Michel Martin is thee very best interviewer; she allows the guest to give a detailed answer, and doesn't talk over her guest. And then she comes back with a thoughtful question in reference to what was just said. Love her!
Dr. Delbanco is right about the motivations of students. I’ve spent lots of time on college campuses and spoken with hundreds of students. Our education system doesn’t always encourage curiosity or enable critical thinking. So, students tend not to be motivated to think; they’re often more motivated to know. It’s not their fault, really. And given the current sociopolitical culture wars being propagated by certain leaders, we’re going even further away from critical thinking and moving towards blind, uninformed followership.
Moving toward? It's been going on since the 80's! Those who embrace the "Greed is good" mentally REQUIRE sheep to do the actual work. If the sheep where able to see what their actual role is making the big shot fatter they'd lay down their tools and walk away.
@@LeoTheComm Don't be so sure of that... most whom I've met would at least still believe they had a shot breaking into the "Greed is Good" crowd... they just fall deeper down the rabbit hole.
@@LeoTheComm If you apply "Greed is good" to the cooperation between political and corporate elites, you will be on to the mother lode. Of course they want group think, it seals their power and wealth.
My experience with both attending and teaching humanities is that is has devolved into a religious cult where both teachers and students bully non-believers and stridently push orthodoxy. There is only a two types of people who is going to pay for that. Stupid ones and those who plan to work in DEI.
English and the Humanities used to teach close reading and critical thinking and so Majors would go on into, and were valued in, all kinds of fields: law, business, politics, psychology, education, etc. Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was an English Major. Then they instituted "professional programs" like Communications, Professional Writing, Social Work, and skip the critical thinking and close analysis work.
Stop making sense. That's so last century. A Kardashian's arse is in now. The rethuglicans will soon be banning libraries. Enjoy the idiocracy. Think it was filmed in 2006. They had the trumpster dumpster in mind methinks.
@@ey67 Too true! I rewatched Idiocracy last summer and it seems like a documentary now! I'm Canadian but view with horror what is happening to education with De Santos etc. Even in the 1980s, friends who went to the US for high school came back saying the textbooks there were all propagandist lies that went unquestioned. We studied American History with Howard Zinn's A People's History. Even here though, the corporatization of universities and the refusal to hold students accountable for their learning has resulted in drastically lowered standards and disempowered students who can't really read or write or think.
@@prof.jezebel slavery perfected is what we have now. And it has always been on that trojectory since inception. Matthew cooke on TH-cam has it nailed down pretty good. The election of saint Ronny reagan'and our first of TV idiots to follow proved that Americans are too stoopido to live. It made me physically ill in 1980 to see what was happening. As you stated, this is the result. The corporate puppets have nothing but contempt for humans. We just have crocodiles in suits. Looks like the reptiles are taking us all down with them. If this Ukraine thing worsens and the fear continues unabated it may not matter. Some crazy will get www 3 started. I would not be surprised at all. My guess is that political assassinations will eventually become a thing again like 1960s. Biden is throwing crumbs to the peasants to keep them distracted. But our fascist doesn't like that at all. Just a matter of time. I'm 73 and won't be around to see probably.
And if you're a teacher that tries their best to properly equip their students for critical thinking , logic & analysis - fuggehdaboudit. You're outta there. The way a good teacher expresses their love for their students is by - wait for it - teaching them. 🙄 What a concept.
Colleges and universities have become overpriced vo-techs as more businesses refuse to invest in training young talent and more jobs require post-secondary degrees. People used to go to college to learn and think, but these days it seems most people only go to college to train for a fancy certificate.
When business schools started merging with liberal arts colleges, they started becoming vocational training. And the rapidly increasing costs associated with this training demands that there must be a job at the end of their 4 years program that can justify the investment. While the humanities makes you a better citizen, it doesn't pay the bills.
@@jayski9410 A degree in humanities may not pay the college or other bills. But my tech degree came with some basic humanities, which made me a better more effective employee. And the degreed from 100% tech curriculum struggle to integrate into the workplace, and in life. Humanities taught me precision in articulation, short/long view, and most importantly, roots of our culture/policies/economy. Which as it turns out, has been priceless. World of difference, between educated, and wise. My very wise coworkers were apparent, they spoke in metaphors. The tech-only degreed thought the person speaking in metaphors were changing the subject...
Great Interview! As an Honors graduate from UC Berkeley who read the classics and Joyce, I appreciate your focus on the Humanities. In the end we are all humans and need the support of other humans. Life is richer with love and friends and humanity: the interactions of humans. Love and humanity is the answer for everything.
Until you get old and sick. Money and medicine are the answers then. Being poor will make being old and sick about as miserable as you could possibly imagine. Visit an all-Medicaid nursing home or a clinic for the poor. Love and humanity don't buy you the care that gives you a decent life. But guess what: all-private pay nursing homes, at $18K+/month, are stocked with well trained aides and nurses who have the time to take you to the potty. And what gets you that care? Yup; money. Not love.
@@Cathy-xi8cb you got it Cathy. A normal death is the stink of urine and poop that you will carry into your last years if you live that long. I'm 73 and have seen it. Extreme old age is a travesty. Luckily our corporate governance is putting an end to it all. They have nothing but contempt for humans life. They want us dead as an old lady said the oge other day to me. So die and reduce the population as the trumpster dumpster and his ilk and all politicians and a fella named scrooge said it first. It's not very pretty under any circumstances.
Well @@Cathy-xi8cb ,this is why we need the critical thinking to determine what kind of a society we want to be. Do we want to be one in which poor people are left to die in a crappy little rodent-infested apartment (or worse) while the rich get all the medical resources? Most modern societies give solid care to anyone who comes into their medical facilities, and they do it for free or low cost. We need to re-think our cultural values and put our vast resources into care and opportunity for all.
