Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. --1 Thessalonians 4:17
That is correct the Church is the body of Christ we are baptized in to his body by the spirit . and we will be where ever he is , 1 Cor. 12 : 13 ; We are his bride , and the gates of hell will not come against his Church ( BRIDE )
No matter ones end times interpretation of Revelation, the core value of Christ being King is what's important. Don't forget that discussion should never divide the church.
This doctrine is pivotal. In fact it would deceive many. Cause many are not expecting to live through the times of the antichrist. But we will. And except those days are shortened no "Christian" flesh shall be saved to greet the christ in his return.
When it comes to doctrines likes these, or any teaching of the Bible for that matter, I believe we need to approach it with great humility. Eschatology is a very difficult subject to tackle, an area which we can easily fall into error if we are not careful. Additionally, we must also be careful to not alienate other Christians, particularly regarding secondary issues that have nothing to do with salvation. With much respect to our brother, who is bold and courageous enough to publicly share his biblical views. I would like to add a portion of scripture that perhaps may be overlooked by him and other brothers that disagree with the doctrine of the rapture. When it comes to objections regarding verses in Matthew 24, regarding the rapture, those that disagree with a rapture say that Noah and his family were not taken away ,but rather preserved through the flood and this is true, however what many overlook in the Genesis account is the person of Enoch, whom the Bible says was taken away by God before the flood came. I think this is a very important piece of information because it sets an important precedence of a “rapture”. It appears Genesis chapter 5 , which is one chapter before God commissions Noah to build the ark. God raptures Enoch before he pours out his wrath. Another issue that arises when discussing the subject of the rapture is the nature of the Great Tribulation. There has always been tribulation in this world, Christians all over the world are being killed every day for their allegiance to Christ our Lord. As Christians we will suffer tribulation in this world, in some cases we will even die for our faith. It is however very important to make a distinction between tribulation and The Great Tribulation. The Bible teaches us that the Great Tribulation will be a time where God will pour out his wrath upon the world, upon the kingdom of the Antichrist, from which faithful Christians will be saved from. Again, there is precedence in Genesis. Our Lord Jesus Christ tells is Luke 17:29 that the last days will also be like the days of Lot: Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Notice something important in the wording, the same day Lot “went out of Sodom” it rained fire and brimstone. If your read the account of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah you will see that God does not pour out his wrath until he gets Lot out of the city. Now If God did not allow Lot, who was not where he was supposed to be, to remain and suffer the outpouring of his wrath, how then will he allow those redeemed by the precious blood of his son to suffer through it. Paul mentions in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that as believers we are not appointed to wrath, but salvation. This is by no means exhaustive, there are many examples in the scriptures like the ones I have referenced, nevertheless I hope this can be a blessing to some, God bless you brothers, To God be the Glory
Shannyn Tritton if I may kindly offer some advice, before we call people heretics, it would be more fruitful to ask for more clarification as to why a person holds a particular point of view, if after clarification you still believe that person to be in error, then at that point it may be more fruitful still, to try and win that person over rather than calling them a heretic, as stated by James in the following verses: James 5:19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. For clarification, my position is not that we are saved because we are faithful, rather a person that has been born again is faithful because they are saved, because God the Holy Spirit has indwelt their mortal body. I know that the method I prescribed may require some patience and may not be suited for the quick wit of the internet, but let us not abandon the love and patience of Christ and remember to shine his light everywhere we go, and remember that his piercing eyes are not limited to the depths of our hearts, but they also extend to the TH-cam comment section, God bless you! May the name of Christ resound in all the earth! Glory be to his mighty name!
@@thequadraphonicgospels7829 some say Noah was taken, others believe Noah and Arc were a picture of the pre Trib rapture. Noah rose above the waters Pre Trib Rapture, and Noah came down on earth, after judgment for the 2nd coming of Jesus to set up the millennium.
Mark King thanks for your reply, if I may kindly suggest, it would be more fruitful for us to limit our interpretation to the pages of The Bible rather than speculation based upon external sources. God bless you mate.
Stand by , God is going to pour out his personal wrath on you,, yes that’s you,, just for believing in him,, for your loyalty in belief you will become collateral damage just before the marriage of the church to our savior Jesus,, wear makeup of course to hide your wounds piled on you by the groom.. that’s what you believe,, get used to it,, a cave won’t hide you.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
@@bobgriffith1810 That is correct! When you are Gods child you will indeed be persecuted GREATLY! Christ never said it would be easy, he in fact said we would be persecuted just like he was. Scripturally and historically christians have been persecuted, silenced, tortured, jailed, stoned, crucified and put to death in the name of Christ. During the dark ages alone between 50-100 million Christians have been killed for their faith. (To put in perspective the holocaust 6 million people were killed) The Roman inquisition was very brutal and I suggest you look into the history of it. Because when you see what those Christian’s have suffered you will know a rapture does not exist because if so, those people needed to escape more than any human being in history. It was truly a horrific time in history that many Christian’s do not know of. God bless you 💕 and please read the following verses below…. 1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also Luke 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. Matthew 5:11-12 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” “And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Psalm 7:5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah. Matthew 10:37-38 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
I'm amazed at how many people in the comment section can't understand this video. I've watched several videos like this and read several articles, and I agree entirely with this dude. I went to seminary and didn't learn the rapture was false. It wasn't until I went searching for the answer to this question that it was answered. Thanks, bro.
the worst part is its lay people that debate this, anyone with an understanding of exegeting and the minimal amount of investigation can see very clearly the truth.
@@marwasgaming this is true even in the "truther" community. They say they question everything but when I try to talk to them about how all their "End Times" foreboding might not be true they reject it immediately. I guess too many conspiracies fit that mark of the beast stuff? Satan can certainly influence humans to do things that reinforce this false narrative. It's quite advantageous for believers to assume they'll either be beamed up or beheaded. Either way they assume failure is inevitable and don't really try to fight against evil.
I understand this video completely and find it contrary to scripture. I find it common that people make videos and either twist or ignore clear truth to confuse people about a clear doctrine that believers are given comfort of a promise of God's word. Don't need seminary training to find the clear truth.
I find it interesting that he keeps saying "they will go to Heaven to live with Jesus forever." But as far as I know, no one who believes in the rapture believes that Heaven is our permanent home. Don't forget that the New Jerusalem IS the Bride - the Church - established on Earth again.
@@Στεφανος-κ7υ They did and they discussed period possible models such as pretribulation and midtribulation. In any case, Thessalonians mentions the rapture.
@@1969cmp it mentions a temporal rapture, it means we go to receive Christ in Heaven and immediately afterwards we go to the battle of Armageddon which means that if we are alive by that time, we will go through the whole tribulation
I believe the Holy Spirit just gave me a revelation… These examples of Pre, Mid & Post Trib and the Rapture are just more examples of God’s grace. No matter which one happens, we can rest assured that… All those that walk with Christ WILL be saved
Timothy C, don't believe seedbed. Because he is misleading Biblically ignorant people. Plus, there is a pre-tribulation rapture, and three mid tribulation rapture's, but no post tribulation rapture.
@@ML-uc2zc there are seven rapture's in the Bible. Three have already happened. The next rapture is the pre-tribulation rapture. Then there's three more rapture's after the Church has been raptured to Heaven. Study the Bible. And you'll see all the rapture's.
Yes the pre trib rapture is a recent theory circa 1830 via john darby but the rapture is a long standing biblical teaching that even very early Christian. Writings like the Didache (95-125ad) irenaus, clement of Rome & others taught the rapture. It's not fear mongering it is the blessed hope that Jesus will rescue his church during the worst time ever known on earth.
Tom Brown, all Darby did was to rediscover and popularize a version of the rapture doctrine, but as you noted, the rapture rescue had been taught since the first century. Claims that Darby invented the rapture started as a conspiracy theory invented by a reporter named Dave MacPherson in the 1970s. His research was easily falsified because he literally interpreted evidence backwards. For example, the conspiracy theory says that Darby got the pre-trib rapture from a Scottish teenage girl who channeled the doctrine from demons, but the demons actually told her to say the church must go thru the great tribulation, which ironically is exactly what the reporter and everyone who accepts his conspiracy theory believes.
@@dr.klausschwab6184, because Matt 24:29-31 clearly shows Jesus coming and gathering saints after the tribulation of those days, many people feel that this proves a post-trib rapture. But the rapture was a mystery before Paul, so Jesus would only have spoken about it using the veiled language of things like parables and metaphors. Therefore, Jesus was not talking about the rapture there, and that fact disproves the post-trib rapture.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 No thats not what the Church ever Believed, The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion and does not reveal strange doctrines after 1900 years
Matthew 24 : 21 to 31 . Jesus says that his return will be like lightning is from the east to the west . Jesus also said in these verses that he will return after the tribulation of those days .
The tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel .or 7 years of tribulation . and Rev. 19 tells of his second coming the rapture has all ready taken place we saved believers who are the Church will be coming back with him 19 : 11 - 16 ; Matt. 24 has nothing to do with the rapture of the Church or any thing to do with the Church age which come to its end with the rapture .
Leonard You correctly quoted the 2nd coming. This 2nd coming is after the tribulation period and is very specific to when Jesus sends his angels to Gather his Elect (primarily Jewish survivors of the Great tribulation) this is the gathering that Jesus had spoken of earlier that he had wanted ' like a hen who gathers her chicks" But the Jews had rejected their Messiah King and now the Jews say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord thus the Lord can return for them and he gathers them to Jerusalem. There is no rapture of the Church in this section. The Church will have been raptured prior to the start of the 70 week of Daniel. The period scripture calls the time of Jacobs trouble And the Church is not Jacob . The Church and Israel are not the same.
Some I believe have misunderstood what is being said because he is using the terminology "Rapture." As a former dispensationalist, I believe that he is emphasizing the misuse of the "dispensational-rapture." Yes, we will meet Messiah in the air, but not be taken to dwell in heaven for 7 yrs (pre-tribulation) or 3 1/2 yrs (mid-tribulation) or so. Rather, we will march (return) with Him back to the earth in which Elohim created us and gave us dominion.
Amen Miguel Cotto, what you say is Truth! Jesus said to all of the Churches the following! 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. That is the Resurrection that ALL in the Churches will be in! Jesus also said the Following! 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that EVERYONE which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. This Day of Jesus Raising us ALL up is that Day called the FIRST RESURRECTION!!!!!
but after we go into the air, with him, wont we need to prepare for war..... you know, a briefing of sorts? maybe some training? I mean Armageddon is going to be combative
This is absolutely true. There is no rapture such as is taught. I never knew it until the Lord showed me. It shook me up. But like the cow in the bushes puzzle once you see it you cannot unsee it and you wonder how you couldn't see it before you did.
@Mike I have a couple of thoughts for you. Because the bible is written mostly in metaphors/parables/imagery, the way I see it, the rapture is about believers and non-believers in terms of christians who believe in god/jesus and christians who *claim to believe in god/jesus but their actions/choices/true beliefs are antithetical to jesus’ teachings. The so-called “Christians” who twist and lie about The Word to further their agendas will be the ones taken away, but this is where it gets interesting... Apparently before the bible was translated into every language, “going to hell” just meant dying. So if that’s the case, then logic follows that the “anti-christ” will simply die out (taken away = dying out, being killed perhaps). Whether that’s because they all kill each other, or it’s done by the hand of god, I do not know. I have a feeling it will be the hand of god, but in the form of climate change/the damage caused by it. The rest of the people will live out the rest of their days on earth “in God’s presence,” which I think either means 1.) living peacefully, 2.) living in the knowledge that God is with the people who survived, 3.) living in a post-knowledge era where we lose a lot of information, or 4.) there will be intense weather patterns, storms, flooding, etc due to climate change which will wipe out a good chunk of the world population, and the rest will wander what’s left of the earth, picking up the pieces, as “God’s chosen people.” I’m just now considering whether the “rapture” is just another word for “knowledge” and that the internet was the catalyst. Knowledge is now widespread, so nobody is safe from the “light.” We all “face the music” - so-to-speak - in our lives at some point. It is whether we learn from these experiences and do our best to never make them again, or deny everything and continue the cycle, that determines how our lives - and possibly our afterlives - will go.
@Mike One could take “caught up” as to mean caught as in “caught on something.” This group of people will be stuck on a political issue, perhaps, and cannot seem to find a way out. But to answer to your analysis of “being a christian,” are you aware of how the terms in christianity have been changed through the translations? Sometimes the words in other languages are used differently even though they’re close to the same idea, because people provide the meanings behind words (as they evolved to develop language). edit: my claim is that people are the ones who wrote the bible, as well as the thousands of translations throughout the entirety of human history. To assume that people in early human civilization had developed sophisticated language skills and were “inspired” to write “God’s word” (if it’s true) but somehow messed up the translations is interesting. But of course, words change meaning over long periods of time, as do books, because it is the human that attributes meaning based on experience. Just my thoughts.
I'm glad you point out that the rapture idea is recent. This should be stressed more. It's funny how those who want to go back to traditional Christianity are so wrapped up in something that wasn't believed in for 1800 years.
Naiant How do you what was truly believed, when the Roman catholic church was the supreme power during that time, and dictated and destroyed whatever the considered was heretical to the point of burning all materials cause any preaching outside the Catholic church to go underground, and kept more by memory than written format. Amen
Saint Al : Shows how much you don't know because we kept everything written. I should well know considering that I was there as I have been for most all of human history, a witness and observer among you for presently 3,675 years, 4 months, and several odd days and I am not the only one. Hebrews 13:2, Amos 3:7, and John 21:18-24 not to mention Revelation 1:9, Revelation 10: 5-11, and Revelation 11:3
I’ve always had issue with the Rapture theology. It seems to me that such a massive event would get a little more specific airtime in the scriptures than the Rapture believers can produce. All major themes, birth of Christ, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Forgiveness of Sins are written in plain sight and do not have to be interpreted. The Rapture is conspicuous by its absence in that way.
Depending on how you look at it, you could say Noah and his family were “left behind,” or you could say that the sinners were left behind while Noah and his family were the ones “raptured.”
Wesley Cragun, you’re exactly right, and the lesson that Jesus was teaching concerned how the world will be taken by surprise, as Paul said it will happen when the world says peace and safety then sudden destruction falls, BUT the other common thread in both stories is how some righteous believers were saved out of those catastrophes. Noah and his family there lifted up above the Flood waters, and Lot and his family were ushered out of the city by angels, then all hell broke loose on those they left behind.
@@GeneGruber exactly right!36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." The taken gets eaten by vultures.
@@Jasho-Beam You quoted Luke 17:[36]-37 - Context is ALWAYS paramount. Clearly, Jesus is discussing His Return (when He shall reign). The Pharisees questioned Him about the Kingdom of God, and He told them He was in their midst. They did not recognize Him from the Scripture nor by His works. Jesus tells His Disciples that He must suffer at the hands of the Pharisees, but He will be revealed to them, and when that happens, those taken will be food for the vultures (Eagles), and we see this again in Revelation 19:17-18. This is not quite the same event Paul discussed with the Thessalonians when he was with them and when he sent his two letters. The lawless one must be revealed BEFORE Christ returns to reign; that much is the same. But something happens prior to the revelation of the lawless one, something substantial. Paul speaks of a "restrainer" who is taken out of the way. What or who has the power to take the "restrainer" out of the way, and how does the "restrainer" have the power to keep the lawless one at bay until He is removed? The lawless one, "who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as god sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." This same individual is whom Christ will slay with the breath of His mouth. The point is that an event is described that occurs before Christ returns (during a period of time that many want to place the Church in), leaving a question that must be answered, who is the RESTRAINER? If the RESTRAINER, as many have proposed, is the Holy Spirit of God, that is, within everyone who claims Christ as the one and only begotten Son of God, and therefore members of Christ's body, the Bride of Christ, how does this impact the Church? Why is the Holy Spirit proposed as the Restrainer? The short answer is John 16:7-11 wherein we learn that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. When He is taken out of the way, there will be no restraint on sin, there will be a lack of righteousness, and no fear of judgment. The beast from the sea (Revelation 13:1-10) will speak arrogant words and blasphemies against God, His Tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. The Beast is permitted to make war with the saints... and this is where many get confused; Saints are those separated, sanctified, set apart, unto God. Old Testament Saints, New Testament Saints, and Tribulation Saints. Wait... aren't tribulation saints New Testament saints? I guess that generates another question that needs to be asked; who are the 24 Elders seated around the Throne of God? These answers are essential questions that the Bible has provided answers for; however, man's wisdom is not God's wisdom, and English was not the original language of the Bible ~
I personally only have an 8th grade education, but was led to God by the faith in Christ Jesus that was given me by only reading the Word of God in a 100yr old BIBLE i bought as an antique while living in a world of Sin(a drug smuggler was l) ,**Patient is the Lord my God Jesus 50yrs he waited on me before l stopped my sinful ways, do Not wait that long to Repent, one day will be to long for some Sinners**
They may not be the end of the world but someone is wrong because God is not double minded and will tell people theres a rapture and tell others there isnt. The point is God is not rapturing the Church because its not what he said.
I disagree. Doctrine matters. “If any man will do his will, *he shall know of the doctrine* whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” {John 17:7} Whosoever transgresseth, and *abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God* He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. {2 John 1:9} If there come any unto you, *and bring not this doctrine* receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: {2 John 1:10} And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. {Acts 2:42} ... And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, *did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart* {Acts 2:46} Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, *but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees* {Matthew 16:12} Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. {Titus 1:9} Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. {Titus 2:10} Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences *contrary to the doctrine* which ye have learned; and avoid them. {Romans 16:17} If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, {1 Timothy 6:3-4} If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. {1 Timothy 4:6} All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: {2 Timothy 3:16} Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; {2 Timothy 4:2-3} But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but *ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you* {Romans 6:17} Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, *to doctrine* {1 Timothy 4:13} Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. {1 Timothy 4:16}
I always thought that the concept of believers magically disappearing one day was ridiculous. I began reading the left behind books a really long time ago. I couldn’t finish it. It was too silly.
@@andsoitgoes1142 I’m not saying that it’s because of that series that I don’t believe that. I just think scripture is being taken too literal in this case. I believe that the tribulation must happen before the elect are taken. Perhaps the twinkling of an eye could be the flash of nuclear weapons or something, I dunno. But I can say I didn’t come to this conclusion from reading that book. Anyways. I don’t want to argue anyone’s beliefs. That’s just what I believe.
@@edroseptic9442 The twinkling of the eye is a measure of time. One billionth of a second. The *change* from mortal to immortal will happen that fast. I agree with your denial of the pre-trib theory.
As a Systemic Functional Linguistic Scholar myself (in a Biblical Studies field) I can appreciate you calling your audience back to the "genre" (6:57) of the literature being discussed (however we define this slippery term). I agree it is a crucial consideration because it does provide some background context for what is written. On that basis, however, I feel there is an inconsistency that needs addressing in this presentation: 4:02 "What Paul is actually doing [in 1 Thess 4] is mixing metaphors." I notice that your discussion of this passage is embedded between two well-established metaphorical passages: the flood of Noah comparison in Matthew and the New Jerusalem passages in Revelation. We know these are metaphors not because aren't literal events (cause they clearly were and are) but because of how they are USED to draw comparisons (i.e. "this" is "that" language). The problem I see here draws upon two narratives by genre then comparing these to what Paul is using as an epistolary "instruction of the Lord" (v. 15) which they are "to speak to one another" (v. 18) as a comfort to those who were wondering about what was going to happen to those who had died prior to Jesus' return. Paul does not use metaphorical "this" is "that" language in these passages because they are not hypothetical scenarios (like the parables in Matthew), nor are they making any referenced comparison (i.e. "new" Jerusalem), but are referencing the non-hypothetical died-and-risen Lord (v. 14), a Lord actually taken up in the clouds (Matthew references), non-hypothetical people who have died in Christ (v. 15, 16), actual archangel making the "trumpet" announcement (the most likely "trumpet" metaphor here but could well be an actual trumpet v. 16), all being "snatched-away in the clouds" ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις which provides cohesive ties to the Lord who is to "come out of heaven" (v 16). The references to "heaven, clouds, air," are cohesive ties as idiomatic ways of reiterating the same concept without redundancy (purposely collocated alongside his reiterated uses of "Lord, God, Christ")--The God of Heaven (i.e. the true God, a strongly Matthean phrase) "will take back with Jesus those who have 'fallen asleep' in Him (κοιμωμένων)." (v. 13, 14 GNT)--which is the thesis being elaborated here: note the structure--supporting γὰρ (vv. 14, 15) and explanatory ὅτι (v. 16) and inferential Ὥστε (v. 17). While there is no stopping Bible scholars from drawing allusions to OT material (or even pagan material for that matter) There really is no linguistic justification per se for rendering this as a metaphor like those of the flood in Matthew, and the new Jerusalem in Revelation. Paul's wording is relayed as epistolary instructions of how the Lord's return will include those who have "died in Christ" (as far as Paul knows).
Michael Halcomb Michael there is no need to attack me personally. Characterizing me as "touting" does not prove your point. Being open with you about my background is simply open disclosure about my presuppositions and framework which gives you the best options to critique my response. Labeling me having "elementary school ...little understanding" does not corroborate your attempted rebuttal of "this for that" by merely restating your desire to deny the need for linguistic justification of metaphors. Sometimes I feel theology can make people forget the simple observation that the object we have to study in these documents is the language (i.e. linguistic justification). The labeling is merely resorting to personal degradation. This misdirects the point of my critique. The simplified definition "this for that" is exactly what you have described in your dictionary entry response. You responded with "source domain (i.e. "this") for target domain (i.e. "that")." I do appreciate that entry by the way. If you would like to dive into the meta-linguistic reasoning, e.g. Experiential/Logical/Interpersonal/Thematic/Informational, etc., for the social practice of using metaphors, nothing would motivate me more. My approach was to benefit the readers without my specific background with the principle minus the jargon. Your use of this entry attempted the jargon without the principle since you denied the principle of the critique behind it. Perfect example of metaphor is when Christ says "This is my body... this is my blood" and holds up both the bread and cup. The concrete, source domain would be the cup and bread nourishing the mortal flesh, standing for the (at that point more conceptual) target domain of the conceptual blood and body that nourish the eternal soul. The metaphor stuck with them and became more understandable after the death and resurrection. It was after this that they met again and that metaphor became "recontextualized" and more clear. "This domain" for "that domain". The problem I'm asking you to explain for me is this Michael: in the section where Christ's return is elaborated upon by Paul, what "target domain" do each of the elements point to? Metaphor is not justified simply to say that he is "borrowing imagery" because every communication does this. Every writer has several "sources" from which they borrow imagery, it's the only way we learn. This confuses the use of the term "source". A "source domain" means, as your entry identified well, that a certain item that represents a "semantic domain/field" is being utilized by the speaker as a symbol (i.e. metaphor) for another item (i.e. "semantic domain/field). I appreciate the desire to respond. I would only ask that you refrain from further personal attacks. Thank you for your time.
Michael Halcomb I see. I appreciate your reply. And if you had used the same associations to one of your colleagues at the seminary, what kind of reaction could you expect? Had our posts been reversed it's clear offense would have been taken. Though my desire was simply to engage with you. I had hoped you would submit some manner of scholarly banter with my position which you seem to have some impression I've come up with on my own. My position could be footnoted with MAK Halliday, Hasan, Lakoff and Johnson's excellent resource Metaphors We Live By, and many others. Halliday has gone so far as to examine how the entire language can be a metaphorical mode of meaning in general (what he terms "antilanguage") which was the basis of my entire MA thesis. My responses have nothing to do with one-upmanship in any fashion. Nor did the concern for "the last word" even enter my mind, but the desire for dialogue. Is dialogue so blasphemous to your intentions for this post? Your tacit denial and corresponding ultimatum for me to turn the other direction in this post looks more like a disguised cop-out to examine my position at all. While one-upmanship may be what you have associated with my post, that mentality certainly cannot be traced back to anything I had written. I've paid all the due diligence I can, Michael. I even paid close attention to your dictionary entry and applied it to a Scriptural example from the Gospel material. And all open for your examination. This is hardly one-upmanship, but represents the actual scholarly activity itself: take a position, demonstrate it, corroborate it, and open it to the examination and confirmation of others. Your posts have shown concerns to associate my work with "elementary understanding" and to have "the last word". These associations simply have nothing to do with my posts and leave me puzzled as to your intentions. In the seminaries I've been to across the country (from MO to MA), I have not run into another scholar yet who simply leaves it at "you're wrong, and you need to leave now." There is nothing my heart would love more than to teach because I love lifelong learning. My prayer is that fellowship becomes more important to your heart than the craving to exile your critical colleagues.
Michael Halcomb Out of that entire post the metaphorical use of "exile" is all you focused on? What about "dialogue"? or "antilangauge"? or the authors I mentioned: Halliday/Hasan/Lakoff? Those references are hardly rhetoric Michael. Hardly. In every post I have elaborated more of my position on this topic for you to tackle, and have ever simply asked you to look them over. As far as the medium goes Michael, this is no different than any email communication. I have had a number of profitable exchanges with this 'medium', but they only come when the person on the other end makes the commitment to fruitful discussion by focusing on fruitful topics. What I am trying to discern is your strong urge to take this privately when this is not a conversation about private matters. This conversation could help any number of onlookers with the potential to work these issues. So I have to ask what the objective was for posting this forum in the first place? discussion? dialogue? research? opinions? or what? Again Michael, there is nothing preventing fruitful dialogue in any medium except the choices of the person doing the exchange. Rhetoric between any two social peoples is inevitable. The rhetoric is all you see because it's all you're focusing on. Kindly focus on the position and critique I offered and the conversation will be more fruitful. Or have we forgotten that the Apostle Paul made some of the most earth shattering letters from prison for goodness sake; I hardly think we are in any worse position than that. Again, my prayer is for dialogue, and, lord forbid, maybe even some fellowship through all this. Giving others the chance to chime in is exactly the reason I've not taken this privately, Michael. Discussion can breed fellowship when conducted in a spirit of service and challenge for excellence. This is exactly what Christ engaged with his disciples. And what became the Christian tradition through the centuries.
