No No No! The iceberg did not 'shred' the side of the ship. It did not open 'like a tin opener". The blunt side of the iceberg irregularly popped the brittle rivets along the side plates. There is no 'gash'. What we see are a series of deformations starting and stopping along the side. The entire combined size of impact apertures was only about 11sqft - about the size of two pavement slabs. The problem, of course, is that this is about 1,400 liters a second of seawater across 5 compartments.
@@RD-qz1fmearly 2000’s they were able to do side scans under the mud and were able to map the gaps where the hull plating essentially popped leaving a narrow open seam between plates. But even in the original inquiry it was determined based on how long it took to sink and the amount of seawater that entered the ship that the hole was only 12sqft, to surprise of many. That’s incompatible with the idea of a huge gash along the side of the side.
Thanks chaps. The impressions really make you feel you're there. Would hate to besmirch a sponsor or even friend of the show, but wasn't Marconi a little underhand and more entrepreneur than inventor?
What a great podcast, just a couple of points of correction for your consideration. The engines were not reversed, there was no time to do so and it was not standard procedure to initiate a crash stop. They were brought to a stop and were likely still turning at impact. The sides were not opened up with a large gash but grazed. And ramming the berg at speed would not have been a good idea. The impact would have killed so many and bent the ship, possibly sinking her faster, much like crashing a car into a wall, it buckles all the way down.
As a Pennsylvanian, I need to say, Wilkes-Barre is the part of a greater metro area that contains Scranton, the birthplace of Joseph Robinette Biden, the current US President. It is also the area where the American version of The Office, takes place.
The information now is that the bow had already started to rurn when the lookouts phoned the bridge. Murdoch had already seen the black shape and took action having a better vantage point in the bridge.
Really enjoying your programmes since I found your channel. Just a few minor corrections. 1 The ship grazed the Iceberg, the iceberg did not hit the ship. The ice below the water line DID NOT slice through the ships plates like a tin opener, instead it placed excessive pressure on the hull plates, enough to pull the rivet heads off their stems, as in the very cold water, these had become brittle due to the the microscopic defects in the rivets metallic structure, and possible work hardening when bashed over, due to the poor (compared to modern standards) metallic alloy of the rivets. The entire opening to the sea on Titanic was not large, but was dispersed enough to doom the ship. As it was the plates that became separated in just a few areas, and not a gash, the total area was only between 12 and 14 square foot, spread out between the forepeak, number 1, 2, and 3 holds, and boiler rooms 5 and 6, meaning 6 watertight compartments were flooding and the pumps could not keep up. Should be noted there has been ships (very recently in fact) that suffered far lighter damage than Titanic, and despite all their safety features, sunk in minutes, and ships that had far bigger damage than Titanic, but because the bulkheads went up to the top deck and with the double skin hill, were able to stay afloat. The actual damage on Britannic was far less in regard to compartmental damage, but the explosion damaged the the watertight doors, and with the portholes open due to the hot Mediterranean weather, allowed the ship to flood unchecked. 2 Captain Smith DID NOT ram HMS Hawke with RMS Olympic. The two ships were were on a parallel course. The Southampton Harbour pilot was in charge on the liners bridge, and requested, Captain Smith to bring Olympic on a starboard course (turn right), and Olympic gave two blasts on its whistles to worn Hawke that they were crossing their path, the liner having the greater speed, and had the right of way. Hawke failed to respond, and it was HAWKE that rammed Olympic. The Royal Naval enquiry decided Hawke was not to blame, despite the clear evidence from both crews and the Admiralty tried to blame the incident on Olympics size, draft and speed. White star, based on the evidence from the witnesses of the enquiry, tried to appeal, but the Admiralty refused the appeal. 3 During departure from Southampton, it was the displacement of the Titanic that caused the SS New York to be pulled so hard, her mooring ropes snapped. Captain Smith, with ample competence, ordered titanic's Port (left) engine to be ran full astern and the flow of water over the propellers was enough to push hard enough on the smaller ship to narrowly prevent collision. Titanic would have been unable to change course. Captain Smith was not at fault for either incident, and had he not been so sharp and competent for the latter incident, a collision would have happened. Titanic was delayed by 4 hours, while the then adrift SS New York was recovered and brought back to port.