And what makes you think a humanity degree improves a persons humanity? What makes you think economic thinking is less about humanity than a psychology or English literature degree? What makes you think 'humanity' can be taught?
Well they may be talking about the downfall of English but the real problem is the math. You can't put someone $50-$100k in debt to get a degree in English or history or philosophy so they can contemplate the meaning of life while making $15.50 an hour folding pants at Old Navy. Unless the cost of the degrees gets a lot cheaper or the job prospects and pay for people with these degrees gets a lot better, the economics just doesn't work.
That is definitely a problem in North America, not so much in Europe. Tuition is free in many countries or very little. Governments provide free accommodation and free meals for the most underprivileged. Humanities are thriving in Europe.
When I taught high school junior English the students accepted my apology for the canon, the anthology we were assigned, because we connected the ideas we read to the quandaries we faced in our lives. It was a popular class.
The income gap keeps getting larger. How can you expect people to study humanities when they can't even feed their family? I love the Humanities, but I'm too worried about taking care of my family financially.
That, right there, is the problem - the way you are approaching this is what is causing problems for so many people who would like to major in a humanities field. Many employers like to have workers who can think and write critically. Also, bear in mind that there are jobs out there that are related to humanities discipline. I have a music BA and my first job out of college was working in the music industry.
@@js27-a5t I know a student in a top tier business school. She went to a wealthy public high school and can think and write critically because it was required for all students not in special ed. The entire high school body did college-level work for the last 2 years. She is going into finance because that is where the $$ is. She will leave school with the potential to make a 7 figure income before 25.
- Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. (George Carlin)
@@Cathy-xi8cb That’s the exception not the rule. Her in DC I constantly hear about students at Georgetown and GW talking about their 250k and up jobs as the reason for going into debt and if there family can afford it doesn’t matter. However the numbers are not there less than 5 percent of students get anything close to that. If you can afford it go to a t15 school otherwise stick with good in state college.
I was a middle school English teacher, my students read and wrote daily. I tried my best, but found it challenging to get kids interested in literacy, much less literature. They tolerated lessons with glazed over eyes, wishing to get back on to snapchat during the break. Most started the school year 1-3 grade levels below in fluency and comprehension. I had to teach them what an outline is and how to use it when writing essays, which is usually a 4th grade lesson. I also had to teach 5 international students the English language and grade level content in my 8th grade class. ⅓ of each class attempted plagiarism through the 2nd trimester, there were 2 transfers out of this private school into the public system and 1 suicide by the end of the school year. I have since left the profession for self employment which is 3 times the income for 1/6 of the time and energy and I don't have to worry about admin or parent support anymore. I wish I had a more inspiring story to relate. =-/
I can't speak for every student but when in grade school I really hated the lack of diversity in our reading material. Thankfully I still read for leisure but I don't think students even do that now.
When I was in high school in the early 60's, my world history teacher had us debate the war in Vietnam. He put 2 tables on opposite sides in front of the classroom, one for the pro South Vietnam side and one for the pro North Vietnam side. Debaters had to provide their sources for any information used in their argumentation. This debate not only helped me to see the war more clearly, but it helped me to understand the importance of vetting the sources of my beliefs. In my AP english class, when the teacher started using Shakespeare as our current reading list, some of us started mumbling the sentences in fake voices to emphasize how distant the literary style was from our contemporary culture. When the teacher asked us, we told her "we don't talk like that. Our problems are different, and more urgent, than those problems." She asked us what we would prefer to read & discuss. "The Autobiography of Malcolm X, Black Elk Speaks, Catch 22, One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, The Fire Next Time, etc" was the class reply. To her credit, she let us read & discuss our picks of mostly contemporary works of immediate relevance. My guess is that few high schools would allow this today, and by focusing on a classical curriculum institutions are increasingly perceived as being essentially clueless & out of touch - maybe even totally irrelevant when it comes to the problems faced by their students. Financialization, globalization, outsourcing, downsizing, inflation, debt, climate change, violence, racism, misogyny, social media, surveillance capitalism, systemic corruption and growing autocracy are all combining to make an education a challenging proposition to the young. For teachers & administrators, it's their job and they need to navigate the increasing partisan politics that constrains what learning experiences they can offer. STEM is the current secular religion, and it is the one area that can pay a decent salary to its high priests - when it isn't laying people off. The other is economics, for obvious reasons. The luxury of critical thinking that is essentially impotent in the face powerful & unnacountable economic & political forces is something that many young people simply can't afford anymore. They need a job that will pay the rent, put food on the table and pay down their enormous student debts. In late stage capitalism, literature IS a hobby - sort of...
😂😂 you think most schools are focused on classical literature? Most schools choose a hodgepodge of historically random books they hope students might at least read. Shakespeare is about the human condition. Anyone ignorant of the Middle Ages know very little about how the contemporary world works.
Excellent conversation. I worry about the ebbing of the humanities in our colleges and universities. The professor's anecdote about Purdue is encouraging, and I hope what Purdue accomplished can spread across the country. Some friendly advice from this Business Administration major: other than accounting and finance, avoid business school courses, opting instead for humanities, STEM, or anything but business school courses - they're a waste of time and one's tuition money.
Look at how journalists are under attack, education and university curriculum are under attack, and then weigh the need to pay off student loans beginning with graduation. Students today tell me they chose business finance or computer science in order to make money. Some of these are actually passionate about history or literature.
One only has to experience some of Carl Sagan to know how important it is for the imagination and expression that comes from the humanities. Or to look at great architectural works like the Haggi Sophia, Notra Dame or Westminter Abbey to know that the creative energy and insight which gave rise to them came from far more than pure science.
My parents listened to my new learning and identified their political enemy in the college and university I went to They didn't sit on their hands They took out the cancer.
