If you had a 20 inch snow shovel and 10 folks watching... 3 people would say it is to small... 3 people would say it is to big... 3 people would suggest a broom... 1 would believe you had made the best choice!🤠
Your blower is working as designed. There’s lots of people who have very little operating experience that seem to think a matched attachment means they can power through anything without any loss in speed/power. I read in a manual for a tractor years ago that the mark on your tachometer for pto speed is actually just above your peak torque range. That way when you place a load on your tractor and it lugs down, it actually comes into peak torque and although it sounds like you’re experiencing big drops in power and speed the tractor is actually hitting its stride. That hydrostatic whine also makes it sound like it’s really laboring vs a gear drive. It’s all about knowing limitations. My dad always says “there’s drivers and there’s operators. Which one are you?” Kind of goes along with his other favorite. “There’s operators with 25 year’s experience and ones with 1 year experience 25 times”. Hope this helps
Agreed. For all diesel engines, the torque curve is a somewhat bell shaped, with peak rpm, then rated, then peak torque, then it starts dropping off torque. People have this fallacy that since the engine is losing rpm, it's losing power, which isn't the case until you exceed the peak torque, then yes, it loses power and rpm
Never in a hurry when you're in a heated cab! slow and steady my friend ! should be getting my grand L 3560 with mid pto kit and 64" front blower mid april (scheduled to arrive april 4th) Cant wait
I run a 74 " snowblower on my Kubota Grand L 3560. I few years ago I ran a 7 foot on it as well. Great thing to have a hydrostatic transmission and the "Stall Guard " feature on this tractor as it automatically adjusts speed to power accordingly !
I seem to remember from previous episodes that Guys tractor has a larger engine and higher torque that yours. It also looks like he has a small blower. A larger tractor to blower ratio will push snow like Guys. The problem with his setup is that unless he has a heavy built snow blower with heavy gear/chains/etc (which it looks like he has along with that very nice tilt articulation) could pack wet snow into the auger so hard that is could break the sheer pin. Typically I find when people say "you need a bigger tractor for ___" it really means "I have not spent enough time and effort to learn the capabilities of my equipment so I need a larger tractor to compensate..." Great video Gord. Have a great week.
Most snowblowers are designed to have the impeller spin at around 1250 RPM, this is also true for walk behind snowblower. So, to have a snowblower properly matched to your tractor, it should have a gearbox or gear chain ratio geared up or down to spin the impeller at that speed. If a snowblower uses a rear PTO that spin at say 540 RPM, then it should be geared up so the impeller spins at around 1250 RPM. Mid PTO usually spin faster than 1250 RPM so the snowblower gear ratio should be geared down to spin the impeller at around 1250 RM. Usually larger tractors have lower mid PTO RPMs because the engine is more powerful and can use geared up attachments gearbox when required. I have a small 18HP garden tractor, John Deere 322 with a front PTO that spin at 3425 RPM. The gearbox on the snowblower is geared down almost 3:1 giving it a lot of torque and the engine will almost never bog down, even hitting a 3 feet snowdrift. Now, it you take a 23 HP sub-compact John Deere 1025R with the same size snowblower, it will bog down the engine or even stall the engine if you go in the same 3 feet snowdrift too fast. The mid PTO on the 1025R is 2100 RPM, so the snowblower matched to it will have a gear down at around only 1.7:1. What makes a particular snowblower throw snow further than an other, is not the impeller speed, but the tip velocity (ft/min), a larger impeller (fan) will have a larger tip velocity than a smaller impeller. Also the spacing tolerance of the impeller tips versus the impeller housing will determine how well it will able to eject wet snow. Did I confused anyone? LOL Cheers 🌨🌨🌨🌨🌨🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜
Morning Gord! I was concerned that my B2601 was too small for the Woodland Mills WC68 wood chipper. But WM just recommended limiting the diameter of the limbs I feed into it. So although the chipper is technically capable of receiving up to 6 inches, I limit it to 3 inches and it works great. So your strategy to just slow down makes sense 👍😄
@@GPOutdoors Great video and discussion. Using the chipper as an example what is the symptom for potentially damaging the tractor if you feed in a thicker limb? Do you just run slower or can you break something?
@@wkimzey As long as you use shear pins, they are there and designed just for that. Breaking before doing any damage to the rest of the tractor. When you bog it down, you're just slowing the engine and dumping fuel for nothing.
I think that's all there is to it. Just because my Toyota Corolla can hit 120 mph, doesn't mean it should do that in any sort of sustained fashion, if I want it to last. And just because it'll get 45 mpg doesn't mean it will do it while going 90 mph. If you want maximum performance and efficiency, it's up to the operator to scale their use to match. Seems like GP is doing just that.
Hi Gordon, I am a new subscriber to your channel. I love the snow removal videos. I ordered a new Kubota L6060HST with a front blower and as much as I am looking forward to spring, I will be anxious to try it out next winter. I don't have the new tractor yet but will be getting it in the next few weeks. Can't wait. I ordered the snowblower, Land Planner, box blade and an offset back blade with mine. I already have a grapple and rake from my old tractor so I will have fun playing this summer. Take care and keep making the videos...they're great!
Good morning Gord, you're doing a great job with how you manage your equipment and not overloading it's capacity. Slowing down and letting it chew and spit out easier is the way to go and you enjoy what and the way you handle things. Working by the hour sure beats flag time and saves on damaged equipment and shoddy work. Keep up the good videos and the fun you show too. Fred.
GP, I have a Massey Ferguson GC1710 that is about 19hp at the rear PTO and I have a 60 inch farmking blower and I can overload it and almost stall it out if I go into a really deep bank. If i plow less than 12-14 inches, it will handle it fine. I have been plowing with blowers for over 30 years and with up to 110hp tractors, and it is exactly as you said. You load too much snow and the blower can't process it fast enough, you will overload it, and the RPM will slow down until you clear out the amount of snow. Great setup you have, and your blower is perfect for that tractor! Cheers
I had an LX2610 ROPS model with the residential LX2963 front mount snowblower. I thought it worked great, having nothing else to compare it to. I did have to work the pedal based on engine sound and RPMS but it sure beat my walk behind. After a few times on that ROPS model I decided that the Upper Pennisula of Michigan winters were just too harsh and I needed a cab. I traded in my ROPS LX2610 and my dealer said "If you're going to upgrade, upgrade." and he talked me into an LX3310. I can not get over the difference that the extra HP makes. There is almost no need to keep working the pedal and I can go must faster. I actually talked to the dealer and told him that I thought the 2610 was a little under powered for that blower based on my new experience. He assured me that the blower was matched to both of the LX models and that the 2610 was actually the more popular model. I Love the channel. Keep doing what you're doing! Have a great weekend.
I’m in the UP as well and on the cusp of a decision. I’m a little concerned about the added complexity of the turbo and regeneration. Do you have any regrets with the 3310 paired with the 2980? I’m also considering the Mahindra 1635 paired with a BERSB66 blower. Seems you get more tractor from Mahindra but I’m not yet sure about the Mahindra service which is out of a Harley dealership. The Kubota dealership seems more at the varsity level for service but I reach that conclusion only from the fact that Mahindra tractors are a side-gig to the Harley Davidson bikes.
@@kevincarlisle2027 Did you purchase the lx3310? I’m looking at one with a b2970 blower which is 54” wide with the wing/drift cutter extension kit. Wondering if that blower width will be undersized? I know the 63” is more common.
Thanks for the informative comment. I’ve been trying to get talked into going from my old 30hp to the 26hp to avoid the regen. system. Speculating the reduced size/power will definitely be noticeable under snow blowing use.
Another consideration in the selection and use of equipment is the quality of the snow: regional differences reflecting the range from light dry to wet saturated snow, crusted, old/new fallen, snow banks courtesy of road plows, snow depths, etc. Regardless, the operator is key to effective use; anyone who has used a walk-behind blower quickly recognizes that some finesse is part of the equation.
For comparison, we have a 60” WoodMaxx blower on the rear of our LX2610 (ROPS model). It takes quite a bit to slow it down, even in heavy snow. It’s possible to slow the engine RPMs a little bit, but it’ll chew through just about anything. I ground up a driveway marker this winter. It spat out fiberglass shards. Haven’t yet had it break a shear bolt. It’d be interesting for you to try a rear blower an front and compare. I doubt you’d want to use a rear blower to clear your driveway, though. Ours is long enough at 500 feet or so. Driving backward is fine for short distances, but a literal pain in the neck for longer stretches.
I run a rear mounted PTO snowblower on a Bobcat CT 5558 which is a 58 hp Tractor. Since it’s rear mounted, I typically wind row the snow, then make one pass with the snowblower. It will definitely bog down if I push it hard. Because the snow was plowed, it is very dense.
Great video and awesome explanations. Regarding having to slow down when there is a bit too much snow coming in for the blower, that is true for ALL snowblowers -- even push ones like mine.