No mention of Francis Browne, an Irish theology student who would later become a Jesuit priest. He had been given a present of a ticket to go from Southampton to Queenstown via Cherbourg. On the Titanic, he took many photos and I believe took the last photo of her as he was brought back into Queenstown. He had nearly stayed on the Titanic as a first class couple had befriended him and offered to pay for him to make a return journey. He asked for permission to stay but his supervisor in college telegraphed back with 'GET OFF THAT SHIP - PROVINCIAL'.
I'm a descendant of both Dalmatian Croats and Galician Poles that fled Austria-Hungary via Germany to the UK to the USA around this time. The longheld family myth was that either or both just barely missed traveling aboard the Titanic... by a couple years apiece.
Also, First Officer Murdoch didn't attempt to reverse Titanic's engines as a means of avoiding the berg. He simply cut power to the engines using the inertia of the liner to port around the rapidly approaching iceberg. There was no time to execute a crash-stop/reversal maneuver.
The series is great fun and informative, but please pronounce the Widener family name properly! The 'i' is long, as in the word 'wide' WIDE-ner (I have met some of the family)
If you traveled by Cunard you couldn’t have a shower at 2am but you did get to New York on time, with all your luggage, alive, and dry. There are good reasons why Cunard took over White Star not the other way around.
Note also the Titanic only had as many passengers as she did was due to transfers from other vessels whose voyages had been cancelled due to the coal strike.
Great podcast but it’s worth noting that the Titanic was not three feet longer than the Olympic. They were exactly the same dimensions 882.9 feet long and 92.6 feet wide. The only difference between the two was enclosed gross tonnage which is the amount of internal volume in a ship devoted to human activity not including machinery space and promenade deck space. The Titanic exceeded the Olympic in this by only 1004 tons. Historically shipping companies have manipulated that number to make claims that their ship was the largest the best example being the United States Line claiming their liner the Leviathan was greater than the White Star Line’s Majestic . The Titanic exceeded the Olympic in this due to additional staterooms, an enlarged a la carte restaurant, addition of a Cafe Parisian that were added to her after observations made during the Olympic’s first few voyages. If these additions proved popular they would’ve been added to the Olympic and indeed were after she went to Belfast for her post Titanic refit emerging from the refit some 31 tons greater than the Titanic. It’s a great misnomer when the Olympic is referred to as the “smaller” sister ship as in reality they were the same size outside of the above mentioned discrepancy.
I don't wish to nitpick here but the massacres of the Armenians before WW1 were *not* due to the Young Turks, although the later (and far worse) genocide was. The massacres of the 1890s were called the Hamidian massacres because they were largely carried out by Kurdish tribesman on the wink and the nod of Sultan Abdul Hamid II who feared the rising Armenian nationalism of various groups - before Turkish nationalism had any power - and their danger to the stability of the empire. An empire that was already reeling from 50 years of semi-colonial interference resulting in its progressive disintegration and desperately trying to find a unifying force to counteract against the more militarily and economical potent European rivals. And because he had a vague goal of Islamifying the country, making the empire a pan-Islamic Caliphate, which the empire was theoretically but had never really achieved pragmatically because of the Millet system. This was the same set of policies that provoked troubles among the Bulgars years before and spurred the Russians to try to seek to repeatedly dismantle their European empire. Abdul Hamid II made matters worse by trying to surpress information of the massacres and it contributed to the sense among many powers that they had ready made casus belli for attacking and ripping off parts of the empire, as both Italy and Russia had already been doing, for example.