I'm going to take a stab at rephrasing this wonderful conversation in a short sentence or two. It seems to me the problem is not that the humanities is dying. It is that students are worried about employment and college is very expensive. So rather than major in a humanities discipline, they are still taking those courses but not majoring in the discipline. As for solutions, clearly we need to reduce the price of college. Second, we need to make it known that the humanities develop skills that are useful for employment - you CAN major in a humanities job and be employed in a range of professions. As a professor in a humanities field myself, what worries me is that without majors, university administrations are going to find a reason to cut humanities programs. It will then be harder to hire humanities professors. So what's going to happen is that there will be less professors in humanities fields, which blocks the door for many aspiring scholars.
Yes indeed; that is the hope. We have enough humanities PhDs to stock the pond for decades, because no one ever leaves their tenured position once achieved. Right now we have people with doctorates in English, Philosophy, and History stocking shelves and working as substitute teachers. There are no jobs for them in academia.
You know, I watched this interview thinking I might be bored. It was amazing! I was so absolutely engaged that time just flew by. I was saddened and heartened at the same time. Thank you both for such an informative and insightful conversation.
I'm so glad there are people like Andrew Delbanco working on this problem. One of the worst things I've ever learned is that nuclear science students at a top university were completely ignorant of the use of bombs in japan in WWII. They weren't taking humanities courses, only high-level science. And if anyone needs to know their history, philosophy and values, it's high-level nuclear scientists!
Many many students are unaware of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I brought in an exhibit and programming from the Hiroshima Peace Museum. In the comment book were many comments about how angry they (the students) were at not knowing about this.
The cost of college has tripled over a few decades, and you wonder why students are only picking fields which will make them a good salary rather than purely academic interests? Majoring in the humanities is, simply put, one of the worst financial decisions you can make as a young person, and everyone knows it. That doesn't mean people don't pursue these things as a hobby
This is the truth of it ! Our kids need to EARN first, in order to appreciate their 'favorite subjects'. We are losing the ability to recommend college, over technical schools, for kids who are not wealthy.
I graduated from college in 1984. I met a guy who graduated from the same school in 1962. I asked him how much it cost him to go to that university, he said $2200 dollars a year. It cost me $4000 a year. My daughter went to the same school in 2014, costs were up to $20,000/yr. In 22 years the cost had not quite doubled; in 30 years it had quintupled.
What a fantastic interview! Michel Martin asks the more pressing and important questions, elucidating the very best of what Professor Delbanco has to say. As someone who works in higher ed, I learned something today that I can take back with me.
First encountered Michel Martin on NIghtline and always enjoy her thougtful commentary and incisive questions. Agree with the Professor on how sustaining the pleasure of reading and words can be, not only to express ideas but to describe and give color to life. It's right up there with music. Indeed it can be music.
STEM students should be required to take courses in the humanities so they don't 'grow up' thinking that there is only one answer, expressed in numbers and that they have it. It's called 'liberal arts education.' You learn a lot about one thing and a little bit about a lot of things. AND you learn how to communicate in the language of your choice.
My daughter, now 35, received an "honours English degree" from Mount St Vincent University in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Although she has always loved reading and writing, 17 years ago, she felt her university degree was perhaps a waste of time. Now however, while cobbling together earning a living, none in academia, she recently said that her English and literature studies are valuable in nearly all the work she does.
Take a class in art, literature, or history. Take a few. But get a DEGREE in something that pays a living wage. Rich kids could get these degrees, but the rich kids I know are told by their rich parents to go for finance. NOT medicine or law; that is for the middle class. The rich are only focused on finance, and that is because that is where the real money is.
Clean clear confident conversations, build nice structure neighborhoods beautiful walkways that you can walk in and walk on and peace and joy for children like being, happy.
I absolutely loved the Humanities: English, Art History, Music History, etc. It was so interesting. I was a dry sponge in these classes and the subjects were the water.
Excellent and well said. We need a well rounded population. Right now I feel the majority are not well rounded or critical thinkers. Thank you for this interview.
And yet his answer was even better, because he pointed out that all races, eras, cultures, and genders have written books worth reading. (Heck, even in the 80s I read books from authors all over the world, from different historical times.)
- Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. (George Carlin)
I went to the university in the eighties and my parents instantly condemned the teachings that threw light on their fascism. Their side would be happy with this new cold war and the inequality.
It's because everyone is told to study something that will get them a job! Not simply what interests them. We're told to study computers no matter how much we love books, go into accounting despite finding it boring and wishing to become an artist. It's about desperation for a decent paying job.
The humanities teaches us "to listen to other points of view and reach a consensus". That is an alien concept to most people now, which is indeed worrying.
That is typically not the case. The professor is looking for a particular interpretation -theirs. And if you don’t mirror that back to them in your assignments, you get a mediocre grade. It’s about learning orthodoxy.
@@zwatwashdc Not necessarily. Some professors might be like this, but most aren't. Also, it is the student's responsibility to their education, not the professors.
@@Pun116 recent studies on this question do not bare out your opinion. Viewpoint diversity is very rare in universities these days - even or especially the Ivy League. Anecdotally, having worked at many universities I can say my experience was that most departments were being run or held hostage by rabid leftists. At the prices kids pay these days, it is also not that easy to just slough off all the responsibility on them.
College is where I learned to think more critically about issues facing our nation. And history. And politics. And that was 30 years ago. To this day I still have a strong love for the humanities.
No mention of the replication crisis in the social sciences? You can’t have a complete discussion of this subject without discussing that, it’s one of the root problems in all of humanities.
Social sciences and humanities aren't synonyms. The replication crisis has no bearing on the discussion between, say, Socrates and the Athenian generals, Nicias and Laches, on the subject of courage.
Instantaneous, Immediate Gratification of the Central Nervous System through Web Communications, especially for Adolescence has supplanted Reading in long form. Big Brother is the Internet!
Just like everything else, it seems like…. So many sectors not stepping up & meeting the needs of the changing times are dying and/or falling apart. It feels like so many arenas need to update & shift focus to be relevant & work better. I see it in retail/commerce, education, medicine, agriculture, supply chains, law & government…to name a few off the top.