I have to say Gord, your tractor and blower are working perfectly. The dealers know what works and what's to big or to small. All the R&D has been sorted long before the dealers get the products and RESPECTFULL Dealer won't sell you a 10 foot blower for a 20HP tractor and vice versa. I build farm equipment for one of the top brands and I can tell you this...what we put a machine through when it goes for testing, would take a Farmer 15 years years of normal use to break stuff if they use it as designed. Now that doesn't mean stuff can't break under normal wear and tear, but all the pieces have been tested to work together and create a great product that should last a long time. Your tractor probably has had 3 different blowers on it to determine which one fits the HP range and torque and clear the wheels and so on. I'd say you have a winner with this setup.
You are exactly right. I have a L4060 with front blower operating from the mid PTO and engine rpm drops if you load it too much. I just back off a little on the speed and let it work. A buddy down the road had a L6060 with rear blower and I saw him pushing the snow in front of the blower as you described without it bogging down.
Good morning GP. I used your complete setup for my purchase two years ago. It works perfectly for me! Thanks. 👍 ooops. All my plowable areas are level, didn’t need the chains.
Interesting conversation about to happen here, I look at it as 2 things, 1 - your retired, 2 - its not a race. Bigger machine equals bigger costs, to save 10 or 15 minutes, they don't put racing stripes on a tractor for a reason. Let hope the weather for the weekend is not what their calling for, I'll take the snow but not the rain. Cheers and have a great weekend. Pete
When I got the same tractor and blower that you have, I expected it to move snow faster than it does. I felt like it was underpowered for the size of blower. Now that I have about 30 hours on it, I’ve become very content with it, and don’t think I would change a thing. If I really want to blast through snow, I would have gotten a skidsteer with a blower. But this tractor will work great for my property. It works far better than the 42” craftsman riding mower blower that I was using previously. Thanks for addressing this! I appreciate your honesty!
Howdy your videos are great. Question with a front or rear blower on a gravel driveway do you find that you break the machine a lot? Or does the machine just push the gravel right through? Thanks for any info
Thanks kindly. Great question - no, not once . The gravel will fly through it but if you catch a sizeable stone or rock, it can get stuck and will break the Shear Pin. Quick chnge to a new shear pin and all good. So whatever models you may be considering, ask them to show you where the shear pins are located and how many there are. This model here has 3 shear pins to protect the unit. Shear pins are like a bolt with a shank and nut - about 40cents each. Cheers!
Good questions here, Gord, and there have been some good responses already. I’ll weigh in here, and some of what I will say is somewhat speculative because I don’t know the full design of your and Guy’s tractors (though I’ll state my assumptions), but I do know a little something about engineering. The key thing to know is that Power - which is the measure that matters for throwing snow - is the product of torque times speed. Now here’s my assumption: regardless of the fact that your mid PTO turns faster than the rear PTO, both should produce the same power, give or take. It’s possible the mid PTO may be a couple percent less because of the higher gear losses, but it wouldn’t be significant. Mid-PTO’s are designed to run mowers, which require high rpm, and having the higher speed at the PTO avoids having to step up the speed on the mower. If you buy a blower designed to run off the mid PTO, the blower gearing is designed for the higher rpm input. If you buy a rear blower, the blower gearing is designed for the relatively low (540) rpm output. If the front and rear blower gearing is designed to run each blower auger/fan at exactly the same speed, you will get more or less exactly the same performance. You may lose a little in the front blower because of the higher gear ratio to step down the high rpm mid PTO to the proper auger speed, but it will be a minor loss. So… why does Guy’s blower not bog down as much as yours? Simple answer - look at the snow speed and distance of discharge from the chute. Guy’s blower doesn’t throw the snow nearly as fast nor as far, by a good margin. There could be several reasons for this: his auger and/or fan are running slower than yours (most likely factor); his fan diameter is smaller than yours; his fan blade design is less efficient than yours; or a combination of some or all of these. Regardless, throwing the same or similar amount of snow at less speed and distance takes less power, so he bogs down less even at a higher speed than you do. You noted that his blower is 17 years old, and for the record, I have one that is double that (an old AgroTrend 72” read blower). Mine throws snow like Guy’s - it does the job but doesn’t look nearly as impressive as some of the newer blowers that throw the snow twice as far. My guess is that snowblower designers have, over the years, changed the gearing in some of the newer blowers to turn the augers and fans faster at a given tractor rpm. Why? My guess is that it’s 1 part for performance and 3 (or more) parts marketing. Just as when buying a tractor, far too many people choose HP or loader lift capacity as defining specs, I suspect the same is true for snowblowers: what is the first question a buyer wants to know? “How far does it blow the snow?” Couple that with the fact that Video - both brand advertising and TH-cam videos are now a HUGE factor in sales. For a blower manufacturer, what’s better than designing your blower to throw the snow a mile (which will be seen on those videos), even if it results in some engine strain in really deep or heavy snow. All this aside, I am continually amazed at how well your 26 hp Kubotas and front blowers do the job. The blowers work just fine and the tractors are awesome for their size. Sometimes when the going gets tough, we just need to slow down and smell the roses… or in our case in the winter… the woodsmoke! Cheers!
Same dealer as you, they recommended the 2963 to go with my lx2610 rops, I find it is great. My driveway is only 300m plus lots of concrete around the shop. Seeing your videos, tractor and blower setup seems to work for you. I am happy with the 63 inch though, i think i would like it over the 80.
It just does not matter if you go bigger or smaller as long as you are happy with your tractor and blower that is what matters. But thanks for all you do and your great videos. We would miss you if we did not get to see you every once in a while. Peace
Thanks for another great video. My LX3310 with LX2963 blower operates exactly the same as I see your LX2610 doing in the videos. I use the moto “go slow to blow”. No use overloading the engine or stalling it. When will you be removing your blower? Mine will come off on March 26th as soon as I see how much snow we get from the next storm.
Great point. It makes sense that the rear PTO operating at 540 rpm might well be geared lower than the mid mount PTO that operates at 2000-2500 rpm at the same engine speed.
My kioti has a front mount snow blower that operates exactly the same as your Kuboto. It has enought power to break shear pins so i just think that the heavy snow doesn't blow as easily as the powder snow does . Cheers Gord !!
Yup, I think it's got to be a torque and gearing issue on Guy's tractor. But it makes sense to lower your forward speed when the engine starts to bog down. No question there. Thanks for making the video! Cheers!
Since I have an L2501, there is no mid mount pto. Even if it did have one, mine is a gear drive and wouldn’t work well with a snowblower. For that usage, the HST really shines. I would have to say that there are so many variables at play here. The density of the snow, the amount of snow, and the speed of operation. I am one who wishes he had a snow blower. The only one for me at my present situation would be a rear mount and I don’t want to have to crank my head around like that constantly. The front mount would be my choice for sure.
Gary, would one of those rear mount "reversed" snowblowers work for your situation? I'm not sold on those so much as you have to drive over what you are eventually blowing but the thought of being able to leave the loader on and still blow snow in a forward direction intrigues me.
@@BeginnerforBSeries , I’m sure it would Dave. For now, I will go with what I have. The biggest plus with the equipment that I have now is that it is paid for. Perhaps one day in the future, there will be a Grand L Kubota with a cab and a front blower.
@@tractortalkwithgary1271 I want one of those too Gary but way too big for my property and driveways. Mine is also paid for but those new LX larger HP tractors look nice. 🤔
Rear pto definitely has more torque. I have a 2650 and ran a 64” conventional blower for a couple years. And now run a 60” normand hybrid inverted blower. Works very well, and you can still drive forward! Like you said, if your engine rpm starts to drop, just slow down a bit. Rear pto will bog the engine down a bit too.
Some can actually use the cruise control option...when the Kubota is so provided it should adjust ground speed to maintain the set RPM - meaning as the blower loads the tractor should automatically slow down to keep the set RPM to power the blower unit...most dont know this
Granted I run a small walk behind two stage snow blower, but the issue you have is the same as the issue I have. If I move too fast for how much snow my blower can process, I'm pushing snow more than I blow it. I look for two symptoms of this. One is the more obvious one which the snow just piles up in front of the auger housing. The second symptom is snow being left behind on each side of the blower. When I see either or both of these symptoms I slow down my forward speed or if need be stop my forward movement until the blower clears itself out and then resume at a slower speed.
I'm in northern Minnesota, running a B2301 with a rear-mounted 51" blower (Land Pride SB1051). When I back into a big mound of snow, my engine RPMs drop until the snow gets kicked out. As others have noted, this is probably because of the gearing of the blower. The high RPMs of the blower allow it to throw snow a long way, but it struggles with a heavier load. Honestly, this does the trick for me, even in years with really heavy snowfall (like this year). Having a snow thrower and blade combo (back and front) works best and fastest for me.
My question is what makes a blower to big is it cause u have to slow down while blowing snow or is it how wide it is cause if its the speed or how the engine sounds then i guess the auger is to big on my stock hand blower cause in deap snow i have to go a small bit and stop to let it catch up cause i dont like to run the rpms low for long cause it puts strain on it
A couple of questions about the PTOs: Are they both mechanically driven? I mean are they driven directly off the engine by shafts and gear? Or is one or both hydro-statically driven? (there is some equipment is which the "PTO" shaft is actually just the shaft on a hydraulic motor. ) Do the PTO's have the same drive ratio? I mean t hat for a given engine RPM, do you have the same PTO RPM on both, or does one PTO turn faster than the other?
