It's so refreshing to hear a content creator not blow smoke up the back of MDFCs - there are a few MDFCs which are worth running if they synergise with your deck, but for the most part, there are cheaper and better versions of the same thing which don't hit your mana base. You've got yourself a new subscriber :D
Thank you! I really appreciate it! It’s really a cautionary tale. Zendikar rising came out and everyone and their mother was replacing basics for MDFCs and their decks were bad. MH3 kinda had a similar renaissance
On Heralds Horn, it reminded me of a sort of realisation that reducers really are omly good if you are going to consistently play multiple cards in a turn that meet that criteria, and are not worried about the pips. And the conditional draws are better if you are scrying the top card anyway to increase the chances. Even my human typal deck, I have been needing to update, I improved by adding sorceries and artifacts that make tokens, which don't at all benefit from Herald's Horn. Just a manarock might be better.
I use heralds horn in my slivers deck which has like 40 sliver creatures and most of them have a generic mana cost of 1 or 2 then with moraphon this makes most my creatures completely free in a deck that’s meant to swarm and flood for big swings into victory but I would t use it in many other tribal decks
I fell for the commander fragility trap with my first deck. But as it turns out my group doesn't run nearly enough interaction, and my Bruna deck looks like it is doing nothing until it starts shooting. I like playing Azorius, but I don't like being the final boss of every game or dying on turn 4/5.
Even though Farseek is a worse than Three Visits and Nature's Lore, it's still so much better than the other ramp spells in green. Together with STEve, they're already the first 4 auto-include green ramp spells. What's harder to answer for new players is the Rampant Growth/Into the North VS Kodama's Reach/Cultivate VS Mana Dorks VS Wood Elves and Friends.
Right. Most of the time you'll have 8-12 spots for ramp so Farseek is seldom the ramp spell in question. Nice vid! Removal package alone (and when to use removal) deserves its own beginner's guide video. Curious on what you think about Excise The Imperfect and Unexplained Absence. I replaced both Generous Gift and Stroke of Midnight with those given the amount of Indestructible and/or GY Recursion there is nowadays.
I like what you're trying to say, but I feel you should explain the nuances of most of these a bit more, because none of these points are binary and there are reasons to do certain things. For example, I heavily disagree with the "better might not always be better" example because there are so many powerful lands in the format, being able to not only hit the annoying ones like chasm, but also ones that are keeping a player ahead, like coffers or cradle, is extremely important. You mentioned in that point the playgroup, but I think you should have put more emphasis on it, because yeah, it's definitely better to play stroke if your playgroup only really uses lands for fixing, but you can't expect that to be the case outside of your playgroup and how often you play with a specific set of people compared to how often you play with randoms or other friends at your lgs should definitely guide these deck building decisions. Another contentious point is the fragile commanders. Adding maybe a sentence or two about how you aren't telling people not to play it (I know that was your intention because you said cautionary tale, but some people may interpret differently), but rather to understand the risk of playing it or even letting that risk affect you to be more cautionary when playing, like waiting until you have 7 mana to play Uril so you can hold up protection, would improve that section greatly. Great video, I enjoyed it and am looking forward to future vids. Chromatic Lantern lets me tap Sorrow's Path for mana so I'm still gonna play it ;)
Yeah I agree it wasn’t super thorough. The better may not be better is more of a thought experiment to see if it makes sense for your playgroup and those two cards seemed to be a good example. The Voltron one is sus because I’m not telling people not to play it, but I am also kinda biased against it. Not really Voltron per se but more going all on your commander
Generous gift/Beast Within over stroke everyday. There's always one or more players who have a land in play that really makes you wish you had some element of land destruction. I.e. maze of ith, field of the dead etc. Having the option to hit that land is so worth it for giving them a slightly bigger body on the board.
I just need a clarification, you mention shock lands entering untapped without paying life with three visits, what causes that? Shocks have enters tapped on the card. 3:47
Sorry with 3 visits you can get shocklands and have them enter tapped for no loss or untapped for 2 life. You can get cards like cinder glade to make it untapped and without losing life. The big thing here is three visits has options that can enter untapped and farseek is always tapped.
1:18 - Hard pass. Talismans and Signets allow you gain more mana on curve and for low cost mid to late game. The hypothetical play a Signet on turn two but not being able to play a one CMC card is just silly. Like, I get its totally possible, but its no reason to completely cut Signets out. 2:53 - Farseek is fundamentally better as a spell when finding virtually any lands in numerous varieties of colors. 97% of land ramp spells have lands enter tapped, so its no excuse. Plus, its so low in CMC, so its one of the best ramp spells in the early game when everybody wants to set up. Similar to the Talisman v. Signet argument; not everybody has a one CMC spell to play after ramping. 6:36 - Relic: demands multiple legends to function. Vexing Puzzlebox: roll a D20 and see how many rotations of the table finally make it viable. (Im aware these are just the examples you presented) Commander's Sphere: Card draw. Yup. I'll take some card draw. 8:02 - Chromatic Lantern is the gold staple for those with and/or without complete manabases. Its a great mana rock to play on curve, and grants such a powerful game changing effect for nothing. Easily autoinclude in a 3+ color strategy, especially if you dont have access to strong land ramp like Esper, Grixis, etc. 10:19 - True. 10:31 - The old adage: "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" rings true here. 12:28 - Herald's Horn does wonders in a tribal strategy that could not only use the static discount, but also capitalize on builds that run many of that creature. Decks that run the "you can play any number of this creature" cards play this so you can not only play multiple of said creature, but also increase your odds of swiping an extra card from the top so you arent left with a "dead" draw. Herald's Horn does great work in my Ur-Dragon list that plays over 36 creatures. Well, that, and I could just use the discount on big dragons... 17:38 - Very niche CEDH cards seem to be "bad" in casual. I wont even say its bad, as in, not good, but rather, it leaves a bad taste in the opponent's mouth when you sit down for a game and lose to Thoracle by turn 5. Have a rule 0 chat regarding free spells, super fast mana, etc. 19:19 - monolithing commander decks are the pillars of EDH. I dont know anyone at my locals or any other shop in a 30 radius of me, who doesn't play a commander deck that doesn't play a deck whose strategy benefits without the commander in play. If you play such a deck, play subsequent protection and interaction. It's why you play magic to begin with...
1. I don’t get it? Talismans and signets functionally do the same effect (rock t2 ideally), just one is better as you have immediate access to colorless and extra mana. The hypothetical works for both, just with talismans working better as if you T1, sol ring, then a rock, the talisman offers 1 mana to cantrip/any one mana thing with the signet is it. 2. If you are already in green, it still gives you the option where farseek doesn’t give the option to enter untapped. If you are getting a triome, same effect, but if you are getting a dual, you can have it enter untapped. Maybe not the 1 mana effect, but it can still fix your colors instantly, or you ramp for basically 1 mana as you can gain the untapped land. 3. They were more examples as better 3 cmc rocks that have more upside than getting rid of the rock. Skyclave relic or really any 3 mana rock that has an added benefit will be better for it in most decks. It can help in a pinch, but you typically don’t want to get rid of your stuff unless you have to. 4. It’s still a fine card, but definitely not an auto included. Sure it’s good for some decks, but generally, if you don’t have access to those colors, like in Esper or whatever, you still have ways around it in those color, like more draw effects and whatnot. And that’s still assuming, like you said, you have an incomplete mana base. Assuming you have a good mana base, you’ll be alright. 5. Yeah lol 6. This point was more a thought experiment of what is better/what is realistic for play groups and their own inner workings. 7. Ur dragon is a good example because everything is already discounted, so it could allow you to play multiple lower cmc dragons in a turn since the rate is not 2 off. If ur dragon wasn’t the commander, the 6 you would have paid for two 5 mana dragons is now just one dragon discounted and probably not enough left to play 2 creatures. It’s not a dead draw per se, but more just a 1/3 chance you get the extra draw. If your dragon deck is stompy and faster like most, the game is over T9, which is 5 potential draws, with you drawing a dragon 2/5 of them. Not bad but no guarantee. 8. I don’t think that any card is “bad” as in unplayable (well most but you get it), but underperforming in comparison to what it can do in its proper setting. Questing beast is a great card and could reasonably work well in any green deck, but in elf tribal, it’s probably better just to run another elf over it. 9. That’s not the point I was trying to make. The point was that if you go all in on a commander, your deck will not function without it, and your opponents know it. Your deck should be able to win without your commander. That’s more or less the point. Uril is a deck example where the deck COULD win without the commander, but it’s not likely to win without the commander. The point being that you don’t want to go 100% in on your commander because if/when it dies, so does your game. The issue with protection is that eventually, you’ll run out of it, you won’t have the correct type (I make him indestructible but you exile it), or you won’t have the mana up to make sure it stays, and if you keep the mana, you aren’t progressing your board at the rate others are. Whew! Long comment! I appreciate you taking the time to post what you think!