JR Woods Order of Events when our Lord Returns Hello all please let me explain the Wrath that we are not appointed for in 1 Thess 5:9. Paul explains in 2 Thess 1 exactly what the wrath is he was talking about in his first letter to the Thessalonians. It is the "Fiery Furnace" (Wrath that is also called the "Furnace of Fire" (Matt 13) Wrath or the "Plague" of Zech 14:12. This Wrath that we are not appointed for comes from Jesus' mouth on the last day of the Age (7th Bowl Return). Father has designed the last day of the Age just like what is talked about in Exodus 12, 1 Kings 18, and 2 Sam 6 (spinning Whirlwinds). Who are the “TARES”? They are the “Sons of the Wicked One”. They will be Revealed after the “Wicked One is Revealed”. He is known as the False messiah. The order of events on the last day of the age are as follows: Step 1.) {TARES ARE GATHERED} The Tares are Gathered Together onto the Threshing Floor Valley of Armageddon and Jerusalem. (45 day process) (Matt 22, Rev 16, & Dan 12). This is one of the purposes of the Bowls of Wrath. (Remember Matt 22 and the key phrase found in both Matt 22 & Rev 16 "GATHER TOGETHER"). These make up most of the invited quests of Matt 22. Step 2.) {THE GATHERING OF THE WHEAT TO THE BARN} The Harvest Rapture takes place when Jesus breaks through the atmosphere over Bethlehem. However we are not "WED" yet. The Super Cell Storm Cloud that Jesus rides on will appear when He enters the atmosphere. I have over 25 verses that prove that Jesus is Revealed riding the largest storm ever seen in Israel. The Sea of Glass is on top of the storm. The storm will appear over Bethlehem just before 9PM. We are told in Isaiah 18 that Jesus Returns in the summer heat before the flower falls off of the ripening grapes. This would be around the 2nd Week of June. In mid June 9PM could also be considered: 1.) Twilight 2.) Evening Tide 3.) Time of the first watch 4.) Time of the evening sacrifice. Here are some verses that prove Jesus and His Bride will be defending Jerusalem at 9PM in the longest month of the year in regards to daylight: {Isa 17:14, Zech 14:7, Ps 90:6, Exodus 12:6, Gen 8:11, Lam 2:19} We are joined to the Lord over Bethlehem as a Wedding Procession is en-route to the Wedding Hall. The Wedding will take place in the Valley of Armageddon over NAZARETH. Step 3.) {THE TARES ARE BOUND} The Tares must be "Bound or Bind". This happens at 9PM Twilight when we kill the Tares trying to escape. But en-route, the Storm hovers over Jerusalem at 9pm (time of the evening sacrifice) to DEFEND Jerusalem. We (His Bride Army) defend what is left of the inhabitants following a 430 Day Siege of Jerusalem. (Remember Exodus 12:40-41 names the day of our Lord's Return). This of course is when Jesus splits the Mount of Olives. We the Bride Army cut-up the Tare Sacrifice at Twilight. Remember what Matt 13 says about the order and method in which the Wheat & Tares must be separated and how the Tares must be CAST OUT of the Land. This is one of the purposes of the Bowls of Wrath. Now the Storm continues to move North to the Wedding Hall location mentioned in Rev 16:16. Nazareth is the location for the Wedding. It is located in the middle of a Valley that has the following names: 1.) The Valley of Armageddon 2.) The Valley of Jezreel 3.) The Valley of Decision 4.) The Valley of Meggido 5.) The plain of Meggido 6.) The Valley of Jehoshaphat. Remember that Zech 9:14 says that the Super Cell storm will come out of the South (Bethlehem). No surprise, we are told the "Elect One" "Ruler of Israel" will COME FORTH from Bethlehem. The phrases "Come Forth" & "Go Forth" always refer to the Coming of our Lord at the end of the age not His birth. At the Wedding Hall (before the Wedding) we cut-up the Tares Sacrifice there as well. The Tares there have been trapped in the Pit for 45 days (Day 1335 - 1290) {Isa 24:22-23}. Step 4.) {TARES ARE CAST OUT OF THE KINGDOM LIKE CHAFF} At Midnight, Jesus administers the "WRATH THAT WE ARE NOT APPOINTED FOR". This represents the "Burning of the Tares" sacrifice mentioned in 1 Kings 18 and Exodus 12. The Theme of the Night is "Twilight Kill is a Midnight Meal". The Marriage takes place over Nazareth and the Birds and Beast are told by an angel to begin eating the Tare Flesh. Again, remember Exodus 12: "All Flesh MUST be ate by morning". The Birds and the Beasts will Summer and Winter on the Tare bones. Worth noting is what is found in Exodus 12:6 " The Whole Assembly of the congregation of Israel will KILL at twilight". Also note: Exodus 12:29 "...at Midnight the Lord Struck..."the Match to light the fire in a sense. 1 Kings 18 is all about the Final Showdown to see who the REAL GOD is. It involves the Tares "Bulls of Bashan" Sacrifice. The antichrist will bring down fire but our Lord will do it when everything is WET due to the worst Storm of all time. The 2 Bookends of the Day of the Lord Isaiah 1:1 thru 10:11 is entirely about the "Wrath of the Lord of Hosts". Isaiah 10:12 thru 30:33 is entirely about the "Day of His Fierce Anger". The Wrath of the Lord of Hosts is the 6th Seal thru the 6th Bowl. The Day of His Fierce Anger is simply the 7th Bowl / Last Day of the Age / Revealing of Christ/ Harvest-Rapture / Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty. Isaiah 13 (NKJV) does an excellent job of pointing this out. This chapter 13 says that the earth will shake & THE SUN AND MOON WILL GO DARK in Both the Wrath of the Lord of Hosts and in the Day of His Fierce Anger. This is exactly what we see when we look at other scriptures. This means that the 6th Seal signs and the 7th Bowl signs are BOOKENDS TO THE DAY OF THE LORD. The Left Bookend is found in Isa 2, Rev 6, and Amos 8. The Right Bookend is found in Isa 24, Joel 3, and Rev 16. Again, we must take notice that the Sun and Moon go dark twice. Now Matt 24 makes sense and our Lord's Return and Harvest occurs at His Revealing at the Right Bookend the “7th Bowl”. Do not let Isa 2 confuse you. Even though “the Lord arises to shake the earth in glory and majesty” this is talking about Jesus and MICHAEL standing up in the throne room and turning around to start the period where Father hides His face from Israel. He will no longer have pity and will no longer pass by. Which is the “LAST TRUMPET”? The Last Trumpet is held by Jesus as He is Revealed. The Last Trumpet is blown by Jesus (our Lord God King of Kings and Lord of Lords) to send forth the angels to gather the Elect Wheat. Scripture proves that the Last Trump is blown at the 7th Bowl Revealing of Jesus. Here is the proof: 1.) The 7th Trumpet is blown by the 7th Angel (Rev 11:15) 2.) Jesus blows the Last Trumpet at His Revealing (Zech 9:14). 3.) Jesus blows the Last Trumpet with a “Great Sound” which is louder than the previous 7 Trumpets. (Matt 24:31) 4.) The Lord Jesus Himself will descend with the “Trumpet of God” and the Bride that is alive at the END will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air en route to the Wedding Hall. ( 1Thes 4:16-17). 5.) The Last Trumpet blown on the Last Day is also called the “Great Trumpet” (Isa 27:12-13) 6.) Jesus will blow the Great Trumpet with a Great Sound and the noise of the Trumpet will come to the ends of the earth. (Jer 25:27). In summary, we see when the Bride is “Joined to the Lord”. It is on the last day at the last trump and is blown by the Lord God Jesus Himself. The Last Day is the 7th Bowl at the Great Battle of God Almighty. We are a Bride Army and we will kill the Tares from 9PM to 12 AM in Israel on that night. This may not be how you envisioned your Wedding Day but Father knows what He is doing. Remember, the whole assembly of the Congregation of True Israel WILL kill at Twilight. (Exodus 12:6) Is the Rapture the Harvest? We are not "Joined to the Lord" until the "Revealing of Jesus". This is what the title of this Book means. The Harvest is at the "End of the Age" at the Last Day at the Last Trump at the Revealing of Jesus Christ. Father could not make it any plainer than that. Daniel was told to rest until Day 1,335 following the Abomination of Desolation. Then he would "ARISE" to his inheritance. Micah 4 says that the Bride of Christ will immediately begin to Thresh at the Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty following her "ARISING". The Wheat and the Tares MUST grow together. If you were to stop living and be taken to Heaven you would stop growing. You will be here. The question is will you fall for the fake messiah when He is Revealed at the 5th & 6th Seal. When you are “Joined to the Lord” you “ARISE to your Inheritance”. Jesus said many of us (those In Christ) will be Martyred. "To be joined to the Lord" means that when that moment happens you will be where He is for Eternity. You cannot get raptured to Heaven years earlier but get joined to the Lord at the 7th Bowl. Please don't believe the lies of Satan even though 90 % of Preachers were taught those lies. The biggest problem the “CHURCH” has in understand the Holy Bible is that it thinks many Books & Chapters of the Holy Bible are for Gentiles and many others are for seed of Jacob Jews. There is only ONE household of God and this family is who the Holy Bible was meant for. God Bless
I’m glad you point this out. I went to a church where the Pastor believed this. Along with other unbiblical ideas. I no longer attend that church. Not because of this belief but because the Holy Spirit was telling me something isn’t right about this church.
@lorineilson7529 - Study to show that you are approved by God... I wrote a response to this video. Where do you stand now at your new Church concerning this topic? Here is my response to the video: This video is entirely too short to do the topic justice, and perhaps that is why you use generalities to attach the doctrine that you apparently do not have a grasp of. At about 00:40, you established the Pre-Trib Rapture precedent by misrepresenting it. Minor, though it is, it immediately raises red flags. Not all Pre-Trib Rapture folks see themselves forever in “heaven,” as that is not what the Bible teaches. At about 01:08, you deny scripture, saying that the BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THAT THERE WILL BE A RAPTURE. Have you read the Bible? 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says (believers) will be “caught” up to meet the Lord in the air. The word in Greek is Harpazo; however, in the Latin “rapio,” from which we get the transliteration rapture, which, like the Greek, means to seize, snatch, or catch away. Let us see, Enoch walked with God and was not [where did he go?] Elijah ends up riding a fiery chariot; why in the world would there be no such thing as rapture? At 01:40, you begin with Matthew 24:37-41 - I agree that it is not a rapture passage, though I disagree with your “left behind” analogy. With the view toward a New Heaven, New Earth, and a New Jerusalem (Revelation 21-22), this current situation is not our home. Jesus refers to the current heaven as His Father’s house (John 14:1-3), for which He has gone to prepare a place for us. Revelation explains our returning with Him in Chapter 19, following the Marriage Feast of the Lamb, to reign with Him for a thousand years (Revelation 20), which is followed by the White Throne Judgment for which the rest of the dead are raised (Revelation 20:5, 11), the old heaven and earth are destroyed. Those who are “left behind” are those “who dwell upon the earth” (Revelation 3:10). Paul recounts his desire to be with the Lord (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord). God provides the new body, identified as immortal and imperishable (1 Corinthians 15), and this begins in 1 Thessalonians Chapter four, verses thirteen through eighteen. At 03:05 - you mention 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, leaving out vv. 13-15, which allows you to be misleading. Notice in v.14 that Paul says God will bring with Him (Jesus) those who have fallen asleep (euphemism for those who have died) in Jesus. You also keep saying these believe they will live forever in heaven with Him; however, the text indicates they will “ever be” with Jesus, not necessarily forever in heaven, as Revelation 21-22 notes otherwise. Beginning at about 03:45 - You said that Paul uses mixed imagery, “…we will meet Jesus in the clouds when He returns,” as a mixing of metaphors (Paul is really good at mixing metaphors). Mosaic, Danielic, and imperial metaphors combined. The problem here is that your interpretation is inconsistent with the text. To begin with, the context is what happens to those who died in Christ before Christ returns. When you read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (which you did not do in the video), you are confused about who is meeting whom. The Church is meeting Christ, right? But which group brings the SHOUT, or the TRUMPETS, the Church or Christ? Using your imperial imagery, it is Jesus who is welcoming the Church and changing the Church, not the other way around. Paul tells the Thessalonians that their loved ones in Christ will accompany Him when He gathers the remainder of the Church (v.14). Those still alive on earth will meet the Lord in the air. The dead (nekros) will rise first; that is, the dead bodies will rise first, and then the bodies of the living. As you pointed out, Paul addresses the “body” issue in 1 Corinthians 15, which cannot inherit the kingdom of God in their current body because it is mortal and corrupt; therefore, it is changed in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, to come back to earth? No! But to join Jesus in His Father’s house (John 14:1-3), and then only for a season, because the Church will join the King of kings and Lord of lords when He returns to conquer evil and reign a thousand years on the earth (Revelation 19-20; cf., Zechariah 14; Daniel 2:40-45 & 7:13-14). The picture is actually the faithful being spared from the wrath of God (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10) because the Church is not destined for wrath (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9) in that Christ suffered that wrath for us when He took upon Himself the wrath for our sins, so that God delivers us from the kingdom of darkness, and transfers us to the kingdom of His Son (Colossians 1:13-14). At about 06:12, you said something to the effect that Jesus ushers in the New Jerusalem, the new city, the new heaven, and the new earth. Is this before Jesus reigns upon the earth for a thousand years? The rapture has nothing to do with the New Heaven, New Earth, or the New Jerusalem of Revelation, chapters twenty-one and twenty-two. In fact, the fate of the faithful and those who rejected Christ has already been determined and executed by this point. I concur that Chapter 4 is not a rapture passage, and it is not universally accepted in the Pre-Trib crowd as such. It is, however, it is a segue from the Church to the Tribulation, where we see, among other wonderful things, the 24 Elders around the Throne of God. Who are the 24 Elders, and what or who do they represent? In Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior ~
Kingdom Bound : What would be your questions? It is highly doubtful that you will find real answers to your questions either in the attached video or most of the posts though there is a few here who are surprisingly more aware than most average typical unchanged mortal humans.
Enigma I wasn’t going to respond to your question/statement however now after replaying the video I understand why you asked or rather made the statement you did. Yeah, there is nothing I need to know from you. I mainly received revelation on somethings i ask our Father in heaven for. Thanks though!
What about Jesus saying in Revelation 3:10 because you kept my command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on earth. Or 2Thessilonians 2:7, the restrainer, will be taken out of the way. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit that dwells in the heart of the believer. How can you take this out of the way, and not remove the person? So the Holy Spirit is gone but the believer is still here? 1 Thessalonians 4:16 ? Are you calling this a metaphor? The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the Trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. .... How can we comfort one another if we plan to go through the great Tribulation? He left out the Bride of Christ, the Matthew 25 parable of the wise and foolish Virgins. You post and mid trib believers are going to be shocked to the core when Christ raptures you out before the 70th week of Daniel.
The Rapture is very clearly on Judgement Day - 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10 [9] They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, [10] when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come except there be a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. 2 Thessalonians 2:3
This is something that I never imagined that I would ever be thinking or talking about in my lifetime. I am referring to the political and religious landscapes around the world and the path that both are taking right now. We have governments all around the world right now, including the United States that are mandating jabs for employers and educational institutions, as well as healthcare. The United States is being led by an incapable administration, and many of our allies are experiencing the same thing at this time. Law enforcement is being used in ways that were never meant to be used by our governments to start enforcing their mandates, or declaring parents who are vocally expressing their discontent about their local school systems. I would humbly encourage everyone to take off their blinders and look at what is going on around the world. DO NOT follow any one politician or political party or religion, or religious figure. Also, do not put your faith in the media, and that you are receiving accurate and reliable information. They will be part of the great deception that has already started. The current administration in the U.S. is just the beginning of it all, and is about to get dramatically worse in the next political cycle. The writing is on the walls, please take time to read it, but not to long. For those that are in Christ, you will already know what I am referring to. There are those that believe in God, but are not in Christ yet. Get saved now.
This present administration and their co horts are being brought down. We are headed for The Great Awakening .The Illuminati, Khazarian Mafia, Deep State, Cabal, Satanist are being eradicated. We will see the biggest move of God ever.
This is why I refuse to attend any church. People all teach something different. The Bible tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling; that is what I am doing.
@@user-kq5qp6dh8l Yet, I think as a believer and disciple of Jesus you must careful to obey scripture. It's fine to shun those liberal and legalistic church bodies But the scripture shows us a definite pattern from the early church..."And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and prayers."(Acts 2:42) "Whenever you come together, each of you has a ....." (1 Corinthians 14:26).. "not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you the Day approaching" (Hebrews 10:25)
@@christophergibson7155 that was the fledgling called out: Church is a wrong translation , that’s where Satan got in on the Word . Correct is : called out! So would you fellowship with the Crazy charasmaniacs . Pentecostal African (churches) buildings Are sick with demonic spirits. The Africans do not let go of there Juju And black magic: So church…. Bricks and mortar. Eklesia: cannot be translated brick building : The called out is correct.
@@user-kq5qp6dh8l Yes, I agree that church means, "the called out ones". But that means called "out of the world". "If you were of the world, the world would love it's own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world therefore the world hates you." (Jn. 15:19) Not all churches (called out ones) are evil as you are implying. Those that teach the doctrines of Christ, holiness, living by the Holy Spirit, preaching the gospel to the lost, etc... are the true church contending for the faith once delivered to the saints.
@@christophergibson7155 called out of brick buildings and synagogues of satan. Good luck on getting possessed when your in the Pentecostal temples. Jesus never went into a so called church! Answer that Jesus said: follow me. It’s all in the Word. The primitive called out only had sayings passes on , we have the full canon. The Holy Ghost is the teacher
I believe we will be rapture based on what Paul wrote in his epistles. I think the people that are left for the tribulation will have a chance to repent and be saved. I have reason to know that Jesus is coming back soon! In my life time He will come back! Everday I thank the Father for Jesus who is my redeemer. Thank you Jesus for the cross!
I used to be really into the 'Rapture' Beth but lets face it; IF your name isn't written in the Lamb's Book of Life and your not saved, you won't be 'taken out of the way' either. IF there is a Rapture, I'm convinced that the majority of the people taken away will not have believed in it at all but they professed their Faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus while there are so many that say they believe in This but say little about Jesus. IF the Rapture doesn't happen when 'they' think it will they may fall away and become so bitter they may betray 'others' what profess their believe in Jesus. The only thing we can do is make sure your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life or Jesus above all else and EVERYTHING else.
You are wrong... Paul never wrote that... men twisted it ... At the last trumpet - Revelation 11:15 - 1 Corinthians 15:52. Don't be so Biblically illiterate - not good!!
@@roseychicka2298 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Yeah, so I agree... I can't understand how the "rapture theory" types use Paul as their documentation - but then ignore his hard statement that a return to Jesus will not happen until after the antichrist is on earth and claiming to be God... makes no sense! God bless you!
The issue is, what am I doing now? -- and where am I today, living before God's face? We have many exhortations in the Scriptures that are more pressing for me personally than to think about tomorrow. There is a lot we don't understand -- God doesn't spell everything out for us, and we may all be very surprised on that day. "Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me."
Anyone who discusses this should use compassion. Many people believe the end is kinda close. So believing in the rapture is very comforting, because it is so frightening to think that we or our children will go through the holocaust of the tribulation. Also, all the prophetic books have a call to action, so whichever position you espouse, please include in that message how it should call us to live right now, and where we can find comfort and security.
1 Timothy 5:24-25 24 Some men’s sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. 25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.
So I’m to believe God makes the Church go through the tribulation, which is the wrath of God, and THEN brings His Church to the wedding banquet with Jesus? Beating up the bride before the wedding seems kind of odd, don’t ya think?
God people always go through tribulations you ain’t special to be taken out of here. You can believe all you want you the church going to be here million of Christians was killed back in the dark ages and it will happen again you ain’t special.
I would really hate for my mom to go through the great tribulation she already been through enough she most beautiful woman i ever know with a heart for Jesus I pray that there is a rapture im not afraid of the great tribulation I more worry about my mom and the people I care about that go through it and God blessed....
Awgust Streaty, Jesus said to watch (be faithful and repent) and pray always to be counted worthy to escape all the things coming and stand before the Son of man. And you’re correct that Rev 3:10 shows Jesus rewarding a faithful church by promising to keep the away from the great tribulation. He said that he would keep them away from the TIME of testing that’s coming on the WHOLE inhabited world to test EVERYONE dwelling on earth, which is clearly only possible with something like a pre-great-trib Rapture to heaven. And remember that Rom 11:25-26 says that Israel is hardened until the fullness of Gentiles comes in, and in this way _all Israel_ shall be saved. That is seen in Rev 7 where angels restrain the great tribulation a little longer during an Israelite revival while raptured church celebrate their entry into heaven.
I only listen to those that get this right, if they get this right they'll be right on other issues(good job young man, may the lord bless you for spreading the truth)
For a decade or more, I was a fervent "raptureist". Then, when in a bible college preparing for the ministry, I was told by my college instructors to THINK and PROVE every doctrine...especially the "rapture" doctrine. Theological colleges are supposed to teach early church history and customs, Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic renderings...that particular study in college lasted a full year learning the way of proper interpretation...many students flunked out. Within 2-years I finally admitted to myself and others that I had been duped into believing a "doctrine" that never existed until the 1830s, never taught in the Early Church onward. The Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic could not support the rapture or its surrounding false teaching in any manner. Invented/created "truths" are not truths from the Lord as they are continually proven false with each earthly hardship in America and the Middle East. The hysteria continues to come and go so where is the truth?
Good to hear you young man about Rapture. Why You didn’t mention that the word, “ Rapture “ i# not in the Bible? Many sincere, but mistaken Christians do mention this point that the word called “Rapture” is not there in the Bible. Then they also shouldn’t believe in “Trinity” because this Word also not there in the Bible. Concept is there for both Words. We have to ask Lord Holy Spirit, to teach us Th3 Word. He will teach and guide us in all Truth. In short, I will recommend every on3 to read Matthew 17:1-9. It fully explains in details about Rapture..
If there is no rapture then why would Jesus say in Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. ( Instead of saying escape wouldn't he say pray that you're worthy to endure ? )
Did Daniel escape the mouths of the lions? Was Daniel in the lions den? Did Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego escape the flames of the fiery furnace? Were Shadrach, Meshaach and Abednego in the fiery furnace and who was the fourth man in there with them? Was Noah on the earth when it was flooded? Did Noah escape the danger of the flood? Why was not Noah raptured off the earth before the flood instead of remaining on earth to ride it out? Jesus said it would be as it was in the days of Noah. I will take Jesus over anyone else; it will be as the days of Noah.
@@tinac5468 Of course! The point is that when Jesus describes what the event from Luke 21:36 will be like He states that it will be as in the days of Noah when the wicked were removed (taken) and the righteous remained on earth. Quite a difference from those who teach the rapture. One might also note that in Revelation 11 the wrath of God comes after the tribulation and after the two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem. The scriptures in Revelation 11 give a completely different order of events. You are forced to reject and twist scripture to teach a pre-trib rapture, and many are more than happy to do so. Again Revelation 11 states that after God's wrath is executed the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ. You do want to be in God's kingdom don't you? Again, as it was in the days of Noah to remain on earth is the thing to do; just as Jesus described.
The trump mentioned in all 4 of these Bible passages is the same trump , the last trump { the 7th trump } . This is so easy , even a small child can understand .