Yes, the rear PTO has more torque than the mid pto. But that torque is regained in the blower itself with whatever gearboxes there and the small sprocket driving the large sprocket on the auger.
I 100% agree with that! The rear PTO is geared lower but the ratio at the snow blower has to adjust for that so the overall gearing is about the same as the mid PTO I'm sure the aggor and the impeller speed are about the same using a rear PTO or mid PTO.. Otherwise the snow out of a front PTO drive would get thrown 130 ft if the rear PTO drive was throwing it 30 feet. The overall speed of both are about the same so overall gearing is about the same. That's all the tractor knows so overall work being done should be the same. That brand of snow blower may not pack as much snow into the impeller as the Kubota brand so it just let's more snow be pushed in front which doesn't bog the engine.
I'm a little late to this conversation but the PTO speeds and associated torque don't have anything to do with the differences since overall power is the same to both (on the same tractor). In the case of the rear monted blower that's pushing snow, the blower is ingesting the maximum it's capable of and pushing the rest. The blower is well withing the power capacity of the tractor so the engine doesn't bog. The front mounted unit on your tractor is capable of injesting more snow which requires more power. If you haven't reached the max capacity of the blower (pushing snow) and the engine is bogging as you go faster through the snow, then you ultimately don't have enough power to drive the blower at it's max capacity. For optimum performance, you want to be going just fast enough to not be pushing snow and not bogging the engine down excessively. At that point you are maximizing the amount of snow you're moving for the blower and power combo you have.
Gord is Guy's tractor Stick or Hydro? My blower runs off a front PTO off the crank shaft on the 750 John Deere. LOL just another type. My JD is a stick so my speed is not variable like a hydro. I use the foot thottle to change the engine RPM. In this case I do push snow and I do bog down if it's too much or too wet. In Pennsylvania we tend to get heavy snow and not light power. That is just another factor. Thanks
Hi GP, once again great video and enjoyed your discussion on snowblowers. I’ve been following you when you first started with your B series. I recently found out that we’re neighbours and I own a cottage on the next lake north of yours. I’ve been coming up to that area for the last 43 years. Love your channel…Frank
Seems to me that with the engine running around a set ram the lower pto rpm would have a higher mechanical advantage then the higher pto rpm. Just my thought. My rig makes almost 4,000 ft lbs of torque in 1st gear but only 1,300 in 13th. At least according to the chassis dyno I put the truck on.
I think the mid PTO has less HP or torque that the rear PTO as well. My Massey GC2600 will bog down running the belly mower if I haven't greased the pulleys recently enough, or if the grass is tall, wet, and heavy. Just like using the 50" snow blower on the same mid PTO depending on the snow. Wet, heavy slush thrown onto the sidewalks from the road plows always makes me slow to a crawl, and bump the RPMs up just to keep the chute from clogging. Even then it can be more like a slushy machine than a snow blower. Also, for what it's worth, my Massey has 2 marks on the tach. One for the rear PTO operating speed, and a higher mark for the mid one. To me that says the engine needs to spin faster and apply a higher speed to account for the reduced power to the mid PTO. It's also a smaller coupler, so (in my mind anyway) it would be designed for less power being applied.
I would say the reason why you're neighbors tractor doesn't bog down because it's not blowing the same amount of snow, ie it's just spilling off to the side because the auger inst forcing it into the impeller housing.
Gordon, it looks like Guy's blower, that operates off the rear PTO, either has a smaller impeller which only alloys a certain amount of snow in at a time, or it just plain turns a lot slower because of the 540 PTO. It will never bog down the tractor too much since it's, in essence, regulating the amount of snow entering the impeller since it's a smaller diameter, or not turning as fast. Notice also that his isn't throwing the snow as far. That's another sign his impeller is smaller or turning slower. Also, does your blower have a gear reduction at the blower to account for the 2500 RPM mid PTO? If that's the case, it's probably very close to the same final gearing as the 540 RPM rear PTO. Yours is just geared down at the blower instead of internally in the tractor.
Same engine rpm puts 540 to the rear pto and 2500 to the mid. So i agree the rear pto must have lots more torque. My wheels usually slip before i lag the engine with rear mounted blower (also hard to go very fast)
As an afterthought from my previous comment, perhaps the necessity to slow ground speed to keep proper rpm range was intended by Kubota. If you don't have to slow down because of engine overloading, whether intentionally or not, you end up plowing material rather than displacing it through the blower, as was seen with your friends setup. Perhaps we should give credit where it's due. The differences between draft effect on mid versus rear PTO are likely exactly as the engineers expected, and as the unit was designed to perform. And in the real world, no matter how much horsepower is available to an operator, there are ways to bring a machine to its knees, and even tear itself apart. All equipment has limits.
The rear pto is 540rpm and has more torque. The rear pto is designed to transmit more power. It’s the same with my bigger tractors they have more power at the rear versus their front pto.
Just because an implement is compatible with a particular tractor does not necessarily mean it is "matched" for it. It is quite common for folks to purchase a snow blower that is too large (wide) for their tractor. It most cases they just need to go slower. As for Guy's and your tractor, the mid and rear PTO have the same horsepower. It's not uncommon for 3rd party front blowers to run from a gearbox on the rear PTO. You don't see that much anymore as that extra drivetrain makes them very expensive. Don't forget, his L3400 has 28HP on the PTO. Your LX2610 only has 19HP on the PTO. That's a pretty bug difference.
Can you compare the impeller/fan diameter and depth of your blower and Guy’s? The impeller is the power hog in a blower, but with a small (or slower) impeller you can run out of snow volume ejected before you run out of power, causing the blower to push the extra snow like a plow. I’d guess that’s the difference rather than mid-PTO torque, given that your mid-PTO is likely geared down to drive the impeller at the same rpm (and therefore torque) as Guy’s blower.
I thought your tractor handled that snowblower really well. Even though Guy can push snow in front, it sure seems like yours moves more snow. What I would suggest is that you buy the new LX4020 and do a comparison! 😁
I know Gord, there is always another keyboard expert out there. I still have people telling me they will never use a pull type snowblower because driving over the snow 1st packs it down. And you're right about the rear vs mid pto. In rear lower rpms @ 540 makes torque and might not shoot the snow as far as front mid-pto. Mid-pto has higher rpms and will bog down if ingesting too much sooner, BUT it shoots the snow further on average. This is where the relation between HP/torque plays out in different results.
I don't know about the snowblowers but I run a rear mounted finish mower very rare that gets bogged down going through heavy stuff. So yes I would agree the the rear PTO has more torque.
You hit the nail on the head with your torque reasoning the rear pto is running at 540 rpm by the same hp input you will get much more torque than at the 2500 mid pto
I had a John Deere 3720 with the front mount JD 60 blower. I could push snow with it like the none factory set up in your video. I think it's because the fan on the blower is too small ( not enough capacity). Meaning the tractor has enough power to handle the fan taking all it can and if you go faster it will just pile up in front. Just my opinion! Cheers.
One more example of how these tractors are engineered to work with appropriately sized attachments. Our nature is always to push the limits and ideally the blower and tractor will reach their limits around the same time. The LX 3310 will likely be able to run that blower at a slightly higher speed but the next fail point will be a shear pin if the load is getting too much for the blower. You could solve that by putting higher gauge shear pin in but then the next fail point could be a broken chain or gear box and that would not be fun. I have a Massey GC 1715 with front blower rear blade and notice the same thing in heavy snow. It will bog down and if I push it too hard it's the shear pin on the fan that tells me to slow down. I'm guessing that Guy's blower not slowing down is because the input auger is a bit too small for the capacity of the blower. It doesn't keep up with the snow so it pushes it. If it was larger it bring the snow in and bog down the machine. Keep up the great posts!
This has nothing to do with your blower at all. I just want to thank you for noting Buckin' Billy Ray's site. I have learned more in two months about cutting wood and he has dispelled more myths as to how you are supposed to tension a chain, how long a bar, how much power, how to sharpen especially, tooth sizes being different and why a short bar is more dangerous than a long bar.. Nice to learn from someone extremely knowledgeable. Going to save up for a saw that can take up to a 32" bar. He uses 28" and 32" a lot. Again Thanks Gordon.
If it can pull the RPM down I would say it's getting all the power at the PTO. Anything can be underpowered if you push it hard enough. Different snow has many different characteristics. Unless it's side by side it's really hard to tell. All beauty units! Love the Kabotas.
I'm guessing, but I'm thinking the rear PTO is designed with more torque for heavier draft applications as would be encountered with farming operations The mid PTO with higher rpms (obviously geared higher) is likely made primarily for lawn mowing; the front blower, while convenient compared to backing with a rear mounted one, reaches the upper limit of available power. Heavy draft has more affect on the higher gearing. Design pros and cons that unfortunately are learned after signing the bottom line my friend. Either way you have a good, reliable, useful machine.