@@poppmagic why not both and still save a ton of money? Also here in europe lantern is max 2 euro so roughly 2.10 US, might also explain the difference
I guess that’s more what your budget looks like. I try to keep decks around a $400~ mark because I don’t like to have like $5000 decks because that’s just unrealistic imo and for the power level for my group, $400~ is the sweet spot, unless it’s mono color or a general cheap tribe
What's insane is that I've become so confident in my mana base when deck building that I generally don't run Mana rocks. I absolutely don't run Sol Ring and I can't remember the last time I used a Chromatic Lantern, Signets, or Talismans.
I wonder how they would function side by side. It would be cool to go back to old ways and make a deck that has rocks and ramp and a lesser mana base and compare and contrast. I prefer to have land ramp because rocks can just get wiped incidentally but artifact decks and 4C+ still need more fixing
@poppmagic my issue with rocks is strictly the commitment. I'd rather focus on having a sufficient land base, including all my duals, shocks, etc. I find in my playgroups that I am usually faster at getting my required mana for my commander and interactions. I think rocks are most useful if you're running a 4-5 color range.
Good video in general. I especially appreciate, as a cEDH player, the part about cEDH cards not automatically being good in more casual EDH. The most difficult part of leaping the chasm from high-power EDH to cEDH, is understanding *why* certain cards are in decks. Just seeing certain cards in a lot of lists (perfect example when I started is Into the Roil) and not understanding why they are so strong (in this case because the decks were wanting to bounce their own Dockside (prior to many stronger bounce spells being printed)) could easily lead to bad deck-building decisions based on reverse engineering the card choices without the requisite reasoning. However, as a nitpick, I would note that Minor Misstep is absolutely not a cEDH all-star. I think that perhaps you were thinking of Mental Misstep, which is a true staple. Minor Misstep barely sees fringe/niche play, to the point where I can't name a single deck that is likely to run Minor Misstep off the top of my head.
Yeah I think I got the missteps mistaken lol. Either way, both good in C imo. It’s not even CEDH, but more about staples. Like some people just add cards to their deck because it’s in the color. What blue deck doesn’t want cyc rift? Most do but I want to encourage people to make the evaluation other than knowing it’s good
@poppmagic While again I will push back strongly on the Minor Misstep bit, I completely agree with the overarching message. It's tough in a singleton format, because the gulf between Magic players and Magic deck brewers is dramatically amplified. In Commander, if you just want to play Magic, you can open a precon and sit down with other precon players. But if you want to see successful innovations that result in wins, you have to digest a lot more theory and understand what goes into a ton more card choices than in a 60-card four-of format. Much easier to net-deck and just *play* when there is a magnitude less nuance that goes into the architecture of the deck. So helping interested parties to start peeking behind the curtain and understanding important principles and get to the point where they are no longer governing their card choices by rules of thumb (I need 37 land, 8 ramp spells, 5 removal spells, or whatever) and can successfully apply their own creativity is doing the lord's work, so to speak.
@SenorCoupon theory is hard for newer players just like the intricacies of any hobby is difficult for people just starting. Guides and their nuances are hard. I think lands are the hardest for new people. Add 36 lands and call it a day is what most do, but don’t think “what’s my curve like? Average cmc? How accessible is ramp? How accessible is fixing? What is the mana base I need to be consistent/competitive with my play group?” Even veteran players can struggle. I do love cracking a precon and just seeing what happens though too! I think balance is really underrated in commander, especially with decks that are a “7”
I feel like I have to push back about the MDFC thing. While yes, the tapped ones do kinda stink on their land half, the untapped ones you can pay 3 life for are AMAZING, and absolutely deserves spots over the singular basics they replace. *Especially* when you have ones that are removal on their front half, like Sink into Stupor, Fell the Profane, or even Sundering Eruption. I find that a one-time cost of 3 life is not going to make a difference in 90% of games (since either you still win, or just get overkilled by a game-ending play so hard 3 life couldn’t have saved you), whereas being able to remove key pieces, draw cards, or even refilling your board off these cards can really matter. Not to mention, people play Shock and Pain Lands all the time, and no one seems to bat an eye at either of those these days. Also, with regards to mana dorks, the 1-drop ones like Llanowar Elves are often some of the only accessible ramp at that cost and relative volume, and can’t be easily replaced aside from expensive 0-cost artifacts or ritual-style effects. So decks with a 3 Mana Value Commander or huge volume of impactful spells at that cost would still want them, even in spite of the risks, as can any deck that can eventually weapons their dorks in the late game like Raggadragga, Goreguts Boss lists, or the Elf decks you’ve mentioned. Yes, they’re less safe than lands or even artifacts, but they *absolutely* should still count towards a ramp package.
The thing I wanted to emphasize about the MDFCs is you don’t want all your lands to enter tapped or have to lose life for them. The thing with shock lands are a bit rough because you can fetch them out easier and they synergies with more. Stupor and profane are good, but I wanted to emphasize that you shouldn’t run like mid cards just because they have a land on the back. For the Llanowar, it’s true that it’s the cheapest ramp, but you shouldn’t cut lands just because of the fragility. It’s more of a high risk high reward, so going the safer route is better imo
@poppmagic yeah, but the only time I play them as lands is like turns 1-3 when I have no other option and the rest of my hand is gas. I pulled bounce lands out of everything like 2 years ago but I'm thinking I might run them again to get my boseiju back lol
So it's actually okay to build your deck around your commander if you have good removal pieces and protection spells. I have all kinds of decks that function differently but work with both methods, using the commander to further the deck theme, or building the deck around the commander. All you need to make sure is that your deck can still properly function without your commander out. If it can't, put in more synergistic cards and protection spells. When it comes to Uril the Miststalker, some good cards to add would be Champion of the Flame, Gunner Conscript and possibly Valduk, Keeper of the Flame and Wyleth, Soul of Steel in case your commander gets killed. They act as backups for your commander.
You sure can! There’s just some issues with inevitability where eventually, you’ll run out of cards/mana to constantly protect you commander and in the process, you are still losing progress because instead of progressing your board more, you hold up protection. I think it’s really important to make sure that you can win without your head honcho like you said. It’s tough to find a balance and a lot of decks have difficulty with it
I have built a lot of tribal decks over the years. Some good some bad. Herald's horn has only ever been decent in Mabel boros mice because that deck needs every crumb of card advantage. Plus being able to save 2 generic on 2 mice that I can then put towards the actually good boros equipment stuff is a godsend xD
Heralds horn: it takes casting three of that creature type to break even on the mana spent (even though you still have that tempo loss). And tribal decks will still have less than 50 percent (usually 30) of a chance that the top card is one. I really like your inclusions and reasonings, but it might be good to note that even some of these strictly worse cards DO sometimes have a home (even commanders sphere)
Yeah none of the cards are bad imo. I run commander sphere in my 4C breya artifact deck because I can recur it and loop a draw engine kinda. Plus it lets me dig one deeper for combo pieces later. It’s not a bad card but you probs don’t need it in the new 3C+ precon WOTC drops multiple times a year
I think Herald's Horn has a place in kindred builds that need a lot of support. Elves are elves. Dragons don't need help. Zombies accomplish both these effects with graveyard and the creatures themselves, humans have plenty of support with each other, angels are their own threat, and goblins you want more goblins. I do, however, run one in my Orzhov Cleric deck; that particular one has a hard time fitting in all the cleric creatures, spot removal, ramp, and card draw in it. Being able to fit what is de facto ramp and card advantage on one card does have advantages. That said, it's the only kindred I'd consider running one in. So it reverse scales, I guess? A weak kindred synergy likes this card, but strong kindred types do not.