Here's are goods doc. Understanding Ezekiel Dispensational premillennialism can accommodate all the details in Ezekiel's many prophecies by giving them their most literal and normal interpretation. Chapters 33-48 are primarily eschatological and reveal a restoration for Israel/Judah that is future, final, purposeful, and preparatory for the advent of the final state of all creation. Passages in Ezekiel and elsewhere reveal at least seven characteristics of the kingdom of God. First, the kingdom is literal and will have Jerusalem as its capital (Ezek 36:33-38; Ps 48; Isa 2:1-4; Obad 12-21; Zech 14:1-21). The king will be a divine-human person who reigns as a descendant of David and has divine authority (37:24-28; Isa 11:1-9; 32:1-2; Jer 23:1-6). Second, the government of the kingdom will be theocratic. The divine-human king will reign as God's personal representative (Ezek 34:11-24). He will have the government upon his shoulders (Isa 9:6) and receive dominion and glory (Dan 7:14). He will reign from God's holy hill called Zion (Ps 2:6; Isa 60:1-14) and will perform all legislative, judicial, and executive functions of government (Ezek 34:17-24; 37:24; Isa 33:17-24). Third, the administration of the kingdom will be performed by a spiritual nobility made up of Old Testament believers (Ezek 37:24-25; Dan 7:18, 22, 27), the church (1 Cor 6:2; Rev 3:21; 20:6), and martyrs from the tribulation (Rev 20:4). Fourth, while the kingdom will have a physical manifestation, its character is spiritual. It will be initiated, operated, and maintained by the Spirit of God (Ezek 36:24-28; Jer 23:5-6; 31:34; Rom 8:1-39). The Spirit will be in individuals to empower them and to grant knowledge, wisdom, and direction (Jer 31:31-34). Fifth, the ethical conduct of the king, the rulers, and the citizens will give evidence of the spiritual character of this kingdom (Ezek 36:27, 31; 37:24; Jer 33:14-16). God's law will go forth from Jerusalem, which will be the hub of a great worldwide administrative system (Isa 2:1-4; Zech 8:20-23). The spiritual character of the kingdom also will result in physical changes in and around Jerusalem, such as topography (Zech 14:3-4), climate (Isa 32:15-16; 35:7), agricultural productivity (Isa 35:1-5; Amos 9:13), radical improvements in human health (Isa 35:5-6; 65:20-23; Zech 8:4), and even in animal behavior (Isa 11:6-9; 65:25). Sixth, the ruler of the kingdom will unite the offices of prophet, priest, and king. He will be a priest after the order of Melchizedek (Ps 110; Zech 3:8-10; 6:9-15; Heb 7:1-27). He will set up a central sanctuary, and all nations will come to it (Ezek 37:26-28; Zech 8:9, 21; 14:9, 16). The glory of God in the sanctuary will signal his presence (Ezek 43:1-7), and sacrificial worship will be his memorial (Ezek 46:1-24). Seventh, the water of life will flow freely from the rebuilt sanctuary (Ezek 47:1-12). This water will provide healing and produce the trees of healing and blessing for all nations (Rev 22:1-3) and signal the removal of the curse of sin. Lamar Cooper Introduction: Commentary on Ezekiel New American Commentary
Ezekiel 13:20 KJV - Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, (bowls of wrath) but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the *day of Christ* is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for *that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,* and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thessalonian 2:2-3 Yahusha will 'take up' His saints on LAST TRUMPET, saving them from 7 BOWLS OF WRATH. 1 Cor 15:51-52 All saints whom raptured will be on sea of glass witnessing 7 bowls of wrath poured on earth. Rev 15-16 Then, the wedding supper of the lamb. After the wedding, Yahusha will return to earth on white horse to judge and rule earth for a thousand years. Rev 19
Thank you, thank you. People have no ideal how dangerous this false doctrine is. When Satan come down with wrath those people taken away by that doctrine will fail in their belief in Elohim all together and be more than willing to bow to Satan to acquire his false peace. His children have been preparing and are ready. If you are just now hearing this, quickly get ready. Remember your armor, call on His name (YHWH) Staff in hand shoes on feet ready to move. Have ears to hear and eyes to see so that He can lead you to safety and hide you in His secret place. Many who call themselves His lack faith. They don't believe in Yahs mighty hand moving among us today. Pray for them. His people hear His voice and obey. If you are not listening how will you obey?
us believers dont need no tribulation to get saved .. we are already saved .. this is gods time to deal with israel and the unsaved .. there is a rapture .. and not appointed to wrath ..
Study church history, particularly the patristic era and especially the ante nicene period and you should find, through careful study that the majority of the early church taught a post-tribulational premillenialism. Dispensationalism and the teaching of pre-tribulationism was practically not even heard of in any popular form until about the 1830's. The bible teaches a singular glorious appearing of Jesus Christ. I think you get your theology from your pastor or church that tell you this rather than studying it through yourself. It doesn't mean that they are not saved, but simply that they are incorrect on this subject I think. Take care
The tribulation is the wrath of satan against christianity and God's wrath is only for the ones who have the mark of the beast. There is no doubt that the secret rapture is a false teaching I'm absolutely certain about that. I discovered that from reading the bible and prayer.
Proverbs 10:30 "The righteous will never be removed, But the wicked will not inhabit the earth." Proverbs 2:22 "But the wicked will be cut off from the earth, And the unfaithful will be uprooted from it." Luke 17:34-37 does specify who is taken in a "rapture". In verse 37 the apostles ask where the one is taken. Eagles are scavengers and apparently where the body of the one is taken is found by scavengers.
Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch’s translation and Elijah’s being “caught up” as previews of the Rapture. “For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up.”
This has been a major issue for me since 1999 when I read the bible. But I do believe that Christians are going to be going up to the sky to meet Jesus and come back for the battle of armageddon. It will happen in a day as I understand.
Just like the Jewish elders couldn’t guess and understand the prophecies regarding Jesus, I don’t believe we can either. What really ends up happening can be completely outside of our understanding so rapture or no rapture we will not know until these things pass.
Courtney B, first century Jewish leaders missed the Lord's visitation, and the vast majority of the nation went down with them. I believe that Jesus warned us of the same danger when he said to watch because you don't know when the Son of man will come. And Jesus expounded on this in Luke 21:34-36 where he warned everyone to repent from sin, to watch and pray always to be accounted worthy to escape all the things that are coming to pass and stand before the Son of man. But the vast majority of church leaders don't understand the rapture escape, so the vast majority of the church will be left behind, IMHO.
I agree, Matt 24 should not be used as a passage to support the rapture. 1 Thes 4 & 1 Cor 15, however, I believe should be taken for what the text says. Whenever we say "what Paul is really saying", then we are pushing our interpretation into the text, rather than letting the text tell us what God says. That's risky. As far as Rev 4, I've never thought of that as a support for rapture either.
Yes, unfortunately, common sense wont get you to heaven. Even though the "rapture" isn't mentioned, it is very biblical. I don't know what bible you are learning from, but much of the debate on this issue is because it is so many people believe that its biblical. They just don't agree when. Don't worry if its true or not. Just be ready :)
So i've been studying pre tribulation and mid tribulation and found something very critical to the pre trib group. Their entire doctrine seems to hinge on the interpretation of the word apostasia as referenced in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. They hinge on the idea that it should mean "to physically depart". In every verse this word is used in greek, its always in reference to defecting or rebelling. There are referenced made by the pre trib group such as Acts 12:10 and 2 Cor. 12:8, in which case the greek words used are either aposti, or apesti. These words are derivatives of aphistēmi, which means to physically leave. So they are hoping that everyone can make an exception for the meaning of the word in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 to mean physically leave, instead of defect or rebel like in every other verse in which apostasia is used. If we keep consistent with scripture and have apostasia mean to defect or rebel, then what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians completely dismantles the idea that people will be taken away before the anti Christ is revealed. And in the case that you think Paul is wrong, then you must also agree that the bible is NOT inherent.
I agree with you on the Rapture of the Church. The Bible only talks about the Resurrection which will be at the end of the Tribulation. Why would believers want to leave early and not stay to convert some new believers during their trouble. That is what we are suppose to be doing anyway. I want as many people as possible to get into God's Kingdom. I have already ask God to leave me here if there is an early Rapture of the Church so I can convert people to Jesus Christ.
Williamv Godfrey : You are correct in most of your post in that there is no "rapture" as often in deception taught as being "prior to" or "during" the Tribulation and anyone who falls for that non-Biblical deception is directly cursed and anyone who makes the fatal mistake of teaching the false idea to others not only falls under the warned curses but even worse have their names permanently removed from the "Book of Life" for their actions. There is even now some who believe themselves now saved who are unfortunately not saved leading to some who were very surprised in the end and will be again should their history now not change. God has given many a possible reprieve in grace by offering them the chance to alter their past and make different choices in this time right now. Also, while on the topic of much taught deceptions among men, the two witnesses are busy with their actual primary purpose here on Earth from the 3 1/2 year middle point of the Tribulation all the way until the very end of the Tribulation where their much welcomed and very long time waited deaths is itself the very event which official closes and ends the 7 year Tribulation simultaneously sealing the fate of what happens next for each person 3 1/2 days later. In congrast, a great many churches falsely teach that the two witnesses are active from the beginning to the middle of the Tribulation which is a non-Biblical deception meant to force additional support for the great many other false narrative that is all part of the Great Deception -- the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture, which you spoke upon, is a trap far more dangerous than most unchanged mortal humans can comprehend. Incidentally, the "Resurrection" greatly misunderstood often by mortal men who have often only the perspective of the Earth alone and usually do not comprehend or understand what is actually being discussed and like the rapture is not what, when, nor for the purpose that most people think. It might be helpful to know who you are speaking with now else these words might make little sense to you so in wisdom understand Hebrews 13:2 and Amos 3:7 and then pay attention closely to what is written in what is now John 21:18-24 as well as also Revelation 1:9, Revelation 10:5-11, Revelation 11:1-3. So also does Daniel 12 discuss the same important point and yes you could say I have had a few more years than most to understand these matters. ;-)
Williamv Godfrey, nobody in their right mind would rather endure the torture of the worst years in human history on Earth rather than be honored to accept God’s invitation to escape that and attend the marriage supper of the Lamb around the God’s Throne in Heaven.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 : The only "madness", as you posted, would be found in your own failure to trust what is written in the Bible or worse yet of your own lack of faith in God regardless whether you are aware. Understand that when I speak, it is without exception always in perfect agreement with both of these! This you can be absolutely certain. If on any point you waiver or fail to understand, it is upon that same point you have fallen to deception, standing not with He who sent me!
@@biblehistoryscience3530 : "worsr years" -- God has made no invitation to escape the Tribulation whatsoever but has made certain promoses of help getting through it as well as comments with regard that death on Earth (which you really should not fear) is nothing to be concerned about and those who do die during the Tribulation are far "more blessed". By the way, the Tribulation is not the worst and has nothing to do with God. There is a time coming however that is far worse which does indeed have to do with God and unlike the Tribulation has no such escape in death as is possible during the Tribulation. Unfortunately you don't have any idea what is actually coming or why and combined with false deceptive teachings keeping you ignorant of these subjects all xombined with common mortal fears keeps you from seeing or understanding any of the bigger picture and also unfortunately seperates you from God. unfortunately
Forgive me for I am not a seminarian, nor am I an expert at end times. I do want to ask a couple of questions first. My first question comes from the idea in the Bible which talks about how (Matt. 24:21) there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now - and never to be equaled again. . .when will this take place? We've had the Holocaust, and many other wicked times, even recently, but this says that it will be unequaled in all of history. I feel this is a hard one to argue against. I understand that you are not arguing that there will not be a tribulation, but why, which is my second question, is it then that when we read from Luke (21:36) Jesus says to be on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man? What are they/we supposed to escape from? Death? If that is so, what does He mean if He wants us to escape death? And further more how do we escape it without being raptured, if we are even to be saved from death, or the wrath of the tribulation? Enoch comes to mind, who is the first to receive this rapture of which you (and forgive me for any disrespect that you might think I have) so mockingly push your nose up to. I only say this because of your demeanor. You are talking about a subject that is very crucial in the Church today, and you act like it's a joke. Let us also look at 1 Thess 1:8-10, "The Lord's message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia - your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, for they themselves report that what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to (catch this) WAIT for his Son from (Where?) heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the (look back at Luke 21:36) coming wrath. Did any of these disciples, save John, escape the wrath to come? No, they were all martyred, even Paul. Surely, as maybe your argument would be, some did escape, but if you compare Luke 21:36 to this passage they didn't escape the worst time in history and I wouldn't try to make the argument that they escaped the worst time in their history because that's not what the Bible says. We now move on to you, and Dr. Ben Witherington's "new" (new to me at least) idea about how Noah and his family were not raptured, but were "left behind." Is it really better to be left behind as you so (again) mockingly said? Let's see this example from the real picture that Jesus gives. The Bible tells us that in the days of Noah there was no one, zero, righteous before God except Noah (and family) so in order for Noah and his family to be saved they had to build an ark to float, on top, out of the way of the wrath of God, not left behind, or in a submarine (as your idea seems to insist). Your assessment about Noah and his family being left behind is false. Why is it false? Because they were raptured "caught up" or "taken away" from the wrath of God, they were not left. Being left means they stayed and the others (the wicked) left. They made a boat that placed them on top of the flooded earth, they were not in a (again) submarine, going through the waters. God brought them up, out, raptured, and brought them back down after the land was dried enough for them. Your idea has no stand. Jesus was talking about how bad it was during the days of Noah, the same Jesus tells us before he returns it will be the worst in history. How do you answer the fact that Noah and the ark were lifted up above the earth, and on top of the waters, escaping the wrath that came? You can't, and your stance has now weight. What you and your school did, it seems, is tried to go around it and make up a nightmare scenario for any who do not believe in a rapture. Your idea also expels the idea of the sudden coming of Jesus, and pushes to the side the need to be and to get people saved and sanctified.
I am not OP, but (I think), like you, I was raised in a tradition that taught the rapture. I stopped believing in the rapture because it's not in the Bible. It's the bad people who are taken, not the Christians. Matthew 24 tells us who will be taken and who will be left, and also uses the flood as the analogy/comparison. "37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." --Matthew 24:37-39. It says very clearly, that the bad people were the ones taken away. They were taken away by death on a mass scale. This will happen again in Revelation Ch 14. "18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs." --Revelation 14:18-20 Revelation 14 also overlaps with the parable of the wheat and the tares, where both were allowed to grow up together, and the weeds were then harvested first and thrown into the fire. I challenge you to show me anything in Revelation, prior to Ch14, where there is any kind of taking up. As for when the great tribulation will occur; it hasn't happened yet, and yes, it will be worse than WWII, Islam, the Mongols, and all the worst horrors which have occurred all throughout history until now, and then. No, it hasn't happened yet, and no, we don't know when it will happen, but it looks like it will be precipitated by an asteroid striking the Earth (Revelation 8:8-9). We are not going to be beamed up to Heaven to escape these horrors. Everyone needs to face the truth. No church taught the rapture prior to the 1800s, when it was popularized by John Nelson Darby. You can look it up.
A proverb says: "there is no worse blind than the one who does not want to see." Many do not agree that the rapture exists. Those of the kingdom are now very comfortable, but that will not last long! No wonder the Bible says "he who has an ear, let him hear." Because many will not be able to listen and understand.
This young man has a hard time believing what the bible says. The rapture is an actual event to come. It’s timing may be debatable (pre, mid, post, etc) but no one should doubt or teach it’s not actually going to happen. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall raises first (implying that those who are still alive will rise immediately next): then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP (Rapture) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord (where?) in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-4
1 Thess 1:10 "delivers us from the Wrath to come" 1 Thess 4:17 "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, & thus we shall always be with the Lord." 1 Thess 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thess 2:1 "our gathering together to Him". 2 Thess 1:3, "Let no one in any way decieve you, for unless the apostasy (Apostasia = departure) comes first, & the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction." 2 Thess 2:4 "he who now restrains (Holy Spirit of whom we are sealed with at the moment of salvation) until he is taken out of the way"... the messages to the churches in Revelation tell us that some churches are assured to not suffer the Wrath of God as a gift. Matthew tells us this as well.. I have over 600 pages of study on this subject and I assure you what this man speaks is not true! I have studied pre trib, mid trib & post trib... the latter two make no sense when you do a complete study. The Matthew 24:37-41 speaks of the 2nd coming where the ones left are believers and the ones taken are unbelievers just like in the days of Noah where Noah & his family repopulated the earth and the evil ones were swept away in the flood (taken out).. the believers left will enter the Millennial reign of Christ to repopulate the earth. This is not the rapture... but the end of the Great tribulation... there is tribulation and then Great tribulation.. they are different and that is where many people get confused. People also become confused with the Wrath of God and the Day of the Lord. Message me if you want more detailed info.
Excellent book (I’ve had 4, given 3 away since 1988: “The meaning of the Millenium” 4 authors: Each present their eschatological view. Next 3 sections, there is a counterpoint by the other 3. This cycle continues for all 4 viewpoints, with the books author as an ‘interlocutor’ or ‘moderator’. You’ll need your Bible with you on each section. This video starts off in all the wrong places. He tries to circle back, but his assessment of Pre-mil/Pre-Trib does great injustice (oh BTW, I hold to a “Realized Millennium” viewpoint
this was taught in the Firsty century 1 Thess 4 and WE that are alive and remain. Paul expected the rapture in his life time. before the temple was destroyed in 70 AD
Please don’t put words in Paul’s mouth. Respectfully. Please .. Paul who wrote by revelation about what the Spirit says about the end times 2nd Tim .. He knew he would be long gone before these days . In which we live .. Paul stated that there must be things to happen before the day of the Lord 2nd thess ..
It would be great to see the Asbury/NT Wright/traditional protestant crowd join with Jonathan Welton/new covenant crowd on this particular topic where there is deep agreement
Ok, I saw another video that stated that there will be no pre-tribulation rapture. This preacher referred to biblical verses to support his teachings. But after listening to your version, I'm skeptical. I've never heard that said about John on Patmos island, how people think he was raptured while having a vision and therefore, we believe we'll be raptured likewise. You're the first I've heard say that. You lost me right there. I still believe there won't be a PT rapture, but it's based on biblical principles, not the disparaging statement you made.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, (bowls of wrath) but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the *day of Christ* is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for *that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,* and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thessalonian 2:2-3 Yahusha will 'take up' His saints on LAST TRUMPET, saving them from 7 BOWLS OF WRATH. 1 Cor 15:51-52 All saints whom raptured will be on sea of glass witnessing 7 bowls of wrath poured on earth. Rev 15-16 Then, the wedding supper of the lamb. After the wedding, Yahusha will return to earth on white horse to judge and rule earth for a thousand years. Rev 19
Matt 24:39 "took(strongs 142) them all away(strongs 142 Airo)". Airo - to remove, to carry away. The wicked were removed from the earth, and Noah etal were left behind. vs 40 "one taken(strongs 3880 Paralambano) the other left(strongs 863 Aphiemi)." Paralambano - to take with one's self, to join to one's self; Aphemi - to send away, to leave, go way from one, abandon. So NO, The context of the verse is not that you want to be left behind and abandoned when Christ returns. I dont accept the Rapture teachings myself, but the verses in Matthew are clearly not saying that you would want to be left behind, regardless.
Anthony M, how could Jesus have been describing the second coming after the great tribulation when he said one is taken and another left behind from their bed and workplace, since all the detail of that time refute that interpretation? For example, Jesus said the world will hate and kill Christians, and many will fall away and betray one another, and love will grow cold, and Christians won't be able to buy or sell, and they will be under a global death sentence.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 I am not quite sure what your response is in reference to. The video is not telling the truth when it claims the passages of Matt 24:39,40 indicate that it is better to be left behind in the scenario. It claims that you *want* to be left behind, when the Greek implies *abandonment* instead. When I move to a new house, I (Paralambano) what I want to keep and (Aphiemi) the rest behind.
@debiwhelan8382 - Here is a counter to this video and its denial of Rapture in the Bible: This video is entirely too short to do the topic justice, and perhaps that is why you use generalities to attach the doctrine that you apparently do not have a grasp of. At about 00:40, you established the Pre-Trib Rapture precedent by misrepresenting it. Minor, though it is, it immediately raises red flags. Not all Pre-Trib Rapture folks see themselves forever in “heaven,” as that is not what the Bible teaches. At about 01:08, you deny scripture, saying that the BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THAT THERE WILL BE A RAPTURE. Have you read the Bible? 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says (believers) will be “caught” up to meet the Lord in the air. The word in Greek is Harpazo; however, in the Latin “rapio,” from which we get the transliteration rapture, which, like the Greek, means to seize, snatch, or catch away. Let us see, Enoch walked with God and was not [where did he go?] Elijah ends up riding a fiery chariot; why in the world would there be no such thing as rapture? At 01:40, you begin with Matthew 24:37-41 - I agree that it is not a rapture passage, though I disagree with your “left behind” analogy. With the view toward a New Heaven, New Earth, and a New Jerusalem (Revelation 21-22), this current situation is not our home. Jesus refers to the current heaven as His Father’s house (John 14:1-3), for which He has gone to prepare a place for us. Revelation explains our returning with Him in Chapter 19, following the Marriage Feast of the Lamb, to reign with Him for a thousand years (Revelation 20), which is followed by the White Throne Judgment for which the rest of the dead are raised (Revelation 20:5, 11), the old heaven and earth are destroyed. Those who are “left behind” are those “who dwell upon the earth” (Revelation 3:10). Paul recounts his desire to be with the Lord (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord). God provides the new body, identified as immortal and imperishable (1 Corinthians 15), and this begins in 1 Thessalonians Chapter four, verses thirteen through eighteen. At 03:05 - you mention 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, leaving out vv. 13-15, which allows you to be misleading. Notice in v.14 that Paul says God will bring with Him (Jesus) those who have fallen asleep (euphemism for those who have died) in Jesus. You also keep saying these believe they will live forever in heaven with Him; however, the text indicates they will “ever be” with Jesus, not necessarily forever in heaven, as Revelation 21-22 notes otherwise. Beginning at about 03:45 - You said that Paul uses mixed imagery, “…we will meet Jesus in the clouds when He returns,” as a mixing of metaphors (Paul is really good at mixing metaphors). Mosaic, Danielic, and imperial metaphors combined. The problem here is that your interpretation is inconsistent with the text. To begin with, the context is what happens to those who died in Christ before Christ returns. When you read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (which you did not do in the video), you are confused about who is meeting whom. The Church is meeting Christ, right? But which group brings the SHOUT, or the TRUMPETS, the Church or Christ? Using your imperial imagery, it is Jesus who is welcoming the Church and changing the Church, not the other way around. Paul tells the Thessalonians that their loved ones in Christ will accompany Him when He gathers the remainder of the Church (v.14). Those still alive on earth will meet the Lord in the air. The dead (nekros) will rise first; that is, the dead bodies will rise first, and then the bodies of the living. As you pointed out, Paul addresses the “body” issue in 1 Corinthians 15, which cannot inherit the kingdom of God in their current body because it is mortal and corrupt; therefore, it is changed in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, to come back to earth? No! But to join Jesus in His Father’s house (John 14:1-3), and then only for a season, because the Church will join the King of kings and Lord of lords when He returns to conquer evil and reign a thousand years on the earth (Revelation 19-20; cf., Zechariah 14; Daniel 2:40-45 & 7:13-14). The picture is actually the faithful being spared from the wrath of God (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10) because the Church is not destined for wrath (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9) in that Christ suffered that wrath for us when He took upon Himself the wrath for our sins, so that God delivers us from the kingdom of darkness, and transfers us to the kingdom of His Son (Colossians 1:13-14). At about 06:12, you said something to the effect that Jesus ushers in the New Jerusalem, the new city, the new heaven, and the new earth. Is this before Jesus reigns upon the earth for a thousand years? The rapture has nothing to do with the New Heaven, New Earth, or the New Jerusalem of Revelation, chapters twenty-one and twenty-two. In fact, the fate of the faithful and those who rejected Christ has already been determined and executed by this point. I concur that Chapter 4 is not a rapture passage, and it is not universally accepted in the Pre-Trib crowd as such. It is, however, it is a segue from the Church to the Tribulation, where we see, among other wonderful things, the 24 Elders around the Throne of God. Who are the 24 Elders, and what or who do they represent? In Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior ~
Eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building, and getting married are NOT sins. I don't believe Jesus was teaching a parable, or was talking about sin, or speaking only to Jews. I believe Jesus was saying life will be good. At the end of the tribulation, life is NOT good. I see famine (Rev 6:8, Matt 24:7), not eating. I see drought (Rev 11:6) and bitter water (Rev 8:11) rather than drinking. I see hyperinflation (Rev 6:6) rather than buying and selling. I see earthquakes (Matt 24:7), huge meteorites striking the earth (Rev 8:8-10), excessive heat (Rev 16:19), no sunlight (Rev 8:12) and violent storms (Rev 11:15, Luke 21:25) rather than planting and building. I see love growing cold rather than marriage (Matt 24:12). At the end of the tribulation, the whole world is affected (Rev 3:10) and everybody is hiding in a cave (Rev 6:15-17) and freaking out (Luke 21:26). One taken, one left is a pre-trib event without a resurrection (dead bodies - Luke 17:37, Matt 24:28). 1 Thes 4 is a post-trib event with a resurrection. There is only one resurrection (John 6:39-54, 11:24, Rev 20:4-6). Maranatha!
OneTakenDotNet, you’re correct that Jesus’ description of the days of Noah are totally different from what Revelation says the end of the great tribulation and Wrath of God will be like. Jesus also described one taken and one left from a bed and workplace, which post-tribs claim is the gathering of tares, but that would mean saints are sleeping and working with the wicked people who took the mark and kill saints, which also makes no sense.
@@rick_h, yeah, I don't recall anyone explaining how the saints are sleeping with Satan's wicked seed, and even right up to their gathering at Armageddon. It obviously makes no sense.
Noah was taken out of danger, he was delivered (saved) from the flood. Sinners were swept away, they were left behind to die. Jude1:14,15...Jesus returning with His saints(raptured believers) to earth to execute judgement.
It's the truth that anybody who says there is no rapture won't go in the rapture because Jesus instructed us to believe, repent, watch and pray always to be found worthy to escape.
If you'll prayfully study these three scriptures, with the presence of our Holy Spirit, you'll understand more-better. Pre-tribulation rapture rescue is a pulpit doctrine. Woe unto ye pastors..... Daniel 12: 1,2,3 Psalms 110:1 II THESSALONIANS 2: 1 THROUGH 3
"Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. (NAU) Mat 24.40-41; I realize that Asbury, for the most part doesn't believe in the Rapture or the end times scenarios that are out there. Revelation becomes a metaphor, yet all the specific prophecies in the Old Testament are seen as actual insight into future events, why not Daniel and Revelation? Israel thought the thinking processes of the body where found in the kidneys, yet later we found that it is the brain. So we not believe the brain isn't the place of thinking, just because the knowledge of this didn't come to us later in time? Why so extreme in this area? It may not be exactly how the end times persons see it, but there is something, after all Enoch and Elijah were both raptured, that was well before the 1800's.
NT Wright denies penal substitution which is the heart of the gospel. A man that does not understand the core component of how we are saved should not be followed.