My only problem with the portrayals of the sinking in the 97 flick and various other docudramas is that because their was reportedly no moon and a flat calm sea by Ken Marschall in the 94 documentary is when the dynamos do fail and the lights go out it would absolutely pitch black until the ship snaps in two. I do understand that in movies, we have to see the events unfold because of their movies. Ultimately, we weren't there . Thanks ever much
First Officer Murdoch did not make a "mistake" by attempting to port around the offending iceberg. No officer on duty of any ship will simply allow a ship to plow straight into an iceberg or whatever hazard that has been identified laying in the path of the ship.Over the past several decades the trivia fact that a head on collision with the iceberg would have been survivable has become well known among the general public who seem to translate that bit of information as to make an intentional collision with the berg with no attempt to maneuver around/away from the object the correct choice. This is simply steering the ship with information that none of the bridge officers had of course. Let's look at what would have happened if Murdoch chose to continue on Titanic's westerly course to New York Harbor. At around 11:40 PM every dish, book, clock, lamp, suit case, you name it would have flown off the shelves/tables that wasn't fastened down, people would have been thrown forward causing injury to many on board. It's likely much of the Firemen not currently on duty in the stokeholds would have suffered horrible injuries when their forward berths located in the first two compartments would have been crushed like a ripe grape. Every soul on board would have felt the head on impact with the iceberg as the liner went from 21½ knots to Zero in a second. You can imagine Captain Smith in a disheveled state as he made his way back to the bridge. SMITH: "What the hell happened? What have we hit?" MURDOCH: "Not to worry sir. We spotted the iceberg about eight or nine hundred yards ahead. Then I got to thinking, well we certainly don't want a situation where I attempt to avoid the little bugger and the iceberg winds up creating a series of open seams in Titanic's hull plating below water along the ship's first 5 or 6 watertight compartments so I decided to let the old girl just ram herself smack dab into Mr. Iceberg right there! That should provide that ghastly woman Ms. Molly Brown with more than enough extra ice for her Brandy Alexanders! So long story short, thanks to my decision not to do Jack about turning the ship away from the berg the damage was isolated to the first two compartments...three at the most but everyone is going to live! Well, almost everyone...probably with a lot of whiplashes and injuries sustained of varying degrees but it's better than losing....meh....I'm gonna go with 1,512 deaths that MAY have died if I didn't do what I didn't do if you get what I'm saying. Isn't that "Brilliant" as we Brits like to say? " SMITH: You have obviously taken leave of your senses ole man! I mean what the fu... holy shi...I just...holy fuc...." Can you imagine the newspapers the next day or two? "Insane bridge officer purposely steers RMS Titanic into iceberg on her maiden voyage! Murdoch arrested in New York City..."
5 episodes on the Titanic. Great. Admittedly an interesting historical event. 2 rushed episodes on Watergate? (I just listened to them over the last couple of days.) Granted, no UK tie-in, but a hugely significant event in US history. Feels like a bit of short shrift….
@ropeburnsrussell Gee, I never would have guessed they are British. How could one possibly tell? And that has nothing to do with my comment. They have a number of multi-episode historical events covered.
@@ropeburnsrussell I tried to respond earlier, but for some reason it wouldn't go through. I just said, no problem at all. I probably overreacted, as is my want. LOL
Hey if you are seeing a context warning about this article, please click the three dots and complain about the babysitting. Click no for dissatisfied and leave a strongly worded comment.
first of all, Croatia didn't exist in 1912, second of all, these Lebanese you speak of constituted what percentage? If you're going to virtue signal about today's immigration woes, at least address the real concern of INTEGRATION!!!
Croatia didn't exist as a nation, but Croatians did exist. Not sure how it is virtue signalling to remark on the diversity of nationalities on the Titanic. It's using it as a prism to mention wider social trends from the 1910s, such as mass migration to America. Trying to tie it to modern political concerns is all about your personal views and nothing to do with history.
This Titanic series is absolute fantastic. Thanks for making them 👍
Got a day off from work, but thankfully it’s back to school with double history this morning.
You guys are the steerage of podcasts…🎉 great fun and Irish dancing too…
Tom’s impressions never cease to amaze! 😊
I just love all your content . Pure gold each and every single one .
One of the top 10 stories in all history. And well presented.. learning lots of cool details 👏
Yes! Cracking stuff. Thank you.
Tom's American accent is great! He could even play a superhero. ;)
No No No! The iceberg did not 'shred' the side of the ship. It did not open 'like a tin opener". The blunt side of the iceberg irregularly popped the brittle rivets along the side plates. There is no 'gash'. What we see are a series of deformations starting and stopping along the side. The entire combined size of impact apertures was only about 11sqft - about the size of two pavement slabs. The problem, of course, is that this is about 1,400 liters a second of seawater across 5 compartments.
@@RD-qz1fmearly 2000’s they were able to do side scans under the mud and were able to map the gaps where the hull plating essentially popped leaving a narrow open seam between plates. But even in the original inquiry it was determined based on how long it took to sink and the amount of seawater that entered the ship that the hole was only 12sqft, to surprise of many. That’s incompatible with the idea of a huge gash along the side of the side.
Ever the enjoyable podcast!
Thank you for making these!