Well, "Commander Fragility" has actually been a thing happening to me with trying to brew up my first five-color and stuck in theory crafting mode. Especially when the part about the commander enhancing and/or highlighting what my deck is doing also running into conflict of not wanting my deck to come off as a "99/98-card deck with bonus card(s)" build from trying so hard to not be either over-reliant on them or too eager to bring them out asap. :c
You just gotta make sure you don’t win with that card specifically. I have 5C elemental tribal and horde of notions as the commander. He’s more utility than wincon
@@poppmagic Yeah, I ended up switching from Jegantha to Horde of Notions for my commander build still in its WIP state. Along with almost recovering from being sad about not having Jegantha as a commander to the point that I was hyping myself up with doing a custom recreation of the Japan Showcase card layout (though I didn't use the "Beleren" font to play it safe) for an alt skin of Jegantha with my "QT/fren style" doodle of Nokotan.
@@poppmagic Thanks and I hope to be able to find fun with Horde of Notions as my commander and Jegantha in the 99 (because there are cards, that happen to have duplicate mana pips in their "main" mana costs, I still enjoy or want to run).
The signet just leaves you with less mana lol. The best would be land, sol ring, talisman, into some 1 mana spell/cantrip. You just lose that with the signers
@@poppmagicI get that but in your example you said something like play a sol ring with your mana rock. Anyway, I always run both in 2 color decks and only in 3 or more colors I use less signets. I also run Farseek and in some decks commander sphere. I don't have to win t3 and the cards still offer enough to run at casual tables
The cards I listed aren’t bad, there can just be better options, and if the cards you are using still work for your playgroup, then there’s nothing wrong with it !
The way to look at mdfcs s to increase ypur land count while doing other stuff, not to decrease land count to do other stuff. 36 Lands + 3-4 MDFCs has proven a decent rule of thumb for solid mana to start with before testing the deck.
Since I mostly theory craft budget decks, alot of the early tips could just be people being restrained by the price also MDFCs are good just that cutting a full land for one is bad, the -3 life to be untapped lands are straight upgrades. Mana dorks are ramp, its just more important to have lands instead of ramp. If you build around your commander and it IS the win con you need to run PROTECTION, blue is best because counterspells are removal + protection in one. But otherwise protection is important. Otherwise run backup plans. Cards similar to your commander.
It depends. The mdfc was just because you can does not mean you should. The mana dorks are ramp, but do not replace lands and are higher risk high reward because of how easy they are to stop. The issue was building around the commander is eventually, you’ll either run out of protection or you’ll run out of mana to keep it protected
I built a Hinata spell Slinger, and a pantlaza blink qnd burn deck and Chromatic lantern is the star in both. Basically makes it so i can just cast whatever and even use fetch lands to counter spells and such.
Spell slinger makes sense because all rituals make red mana, so being able to tap for other color good, but if you have enough duals, it should be alright. Honestly for pantlaza you probs don’t need it. You could just run a hard land ramp spell or if you say you have fetches, then your mana base should be good enough where you don’t need it. Decks without green can kinda get a pass but you should have everything you need. Natures lore/three visits will get you any shock/triome/fetchable duel and untapped if you need and it comes down a turn sooner.
@@poppmagic I hear you, I do need to clean up the mana base and invest in some better ramp spells for Pantlaza, but it helps a ton with all of the blink spells I'm playing in it. It's saved me a few times when I needed a white to cast ephemerate or juticiar's portal to save Pantlaza and get something from discover. I'll definitely look into a three visits and price some of the cheaper duals.
I'm sure you will get a lot of pushback in MDFCs, but basically I agree. There are some that rise to a level where having a couple of them can be a good thing, but most people are clearly wildly uninformed about mana base in general... I think with respect to some of the other specific cards, a lot of the time if you are going to run Nature's Lore, you wouldn't run Farseek INSTEAD, you would run BOTH OF THEM. I mean, it is a 100 card deck, you are likely to see, maybe, 25% of your library in most games. If you want something, do it FOUR TIMES. Likewise with things like Generous Gift, I agree Stroke of Midnight is probably a better card choice, but you're going to play with both! Same with mana rocks, and frankly I'm not as down on the old Sphere as you are. MANY times rocks that you drop early become superfluous 5 turns later, being able to turn them into card draw is actually not bad! Relic of Legends is a pretty good rock, I will pick it ahead of Commander's Sphere probably in MANY decks, but if you need 3-mana rocks, you can probably use both, and Chromatic Lantern too! Anyway, I'm more partial to the 2-mana rocks in general, and they're really a different category of thing. Good video.
You did mention about budget in the beginning, but I do feel like that probably plays the biggest part if your first card picks. 1. The amount of players playing farseek over nature’s lore is only 2% with far seem seeing 34% and natures lore at 32%. But three visits, being tripe or more in price only see 25% being exactly as good as nature’s lore. I also want to make an argument for 5c decks where far seek can grab something that produces 2 colors other than green, as you already have green if you can cast three visits, but realistically, most 5c decks or heavy on green cards any way, as a chunk of them will be ramp and dorks. 2. Relic of legends is likely to be the very best of the 3 MV rocks for sure. Though I think one of the scary things about these is how bad it feels when they are blown up. Commanders sphere doesn’t negate this completely but enabling it to draw you the card instead is pretty close. Admittedly, however, I don’t think this is why people are playing this, as there arnt as many players playing darksteel ingot or skyclave relic (a contender imo for best 3mv rock) 3. chromatic lantern is probably the worst rock. If it’s there for mana fixing, then your deck is in trouble every game you don’t draw this. The only imaginable reason I can think of to run this is if you want to turn your brain off when picking spells to cast. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But then you probably don’t need the advice of this video. 4. I guess I don’t see what you see when it comes to MDFCs. I don’t see players running more than 6 and almost always less than 4. They almost always cut at a rate of 1mdfc=0.5 lands. And it’s true that my experiences don’t mean this is reality but I’m seeing this in my play groups, online with deck builds on midfield and edhrec, as well as huge commander content creators in the TH-cam space. 5. I feel like I’ve experienced what you have when it comes to generous gift style cards. I’m always hitting a land or a creature with it. Some times a land, absolutely, but much less. But I can assure you, I’ve never had a problem dealing with a 3/3 that would have been easier to deal with if it were a 1/1. I think maybe we could do a better job of adding threats in a way that encourage us to hit more lands with these cards as we are so limited on land type removal and have so much removal for other permanents. 6. I agree with all of this in Herald’s Horn, but I want to ask, assuming it’s dropped on turn 3, how much mana would this have to save you for it to be worth it for 3 mana? How mana cards would it have to draw you to be worth it? How much combined? If it saved me 6 mana and drew me 4 cards, it probably worth it? 7. Mana dorks are the cheapest most explosive ramp we can do. It is indeed the most vulnerable. Rocks are next up for being explosive for mana production but, although less vulnerable than dorks, still painful to loses ( see my comments about commanders sphere). Land ramp, when ever possible (any time you’re in green) is almost always better because so few people play interaction for lands (see my comments about generous gift). Always go land ramp when you can, rocks when you can or need more, then dorks if it’s a theme like elves or creature synergies. Unless it’s bird. It’s never a bad time to play birds 😅 8. For ANY deck, it should be built in a way that it could with without its commander. For Voltron decks, they are generally regarded as the worst themes, despite them being, in my opinion, the most fun. I tend to build voltrons around commanders I can cheat in so how so if they get blown up, it doesn’t put me 2 turns behind. Great video, I think I learned a few things. Thanks for the up load and thanks for the offer comment our opinions 😊
I add chromatic lantern to every 4c or 5c deck, I know the card isn't good and that you don't need it to fix mana. But what it does for me is save brainspace, the games where I have chromatic lantern I don't have to think about how I tap my mana and that little amount of brainspace you save every time accumulates quickly
Wow thanks for the biggest comment I think I’ve gotten so far! 1. The budget is good because the cards that were once scarce are now in abundance. Three visits was like $50 prior to commander legends. I think you make a fair point of being to tutor up other colors if need be, but I feel like being able to grab a green triome and still have the option to the other two colors with it is fine. You also gotta be a bit careful about some of the percentages you see online. Again three visits wasn’t available in decks prior to a few years ago, so it would have a lower percentage. 2. Relic is the the best imo. I guess I can see your point if a feels less when it blows up, but I think the upside of the others overcomes the downside of them blowing up. 3. I think lantern is fine in 4+ decks, but it’s usually workable if you have good ramp and mana. 4. Maybe the MDFC issue was happening more around my local play groups. I remember seeing a lot of lists online and seeing them mashed with everyone they can. If you have one or two, sure, but don’t cut for the sake. 5. The two were more of a thought experiment more than a critique, but i do think it’s an important to have for what makes sense to your play groups. 6. Horn is the best example I think. I would say if it can reliably do a thing, then sure. I think getting that kind of value like you mentioned is worth it, but I think it’s unlikely. I’d say in an average game, you reduce like 4 and maybe draw one? Still awkward and I prefer to work in guarantees. 7. I think it’s a scenario of high risk high reward. It makes sense like you said in elf decks or with ragadragga, but for like your average deck, it’s probably just better for hard lands or rocks. It can even negatively affect decks like Atla palani or cascade decks. 8. Voltron is hard. Mono white Nahiri equipment is probs one of the better once’s since it doesn’t matter if the token does. Thanks for checking out the channel man!