English graduate here. It feels good (generally), but if the Supreme Court decides that new graduates should pay back their student loans, I may be doubting it . . . Not many jobs here in Houston, Texas!
In the 1960's when I went to college I loved art, literature, history and philosophy but there were no jobs that I could get doing those things. Today the cost of college means that students can't afford to be humanities majors. At the end of the day it's about the money.
English majors are needed, they can read a text a dozen different ways. Graduate level English majors can do so 4 dozen ways, and while 3/4th of those ways of reading a text verge on the abstract the other 1/4th is impressive. You're kidding yourself as a society if you think thats not needed. English majors shoot themselves in the foot by being timid in workplace situations with their advanced abilities, and they also shoot themselves in the foot at the graduate level by privileging theory too much. In some grad programs, they go to theory way before developing complex and meticulous ways of reading a text.
In the past Philosophy was a discussion topic dredged up by physicists, mathematicians, theologians, scholars and authors. Today, philosophy is an actual class, ONLY way to graduate is regurgitate what professor told you as the right philosophical underpinning. Kids go to philosophy school and think their degrees are worth something.
The article "The end of literacy brings with it the end of society -- and of our humanity" asks: - ...Has the unbridled spread of commercialism and technology transformed us from small groups of active amateur participants to a large single mass of professional passive spectators and nonstop consumers?
It's unfortunate, but with the cost of education as it is, I wouldn't advocate my child to get a degree that would not pay well enough. I love literature and I think it's important to maintain. But people coming from poverty should focus on other degree fields.
Dilute the Humanities to desperately attract students and meet them at their unsophisticated and illiterate level, thus precipitating the irrelevance of the Humanities by eviscerating them of their deeper meaning and potential to boost the intellectual faculties of those students. An unsolvable Gordian knot.
The humanities are supposed to help us understand/feel how we belong in society. It doesn't help when faculty commit to vanity projects that have nothing to do with the community where they work. And too many have a sense of superiority that completely undermines whatever contribution they potentially had.
High schools are failing society; his 90% figure for students entering Purdue without a singe history or literature credit is exhibit #1. Colleges as a place for 'Gen Ed' are pricing themselves into functional irrelevance for the masses; they're becoming the preserve of a financial elite, legacy applicants, and wealthy overseas students who want to master English language usage. The entire learning model of sitting anonymously in a lecture theater, having to watch along as some professor writes on a board, is as extinct as the dodo; but the incumbents refuse to acknowledge this.. There are FAR more effective ways to get exposure to the humanities than enduring lectures by some tenured mediocrity. Colleges play an essential role in teaching STEM due to the prohibitive costs of laboratories, industrial software, & tech; the only way to play with a spectrometer is via college. Law & Med school is a variation on the STEM case. We have a failing high school paradigm, there are far too many colleges, and the higher ed-financial complex is devouring its host alive.
It’s harder to find a job in the humanities that’s the truth I know ppl (and I’m one of those) who did well and after the the Great Recession it was impossible to get a job. The Humanities is important but employers stress a lot for tech cos skills.
Professor Delbanco needs to visit the Teagle-funded program at Purdue that he praises. That program has resulted in possibly more engagement with the humanities by first-year students but more importantly in the significant shrinking of faculty and graduate students in the College of Liberal Arts--most significantly in English, Philosophy, and History. Purdue's leadership chose this program not to increase undergraduate engagement with the humanities but instead to save some money on non-science and -engineering faculty and grad-student salaries.
Stop making sense. It makes abnormal go insane and enter politics. And it's very annoying 😂. Thanks. I approve this message. Dubya shrub. Mission accomplished
Reasonable takes I think, but not nearly enough blame on the institutions. Every major should have outcome data for years prior to their enrollment average loans, pay data etc. I love learning but you cannot ignore cost.
Let's not forget that the generations after the fifties are children of cinema and tv. No one takes the time to read they watch movies and listen to podcast. That is were they are learning about the humanities. For good or bad.
Yeah, maybe if colleges weren't overcharging for classes that don't produce relevant income more people would be willing to study those types of classes. A liberal arts degree is no longer worth the paper it's printed on. Unless the country decides to start paying teachers better.
Study for 4 years and end up with a huge student loan debt, and a low earning capacity. Perhaps there is a LROI and people are allowed to be ecomically minded.
Isn't STEM more interested in COULD rather than SHOULD? And also in HOW instead of WHY? The 2023 article "My Dinner with Sydney, or, Roy Batty meets HAL?" mentions the following: - Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they COULD that they didn’t stop to think if they SHOULD. (“Jurassic Park”;1993) - What would the Senate do with me, an inexperienced legislator who lacks the faculty of self-deception, essential requisite for anyone wanting to guide others …Now you need young men, bright young men, with minds asking ‘how’ rather than ‘why,’ and who are good at masking, at blending, I should say, their personal interests with vague public ideals. (“The Leopard”,1958)
In an increasingly diverse country the emphasis on ‘English’ Literature, ‘Western’ , secularized Christian values is what is hurting the humanities.The global south is constantly shown as devoid of any humanity and in need of civilizing as per western values.
I lost patience by midway through. Fortunately, they addressed the main problem around 7:00, this WOK nonsense that passes as liberal arts nowadays. I'm sorry JS Bach might be an old white man but you'd be hard-pressed to find another musical genius like him. Trashing this music as the vile output of the male hierarchy doesn't inspire students. The examples of this silliness are endless.
I think a lot of people go to stem instead of the humanities ( Many with inclinations to humanities) beacuse it provides undoubtly Higher job propsects
True just stop reading old literature. Your time is much better spent watching Kardashians arse, or family guy reruns or king of the hill or stuff like that there. Nuff said.
