well. I mean it would be nice to have something on the board to untap them, but you know clear out your whole deck turn for turn five. Which isn't that bad, it's easily rectified by a single stifle or anything else but you know it's neat I like it
I’m not for having a separate banned list, however, I think that the CAG is a big part that, say, the top 200 players could say the things like Ian said where “hey Bowmasters is gonna wreck this and warp the format” and here we are, so if there was another impartial group that’s involved, or add 2 cEDH to the CAG and go from there, but again, I don’t think it’s a good idea to separate the banned list
Can't believe I'm saying this, but I share Cal's ultimate opinion. Dockside is the great equalizer, it helps keep you in the game when you fall behind and breaks open games that are starting to stall. OBM incongruently punishes players that are NOT feeding into it, which is stupid AF. And Primeval Titan is a lot of people's favorite card (myself included) and really doesn't do all that much, even in casual games.
i think the issue with lurti is less that it makes not playing U/R wrong, and more that it means that it is just wrong to ever play a deck that has U/R and does not play lutri as a companion.
I play in a no-proxy meta, and lately what I have noticed is that Dockside is almost not good in my meta. We don't have a lot of Crypts and Moxen, so my Tymna/Jeska deck has focused more on Worldgorger or Abdel Adrian combos more than Dockside/Cthulean Nightmare. I often look at the table and see that I can't break even. Granted, it's a weird meta, but it makes me feel like Dockside is more fair than we often talk about.
Unfortunately your meta is not representative of the cedh meta at large. Most tournaments are proxyfriendly, so everyone can be on all fast mana available, making dockside +4 in the worst situations and +8 in a good situation.
"Hey buddy, I see you are getting lethal swung at you. You can watch us play casual edh for an hour or i can gifts ungiven and you can give me both pieces of my combo" :)
I had a thought a while back that might be interesting to try for edh/cedh. Instead of just banning these carss like dockside and bowmasters, we steal the points method from canadian highlander. And its obviously still gonna have the same issue as the seperate ban list, but it might be at least interesting to try
I really think that we don't have to ban dockside if we just ban fast mana. I believe that fast mana disproportionately help the best decks. I think if the RC banned Crypt, all moxes, vault, monolith, petal, jeweled lotus I believe we would A. See more diversity and B. Less need for bans like dockside and thoracle maybe still ban bowmasters
Here’s the thing casual is such a free for all environment where depending on your playgroup you can play with banned cards and self regulate. We could curve the banned list for cEDH and stuff that makes casual miserable because people will still be able to play with those cards if they really want to. Loved the video I love these looser videos which are few and far between because a set comes out every week
Wizards is currently maintaining banned as commander and banned overall for duel commander; so it’s definitely possible, but they aren’t doing it. 40:23 I also agree dockside is not a punisher card. It does not punish the player playing artifacts in a manner that hurts just them. It also doesn’t discourage people from playing artifacts and enchantments at the deck-building level. The format is still out here playing as much fast mana as they can and playing clones to take advantage of the dockside they are actively feeding.
I don't think that creating a separate banlist is creating a new subformat when the RC continuously hides behind rule 0. Creating a separate banlist is actually in the spirit of the format because it is to balance and promote the most positive play experience at the highest power level.
In all honesty though, I would rather see more unban than bans to fix the format. There are a lot of toys in the bin that we haven't tested and it would be a nice change of pace
I think Cal is right if with creating 2 lists. If they added a second ban list 90% of the Cedh cards would need to be banned and no one would want to play that. I think despite complaining about Bow Masters they never explained in a specific way why it should be banned like the RC does with all of its bannings. Yes its great but how does it effect deck building and how does it push decks out of the format. I get that it kills creatures but what strategies and decks are just gone? I play a ton of magda and every creature in that deck dies to bowmasters and it does fine. I love how good bowmasters deals with creature stax peices and how you can politic between players to kill a dranith or a ouphe. Plus bow Masters on board with someone else's rhystic can stop abolishers in their tracks.
Gifts Ungiven is a very powerful card. It’s significantly better than intuition. Every savinne’s/Breach combo deck would get so much better with Gifts Ungiven. On Sylvan Primordial/Primeval Titan, both lead to very unhealthy play patterns in casual, and specifically blinking or copying Sylvan Primordial is simply a way to just close out all the mana bases. It’s funny that Cal is talking about Sundering Titan. My thing is the RC has signpost bans and there are commanders who clearly fall into those patterns or others, such as Kinnan and Nadu. I just ask for the committee to have consistency on what they say. If I was to have my way, which is about condensing and staying true to the RC’a philosophy… Ban- Kinnan ban - Nadu Ban - Dockside ban - OBM, ban - Rhystic ban - TOR. Unban Bioryrhm, Coalituon Victiry.