@zenithquasar4319 try moving your lands around in an order that makes it easier. Lands that tap for everything go in one, 3 color in another, duals in one, and mono in the last. It’s easier to just go from one pile to the next and any real mana colors you need to worry about is solved after the mono pile
@ admittedly, I do the same. I’m not always super sweaty commander player and always min maxing decks. In fact I built an entire deck for when I want to turn my brain off. Ghalta. Just play big green dudes and turn them side ways. What ever happens happens 😂
Generous Gift and the like just are strictly better. The card may just be as functional as Stroke of midnight but the alternative of straight losing to Field of the Dead or having the ability to turn off a players mana base is always better. If a player isnt at least considering lands as targets, then I think that's on them. Even at an ultra casual table, non basic lands should be fair game.
That’s why I like the thought experiment. People just sleep them in the deck and call it a day when it should be reevaluated for your play group. Do they have problematic lands? How many are worth it to run this over stroke? Would it be better to run stroke and a just more strip line effects? This may be an awkward example of it but just because there is upside does not always translate to being functionally better
Love the video but I have to nitpick the voltron example. While I totally agree with the uril being bad i think making your commander your one thing is totally viable. But when you do just make sure you have heavy layers of protection and backup plans. For an example, my main voltron deck is my geist if saint traft deck. Unlike uril I dont have to fear countermagic as much because he only costs 3 mana and i uave some eay to get jim out as early as t2 but usually hea down t3. The hexproof makes sure i dont have ti fear a single swords. From there my fesr extends ourely to edicts and boardwipes which i have many ways of dodging, stopping, or recivering from. I run a bunch of creatures that orovide a littke value but mostly eant to he sacrificed to edicts, a bunch o countermagic, auras with totem armor, and mantle ot the ancients and bruna, light of alabaster to get back all my auras if I do get hit. Its also a deck fast enough that sometimes i can can kill people before having to worry about a boardwipe from them. (In fact ive discovered one weakness is the occasional losing to an opponents larger boardstate since my deck is so focused on killing people it doesn't run a whole lot of removal, just one tutorable piece, 2 flexible spot removal and 2 boardwipes. The rest are defensive countermagic) Otherwise it's honestly one of the strongest decks I've ever made. I stopped playing it because its often too strong. I had a much higher than 25% winrate with it. So yeah voltron is great just be careful in how you build it.
THANK YOU someone not "MDFCS ARE AMAZING" I'm so tired of these cards, I'm not paying 3 life for a mono color land and doesn't do anything for coming in tapped, and as a Boros player....... they suck, except like...3..... and even then I don't think I'd run them. Edit: Respectfully disagree, Commander Sphere is a nice free draw in boros😅 😅😅😅
I’m not saying they are bad, but like not every deck really needs them imo. A lot of people say they are the best and they are good, but not game changing
@@SabreAran they are good bascially because you have the choice between a mid effect and an land. Just the option makes them good, but like you said, only a handful are good. I just dont want people to jam random mdfc in their deck just because they can
@poppmagic I guess. Technically I should love these these cause I like to prep for any scenario (I run White/red counters ina equipment deck with Sunforger! Im totally not paranoid I wasn't taught by blue players why you ask? >.> lol) just aside I I have had to teach myself the value of non basics and what do they offer to make them worth coming in tapped, and none of the lands except the duel land is worth it, like I very much might grab the Boros one cause I can use both sides, but a mono color tapped with nothing else to offer other then a mid effect on the other side just seems kinda blah. They seem to be very late game kinda plays too, or at least the early ones do, I kinda see them as a limited format kinda card, but not commander or legacy were you can fix what you need or get a card that could do what the MDFC does but better. Maybe I came off too hot but I am definitely tired of hearing these card are must haves. Maybe if they make more in the future they might make some I might like cause I DO like the concept. Lol
@SabreAran I think so long as they make sense or are in theme, go for it. Like I have a Dr li energy deck and I have 2 mdfcs that both care about energy. So long as there’s no overkill you’ll be alright
This is THE video I wish I had 1 year ago when I started playing Commander. There's so much condensed and practical knowledge it's amazing.
Thanks man much appreciated!
It's so refreshing to hear a content creator not blow smoke up the back of MDFCs - there are a few MDFCs which are worth running if they synergise with your deck, but for the most part, there are cheaper and better versions of the same thing which don't hit your mana base. You've got yourself a new subscriber :D
Thank you! I really appreciate it! It’s really a cautionary tale. Zendikar rising came out and everyone and their mother was replacing basics for MDFCs and their decks were bad. MH3 kinda had a similar renaissance
The cheaper and better options aren't also lands. You're paying one extra Mana for the flexibility/opportunity cost.
That’s basically why modal spells are good. You pay a bit more for the flexibility
@jumpsteady1777 yeah the new ones are better but i just wanted to emphasize that just because you can, you should
On Heralds Horn, it reminded me of a sort of realisation that reducers really are omly good if you are going to consistently play multiple cards in a turn that meet that criteria, and are not worried about the pips. And the conditional draws are better if you are scrying the top card anyway to increase the chances.
Even my human typal deck, I have been needing to update, I improved by adding sorceries and artifacts that make tokens, which don't at all benefit from Herald's Horn. Just a manarock might be better.
It’s probs big consistent enough imo. If they are low enough cmc, the cost reduction doesn’t really matter. Maybe a mana rock or card draw is good
I use heralds horn in my slivers deck which has like 40 sliver creatures and most of them have a generic mana cost of 1 or 2 then with moraphon this makes most my creatures completely free in a deck that’s meant to swarm and flood for big swings into victory but I would t use it in many other tribal decks
@REALCreature that’s a good example where it makes sense because if you have no colors from your commander and just reducing them to free, that’s good
I fell for the commander fragility trap with my first deck. But as it turns out my group doesn't run nearly enough interaction, and my Bruna deck looks like it is doing nothing until it starts shooting. I like playing Azorius, but I don't like being the final boss of every game or dying on turn 4/5.