Your presentation uses no support from the Biblical text to support your view. It seems that your argument is based on your implicit rejection and feelings about the teaching of rapture. It is more convincing if we always use the Bible as the authority to determine the correctness or incorrectness of any doctrine.
marketing gphotons : The Bible is indeed the correct place to go! Feel free to go ahead and pick any verse or passage pertaining to what people think of as "the rapture" and you will find quickly that every single instance without exception all has surrounding context and embedded phrases which directly tie in to the time immediately after the Tribulation has completely concluded! There is no exception whatsoever! Sadly, there is many fools who do not know what is actually written and base all they know upon what they were falsely told non-Biblical in the many churches and synagogues out there instead of actually truly reading what is written. To help fix the false narrative, many are trained to use synonymously terms which are in reality the furthest opposite that the Bible itself goes to great lengths to define openly and directly and yet sadly many people who do not know what it is that they do not know, walking in ignorance and deception! In the case of the "pre-tribulation" or "during the Tribulation" rapture, both of these ideas are absolutely non-Biblical and in the case of the former is so very dangerous as part of the "Great Deception", it comes with some very serious curses upon all who have made the fatal mistake of falling to that deception which is even more the deadly to those who further make the mistake of teaching any others of the matter that they too should fall to the same deception --- for these, not only the prior curses spoken but also the total and complete removal of their names from the "Book of Life" as well in consequence and for the protection of God's actual elect. Be very careful and remember always that you are not alone as Hebrews 13:2 and Amos 3:7 imparts important wisdom, so also a little piece of wisdom for all to read and realize further John 21:18-24, Revelation 1:9, Revelation 10:5-11, and Revelation 11:3 ;-)
@@enigmagroup413 what about Revelation 3:10? I will also keep you from the hour of trial which will come upon the whole world. The whole world, the whole world,from not in.
@@markking2054 Keep reading " Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, WHICH COMETH DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM MY GOD: AND i WILL WRITE UPON HIM MY NEW NAME. Rev.19:12... Wherefore we look for a new heaven and a new earth. He kept Noah safe because Noah obeyed his voice and did as he commanded. He kept Israel safe by a cloud in the day and fire by night. He keeps those that are his safe as a hen gathers her chicks and tucks them under her wing. see also Rev.18:3-9 & Luke 21;21-33,1 Cor.15:52 &Rev.20:4-10
@@ginj5375 exactly to the Church and keep reading chapter 4:1 after these things, after what things? Come up here, the church age is over ch 4 is the rapture 1Cor15: 51 52 1 Thessalonians 4:17. And this precedes the great Trib Daniel's 70th week.
@@ginj5375 you are getting your trumpets wrong Revelation ch 8 thru ch 11, 7 trumpets are the Angel's sounding the Trumpets of judgment. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is the Trumpet of God and the dead in Christ will rise first to meet the lord in the air. What's God gonna do meet us in the air, and take us to the Marriage feast, then slam us back to join him in his Judgement in the whole earth, in one hour? The celebration lasts a (Daniels)week. 1 Thessalonians 4:18 says to comfort one another, hey friends were either take the mark or we get beheaded. How is that comforting? Unless you are the 144,000 you are not gonna make it thru the hour of the Tribulation on the whole world without losing your head first.
Cloud of witnesses. Hebrews 12:1 KJV - Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
why do you say the pre trib rapture isn't true? the church is clearly in heaven before Daniels 70th week begins. Revelation 4, Revelation 5 9 11, Revelation 19 7 9 clearly shows the church is in heaven before the second coming. revelation 3 10 Jesus himself tells the church of Philadelphia that he will KEEP THEM FROM THE HOUR OF TESTING . he didn't says keep you through the hour of testing.
@@kennethaigbinode7698 I agree with you, but I slightly disagree with you also. It's true that the spirits will be with the LORD, however their bodies will be caught up in the air along with those who are alive. The spirits that are with G-D won't stay in a spiritual body forever, their new bodies will be given back to them.
Absolutely correct, the idea came from someone called Margret or something like that McDonald I think it was, in 1830 around there, and she got a vision and there was two Preachers that were there that took the idea and ran with it, you're absolutely right it's very new and very Western Here's the actual manuscripts of when she 1st saw this satanic vision www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/1975_macpherson_incredible-coverup.html
@@krackmusik97224 uumm, those ARE their spiritual bodies, they put on incorruption, that's the spiritual bodies, but then you must put on immortality 1st corin 15:50 Now I say this, brothers, *that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom* neither does the perishable inherit imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, *but we will all be changed* 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, *at the last trumpet* (That's the 7th and last) For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “Death, where is your sting? Hades, where is your victory?”
All the Christians I know seem to have more faith, hope, excitement, and are looking forward to a rapture, more so than the return of Christ... They have more hope for being snatched away from this earth before the tribulation, than simply living life (even through the tribulation) with Christ. It sounds to me like yes, we will be supernaturally changed and meet our King in the air, but that won't be "the rapture," that's simply the RETURN of CHRIST. And we are the greeting committee. And after we greet Him, we go immediately back to earth, not to heaven.. This rapture deception seems like something the devil would like. Because during unimaginably hard times, many Christians hearts will grow bitter towards God, because they wrongfully EXPECTED to be spared true hardship.
GOD always keep what HE said. HE told Abraham that HE won't destroy a City with at least 10 righteous people in it. The great tribulation will be great calamities unmatched from the beginning. There are many Christians all over the world rapture is the only way the great tribulation could take place. "For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." Matthew 24:21,22
He definitely does. He said dispensationalism believes Matthew 24 is the rapture bit we don't believe that. So he's just saying stuff he doesn't even knowm
Thank you for explaining this truth. Lord Jesus said that those who will endure till the end will be saved. Secret rapture is not biblical. Praise God that many are getting to know the true doctrine so that they will pray and find strength from the Lord to endure till the end. God is faithful and He will see us through in these last days.
The SAVE is the correction of our thoughts, as we all got alianated in the fall of Adam. We forgot the Rock we were hewn. Jesus has come to save our souls, His Bride. Matt 18:11 Jesus said 'you will know the truth and the truth will set you free'. Once we experienced the born from above (a higher realm), we need to constantly renew our minds to the truth of the New Cov, starting with Acts 2 the outporing of the Holy Spirit. (Jesus was born under the law, still OT). Blessings!
@roshnipillay305 - You wrote, "Secret rapture is not biblical." CORRECT!!! perhaps you can also clarify a few questions: What was Christ's mission from God? Was Christ's life and final work on the cross incomplete, resulting in His Bride undergoing punishment during the tribulation before the marriage feast? What is wrath? What is God's response to those who reject His Son? What is God's response to lawlessness? Is God's wrath truly reserved for Christ's Bride? How does the end-time events of Daniel 9:24-27 impact Israel? The Bride of Christ? The World?
But it DOES teach a Rapture and Resurrection at the final Return of Christ. We will be caught up in the clouds to be with Jesus as He returns to establish His kingdom. Matt 24 and 1 Cor 15 also fit with this. 2 Thes 1 and 2 also discuss this. Jesus returns and we will be gathered to meet Him.
Grace And Peace, SW. Will have to Respectfully Disagree - Way TOO Many "problems" {found EIGHTEEN [18!] so far...}, with post-trib, so, *For God's Honor And Glory,* may we "discuss" this "following" study, And Please, Be *Very RICHLY Blessed!:* -------------------------------------------------- *Pre-TOJT Great GRACE Departure!* "Outline!": *"Do ALL things Decently And In ORDER!!" (1 Corinthians 14 : 40 KJB!)* *(1) PEACE With God! "Receiving" The Holy Spirit For "understanding"?* *(2a) Which BIBLE: KJB* or Any "newer modern version" will suffice? *(2b) KJB And God's Excellent "study" Rules?* *(3a) Rightly Divided - "Brief" Intro* *(3b) THREE "Ages" Rightly Divided = God's TIMELINES?* *(4) Which "Gospel" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?* *(5) GREAT Tribulation or tribulations/GREAT GRACE Departure?* *(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure "Expectations?"* *(7) God's HEAVENLY UPlook For HIS Body?* *(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for WHOM or "signs"?* *(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out?"* *(10) "Day Of CHRIST?" Rightly Divided from {RDf}: "The Day Of The LORD"?* *(11) CONFIDENCE in death/resurrection, OR, in living/glorification?* *(12) CHRIST Will RETURN **_"Without Warning"?_* *(13)The TWO "Trumps" Of God, In HIS "Age Of GRACE"?* *(14) Meeting HIM "In The Air"? to Heaven?* vs U-turn (theology?) _Back To earth?_ *(15) Preparation For Judgment?* *(16) Post Departure "Deception Question"?* Conclusion!: *(17) **_Distinctions_** Between The "Mystery" Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure {RDf}* *The "Prophesied" Second Coming!* *{RDf = "Rightly Divided from" (2 Timothy 2 : 15 KJB!)}* And, please Do Let me "know" IF you "wish" to have *Scriptural* "expansion" of ANY other of the above () segments... continued in *Part 17 "Conclusion"... God Bless!*
GRACE ambassador judging from your dissertation(!), I don’t think my understanding and truly “rightly dividing” all the scriptures dealing with the Return & Rapture will be able to break through.
GRADE ambassador : By your own words, you have much to learn. Sketchpad Warrior is actually indeed correct. Likewise, there is also NO PROBLEMS with a "post-Tribulation" rapture whatsoever! The only actual real problem is your own unfortunate complete and total ignorance of what is going on concerning all manners related to prophesy and with that the many layers of deception which you have unfortunately also fallen victim where it is very sad but true that you have absolutely no understanding of prophesy whatsoever (more on that much further below). Going beyond just the simply the issue of the rapture which itself is not when you think, for the purpose you think, nor does it go to the destination that you think, not even for the duration that you think either; it is among all these and many other reasons that you think there is problems where in fact there is no "problems" whatsoever and in fact aside from the Bible declaring exclusively openly and directly that the rapture is AFTER THE TRIBULATON in exhaustive detail, there is no passages found anywhere in the Bible that in any way references nor supports either a "Pre-Tribulation" or "Mid-Tribulation" rapture and quite sadly for everyone who has ever attempted to attach a scripture reference, these only humorously show always their own immense ignorance and foolishness because every single passage without exception related to this particular topic is purposefully date stamped denoted by the words and phrases chosen and surrounding context direct declarations often ignored that all the passages are indeed AFTER THE TRIBULATON --- most mortal humans typically cannot find more than 27, I can tell you 83 such passages and again all of them actually denote the time within every single one of of them without a single exception, something you clearly didn't realize as well as the fact that you are under a heavy curse keeping you apart from God and left unfortunately unsaved because of your fall into deception and for the protection of God's actual elect. It is these factors that left you quite surprised and you would have been left behind and it not been for you not making it through the next few years but all the same still ended up standing on the wrong side in the end against God which is a matter that even though has already come to pass as has all of prophesy beginning to end in what is still from your own perspective future, here in the past you have the chance to change the outcome and re-learn all you don't actually know with God's help and much prayer with a willingness to trust in him completely and lay aside the fear of relearning again all you thought you knew, there is a chance that future history already done could indeed still yet change for you. Realize that you are not alone and in wisdom understand both Hebrews 13:2 and Amos 3:7 knowing God is in control of all situations in ways you would have not thought possible even though I just now gave this to you directly from the Bible; So likewise realize also what you have further missed in John 21:18-24, Revelation 1:9, Revelation 10:5-11, and Revelation 11:1-3 …. So also Daniel 12 should be mentioned also.
There is rapture in the bible, but there is no secret rapture before the great tribulation, cause the first resurrection is after the great tribulation, simple
Hashem Ministry : 1 Thessalonians is referring directly to an event AFTER THE TRIBULATION IS OVER by it's exact chosen wording and surrounding immediate context! For anyone to ignorantly and foolishly try to use any passage taken out of either 1st or 2nd Thessalonians in any kind of attempt to support or justify any misguided pre-Tribulation" or "mid-Tribulation" rapture idea which is not only non-Biblical but also shows immense lack of wisdom on the part of the fool trying to make the point not realizing they are are actually pointing out the opposite! This also shows to all an immense and profound ignorance of the Bible making clear that the one making the statement has absolutely no idea what is indeed actually written! Who then is the greater fool, he who says openly unto others "what he does not know" or "he who listens to the fool who does not know what he is talking about"? Hashem Ministry, you just effectively ripped apart your own attempted point as the passage you described from 1 Thessalonians is heavily marked with phrases and keywords explicitly and directly connecting this passage to what you would know of a and probably describe as "The Second Coming" which is incidentally an event that occurs 3 1/2 days after the final official end of the Tribulation that is also known as "The Great and Terrible Day" also spoken of in Matthew 24:29-31which is itself the actual and only real "rapture" type of event! Incidentally, of all the many verses and passages that are written, there is not a single instance anywhere found throughout the entire Bible that supports a "pre-tribulation" rapture. For there is no verses anywhere that does not explicitly declare the time of that same passage and in the case of every single verse ever used to describe "the rapture", all of those without any exception denote a time for the passage as being AFTER THE TRIBULATION is over! Everything written in both 1st and 2nd Thessalonians is very excellent examples of this issue because those verses explicitly reference themselves as also all being AFTER THE TRIBULATON yet there are many who in ignorance unaware and not knowing what is actually written who try to mistakenly apply those in a non-Biblical manner against what is written just as you effectively just tried to do yourself illustrating how much you really don't know and likewise just how very much you need to take the time to learn for what you know is like that of a young child who does not realize that of all that they think they know, in reality they know nothing whatsoever!
@@philarevolutionarywarriorp8295 ....correction. They discussed whether or not it was pre or mid but they certainly believe in the rapture either pre or mid, definitely not post-trib (what a waste of time that would be. Amillennism was thought of as 'immature'.
In a true look at the seedbed movement, I see that the formation was established in 2012. Also, it is led by the Methodist Church. That brings no judgement from my seeking truth. But what I did learn was more than valuable. A truth was provided by God The Holy Spirit to me. This video truly comes by a subtraction willfully chosen, and self willed by men. Just because part of the New Testament brings fear to anyone, does not give anyone the right to subtract from the Gospels According To Jesus Christ. Lastly, this Gospel is not driven by a Hollywood movie, which was in my strong opinion. The one reason these comments were made. The Word of God does not affiliate itself with worldly Teachers, and it never will. This is very sad. Christ does not mumble, nor does Paul, as He Writes this According To Jesus Christ!
All you have displayed in your comment is boastful pride. Get the leaven out of yourself! Rapture is a cowards hope, read 2Thes. 1:1-6 think about the parable of the wheat and tares.
@@halfulford3081 It really doesn't matter what you believe or what this guy says. What matters is what the Bible teaches. This guy builds a straw man argument then he tears down his own straw man. Beware of false teachers like this guy.
Nowhere in the Bible does it talk about 2 comings after the resurrection? Well, what does Jesus mean when he said no one knows the day or the hour? Then, if Thes and Cor talk about Christ coming down on the mount of olives, or the rapture happening then, well, his saying of no one knows the day or the hour falls apart. From the time the AC makes his covenant with many FOR A WEEK, one would just have to add 2520 days,, or much simpler, 1260 days or 42 months from the time of the abomination that makes desolate would profane the temple, to know to the exact day the time of Christ's return. A simple calculator would be needed. So, if the coming of Christ to Jerusalem will be extremely easy to figure, Jesus must have talked about another gathering, another coming, namely the rapture
The Biblical positional timing of the rapture is: post-trib-pre-great-trib-pre-wrath, which comes after the Latter Rain (2nd outpouring of His Spirit) begins to fall in the latter days. The latter days is a 7-year period commonly referred to as Daniel's 70th Week, which is set to begin at sunset of Oct. 2, 2024 Elul 29, which begins Oct. 3 Tishri 1, thus the latter days spans from Oct. 3, 2024 Tishri 1 - Sept. 17, 2031 Elul 29. Within this period of time a myriad of things shall occur: the Latter Rain, that tribulation that comes upon those that come out of the apostate church to receive the gospel, then great tribulation that comes upon those that come out of the secular world to repentance to receive the gospel, and then comes His wrath, which is reserved for the ungodly and the disobedient children. Prior to His wrath Ezekiel's War shall occur, and then the remnant Jews shall come to confess and repent and are saved, and then comes His wrath. The Rapture event comes after that tribulation that comes upon those that come out of the apostate church. These are the dead in Christ. After the dead in Christ rise and stand on their feet then we that are alive and remain (His faithful that have, do, and teach the truth, which are few in number, and are kept from and through that tribulation) shall be caught up together with them (the dead in Christ now risen) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord (1 Thess. 4:16-17). God is: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Godhead, and these Three are one.
Revelation says that every eye will see Jesus when he comes, even those who pierced him. Nobody is going anywhere or doing anything until Jesus comes on the scene.
@@smokeandmirrors6167 what you're missing is that Jesus comes for His bride before the tribulation begins. See, Jesus made a promise before He left, John 14:1-3. This is where believers meet Him in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. This is the same thing He told us Matthew 25:1-13. When He returns to earth He comes WITH His saints, that at the end of Revelation also Zechariah 14. When He comes for His bride no one will see that.
@Brett...well mormonism is the wrong path (along with many) but I am not a believer in pre tribulation rapture. I believe the born again saints will have to go through the tribulation. The Lord may show me otherwise but I pray regularly I will not be deceived. Pre tribulation rapture believers are extremely aggressive I have found.
Are you reading the same Bible I am? Unless you're blind, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, and I Thessalonians 4:16-17, are definitely covering that topic. Philippians 3:21, Paul is looking for the return of Christ, when he will transform our(believers), lowly bodies to be like his glorious body. II Thessalonians 2: 1-8, Paul is speaking about the gathering together, which will happen before the lawless one(the Antichrist), appears at the outset of the Tribulation period. Identifying the same event as the rapture, just using different terminology.
Question. How will God save the Church, Christians all over the world, from His full Wrath? God always saves and protect (Lot, Noah, Moses) His People from His Wrath. The mystery of the dead being raised and the living being caught up in the clouds with the Lord. Why would God pour out His full Wrath on His people? God told Moses how to protect and save His people from His Wrath, and He also told Lot and Noah. I believe God has also told Apostle John how God will protect and save His people from His Full Wrath. I believe there is a Huge misunderstanding or confusion.
I have always wondered why the Rapture was never mentioned by any of the Protestant Reformation - reformers. That teaching did not appear until the 19th century.
Charles Heller, except for a few clear sentences from Paul, the rapture is a mystery of God that remains hidden in various scriptures, so it’s not just lying around on the surface for everyone to see. Then the doctrine was suppressed by the Catholic church for over a thousand years, and if they didn’t want anyone to preach about something, it just didn’t get preached. Power in Reformation churches was also centralized, and doctrines were just as tightly controlled, so if they didn’t want you teaching or printing something, you didn’t. And end time prophesies tell about how God will rescue a remnant from corrupt political and religious leaders and then destroy them, so it’s not hard to imagine why leaders would want to suppress such ideas. Cracks started to appear in the centralized control of religion when the New World opened up, and more English versions of the Bible were printed, as well as commentaries that didn’t have to be approved by the King and his minions. In fact, if you overlay the times and places where there was a drought in Rapture knowledge in history with the domains of these powerful churches that didn’t (and still don’t) condone the Rapture or even much of Eschatology, you will find a high correlation. The Rapture is not a modern, Western, English-speaking church thing. The Rapture was first revealed in ancient Eastern churches and only resurfaced when religious liberty flourished again, which just happened to be in the modern, Western, English-speaking churches.
@@Truth537, to be clear, the Rapture is the Lord’s catching-away of saints to heaven that begins when the Father says it’s time and ends with the church in heaven. The complete set of Rapture details are scattered across the Bible, but everything spoken/written before Paul had to be communicated using veiled language, otherwise there would have been no mystery left for Paul to reveal. So to answer your question, Paul said he was going to reveal a mystery in 1 Cor 15 before teaching certain Rapture details. “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Cor 15:51-52
@@biblehistoryscience3530 Thanks for your response. I can appreciate what you are trying to affirm. However, the scripture you shared 'Behold, I shew you a mystery....' has nothing to do with the 'mystery' of the pre-trib rapture. Paul tells the believer exactly what the mystery is. He 'shewed' it to them. Read Corinthians 15 and you will quickly see that Paul is dealing with the rejection of the resurrection that some in the church seem to have. Paul goes into detail about how something must die before it can be raised (using the grain of wheat example) and that the new body we receive is a glorious one, unlike the perishable one we have now. After explaining the reality of the resurrection from the dead, he continues in then explaining the singular exception to death in order to receive our new glorified bodies.. He says, 'behold I tell you a mystery, 'WE SHALL NOT ALL DIE'. The mystery is that there will be a generation of living believers who will never taste death. That is the mystery that he plainly tells/shews us. Remember that the context is the teaching of the resurrection and that the mystery is plainly explained to readers, 'We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed when the Lord returns. We who are alive and remain at the Lords coming (Parousia). In order to come up with pre-trib doctrine from this verse, you have to read it into the text because it is never explicitly taught anywhere in scripture unfortunately. The mystery is plainly explained in this verse. If you have another verse that tells us the mystery is explicitly the teaching of the pre-trib rapture, please do share it. Thanks
@@Truth537, Paul refuted false teachers about the resurrection aspect of the Rapture doctrine in 1 Cor 15, affirming that it’s real then included a closely related detail of the doctrine which he referred to as a mystery. But if you don’t believe that the Rapture is the Lord’s catching-away of saints to heaven that begins when the Father says it’s time and ends with the church in heaven, then you can compartmentalize the various details and never see the forest thru the trees.
I have never believed in this false flag about rapture. You are absolutely spot on brother in Christ Jesus. Because the word of God also says. There will be false teachers 1Timothy 1: 3:7.
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. --1 Thessalonians 4:17
That is correct the Church is the body of Christ we are baptized in to his body by the spirit . and we will be where ever he is , 1 Cor. 12 : 13 ; We are his bride , and the gates of hell will not come against his Church ( BRIDE )
That's not the rapture there is no rapture that's the 2nd coming
@@plumber1874
I agree, no rapture
No matter ones end times interpretation of Revelation, the core value of Christ being King is what's important. Don't forget that discussion should never divide the church.
HuffleRuff you're the wisest person I've seen here 😍😍😍
But if we are in error, its important to be corrected by our brothers and sisters.
@huff
Pls give people smart comment.
@@mildrednsubuga8062
You are again, pls
This doctrine is pivotal. In fact it would deceive many. Cause many are not expecting to live through the times of the antichrist. But we will. And except those days are shortened no "Christian" flesh shall be saved to greet the christ in his return.
When it comes to doctrines likes these, or any teaching of the Bible for that matter, I believe we need to approach it with great humility. Eschatology is a very difficult subject to tackle, an area which we can easily fall into error if we are not careful. Additionally, we must also be careful to not alienate other Christians, particularly regarding secondary issues that have nothing to do with salvation.
With much respect to our brother, who is bold and courageous enough to publicly share his biblical views. I would like to add a portion of scripture that perhaps may be overlooked by him and other brothers that disagree with the doctrine of the rapture.
When it comes to objections regarding verses in Matthew 24, regarding the rapture, those that disagree with a rapture say that Noah and his family were not taken away ,but rather preserved through the flood and this is true, however what many overlook in the Genesis account is the person of Enoch, whom the Bible says was taken away by God before the flood came. I think this is a very important piece of information because it sets an important precedence of a “rapture”. It appears Genesis chapter 5 , which is one chapter before God commissions Noah to build the ark. God raptures Enoch before he pours out his wrath.
Another issue that arises when discussing the subject of the rapture is the nature of the Great Tribulation. There has always been tribulation in this world, Christians all over the world are being killed every day for their allegiance to Christ our Lord. As Christians we will suffer tribulation in this world, in some cases we will even die for our faith. It is however very important to make a distinction between tribulation and The Great Tribulation. The Bible teaches us that the Great Tribulation will be a time where God will pour out his wrath upon the world, upon the kingdom of the Antichrist, from which faithful Christians will be saved from. Again, there is precedence in Genesis. Our Lord Jesus Christ tells is Luke 17:29 that the last days will also be like the days of Lot:
Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Notice something important in the wording, the same day Lot “went out of Sodom” it rained fire and brimstone. If your read the account of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah you will see that God does not pour out his wrath until he gets Lot out of the city. Now If God did not allow Lot, who was not where he was supposed to be, to remain and suffer the outpouring of his wrath, how then will he allow those redeemed by the precious blood of his son to suffer through it.
Paul mentions in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that as believers we are not appointed to wrath, but salvation.
This is by no means exhaustive, there are many examples in the scriptures like the ones I have referenced, nevertheless I hope this can be a blessing to some, God bless you brothers, To God be the Glory
The Quadraphonic Gospels thank you. I am prayerfully considering this topic.
Doctrines are lies from hell. Many will be descived and will rescive the mark of the beast due to this teaching.
Shannyn Tritton if I may kindly offer some advice, before we call people heretics, it would be more fruitful to ask for more clarification as to why a person holds a particular point of view, if after clarification you still believe that person to be in error, then at that point it may be more fruitful still, to try and win that person over rather than calling them a heretic, as stated by James in the following verses:
James 5:19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
James 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
For clarification, my position is not that we are saved because we are faithful, rather a person that has been born again is faithful because they are saved, because God the Holy Spirit has indwelt their mortal body.
I know that the method I prescribed may require some patience and may not be suited for the quick wit of the internet, but let us not abandon the love and patience of Christ and remember to shine his light everywhere we go, and remember that his piercing eyes are not limited to the depths of our hearts, but they also extend to the TH-cam comment section, God bless you! May the name of Christ resound in all the earth! Glory be to his mighty name!
@@thequadraphonicgospels7829 some say Noah was taken, others believe Noah and Arc were a picture of the pre Trib rapture. Noah rose above the waters Pre Trib Rapture, and Noah came down on earth, after judgment for the 2nd coming of Jesus to set up the millennium.