Now I feel the need to know what or how all that horse power and torque gets from the rear p.t.o. all the way to the very front of his tractor? I didn't come here for a home work assignment , 😊 What's the answer , professor? 🤔😄. Good presentation today.
Isn't Guy's tractor an L3400 or similar? That is a larger horsepower tractor. Some would argue he could run a much wider blower than the 60" he has. There is likely something to the rear PTO having more torque at 540 rpm than a mid PTO tractor.
How's she goin'? I have always thought your blower, this one and the one on your first Kubota, were well matched to the tractor HP. Bogging down is just what happens under load like you explained. I have a rear blower and it bogs down too. I started with a front blower and it would bog down more that the reat one so I'm thinking the rear PTO has more HP out than the mid. But I have never checked to confirm this. Anyways, this was an interesting video!! Thanks and take 'er easy!!
While shopping for my first Kubota 20 years ago I saw comments from the Internet Experts stating that the matched blower I was considering tended to bog the tractor down in heavy snow. When I questioned my dealer about this his advice was - slow down.
PTO speed differences: what does is the engine tachometer RPM for the 540 rpm rear pto and the mid 2000 rpm pto? The engine will probably be turning about the same either way, hence, no difference to the engine. Drivetrain losses are another kettle of fish.
That is correct. Because the rear PTO is geared lower and runs at lower speed it does have more torque. If you look in your owners manual specs it will tell you the torque for the mid and the rear PTO. Your blower is running as designed, there is nothing wrong from what I see. Just like brush mowers on the rear PTO of these tractors don't bog the engine as much as a belly mower.
I mean, there are people out there who can stall a walk-behind snowblower... It's all in your experience. There are "tractor drivers" and then there are "operators"
Hi GP as a general Engineer rule when you compare higher rpm versus lower RPM you will lose torque. As is the Mid PTO runs at 2500 versus the rear at 530. It’s true with a vehicle taking of in sixth gear versus first gear. The engine want to die. Nothing wrong with your tractor and blower. My B2650 does the same thing. It’s not a race is the way I look at it. Beets the shovel. Cheers.
The rear PTO is geared differently and since it spins at a lower speed, it has more torque than the mid-PTO. If you hooked identical implements to both the mid and rear PTO, on the rear it would spin slower and have more torque. On the front (mid PTO) it would spin faster but have less torque. That’s not the whole story though. Each implement is geared differently, after the PTO input shaft. If you put a blower geared for 2000 RPM input on a 540 RPM shaft, it wouldn’t blow snow very far at all. The blowers have gear boxes or chain drives that change the rotation speed from input to the fan. The fan has an ideal speed to throw snow. If you speed up through gearing, you also loose torque. I’ve seen front mount blowers that can push snow and not affect engine speed. In fact, I’ve seen the same 47” deere snow blower bring a 445 engine to its knees, but when mounted on a 1025R the tractor will never run out of power. Each blower has a limit to how much snow it can ingest. Each tractor has a power level it will put out. Your the blower on your LX2610 has more capacity than the power output of the tractor. The Kubota blowers appear to have a larger diameter fan and deeper fan which gives them more snow capacity. If you mount the same blower on the new LX4020 you will be able to go faster before bogging down.😊
I find if the 950 cat loader don’t push the snow , time to get out 988 cat loader for push snow . I work with power and weight GP . 😊blower on loader got there own engine for blowing snow . All I know with snow is a lot off snow you need more power to move it’s for sure . In 709 go big or stay home come to snow ( white gold ) .
The mid PTO is a direct drive connection running at the same speed as the engine's crankshaft. The rear PTO is running at 1/5th the speed of the crankshaft. This is achieved through gearing, which as you alluded to does result in a linear increase in torque. So yes, the rear PTO delivers 5 times the torque of the mid PTO, but they both deliver the same horsepower (horsepower is a product of torque and RPM). But this is not why your machine loses speed. Your LX2980 has a reduction gearbox mounted to it. It reduces the PTO speed and increases the torque, so your blower fan and auger are getting the higher torque that a rear PTO would deliver, it's just being reduced at the implement instead of in the transmission. Your LX2980 has a larger fan than the blower on Guy's L3400. Plus, the L3400 has a bigger engine delivering more horsepower and more torque than the LX2610 (40% more). The LX2980 is performance matched for the LX models, but keep in mind that the LX3310 has a 4-cylinder turbo engine that delivers 25% more hp and torque than the LX2610. Does that mean that the LX2980 is too big for the LX2610...? Well, no, but the truth of the matter is that you aren't going to be able to drive that thing into deep snow at the same speed as if you had more juice. As you've discovered, the power you have dictates your ground speed.
I think thats where people make the comparison, They know how a rear mount 3PT eats up snow.. And the front mount can't eat into the snow quite as fast.. bota driver just switched from a front mount to a rear 3PT blower.. He would have some good fresh insight to the performance differences!!
GP I have the kubota B 2320 with B 2781 51 inch matched blower mid pto almost always run it at 2600 rpms even downhill in my driveway always in low gear what I think I have noticed watching your videos and I know you have a long driveway I don’t think you always use the low gear and I always notice your engine RPMs drop just my opinion I think you’re going to fast do you like your videos though thank you John
Hey thanks John! I do sometimes use medium range if there is a little snow but honestly, 90%+ of the time I am in Low range. Thanks for the good info on yours. Cheers!
One of the most INSANE things so many folks don't consider: the idea of driving backwards with a rear-mount / rear-facing blower is just absolutely mind-boggling to some (myself included). Comfort and not having a twisted back / neck after a clean-up is a small price to pay for arguably 20% less power / performance. I run a BX now with a Curtis Cab and front-blower. Is it great? Depends on the snow type. Blower powder - zero issues! Chunky wet snow - what a nightmare... but I'm still warm, zero pain, and done in an hour regardless. My buddy has a massive machine without a cab and a rear-mount blower. He's done in half the time with zero issues regardless of snow type / amount. He's also sore, stiff necked, and cold. To me (and we're all entitled to our own opinions) - I'm winning.
Siebar: at some point I 100% will be upgrading into an LX4020 and again will go with the front-mounted blower. Only different thing I'll do this time around - I'll put a hydraulic angle-blade on this time. The current rear-blade I run is a PITA to change angles and the lack of minor adjustability isn't ideal. GP has it right.
If you guys worked together he could wipe out the big long straight stretches while you get the tight spots. Also you know Millions of us snow ski every year for hours on end in warmth with the right clothes. A back up camera and screen is like 60 bucks or mount some mirrors. It's not that hard.
@@NoName-ml5yk I’m that guy too - ski 30+ days a year in NY VT CO UT and Canada. Dress for it - totally. Even hike 4-5x a winter. Just zero desire personally to deal with cold or snow while on tractor. Headphones on warm cab get shit done! Haha
I have a rear blower and it powers out the tractor if it is overloaded the same as the front mount blowers. As for is the blower too big for the tractor. More hp just means you can drive faster. If faster is not a critical factor, your tractor is big enough. Something to think about is the dimensions of the fan. I run a Farm King, blower and it uses the same fan dimensions (22”x7”) in their 50”, 60” and 66” blowers. In theory all three snow blowers should move the same cubic feet of snow. The difference is you will need to drive faster with the smaller blower to keep it full. I would be interested in knowing the fan dimensions of Guy’s blower vs yours. I would like someone to do a test with different blowers. My understanding is that the Kubota blower uses a bigger fan (could not find the dimensions) to increase tip speed and throw the snow farther. This in theory would take more power but would be very useful for clearing a big area where you need to blow the snow in front of you. Everything is a tradeoff. Have a Great day!
If you had a 20 inch snow shovel and 10 folks watching...
3 people would say it is to small...
3 people would say it is to big...
3 people would suggest a broom...
1 would believe you had made the best choice!🤠
Your blower is working as designed. There’s lots of people who have very little operating experience that seem to think a matched attachment means they can power through anything without any loss in speed/power. I read in a manual for a tractor years ago that the mark on your tachometer for pto speed is actually just above your peak torque range. That way when you place a load on your tractor and it lugs down, it actually comes into peak torque and although it sounds like you’re experiencing big drops in power and speed the tractor is actually hitting its stride. That hydrostatic whine also makes it sound like it’s really laboring vs a gear drive. It’s all about knowing limitations. My dad always says “there’s drivers and there’s operators. Which one are you?” Kind of goes along with his other favorite. “There’s operators with 25 year’s experience and ones with 1 year experience 25 times”. Hope this helps
LOL! It does - thanks - good description and a wise dad, too. Cheers Bulldog!
Agreed. For all diesel engines, the torque curve is a somewhat bell shaped, with peak rpm, then rated, then peak torque, then it starts dropping off torque. People have this fallacy that since the engine is losing rpm, it's losing power, which isn't the case until you exceed the peak torque, then yes, it loses power and rpm
Never in a hurry when you're in a heated cab! slow and steady my friend ! should be getting my grand L 3560 with mid pto kit and 64" front blower mid april (scheduled to arrive april 4th) Cant wait
I run a 74 " snowblower on my Kubota Grand L 3560.
I few years ago I ran a 7 foot on it as well.