Im pretty new to cedh (post lotr) how did bowmaster warp the format by punishing creature decks? I get that it kills most cheap mana dorks in green but doesnt it also puts pressure on bluefarm decks when they want to draw alot?
It can put pressure on them, but doesn't have to. The idea that I can cast a bowmaster in response to seat 1's wheel (or whatever draw spell/effect) and kill seat 3/4's creatures/board is the issue.
You said you have to make sacrifices to stop enchantments do the same for creatures just kill the bow masters don't let it sit there and keep pinging yes it can etb and kill something then cast some removal and deal
I think there is an argument to be made that they should unban the moxen and black lotus can be unbanned so we can be a vintage-like format, or ban mana crypth and sol ring an be legacy-like format
@@SkillIssue60 My friend and I have had pretty good success. Would i say strong, no. You're mono-green, so you take a bit of brewers advantage, but you win with land combos so it is extremely difficult to interact with the wins.
I don't know, a rotating band list one that changes per year taking things off adding things on, would at least be an interesting deck building challenge. I understand that it is meant to be the most powerful format, but if it is so solved already you just see the same cards for years on end. There's got to be a middle way
Here’s an easy question and answer…does the rules committee ban based on the competitive level of a card or how much fun the casual players are having? That answer is your answer if cedh and edh should be different formats
Conquest is what most casuals wish EDH was. It's fun casually and gets rid of a bunch of cards casuals dislike. Also as someone who lived through the dual commander schism you do not want that for cEDH. We had a small group of four that fractured because of the change. I can't imagine what it would do to the tournament scene.
banned as commander / total banned/ etc. the one time i agree with C is leovold can come off. but it needs to not be a commander ... Dockside is a scaler card. the more fast mana/ench the better it gets
What do you think of Tournament EDH running more like 1v1 magic where there is no free mulligan (for anyone) and Player 1 does not draw on the first turn? Do you think this would this help alleviate issues with win percentage based on turn order? As a note, I understand that removing the free mulligan would be universal, impacting all players, not just P1. I included it as cEDH decks are a lot more consistent in general than casual, so we should not need the "crutch" as much, especially in a tournament setting. (Also understanding that cEDH is not as consistent as 60 card) Spoiler alert: Interstellar sucks. It is an absolute waste of time... (Please pardon the pun)
Cal, not only did you make your point very eloquently the first time around re whether Dockside is a deterrent to artifact ramp, etc., I'm totally in agreement with you and I think Ian is incorrect on this point. Ian thinking the reason people don't play Enchantress in cEDH is that Dockside deters it is ridiculous! Cal, you're definitely correct that Dockside and Rhystic Study don't *punish* the opponent for artifact ramp/spells; rather, they are *parasitic* cards. And as was the case with Flash, the best answer to an opponent's Dockside, etc., is to be playing your own. Never thought I'd see the day where'd be wholeheartedly on Team Cal in a debate!!!!
I am the fan of Rhystic ban purely because I hate the "do you pay the 1?" for every single spell in the game. Power level aside I find it so annoying I'd rather not.
Before I lost my hair from old age, I used to have a mohawk and my wife’s a hairstylist and used to colour it different colors. It was $&@%ing wild man.
A seperate banlist would 100 percent valid. It doesnt make sense to have a comittee that makes a banlist decision to help casuals... but also not go far enough in certain areas FOR THE CASUALS. so weird that edh is apparantly not competetive enough to ban Thassas oracle.... but well ban stuff like golos. When in CEDH... Golos would prolly be trash. IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE. Well ban a card that if you do a condition you win the game... but again... thasas oracle stays? And its easier to win woth? Just let CEDH be broken but for regular edh players... give them an actual banlist that is made to let edh be a fun environment. I hate the argument if "CEDH and edh are the same format" cause its really not. If it was so similar then you should just play your regular decks against Cedh with no issues. Just make them seperate. They are already seperate based on power level. Why not?
I would be interested to know how much cEDH the average person calling for a thoracle ban plays. I don’t know any of these people myself, I don’t even know if they’re real or a straw man, but the suggestion sounds a lot like the view of someone who is consuming cEDH content online but not actually playing it. Basically it sounds like a complaint/criticism stemming from a desire to see novel wins, which is definitely a consumer mindset and not a player mindset imo.