Mark King thanks for your reply, if I may kindly suggest, it would be more fruitful for us to limit our interpretation to the pages of The Bible rather than speculation based upon external sources. God bless you mate.
I use to fall for this doctrine. Thank God I’m awake and know the scriptures
😧
the rapture is very much biblical, however the secret rapture is not.
Stand by , God is going to pour out his personal wrath on you,, yes that’s you,, just for believing in him,, for your loyalty in belief you will become collateral damage just before the marriage of the church to our savior Jesus,, wear makeup of course to hide your wounds piled on you by the groom.. that’s what you believe,, get used to it,, a cave won’t hide you.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
@@bobgriffith1810
That is correct! When you are Gods child you will indeed be persecuted GREATLY! Christ never said it would be easy, he in fact said we would be persecuted just like he was. Scripturally and historically christians have been persecuted, silenced, tortured, jailed, stoned, crucified and put to death in the name of Christ. During the dark ages alone between 50-100 million Christians have been killed for their faith. (To put in perspective the holocaust 6 million people were killed) The Roman inquisition was very brutal and I suggest you look into the history of it. Because when you see what those Christian’s have suffered you will know a rapture does not exist because if so, those people needed to escape more than any human being in history. It was truly a horrific time in history that many Christian’s do not know of. God bless you 💕 and please read the following verses below….
1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
John 15:20
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also
Luke 9:58
And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Matthew 5:11-12
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 24:29-30
Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”
“And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
Psalm 7:5
Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.
Matthew 10:37-38
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
I'm amazed at how many people in the comment section can't understand this video. I've watched several videos like this and read several articles, and I agree entirely with this dude. I went to seminary and didn't learn the rapture was false. It wasn't until I went searching for the answer to this question that it was answered. Thanks, bro.
the worst part is its lay people that debate this, anyone with an understanding of exegeting and the minimal amount of investigation can see very clearly the truth.
@@marwasgaming this is true even in the "truther" community. They say they question everything but when I try to talk to them about how all their "End Times" foreboding might not be true they reject it immediately. I guess too many conspiracies fit that mark of the beast stuff? Satan can certainly influence humans to do things that reinforce this false narrative. It's quite advantageous for believers to assume they'll either be beamed up or beheaded. Either way they assume failure is inevitable and don't really try to fight against evil.
I understand this video completely and find it contrary to scripture. I find it common that people make videos and either twist or ignore clear truth to confuse people about a clear doctrine that believers are given comfort of a promise of God's word. Don't need seminary training to find the clear truth.
There is not a single verse that clearly places such an event before the tribulation.
I find it interesting that he keeps saying "they will go to Heaven to live with Jesus forever." But as far as I know, no one who believes in the rapture believes that Heaven is our permanent home. Don't forget that the New Jerusalem IS the Bride - the Church - established on Earth again.
We don't believe we live in Heaven after the Rapture. Isa. 26:19 say we are hidden in many mansions for the tribulation.
When you really get into scripture you see there is no rapture at all!
....dang, I wonder why the early Church father's believed in it? 😎
What scripture are you reading chief- Archie comics?
@@1969cmp They didn't. The first time the rapture teaching began was in the 1800's.
@@Στεφανος-κ7υ They did and they discussed period possible models such as pretribulation and midtribulation.
In any case, Thessalonians mentions the rapture.
@@1969cmp it mentions a temporal rapture, it means we go to receive Christ in Heaven and immediately afterwards we go to the battle of Armageddon which means that if we are alive by that time, we will go through the whole tribulation
I believe the Holy Spirit just gave me a revelation…
These examples of Pre, Mid & Post Trib and the Rapture are just more examples of God’s grace. No matter which one happens, we can rest assured that… All those that walk with Christ WILL be saved
Truth.
Timothy C, don't believe seedbed. Because he is misleading Biblically ignorant people.
Plus, there is a pre-tribulation rapture, and three mid tribulation rapture's, but no post tribulation rapture.
@@alanhales239 ...a pre-tribulation rapture, and three mid tribulation rapture's,...Lol, WHAT???
@@ML-uc2zc there are seven rapture's in the Bible. Three have already happened.
The next rapture is the pre-tribulation rapture.
Then there's three more rapture's after the Church has been raptured to Heaven.
Study the Bible. And you'll see all the rapture's.
Good luck on your tribs
Yes the pre trib rapture is a recent theory circa 1830 via john darby but the rapture is a long standing biblical teaching that even very early Christian. Writings like the Didache (95-125ad) irenaus, clement of Rome & others taught the rapture. It's not fear mongering it is the blessed hope that Jesus will rescue his church during the worst time ever known on earth.
Tom Brown, all Darby did was to rediscover and popularize a version of the rapture doctrine, but as you noted, the rapture rescue had been taught since the first century. Claims that Darby invented the rapture started as a conspiracy theory invented by a reporter named Dave MacPherson in the 1970s. His research was easily falsified because he literally interpreted evidence backwards.
For example, the conspiracy theory says that Darby got the pre-trib rapture from a Scottish teenage girl who channeled the doctrine from demons, but the demons actually told her to say the church must go thru the great tribulation, which ironically is exactly what the reporter and everyone who accepts his conspiracy theory believes.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 The Saints talk about the rapture, but its when He Returns after the Tribulation, not before.
@@dr.klausschwab6184, because Matt 24:29-31 clearly shows Jesus coming and gathering saints after the tribulation of those days, many people feel that this proves a post-trib rapture. But the rapture was a mystery before Paul, so Jesus would only have spoken about it using the veiled language of things like parables and metaphors. Therefore, Jesus was not talking about the rapture there, and that fact disproves the post-trib rapture.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 No thats not what the Church ever Believed, The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion and does not reveal strange doctrines after 1900 years
@@dr.klausschwab6184, you're ignoring all the facts that refute your chosen interpretation. Okay, believe whatever you want then.
Matthew 24 : 21 to 31 . Jesus says that his return will be like lightning is from the east to the west . Jesus also said in these verses that he will return after the tribulation of those days .
Bingo!
The tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel .or 7 years of tribulation . and Rev. 19 tells of his second coming the rapture has all ready taken place we saved believers who are the Church will be coming back with him
19 : 11 - 16 ; Matt. 24 has nothing to do with the rapture of the Church or any thing to do with the Church age which come to its end with the rapture .
Leonard You correctly quoted the 2nd coming. This 2nd coming is after the tribulation period and is very specific to when Jesus sends his angels to Gather his Elect (primarily Jewish survivors of the Great tribulation) this is the gathering that Jesus had spoken of earlier that he had wanted ' like a hen who gathers her chicks" But the Jews had rejected their Messiah King and now the Jews say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord thus the Lord can return for them and he gathers them to Jerusalem. There is no rapture of the Church in this section. The Church will have been raptured prior to the start of the 70 week of Daniel. The period scripture calls the time of Jacobs trouble And the Church is not Jacob . The Church and Israel are not the same.
Some I believe have misunderstood what is being said because he is using the terminology "Rapture." As a former dispensationalist, I believe that he is emphasizing the misuse of the "dispensational-rapture." Yes, we will meet Messiah in the air, but not be taken to dwell in heaven for 7 yrs (pre-tribulation) or 3 1/2 yrs (mid-tribulation) or so. Rather, we will march (return) with Him back to the earth in which Elohim created us and gave us dominion.
Amen Miguel Cotto, what you say is Truth!
Jesus said to all of the Churches the following!
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
That is the Resurrection that ALL in the Churches will be in!
Jesus also said the Following!
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that EVERYONE which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This Day of Jesus Raising us ALL up is that Day called the FIRST RESURRECTION!!!!!
but after we go into the air, with him, wont we need to prepare for war..... you know, a briefing of sorts? maybe some training? I mean Armageddon is going to be combative
@@demeraradove We will be changed in the twinkling of an eye we will know what to do
This is absolutely true. There is no rapture such as is taught. I never knew it until the Lord showed me. It shook me up. But like the cow in the bushes puzzle once you see it you cannot unsee it and you wonder how you couldn't see it before you did.
@Mike well said
@Mike I have a couple of thoughts for you.
Because the bible is written mostly in metaphors/parables/imagery, the way I see it, the rapture is about believers and non-believers in terms of christians who believe in god/jesus and christians who *claim to believe in god/jesus but their actions/choices/true beliefs are antithetical to jesus’ teachings.
The so-called “Christians” who twist and lie about The Word to further their agendas will be the ones taken away, but this is where it gets interesting...
Apparently before the bible was translated into every language, “going to hell” just meant dying.
So if that’s the case, then logic follows that the “anti-christ” will simply die out (taken away = dying out, being killed perhaps). Whether that’s because they all kill each other, or it’s done by the hand of god, I do not know. I have a feeling it will be the hand of god, but in the form of climate change/the damage caused by it.
The rest of the people will live out the rest of their days on earth “in God’s presence,” which I think either means 1.) living peacefully, 2.) living in the knowledge that God is with the people who survived, 3.) living in a post-knowledge era where we lose a lot of information, or 4.) there will be intense weather patterns, storms, flooding, etc due to climate change which will wipe out a good chunk of the world population, and the rest will wander what’s left of the earth, picking up the pieces, as “God’s chosen people.”
I’m just now considering whether the “rapture” is just another word for “knowledge” and that the internet was the catalyst. Knowledge is now widespread, so nobody is safe from the “light.” We all “face the music” - so-to-speak - in our lives at some point. It is whether we learn from these experiences and do our best to never make them again, or deny everything and continue the cycle, that determines how our lives - and possibly our afterlives - will go.
@Mike One could take “caught up” as to mean caught as in “caught on something.” This group of people will be stuck on a political issue, perhaps, and cannot seem to find a way out.
But to answer to your analysis of “being a christian,” are you aware of how the terms in christianity have been changed through the translations? Sometimes the words in other languages are used differently even though they’re close to the same idea, because people provide the meanings behind words (as they evolved to develop language).
edit: my claim is that people are the ones who wrote the bible, as well as the thousands of translations throughout the entirety of human history. To assume that people in early human civilization had developed sophisticated language skills and were “inspired” to write “God’s word” (if it’s true) but somehow messed up the translations is interesting.
But of course, words change meaning over long periods of time, as do books, because it is the human that attributes meaning based on experience.
Just my thoughts.
@Mike 2 Thess. 1:1-10 and 2:3-4 are pretty clear the rapture and the day of the Lord are the same event.
@Mike you are 100% right all the way
I'm glad you point out that the rapture idea is recent. This should be stressed more. It's funny how those who want to go back to traditional Christianity are so wrapped up in something that wasn't believed in for 1800 years.
Naiant How do you what was truly believed, when the Roman catholic church was the supreme power during that time, and dictated and destroyed whatever the considered was heretical to the point of burning all materials cause any preaching outside the Catholic church to go underground, and kept more by memory than written format. Amen
Saint Al
If you go that route you can come up with anything.
Then it would appear you've been on it with you historical lesson rather than a biblical one. Amen
Saint Al : Shows how much you don't know because we kept everything written. I should well know considering that I was there as I have been for most all of human history, a witness and observer among you for presently 3,675 years, 4 months, and several odd days and I am not the only one. Hebrews 13:2, Amos 3:7, and John 21:18-24 not to mention Revelation 1:9, Revelation 10: 5-11, and Revelation 11:3
th-cam.com/video/gH2DdWhT2PQ/w-d-xo.html&feature=share
I’ve always had issue with the Rapture theology. It seems to me that such a massive event would get a little more specific airtime in the scriptures than the Rapture believers can produce.
All major themes, birth of Christ, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Forgiveness of Sins are written in plain sight and do not have to be interpreted.
The Rapture is conspicuous by its absence in that way.
Depending on how you look at it, you could say Noah and his family were “left behind,” or you could say that the sinners were left behind while Noah and his family were the ones “raptured.”
Wesley Cragun, you’re exactly right, and the lesson that Jesus was teaching concerned how the world will be taken by surprise, as Paul said it will happen when the world says peace and safety then sudden destruction falls, BUT the other common thread in both stories is how some righteous believers were saved out of those catastrophes. Noah and his family there lifted up above the Flood waters, and Lot and his family were ushered out of the city by angels, then all hell broke loose on those they left behind.
Wesley Cragun I like what you did there
Not .... Matthew 24 verse 39: the flood came and took them all away. (The sinners )
@@GeneGruber exactly right!36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
The taken gets eaten by vultures.
@@Jasho-Beam You quoted Luke 17:[36]-37 - Context is ALWAYS paramount. Clearly, Jesus is discussing His Return (when He shall reign). The Pharisees questioned Him about the Kingdom of God, and He told them He was in their midst. They did not recognize Him from the Scripture nor by His works. Jesus tells His Disciples that He must suffer at the hands of the Pharisees, but He will be revealed to them, and when that happens, those taken will be food for the vultures (Eagles), and we see this again in Revelation 19:17-18.
This is not quite the same event Paul discussed with the Thessalonians when he was with them and when he sent his two letters.
The lawless one must be revealed BEFORE Christ returns to reign; that much is the same. But something happens prior to the revelation of the lawless one, something substantial. Paul speaks of a "restrainer" who is taken out of the way. What or who has the power to take the "restrainer" out of the way, and how does the "restrainer" have the power to keep the lawless one at bay until He is removed? The lawless one, "who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as god sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." This same individual is whom Christ will slay with the breath of His mouth.
The point is that an event is described that occurs before Christ returns (during a period of time that many want to place the Church in), leaving a question that must be answered, who is the RESTRAINER? If the RESTRAINER, as many have proposed, is the Holy Spirit of God, that is, within everyone who claims Christ as the one and only begotten Son of God, and therefore members of Christ's body, the Bride of Christ, how does this impact the Church?
Why is the Holy Spirit proposed as the Restrainer?
The short answer is John 16:7-11 wherein we learn that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. When He is taken out of the way, there will be no restraint on sin, there will be a lack of righteousness, and no fear of judgment. The beast from the sea (Revelation 13:1-10) will speak arrogant words and blasphemies against God, His Tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. The Beast is permitted to make war with the saints... and this is where many get confused; Saints are those separated, sanctified, set apart, unto God. Old Testament Saints, New Testament Saints, and Tribulation Saints. Wait... aren't tribulation saints New Testament saints? I guess that generates another question that needs to be asked; who are the 24 Elders seated around the Throne of God?
These answers are essential questions that the Bible has provided answers for; however, man's wisdom is not God's wisdom, and English was not the original language of the Bible ~
I personally only have an 8th grade education, but was led to God by the faith in Christ Jesus that was given me by only reading the Word of God in a 100yr old BIBLE i bought as an antique while living in a world of Sin(a drug smuggler was l) ,**Patient is the Lord my God Jesus 50yrs he waited on me before l stopped my sinful ways, do Not wait that long to Repent, one day will be to long for some Sinners**
As a friend of mine once said, “Differing eschatologies aren’t the end of the world.”
They may not be the end of the world but someone is wrong because God is not double minded and will tell people theres a rapture and tell others there isnt. The point is God is not rapturing the Church because its not what he said.
Jim, clever.
I disagree. Doctrine matters.
“If any man will do his will, *he shall know of the doctrine* whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”
{John 17:7}
Whosoever transgresseth, and *abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God* He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
{2 John 1:9}
If there come any unto you, *and bring not this doctrine* receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
{2 John 1:10}
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
{Acts 2:42}
...
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, *did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart*
{Acts 2:46}
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, *but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees*
{Matthew 16:12}
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
{Titus 1:9}
Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
{Titus 2:10}
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences *contrary to the doctrine* which ye have learned; and avoid them.
{Romans 16:17}
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
{1 Timothy 6:3-4}
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
{1 Timothy 4:6}
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
{2 Timothy 3:16}
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
{2 Timothy 4:2-3}
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but *ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you*
{Romans 6:17}
Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, *to doctrine*
{1 Timothy 4:13}
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
{1 Timothy 4:16}
I always thought that the concept of believers magically disappearing one day was ridiculous.
I began reading the left behind books a really long time ago.
I couldn’t finish it. It was too silly.
The movies are just as bad!
@@Juliana65 I’m sure it’s probably worse.
@@andsoitgoes1142 I’m not saying that it’s because of that series that I don’t believe that.
I just think scripture is being taken too literal in this case.
I believe that the tribulation must happen before the elect are taken.
Perhaps the twinkling of an eye could be the flash of nuclear weapons or something,
I dunno.
But I can say I didn’t come to this conclusion from reading that book.
Anyways. I don’t want to argue anyone’s beliefs. That’s just what I believe.
@@andsoitgoes1142 no need to apologize 😊 God Bless
@@edroseptic9442 The twinkling of the eye is a measure of time. One billionth of a second. The *change* from mortal to immortal will happen that fast.
I agree with your denial of the pre-trib theory.
As a Systemic Functional Linguistic Scholar myself (in a Biblical Studies field) I can appreciate you calling your audience back to the "genre" (6:57) of the literature being discussed (however we define this slippery term). I agree it is a crucial consideration because it does provide some background context for what is written. On that basis, however, I feel there is an inconsistency that needs addressing in this presentation: 4:02 "What Paul is actually doing [in 1 Thess 4] is mixing metaphors." I notice that your discussion of this passage is embedded between two well-established metaphorical passages: the flood of Noah comparison in Matthew and the New Jerusalem passages in Revelation. We know these are metaphors not because aren't literal events (cause they clearly were and are) but because of how they are USED to draw comparisons (i.e. "this" is "that" language). The problem I see here draws upon two narratives by genre then comparing these to what Paul is using as an epistolary "instruction of the Lord" (v. 15) which they are "to speak to one another" (v. 18) as a comfort to those who were wondering about what was going to happen to those who had died prior to Jesus' return. Paul does not use metaphorical "this" is "that" language in these passages because they are not hypothetical scenarios (like the parables in Matthew), nor are they making any referenced comparison (i.e. "new" Jerusalem), but are referencing the non-hypothetical died-and-risen Lord (v. 14), a Lord actually taken up in the clouds (Matthew references), non-hypothetical people who have died in Christ (v. 15, 16), actual archangel making the "trumpet" announcement (the most likely "trumpet" metaphor here but could well be an actual trumpet v. 16), all being "snatched-away in the clouds" ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις which provides cohesive ties to the Lord who is to "come out of heaven" (v 16). The references to "heaven, clouds, air," are cohesive ties as idiomatic ways of reiterating the same concept without redundancy (purposely collocated alongside his reiterated uses of "Lord, God, Christ")--The God of Heaven (i.e. the true God, a strongly Matthean phrase) "will take back with Jesus those who have 'fallen asleep' in Him (κοιμωμένων)." (v. 13, 14 GNT)--which is the thesis being elaborated here: note the structure--supporting γὰρ (vv. 14, 15) and explanatory ὅτι (v. 16) and inferential Ὥστε (v. 17). While there is no stopping Bible scholars from drawing allusions to OT material (or even pagan material for that matter) There really is no linguistic justification per se for rendering this as a metaphor like those of the flood in Matthew, and the new Jerusalem in Revelation. Paul's wording is relayed as epistolary instructions of how the Lord's return will include those who have "died in Christ" (as far as Paul knows).
Michael Halcomb Michael there is no need to attack me personally. Characterizing me as "touting" does not prove your point. Being open with you about my background is simply open disclosure about my presuppositions and framework which gives you the best options to critique my response. Labeling me having "elementary school ...little understanding" does not corroborate your attempted rebuttal of "this for that" by merely restating your desire to deny the need for linguistic justification of metaphors. Sometimes I feel theology can make people forget the simple observation that the object we have to study in these documents is the language (i.e. linguistic justification). The labeling is merely resorting to personal degradation. This misdirects the point of my critique. The simplified definition "this for that" is exactly what you have described in your dictionary entry response. You responded with "source domain (i.e. "this") for target domain (i.e. "that")." I do appreciate that entry by the way. If you would like to dive into the meta-linguistic reasoning, e.g. Experiential/Logical/Interpersonal/Thematic/Informational, etc., for the social practice of using metaphors, nothing would motivate me more. My approach was to benefit the readers without my specific background with the principle minus the jargon. Your use of this entry attempted the jargon without the principle since you denied the principle of the critique behind it. Perfect example of metaphor is when Christ says "This is my body... this is my blood" and holds up both the bread and cup. The concrete, source domain would be the cup and bread nourishing the mortal flesh, standing for the (at that point more conceptual) target domain of the conceptual blood and body that nourish the eternal soul. The metaphor stuck with them and became more understandable after the death and resurrection. It was after this that they met again and that metaphor became "recontextualized" and more clear. "This domain" for "that domain". The problem I'm asking you to explain for me is this Michael: in the section where Christ's return is elaborated upon by Paul, what "target domain" do each of the elements point to? Metaphor is not justified simply to say that he is "borrowing imagery" because every communication does this. Every writer has several "sources" from which they borrow imagery, it's the only way we learn. This confuses the use of the term "source". A "source domain" means, as your entry identified well, that a certain item that represents a "semantic domain/field" is being utilized by the speaker as a symbol (i.e. metaphor) for another item (i.e. "semantic domain/field). I appreciate the desire to respond. I would only ask that you refrain from further personal attacks. Thank you for your time.
Michael Halcomb I see. I appreciate your reply. And if you had used the same associations to one of your colleagues at the seminary, what kind of reaction could you expect? Had our posts been reversed it's clear offense would have been taken. Though my desire was simply to engage with you. I had hoped you would submit some manner of scholarly banter with my position which you seem to have some impression I've come up with on my own. My position could be footnoted with MAK Halliday, Hasan, Lakoff and Johnson's excellent resource Metaphors We Live By, and many others. Halliday has gone so far as to examine how the entire language can be a metaphorical mode of meaning in general (what he terms "antilanguage") which was the basis of my entire MA thesis. My responses have nothing to do with one-upmanship in any fashion. Nor did the concern for "the last word" even enter my mind, but the desire for dialogue. Is dialogue so blasphemous to your intentions for this post? Your tacit denial and corresponding ultimatum for me to turn the other direction in this post looks more like a disguised cop-out to examine my position at all. While one-upmanship may be what you have associated with my post, that mentality certainly cannot be traced back to anything I had written. I've paid all the due diligence I can, Michael. I even paid close attention to your dictionary entry and applied it to a Scriptural example from the Gospel material. And all open for your examination. This is hardly one-upmanship, but represents the actual scholarly activity itself: take a position, demonstrate it, corroborate it, and open it to the examination and confirmation of others. Your posts have shown concerns to associate my work with "elementary understanding" and to have "the last word". These associations simply have nothing to do with my posts and leave me puzzled as to your intentions. In the seminaries I've been to across the country (from MO to MA), I have not run into another scholar yet who simply leaves it at "you're wrong, and you need to leave now." There is nothing my heart would love more than to teach because I love lifelong learning. My prayer is that fellowship becomes more important to your heart than the craving to exile your critical colleagues.
Michael Halcomb Out of that entire post the metaphorical use of "exile" is all you focused on? What about "dialogue"? or "antilangauge"? or the authors I mentioned: Halliday/Hasan/Lakoff? Those references are hardly rhetoric Michael. Hardly. In every post I have elaborated more of my position on this topic for you to tackle, and have ever simply asked you to look them over. As far as the medium goes Michael, this is no different than any email communication. I have had a number of profitable exchanges with this 'medium', but they only come when the person on the other end makes the commitment to fruitful discussion by focusing on fruitful topics. What I am trying to discern is your strong urge to take this privately when this is not a conversation about private matters. This conversation could help any number of onlookers with the potential to work these issues. So I have to ask what the objective was for posting this forum in the first place? discussion? dialogue? research? opinions? or what? Again Michael, there is nothing preventing fruitful dialogue in any medium except the choices of the person doing the exchange. Rhetoric between any two social peoples is inevitable. The rhetoric is all you see because it's all you're focusing on. Kindly focus on the position and critique I offered and the conversation will be more fruitful. Or have we forgotten that the Apostle Paul made some of the most earth shattering letters from prison for goodness sake; I hardly think we are in any worse position than that. Again, my prayer is for dialogue, and, lord forbid, maybe even some fellowship through all this. Giving others the chance to chime in is exactly the reason I've not taken this privately, Michael. Discussion can breed fellowship when conducted in a spirit of service and challenge for excellence. This is exactly what Christ engaged with his disciples. And what became the Christian tradition through the centuries.
JR Woods
Order of Events when our Lord Returns
Hello all please let me explain the Wrath that we are not appointed for in 1 Thess 5:9. Paul
explains in 2 Thess 1 exactly what the wrath is he was talking about in his
first letter to the Thessalonians. It is the "Fiery Furnace" (Wrath
that is also called the "Furnace of Fire" (Matt 13) Wrath or the
"Plague" of Zech 14:12. This Wrath that we are not appointed for
comes from Jesus' mouth on the last day of the Age (7th Bowl Return). Father
has designed the last day of the Age just like what is talked about in Exodus
12, 1 Kings 18, and 2 Sam 6 (spinning Whirlwinds). Who are the “TARES”? They
are the “Sons of the Wicked One”. They will be Revealed after the “Wicked One
is Revealed”. He is known as the False messiah. The order of events on the last
day of the age are as follows:
Step 1.) {TARES ARE GATHERED} The Tares are Gathered Together onto the Threshing Floor Valley
of Armageddon and Jerusalem. (45 day process) (Matt 22, Rev 16, & Dan 12).
This is one of the purposes of the Bowls of Wrath. (Remember Matt 22 and the
key phrase found in both Matt 22 & Rev 16 "GATHER TOGETHER").
These make up most of the invited quests of Matt 22.