The iceberg didn't hit the Titanic, the Titanic hit the iceberg.
The child from Rochester with the long trousers survived.
Alfred Rush? No he sadly died.
You didn’t mention Captain smith delayed the alteration to the west and maintained a more south westerly course in reaction to an iceberg warning
Thanks fellas this series was great
Next time i cross the Atlantic in a ship i will be wearing my shorts
Make sure you wear the correct deck shoes too...
Dickens quote: 'No more than a giraffe could be persuaded into a flower pot'
Thanks chaps. The impressions really make you feel you're there.
Would hate to besmirch a sponsor or even friend of the show, but wasn't Marconi a little underhand and more entrepreneur than inventor?
What a great podcast, just a couple of points of correction for your consideration. The engines were not reversed, there was no time to do so and it was not standard procedure to initiate a crash stop. They were brought to a stop and were likely still turning at impact. The sides were not opened up with a large gash but grazed. And ramming the berg at speed would not have been a good idea. The impact would have killed so many and bent the ship, possibly sinking her faster, much like crashing a car into a wall, it buckles all the way down.
So... Just listened to the episode 5 podcast. Surprised by the advert for Royal Carribbean cruises. Not the best product placement, I fear
AMAZING series !!!
As a Pennsylvanian, I need to say, Wilkes-Barre is the part of a greater metro area that contains Scranton, the birthplace of Joseph Robinette Biden, the current US President. It is also the area where the American version of The Office, takes place.
Dunder Mifflin represent!
As Dom was listing the numbers of each nationality of passengers i just could help by adding "and a partridge in a pear tree" at the end.
The ship was going 21 knots for about 6 hours and had about 40 seconds from the time the lookouts saw the berg for the bridge to respond
The information now is that the bow had already started to rurn when the lookouts phoned the bridge. Murdoch had already seen the black shape and took action having a better vantage point in the bridge.
@kevinkevin-ug9po where's this from, if I may? I'm questioning you. But to archivists, nothing else matters 🤣
Really enjoying your programmes since I found your channel.
Just a few minor corrections.
1 The ship grazed the Iceberg, the iceberg did not hit the ship. The ice below the water line DID NOT slice through the ships plates like a tin opener, instead it placed excessive pressure on the hull plates, enough to pull the rivet heads off their stems, as in the very cold water, these had become brittle due to the the microscopic defects in the rivets metallic structure, and possible work hardening when bashed over, due to the poor (compared to modern standards) metallic alloy of the rivets. The entire opening to the sea on Titanic was not large, but was dispersed enough to doom the ship. As it was the plates that became separated in just a few areas, and not a gash, the total area was only between 12 and 14 square foot, spread out between the forepeak, number 1, 2, and 3 holds, and boiler rooms 5 and 6, meaning 6 watertight compartments were flooding and the pumps could not keep up.
Should be noted there has been ships (very recently in fact) that suffered far lighter damage than Titanic, and despite all their safety features, sunk in minutes, and ships that had far bigger damage than Titanic, but because the bulkheads went up to the top deck and with the double skin hill, were able to stay afloat. The actual damage on Britannic was far less in regard to compartmental damage, but the explosion damaged the the watertight doors, and with the portholes open due to the hot Mediterranean weather, allowed the ship to flood unchecked.
2 Captain Smith DID NOT ram HMS Hawke with RMS Olympic. The two ships were were on a parallel course. The Southampton Harbour pilot was in charge on the liners bridge, and requested, Captain Smith to bring Olympic on a starboard course (turn right), and Olympic gave two blasts on its whistles to worn Hawke that they were crossing their path, the liner having the greater speed, and had the right of way. Hawke failed to respond, and it was HAWKE that rammed Olympic. The Royal Naval enquiry decided Hawke was not to blame, despite the clear evidence from both crews and the Admiralty tried to blame the incident on Olympics size, draft and speed. White star, based on the evidence from the witnesses of the enquiry, tried to appeal, but the Admiralty refused the appeal.
3 During departure from Southampton, it was the displacement of the Titanic that caused the SS New York to be pulled so hard, her mooring ropes snapped. Captain Smith, with ample competence, ordered titanic's Port (left) engine to be ran full astern and the flow of water over the propellers was enough to push hard enough on the smaller ship to narrowly prevent collision. Titanic would have been unable to change course.