Might have to adjust to playgroups. 4/5 is pretty quick for a game to end in. Maybe add a bit more counters/interaction?
Nice overview. Thanks. Could you increase your audio volume?
Noted!
Even though Farseek is a worse than Three Visits and Nature's Lore, it's still so much better than the other ramp spells in green. Together with STEve, they're already the first 4 auto-include green ramp spells. What's harder to answer for new players is the Rampant Growth/Into the North VS Kodama's Reach/Cultivate VS Mana Dorks VS Wood Elves and Friends.
It’s not a bad card at all, but if given the choice, natures lore>farseek>other ramp
Right. Most of the time you'll have 8-12 spots for ramp so Farseek is seldom the ramp spell in question. Nice vid! Removal package alone (and when to use removal) deserves its own beginner's guide video. Curious on what you think about Excise The Imperfect and Unexplained Absence. I replaced both Generous Gift and Stroke of Midnight with those given the amount of Indestructible and/or GY Recursion there is nowadays.
@justintolentino9222 both are good. I prefer excise because it seems like the crack back is a little less and a bit easier to cast imo
I like what you're trying to say, but I feel you should explain the nuances of most of these a bit more, because none of these points are binary and there are reasons to do certain things. For example, I heavily disagree with the "better might not always be better" example because there are so many powerful lands in the format, being able to not only hit the annoying ones like chasm, but also ones that are keeping a player ahead, like coffers or cradle, is extremely important. You mentioned in that point the playgroup, but I think you should have put more emphasis on it, because yeah, it's definitely better to play stroke if your playgroup only really uses lands for fixing, but you can't expect that to be the case outside of your playgroup and how often you play with a specific set of people compared to how often you play with randoms or other friends at your lgs should definitely guide these deck building decisions. Another contentious point is the fragile commanders. Adding maybe a sentence or two about how you aren't telling people not to play it (I know that was your intention because you said cautionary tale, but some people may interpret differently), but rather to understand the risk of playing it or even letting that risk affect you to be more cautionary when playing, like waiting until you have 7 mana to play Uril so you can hold up protection, would improve that section greatly.
Great video, I enjoyed it and am looking forward to future vids. Chromatic Lantern lets me tap Sorrow's Path for mana so I'm still gonna play it ;)
Yeah I agree it wasn’t super thorough. The better may not be better is more of a thought experiment to see if it makes sense for your playgroup and those two cards seemed to be a good example. The Voltron one is sus because I’m not telling people not to play it, but I am also kinda biased against it. Not really Voltron per se but more going all on your commander
Generous gift/Beast Within over stroke everyday. There's always one or more players who have a land in play that really makes you wish you had some element of land destruction. I.e. maze of ith, field of the dead etc. Having the option to hit that land is so worth it for giving them a slightly bigger body on the board.
Yeah it’s more of a thought experiment to help gain perspective on playgroup/actual need. I run beast
@@poppmagic yeah agreed. I commented before hearing the rest of your bit hahah
@coachdonmez haha all good I’m not 100% sure what I said in the vid lol
I just need a clarification, you mention shock lands entering untapped without paying life with three visits, what causes that? Shocks have enters tapped on the card. 3:47
Sorry with 3 visits you can get shocklands and have them enter tapped for no loss or untapped for 2 life. You can get cards like cinder glade to make it untapped and without losing life. The big thing here is three visits has options that can enter untapped and farseek is always tapped.
1:18 - Hard pass. Talismans and Signets allow you gain more mana on curve and for low cost mid to late game. The hypothetical play a Signet on turn two but not being able to play a one CMC card is just silly. Like, I get its totally possible, but its no reason to completely cut Signets out.
2:53 - Farseek is fundamentally better as a spell when finding virtually any lands in numerous varieties of colors. 97% of land ramp spells have lands enter tapped, so its no excuse. Plus, its so low in CMC, so its one of the best ramp spells in the early game when everybody wants to set up. Similar to the Talisman v. Signet argument; not everybody has a one CMC spell to play after ramping.
6:36 - Relic: demands multiple legends to function.
Vexing Puzzlebox: roll a D20 and see how many rotations of the table finally make it viable. (Im aware these are just the examples you presented)
Commander's Sphere: Card draw. Yup. I'll take some card draw.
8:02 - Chromatic Lantern is the gold staple for those with and/or without complete manabases. Its a great mana rock to play on curve, and grants such a powerful game changing effect for nothing. Easily autoinclude in a 3+ color strategy, especially if you dont have access to strong land ramp like Esper, Grixis, etc.
10:19 - True.
10:31 - The old adage: "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" rings true here.
12:28 - Herald's Horn does wonders in a tribal strategy that could not only use the static discount, but also capitalize on builds that run many of that creature. Decks that run the "you can play any number of this creature" cards play this so you can not only play multiple of said creature, but also increase your odds of swiping an extra card from the top so you arent left with a "dead" draw. Herald's Horn does great work in my Ur-Dragon list that plays over 36 creatures. Well, that, and I could just use the discount on big dragons...
17:38 - Very niche CEDH cards seem to be "bad" in casual. I wont even say its bad, as in, not good, but rather, it leaves a bad taste in the opponent's mouth when you sit down for a game and lose to Thoracle by turn 5. Have a rule 0 chat regarding free spells, super fast mana, etc.
19:19 - monolithing commander decks are the pillars of EDH. I dont know anyone at my locals or any other shop in a 30 radius of me, who doesn't play a commander deck that doesn't play a deck whose strategy benefits without the commander in play. If you play such a deck, play subsequent protection and interaction. It's why you play magic to begin with...
1. I don’t get it? Talismans and signets functionally do the same effect (rock t2 ideally), just one is better as you have immediate access to colorless and extra mana. The hypothetical works for both, just with talismans working better as if you T1, sol ring, then a rock, the talisman offers 1 mana to cantrip/any one mana thing with the signet is it.
2. If you are already in green, it still gives you the option where farseek doesn’t give the option to enter untapped. If you are getting a triome, same effect, but if you are getting a dual, you can have it enter untapped. Maybe not the 1 mana effect, but it can still fix your colors instantly, or you ramp for basically 1 mana as you can gain the untapped land.
3. They were more examples as better 3 cmc rocks that have more upside than getting rid of the rock. Skyclave relic or really any 3 mana rock that has an added benefit will be better for it in most decks. It can help in a pinch, but you typically don’t want to get rid of your stuff unless you have to.
4. It’s still a fine card, but definitely not an auto included. Sure it’s good for some decks, but generally, if you don’t have access to those colors, like in Esper or whatever, you still have ways around it in those color, like more draw effects and whatnot. And that’s still assuming, like you said, you have an incomplete mana base. Assuming you have a good mana base, you’ll be alright.
5. Yeah lol
6. This point was more a thought experiment of what is better/what is realistic for play groups and their own inner workings.
7. Ur dragon is a good example because everything is already discounted, so it could allow you to play multiple lower cmc dragons in a turn since the rate is not 2 off. If ur dragon wasn’t the commander, the 6 you would have paid for two 5 mana dragons is now just one dragon discounted and probably not enough left to play 2 creatures. It’s not a dead draw per se, but more just a 1/3 chance you get the extra draw. If your dragon deck is stompy and faster like most, the game is over T9, which is 5 potential draws, with you drawing a dragon 2/5 of them. Not bad but no guarantee.
8. I don’t think that any card is “bad” as in unplayable (well most but you get it), but underperforming in comparison to what it can do in its proper setting. Questing beast is a great card and could reasonably work well in any green deck, but in elf tribal, it’s probably better just to run another elf over it.
9. That’s not the point I was trying to make. The point was that if you go all in on a commander, your deck will not function without it, and your opponents know it. Your deck should be able to win without your commander. That’s more or less the point. Uril is a deck example where the deck COULD win without the commander, but it’s not likely to win without the commander. The point being that you don’t want to go 100% in on your commander because if/when it dies, so does your game. The issue with protection is that eventually, you’ll run out of it, you won’t have the correct type (I make him indestructible but you exile it), or you won’t have the mana up to make sure it stays, and if you keep the mana, you aren’t progressing your board at the rate others are.