Step 2.) {THE GATHERING OF THE WHEAT TO THE BARN} The Harvest Rapture takes place when Jesus
breaks through the atmosphere over Bethlehem. However we are not
"WED" yet. The Super Cell Storm Cloud that Jesus rides on will appear
when He enters the atmosphere. I have over 25 verses that prove that Jesus is
Revealed riding the largest storm ever seen in Israel. The Sea of Glass is on top
of the storm. The storm will appear over
Bethlehem just before 9PM. We are told in Isaiah 18 that Jesus Returns in the
summer heat before the flower falls off of the ripening grapes. This would be
around the 2nd Week of June. In mid June 9PM could also be
considered: 1.) Twilight 2.) Evening Tide 3.) Time of the first watch 4.) Time of the evening sacrifice. Here are
some verses that prove Jesus and His Bride will be defending Jerusalem at 9PM
in the longest month of the year in regards to daylight: {Isa 17:14, Zech 14:7,
Ps 90:6, Exodus 12:6, Gen 8:11, Lam 2:19} We are joined to the Lord over
Bethlehem as a Wedding Procession is en-route to the Wedding Hall. The Wedding
will take place in the Valley of Armageddon over NAZARETH.
Step 3.) {THE TARES ARE BOUND} The Tares must be "Bound or Bind". This happens at 9PM
Twilight when we kill the Tares trying to escape. But en-route, the Storm
hovers over Jerusalem at 9pm (time of the evening sacrifice) to DEFEND
Jerusalem. We (His Bride Army) defend what is left of the inhabitants following
a 430 Day Siege of Jerusalem. (Remember Exodus 12:40-41 names the day of our
Lord's Return). This of course is when Jesus splits the Mount of Olives. We the
Bride Army cut-up the Tare Sacrifice at Twilight. Remember what Matt 13 says
about the order and method in which the Wheat & Tares must be separated and
how the Tares must be CAST OUT of the Land. This is one of the purposes of the
Bowls of Wrath. Now the Storm continues to move North to the Wedding Hall location
mentioned in Rev 16:16. Nazareth is the location for the Wedding. It is located
in the middle of a Valley that has the following names: 1.) The Valley of
Armageddon 2.) The Valley of Jezreel 3.) The Valley of Decision 4.) The Valley
of Meggido 5.) The plain of Meggido 6.) The Valley of Jehoshaphat.
Remember that Zech 9:14 says that the Super Cell storm will come out of the
South (Bethlehem). No surprise, we are told the "Elect One"
"Ruler of Israel" will COME FORTH from Bethlehem. The phrases
"Come Forth" & "Go Forth" always refer to the Coming of
our Lord at the end of the age not His birth. At the Wedding Hall (before the
Wedding) we cut-up the Tares Sacrifice there as well. The Tares there have been
trapped in the Pit for 45 days (Day 1335 - 1290) {Isa 24:22-23}.
Step 4.) {TARES ARE CAST OUT OF THE KINGDOM LIKE CHAFF} At Midnight, Jesus administers the
"WRATH THAT WE ARE NOT APPOINTED FOR". This represents the
"Burning of the Tares" sacrifice mentioned in 1 Kings 18 and Exodus
12. The Theme of the Night is "Twilight Kill is a Midnight Meal". The
Marriage takes place over Nazareth and the Birds and Beast are told by an angel
to begin eating the Tare Flesh. Again, remember Exodus 12: "All Flesh MUST
be ate by morning". The Birds and the Beasts will Summer and Winter on the
Tare bones. Worth noting is what is found in Exodus 12:6 " The Whole
Assembly of the congregation of Israel will KILL at twilight". Also note:
Exodus 12:29 "...at Midnight the Lord Struck..."the Match to light
the fire in a sense. 1 Kings 18 is all about the Final Showdown to see who the
REAL GOD is. It involves the Tares "Bulls of Bashan" Sacrifice. The
antichrist will bring down fire but our Lord will do it when everything is WET
due to the worst Storm of all time.
The 2 Bookends of the Day of the Lord
Isaiah 1:1 thru 10:11 is entirely about the "Wrath of the Lord of Hosts". Isaiah
10:12 thru 30:33 is entirely about the "Day of His Fierce Anger". The
Wrath of the Lord of Hosts is the 6th Seal thru the 6th Bowl. The Day of His
Fierce Anger is simply the 7th Bowl / Last Day of the Age / Revealing of
Christ/ Harvest-Rapture / Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty. Isaiah 13
(NKJV) does an excellent job of pointing this out. This chapter 13 says that
the earth will shake & THE SUN AND MOON WILL GO DARK in Both the
Wrath of the Lord of Hosts and in the Day of His Fierce Anger. This is exactly
what we see when we look at other scriptures. This means that the 6th Seal
signs and the 7th Bowl signs are BOOKENDS TO THE DAY OF THE LORD. The Left
Bookend is found in Isa 2, Rev 6, and Amos 8. The Right Bookend is found in Isa
24, Joel 3, and Rev 16. Again, we must take notice that the Sun and Moon go dark twice. Now Matt 24 makes sense and our
Lord's Return and Harvest occurs at His Revealing at the Right Bookend the “7th
Bowl”. Do not let Isa 2 confuse you. Even though “the Lord arises to shake the
earth in glory and majesty” this is talking about Jesus and MICHAEL standing up
in the throne room and turning around to start the period where Father hides
His face from Israel. He will no longer have pity and will no longer pass by.
Which is the “LAST TRUMPET”?
The Last Trumpet is held by Jesus as He is Revealed. The
Last Trumpet is blown by Jesus (our Lord God King of Kings and Lord of Lords) to
send forth the angels to gather the Elect Wheat. Scripture proves that the Last
Trump is blown at the 7th Bowl Revealing of Jesus. Here is the
proof: 1.) The 7th Trumpet is blown by the 7th Angel (Rev
11:15) 2.) Jesus blows the Last
Trumpet at His Revealing (Zech 9:14).
3.) Jesus blows the Last Trumpet with a “Great Sound” which is louder
than the previous 7 Trumpets. (Matt 24:31)
4.) The Lord Jesus Himself will descend with the “Trumpet of God” and
the Bride that is alive at the END will be caught up together with them in the
clouds to meet the Lord in the air en route to the Wedding Hall. ( 1Thes
4:16-17). 5.) The Last Trumpet blown
on the Last Day is also called the “Great Trumpet” (Isa 27:12-13) 6.) Jesus will blow the Great Trumpet with a
Great Sound and the noise of the Trumpet will come to the ends of the earth.
(Jer 25:27). In summary, we see when the Bride is “Joined to the Lord”. It is
on the last day at the last trump and is blown by the Lord God Jesus Himself.
The Last Day is the 7th Bowl at the Great Battle of God Almighty. We
are a Bride Army and we will kill the Tares from 9PM to 12 AM in Israel on that
night. This may not be how you envisioned your Wedding Day but Father knows
what He is doing. Remember, the whole
assembly of the Congregation of True Israel WILL kill at Twilight. (Exodus 12:6)
Is the Rapture the Harvest?
We are not "Joined to the Lord" until the "Revealing of Jesus". This
is what the title of this Book means. The Harvest is at the "End of
the Age" at the Last Day at the Last Trump at the Revealing of Jesus
Christ. Father could not make it any plainer than that. Daniel was told to rest
until Day 1,335 following the Abomination of Desolation. Then he would
"ARISE" to his inheritance. Micah 4 says that the Bride of Christ
will immediately begin to Thresh at the Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty
following her "ARISING". The
Wheat and the Tares MUST grow together. If you were to stop living and be taken to Heaven you would stop
growing. You will be here. The question is will you fall for the fake
messiah when He is Revealed at the 5th & 6th Seal. When you are “Joined to the Lord” you “ARISE to your Inheritance”.
Jesus said many of us (those In Christ) will be Martyred. "To be joined to the Lord" means
that when that moment happens you will be where He is for Eternity. You cannot
get raptured to Heaven years earlier but get joined to the Lord at the 7th
Bowl. Please don't believe the lies of Satan even though 90 % of Preachers
were taught those lies. The biggest problem the “CHURCH” has in understand the
Holy Bible is that it thinks many Books & Chapters of the Holy Bible are
for Gentiles and many others are for seed of Jacob Jews. There is only ONE
household of God and this family is who the Holy Bible was meant for. God Bless
Use paragraphs to break up your thoughts and help your audience digest your writing.
I’m glad you point this out. I went to a church where the Pastor believed this. Along with other unbiblical ideas. I no longer attend that church.
Not because of this belief but because the Holy Spirit was telling me something isn’t right about this church.
@lorineilson7529 - Study to show that you are approved by God...
I wrote a response to this video. Where do you stand now at your new Church concerning this topic?
Here is my response to the video:
This video is entirely too short to do the topic justice, and perhaps that is why you use generalities to attach the doctrine that you apparently do not have a grasp of.
At about 00:40, you established the Pre-Trib Rapture precedent by misrepresenting it. Minor, though it is, it immediately raises red flags. Not all Pre-Trib Rapture folks see themselves forever in “heaven,” as that is not what the Bible teaches.
At about 01:08, you deny scripture, saying that the BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THAT THERE WILL BE A RAPTURE. Have you read the Bible? 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says (believers) will be “caught” up to meet the Lord in the air. The word in Greek is Harpazo; however, in the Latin “rapio,” from which we get the transliteration rapture, which, like the Greek, means to seize, snatch, or catch away.
Let us see, Enoch walked with God and was not [where did he go?] Elijah ends up riding a fiery chariot; why in the world would there be no such thing as rapture?
At 01:40, you begin with Matthew 24:37-41 - I agree that it is not a rapture passage, though I disagree with your “left behind” analogy. With the view toward a New Heaven, New Earth, and a New Jerusalem (Revelation 21-22), this current situation is not our home. Jesus refers to the current heaven as His Father’s house (John 14:1-3), for which He has gone to prepare a place for us. Revelation explains our returning with Him in Chapter 19, following the Marriage Feast of the Lamb, to reign with Him for a thousand years (Revelation 20), which is followed by the White Throne Judgment for which the rest of the dead are raised (Revelation 20:5, 11), the old heaven and earth are destroyed. Those who are “left behind” are those “who dwell upon the earth” (Revelation 3:10). Paul recounts his desire to be with the Lord (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord). God provides the new body, identified as immortal and imperishable (1 Corinthians 15), and this begins in 1 Thessalonians Chapter four, verses thirteen through eighteen.
At 03:05 - you mention 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, leaving out vv. 13-15, which allows you to be misleading. Notice in v.14 that Paul says God will bring with Him (Jesus) those who have fallen asleep (euphemism for those who have died) in Jesus.
You also keep saying these believe they will live forever in heaven with Him; however, the text indicates they will “ever be” with Jesus, not necessarily forever in heaven, as Revelation 21-22 notes otherwise.
Beginning at about 03:45 - You said that Paul uses mixed imagery, “…we will meet Jesus in the clouds when He returns,” as a mixing of metaphors (Paul is really good at mixing metaphors). Mosaic, Danielic, and imperial metaphors combined. The problem here is that your interpretation is inconsistent with the text. To begin with, the context is what happens to those who died in Christ before Christ returns. When you read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (which you did not do in the video), you are confused about who is meeting whom. The Church is meeting Christ, right? But which group brings the SHOUT, or the TRUMPETS, the Church or Christ? Using your imperial imagery, it is Jesus who is welcoming the Church and changing the Church, not the other way around.
Paul tells the Thessalonians that their loved ones in Christ will accompany Him when He gathers the remainder of the Church (v.14). Those still alive on earth will meet the Lord in the air. The dead (nekros) will rise first; that is, the dead bodies will rise first, and then the bodies of the living. As you pointed out, Paul addresses the “body” issue in 1 Corinthians 15, which cannot inherit the kingdom of God in their current body because it is mortal and corrupt; therefore, it is changed in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, to come back to earth? No! But to join Jesus in His Father’s house (John 14:1-3), and then only for a season, because the Church will join the King of kings and Lord of lords when He returns to conquer evil and reign a thousand years on the earth (Revelation 19-20; cf., Zechariah 14; Daniel 2:40-45 & 7:13-14).
The picture is actually the faithful being spared from the wrath of God (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10) because the Church is not destined for wrath (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9) in that Christ suffered that wrath for us when He took upon Himself the wrath for our sins, so that God delivers us from the kingdom of darkness, and transfers us to the kingdom of His Son (Colossians 1:13-14).
At about 06:12, you said something to the effect that Jesus ushers in the New Jerusalem, the new city, the new heaven, and the new earth. Is this before Jesus reigns upon the earth for a thousand years? The rapture has nothing to do with the New Heaven, New Earth, or the New Jerusalem of Revelation, chapters twenty-one and twenty-two. In fact, the fate of the faithful and those who rejected Christ has already been determined and executed by this point.
I concur that Chapter 4 is not a rapture passage, and it is not universally accepted in the Pre-Trib crowd as such. It is, however, it is a segue from the Church to the Tribulation, where we see, among other wonderful things, the 24 Elders around the Throne of God. Who are the 24 Elders, and what or who do they represent?
In Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior ~
Thank you sir. That was the most thorough explanation I have heard yet. A ton of my unanswered questioned have been answered.
Kingdom Bound : What would be your questions? It is highly doubtful that you will find real answers to your questions either in the attached video or most of the posts though there is a few here who are surprisingly more aware than most average typical unchanged mortal humans.
Enigma I wasn’t going to respond to your question/statement however now after replaying the video I understand why you asked or rather made the statement you did. Yeah, there is nothing I need to know from you. I mainly received revelation on somethings i ask our Father in heaven for. Thanks though!
What about Jesus saying in Revelation 3:10 because you kept my command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on earth. Or 2Thessilonians 2:7, the restrainer, will be taken out of the way. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit that dwells in the heart of the believer. How can you take this out of the way, and not remove the person? So the Holy Spirit is gone but the believer is still here? 1 Thessalonians 4:16 ? Are you calling this a metaphor? The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the Trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. .... How can we comfort one another if we plan to go through the great Tribulation? He left out the Bride of Christ, the Matthew 25 parable of the wise and foolish Virgins. You post and mid trib believers are going to be shocked to the core when Christ raptures you out before the 70th week of Daniel.
@Mike
Mark forgot to mention the verses in Matthew chapter 24:29,30,31
And 2 Thessalonians chapter two verses 3-12
@@halfulford3081 spot on my brother. Let the Bible do the talking.
The Rapture is very clearly on Judgement Day -
2 Thessalonians 1:9-10
[9] They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, [10] when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come except there be a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. 2 Thessalonians 2:3
This is something that I never imagined that I would ever be thinking or talking about in my lifetime. I am referring to the political and religious landscapes around the world and the path that both are taking right now. We have governments all around the world right now, including the United States that are mandating jabs for employers and educational institutions, as well as healthcare. The United States is being led by an incapable administration, and many of our allies are experiencing the same thing at this time. Law enforcement is being used in ways that were never meant to be used by our governments to start enforcing their mandates, or declaring parents who are vocally expressing their discontent about their local school systems. I would humbly encourage everyone to take off their blinders and look at what is going on around the world. DO NOT follow any one politician or political party or religion, or religious figure. Also, do not put your faith in the media, and that you are receiving accurate and reliable information. They will be part of the great deception that has already started. The current administration in the U.S. is just the beginning of it all, and is about to get dramatically worse in the next political cycle. The writing is on the walls, please take time to read it, but not to long. For those that are in Christ, you will already know what I am referring to. There are those that believe in God, but are not in Christ yet. Get saved now.
This present administration and their co horts are being brought down. We are headed for The Great Awakening .The Illuminati, Khazarian Mafia, Deep State, Cabal, Satanist are being eradicated. We will see the biggest move of God ever.
👏🏻👏🏻
It will probably only get worse unless God decides to spare us or cut us some slack. He can still turn things around.
Wow.. Thank you for making clear the meaning of TAKEN & LEFT BEHIND .. to Gid Be The Glory 🙏
Finally, some common sense.
This is why I refuse to attend any church. People all teach something different. The Bible tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling; that is what I am doing.
Welcome to the club.
I wouldn’t step into a brick temple ever
Again
@@user-kq5qp6dh8l Yet, I think as a believer and disciple of Jesus you must careful to obey scripture. It's fine to shun those liberal and legalistic church bodies
But the scripture shows us a definite pattern from the early church..."And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and prayers."(Acts 2:42)
"Whenever you come together, each of you has a ....." (1 Corinthians 14:26)..
"not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you the Day approaching" (Hebrews 10:25)
@@christophergibson7155 that was the fledgling called out:
Church is a wrong translation , that’s where Satan got in on the Word .
Correct is : called out!
So would you fellowship with the Crazy charasmaniacs .
Pentecostal African (churches) buildings
Are sick with demonic spirits.
The Africans do not let go of there Juju
And black magic:
So church…. Bricks and mortar.
Eklesia: cannot be translated brick building :
The called out is correct.
@@user-kq5qp6dh8l Yes, I agree that church means, "the called out ones".
But that means called "out of the world".
"If you were of the world, the world would love it's own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world
therefore the world hates you." (Jn. 15:19)
Not all churches (called out ones) are evil as you are implying. Those that teach the doctrines of Christ, holiness, living by the Holy Spirit, preaching the gospel to the lost, etc... are the true church contending for the faith once delivered to the saints.
@@christophergibson7155 called out of brick buildings and synagogues of satan.
Good luck on getting possessed when your in the Pentecostal temples.
Jesus never went into a so called church!
Answer that
Jesus said: follow me.
It’s all in the Word.
The primitive called out only had sayings passes on , we have the full canon.
The Holy Ghost is the teacher
I believe we will be rapture based on what Paul wrote in his epistles. I think the people that are left for the tribulation will have a chance to repent and be saved. I have reason to know that Jesus is coming back soon! In my life time He will come back! Everday I thank the Father for Jesus who is my redeemer. Thank you Jesus for the cross!
Just curious but what is your reason to know that Jesus is coming back soon and what is soon to you?
I used to be really into the 'Rapture' Beth but lets face it; IF your name isn't written in the Lamb's Book of Life and your not saved, you won't be 'taken out of the way' either. IF there is a Rapture, I'm convinced that the majority of the people taken away will not have believed in it at all but they professed their Faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus while there are so many that say they believe in This but say little about Jesus. IF the Rapture doesn't happen when 'they' think it will they may fall away and become so bitter they may betray 'others' what profess their believe in Jesus. The only thing we can do is make sure your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life or Jesus above all else and EVERYTHING else.
You are wrong... Paul never wrote that... men twisted it ... At the last trumpet - Revelation 11:15 - 1 Corinthians 15:52. Don't be so Biblically illiterate - not good!!
@@roseychicka2298 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Yeah, so I agree... I can't understand how the "rapture theory" types use Paul as their documentation - but then ignore his hard statement that a return to Jesus will not happen until after the antichrist is on earth and claiming to be God... makes no sense! God bless you!
The doctrine of the Tribulation is also not Biblical and again is created by Evangelical groups.
The issue is, what am I doing now? -- and where am I today, living before God's face? We have many exhortations in the Scriptures that are more pressing for me personally than to think about tomorrow. There is a lot we don't understand -- God doesn't spell everything out for us, and we may all be very surprised on that day.
"Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me."
Anyone who discusses this should use compassion. Many people believe the end is kinda close. So believing in the rapture is very comforting, because it is so frightening to think that we or our children will go through the holocaust of the tribulation. Also, all the prophetic books have a call to action, so whichever position you espouse, please include in that message how it should call us to live right now, and where we can find comfort and security.
1 Timothy 5:24-25
24 Some men’s sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.
So I’m to believe God makes the Church go through the tribulation, which is the wrath of God, and THEN brings His Church to the wedding banquet with Jesus? Beating up the bride before the wedding seems kind of odd, don’t ya think?
Not nearly as odd as killing the groom before the wedding.
The first part of tribulation is not the wrath of God it is tribulation. The wrath of God starts Rev 6: 12-17
God people always go through tribulations you ain’t special to be taken out of here. You can believe all you want you the church going to be here million of Christians was killed back in the dark ages and it will happen again you ain’t special.
I would really hate for my mom to go through the great tribulation she already been through enough she most beautiful woman i ever know with a heart for Jesus I pray that there is a rapture im not afraid of the great tribulation I more worry about my mom and the people I care about that go through it and God blessed....
Awgust Streaty, Jesus said to watch (be faithful and repent) and pray always to be counted worthy to escape all the things coming and stand before the Son of man. And you’re correct that Rev 3:10 shows Jesus rewarding a faithful church by promising to keep the away from the great tribulation. He said that he would keep them away from the TIME of testing that’s coming on the WHOLE inhabited world to test EVERYONE dwelling on earth, which is clearly only possible with something like a pre-great-trib Rapture to heaven.
And remember that Rom 11:25-26 says that Israel is hardened until the fullness of Gentiles comes in, and in this way _all Israel_ shall be saved. That is seen in Rev 7 where angels restrain the great tribulation a little longer during an Israelite revival while raptured church celebrate their entry into heaven.
I only listen to those that get this right, if they get this right they'll be right on other issues(good job young man, may the lord bless you for spreading the truth)
For a decade or more, I was a fervent "raptureist". Then, when in a bible college preparing for the ministry, I was told by my college instructors to THINK and PROVE every doctrine...especially the "rapture" doctrine.
Theological colleges are supposed to teach early church history and customs, Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic renderings...that particular study in college lasted a full year learning the way of proper interpretation...many students flunked out.
Within 2-years I finally admitted to myself and others that I had been duped into believing a "doctrine" that never existed until the 1830s, never taught in the Early Church onward. The Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic could not support the rapture or its surrounding false teaching in any manner.
Invented/created "truths" are not truths from the Lord as they are continually proven false with each earthly hardship in America and the Middle East. The hysteria continues to come and go so where is the truth?
Noah’s genealogy and seed was pure. God wiped out the Nephilim in those days. And all the DNA intermingling as well
Interesting to think people are saying covid vax messes with DNA. Not sure if that's true or not
Good to hear you young man about Rapture. Why You didn’t mention that the word, “ Rapture “ i# not in the Bible? Many sincere, but mistaken Christians do mention this point that the word called “Rapture” is not there in the Bible. Then they also shouldn’t believe in “Trinity” because this Word also not there in the Bible. Concept is there for both Words. We have to ask Lord Holy Spirit, to teach us Th3 Word. He will teach and guide us in all Truth. In short, I will recommend every on3 to read Matthew 17:1-9. It fully explains in details about Rapture..
If there is no rapture then why would Jesus say in
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. ( Instead of saying escape wouldn't he say pray that you're worthy to endure ? )
Did Daniel escape the mouths of the lions? Was Daniel in the lions den? Did Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego escape the flames of the fiery furnace? Were Shadrach, Meshaach and Abednego in the fiery furnace and who was the fourth man in there with them? Was Noah on the earth when it was flooded? Did Noah escape the danger of the flood? Why was not Noah raptured off the earth before the flood instead of remaining on earth to ride it out? Jesus said it would be as it was in the days of Noah. I will take Jesus over anyone else; it will be as the days of Noah.
@@grindercap you do realize Luke 21:36 are the words of Jesus also.
@@tinac5468
Of course! The point is that when Jesus describes what the event from Luke 21:36 will be like He states that it will be as in the days of Noah when the wicked were removed (taken) and the righteous remained on earth.
Quite a difference from those who teach the rapture.
One might also note that in Revelation 11 the wrath of God comes after the tribulation and after the two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem.
The scriptures in Revelation 11 give a completely different order of events.
You are forced to reject and twist scripture to teach a pre-trib rapture, and many are more than happy to do so.
Again Revelation 11 states that after God's wrath is executed the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ.
You do want to be in God's kingdom don't you? Again, as it was in the days of Noah to remain on earth is the thing to do; just as Jesus described.
The trump mentioned in all 4 of these Bible passages is the same trump , the last trump { the 7th trump } . This is so easy , even a small child can understand .
Here's are goods doc.
Understanding Ezekiel
Dispensational premillennialism can accommodate all the details in Ezekiel's many prophecies by giving them their most literal and normal interpretation. Chapters 33-48 are primarily eschatological and reveal a restoration for Israel/Judah that is future, final, purposeful, and preparatory for the advent of the final state of all creation. Passages in Ezekiel and elsewhere reveal at least seven characteristics of the kingdom of God.
First, the kingdom is literal and will have Jerusalem as its capital (Ezek 36:33-38; Ps 48; Isa 2:1-4; Obad 12-21; Zech 14:1-21). The king will be a divine-human person who reigns as a descendant of David and has divine authority (37:24-28; Isa 11:1-9; 32:1-2; Jer 23:1-6).
Second, the government of the kingdom will be theocratic. The divine-human king will reign as God's personal representative (Ezek 34:11-24). He will have the government upon his shoulders (Isa 9:6) and receive dominion and glory (Dan 7:14). He will reign from God's holy hill called Zion (Ps 2:6; Isa 60:1-14) and will perform all legislative, judicial, and executive functions of government (Ezek 34:17-24; 37:24; Isa 33:17-24).
Third, the administration of the kingdom will be performed by a spiritual nobility made up of Old Testament believers (Ezek 37:24-25; Dan 7:18, 22, 27), the church (1 Cor 6:2; Rev 3:21; 20:6), and martyrs from the tribulation (Rev 20:4).
Fourth, while the kingdom will have a physical manifestation, its character is spiritual. It will be initiated, operated, and maintained by the Spirit of God (Ezek 36:24-28; Jer 23:5-6; 31:34; Rom 8:1-39). The Spirit will be in individuals to empower them and to grant knowledge, wisdom, and direction (Jer 31:31-34).