Captain Smith was not at fault for either incident, and had he not been so sharp and competent for the latter incident, a collision would have happened. Titanic was delayed by 4 hours, while the then adrift SS New York was recovered and brought back to port.
Last shout fae the crowd nest...f*** me.......an iceberg!!!
No no please interrupt me Tom, I was just finishing up.
Tom! 😖
No mention of Francis Browne, an Irish theology student who would later become a Jesuit priest. He had been given a present of a ticket to go from Southampton to Queenstown via Cherbourg. On the Titanic, he took many photos and I believe took the last photo of her as he was brought back into Queenstown. He had nearly stayed on the Titanic as a first class couple had befriended him and offered to pay for him to make a return journey. He asked for permission to stay but his supervisor in college telegraphed back with 'GET OFF THAT SHIP - PROVINCIAL'.
I'm a descendant of both Dalmatian Croats and Galician Poles that fled Austria-Hungary via Germany to the UK to the USA around this time. The longheld family myth was that either or both just barely missed traveling aboard the Titanic... by a couple years apiece.
Also, First Officer Murdoch didn't attempt to reverse Titanic's engines as a means of avoiding the berg. He simply cut power to the engines using the inertia of the liner to port around the rapidly approaching iceberg. There was no time to execute a crash-stop/reversal maneuver.
8:40 Seven Danes, but only one Great Dane.
Did not expect to hear any armenian talk. This is why I love the show.
The series is great fun and informative, but please pronounce the Widener family name properly!
The 'i' is long, as in the word 'wide'
WIDE-ner
(I have met some of the family)
If you traveled by Cunard you couldn’t have a shower at 2am but you did get to New York on time, with all your luggage, alive, and dry. There are good reasons why Cunard took over White Star not the other way around.
Note also the Titanic only had as many passengers as she did was due to transfers from other vessels whose voyages had been cancelled due to the coal strike.
Great podcast but it’s worth noting that the Titanic was not three feet longer than the Olympic. They were exactly the same dimensions 882.9 feet long and 92.6 feet wide. The only difference between the two was enclosed gross tonnage which is the amount of internal volume in a ship devoted to human activity not including machinery space and promenade deck space. The Titanic exceeded the Olympic in this by only 1004 tons. Historically shipping companies have manipulated that number to make claims that their ship was the largest the best example being the United States Line claiming their liner the Leviathan was greater than the White Star Line’s Majestic . The Titanic exceeded the Olympic in this due to additional staterooms, an enlarged a la carte restaurant, addition of a Cafe Parisian that were added to her after observations made during the Olympic’s first few voyages. If these additions proved popular they would’ve been added to the Olympic and indeed were after she went to Belfast for her post Titanic refit emerging from the refit some 31 tons greater than the Titanic. It’s a great misnomer when the Olympic is referred to as the “smaller” sister ship as in reality they were the same size outside of the above mentioned discrepancy.
Pick up, you....
What do you see?
Iceberg dead ahead!
I don't wish to nitpick here but the massacres of the Armenians before WW1 were *not* due to the Young Turks, although the later (and far worse) genocide was. The massacres of the 1890s were called the Hamidian massacres because they were largely carried out by Kurdish tribesman on the wink and the nod of Sultan Abdul Hamid II who feared the rising Armenian nationalism of various groups - before Turkish nationalism had any power - and their danger to the stability of the empire. An empire that was already reeling from 50 years of semi-colonial interference resulting in its progressive disintegration and desperately trying to find a unifying force to counteract against the more militarily and economical potent European rivals. And because he had a vague goal of Islamifying the country, making the empire a pan-Islamic Caliphate, which the empire was theoretically but had never really achieved pragmatically because of the Millet system. This was the same set of policies that provoked troubles among the Bulgars years before and spurred the Russians to try to seek to repeatedly dismantle their European empire. Abdul Hamid II made matters worse by trying to surpress information of the massacres and it contributed to the sense among many powers that they had ready made casus belli for attacking and ripping off parts of the empire, as both Italy and Russia had already been doing, for example.