Whew! Long comment! I appreciate you taking the time to post what you think!
Chromatic Lantern - $0.20
Shock Lands - $10-$20 a land
……..
Chromatic is like $4~ and it’s not necessarily shocklands, but better fixing. You can get cheap, fetchable duals like canopy vista and cinder glade
@@poppmagic why not both and still save a ton of money?
Also here in europe lantern is max 2 euro so roughly 2.10 US, might also explain the difference
Bit of a false equivalency ngl
I guess that’s more what your budget looks like. I try to keep decks around a $400~ mark because I don’t like to have like $5000 decks because that’s just unrealistic imo and for the power level for my group, $400~ is the sweet spot, unless it’s mono color or a general cheap tribe
What's insane is that I've become so confident in my mana base when deck building that I generally don't run Mana rocks. I absolutely don't run Sol Ring and I can't remember the last time I used a Chromatic Lantern, Signets, or Talismans.
I wonder how they would function side by side. It would be cool to go back to old ways and make a deck that has rocks and ramp and a lesser mana base and compare and contrast.
I prefer to have land ramp because rocks can just get wiped incidentally but artifact decks and 4C+ still need more fixing
@poppmagic my issue with rocks is strictly the commitment. I'd rather focus on having a sufficient land base, including all my duals, shocks, etc. I find in my playgroups that I am usually faster at getting my required mana for my commander and interactions. I think rocks are most useful if you're running a 4-5 color range.
@MooreThanaPodcast hard agree. I think the biggest thing is do what makes most sense in your playgroup
oooo I like that Relic of Legends.
Good video in general. I especially appreciate, as a cEDH player, the part about cEDH cards not automatically being good in more casual EDH. The most difficult part of leaping the chasm from high-power EDH to cEDH, is understanding *why* certain cards are in decks. Just seeing certain cards in a lot of lists (perfect example when I started is Into the Roil) and not understanding why they are so strong (in this case because the decks were wanting to bounce their own Dockside (prior to many stronger bounce spells being printed)) could easily lead to bad deck-building decisions based on reverse engineering the card choices without the requisite reasoning.
However, as a nitpick, I would note that Minor Misstep is absolutely not a cEDH all-star. I think that perhaps you were thinking of Mental Misstep, which is a true staple. Minor Misstep barely sees fringe/niche play, to the point where I can't name a single deck that is likely to run Minor Misstep off the top of my head.
Yeah I think I got the missteps mistaken lol. Either way, both good in C imo. It’s not even CEDH, but more about staples. Like some people just add cards to their deck because it’s in the color. What blue deck doesn’t want cyc rift? Most do but I want to encourage people to make the evaluation other than knowing it’s good
@poppmagic While again I will push back strongly on the Minor Misstep bit, I completely agree with the overarching message. It's tough in a singleton format, because the gulf between Magic players and Magic deck brewers is dramatically amplified. In Commander, if you just want to play Magic, you can open a precon and sit down with other precon players. But if you want to see successful innovations that result in wins, you have to digest a lot more theory and understand what goes into a ton more card choices than in a 60-card four-of format. Much easier to net-deck and just *play* when there is a magnitude less nuance that goes into the architecture of the deck. So helping interested parties to start peeking behind the curtain and understanding important principles and get to the point where they are no longer governing their card choices by rules of thumb (I need 37 land, 8 ramp spells, 5 removal spells, or whatever) and can successfully apply their own creativity is doing the lord's work, so to speak.
@SenorCoupon theory is hard for newer players just like the intricacies of any hobby is difficult for people just starting. Guides and their nuances are hard. I think lands are the hardest for new people. Add 36 lands and call it a day is what most do, but don’t think “what’s my curve like? Average cmc? How accessible is ramp? How accessible is fixing? What is the mana base I need to be consistent/competitive with my play group?” Even veteran players can struggle. I do love cracking a precon and just seeing what happens though too! I think balance is really underrated in commander, especially with decks that are a “7”
I feel like I have to push back about the MDFC thing. While yes, the tapped ones do kinda stink on their land half, the untapped ones you can pay 3 life for are AMAZING, and absolutely deserves spots over the singular basics they replace. *Especially* when you have ones that are removal on their front half, like Sink into Stupor, Fell the Profane, or even Sundering Eruption. I find that a one-time cost of 3 life is not going to make a difference in 90% of games (since either you still win, or just get overkilled by a game-ending play so hard 3 life couldn’t have saved you), whereas being able to remove key pieces, draw cards, or even refilling your board off these cards can really matter. Not to mention, people play Shock and Pain Lands all the time, and no one seems to bat an eye at either of those these days.
Also, with regards to mana dorks, the 1-drop ones like Llanowar Elves are often some of the only accessible ramp at that cost and relative volume, and can’t be easily replaced aside from expensive 0-cost artifacts or ritual-style effects. So decks with a 3 Mana Value Commander or huge volume of impactful spells at that cost would still want them, even in spite of the risks, as can any deck that can eventually weapons their dorks in the late game like Raggadragga, Goreguts Boss lists, or the Elf decks you’ve mentioned. Yes, they’re less safe than lands or even artifacts, but they *absolutely* should still count towards a ramp package.
The thing I wanted to emphasize about the MDFCs is you don’t want all your lands to enter tapped or have to lose life for them. The thing with shock lands are a bit rough because you can fetch them out easier and they synergies with more. Stupor and profane are good, but I wanted to emphasize that you shouldn’t run like mid cards just because they have a land on the back.
For the Llanowar, it’s true that it’s the cheapest ramp, but you shouldn’t cut lands just because of the fragility. It’s more of a high risk high reward, so going the safer route is better imo
Mdfc cards are making me look at bounce lands differently
@daelusraine2989 that’s good synergy. Still all tapped though
@poppmagic yeah, but the only time I play them as lands is like turns 1-3 when I have no other option and the rest of my hand is gas. I pulled bounce lands out of everything like 2 years ago but I'm thinking I might run them again to get my boseiju back lol
@daelusraine2989 that’s not a bad one. Like if you have a landfall deck or have synergies with mdfc or channel lands, it’s def a good idea
So it's actually okay to build your deck around your commander if you have good removal pieces and protection spells. I have all kinds of decks that function differently but work with both methods, using the commander to further the deck theme, or building the deck around the commander. All you need to make sure is that your deck can still properly function without your commander out. If it can't, put in more synergistic cards and protection spells.
When it comes to Uril the Miststalker, some good cards to add would be Champion of the Flame, Gunner Conscript and possibly Valduk, Keeper of the Flame and Wyleth, Soul of Steel in case your commander gets killed. They act as backups for your commander.
You sure can! There’s just some issues with inevitability where eventually, you’ll run out of cards/mana to constantly protect you commander and in the process, you are still losing progress because instead of progressing your board more, you hold up protection. I think it’s really important to make sure that you can win without your head honcho like you said. It’s tough to find a balance and a lot of decks have difficulty with it
Heralds horn is nice in a rat deck.
Very true! Really any of the “you can have as many as you want” creatures will be good
I have built a lot of tribal decks over the years. Some good some bad. Herald's horn has only ever been decent in Mabel boros mice because that deck needs every crumb of card advantage. Plus being able to save 2 generic on 2 mice that I can then put towards the actually good boros equipment stuff is a godsend xD
I’ve run horn in vampires, fungus, and elemental tribal and every time I put it in a deck it eventually gets cut for underperforming.
I have drawn SO many cards with heralds horn its ridiculous
What’s your average creature count and what turn does an average game end on in your play group?
Nature's lore/three visits is definitely better than farseek/rampant growth but thats why we play all four!