Bow, thor and rhystic is my recipe for bans. Thor makes naus decks have bad pivots. Storm hate gets a lot better. Bow makes playing to the board stronger. Also buffing hate pieces vs storm. Rhystic ... everyone hates rhysitc. Get that shit out of here
I think it would be possible for large TO’s to make a unified banned list. Wizards is not going to support cEDH in its current iteration; so why are cEDH events even abiding by their banned list? Wizards is going to keep dumping un-sets and cards that are issues into the format and until a split is made you just eat the slop. If they choose to ban partners, nadu, and large problematic cards; do you just stay put? What if they do unban flash? Just hang out and keep eating the slop?
Edh and cEDH are the SAME format you can't have separate banned lists.... However more guidance as to what makes something cEDH over a high power would help (sort of like the rule zeros the rc is doing with silver borders)
Do we need more guidance? cEDH is 100% focussed on winning without any compromises when it comes to feelings of your opponents or the budget for your deck. Best-in-slot cards > letting your opponent do „their thing“
@@dawddwadwa5775 the cEDH meta as a whole.... No... But more on those filthy casual players lol.... Everyone wants to "win" their game and if I'm putting together a rube Goldberg combo but lose to a normal "cEDH" style combo this isn't fun..... I love losing to a holy crap you just pulled this off (in casual) way more than someone dropping a thousand mana positive rocks and drawing a deck and wining with lab man or thassa..... I mean I have a high mana dino deck that I tossed dockside in (and cthonian nightmare ) for flavor (no way to tutor) and feel bad if I combo off early... Unless I'm trying to make an "exhibition" for maybe some new players showing things that can be done with the game....
@@dawddwadwa5775 basically cEDH really shouldn't "have a banned list" or just leave it like it is with no changes.... But make a 7 a 7 not say your deck is a 7 when it's a 9 or 10
IF this were accurate then why ban Flash and Hullbreacher. These cards were not showing up at all in local metas and Flash ban was for cEDH only...which isn't a concern of the RC at all. Hullbreacher *shrug* we never really saw it that much. So if RC is banning to keep cEDH healthy, give us casuals some love by banning Dockside Extortionist and ThOracle, we're owed two bans from what I see?
I would like to ask the question here. Why exactly would it be asinine to play green in a Dockside-less Bowmaster format? Considering green has all of the best tutors to get to Bowmaster.
how can u say the cEDH meta is healthy when 95% of decks win with the stupid Thassa Combo? thats the opposite of healthy. it always the same. if a deck plays blue it wins with thassa. its so boring and uninspiring
Sounds like you believe if a single card destroy a strategy Example, bowmaster stopping creature strategies It should be banned, which I believe is a fine philosophy So argument for dockside stops enchantment strategies and artifact strategies
How are 5 color blue soup strategies stopped since the printing of dockside? Those greedy decks that you probably play cannot be effectively punished as dockside sidesteps land hate such as blood moon. Dockside is awful for the game and any opinion otherwise is wrong.
I would unban the following. Prim time Sylvan prim Rofellos Lutri Golos Fastbond Emrakul Coalition vic Biorythm. Paradox eng (hottest take) Everything else I can understand why it is there.
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Part of the issue with saying: "If you don't want to be punished by Dockside, look at your deckbuilding" is that you are not the only person who can feed a Dockside. It isn't surprising that people choose not to knee cap themselves by not taking advantage of Artifact ramp because even if they do they still get punished when the RogSi player next to you vomitted out 6 Artifacts on turn 1.
This. I had just a Sapphire Medallion and Sol Ring out turn 5+ and the Dockside player still got 7+ treasures because it hits all players and it hits off enchantments. Just get rid of this card already, it does way too much for 1R, and you getting hits off all players is just awful. IDC about Bowmasters, it hasn't impacted us and sees play in the higher-level pods, while DE is all over the place. And...Dockside hasn't dropped in price much, so if the green light is there for its safety, then mass-print it at R in a Standard set or something and be done with it.
It's the same deal as "tempting offer" spells. It would be better not to feed it, but it's bad to slow yourself compared to those who take the deal/use brown ramp.
As a rog si player .. bet your ass I will vomit artifacts lol but least I don’t need them to win so I’m not doing that if I don’t have a pay off
Yeah a lot of people use that type of argument not realizing it's always false, especially in a societal context. Things massively adopted by other people negate whether YOU adopt it or not. You'll still be affected by it. Ban dockside and don't look back.
@@pierredupont1096 It's awful because it punishes people who run land hate like blood moon, it makes 5 color blue soup decks very hard to punish as they circumvent the downside of cards like blood moon, it makes those 5 color decks even more color greedy, and yet people will argue that it's healthy for the format and goes infinite like a ham sandwich?
Also, thanks for getting this view out there and keeping the conversation up. Hopefully the RC does anything soon.
My take on the dockside argument is that the fast artifact mana is just so excessively powerful that feeding a dockside or any other downside will never be enough of a deterrent to cut cards like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Jeweled lotus, mox diamond etc.