Fifth, the ethical conduct of the king, the rulers, and the citizens will give evidence of the spiritual character of this kingdom (Ezek 36:27, 31; 37:24; Jer 33:14-16). God's law will go forth from Jerusalem, which will be the hub of a great worldwide administrative system (Isa 2:1-4; Zech 8:20-23). The spiritual character of the kingdom also will result in physical changes in and around Jerusalem, such as topography (Zech 14:3-4), climate (Isa 32:15-16; 35:7), agricultural productivity (Isa 35:1-5; Amos 9:13), radical improvements in human health (Isa 35:5-6; 65:20-23; Zech 8:4), and even in animal behavior (Isa 11:6-9; 65:25).
Sixth, the ruler of the kingdom will unite the offices of prophet, priest, and king. He will be a priest after the order of Melchizedek (Ps 110; Zech 3:8-10; 6:9-15; Heb 7:1-27). He will set up a central sanctuary, and all nations will come to it (Ezek 37:26-28; Zech 8:9, 21; 14:9, 16). The glory of God in the sanctuary will signal his presence (Ezek 43:1-7), and sacrificial worship will be his memorial (Ezek 46:1-24).
Seventh, the water of life will flow freely from the rebuilt sanctuary (Ezek 47:1-12). This water will provide healing and produce the trees of healing and blessing for all nations (Rev 22:1-3) and signal the removal of the curse of sin.
Lamar Cooper
Introduction: Commentary on Ezekiel
New American Commentary
Ezekiel 13:20 KJV - Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
Enoch and Elijah were "taken" by God.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, (bowls of wrath) but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:9
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the *day of Christ* is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for *that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,* and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonian 2:2-3
Yahusha will 'take up' His saints on LAST TRUMPET, saving them from 7 BOWLS OF WRATH. 1 Cor 15:51-52
All saints whom raptured will be on sea of glass witnessing 7 bowls of wrath poured on earth. Rev 15-16
Then, the wedding supper of the lamb. After the wedding, Yahusha will return to earth on white horse to judge and rule earth for a thousand years. Rev 19
Thank you, thank you. People have no ideal how dangerous this false doctrine is. When Satan come down with wrath those people taken away by that doctrine will fail in their belief in Elohim all together and be more than willing to bow to Satan to acquire his false peace. His children have been preparing and are ready. If you are just now hearing this, quickly get ready. Remember your armor, call on His name (YHWH) Staff in hand shoes on feet ready to move. Have ears to hear and eyes to see so that He can lead you to safety and hide you in His secret place. Many who call themselves His lack faith. They don't believe in Yahs mighty hand moving among us today. Pray for them. His people hear His voice and obey. If you are not listening how will you obey?
us believers dont need no tribulation to get saved .. we are already saved .. this is gods time to deal with israel and the unsaved .. there is a rapture .. and not appointed to wrath ..
Study church history, particularly the patristic era and especially the ante nicene period and you should find, through careful study that the majority of the early church taught a post-tribulational premillenialism. Dispensationalism and the teaching of pre-tribulationism was practically not even heard of in any popular form until about the 1830's. The bible teaches a singular glorious appearing of Jesus Christ. I think you get your theology from your pastor or church that tell you this rather than studying it through yourself. It doesn't mean that they are not saved, but simply that they are incorrect on this subject I think. Take care
The tribulation is the wrath of satan against christianity and God's wrath is only for the ones who have the mark of the beast. There is no doubt that the secret rapture is a false teaching I'm absolutely certain about that. I discovered that from reading the bible and prayer.
False teaching from darby'ism of the 1830's
Proverbs 10:30 "The righteous will never be removed, But the wicked will not inhabit the earth." Proverbs 2:22 "But the wicked will be cut off from the earth, And the unfaithful will be uprooted from it." Luke 17:34-37 does specify who is taken in a "rapture". In verse 37 the apostles ask where the one is taken. Eagles are scavengers and apparently where the body of the one is taken is found by scavengers.
Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch’s translation and Elijah’s being “caught up” as previews of the Rapture. “For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up.”
This has been a major issue for me since 1999 when I read the bible. But I do believe that Christians are going to be going up to the sky to meet Jesus and come back for the battle of armageddon. It will happen in a day as I understand.
Thank you sir for telling the truth .
Just like the Jewish elders couldn’t guess and understand the prophecies regarding Jesus, I don’t believe we can either. What really ends up happening can be completely outside of our understanding so rapture or no rapture we will not know until these things pass.
Courtney B, first century Jewish leaders missed the Lord's visitation, and the vast majority of the nation went down with them. I believe that Jesus warned us of the same danger when he said to watch because you don't know when the Son of man will come. And Jesus expounded on this in Luke 21:34-36 where he warned everyone to repent from sin, to watch and pray always to be accounted worthy to escape all the things that are coming to pass and stand before the Son of man.
But the vast majority of church leaders don't understand the rapture escape, so the vast majority of the church will be left behind, IMHO.
Thank you Brother , we Love the truth .
I agree, Matt 24 should not be used as a passage to support the rapture. 1 Thes 4 & 1 Cor 15, however, I believe should be taken for what the text says. Whenever we say "what Paul is really saying", then we are pushing our interpretation into the text, rather than letting the text tell us what God says. That's risky. As far as Rev 4, I've never thought of that as a support for rapture either.
Yes, unfortunately, common sense wont get you to heaven.
Even though the "rapture" isn't mentioned, it is very biblical. I don't know what bible you are learning from, but much of the debate on this issue is because it is so many people believe that its biblical. They just don't agree when. Don't worry if its true or not. Just be ready :)
I just laughed the whole time when he said that Paul was just using "imagery"
So i've been studying pre tribulation and mid tribulation and found something very critical to the pre trib group. Their entire doctrine seems to hinge on the interpretation of the word apostasia as referenced in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. They hinge on the idea that it should mean "to physically depart". In every verse this word is used in greek, its always in reference to defecting or rebelling. There are referenced made by the pre trib group such as Acts 12:10 and 2 Cor. 12:8, in which case the greek words used are either aposti, or apesti. These words are derivatives of aphistēmi, which means to physically leave. So they are hoping that everyone can make an exception for the meaning of the word in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 to mean physically leave, instead of defect or rebel like in every other verse in which apostasia is used. If we keep consistent with scripture and have apostasia mean to defect or rebel, then what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians completely dismantles the idea that people will be taken away before the anti Christ is revealed. And in the case that you think Paul is wrong, then you must also agree that the bible is NOT inherent.
I agree with you on the Rapture of the Church. The Bible only talks about the Resurrection which will be at the end of the Tribulation. Why would believers want to leave early and not stay to convert some new believers during their trouble. That is what we are suppose to be doing anyway. I want as many people as possible to get into God's Kingdom. I have already ask God to leave me here if there is an early Rapture of the Church so I can convert people to Jesus Christ.
Williamv Godfrey : You are correct in most of your post in that there is no "rapture" as often in deception taught as being "prior to" or "during" the Tribulation and anyone who falls for that non-Biblical deception is directly cursed and anyone who makes the fatal mistake of teaching the false idea to others not only falls under the warned curses but even worse have their names permanently removed from the "Book of Life" for their actions. There is even now some who believe themselves now saved who are unfortunately not saved leading to some who were very surprised in the end and will be again should their history now not change. God has given many a possible reprieve in grace by offering them the chance to alter their past and make different choices in this time right now. Also, while on the topic of much taught deceptions among men, the two witnesses are busy with their actual primary purpose here on Earth from the 3 1/2 year middle point of the Tribulation all the way until the very end of the Tribulation where their much welcomed and very long time waited deaths is itself the very event which official closes and ends the 7 year Tribulation simultaneously sealing the fate of what happens next for each person 3 1/2 days later. In congrast, a great many churches falsely teach that the two witnesses are active from the beginning to the middle of the Tribulation which is a non-Biblical deception meant to force additional support for the great many other false narrative that is all part of the Great Deception -- the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture, which you spoke upon, is a trap far more dangerous than most unchanged mortal humans can comprehend. Incidentally, the "Resurrection" greatly misunderstood often by mortal men who have often only the perspective of the Earth alone and usually do not comprehend or understand what is actually being discussed and like the rapture is not what, when, nor for the purpose that most people think. It might be helpful to know who you are speaking with now else these words might make little sense to you so in wisdom understand Hebrews 13:2 and Amos 3:7 and then pay attention closely to what is written in what is now John 21:18-24 as well as also Revelation 1:9, Revelation 10:5-11, Revelation 11:1-3. So also does Daniel 12 discuss the same important point and yes you could say I have had a few more years than most to understand these matters. ;-)
Williamv Godfrey, nobody in their right mind would rather endure the torture of the worst years in human history on Earth rather than be honored to accept God’s invitation to escape that and attend the marriage supper of the Lamb around the God’s Throne in Heaven.
@@enigmagroup413, that's madness.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 : The only "madness", as you posted, would be found in your own failure to trust what is written in the Bible or worse yet of your own lack of faith in God regardless whether you are aware. Understand that when I speak, it is without exception always in perfect agreement with both of these! This you can be absolutely certain. If on any point you waiver or fail to understand, it is upon that same point you have fallen to deception, standing not with He who sent me!
@@biblehistoryscience3530 : "worsr years" -- God has made no invitation to escape the Tribulation whatsoever but has made certain promoses of help getting through it as well as comments with regard that death on Earth (which you really should not fear) is nothing to be concerned about and those who do die during the Tribulation are far "more blessed". By the way, the Tribulation is not the worst and has nothing to do with God. There is a time coming however that is far worse which does indeed have to do with God and unlike the Tribulation has no such escape in death as is possible during the Tribulation. Unfortunately you don't have any idea what is actually coming or why and combined with false deceptive teachings keeping you ignorant of these subjects all xombined with common mortal fears keeps you from seeing or understanding any of the bigger picture and also unfortunately seperates you from God. unfortunately
Excellent take, I agree fully with this. What denomination are you guys?
Forgive me for I am not a seminarian, nor am I an expert at end times. I do want to ask a couple of questions first. My first question comes from the idea in the Bible which talks about how (Matt. 24:21) there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now - and never to be equaled again. . .when will this take place? We've had the Holocaust, and many other wicked times, even recently, but this says that it will be unequaled in all of history. I feel this is a hard one to argue against. I understand that you are not arguing that there will not be a tribulation, but why, which is my second question, is it then that when we read from Luke (21:36) Jesus says to be on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man? What are they/we supposed to escape from? Death? If that is so, what does He mean if He wants us to escape death? And further more how do we escape it without being raptured, if we are even to be saved from death, or the wrath of the tribulation? Enoch comes to mind, who is the first to receive this rapture of which you (and forgive me for any disrespect that you might think I have) so mockingly push your nose up to. I only say this because of your demeanor. You are talking about a subject that is very crucial in the Church today, and you act like it's a joke. Let us also look at 1 Thess 1:8-10, "The Lord's message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia - your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, for they themselves report that what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to (catch this) WAIT for his Son from (Where?) heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus, who rescues us from the (look back at Luke 21:36) coming wrath. Did any of these disciples, save John, escape the wrath to come? No, they were all martyred, even Paul. Surely, as maybe your argument would be, some did escape, but if you compare Luke 21:36 to this passage they didn't escape the worst time in history and I wouldn't try to make the argument that they escaped the worst time in their history because that's not what the Bible says. We now move on to you, and Dr. Ben Witherington's "new" (new to me at least) idea about how Noah and his family were not raptured, but were "left behind." Is it really better to be left behind as you so (again) mockingly said? Let's see this example from the real picture that Jesus gives. The Bible tells us that in the days of Noah there was no one, zero, righteous before God except Noah (and family) so in order for Noah and his family to be saved they had to build an ark to float, on top, out of the way of the wrath of God, not left behind, or in a submarine (as your idea seems to insist). Your assessment about Noah and his family being left behind is false. Why is it false? Because they were raptured "caught up" or "taken away" from the wrath of God, they were not left. Being left means they stayed and the others (the wicked) left. They made a boat that placed them on top of the flooded earth, they were not in a (again) submarine, going through the waters. God brought them up, out, raptured, and brought them back down after the land was dried enough for them. Your idea has no stand. Jesus was talking about how bad it was during the days of Noah, the same Jesus tells us before he returns it will be the worst in history. How do you answer the fact that Noah and the ark were lifted up above the earth, and on top of the waters, escaping the wrath that came? You can't, and your stance has now weight. What you and your school did, it seems, is tried to go around it and make up a nightmare scenario for any who do not believe in a rapture. Your idea also expels the idea of the sudden coming of Jesus, and pushes to the side the need to be and to get people saved and sanctified.
I am not OP, but (I think), like you, I was raised in a tradition that taught the rapture. I stopped believing in the rapture because it's not in the Bible. It's the bad people who are taken, not the Christians. Matthew 24 tells us who will be taken and who will be left, and also uses the flood as the analogy/comparison. "37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." --Matthew 24:37-39. It says very clearly, that the bad people were the ones taken away. They were taken away by death on a mass scale. This will happen again in Revelation Ch 14.
"18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs." --Revelation 14:18-20
Revelation 14 also overlaps with the parable of the wheat and the tares, where both were allowed to grow up together, and the weeds were then harvested first and thrown into the fire.
I challenge you to show me anything in Revelation, prior to Ch14, where there is any kind of taking up. As for when the great tribulation will occur; it hasn't happened yet, and yes, it will be worse than WWII, Islam, the Mongols, and all the worst horrors which have occurred all throughout history until now, and then. No, it hasn't happened yet, and no, we don't know when it will happen, but it looks like it will be precipitated by an asteroid striking the Earth (Revelation 8:8-9). We are not going to be beamed up to Heaven to escape these horrors. Everyone needs to face the truth. No church taught the rapture prior to the 1800s, when it was popularized by John Nelson Darby. You can look it up.
A proverb says: "there is no worse blind than the one who does not want to see." Many do not agree that the rapture exists. Those of the kingdom are now very comfortable, but that will not last long! No wonder the Bible says "he who has an ear, let him hear." Because many will not be able to listen and understand.
This young man has a hard time believing what the bible says. The rapture is an actual event to come. It’s timing may be debatable (pre, mid, post, etc) but no one should doubt or teach it’s not actually going to happen.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall raises first (implying that those who are still alive will rise immediately next): then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP (Rapture) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord (where?) in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Where in the bible talks about it?
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-4
1 Thess 1:10 "delivers us from the Wrath to come" 1 Thess 4:17 "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, & thus we shall always be with the Lord." 1 Thess 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thess 2:1 "our gathering together to Him". 2 Thess 1:3, "Let no one in any way decieve you, for unless the apostasy (Apostasia = departure) comes first, & the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction." 2 Thess 2:4 "he who now restrains (Holy Spirit of whom we are sealed with at the moment of salvation) until he is taken out of the way"... the messages to the churches in Revelation tell us that some churches are assured to not suffer the Wrath of God as a gift. Matthew tells us this as well.. I have over 600 pages of study on this subject and I assure you what this man speaks is not true! I have studied pre trib, mid trib & post trib... the latter two make no sense when you do a complete study. The Matthew 24:37-41 speaks of the 2nd coming where the ones left are believers and the ones taken are unbelievers just like in the days of Noah where Noah & his family repopulated the earth and the evil ones were swept away in the flood (taken out).. the believers left will enter the Millennial reign of Christ to repopulate the earth. This is not the rapture... but the end of the Great tribulation... there is tribulation and then Great tribulation.. they are different and that is where many people get confused. People also become confused with the Wrath of God and the Day of the Lord. Message me if you want more detailed info.
Excellent book (I’ve had 4, given 3 away since 1988: “The meaning of the Millenium”
4 authors: Each present their eschatological view. Next 3 sections, there is a counterpoint by the other 3. This cycle continues for all 4 viewpoints, with the books author as an ‘interlocutor’ or ‘moderator’.
You’ll need your Bible with you on each section.
This video starts off in all the wrong places. He tries to circle back, but his assessment of Pre-mil/Pre-Trib does great injustice (oh BTW, I hold to a “Realized Millennium” viewpoint
this was taught in the Firsty century 1 Thess 4 and WE that are alive and remain. Paul expected the rapture in his life time.
before the temple was destroyed in 70 AD
Please don’t put words in Paul’s mouth. Respectfully. Please .. Paul who wrote by revelation about what the Spirit says about the end times 2nd Tim .. He knew he would be long gone before these days . In which we live .. Paul stated that there must be things to happen before the day of the Lord 2nd thess ..
The author of Revelation, "we'll call him John at this point". What?
It would be great to see the Asbury/NT Wright/traditional protestant crowd join with Jonathan Welton/new covenant crowd on this particular topic where there is deep agreement
Ok, I saw another video that stated that there will be no pre-tribulation rapture. This preacher referred to biblical verses to support his teachings. But after listening to your version, I'm skeptical. I've never heard that said about John on Patmos island, how people think he was raptured while having a vision and therefore, we believe we'll be raptured likewise. You're the first I've heard say that. You lost me right there. I still believe there won't be a PT rapture, but it's based on biblical principles, not the disparaging statement you made.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, (bowls of wrath) but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 5:9
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the *day of Christ* is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for *that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,* and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonian 2:2-3
Yahusha will 'take up' His saints on LAST TRUMPET, saving them from 7 BOWLS OF WRATH. 1 Cor 15:51-52
All saints whom raptured will be on sea of glass witnessing 7 bowls of wrath poured on earth. Rev 15-16
Then, the wedding supper of the lamb. After the wedding, Yahusha will return to earth on white horse to judge and rule earth for a thousand years. Rev 19
Matt 24:39 "took(strongs 142) them all away(strongs 142 Airo)". Airo - to remove, to carry away. The wicked were removed from the earth, and Noah etal were left behind.
vs 40 "one taken(strongs 3880 Paralambano) the other left(strongs 863 Aphiemi)." Paralambano - to take with one's self, to join to one's self; Aphemi - to send away, to leave, go way from one, abandon.
So NO, The context of the verse is not that you want to be left behind and abandoned when Christ returns. I dont accept the Rapture teachings myself, but the verses in Matthew are clearly not saying that you would want to be left behind, regardless.
Anthony M, how could Jesus have been describing the second coming after the great tribulation when he said one is taken and another left behind from their bed and workplace, since all the detail of that time refute that interpretation? For example, Jesus said the world will hate and kill Christians, and many will fall away and betray one another, and love will grow cold, and Christians won't be able to buy or sell, and they will be under a global death sentence.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 I am not quite sure what your response is in reference to. The video is not telling the truth when it claims the passages of Matt 24:39,40 indicate that it is better to be left behind in the scenario. It claims that you *want* to be left behind, when the Greek implies *abandonment* instead. When I move to a new house, I (Paralambano) what I want to keep and (Aphiemi) the rest behind.
@@anthonym2499, sorry, I misunderstood what you said. Never mind.
Thank you. Well studied, well presented.
It's diabolical.
@@1969cmp You're diabolical.
@@jf8461 he is messed up by the evil one.. Tell your Dr. to do more study into what he is denying and he will see for himself..
@debiwhelan8382 - Here is a counter to this video and its denial of Rapture in the Bible:
This video is entirely too short to do the topic justice, and perhaps that is why you use generalities to attach the doctrine that you apparently do not have a grasp of.
At about 00:40, you established the Pre-Trib Rapture precedent by misrepresenting it. Minor, though it is, it immediately raises red flags. Not all Pre-Trib Rapture folks see themselves forever in “heaven,” as that is not what the Bible teaches.
At about 01:08, you deny scripture, saying that the BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THAT THERE WILL BE A RAPTURE. Have you read the Bible? 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says (believers) will be “caught” up to meet the Lord in the air. The word in Greek is Harpazo; however, in the Latin “rapio,” from which we get the transliteration rapture, which, like the Greek, means to seize, snatch, or catch away.
Let us see, Enoch walked with God and was not [where did he go?] Elijah ends up riding a fiery chariot; why in the world would there be no such thing as rapture?
At 01:40, you begin with Matthew 24:37-41 - I agree that it is not a rapture passage, though I disagree with your “left behind” analogy. With the view toward a New Heaven, New Earth, and a New Jerusalem (Revelation 21-22), this current situation is not our home. Jesus refers to the current heaven as His Father’s house (John 14:1-3), for which He has gone to prepare a place for us. Revelation explains our returning with Him in Chapter 19, following the Marriage Feast of the Lamb, to reign with Him for a thousand years (Revelation 20), which is followed by the White Throne Judgment for which the rest of the dead are raised (Revelation 20:5, 11), the old heaven and earth are destroyed. Those who are “left behind” are those “who dwell upon the earth” (Revelation 3:10). Paul recounts his desire to be with the Lord (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord). God provides the new body, identified as immortal and imperishable (1 Corinthians 15), and this begins in 1 Thessalonians Chapter four, verses thirteen through eighteen.
At 03:05 - you mention 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, leaving out vv. 13-15, which allows you to be misleading. Notice in v.14 that Paul says God will bring with Him (Jesus) those who have fallen asleep (euphemism for those who have died) in Jesus.
You also keep saying these believe they will live forever in heaven with Him; however, the text indicates they will “ever be” with Jesus, not necessarily forever in heaven, as Revelation 21-22 notes otherwise.
Beginning at about 03:45 - You said that Paul uses mixed imagery, “…we will meet Jesus in the clouds when He returns,” as a mixing of metaphors (Paul is really good at mixing metaphors). Mosaic, Danielic, and imperial metaphors combined. The problem here is that your interpretation is inconsistent with the text. To begin with, the context is what happens to those who died in Christ before Christ returns. When you read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (which you did not do in the video), you are confused about who is meeting whom. The Church is meeting Christ, right? But which group brings the SHOUT, or the TRUMPETS, the Church or Christ? Using your imperial imagery, it is Jesus who is welcoming the Church and changing the Church, not the other way around.
Paul tells the Thessalonians that their loved ones in Christ will accompany Him when He gathers the remainder of the Church (v.14). Those still alive on earth will meet the Lord in the air. The dead (nekros) will rise first; that is, the dead bodies will rise first, and then the bodies of the living. As you pointed out, Paul addresses the “body” issue in 1 Corinthians 15, which cannot inherit the kingdom of God in their current body because it is mortal and corrupt; therefore, it is changed in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, to come back to earth? No! But to join Jesus in His Father’s house (John 14:1-3), and then only for a season, because the Church will join the King of kings and Lord of lords when He returns to conquer evil and reign a thousand years on the earth (Revelation 19-20; cf., Zechariah 14; Daniel 2:40-45 & 7:13-14).
The picture is actually the faithful being spared from the wrath of God (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10) because the Church is not destined for wrath (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9) in that Christ suffered that wrath for us when He took upon Himself the wrath for our sins, so that God delivers us from the kingdom of darkness, and transfers us to the kingdom of His Son (Colossians 1:13-14).
At about 06:12, you said something to the effect that Jesus ushers in the New Jerusalem, the new city, the new heaven, and the new earth. Is this before Jesus reigns upon the earth for a thousand years? The rapture has nothing to do with the New Heaven, New Earth, or the New Jerusalem of Revelation, chapters twenty-one and twenty-two. In fact, the fate of the faithful and those who rejected Christ has already been determined and executed by this point.
I concur that Chapter 4 is not a rapture passage, and it is not universally accepted in the Pre-Trib crowd as such. It is, however, it is a segue from the Church to the Tribulation, where we see, among other wonderful things, the 24 Elders around the Throne of God. Who are the 24 Elders, and what or who do they represent?
In Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior ~
Eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building, and getting married are NOT sins. I don't believe Jesus was teaching a parable, or was talking about sin, or speaking only to Jews. I believe Jesus was saying life will be good.
At the end of the tribulation, life is NOT good. I see famine (Rev 6:8, Matt 24:7), not eating. I see drought (Rev 11:6) and bitter water (Rev 8:11) rather than drinking. I see hyperinflation (Rev 6:6) rather than buying and selling. I see earthquakes (Matt 24:7), huge meteorites striking the earth (Rev 8:8-10), excessive heat (Rev 16:19), no sunlight (Rev 8:12) and violent storms (Rev 11:15, Luke 21:25) rather than planting and building. I see love growing cold rather than marriage (Matt 24:12). At the end of the tribulation, the whole world is affected (Rev 3:10) and everybody is hiding in a cave (Rev 6:15-17) and freaking out (Luke 21:26).
One taken, one left is a pre-trib event without a resurrection (dead bodies - Luke 17:37, Matt 24:28). 1 Thes 4 is a post-trib event with a resurrection. There is only one resurrection (John 6:39-54, 11:24, Rev 20:4-6). Maranatha!
OneTakenDotNet, you’re correct that Jesus’ description of the days of Noah are totally different from what Revelation says the end of the great tribulation and Wrath of God will be like. Jesus also described one taken and one left from a bed and workplace, which post-tribs claim is the gathering of tares, but that would mean saints are sleeping and working with the wicked people who took the mark and kill saints, which also makes no sense.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 Good point!
@@rick_h, yeah, I don't recall anyone explaining how the saints are sleeping with Satan's wicked seed, and even right up to their gathering at Armageddon. It obviously makes no sense.
The Rapture has to take place in order for the saints to be judged and given their crowns. After that, the 2nd Coming
Yep!
You mean 3rd coming
@@kevindavis4709 ...the rapture is not a second coming, so the first post is correct.
Noah was taken out of danger, he was delivered (saved) from the flood. Sinners were swept away, they were left behind to die. Jude1:14,15...Jesus returning with His saints(raptured believers) to earth to execute judgement.
"no rapture...." TRUTH.
It's the truth that anybody who says there is no rapture won't go in the rapture because Jesus instructed us to believe, repent, watch and pray always to be found worthy to escape.
If you'll prayfully study these three scriptures, with the presence of our Holy Spirit, you'll understand more-better.
Pre-tribulation rapture rescue is a pulpit doctrine. Woe unto ye pastors.....