Rampant growth is awkward. Might as well just run Sakura tribe elder over it
Very informative... ok question damnation vs blasphemous edict.. I run 4 board wipes including damnation and deciding to swap
I like edict better because it’s new, but probs just the damnation
I like both but probs the damnation to deal with token decks
Heralds horn: it takes casting three of that creature type to break even on the mana spent (even though you still have that tempo loss). And tribal decks will still have less than 50 percent (usually 30) of a chance that the top card is one. I really like your inclusions and reasonings, but it might be good to note that even some of these strictly worse cards DO sometimes have a home (even commanders sphere)
Yeah none of the cards are bad imo. I run commander sphere in my 4C breya artifact deck because I can recur it and loop a draw engine kinda. Plus it lets me dig one deeper for combo pieces later. It’s not a bad card but you probs don’t need it in the new 3C+ precon WOTC drops multiple times a year
I think Herald's Horn has a place in kindred builds that need a lot of support. Elves are elves. Dragons don't need help. Zombies accomplish both these effects with graveyard and the creatures themselves, humans have plenty of support with each other, angels are their own threat, and goblins you want more goblins.
I do, however, run one in my Orzhov Cleric deck; that particular one has a hard time fitting in all the cleric creatures, spot removal, ramp, and card draw in it. Being able to fit what is de facto ramp and card advantage on one card does have advantages. That said, it's the only kindred I'd consider running one in.
So it reverse scales, I guess? A weak kindred synergy likes this card, but strong kindred types do not.
@mattfrisone3961 that’s a fair point. If you run niche tribes, it can help
Some good takes some WILD takes.
That’s what I’m here for
Well, "Commander Fragility" has actually been a thing happening to me with trying to brew up my first five-color and stuck in theory crafting mode.
Especially when the part about the commander enhancing and/or highlighting what my deck is doing also running into conflict of not wanting my deck to come off as a "99/98-card deck with bonus card(s)" build from trying so hard to not be either over-reliant on them or too eager to bring them out asap. :c
You just gotta make sure you don’t win with that card specifically. I have 5C elemental tribal and horde of notions as the commander. He’s more utility than wincon
@@poppmagic Yeah, I ended up switching from Jegantha to Horde of Notions for my commander build still in its WIP state. Along with almost recovering from being sad about not having Jegantha as a commander to the point that I was hyping myself up with doing a custom recreation of the Japan Showcase card layout (though I didn't use the "Beleren" font to play it safe) for an alt skin of Jegantha with my "QT/fren style" doodle of Nokotan.
@GanicoGSx that’s cool. I’m sure horde will be a bit more consistent. Just add more mana
@@poppmagic Thanks and I hope to be able to find fun with Horde of Notions as my commander and Jegantha in the 99 (because there are cards, that happen to have duplicate mana pips in their "main" mana costs, I still enjoy or want to run).
@GanicoGSx I’ll be honest, horde is my favorite commander since I’ve built him. He’s just so silly
You had me at: you can't play a sol ring with a t2 signet 😂
The signet just leaves you with less mana lol. The best would be land, sol ring, talisman, into some 1 mana spell/cantrip. You just lose that with the signers
@@poppmagicI get that but in your example you said something like play a sol ring with your mana rock. Anyway, I always run both in 2 color decks and only in 3 or more colors I use less signets. I also run Farseek and in some decks commander sphere. I don't have to win t3 and the cards still offer enough to run at casual tables
And most of the other cards, now that I scrolled through the rest of the video. I am not going to argue 🙃
The cards I listed aren’t bad, there can just be better options, and if the cards you are using still work for your playgroup, then there’s nothing wrong with it !
Any sane person with a sol ring and signet in their hand on turn two would play the ring INTO signet. It's a bad example
The way to look at mdfcs s to increase ypur land count while doing other stuff, not to decrease land count to do other stuff.
36 Lands + 3-4 MDFCs has proven a decent rule of thumb for solid mana to start with before testing the deck.
It’s was a more just because you can replace them does not mean that you should and too much of a good thing can be bad
Since I mostly theory craft budget decks, alot of the early tips could just be people being restrained by the price also MDFCs are good just that cutting a full land for one is bad, the -3 life to be untapped lands are straight upgrades.
Mana dorks are ramp, its just more important to have lands instead of ramp.
If you build around your commander and it IS the win con you need to run PROTECTION, blue is best because counterspells are removal + protection in one. But otherwise protection is important.
Otherwise run backup plans. Cards similar to your commander.
It depends. The mdfc was just because you can does not mean you should.
The mana dorks are ramp, but do not replace lands and are higher risk high reward because of how easy they are to stop.
The issue was building around the commander is eventually, you’ll either run out of protection or you’ll run out of mana to keep it protected
I built a Hinata spell Slinger, and a pantlaza blink qnd burn deck and Chromatic lantern is the star in both. Basically makes it so i can just cast whatever and even use fetch lands to counter spells and such.
Spell slinger makes sense because all rituals make red mana, so being able to tap for other color good, but if you have enough duals, it should be alright. Honestly for pantlaza you probs don’t need it. You could just run a hard land ramp spell or if you say you have fetches, then your mana base should be good enough where you don’t need it. Decks without green can kinda get a pass but you should have everything you need. Natures lore/three visits will get you any shock/triome/fetchable duel and untapped if you need and it comes down a turn sooner.
@@poppmagic I hear you, I do need to clean up the mana base and invest in some better ramp spells for Pantlaza, but it helps a ton with all of the blink spells I'm playing in it. It's saved me a few times when I needed a white to cast ephemerate or juticiar's portal to save Pantlaza and get something from discover. I'll definitely look into a three visits and price some of the cheaper duals.
@FlyGravitas panlaza should be good because it’s you can get cards like cinder glade and canopy vista that are cheap fetches
i noticed dockside was min max in casual commander
Dockside either did nothing or did everything. Usually in between
For vexing role you technically can roll 100 dice ?😅
That’s gotta be the unluckiest person in the longest game in history lol
I'm sure you will get a lot of pushback in MDFCs, but basically I agree. There are some that rise to a level where having a couple of them can be a good thing, but most people are clearly wildly uninformed about mana base in general... I think with respect to some of the other specific cards, a lot of the time if you are going to run Nature's Lore, you wouldn't run Farseek INSTEAD, you would run BOTH OF THEM. I mean, it is a 100 card deck, you are likely to see, maybe, 25% of your library in most games. If you want something, do it FOUR TIMES. Likewise with things like Generous Gift, I agree Stroke of Midnight is probably a better card choice, but you're going to play with both! Same with mana rocks, and frankly I'm not as down on the old Sphere as you are. MANY times rocks that you drop early become superfluous 5 turns later, being able to turn them into card draw is actually not bad! Relic of Legends is a pretty good rock, I will pick it ahead of Commander's Sphere probably in MANY decks, but if you need 3-mana rocks, you can probably use both, and Chromatic Lantern too! Anyway, I'm more partial to the 2-mana rocks in general, and they're really a different category of thing. Good video.
Thanks man. If anything I wanted to make people question some of the more concrete things that they have in decks
You did mention about budget in the beginning, but I do feel like that probably plays the biggest part if your first card picks.
1. The amount of players playing farseek over nature’s lore is only 2% with far seem seeing 34% and natures lore at 32%. But three visits, being tripe or more in price only see 25% being exactly as good as nature’s lore. I also want to make an argument for 5c decks where far seek can grab something that produces 2 colors other than green, as you already have green if you can cast three visits, but realistically, most 5c decks or heavy on green cards any way, as a chunk of them will be ramp and dorks.
2. Relic of legends is likely to be the very best of the 3 MV rocks for sure. Though I think one of the scary things about these is how bad it feels when they are blown up. Commanders sphere doesn’t negate this completely but enabling it to draw you the card instead is pretty close. Admittedly, however, I don’t think this is why people are playing this, as there arnt as many players playing darksteel ingot or skyclave relic (a contender imo for best 3mv rock)
3. chromatic lantern is probably the worst rock. If it’s there for mana fixing, then your deck is in trouble every game you don’t draw this. The only imaginable reason I can think of to run this is if you want to turn your brain off when picking spells to cast. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But then you probably don’t need the advice of this video.