Great thing to have a hydrostatic transmission and the
"Stall Guard " feature on this tractor as it automatically adjusts speed to power accordingly !
I seem to remember from previous episodes that Guys tractor has a larger engine and higher torque that yours. It also looks like he has a small blower. A larger tractor to blower ratio will push snow like Guys. The problem with his setup is that unless he has a heavy built snow blower with heavy gear/chains/etc (which it looks like he has along with that very nice tilt articulation) could pack wet snow into the auger so hard that is could break the sheer pin.
Typically I find when people say "you need a bigger tractor for ___" it really means "I have not spent enough time and effort to learn the capabilities of my equipment so I need a larger tractor to compensate..."
Great video Gord. Have a great week.
Most snowblowers are designed to have the impeller spin at around 1250 RPM, this is also true for walk behind snowblower.
So, to have a snowblower properly matched to your tractor, it should have a gearbox or gear chain ratio geared up or down to spin the impeller at that speed. If a snowblower uses a rear PTO that spin at say 540 RPM, then it should be geared up so the impeller spins at around 1250 RPM. Mid PTO usually spin faster than 1250 RPM so the snowblower gear ratio should be geared down to spin the impeller at around 1250 RM.
Usually larger tractors have lower mid PTO RPMs because the engine is more powerful and can use geared up attachments gearbox when required.
I have a small 18HP garden tractor, John Deere 322 with a front PTO that spin at 3425 RPM.
The gearbox on the snowblower is geared down almost 3:1 giving it a lot of torque and the engine will almost never bog down, even hitting a 3 feet snowdrift.
Now, it you take a 23 HP sub-compact John Deere 1025R with the same size snowblower, it will bog down the engine or even stall the engine if you go in the same 3 feet snowdrift too fast. The mid PTO on the 1025R is 2100 RPM, so the snowblower matched to it will have a gear down at around only 1.7:1.
What makes a particular snowblower throw snow further than an other, is not the impeller speed, but the tip velocity (ft/min), a larger impeller (fan) will have a larger tip velocity than a smaller impeller. Also the spacing tolerance of the impeller tips versus the impeller housing will determine how well it will able to eject wet snow.
Did I confused anyone?
LOL
Cheers
🌨🌨🌨🌨🌨🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜
Morning Gord! I was concerned that my B2601 was too small for the Woodland Mills WC68 wood chipper. But WM just recommended limiting the diameter of the limbs I feed into it. So although the chipper is technically capable of receiving up to 6 inches, I limit it to 3 inches and it works great. So your strategy to just slow down makes sense 👍😄
Morning Ed! Sounds about right - same as with my chipper. Have a great weekend!
@@GPOutdoors Great video and discussion. Using the chipper as an example what is the symptom for potentially damaging the tractor if you feed in a thicker limb? Do you just run slower or can you break something?
@@wkimzey As long as you use shear pins, they are there and designed just for that. Breaking before doing any damage to the rest of the tractor. When you bog it down, you're just slowing the engine and dumping fuel for nothing.
I think that's all there is to it. Just because my Toyota Corolla can hit 120 mph, doesn't mean it should do that in any sort of sustained fashion, if I want it to last. And just because it'll get 45 mpg doesn't mean it will do it while going 90 mph. If you want maximum performance and efficiency, it's up to the operator to scale their use to match. Seems like GP is doing just that.
Hi Gordon, I am a new subscriber to your channel. I love the snow removal videos. I ordered a new Kubota L6060HST with a front blower and as much as I am looking forward to spring, I will be anxious to try it out next winter. I don't have the new tractor yet but will be getting it in the next few weeks. Can't wait. I ordered the snowblower, Land Planner, box blade and an offset back blade with mine. I already have a grapple and rake from my old tractor so I will have fun playing this summer. Take care and keep making the videos...they're great!
Hey congrats Jeff! That's great. Yes - I imagine you must be excited to fire it up for sure. Enjoy the new tractor! Le me know how it goes.
Good morning Gord, you're doing a great job with how you manage your equipment and not overloading it's capacity. Slowing down and letting it chew and spit out easier is the way to go and you enjoy what and the way you handle things. Working by the hour sure beats flag time and saves on damaged equipment and shoddy work. Keep up the good videos and the fun you show too. Fred.
Thanks Fred! Lots of rain and warm temps this week so the snow is on it's way out now ( LOL- I think). Cheers!
@@GPOutdoors How close was the amount of snow this year to the normal average for your area?
GP,
I have a Massey Ferguson GC1710 that is about 19hp at the rear PTO and I have a 60 inch farmking blower and I can overload it and almost stall it out if I go into a really deep bank. If i plow less than 12-14 inches, it will handle it fine. I have been plowing with blowers for over 30 years and with up to 110hp tractors, and it is exactly as you said. You load too much snow and the blower can't process it fast enough, you will overload it, and the RPM will slow down until you clear out the amount of snow. Great setup you have, and your blower is perfect for that tractor! Cheers
Good morning Bob! - Thanks for sharing the experience and info. Very helpful for me and others. Enjoy the weekend and all the best!
You’re right, it’s a matter of torque vs speed. The math is: Power = Torque x Speed. Faster PTO -> less torque for the same power.
I had an LX2610 ROPS model with the residential LX2963 front mount snowblower. I thought it worked great, having nothing else to compare it to. I did have to work the pedal based on engine sound and RPMS but it sure beat my walk behind. After a few times on that ROPS model I decided that the Upper Pennisula of Michigan winters were just too harsh and I needed a cab. I traded in my ROPS LX2610 and my dealer said "If you're going to upgrade, upgrade." and he talked me into an LX3310. I can not get over the difference that the extra HP makes. There is almost no need to keep working the pedal and I can go must faster. I actually talked to the dealer and told him that I thought the 2610 was a little under powered for that blower based on my new experience. He assured me that the blower was matched to both of the LX models and that the 2610 was actually the more popular model. I Love the channel. Keep doing what you're doing! Have a great weekend.
I’m in the UP as well and on the cusp of a decision. I’m a little concerned about the added complexity of the turbo and regeneration. Do you have any regrets with the 3310 paired with the 2980? I’m also considering the Mahindra 1635 paired with a BERSB66 blower. Seems you get more tractor from Mahindra but I’m not yet sure about the Mahindra service which is out of a Harley dealership. The Kubota dealership seems more at the varsity level for service but I reach that conclusion only from the fact that Mahindra tractors are a side-gig to the Harley Davidson bikes.
@@kevincarlisle2027 Did you purchase the lx3310? I’m looking at one with a b2970 blower which is 54” wide with the wing/drift cutter extension kit. Wondering if that blower width will be undersized? I know the 63” is more common.
Thanks for the informative comment. I’ve been trying to get talked into going from my old 30hp to the 26hp to avoid the regen. system. Speculating the reduced size/power will definitely be noticeable under snow blowing use.
Another consideration in the selection and use of equipment is the quality of the snow: regional differences reflecting the range from light dry to wet saturated snow, crusted, old/new fallen, snow banks courtesy of road plows, snow depths, etc. Regardless, the operator is key to effective use; anyone who has used a walk-behind blower quickly recognizes that some finesse is part of the equation.
For comparison, we have a 60” WoodMaxx blower on the rear of our LX2610 (ROPS model). It takes quite a bit to slow it down, even in heavy snow. It’s possible to slow the engine RPMs a little bit, but it’ll chew through just about anything. I ground up a driveway marker this winter. It spat out fiberglass shards. Haven’t yet had it break a shear bolt. It’d be interesting for you to try a rear blower an front and compare. I doubt you’d want to use a rear blower to clear your driveway, though. Ours is long enough at 500 feet or so. Driving backward is fine for short distances, but a literal pain in the neck for longer stretches.
I run a rear mounted PTO snowblower on a Bobcat CT 5558 which is a 58 hp Tractor. Since it’s rear mounted, I typically wind row the snow, then make one pass with the snowblower. It will definitely bog down if I push it hard. Because the snow was plowed, it is very dense.
Great video and awesome explanations. Regarding having to slow down when there is a bit too much snow coming in for the blower, that is true for ALL snowblowers -- even push ones like mine.
It seems to be working just fine
I have to say Gord, your tractor and blower are working perfectly. The dealers know what works and what's to big or to small. All the R&D has been sorted long before the dealers get the products and RESPECTFULL Dealer won't sell you a 10 foot blower for a 20HP tractor and vice versa. I build farm equipment for one of the top brands and I can tell you this...what we put a machine through when it goes for testing, would take a Farmer 15 years years of normal use to break stuff if they use it as designed. Now that doesn't mean stuff can't break under normal wear and tear, but all the pieces have been tested to work together and create a great product that should last a long time. Your tractor probably has had 3 different blowers on it to determine which one fits the HP range and torque and clear the wheels and so on. I'd say you have a winner with this setup.
You are exactly right. I have a L4060 with front blower operating from the mid PTO and engine rpm drops if you load it too much. I just back off a little on the speed and let it work. A buddy down the road had a L6060 with rear blower and I saw him pushing the snow in front of the blower as you described without it bogging down.