Let's be honest. You can live well without humanities. You can be an accountant, a sales manager, a plumber, a Walmart manager and live well without knowing much about literature, philosophy, or history, or music. Humanities make you a better person, a thinking person, a person who appreciates the world, a person who understands the world a lot better. Humanities is of tremendous importance in your work, or career, only when you are at a relatively high level of society. And most people, by definition, cannot get to that high level. In short, humanities, for most people, is nice to have, not need to have. Granted, the world is better off if more people study humanities more. The decline of humanities is the result of a society that values money above all.
Rather than for the masses, didn't the humanities exist to educate the political elite of society and provide them with guidance as to their duties and responsibilities as leaders?
According to the book "China: Its History and Culture, 4th Edition": - It has been pointed out that a general education in the literature of the classics prepared both Chinese and British imperial officials for a generally successful and fair-minded rule. But it is not always stressed, or indeed remembered, that in the heyday of classical education in both these regimes, the object was not the mere acquisition of knowledge, but knowledge for the sake of character in the hope of attaining wisdom. The young aspirant for office in China received an education in classics written with a distinct didactic aim. The schoolboy at Westminster School read the Greeks and Romans and the Bible, not merely to excel intellectually but to imitate the best, Socrates and Cicero, and avoid the worst, Nero and Commodus (with even more important lessons from the Bible, though these were haphazardly applied).
According to the article "The Needham Question": - China always valued the humanities above the sciences. If you aspired to high office it was the classics rather than the sciences that you would study. In China the Daoists studied nature but it was the Confucians who formed the ruling elite. Confucians regarded the Daoist teaching as something for the illiterate masses and this had a negative impact on scientific research. Daoist analysis was fairly superficial, involving observation and reflection rather than taking things apart and trying to answer the fundamental ‘why?’ questions. Many Daoist texts are full of wonderment at the structure of nature without seeking to explain how it all came to be. The primary concern of Chinese administrators was the health and welfare of people rather than increasing knowledge. Science for science’s sake was not thought of as a useful occupation as it did not directly benefit anyone. It was considered more worthwhile to study ethics and politics that could enhance everyone’s well-being. By contrast in Europe the ancient studies in sciences (nature, mathematics, physics and philosophy) retained a high status.
This problem is multi-faceted. I didn't like the interviewers attitude or questions to some extent - they showed a lack of appreciation or knowledge of the importance of humanities and it showed her lack of exposure to what others of us had exposure to in our education. Just because yours lacked something doesn't mean all the rest of us lacked that. I think students have been encouraged to go into college soley to make a buck and colleges success are measured by did their graduates get a job and how much money they are making. Problem is yes we need doctors, engineers, coders but humanities - the performing arts, history, anthropology, english etc. - are what make life worth living. It is how we relate to each other. You can have the "necessities" of life - food, shelter, air etc. but without love and the unmeasureables - it doesn't mean anything. Babies die without interaction, love, stories - what the humanities provide - even if they get food etc. necessities of life. You need everything to be fully human. And I do think that is part of our problems today. Mental health is in bad shape, etc. because we don't value the humanities enough.
If the humanities are supposed to promote critical thinking, wouldn't Socrates have said that critical thinkers are regarded as enemies of the state by the those in power?
My observations were that big-picture thinkers were more likely to study the "soft" disciplines, while detail-oriented thinkers liked "hard" sciences. Neither is right or wrong.
As an ex-English/philosophy major who eventually became a software engineer I'd dispute the idea that the humanities can teach humanity any better than a mathematician can.
“Dead white guys have nothing to teach us.” Ok, giant eye roll. Yeah, they do. First of all, not all the great novelists read today were white guys. But to say that genius observers and interpreters of the human condition have nothing to teach because of their skin color is patently absurd. These writers were geniuses who were far better than the average person at artfully conveying profound questions of human existence, emotions and ethics, and to say we can just blithely disregard their insights because they were white is quite honestly hubris beyond belief and belies an unbearable sense of entitlement among people today where everyone feels their opinion is just as valid as other, smarter, more expert and informed opinions. People have A LOT to learn from dead, white, articulate geniuses.
The Humanities died when the worthless professors allowed the pirate administrators to turn their courses into schlock classes that are impossible to fail. Courses that are impossible to fail are great for retention. "Iam invideo magistro tuo, qui te tanta mercede, quantam iam proferam, nihil sapere doceat."
A very unconvincing case for why it is bad that the humanities are disappearing. If I understood correctly: young people grapple with questions that have no single, definite answer; the humanities also deals with these same questions (which seems to be necessarily true given that at least some of the authors are young and that probably it's not only young people who grapple with these questions); therefore, studying the humanities is good. Huh? Formally, the argument is: if someone faces a challenge, any platform that presents (not even solves, but just presents) those challenges is worthy of prolonged study. How ironic that this purportedly best argument for studying the humanities is, formally speaking, an invalid argument (conclusion doe snot follow from the premises): why is just the presentation of other people's thoughts about these challenges worthy of study? This is not to say that they can't be worthy of study, but, given that the proponent of the argument concedes that these questions have no answer, clearly additional argument is needed here.
Anyone heard of the Hierarchy of Needs. Creation of a dog eat dog society leads to a lack of general safety and consequent extractive capitalism, which protects it's false narrative of freedom etc. So of course the lack of humanities as a choice is a rational yet factually misplaced end point of what will create personal and social safety. We all get what we allow to be created and the Humanities have been too much in the privileged camp for too long and have not noticed nor spoken out about, the failure of the economic culture which creates universal anxiety and resentment in the populace.
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Michel Martin is thee very best interviewer; she allows the guest to give a detailed answer, and doesn't talk over her guest. And then she comes back with a thoughtful question in reference to what was just said. Love her!