4. I guess I don’t see what you see when it comes to MDFCs. I don’t see players running more than 6 and almost always less than 4. They almost always cut at a rate of 1mdfc=0.5 lands. And it’s true that my experiences don’t mean this is reality but I’m seeing this in my play groups, online with deck builds on midfield and edhrec, as well as huge commander content creators in the TH-cam space.
5. I feel like I’ve experienced what you have when it comes to generous gift style cards. I’m always hitting a land or a creature with it. Some times a land, absolutely, but much less. But I can assure you, I’ve never had a problem dealing with a 3/3 that would have been easier to deal with if it were a 1/1. I think maybe we could do a better job of adding threats in a way that encourage us to hit more lands with these cards as we are so limited on land type removal and have so much removal for other permanents.
6. I agree with all of this in Herald’s Horn, but I want to ask, assuming it’s dropped on turn 3, how much mana would this have to save you for it to be worth it for 3 mana? How mana cards would it have to draw you to be worth it? How much combined? If it saved me 6 mana and drew me 4 cards, it probably worth it?
7. Mana dorks are the cheapest most explosive ramp we can do. It is indeed the most vulnerable. Rocks are next up for being explosive for mana production but, although less vulnerable than dorks, still painful to loses ( see my comments about commanders sphere). Land ramp, when ever possible (any time you’re in green) is almost always better because so few people play interaction for lands (see my comments about generous gift). Always go land ramp when you can, rocks when you can or need more, then dorks if it’s a theme like elves or creature synergies. Unless it’s bird. It’s never a bad time to play birds 😅
8. For ANY deck, it should be built in a way that it could with without its commander. For Voltron decks, they are generally regarded as the worst themes, despite them being, in my opinion, the most fun. I tend to build voltrons around commanders I can cheat in so how so if they get blown up, it doesn’t put me 2 turns behind.
Great video, I think I learned a few things. Thanks for the up load and thanks for the offer comment our opinions 😊
I add chromatic lantern to every 4c or 5c deck, I know the card isn't good and that you don't need it to fix mana. But what it does for me is save brainspace, the games where I have chromatic lantern I don't have to think about how I tap my mana and that little amount of brainspace you save every time accumulates quickly
Wow thanks for the biggest comment I think I’ve gotten so far!
1. The budget is good because the cards that were once scarce are now in abundance. Three visits was like $50 prior to commander legends. I think you make a fair point of being to tutor up other colors if need be, but I feel like being able to grab a green triome and still have the option to the other two colors with it is fine. You also gotta be a bit careful about some of the percentages you see online. Again three visits wasn’t available in decks prior to a few years ago, so it would have a lower percentage.
2. Relic is the the best imo. I guess I can see your point if a feels less when it blows up, but I think the upside of the others overcomes the downside of them blowing up.
3. I think lantern is fine in 4+ decks, but it’s usually workable if you have good ramp and mana.
4. Maybe the MDFC issue was happening more around my local play groups. I remember seeing a lot of lists online and seeing them mashed with everyone they can. If you have one or two, sure, but don’t cut for the sake.
5. The two were more of a thought experiment more than a critique, but i do think it’s an important to have for what makes sense to your play groups.
6. Horn is the best example I think. I would say if it can reliably do a thing, then sure. I think getting that kind of value like you mentioned is worth it, but I think it’s unlikely. I’d say in an average game, you reduce like 4 and maybe draw one? Still awkward and I prefer to work in guarantees.
7. I think it’s a scenario of high risk high reward. It makes sense like you said in elf decks or with ragadragga, but for like your average deck, it’s probably just better for hard lands or rocks. It can even negatively affect decks like Atla palani or cascade decks.
8. Voltron is hard. Mono white Nahiri equipment is probs one of the better once’s since it doesn’t matter if the token does.
Thanks for checking out the channel man!
@zenithquasar4319 try moving your lands around in an order that makes it easier. Lands that tap for everything go in one, 3 color in another, duals in one, and mono in the last. It’s easier to just go from one pile to the next and any real mana colors you need to worry about is solved after the mono pile
@ admittedly, I do the same. I’m not always super sweaty commander player and always min maxing decks. In fact I built an entire deck for when I want to turn my brain off. Ghalta. Just play big green dudes and turn them side ways. What ever happens happens 😂
@ZeIose which ghalta? OG or free creatures? Either way, super easy and fun deck!
Generous Gift and the like just are strictly better. The card may just be as functional as Stroke of midnight but the alternative of straight losing to Field of the Dead or having the ability to turn off a players mana base is always better. If a player isnt at least considering lands as targets, then I think that's on them. Even at an ultra casual table, non basic lands should be fair game.
That’s why I like the thought experiment. People just sleep them in the deck and call it a day when it should be reevaluated for your play group. Do they have problematic lands? How many are worth it to run this over stroke? Would it be better to run stroke and a just more strip line effects? This may be an awkward example of it but just because there is upside does not always translate to being functionally better
Kudos to you, nice video
Thank you! Cheers!
Love the video but I have to nitpick the voltron example. While I totally agree with the uril being bad i think making your commander your one thing is totally viable. But when you do just make sure you have heavy layers of protection and backup plans. For an example, my main voltron deck is my geist if saint traft deck. Unlike uril I dont have to fear countermagic as much because he only costs 3 mana and i uave some eay to get jim out as early as t2 but usually hea down t3. The hexproof makes sure i dont have ti fear a single swords. From there my fesr extends ourely to edicts and boardwipes which i have many ways of dodging, stopping, or recivering from. I run a bunch of creatures that orovide a littke value but mostly eant to he sacrificed to edicts, a bunch o countermagic, auras with totem armor, and mantle ot the ancients and bruna, light of alabaster to get back all my auras if I do get hit. Its also a deck fast enough that sometimes i can can kill people before having to worry about a boardwipe from them. (In fact ive discovered one weakness is the occasional losing to an opponents larger boardstate since my deck is so focused on killing people it doesn't run a whole lot of removal, just one tutorable piece, 2 flexible spot removal and 2 boardwipes. The rest are defensive countermagic) Otherwise it's honestly one of the strongest decks I've ever made. I stopped playing it because its often too strong. I had a much higher than 25% winrate with it. So yeah voltron is great just be careful in how you build it.
Voltron is good but can be very sus. You can have protection spells, but eventually, they run out/don’t have mana. Just gotta make sure it’s concrete
THANK YOU someone not "MDFCS ARE AMAZING" I'm so tired of these cards, I'm not paying 3 life for a mono color land and doesn't do anything for coming in tapped, and as a Boros player....... they suck, except like...3..... and even then I don't think I'd run them.
Edit: Respectfully disagree, Commander Sphere is a nice free draw in boros😅 😅😅😅
I’m not saying they are bad, but like not every deck really needs them imo. A lot of people say they are the best and they are good, but not game changing
Oh definitely lol. Maybe its how my brain is wired but I don't see how useful they are.😅
@@SabreAran they are good bascially because you have the choice between a mid effect and an land. Just the option makes them good, but like you said, only a handful are good. I just dont want people to jam random mdfc in their deck just because they can
@poppmagic I guess. Technically I should love these these cause I like to prep for any scenario (I run White/red counters ina equipment deck with Sunforger! Im totally not paranoid I wasn't taught by blue players why you ask? >.> lol) just aside I I have had to teach myself the value of non basics and what do they offer to make them worth coming in tapped, and none of the lands except the duel land is worth it, like I very much might grab the Boros one cause I can use both sides, but a mono color tapped with nothing else to offer other then a mid effect on the other side just seems kinda blah. They seem to be very late game kinda plays too, or at least the early ones do, I kinda see them as a limited format kinda card, but not commander or legacy were you can fix what you need or get a card that could do what the MDFC does but better. Maybe I came off too hot but I am definitely tired of hearing these card are must haves. Maybe if they make more in the future they might make some I might like cause I DO like the concept. Lol
@SabreAran I think so long as they make sense or are in theme, go for it. Like I have a Dr li energy deck and I have 2 mdfcs that both care about energy. So long as there’s no overkill you’ll be alright