I've taken to saying "I'm adding it to the book" after I get blown out by Bowmasters after specifically tooling my deck to play around it, in reference to a supposed book I'm writing on why Bowmasters is terrible for the format and should be banned. I really, REALLY want to thank you for going ahead and publishing that book for me. Saved me a lot of effort
14:42 Freaking prophetic. We are in the worst of all possible worlds!
I have some hope that fast mana being banned in part, will stave off the bleeding
Maybe we need more cedh players on the committee. Universal banlist with more consideration for “both formats”.
"I miss my engine" - Arcum
I think getting rid of dockside into this rog si format would be literally insane lol. It's the only way for other decks to maintain parody in mana.
the biggest fucking travesty of this video is Ian never watching "Interstellar". Absolutely BLASPHEMOUS.
As a Rocco player thank you for bringing up the ban OBM convo again. Thanks for another great one!
Bowmasters punishes decks that are creature greedy and if you lose it to it then look at your own deck building
Thanks for all the engagement today!
I agree with the oracle point. I pitched it to force of will turn 3 and still won that game. Broken AF
Mystic remora is not as bad as Rhystic in a lot of situations. Dies easier to mental misstep and players stuck under paying for remora can easily be screwed over if the other players are responsible. It’s really more toxic later in the game when you have enough mana to pay the upkeeps
Overall totally agree with bowmaster ban. Creature decks have to take the collateral damage of cards like Rhystic even when they’re not the ones drawing.
Right but it's where people go turn 1 land > sol ring > arcane signet > mystic remora
That puts you into a lose lose scenario where the person who did that can just keep paying for remora for a very long time and still progress their board state.
Playing into it draws them so many cards, not playing into it means that your board states is so far behind that you'll likely lose the game if you don't play into it.
It really offers the illusion of choice that no matter what you do you're basically going to get the same result as you'll lose the game.
Obviously mana dork decks get around that but not every deck has green in their colors.
@@voluntarism335 totally. I mean, I think they both should be banned personally. I would just do Rhystic first.
@@reuvan16 I would ban these 5 cards
1 Dockside
2 Mana Crypt
3 Sol Ring
4 Nadu
5 Thassa's Oracle
If I could only ban 1 card it would be Dockside
Without mana crypt and sol ring mystic and rhystic wouldn't be problematic anymore, as people would not be able to turbo them out turn 1 and have a massive mana advantage.
Dockside just makes it impossible to effectively punish 5 color blue soup greedy decks.
Nadu punishes interaction and forces you to use removal spells on their untappers. It is really awful for the game
Thassa's Oracle is the least ban worthy card out of all of them since it's only purpose is to win the game.
Thassa is a problem because it makes blue soup objectively the best deck because the win condition is the most efficient and hardest to interact with as well.
If I could only ban 1 card it would be Dockside as land punisher cards like blood moon would return to the game and would make the meta less homogeneous.
The reason tivit is the only real artifact centric deck is cause it’s the only really consistent one and I don’t think that has to do with dockside
Getting paradox engine would make a lot of previous decks usable again, so that would be much more of a benefit vs prime or golas
I appreciate the conversation, 10 min in so we'll see.
My opinion as a 60 card plus limited player who casually grinds for tournaments and has only been on cEDH for less than a year is this. cEDH is a huge format gaining attention with every new set. A separate ban list doesn't seem like the right move. Rule 0 and those in charge of the banned list currently can take care of casual as usual. I would appreciate it if more attention was publicly put on cEDH in terms of banning and unbanning cards. The health and variety of a competitive format makes more sense than policing casual tables and casual online pods. Rule 0 and the power level of casual can absolutely absorb the uncomfortable impact of this type of change. Pushed cards will continue to be a thing but having more competitive minded magic lovers making decisions specifically for the competitive side of this format would be a step closer. I appreciate your opinions about bans and personally agree that bowmasters is an issue. I also would like to see the long term demolition of the reserved list or the renaming of old cards with new I.P.
Duals from another Jurassic Park set please and thank you. Or some snow duals from the new universe's beyond frozen / Disney set. Candelabra dropped down to a 200$ card? " Let It Go!"
That's my 2 cents and with inflation it's worth nada.
Part of the original Reserve List published agreement was that WotC would not print mechanically identical cards to the RL cards, so Jurassic Park flavored duals would only be possible if the RL was thrown out. WotC has come close (see Shocks vs Duals, the new Drake from MH3 vs Gilded Drake) but there's mechanical differences that make the newer cards either strictly or arguably worse than the original RL versions.