Where did you attach your shoot deflector hoses? It looks like they are attached to the brush guard. thanks!
Good morning GP. I used your complete setup for my purchase two years ago. It works perfectly for me! Thanks.
👍 ooops. All my plowable areas are level, didn’t need the chains.
Is Guy’s transmission hydrostatic?
Morning Roger. Yes it is. Have a good one!
Interesting conversation about to happen here, I look at it as 2 things, 1 - your retired, 2 - its not a race. Bigger machine equals bigger costs, to save 10 or 15 minutes, they don't put racing stripes on a tractor for a reason. Let hope the weather for the weekend is not what their calling for, I'll take the snow but not the rain. Cheers and have a great weekend. Pete
When I got the same tractor and blower that you have, I expected it to move snow faster than it does. I felt like it was underpowered for the size of blower. Now that I have about 30 hours on it, I’ve become very content with it, and don’t think I would change a thing. If I really want to blast through snow, I would have gotten a skidsteer with a blower. But this tractor will work great for my property.
It works far better than the 42” craftsman riding mower blower that I was using previously.
Thanks for addressing this! I appreciate your honesty!
Does the mid mount run pullies and a belt? If it does can't you run a smaller pully for more auger speed?
Did you the rotation
Of the shaft
Clockwise
And counter clockwise
Howdy your videos are great. Question with a front or rear blower on a gravel driveway do you find that you break the machine a lot? Or does the machine just push the gravel right through? Thanks for any info
Thanks kindly. Great question - no, not once . The gravel will fly through it but if you catch a sizeable stone or rock, it can get stuck and will break the Shear Pin. Quick chnge to a new shear pin and all good. So whatever models you may be considering, ask them to show you where the shear pins are located and how many there are. This model here has 3 shear pins to protect the unit. Shear pins are like a bolt with a shank and nut - about 40cents each. Cheers!
Good questions here, Gord, and there have been some good responses already. I’ll weigh in here, and some of what I will say is somewhat speculative because I don’t know the full design of your and Guy’s tractors (though I’ll state my assumptions), but I do know a little something about engineering. The key thing to know is that Power - which is the measure that matters for throwing snow - is the product of torque times speed. Now here’s my assumption: regardless of the fact that your mid PTO turns faster than the rear PTO, both should produce the same power, give or take. It’s possible the mid PTO may be a couple percent less because of the higher gear losses, but it wouldn’t be significant. Mid-PTO’s are designed to run mowers, which require high rpm, and having the higher speed at the PTO avoids having to step up the speed on the mower.
If you buy a blower designed to run off the mid PTO, the blower gearing is designed for the higher rpm input. If you buy a rear blower, the blower gearing is designed for the relatively low (540) rpm output. If the front and rear blower gearing is designed to run each blower auger/fan at exactly the same speed, you will get more or less exactly the same performance. You may lose a little in the front blower because of the higher gear ratio to step down the high rpm mid PTO to the proper auger speed, but it will be a minor loss.
So… why does Guy’s blower not bog down as much as yours? Simple answer - look at the snow speed and distance of discharge from the chute. Guy’s blower doesn’t throw the snow nearly as fast nor as far, by a good margin. There could be several reasons for this: his auger and/or fan are running slower than yours (most likely factor); his fan diameter is smaller than yours; his fan blade design is less efficient than yours; or a combination of some or all of these. Regardless, throwing the same or similar amount of snow at less speed and distance takes less power, so he bogs down less even at a higher speed than you do.
You noted that his blower is 17 years old, and for the record, I have one that is double that (an old AgroTrend 72” read blower). Mine throws snow like Guy’s - it does the job but doesn’t look nearly as impressive as some of the newer blowers that throw the snow twice as far. My guess is that snowblower designers have, over the years, changed the gearing in some of the newer blowers to turn the augers and fans faster at a given tractor rpm. Why? My guess is that it’s 1 part for performance and 3 (or more) parts marketing. Just as when buying a tractor, far too many people choose HP or loader lift capacity as defining specs, I suspect the same is true for snowblowers: what is the first question a buyer wants to know? “How far does it blow the snow?”
Couple that with the fact that Video - both brand advertising and TH-cam videos are now a HUGE factor in sales. For a blower manufacturer, what’s better than designing your blower to throw the snow a mile (which will be seen on those videos), even if it results in some engine strain in really deep or heavy snow.
All this aside, I am continually amazed at how well your 26 hp Kubotas and front blowers do the job. The blowers work just fine and the tractors are awesome for their size. Sometimes when the going gets tough, we just need to slow down and smell the roses… or in our case in the winter… the woodsmoke!
Cheers!
Same dealer as you, they recommended the 2963 to go with my lx2610 rops, I find it is great. My driveway is only 300m plus lots of concrete around the shop. Seeing your videos, tractor and blower setup seems to work for you. I am happy with the 63 inch though, i think i would like it over the 80.
Do you still have the spreader for sand or just find it easier to leave the snow in place?
Thanks Mr P. Cheers!
Morning Ernest!
It just does not matter if you go bigger or smaller as long as you are happy with your tractor and blower that is what matters. But thanks for all you do and your great videos. We would miss you if we did not get to see you every once in a while. Peace
You’re a good man Charlie Brown
LOL! Thanks!
great weather sunny and hot here in tampa need help up there?
Thanks for another great video. My LX3310 with LX2963 blower operates exactly the same as I see your LX2610 doing in the videos. I use the moto “go slow to blow”. No use overloading the engine or stalling it. When will you be removing your blower? Mine will come off on March 26th as soon as I see how much snow we get from the next storm.
Great point. It makes sense that the rear PTO operating at 540 rpm might well be geared lower than the mid mount PTO that operates at 2000-2500 rpm at the same engine speed.
Hi Gord, haven’t seen a video of you sanding. Have you had to use it this past winter ?
Morning Gerry. I just mentioned to Guy last week that I have not had to use sand all winter. And that's rare for sure. Cheers!
Another great video GP keep it up and stay safe.
My kioti has a front mount snow blower that operates exactly the same as your Kuboto. It has enought power to break shear pins so i just think that the heavy snow doesn't blow as easily as the powder snow does . Cheers Gord !!
Guy’s setup might push a little more snow than yours but I’d venture a guess that your cab heater works a little better than his!
Great setup. Where are you located?
I don't know, but in any case, it sure beats a shovel!🤣👨🚒
Yup, I think it's got to be a torque and gearing issue on Guy's tractor. But it makes sense to lower your forward speed when the engine starts to bog down. No question there. Thanks for making the video! Cheers!
Since I have an L2501, there is no mid mount pto.
Even if it did have one, mine is a gear drive and wouldn’t work well with a snowblower. For that usage, the HST really shines.
I would have to say that there are so many variables at play here. The density of the snow, the amount of snow, and the speed of operation.
I am one who wishes he had a snow blower. The only one for me at my present situation would be a rear mount and I don’t want to have to crank my head around like that constantly. The front mount would be my choice for sure.
Gary, would one of those rear mount "reversed" snowblowers work for your situation? I'm not sold on those so much as you have to drive over what you are eventually blowing but the thought of being able to leave the loader on and still blow snow in a forward direction intrigues me.
@@BeginnerforBSeries , I’m sure it would Dave. For now, I will go with what I have. The biggest plus with the equipment that I have now is that it is paid for.
Perhaps one day in the future, there will be a Grand L Kubota with a cab and a front blower.
@@tractortalkwithgary1271 I want one of those too Gary but way too big for my property and driveways. Mine is also paid for but those new LX larger HP tractors look nice. 🤔
Rear pto definitely has more torque. I have a 2650 and ran a 64” conventional blower for a couple years. And now run a 60” normand hybrid inverted blower. Works very well, and you can still drive forward! Like you said, if your engine rpm starts to drop, just slow down a bit. Rear pto will bog the engine down a bit too.
Some can actually use the cruise control option...when the Kubota is so provided it should adjust ground speed to maintain the set RPM - meaning as the blower loads the tractor should automatically slow down to keep the set RPM to power the blower unit...most dont know this
Granted I run a small walk behind two stage snow blower, but the issue you have is the same as the issue I have. If I move too fast for how much snow my blower can process, I'm pushing snow more than I blow it. I look for two symptoms of this. One is the more obvious one which the snow just piles up in front of the auger housing. The second symptom is snow being left behind on each side of the blower. When I see either or both of these symptoms I slow down my forward speed or if need be stop my forward movement until the blower clears itself out and then resume at a slower speed.
I'm in northern Minnesota, running a B2301 with a rear-mounted 51" blower (Land Pride SB1051). When I back into a big mound of snow, my engine RPMs drop until the snow gets kicked out. As others have noted, this is probably because of the gearing of the blower. The high RPMs of the blower allow it to throw snow a long way, but it struggles with a heavier load. Honestly, this does the trick for me, even in years with really heavy snowfall (like this year). Having a snow thrower and blade combo (back and front) works best and fastest for me.