Dr. Delbanco is right about the motivations of students. I’ve spent lots of time on college campuses and spoken with hundreds of students. Our education system doesn’t always encourage curiosity or enable critical thinking. So, students tend not to be motivated to think; they’re often more motivated to know. It’s not their fault, really. And given the current sociopolitical culture wars being propagated by certain leaders, we’re going even further away from critical thinking and moving towards blind, uninformed followership.
Moving toward? It's been going on since the 80's! Those who embrace the "Greed is good" mentally REQUIRE sheep to do the actual work. If the sheep where able to see what their actual role is making the big shot fatter they'd lay down their tools and walk away.
We need to stop being lemmings, stop demonstrating the we value lemmings and stop teaching our children to *be* lemmings!
@@LeoTheComm Don't be so sure of that... most whom I've met would at least still believe they had a shot breaking into the "Greed is Good" crowd... they just fall deeper down the rabbit hole.
@@LeoTheComm If you apply "Greed is good" to the cooperation between political and corporate elites, you will be on to the mother lode. Of course they want group think, it seals their power and wealth.
My experience with both attending and teaching humanities is that is has devolved into a religious cult where both teachers and students bully non-believers and stridently push orthodoxy. There is only a two types of people who is going to pay for that. Stupid ones and those who plan to work in DEI.
What an intelligent, eloquent and human man. Thanks for this interview
It is refreshing to hear a rational adult speak.
English and the Humanities used to teach close reading and critical thinking and so Majors would go on into, and were valued in, all kinds of fields: law, business, politics, psychology, education, etc. Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was an English Major. Then they instituted "professional programs" like Communications, Professional Writing, Social Work, and skip the critical thinking and close analysis work.
Stop making sense. That's so last century. A Kardashian's arse is in now. The rethuglicans will soon be banning libraries. Enjoy the idiocracy. Think it was filmed in 2006. They had the trumpster dumpster in mind methinks.
@@ey67 Too true! I rewatched Idiocracy last summer and it seems like a documentary now! I'm Canadian but view with horror what is happening to education with De Santos etc. Even in the 1980s, friends who went to the US for high school came back saying the textbooks there were all propagandist lies that went unquestioned. We studied American History with Howard Zinn's A People's History. Even here though, the corporatization of universities and the refusal to hold students accountable for their learning has resulted in drastically lowered standards and disempowered students who can't really read or write or think.
@@prof.jezebel slavery perfected is what we have now. And it has always been on that trojectory since inception. Matthew cooke on TH-cam has it nailed down pretty good. The election of saint Ronny reagan'and our first of TV idiots to follow proved that Americans are too stoopido to live. It made me physically ill in 1980 to see what was happening. As you stated, this is the result. The corporate puppets have nothing but contempt for humans. We just have crocodiles in suits. Looks like the reptiles are taking us all down with them. If this Ukraine thing worsens and the fear continues unabated it may not matter. Some crazy will get www 3 started. I would not be surprised at all. My guess is that political assassinations will eventually become a thing again like 1960s. Biden is throwing crumbs to the peasants to keep them distracted. But our fascist doesn't like that at all. Just a matter of time. I'm 73 and won't be around to see probably.
And if you're a teacher that tries their best to properly equip their students for critical thinking , logic & analysis - fuggehdaboudit. You're outta there. The way a good teacher expresses their love for their students is by - wait for it - teaching them. 🙄 What a concept.
Colleges and universities have become overpriced vo-techs as more businesses refuse to invest in training young talent and more jobs require post-secondary degrees. People used to go to college to learn and think, but these days it seems most people only go to college to train for a fancy certificate.
Depends on the college. Some require no humanities, and it's noticeable, at work.
When business schools started merging with liberal arts colleges, they started becoming vocational training. And the rapidly increasing costs associated with this training demands that there must be a job at the end of their 4 years program that can justify the investment. While the humanities makes you a better citizen, it doesn't pay the bills.
@@jayski9410 Well I'm a professor of music and anthropology. It pays the bills for me!
@@jayski9410 A degree in humanities may not pay the college or other bills. But my tech degree came with some basic humanities, which made me a better more effective employee. And the degreed from 100% tech curriculum struggle to integrate into the workplace, and in life. Humanities taught me precision in articulation, short/long view, and most importantly, roots of our culture/policies/economy. Which as it turns out, has been priceless.
World of difference, between educated, and wise. My very wise coworkers were apparent, they spoke in metaphors. The tech-only degreed thought the person speaking in metaphors were changing the subject...
@@jayski9410"MAY"* make you a better citizen. But, what's the point if you haven't learnt empathy, compassion & humanity?
Great Interview! As an Honors graduate from UC Berkeley who read the classics and Joyce, I appreciate your focus on the Humanities. In the end we are all humans and need the support of other humans. Life is richer with love and friends and humanity: the interactions of humans. Love and humanity is the answer for everything.
Until you get old and sick. Money and medicine are the answers then. Being poor will make being old and sick about as miserable as you could possibly imagine. Visit an all-Medicaid nursing home or a clinic for the poor. Love and humanity don't buy you the care that gives you a decent life. But guess what: all-private pay nursing homes, at $18K+/month, are stocked with well trained aides and nurses who have the time to take you to the potty. And what gets you that care? Yup; money. Not love.
@@Cathy-xi8cb you got it Cathy. A normal death is the stink of urine and poop that you will carry into your last years if you live that long. I'm 73 and have seen it. Extreme old age is a travesty. Luckily our corporate governance is putting an end to it all. They have nothing but contempt for humans life. They want us dead as an old lady said the oge other day to me. So die and reduce the population as the trumpster dumpster and his ilk and all politicians and a fella named scrooge said it first. It's not very pretty under any circumstances.
Are you married
@@diannemurphy7847 is who married. No comprendez Vous
Well @@Cathy-xi8cb ,this is why we need the critical thinking to determine what kind of a society we want to be. Do we want to be one in which poor people are left to die in a crappy little rodent-infested apartment (or worse) while the rich get all the medical resources? Most modern societies give solid care to anyone who comes into their medical facilities, and they do it for free or low cost. We need to re-think our cultural values and put our vast resources into care and opportunity for all.