Is nobody going to mention Ian’s hair in the beginning lol
I think in the dockside discussion youre both right. There are all the strategies Ian mentioned that dont see play because of it, but at the same time artifact ramp and various low cmc enchantments are just too good to pass up. I think a similar comparison is nonbasic lands' relation with bloodmoon: The opportunity cost of not playing nonbasics is too steep to care about the threat of bloodmoon. Maybe not completely analagous but there is similarity.
Also with cards like gifts ungiven, sylvan primordial, primetime, etc, i think the RC's worry is that the accessibilty of those cards would upset the casual space more than similar cards that aren't banned because those similar legal cards are generally more expensive. Its kinda like this weird counterintuitive thing where unbanning a card that already has a strictly better yet more expensive unbanned counterpart can raise the average powerlevel of casual more than the unbanned one does, simply because of price/availibilty/reprints.
Also if you’re playing against a dockside deck… ie… korvold or sisay… don’t feed dockside. It forces you to play slower or you just lose. We have insane artifacts and enchantments… there is NOTHING in the format to even make you think about not playing them besides dockside….
That is not true, mass artifact destruction did make people think about that before dockside existed.
Dockside is problematic, 5 color blue soup decks are incredibly hard to punish as blood moon is ineffective and it goes infinite like a ham sandwich.
The card is not healthy for the game.
20:19 PrimeTime is real close for me, cuz you get that and, say, a kitten down and that gets out of hand FAST, especially if you have Derevi as a commander…I dunno, that’s close for me
I don’t think bowmasters provides anywhere near the advantage dockside produces. Biggest thing is bowmasters aren’t a problem in casual edh but dockside is a problem in both casual and cedh. Bowmasters is deff a drag but it only punishes others players advantage rather than producing advantage besides the orc army which is never the issue.
The Rog si players are all running DSE
Bowmasters did not need to make a giant orc army that has to be dealt with as well.
It would be fine if it did not etb make a creature.
Though it's not ban worthy, however dockside is ban worthy
A card that was supposed to punish fast mana/treasure creation/artifacts, and, surprise, didn't meet the mark, was the card Charismatic Conqueror. The newest squirrel from bloomburrow is a little more on brand with doing that for treasures but it doesnt punish fast mana in the slightest. The Fire design gods have spoken. Time to powercreep my dude OUPHE. LET'EM EAT.
The three cards I was most excited to hear hot takes on weren’t even mentioned: Griselbrand, Recurring Nightmare, and Rofellos. Still, great show as always.
Recurring nightmare just got reprinted... chthonian nightmare
I find it revealing how often decks come up on the power rankings episode and the pod in general that "in spite of a bowmasters world are still doing well" that speaks to me of a normal integration of a card into a format and not it being bad for it personally.
I don't think it is easy to square the amount bowmasters is supposed to be oppressive with how well magda does currently as an example.
if there were to be a separate ban list id rather it be like a seasonal thing (akin to something like how pokemon games run their competitive format) so we could see what these formats would look like without slamming the ban hammer, that way you could test other things like what does a meta without partner look like, without fracturing the format as a whole.
The Prestige!!!! What an incredible film!
One fun thing, and this only works in brawl, so probably won't work in CEDH, the new nantuku, pay two men to make a copy, and primeval Titan work together extremely well. I mean it would be nice to have something on the board to untap them, but you know clear out your whole deck turn for turn five. Which isn't that bad, it's easily rectified by a single stifle or anything else but you know it's neat I like it
I’m not for having a separate banned list, however, I think that the CAG is a big part that, say, the top 200 players could say the things like Ian said where “hey Bowmasters is gonna wreck this and warp the format” and here we are, so if there was another impartial group that’s involved, or add 2 cEDH to the CAG and go from there, but again, I don’t think it’s a good idea to separate the banned list
Can't believe I'm saying this, but I share Cal's ultimate opinion. Dockside is the great equalizer, it helps keep you in the game when you fall behind and breaks open games that are starting to stall. OBM incongruently punishes players that are NOT feeding into it, which is stupid AF. And Primeval Titan is a lot of people's favorite card (myself included) and really doesn't do all that much, even in casual games.
i think the issue with lurti is less that it makes not playing U/R wrong, and more that it means that it is just wrong to ever play a deck that has U/R and does not play lutri as a companion.
I play in a no-proxy meta, and lately what I have noticed is that Dockside is almost not good in my meta. We don't have a lot of Crypts and Moxen, so my Tymna/Jeska deck has focused more on Worldgorger or Abdel Adrian combos more than Dockside/Cthulean Nightmare. I often look at the table and see that I can't break even. Granted, it's a weird meta, but it makes me feel like Dockside is more fair than we often talk about.