My question is what makes a blower to big is it cause u have to slow down while blowing snow or is it how wide it is cause if its the speed or how the engine sounds then i guess the auger is to big on my stock hand blower cause in deap snow i have to go a small bit and stop to let it catch up cause i dont like to run the rpms low for long cause it puts strain on it
I ordered up an LX3520 but it was a tough choice between that and the LX2620
your machine looks well matched . i have 61 h.p. bobcat toolcat 28 g.p.m. hydrilic .alos fine for me . god bless the potter family .
Did you consider the 2963 blower? Do you think it’s worth the extra money for the 2980?
A couple of questions about the PTOs: Are they both mechanically driven? I mean are they driven directly off the engine by shafts and gear? Or is one or both hydro-statically driven? (there is some equipment is which the "PTO" shaft is actually just the shaft on a hydraulic motor. ) Do the PTO's have the same drive ratio? I mean t hat for a given engine RPM, do you have the same PTO RPM on both, or does one PTO turn faster than the other?
Yes, the rear PTO has more torque than the mid pto. But that torque is regained in the blower itself with whatever gearboxes there and the small sprocket driving the large sprocket on the auger.
I 100% agree with that! The rear PTO is geared lower but the ratio at the snow blower has to adjust for that so the overall gearing is about the same as the mid PTO I'm sure the aggor and the impeller speed are about the same using a rear PTO or mid PTO.. Otherwise the snow out of a front PTO drive would get thrown 130 ft if the rear PTO drive was throwing it 30 feet. The overall speed of both are about the same so overall gearing is about the same. That's all the tractor knows so overall work being done should be the same. That brand of snow blower may not pack as much snow into the impeller as the Kubota brand so it just let's more snow be pushed in front which doesn't bog the engine.
@@markpontes4457 Older blowers usually turned slower. Newer ones often try to aerate the snow by churning it in the auger.
I'm a little late to this conversation but the PTO speeds and associated torque don't have anything to do with the differences since overall power is the same to both (on the same tractor). In the case of the rear monted blower that's pushing snow, the blower is ingesting the maximum it's capable of and pushing the rest. The blower is well withing the power capacity of the tractor so the engine doesn't bog. The front mounted unit on your tractor is capable of injesting more snow which requires more power. If you haven't reached the max capacity of the blower (pushing snow) and the engine is bogging as you go faster through the snow, then you ultimately don't have enough power to drive the blower at it's max capacity.
For optimum performance, you want to be going just fast enough to not be pushing snow and not bogging the engine down excessively. At that point you are maximizing the amount of snow you're moving for the blower and power combo you have.
Gord is Guy's tractor Stick or Hydro? My blower runs off a front PTO off the crank shaft on the 750 John Deere. LOL just another type. My JD is a stick so my speed is not variable like a hydro. I use the foot thottle to change the engine RPM. In this case I do push snow and I do bog down if it's too much or too wet. In Pennsylvania we tend to get heavy snow and not light power. That is just another factor. Thanks
Hydro
Have a good weekend GP. 👍✊
You too Bob!
Hi GP, once again great video and enjoyed your discussion on snowblowers. I’ve been following you when you first started with your B series.
I recently found out that we’re neighbours and I own a cottage on the next lake north of yours. I’ve been coming up to that area for the last 43 years.
Love your channel…Frank
Think about it this way it's like using a walk behind snowblower you got to go slower and heavy snow you can walk faster and lighter snow
my dad used a front end loader bucket to remove the snow
Seems to me that with the engine running around a set ram the lower pto rpm would have a higher mechanical advantage then the higher pto rpm. Just my thought. My rig makes almost 4,000 ft lbs of torque in 1st gear but only 1,300 in 13th. At least according to the chassis dyno I put the truck on.
I think the mid PTO has less HP or torque that the rear PTO as well. My Massey GC2600 will bog down running the belly mower if I haven't greased the pulleys recently enough, or if the grass is tall, wet, and heavy. Just like using the 50" snow blower on the same mid PTO depending on the snow. Wet, heavy slush thrown onto the sidewalks from the road plows always makes me slow to a crawl, and bump the RPMs up just to keep the chute from clogging. Even then it can be more like a slushy machine than a snow blower. Also, for what it's worth, my Massey has 2 marks on the tach. One for the rear PTO operating speed, and a higher mark for the mid one. To me that says the engine needs to spin faster and apply a higher speed to account for the reduced power to the mid PTO. It's also a smaller coupler, so (in my mind anyway) it would be designed for less power being applied.
I would say the reason why you're neighbors tractor doesn't bog down because it's not blowing the same amount of snow, ie it's just spilling off to the side because the auger inst forcing it into the impeller housing.
Gordon, it looks like Guy's blower, that operates off the rear PTO, either has a smaller impeller which only alloys a certain amount of snow in at a time, or it just plain turns a lot slower because of the 540 PTO. It will never bog down the tractor too much since it's, in essence, regulating the amount of snow entering the impeller since it's a smaller diameter, or not turning as fast. Notice also that his isn't throwing the snow as far. That's another sign his impeller is smaller or turning slower.
Also, does your blower have a gear reduction at the blower to account for the 2500 RPM mid PTO? If that's the case, it's probably very close to the same final gearing as the 540 RPM rear PTO. Yours is just geared down at the blower instead of internally in the tractor.
Same engine rpm puts 540 to the rear pto and 2500 to the mid. So i agree the rear pto must have lots more torque. My wheels usually slip before i lag the engine with rear mounted blower (also hard to go very fast)
As an afterthought from my previous comment, perhaps the necessity to slow ground speed to keep proper rpm range was intended by Kubota. If you don't have to slow down because of engine overloading, whether intentionally or not, you end up plowing material rather than displacing it through the blower, as was seen with your friends setup. Perhaps we should give credit where it's due. The differences between draft effect on mid versus rear PTO are likely exactly as the engineers expected, and as the unit was designed to perform. And in the real world, no matter how much horsepower is available to an operator, there are ways to bring a machine to its knees, and even tear itself apart. All equipment has limits.
The rear pto is 540rpm and has more torque. The rear pto is designed to transmit more power. It’s the same with my bigger tractors they have more power at the rear versus their front pto.
Thanks James! Super helpful info
Just because an implement is compatible with a particular tractor does not necessarily mean it is "matched" for it. It is quite common for folks to purchase a snow blower that is too large (wide) for their tractor. It most cases they just need to go slower. As for Guy's and your tractor, the mid and rear PTO have the same horsepower. It's not uncommon for 3rd party front blowers to run from a gearbox on the rear PTO. You don't see that much anymore as that extra drivetrain makes them very expensive. Don't forget, his L3400 has 28HP on the PTO. Your LX2610 only has 19HP on the PTO. That's a pretty bug difference.
Good morning and great point Joe - Thanks!
Can you compare the impeller/fan diameter and depth of your blower and Guy’s? The impeller is the power hog in a blower, but with a small (or slower) impeller you can run out of snow volume ejected before you run out of power, causing the blower to push the extra snow like a plow. I’d guess that’s the difference rather than mid-PTO torque, given that your mid-PTO is likely geared down to drive the impeller at the same rpm (and therefore torque) as Guy’s blower.
I’m taking mine off SPRING!!!
I thought your tractor handled that snowblower really well. Even though Guy can push snow in front, it sure seems like yours moves more snow.
What I would suggest is that you buy the new LX4020 and do a comparison! 😁
I know Gord, there is always another keyboard expert out there. I still have people telling me they will never use a pull type snowblower because driving over the snow 1st packs it down. And you're right about the rear vs mid pto. In rear lower rpms @ 540 makes torque and might not shoot the snow as far as front mid-pto. Mid-pto has higher rpms and will bog down if ingesting too much sooner, BUT it shoots the snow further on average. This is where the relation between HP/torque plays out in different results.
I don't know about the snowblowers but I run a rear mounted finish mower very rare that gets bogged down going through heavy stuff. So yes I would agree the the rear PTO has more torque.
You hit the nail on the head with your torque reasoning the rear pto is running at 540 rpm by the same hp input you will get much more torque than at the 2500 mid pto
I had a John Deere 3720 with the front mount JD 60 blower. I could push snow with it like the none factory set up in your video. I think it's because the fan on the blower is too small ( not enough capacity). Meaning the tractor has enough power to handle the fan taking all it can and if you go faster it will just pile up in front. Just my opinion!
Cheers.
You have a beautiful place.
One more example of how these tractors are engineered to work with appropriately sized attachments. Our nature is always to push the limits and ideally the blower and tractor will reach their limits around the same time. The LX 3310 will likely be able to run that blower at a slightly higher speed but the next fail point will be a shear pin if the load is getting too much for the blower. You could solve that by putting higher gauge shear pin in but then the next fail point could be a broken chain or gear box and that would not be fun.
I have a Massey GC 1715 with front blower rear blade and notice the same thing in heavy snow. It will bog down and if I push it too hard it's the shear pin on the fan that tells me to slow down.
I'm guessing that Guy's blower not slowing down is because the input auger is a bit too small for the capacity of the blower. It doesn't keep up with the snow so it pushes it. If it was larger it bring the snow in and bog down the machine.
Keep up the great posts!