It's a crisis
when economic 'thinkers'
are devoid of humanity
The cult of economics and its utopian political models are the root cause of all our problems.
They have nothing but contempt for humans
And what makes you think a humanity degree improves a persons humanity? What makes you think economic thinking is less about humanity than a psychology or English literature degree? What makes you think 'humanity' can be taught?
@@ey67 Prove that. Or are you trying to prove humanities teach wild assertions are sufficient?
@@donjindra go to work for any corporation and find out for yourself. I'm 73. Don't know how old you are. Any hint of humanity will get you fired.
Well they may be talking about the downfall of English but the real problem is the math. You can't put someone $50-$100k in debt to get a degree in English or history or philosophy so they can contemplate the meaning of life while making $15.50 an hour folding pants at Old Navy. Unless the cost of the degrees gets a lot cheaper or the job prospects and pay for people with these degrees gets a lot better, the economics just doesn't work.
That is definitely a problem in North America, not so much in Europe. Tuition is free in many countries or very little. Governments provide free accommodation and free meals for the most underprivileged. Humanities are thriving in Europe.
An obvious and important observance ! Thank you for making it ! The heart may want what it wants, but the wallet
must always come first !
Wow. He sure made me think during that talk. Thank you so much! Another knocked out interview guys!
When I taught high school junior English the students accepted my apology for the canon, the anthology we were assigned, because we connected the ideas we read to the quandaries we faced in our lives. It was a popular class.
The income gap keeps getting larger. How can you expect people to study humanities when they can't even feed their family? I love the Humanities, but I'm too worried about taking care of my family financially.
Lol
That, right there, is the problem - the way you are approaching this is what is causing problems for so many people who would like to major in a humanities field. Many employers like to have workers who can think and write critically. Also, bear in mind that there are jobs out there that are related to humanities discipline. I have a music BA and my first job out of college was working in the music industry.
@@js27-a5t I know a student in a top tier business school. She went to a wealthy public high school and can think and write critically because it was required for all students not in special ed. The entire high school body did college-level work for the last 2 years. She is going into finance because that is where the $$ is. She will leave school with the potential to make a 7 figure income before 25.
- Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. (George Carlin)
@@Cathy-xi8cb That’s the exception not the rule. Her in DC I constantly hear about students at Georgetown and GW talking about their 250k and up jobs as the reason for going into debt and if there family can afford it doesn’t matter. However the numbers are not there less than 5 percent of students get anything close to that. If you can afford it go to a t15 school otherwise stick with good in state college.
I was a middle school English teacher, my students read and wrote daily. I tried my best, but found it challenging to get kids interested in literacy, much less literature. They tolerated lessons with glazed over eyes, wishing to get back on to snapchat during the break. Most started the school year 1-3 grade levels below in fluency and comprehension. I had to teach them what an outline is and how to use it when writing essays, which is usually a 4th grade lesson. I also had to teach 5 international students the English language and grade level content in my 8th grade class. ⅓ of each class attempted plagiarism through the 2nd trimester, there were 2 transfers out of this private school into the public system and 1 suicide by the end of the school year. I have since left the profession for self employment which is 3 times the income for 1/6 of the time and energy and I don't have to worry about admin or parent support anymore. I wish I had a more inspiring story to relate. =-/
Cellphones offering instant gratification is the new drug for everyone
I can't speak for every student but when in grade school I really hated the lack of diversity in our reading material. Thankfully I still read for leisure but I don't think students even do that now.
When I was in high school in the early 60's, my world history teacher had us debate the war in Vietnam. He put 2 tables on opposite sides in front of the classroom, one for the pro South Vietnam side and one for the pro North Vietnam side. Debaters had to provide their sources for any information used in their argumentation. This debate not only helped me to see the war more clearly, but it helped me to understand the importance of vetting the sources of my beliefs.
In my AP english class, when the teacher started using Shakespeare as our current reading list, some of us started mumbling the sentences in fake voices to emphasize how distant the literary style was from our contemporary culture. When the teacher asked us, we told her "we don't talk like that. Our problems are different, and more urgent, than those problems." She asked us what we would prefer to read & discuss. "The Autobiography of Malcolm X, Black Elk Speaks, Catch 22, One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, The Fire Next Time, etc" was the class reply. To her credit, she let us read & discuss our picks of mostly contemporary works of immediate relevance.
My guess is that few high schools would allow this today, and by focusing on a classical curriculum institutions are increasingly perceived as being essentially clueless & out of touch - maybe even totally irrelevant when it comes to the problems faced by their students.
Financialization, globalization, outsourcing, downsizing, inflation, debt, climate change, violence, racism, misogyny, social media, surveillance capitalism, systemic corruption and growing autocracy are all combining to make an education a challenging proposition to the young. For teachers & administrators, it's their job and they need to navigate the increasing partisan politics that constrains what learning experiences they can offer.
STEM is the current secular religion, and it is the one area that can pay a decent salary to its high priests - when it isn't laying people off. The other is economics, for obvious reasons. The luxury of critical thinking that is essentially impotent in the face powerful & unnacountable economic & political forces is something that many young people simply can't afford anymore. They need a job that will pay the rent, put food on the table and pay down their enormous student debts.
In late stage capitalism, literature IS a hobby - sort of...
😂😂 you think most schools are focused on classical literature? Most schools choose a hodgepodge of historically random books they hope students might at least read. Shakespeare is about the human condition. Anyone ignorant of the Middle Ages know very little about how the contemporary world works.
Excellent conversation. I worry about the ebbing of the humanities in our colleges and universities. The professor's anecdote about Purdue is encouraging, and I hope what Purdue accomplished can spread across the country. Some friendly advice from this Business Administration major: other than accounting and finance, avoid business school courses, opting instead for humanities, STEM, or anything but business school courses - they're a waste of time and one's tuition money.