Unfortunately your meta is not representative of the cedh meta at large. Most tournaments are proxyfriendly, so everyone can be on all fast mana available, making dockside +4 in the worst situations and +8 in a good situation.
"Hey buddy, I see you are getting lethal swung at you. You can watch us play casual edh for an hour or i can gifts ungiven and you can give me both pieces of my combo" :)
I had a thought a while back that might be interesting to try for edh/cedh. Instead of just banning these carss like dockside and bowmasters, we steal the points method from canadian highlander. And its obviously still gonna have the same issue as the seperate ban list, but it might be at least interesting to try
The RC has abdicated their responsibility. Likely Hasbro should take over the commander banlist
No bans, just unbans
I really think that we don't have to ban dockside if we just ban fast mana. I believe that fast mana disproportionately help the best decks. I think if the RC banned Crypt, all moxes, vault, monolith, petal, jeweled lotus I believe we would A. See more diversity and B. Less need for bans like dockside and thoracle maybe still ban bowmasters
40:00 I'd argue TOR is equally format-warping if not more than Orcish
Here’s the thing casual is such a free for all environment where depending on your playgroup you can play with banned cards and self regulate. We could curve the banned list for cEDH and stuff that makes casual miserable because people will still be able to play with those cards if they really want to. Loved the video I love these looser videos which are few and far between because a set comes out every week
You guys almost got shitty at each other with some of your 'misunderstandings' this time around. More of this content please :)
Key to landing a joke: reiterate you landed a joke…
Wizards is currently maintaining banned as commander and banned overall for duel commander; so it’s definitely possible, but they aren’t doing it.
40:23 I also agree dockside is not a punisher card. It does not punish the player playing artifacts in a manner that hurts just them. It also doesn’t discourage people from playing artifacts and enchantments at the deck-building level. The format is still out here playing as much fast mana as they can and playing clones to take advantage of the dockside they are actively feeding.
I'll give a like and a follow as soon as we get back to Commander League. Because back then, this channel was dope.
I don't think that creating a separate banlist is creating a new subformat when the RC continuously hides behind rule 0. Creating a separate banlist is actually in the spirit of the format because it is to balance and promote the most positive play experience at the highest power level.
In all honesty though, I would rather see more unban than bans to fix the format. There are a lot of toys in the bin that we haven't tested and it would be a nice change of pace
Go Corn Huskers
I think Cal is right if with creating 2 lists. If they added a second ban list 90% of the Cedh cards would need to be banned and no one would want to play that. I think despite complaining about Bow Masters they never explained in a specific way why it should be banned like the RC does with all of its bannings. Yes its great but how does it effect deck building and how does it push decks out of the format. I get that it kills creatures but what strategies and decks are just gone? I play a ton of magda and every creature in that deck dies to bowmasters and it does fine. I love how good bowmasters deals with creature stax peices and how you can politic between players to kill a dranith or a ouphe. Plus bow Masters on board with someone else's rhystic can stop abolishers in their tracks.
Gifts Ungiven is a very powerful card. It’s significantly better than intuition. Every savinne’s/Breach combo deck would get so much better with Gifts Ungiven.
On Sylvan Primordial/Primeval Titan, both lead to very unhealthy play patterns in casual, and specifically blinking or copying Sylvan Primordial is simply a way to just close out all the mana bases. It’s funny that Cal is talking about Sundering Titan.
My thing is the RC has signpost bans and there are commanders who clearly fall into those patterns or others, such as Kinnan and Nadu. I just ask for the committee to have consistency on what they say.
If I was to have my way, which is about condensing and staying true to the RC’a philosophy…
Ban- Kinnan
ban - Nadu
Ban - Dockside
ban - OBM,
ban - Rhystic
ban - TOR.
Unban Bioryrhm, Coalituon Victiry.
Im pretty new to cedh (post lotr) how did bowmaster warp the format by punishing creature decks? I get that it kills most cheap mana dorks in green but doesnt it also puts pressure on bluefarm decks when they want to draw alot?
It can put pressure on them, but doesn't have to. The idea that I can cast a bowmaster in response to seat 1's wheel (or whatever draw spell/effect) and kill seat 3/4's creatures/board is the issue.
You said you have to make sacrifices to stop enchantments do the same for creatures just kill the bow masters don't let it sit there and keep pinging yes it can etb and kill something then cast some removal and deal
The best bowmaster killer is bowmaster. If you play a bowmaster to kill a bowmaster, the number of bowmasters remains the same.
I think there is an argument to be made that they should unban the moxen and black lotus can be unbanned so we can be a vintage-like format, or ban mana crypth and sol ring an be legacy-like format
Would either of you run sylvan primordial and prime time in kinnan as a flip target?
Please unban prime time. Lumra gets even stronger!