Daniel 12: 1,2,3
Psalms 110:1
II THESSALONIANS 2: 1 THROUGH 3
"Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. (NAU) Mat 24.40-41; I realize that Asbury, for the most part doesn't believe in the Rapture or the end times scenarios that are out there. Revelation becomes a metaphor, yet all the specific prophecies in the Old Testament are seen as actual insight into future events, why not Daniel and Revelation? Israel thought the thinking processes of the body where found in the kidneys, yet later we found that it is the brain. So we not believe the brain isn't the place of thinking, just because the knowledge of this didn't come to us later in time? Why so extreme in this area? It may not be exactly how the end times persons see it, but there is something, after all Enoch and Elijah were both raptured, that was well before the 1800's.
NT Wright denies penal substitution which is the heart of the gospel. A man that does not understand the core component of how we are saved should not be followed.
Your presentation uses no support from the Biblical text to support your view. It seems that your argument is based on your implicit rejection and feelings about the teaching of rapture. It is more convincing if we always use the Bible as the authority to determine the correctness or incorrectness of any doctrine.
marketing gphotons : The Bible is indeed the correct place to go! Feel free to go ahead and pick any verse or passage pertaining to what people think of as "the rapture" and you will find quickly that every single instance without exception all has surrounding context and embedded phrases which directly tie in to the time immediately after the Tribulation has completely concluded! There is no exception whatsoever! Sadly, there is many fools who do not know what is actually written and base all they know upon what they were falsely told non-Biblical in the many churches and synagogues out there instead of actually truly reading what is written. To help fix the false narrative, many are trained to use synonymously terms which are in reality the furthest opposite that the Bible itself goes to great lengths to define openly and directly and yet sadly many people who do not know what it is that they do not know, walking in ignorance and deception! In the case of the "pre-tribulation" or "during the Tribulation" rapture, both of these ideas are absolutely non-Biblical and in the case of the former is so very dangerous as part of the "Great Deception", it comes with some very serious curses upon all who have made the fatal mistake of falling to that deception which is even more the deadly to those who further make the mistake of teaching any others of the matter that they too should fall to the same deception --- for these, not only the prior curses spoken but also the total and complete removal of their names from the "Book of Life" as well in consequence and for the protection of God's actual elect. Be very careful and remember always that you are not alone as Hebrews 13:2 and Amos 3:7 imparts important wisdom, so also a little piece of wisdom for all to read and realize further John 21:18-24, Revelation 1:9, Revelation 10:5-11, and Revelation 11:3 ;-)
@@enigmagroup413 what about Revelation 3:10? I will also keep you from the hour of trial which will come upon the whole world. The whole world, the whole world,from not in.
@@markking2054 Keep reading " Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, WHICH COMETH DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN FROM MY GOD: AND i WILL WRITE UPON HIM MY NEW NAME. Rev.19:12... Wherefore we look for a new heaven and a new earth.
He kept Noah safe because Noah obeyed his voice and did as he commanded. He kept Israel safe by a cloud in the day and fire by night. He keeps those that are his safe as a hen gathers her chicks and tucks them under her wing.
see also Rev.18:3-9 & Luke 21;21-33,1 Cor.15:52 &Rev.20:4-10
@@ginj5375 exactly to the Church and keep reading chapter 4:1 after these things, after what things? Come up here, the church age is over ch 4 is the rapture 1Cor15: 51 52 1 Thessalonians 4:17. And this precedes the great Trib Daniel's 70th week.
@@ginj5375 you are getting your trumpets wrong Revelation ch 8 thru ch 11, 7 trumpets are the Angel's sounding the Trumpets of judgment. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is the Trumpet of God and the dead in Christ will rise first to meet the lord in the air. What's God gonna do meet us in the air, and take us to the Marriage feast, then slam us back to join him in his Judgement in the whole earth, in one hour? The celebration lasts a (Daniels)week. 1 Thessalonians 4:18 says to comfort one another, hey friends were either take the mark or we get beheaded. How is that comforting? Unless you are the 144,000 you are not gonna make it thru the hour of the Tribulation on the whole world without losing your head first.
Cloud of witnesses.
Hebrews 12:1 KJV - Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
The rapture is a very young idea. The early church fathers did not teach on the rapture. Pre Tribulation rapture is not true
why do you say the pre trib rapture isn't true? the church is clearly in heaven before Daniels 70th week begins.
Revelation 4, Revelation 5 9 11, Revelation 19 7 9 clearly shows the church is in heaven before the second coming.
revelation 3 10 Jesus himself tells the church of Philadelphia that he will KEEP THEM FROM THE HOUR OF TESTING . he didn't says keep you through the hour of testing.
Jesus taught the rapture in Mathew 24
@@kennethaigbinode7698 I agree with you, but I slightly disagree with you also.
It's true that the spirits will be with the LORD, however their bodies will be caught up in the air along with those who are alive.
The spirits that are with G-D won't stay in a spiritual body forever, their new bodies will be given back to them.
Absolutely correct, the idea came from someone called Margret or something like that McDonald I think it was, in 1830 around there, and she got a vision and there was two Preachers that were there that took the idea and ran with it, you're absolutely right it's very new and very Western
Here's the actual manuscripts of when she 1st saw this satanic vision
www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/1975_macpherson_incredible-coverup.html
@@krackmusik97224 uumm, those ARE their spiritual bodies, they put on incorruption, that's the spiritual bodies, but then you must put on immortality
1st corin 15:50
Now I say this, brothers, *that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom* neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, *but we will all be changed*
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, *at the last trumpet* (That's the 7th and last) For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “Death, where is your sting? Hades, where is your victory?”
All the Christians I know seem to have more faith, hope, excitement, and are looking forward to a rapture, more so than the return of Christ... They have more hope for being snatched away from this earth before the tribulation, than simply living life (even through the tribulation) with Christ. It sounds to me like yes, we will be supernaturally changed and meet our King in the air, but that won't be "the rapture," that's simply the RETURN of CHRIST. And we are the greeting committee. And after we greet Him, we go immediately back to earth, not to heaven.. This rapture deception seems like something the devil would like. Because during unimaginably hard times, many Christians hearts will grow bitter towards God, because they wrongfully EXPECTED to be spared true hardship.
GOD always keep what HE said. HE told Abraham that HE won't destroy a City with at least 10 righteous people in it. The great tribulation will be great calamities unmatched from the beginning. There are many Christians all over the world rapture is the only way the great tribulation could take place.
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." Matthew 24:21,22
keep studying...
He definitely does. He said dispensationalism believes Matthew 24 is the rapture bit we don't believe that. So he's just saying stuff he doesn't even knowm
Well "keep studying" is sound advice regardless but a little expansion would have been nice.
....keep studying and hopefully he will come to truth.
Thank you for explaining this truth. Lord Jesus said that those who will endure till the end will be saved. Secret rapture is not biblical. Praise God that many are getting to know the true doctrine so that they will pray and find strength from the Lord to endure till the end. God is faithful and He will see us through in these last days.
The SAVE is the correction of our thoughts, as we all got alianated in the fall of Adam. We forgot the Rock we were hewn.
Jesus has come to save our souls, His Bride. Matt 18:11
Jesus said 'you will know the truth and the truth will set you free'. Once we experienced the born from above (a higher realm), we need to constantly renew our minds to the truth of the New Cov, starting with Acts 2 the outporing of the Holy Spirit. (Jesus was born under the law, still OT). Blessings!
@roshnipillay305 - You wrote, "Secret rapture is not biblical." CORRECT!!! perhaps you can also clarify a few questions:
What was Christ's mission from God?
Was Christ's life and final work on the cross incomplete, resulting in His Bride undergoing punishment during the tribulation before the marriage feast?
What is wrath?
What is God's response to those who reject His Son?
What is God's response to lawlessness?
Is God's wrath truly reserved for Christ's Bride?
How does the end-time events of Daniel 9:24-27 impact Israel? The Bride of Christ? The World?
But it DOES teach a Rapture and Resurrection at the final Return of Christ.
We will be caught up in the clouds to be with Jesus as He returns to establish His kingdom.
Matt 24 and 1 Cor 15 also fit with this. 2 Thes 1 and 2 also discuss this.
Jesus returns and we will be gathered to meet Him.
Grace And Peace, SW. Will have to Respectfully Disagree - Way TOO Many "problems"
{found EIGHTEEN [18!] so far...}, with post-trib, so, *For God's Honor And Glory,* may
we "discuss" this "following" study, And Please, Be *Very RICHLY Blessed!:*
--------------------------------------------------
*Pre-TOJT Great GRACE Departure!* "Outline!":
*"Do ALL things Decently And In ORDER!!" (1 Corinthians 14 : 40 KJB!)*
*(1) PEACE With God! "Receiving" The Holy Spirit For "understanding"?*
*(2a) Which BIBLE: KJB* or Any "newer modern version" will suffice?
*(2b) KJB And God's Excellent "study" Rules?*
*(3a) Rightly Divided - "Brief" Intro*
*(3b) THREE "Ages" Rightly Divided = God's TIMELINES?*
*(4) Which "Gospel" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?*
*(5) GREAT Tribulation or tribulations/GREAT GRACE Departure?*
*(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure "Expectations?"*
*(7) God's HEAVENLY UPlook For HIS Body?*
*(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for WHOM or "signs"?*
*(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out?"*
*(10) "Day Of CHRIST?" Rightly Divided from {RDf}: "The Day Of The LORD"?*
*(11) CONFIDENCE in death/resurrection, OR, in living/glorification?*
*(12) CHRIST Will RETURN **_"Without Warning"?_*
*(13)The TWO "Trumps" Of God, In HIS "Age Of GRACE"?*
*(14) Meeting HIM "In The Air"? to Heaven?* vs U-turn (theology?)
_Back To earth?_
*(15) Preparation For Judgment?*
*(16) Post Departure "Deception Question"?*
Conclusion!:
*(17) **_Distinctions_** Between The "Mystery" Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure {RDf}*
*The "Prophesied" Second Coming!*
*{RDf = "Rightly Divided from" (2 Timothy 2 : 15 KJB!)}*
And, please Do Let me "know" IF you "wish" to have *Scriptural* "expansion"
of ANY other of the above () segments...
continued in *Part 17 "Conclusion"... God Bless!*
GRACE ambassador judging from your dissertation(!), I don’t think my understanding and truly “rightly dividing” all the scriptures dealing with the Return & Rapture will be able to break through.
GRADE ambassador : By your own words, you have much to learn. Sketchpad Warrior is actually indeed correct. Likewise, there is also NO PROBLEMS with a "post-Tribulation" rapture whatsoever! The only actual real problem is your own unfortunate complete and total ignorance of what is going on concerning all manners related to prophesy and with that the many layers of deception which you have unfortunately also fallen victim where it is very sad but true that you have absolutely no understanding of prophesy whatsoever (more on that much further below). Going beyond just the simply the issue of the rapture which itself is not when you think, for the purpose you think, nor does it go to the destination that you think, not even for the duration that you think either; it is among all these and many other reasons that you think there is problems where in fact there is no "problems" whatsoever and in fact aside from the Bible declaring exclusively openly and directly that the rapture is AFTER THE TRIBULATON in exhaustive detail, there is no passages found anywhere in the Bible that in any way references nor supports either a "Pre-Tribulation" or "Mid-Tribulation" rapture and quite sadly for everyone who has ever attempted to attach a scripture reference, these only humorously show always their own immense ignorance and foolishness because every single passage without exception related to this particular topic is purposefully date stamped denoted by the words and phrases chosen and surrounding context direct declarations often ignored that all the passages are indeed AFTER THE TRIBULATON --- most mortal humans typically cannot find more than 27, I can tell you 83 such passages and again all of them actually denote the time within every single one of of them without a single exception, something you clearly didn't realize as well as the fact that you are under a heavy curse keeping you apart from God and left unfortunately unsaved because of your fall into deception and for the protection of God's actual elect. It is these factors that left you quite surprised and you would have been left behind and it not been for you not making it through the next few years but all the same still ended up standing on the wrong side in the end against God which is a matter that even though has already come to pass as has all of prophesy beginning to end in what is still from your own perspective future, here in the past you have the chance to change the outcome and re-learn all you don't actually know with God's help and much prayer with a willingness to trust in him completely and lay aside the fear of relearning again all you thought you knew, there is a chance that future history already done could indeed still yet change for you. Realize that you are not alone and in wisdom understand both Hebrews 13:2 and Amos 3:7 knowing God is in control of all situations in ways you would have not thought possible even though I just now gave this to you directly from the Bible; So likewise realize also what you have further missed in John 21:18-24, Revelation 1:9, Revelation 10:5-11, and Revelation 11:1-3 …. So also Daniel 12 should be mentioned also.
READ THE BIBLE!
1THESSALONIANS 4:17
DO NOT ANYONE DECIEVE YOU!
WE ARE THE REAL TRANSFORMERS IN CHRIST!!!
There is rapture in the bible, but there is no secret rapture before the great tribulation, cause the first resurrection is after the great tribulation, simple
" Come out from amongst them least you suffer the wrath of God. He has promised the good virgins rescue .
Has anyone heard of the word harpazo? It means a catching away, used in 1 Thessalonians. (Rapture)
Hashem Ministry : 1 Thessalonians is referring directly to an event AFTER THE TRIBULATION IS OVER by it's exact chosen wording and surrounding immediate context! For anyone to ignorantly and foolishly try to use any passage taken out of either 1st or 2nd Thessalonians in any kind of attempt to support or justify any misguided pre-Tribulation" or "mid-Tribulation" rapture idea which is not only non-Biblical but also shows immense lack of wisdom on the part of the fool trying to make the point not realizing they are are actually pointing out the opposite! This also shows to all an immense and profound ignorance of the Bible making clear that the one making the statement has absolutely no idea what is indeed actually written! Who then is the greater fool, he who says openly unto others "what he does not know" or "he who listens to the fool who does not know what he is talking about"? Hashem Ministry, you just effectively ripped apart your own attempted point as the passage you described from 1 Thessalonians is heavily marked with phrases and keywords explicitly and directly connecting this passage to what you would know of a and probably describe as "The Second Coming" which is incidentally an event that occurs 3 1/2 days after the final official end of the Tribulation that is also known as "The Great and Terrible Day" also spoken of in Matthew 24:29-31which is itself the actual and only real "rapture" type of event! Incidentally, of all the many verses and passages that are written, there is not a single instance anywhere found throughout the entire Bible that supports a "pre-tribulation" rapture. For there is no verses anywhere that does not explicitly declare the time of that same passage and in the case of every single verse ever used to describe "the rapture", all of those without any exception denote a time for the passage as being AFTER THE TRIBULATION is over! Everything written in both 1st and 2nd Thessalonians is very excellent examples of this issue because those verses explicitly reference themselves as also all being AFTER THE TRIBULATON yet there are many who in ignorance unaware and not knowing what is actually written who try to mistakenly apply those in a non-Biblical manner against what is written just as you effectively just tried to do yourself illustrating how much you really don't know and likewise just how very much you need to take the time to learn for what you know is like that of a young child who does not realize that of all that they think they know, in reality they know nothing whatsoever!
@@enigmagroup413 Early Church Fathers were pretribulation believers.
@@1969cmp Yes,true
@@philarevolutionarywarriorp8295 ....correction. They discussed whether or not it was pre or mid but they certainly believe in the rapture either pre or mid, definitely not post-trib (what a waste of time that would be. Amillennism was thought of as 'immature'.
*harpazo* (x12)
Mt 13^19 harpazei = seizes
Jn 6^15 harpazein = seize
Jn 10^12 harpazei = seizes
Jn 10^28 harpasei = shall seize
Jn 10^29 harpazein = to seize
Ac 8^39 harpasen = seized
Ac 23^10 harpasai = to seize
2-Cor 12^2 harpagenta = caught (to)
2-Cor 12^4 harpagė = caught (into)
*1-Thess 4^17* harpagėsometha
= shall be siezed
Jude 1^23 harpazontes = seizing
Rev 12^5 harpasthė = was seized
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53
there is rapture in the Bible...when it happens that is a different question.....these guys are so ignorant of the Scripture...
In a true look at the seedbed movement, I see that the formation was established in 2012. Also, it is led by the Methodist Church. That brings no judgement from my seeking truth. But what I did learn was more than valuable. A truth was provided by God The Holy Spirit to me. This video truly comes by a subtraction willfully chosen, and self willed by men. Just because part of the New Testament brings fear to anyone, does not give anyone the right to subtract from the Gospels According To Jesus Christ. Lastly, this Gospel is not driven by a Hollywood movie, which was in my strong opinion. The one reason these comments were made. The Word of God does not affiliate itself with worldly
Teachers, and it never will. This is very sad. Christ does not mumble, nor does Paul, as He Writes this According To Jesus Christ!
Poor theology.
The rapture is true but the examples in the video shows a lack of knowledge.
I am TOR.
Peter Chee : Depends really on what exactly you mean when you use the word "rapture"?
All you have displayed in your comment is boastful pride. Get the leaven out of yourself! Rapture is a cowards hope, read 2Thes. 1:1-6 think about the parable of the wheat and tares.
the dead in Christ shall be first than together we shall be caught up in the clouds, seems like some sort of rapture , but when ?
This guy has everything backwards.
Noah and his family were taken up to Safety while those who were LEFT BEHIND drowned in the flood.
I believe that you are the one who got it wrong. After the flood who was left behind (Noah and his family) and who was taken away?
@@halfulford3081 It really doesn't matter what you believe or what this guy says.
What matters is what the Bible teaches.
This guy builds a straw man argument then he tears down his own straw man.
Beware of false teachers like this guy.
@@pastorart1974 Why would Noah build an Ark if he wasn’t on earth to survive the flood?
Nowhere in the Bible does it talk about 2 comings after the resurrection?
Well, what does Jesus mean when he said no one knows the day or the hour?
Then, if Thes and Cor talk about Christ coming down on the mount of olives, or the rapture happening then, well, his saying of no one knows the day or the hour falls apart.
From the time the AC makes his covenant with many FOR A WEEK, one would just have to add 2520 days,, or much simpler, 1260 days or 42 months from the time of the abomination that makes desolate would profane the temple, to know to the exact day the time of Christ's return. A simple calculator would be needed.
So, if the coming of Christ to Jerusalem will be extremely easy to figure, Jesus must have talked about another gathering, another coming, namely the rapture
The Biblical positional timing of the rapture is: post-trib-pre-great-trib-pre-wrath, which comes after the Latter Rain (2nd outpouring of His Spirit) begins to fall in the latter days. The latter days is a 7-year period commonly referred to as Daniel's 70th Week, which is set to begin at sunset of Oct. 2, 2024 Elul 29, which begins Oct. 3 Tishri 1, thus the latter days spans from Oct. 3, 2024 Tishri 1 - Sept. 17, 2031 Elul 29. Within this period of time a myriad of things shall occur: the Latter Rain, that tribulation that comes upon those that come out of the apostate church to receive the gospel, then great tribulation that comes upon those that come out of the secular world to repentance to receive the gospel, and then comes His wrath, which is reserved for the ungodly and the disobedient children. Prior to His wrath Ezekiel's War shall occur, and then the remnant Jews shall come to confess and repent and are saved, and then comes His wrath. The Rapture event comes after that tribulation that comes upon those that come out of the apostate church. These are the dead in Christ. After the dead in Christ rise and stand on their feet then we that are alive and remain (His faithful that have, do, and teach the truth, which are few in number, and are kept from and through that tribulation) shall be caught up together with them (the dead in Christ now risen) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord (1 Thess. 4:16-17).
God is: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Godhead, and these Three are one.
Guess we'll have to wait and see if Matthew 24;14 turns out to be 'as a witness' or 'for a witness'.
Revelation says that every eye will see Jesus when he comes, even those who pierced him. Nobody is going anywhere or doing anything until Jesus comes on the scene.
So who are the redeemed in Heaven watching the lamb open the seals in Revelation 5?
@@risenyeshua7935 They are exactly who scripture says they are the redeemed who have died and gone to heaven.
@@smokeandmirrors6167 where's it say they died?
@@risenyeshua7935 where does it say they didn't, are you in heaven right now? No because you're still alive.
@@smokeandmirrors6167 what you're missing is that Jesus comes for His bride before the tribulation begins. See, Jesus made a promise before He left, John 14:1-3. This is where believers meet Him in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. This is the same thing He told us Matthew 25:1-13. When He returns to earth He comes WITH His saints, that at the end of Revelation also Zechariah 14. When He comes for His bride no one will see that.
DANIEL 12:1 TELLS US EXACTLY WHEN WE WILL BE DELIVERED.
Great I hope historical premillennum and amillennum people start exposing the false dispensation people
I'm a Mormon I do not believe in any sort of rapture I believe we will all have to go through a tribulation period to test our faithfulness
get out
@Brett...well mormonism is the wrong path (along with many) but I am not a believer in pre tribulation
rapture. I believe the born again saints will have to go through the tribulation. The Lord may show me
otherwise but I pray regularly I will not be deceived. Pre tribulation rapture believers are extremely
aggressive I have found.
If you're a mormon you got enough problems already without worrying about the rapture
Are you reading the same Bible I am? Unless you're blind, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, and I Thessalonians 4:16-17, are definitely covering that topic. Philippians 3:21, Paul is looking for the return of Christ, when he will transform our(believers), lowly bodies to be like his glorious body. II Thessalonians 2: 1-8, Paul is speaking about the gathering together, which will happen before the lawless one(the Antichrist), appears at the outset of the Tribulation period. Identifying the same event as the rapture, just using different terminology.
Was Revelation written for 1st century Christians?
Question. How will God save the Church, Christians all over the world, from
His full Wrath? God always saves and protect (Lot, Noah, Moses) His People from His Wrath. The mystery of the dead being raised and the living being caught up in the clouds with the Lord.
Why would God pour out His full Wrath on His people? God told Moses how to protect and save His people from His Wrath, and He also told Lot and Noah. I believe God has also told Apostle John how God will protect and save His people from His Full Wrath. I believe there is a Huge misunderstanding or confusion.
I have always wondered why the Rapture was never mentioned by any of the Protestant Reformation - reformers. That teaching did not appear until the 19th century.
Charles Heller, except for a few clear sentences from Paul, the rapture is a mystery of God that remains hidden in various scriptures, so it’s not just lying around on the surface for everyone to see. Then the doctrine was suppressed by the Catholic church for over a thousand years, and if they didn’t want anyone to preach about something, it just didn’t get preached. Power in Reformation churches was also centralized, and doctrines were just as tightly controlled, so if they didn’t want you teaching or printing something, you didn’t.
And end time prophesies tell about how God will rescue a remnant from corrupt political and religious leaders and then destroy them, so it’s not hard to imagine why leaders would want to suppress such ideas.
Cracks started to appear in the centralized control of religion when the New World opened up, and more English versions of the Bible were printed, as well as commentaries that didn’t have to be approved by the King and his minions. In fact, if you overlay the times and places where there was a drought in Rapture knowledge in history with the domains of these powerful churches that didn’t (and still don’t) condone the Rapture or even much of Eschatology, you will find a high correlation. The Rapture is not a modern, Western, English-speaking church thing. The Rapture was first revealed in ancient Eastern churches and only resurfaced when religious liberty flourished again, which just happened to be in the modern, Western, English-speaking churches.
@@biblehistoryscience3530 Can you please share the specific scripture that tells us the rapture is a mystery? Thanks...
@@Truth537, to be clear, the Rapture is the Lord’s catching-away of saints to heaven that begins when the Father says it’s time and ends with the church in heaven. The complete set of Rapture details are scattered across the Bible, but everything spoken/written before Paul had to be communicated using veiled language, otherwise there would have been no mystery left for Paul to reveal.
So to answer your question, Paul said he was going to reveal a mystery in 1 Cor 15 before teaching certain Rapture details.
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
1 Cor 15:51-52
@@biblehistoryscience3530 Thanks for your response. I can appreciate what you are trying to affirm. However, the scripture you shared 'Behold, I shew you a mystery....' has nothing to do with the 'mystery' of the pre-trib rapture. Paul tells the believer exactly what the mystery is. He 'shewed' it to them.
Read Corinthians 15 and you will quickly see that Paul is dealing with the rejection of the resurrection that some in the church seem to have. Paul goes into detail about how something must die before it can be raised (using the grain of wheat example) and that the new body we receive is a glorious one, unlike the perishable one we have now.
After explaining the reality of the resurrection from the dead, he continues in then explaining the singular exception to death in order to receive our new glorified bodies.. He says, 'behold I tell you a mystery, 'WE SHALL NOT ALL DIE'. The mystery is that there will be a generation of living believers who will never taste death. That is the mystery that he plainly tells/shews us.
Remember that the context is the teaching of the resurrection and that the mystery is plainly explained to readers, 'We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed when the Lord returns. We who are alive and remain at the Lords coming (Parousia).
In order to come up with pre-trib doctrine from this verse, you have to read it into the text because it is never explicitly taught anywhere in scripture unfortunately. The mystery is plainly explained in this verse.
If you have another verse that tells us the mystery is explicitly the teaching of the pre-trib rapture, please do share it.
Thanks
@@Truth537, Paul refuted false teachers about the resurrection aspect of the Rapture doctrine in 1 Cor 15, affirming that it’s real then included a closely related detail of the doctrine which he referred to as a mystery.
But if you don’t believe that the Rapture is the Lord’s catching-away of saints to heaven that begins when the Father says it’s time and ends with the church in heaven, then you can compartmentalize the various details and never see the forest thru the trees.
I have never believed in this false flag about rapture. You are absolutely spot on brother in Christ Jesus. Because the word of God also says. There will be false teachers 1Timothy 1: 3:7.