This has nothing to do with your blower at all. I just want to thank you for noting Buckin' Billy Ray's site. I have learned more in two months about cutting wood and he has dispelled more myths as to how you are supposed to tension a chain, how long a bar, how much power, how to sharpen especially, tooth sizes being different and why a short bar is more dangerous than a long bar.. Nice to learn from someone extremely knowledgeable. Going to save up for a saw that can take up to a 32" bar. He uses 28" and 32" a lot. Again Thanks Gordon.
I am happy it was helpful for you too Jerome! All the best!
If it can pull the RPM down I would say it's getting all the power at the PTO. Anything can be underpowered if you push it hard enough. Different snow has many different characteristics. Unless it's side by side it's really hard to tell. All beauty units! Love the Kabotas.
I'm guessing, but I'm thinking the rear PTO is designed with more torque for heavier draft applications as would be encountered with farming operations The mid PTO with higher rpms (obviously geared higher) is likely made primarily for lawn mowing; the front blower, while convenient compared to backing with a rear mounted one, reaches the upper limit of available power. Heavy draft has more affect on the higher gearing. Design pros and cons that unfortunately are learned after signing the bottom line my friend. Either way you have a good, reliable, useful machine.
Now I feel the need to know what or how all that horse power and torque gets from the rear p.t.o. all the way to the very front of his tractor?
I didn't come here for a home work assignment
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😊
What's the answer , professor?
🤔😄.
Good presentation today.
Isn't Guy's tractor an L3400 or similar? That is a larger horsepower tractor. Some would argue he could run a much wider blower than the 60" he has. There is likely something to the rear PTO having more torque at 540 rpm than a mid PTO tractor.
How's she goin'? I have always thought your blower, this one and the one on your first Kubota, were well matched to the tractor HP. Bogging down is just what happens under load like you explained. I have a rear blower and it bogs down too. I started with a front blower and it would bog down more that the reat one so I'm thinking the rear PTO has more HP out than the mid. But I have never checked to confirm this. Anyways, this was an interesting video!! Thanks and take 'er easy!!
While shopping for my first Kubota 20 years ago I saw comments from the Internet Experts stating that the matched blower I was considering tended to bog the tractor down in heavy snow. When I questioned my dealer about this his advice was - slow down.
PTO speed differences: what does is the engine tachometer RPM for the 540 rpm rear pto and the mid 2000 rpm pto? The engine will probably be turning about the same either way, hence, no difference to the engine. Drivetrain losses are another kettle of fish.
That is correct. Because the rear PTO is geared lower and runs at lower speed it does have more torque. If you look in your owners manual specs it will tell you the torque for the mid and the rear PTO. Your blower is running as designed, there is nothing wrong from what I see. Just like brush mowers on the rear PTO of these tractors don't bog the engine as much as a belly mower.
After the initial pass you do not have to take a full width cut.
I do alot of snow removal. Yep leave the snow on until it freezes to the ice.
I mean, there are people out there who can stall a walk-behind snowblower... It's all in your experience. There are "tractor drivers" and then there are "operators"
The more torque makes sense. The rear pto at 540 is like low gear in a truck, less speed, more torque.
Hi GP as a general Engineer rule when you compare higher rpm versus lower RPM you will lose torque. As is the Mid PTO runs at 2500 versus the rear at 530. It’s true with a vehicle taking of in sixth gear versus first gear. The engine want to die. Nothing wrong with your tractor and blower. My B2650 does the same thing. It’s not a race is the way I look at it. Beets the shovel. Cheers.
The rear PTO is geared differently and since it spins at a lower speed, it has more torque than the mid-PTO. If you hooked identical implements to both the mid and rear PTO, on the rear it would spin slower and have more torque. On the front (mid PTO) it would spin faster but have less torque. That’s not the whole story though. Each implement is geared differently, after the PTO input shaft. If you put a blower geared for 2000 RPM input on a 540 RPM shaft, it wouldn’t blow snow very far at all. The blowers have gear boxes or chain drives that change the rotation speed from input to the fan. The fan has an ideal speed to throw snow. If you speed up through gearing, you also loose torque.
I’ve seen front mount blowers that can push snow and not affect engine speed. In fact, I’ve seen the same 47” deere snow blower bring a 445 engine to its knees, but when mounted on a 1025R the tractor will never run out of power. Each blower has a limit to how much snow it can ingest. Each tractor has a power level it will put out. Your the blower on your LX2610 has more capacity than the power output of the tractor. The Kubota blowers appear to have a larger diameter fan and deeper fan which gives them more snow capacity. If you mount the same blower on the new LX4020 you will be able to go faster before bogging down.😊
My L4740 slows a bit with a 6 foot rear mount.
I find if the 950 cat loader don’t push the snow , time to get out 988 cat loader for push snow . I work with power and weight GP . 😊blower on loader got there own engine for blowing snow . All I know with snow is a lot off snow you need more power to move it’s for sure . In 709 go big or stay home come to snow ( white gold ) .
Sounds like the rear PTO is the ticket.
The mid PTO is a direct drive connection running at the same speed as the engine's crankshaft. The rear PTO is running at 1/5th the speed of the crankshaft. This is achieved through gearing, which as you alluded to does result in a linear increase in torque. So yes, the rear PTO delivers 5 times the torque of the mid PTO, but they both deliver the same horsepower (horsepower is a product of torque and RPM). But this is not why your machine loses speed.
Your LX2980 has a reduction gearbox mounted to it. It reduces the PTO speed and increases the torque, so your blower fan and auger are getting the higher torque that a rear PTO would deliver, it's just being reduced at the implement instead of in the transmission.
Your LX2980 has a larger fan than the blower on Guy's L3400. Plus, the L3400 has a bigger engine delivering more horsepower and more torque than the LX2610 (40% more). The LX2980 is performance matched for the LX models, but keep in mind that the LX3310 has a 4-cylinder turbo engine that delivers 25% more hp and torque than the LX2610. Does that mean that the LX2980 is too big for the LX2610...? Well, no, but the truth of the matter is that you aren't going to be able to drive that thing into deep snow at the same speed as if you had more juice. As you've discovered, the power you have dictates your ground speed.
I think thats where people make the comparison, They know how a rear mount 3PT eats up snow.. And the front mount can't eat into the snow quite as fast..
bota driver just switched from a front mount to a rear 3PT blower.. He would have some good fresh insight to the performance differences!!
GP I have the kubota B 2320 with B 2781 51 inch matched blower mid pto almost always run it at 2600 rpms even downhill in my driveway always in low gear what I think I have noticed watching your videos and I know you have a long driveway I don’t think you always use the low gear and I always notice your engine RPMs drop just my opinion I think you’re going to fast do you like your videos though thank you John
Hey thanks John! I do sometimes use medium range if there is a little snow but honestly, 90%+ of the time I am in Low range. Thanks for the good info on yours. Cheers!
One of the most INSANE things so many folks don't consider: the idea of driving backwards with a rear-mount / rear-facing blower is just absolutely mind-boggling to some (myself included). Comfort and not having a twisted back / neck after a clean-up is a small price to pay for arguably 20% less power / performance. I run a BX now with a Curtis Cab and front-blower. Is it great? Depends on the snow type. Blower powder - zero issues! Chunky wet snow - what a nightmare... but I'm still warm, zero pain, and done in an hour regardless. My buddy has a massive machine without a cab and a rear-mount blower. He's done in half the time with zero issues regardless of snow type / amount. He's also sore, stiff necked, and cold. To me (and we're all entitled to our own opinions) - I'm winning.
Siebar: at some point I 100% will be upgrading into an LX4020 and again will go with the front-mounted blower. Only different thing I'll do this time around - I'll put a hydraulic angle-blade on this time. The current rear-blade I run is a PITA to change angles and the lack of minor adjustability isn't ideal. GP has it right.
If you guys worked together he could wipe out the big long straight stretches while you get the tight spots.
Also you know Millions of us snow ski every year for hours on end in warmth with the right clothes. A back up camera and screen is like 60 bucks or mount some mirrors. It's not that hard.
@@NoName-ml5yk I’m that guy too - ski 30+ days a year in NY VT CO UT and Canada. Dress for it - totally. Even hike 4-5x a winter. Just zero desire personally to deal with cold or snow while on tractor. Headphones on warm cab get shit done! Haha
I have a rear blower and it powers out the tractor if it is overloaded the same as the front mount blowers. As for is the blower too big for the tractor. More hp just means you can drive faster. If faster is not a critical factor, your tractor is big enough. Something to think about is the dimensions of the fan. I run a Farm King, blower and it uses the same fan dimensions (22”x7”) in their 50”, 60” and 66” blowers. In theory all three snow blowers should move the same cubic feet of snow. The difference is you will need to drive faster with the smaller blower to keep it full. I would be interested in knowing the fan dimensions of Guy’s blower vs yours. I would like someone to do a test with different blowers. My understanding is that the Kubota blower uses a bigger fan (could not find the dimensions) to increase tip speed and throw the snow farther. This in theory would take more power but would be very useful for clearing a big area where you need to blow the snow in front of you. Everything is a tradeoff.
Have a Great day!