Lumra is strong?
@@SkillIssue60 My friend and I have had pretty good success. Would i say strong, no. You're mono-green, so you take a bit of brewers advantage, but you win with land combos so it is extremely difficult to interact with the wins.
I don't know, a rotating band list one that changes per year taking things off adding things on, would at least be an interesting deck building challenge. I understand that it is meant to be the most powerful format, but if it is so solved already you just see the same cards for years on end. There's got to be a middle way
at this point if ROG SIlas is still legal, just unban everything but power 8
Here’s an easy question and answer…does the rules committee ban based on the competitive level of a card or how much fun the casual players are having? That answer is your answer if cedh and edh should be different formats
Making Treasures was the most dumbest thing in MTG
my hot take for bans: If we ban: Rhystic, Rog, and Kraum -- the format instantly gets healthier imo
Why not bowmasters as they are prescribing? Also I think tymna is a bigger offender than kraum
Conquest is what most casuals wish EDH was. It's fun casually and gets rid of a bunch of cards casuals dislike. Also as someone who lived through the dual commander schism you do not want that for cEDH. We had a small group of four that fractured because of the change. I can't imagine what it would do to the tournament scene.
banned as commander / total banned/ etc. the one time i agree with C is leovold can come off. but it needs to not be a commander ... Dockside is a scaler card. the more fast mana/ench the better it gets
I hope this video gets lots of attention. I agree that bowmasters is bad for the format. And I think a lot of current banned cards should be unbanned.
Havent both Thras Tymna and Atraxa been on upswings recently too?
Nadu is already doing the Leovold thing but better 💀
Prime Time is stronger now then it was when it got banned
I'm new to mtg. What cards are people not playing cause of bow masters?
I also felt like dockside and bowmaster would be great. It would change the meta entirely
I think if you ban dock side and bow masters you should have to ban Rystic, the Fish, and Esper Sent....right ? maybe even Birds and Dark Rit?
What do you think of Tournament EDH running more like 1v1 magic where there is no free mulligan (for anyone) and Player 1 does not draw on the first turn? Do you think this would this help alleviate issues with win percentage based on turn order? As a note, I understand that removing the free mulligan would be universal, impacting all players, not just P1. I included it as cEDH decks are a lot more consistent in general than casual, so we should not need the "crutch" as much, especially in a tournament setting. (Also understanding that cEDH is not as consistent as 60 card)
Spoiler alert: Interstellar sucks. It is an absolute waste of time... (Please pardon the pun)
Miniminuteman mentioned
Cal, not only did you make your point very eloquently the first time around re whether Dockside is a deterrent to artifact ramp, etc., I'm totally in agreement with you and I think Ian is incorrect on this point. Ian thinking the reason people don't play Enchantress in cEDH is that Dockside deters it is ridiculous! Cal, you're definitely correct that Dockside and Rhystic Study don't *punish* the opponent for artifact ramp/spells; rather, they are *parasitic* cards. And as was the case with Flash, the best answer to an opponent's Dockside, etc., is to be playing your own. Never thought I'd see the day where'd be wholeheartedly on Team Cal in a debate!!!!
I am the fan of Rhystic ban purely because I hate the "do you pay the 1?" for every single spell in the game. Power level aside I find it so annoying I'd rather not.
Before I lost my hair from old age, I used to have a mohawk and my wife’s a hairstylist and used to colour it different colors. It was $&@%ing wild man.
Edited because my phone auto text something else
Daily reminder to abolish the reserve list
My take is get rid of bowmasters, dockside and Rhystic Study. In all honesty Tymna should also go....
*insert Seinfeld music*
Straight ban partners, sick of seeing two creatures in command zone
Ban the reserve list. Unban hullbreacher but make it red
I dont understand why all the moxes are band they are zero drop artifacts that create 1 mana ??????
My top 5 need to be banned #1 Thassa's Oracle
#2 Ad Nauseum
#3 Timetwister
#4 Basalt Monolith
#5 Rhystic Study
if you lose to bowmasters run more removal
A seperate banlist would 100 percent valid.
It doesnt make sense to have a comittee that makes a banlist decision to help casuals... but also not go far enough in certain areas FOR THE CASUALS.
so weird that edh is apparantly not competetive enough to ban Thassas oracle.... but well ban stuff like golos. When in CEDH... Golos would prolly be trash. IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE.
Well ban a card that if you do a condition you win the game... but again... thasas oracle stays? And its easier to win woth?
Just let CEDH be broken but for regular edh players... give them an actual banlist that is made to let edh be a fun environment.
I hate the argument if "CEDH and edh are the same format" cause its really not. If it was so similar then you should just play your regular decks against Cedh with no issues.