My only problem with the portrayals of the sinking in the 97 flick and various other docudramas is that because their was reportedly no moon and a flat calm sea by Ken Marschall in the 94 documentary is when the dynamos do fail and the lights go out it would absolutely pitch black until the ship snaps in two. I do understand that in movies, we have to see the events unfold because of their movies. Ultimately, we weren't there . Thanks ever much
First Officer Murdoch did not make a "mistake" by attempting to port around the offending iceberg. No officer on duty of any ship will simply allow a ship to plow straight into an iceberg or whatever hazard that has been identified laying in the path of the ship.Over the past several decades the trivia fact that a head on collision with the iceberg would have been survivable has become well known among the general public who seem to translate that bit of information as to make an intentional collision with the berg with no attempt to maneuver around/away from the object the correct choice. This is simply steering the ship with information that none of the bridge officers had of course. Let's look at what would have happened if Murdoch chose to continue on Titanic's westerly course to New York Harbor. At around 11:40 PM every dish, book, clock, lamp, suit case, you name it would have flown off the shelves/tables that wasn't fastened down, people would have been thrown forward causing injury to many on board. It's likely much of the Firemen not currently on duty in the stokeholds would have suffered horrible injuries when their forward berths located in the first two compartments would have been crushed like a ripe grape. Every soul on board would have felt the head on impact with the iceberg as the liner went from 21½ knots to Zero in a second. You can imagine Captain Smith in a disheveled state as he made his way back to the bridge.
SMITH: "What the hell happened? What have we hit?"
MURDOCH: "Not to worry sir. We spotted the iceberg about eight or nine hundred yards ahead. Then I got to thinking, well we certainly don't want a situation where I attempt to avoid the little bugger and the iceberg winds up creating a series of open seams in Titanic's hull plating below water along the ship's first 5 or 6 watertight compartments so I decided to let the old girl just ram herself smack dab into Mr. Iceberg right there! That should provide that ghastly woman Ms. Molly Brown with more than enough extra ice for her Brandy Alexanders! So long story short, thanks to my decision not to do Jack about turning the ship away from the berg the damage was isolated to the first two compartments...three at the most but everyone is going to live! Well, almost everyone...probably with a lot of whiplashes and injuries sustained of varying degrees but it's better than losing....meh....I'm gonna go with 1,512 deaths that MAY have died if I didn't do what I didn't do if you get what I'm saying. Isn't that "Brilliant" as we Brits like to say? "
SMITH: You have obviously taken leave of your senses ole man! I mean what the fu... holy shi...I just...holy fuc...."
Can you imagine the newspapers the next day or two? "Insane bridge officer purposely steers RMS Titanic into iceberg on her maiden voyage! Murdoch arrested in New York City..."
You must aware of the curse the Titanic sinking placed on the Boston Red Sox?
5 episodes on the Titanic. Great. Admittedly an interesting historical event. 2 rushed episodes on Watergate? (I just listened to them over the last couple of days.) Granted, no UK tie-in, but a hugely significant event in US history. Feels like a bit of short shrift….
They're British, chill.
@ropeburnsrussell Gee, I never would have guessed they are British. How could one possibly tell? And that has nothing to do with my comment. They have a number of multi-episode historical events covered.
@@tommonk7651 you know, I'm sorry I posted that in haste, thinking I was clever. Ta!
@@ropeburnsrussell I tried to respond earlier, but for some reason it wouldn't go through. I just said, no problem at all. I probably overreacted, as is my want. LOL
Wt food in 3rd class?
Why can't you come to the point quickly
You said that White Star discouraged eastern European Jews to travel with them. How did they do that?
This is where you stop?
You are cruel men, perhaps beyond redemption.
Bob Dylans epic song about the Titanic
😮
Hey if you are seeing a context warning about this article, please click the three dots and complain about the babysitting. Click no for dissatisfied and leave a strongly worded comment.
The 4th funnel wasnt fake- it was to draw air into the boilers. The only fake thing aboutbit was that it never had smoke coming out of it
So it was a fake funnel
An exhaust/chimney is not the same as a funnel.@@Chadhogan111
first of all, Croatia didn't exist in 1912, second of all, these Lebanese you speak of constituted what percentage? If you're going to virtue signal about today's immigration woes, at least address the real concern of INTEGRATION!!!
Croatia didn't exist as a nation, but Croatians did exist. Not sure how it is virtue signalling to remark on the diversity of nationalities on the Titanic. It's using it as a prism to mention wider social trends from the 1910s, such as mass migration to America. Trying to tie it to modern political concerns is all about your personal views and nothing to do with history.
Love you guys but when discussing the working class you do talk some shit