Just make them seperate. They are already seperate based on power level. Why not?
Because you'll never get everyone to agree on it.
Ok but who actually thinks bowmasters will see a ban?
forgot to like, had to come back
I would be interested to know how much cEDH the average person calling for a thoracle ban plays. I don’t know any of these people myself, I don’t even know if they’re real or a straw man, but the suggestion sounds a lot like the view of someone who is consuming cEDH content online but not actually playing it.
Basically it sounds like a complaint/criticism stemming from a desire to see novel wins, which is definitely a consumer mindset and not a player mindset imo.
Dockside goes bowmasters stays shit no reason to play green
Bow, thor and rhystic is my recipe for bans.
Thor makes naus decks have bad pivots. Storm hate gets a lot better.
Bow makes playing to the board stronger. Also buffing hate pieces vs storm.
Rhystic ... everyone hates rhysitc. Get that shit out of here
I think I may be the only person who wants Iona to be unbanned lmao
I think it would be possible for large TO’s to make a unified banned list. Wizards is not going to support cEDH in its current iteration; so why are cEDH events even abiding by their banned list? Wizards is going to keep dumping un-sets and cards that are issues into the format and until a split is made you just eat the slop.
If they choose to ban partners, nadu, and large problematic cards; do you just stay put? What if they do unban flash? Just hang out and keep eating the slop?
Unban griseldaddy 😅
Edh and cEDH are the SAME format you can't have separate banned lists.... However more guidance as to what makes something cEDH over a high power would help (sort of like the rule zeros the rc is doing with silver borders)
Do we need more guidance? cEDH is 100% focussed on winning without any compromises when it comes to feelings of your opponents or the budget for your deck. Best-in-slot cards > letting your opponent do „their thing“
@@dawddwadwa5775 the cEDH meta as a whole.... No... But more on those filthy casual players lol.... Everyone wants to "win" their game and if I'm putting together a rube Goldberg combo but lose to a normal "cEDH" style combo this isn't fun..... I love losing to a holy crap you just pulled this off (in casual) way more than someone dropping a thousand mana positive rocks and drawing a deck and wining with lab man or thassa..... I mean I have a high mana dino deck that I tossed dockside in (and cthonian nightmare ) for flavor (no way to tutor) and feel bad if I combo off early... Unless I'm trying to make an "exhibition" for maybe some new players showing things that can be done with the game....
@@dawddwadwa5775 basically cEDH really shouldn't "have a banned list" or just leave it like it is with no changes.... But make a 7 a 7 not say your deck is a 7 when it's a 9 or 10
IF this were accurate then why ban Flash and Hullbreacher. These cards were not showing up at all in local metas and Flash ban was for cEDH only...which isn't a concern of the RC at all. Hullbreacher *shrug* we never really saw it that much. So if RC is banning to keep cEDH healthy, give us casuals some love by banning Dockside Extortionist and ThOracle, we're owed two bans from what I see?
@@pierredupont1096 I don't know how many times I've used thassa and dockside for value and "not abuse"
Dockside is banned
Hear me out comedian for the RC. Representation for what is a major part of the community is important.
Getting a representative from the CEDH community onto the RC is a fantastic idea
Dudes main deck is Tivit… OFC he’s a dockside hater.
I would like to ask the question here.
Why exactly would it be asinine to play green in a Dockside-less Bowmaster format?
Considering green has all of the best tutors to get to Bowmaster.
to note: I agree 100000% that Bowmaster is terrible for the format, it doesn't punish card draw, it punishes everyone else.
I think if the the treefolk that destroys a non creature permanent on entry with persist is fine sylvan is probably fine.
bowmasters is not ban worthy
Unban Prophet of Kruphix
Definitely ban bowmasters and mystic
Orcish bowmasters is awesome, my opponents run it, and I ignore it. And win despite them running it
#freepengine
how can u say the cEDH meta is healthy when 95% of decks win with the stupid Thassa Combo? thats the opposite of healthy. it always the same. if a deck plays blue it wins with thassa. its so boring and uninspiring
Sounds like you believe if a single card destroy a strategy
Example, bowmaster stopping creature strategies
It should be banned, which I believe is a fine philosophy
So argument for dockside stops enchantment strategies and artifact strategies
How are 5 color blue soup strategies stopped since the printing of dockside? Those greedy decks that you probably play cannot be effectively punished as dockside sidesteps land hate such as blood moon.
Dockside is awful for the game and any opinion otherwise is wrong.
I would unban the following.
Prim time
Sylvan prim
Rofellos
Lutri
Golos
Fastbond
Emrakul
Coalition vic
Biorythm.
Paradox eng (hottest take)
Everything else I can understand why it is there.