Look at how journalists are under attack, education and university curriculum are under attack, and then weigh the need to pay off student loans beginning with graduation. Students today tell me they chose business finance or computer science in order to make money.
Some of these are actually passionate about history or literature.
One only has to experience some of Carl Sagan to know how important it is for the imagination and expression that comes from the humanities.
Or to look at great architectural works like the Haggi Sophia, Notra Dame or Westminter Abbey to know that the creative energy and insight which gave rise to them came from far more than pure science.
My parents listened to my new learning and identified their political enemy in the college and university I went to
They didn't sit on their hands
They took out the cancer.
"Haggi Sophia, Notra Dame or Westminster Abbey"
Notre Dame de Paris or Notre Dame du Lac, it's always notre.
I'm going to take a stab at rephrasing this wonderful conversation in a short sentence or two. It seems to me the problem is not that the humanities is dying. It is that students are worried about employment and college is very expensive. So rather than major in a humanities discipline, they are still taking those courses but not majoring in the discipline.
As for solutions, clearly we need to reduce the price of college. Second, we need to make it known that the humanities develop skills that are useful for employment - you CAN major in a humanities job and be employed in a range of professions.
As a professor in a humanities field myself, what worries me is that without majors, university administrations are going to find a reason to cut humanities programs. It will then be harder to hire humanities professors. So what's going to happen is that there will be less professors in humanities fields, which blocks the door for many aspiring scholars.
Yes indeed; that is the hope. We have enough humanities PhDs to stock the pond for decades, because no one ever leaves their tenured position once achieved. Right now we have people with doctorates in English, Philosophy, and History stocking shelves and working as substitute teachers. There are no jobs for them in academia.
"fewer" not "less" professors
@@ricksfavs3246 We are already getting the less, haha.
You know, I watched this interview thinking I might be bored. It was amazing! I was so absolutely engaged that time just flew by. I was saddened and heartened at the same time. Thank you both for such an informative and insightful conversation.
I'm so glad there are people like Andrew Delbanco working on this problem. One of the worst things I've ever learned is that nuclear science students at a top university were completely ignorant of the use of bombs in japan in WWII. They weren't taking humanities courses, only high-level science. And if anyone needs to know their history, philosophy and values, it's high-level nuclear scientists!
Many many students are unaware of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I brought in an exhibit and programming from the Hiroshima Peace Museum. In the comment book were many comments about how angry they (the students) were at not knowing about this.
The cost of college has tripled over a few decades, and you wonder why students are only picking fields which will make them a good salary rather than purely academic interests? Majoring in the humanities is, simply put, one of the worst financial decisions you can make as a young person, and everyone knows it. That doesn't mean people don't pursue these things as a hobby
This is the truth of it ! Our kids need to EARN first, in order to appreciate their 'favorite subjects'. We are losing the ability to recommend college, over technical schools, for kids who are not wealthy.
I graduated from college in 1984. I met a guy who graduated from the same school in 1962. I asked him how much it cost him to go to that university, he said $2200 dollars a year. It cost me $4000 a year. My daughter went to the same school in 2014, costs were up to $20,000/yr. In 22 years the cost had not quite doubled; in 30 years it had quintupled.
@@jonwalter6317 it's less when accounting for inflation. I did some searches and it said "tripled" but I don't know for sure
@@BorkDoggo I was one of those hated Finance majors and am an accountant now - so I agree. It's just the non-inflation-adjusted ratios are horrifying
What a fantastic interview! Michel Martin asks the more pressing and important questions, elucidating the very best of what Professor Delbanco has to say. As someone who works in higher ed, I learned something today that I can take back with me.
First encountered Michel Martin on NIghtline and always enjoy her thougtful commentary and incisive questions. Agree with the Professor on how sustaining the pleasure of reading and words can be, not only to express ideas but to describe and give color to life. It's right up there with music. Indeed it can be music.
STEM students should be required to take courses in the humanities so they don't 'grow up' thinking that there is only one answer, expressed in numbers and that they have it. It's called 'liberal arts education.' You learn a lot about one thing and a little bit about a lot of things. AND you learn how to communicate in the language of your choice.
My daughter, now 35, received an "honours English degree" from Mount St Vincent University in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Although she has always loved reading and writing, 17 years ago, she felt her university degree was perhaps a waste of time. Now however, while cobbling together earning a living, none in academia, she recently said that her English and literature studies are valuable in nearly all the work she does.
Take a class in art, literature, or history. Take a few. But get a DEGREE in something that pays a living wage. Rich kids could get these degrees, but the rich kids I know are told by their rich parents to go for finance. NOT medicine or law; that is for the middle class. The rich are only focused on finance, and that is because that is where the real money is.
Clean clear confident conversations, build nice structure neighborhoods beautiful walkways that you can walk in and walk on and peace and joy for children like being, happy.
I absolutely loved the Humanities: English, Art History, Music History, etc. It was so interesting. I was a dry sponge in these classes and the subjects were the water.
Excellent and well said. We need a well rounded population. Right now I feel the majority are not well rounded or critical thinkers. Thank you for this interview.
Love love love that Michel brought up the dead white guy thing. She has a serious skill for asking good questions. Super insightful!
And yet his answer was even better, because he pointed out that all races, eras, cultures, and genders have written books worth reading. (Heck, even in the 80s I read books from authors all over the world, from different historical times.)
A Jewish surname lmao? Hating on white culture what a surprise
@@jaykay415 yeah sure the western classical canon that theses universities were built on have nothing to do with the European culture it originates
Wow, great video, some stuff seems somewhat obvious, but he really put it all brilliantly, another person for me to follow👏
Everyone should take a Philosophy course
First thing my philosophy prof. told me in my first philosophy class: To be a philosopher is to learn how to die.
- Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that. (George Carlin)
And in these times, don't more and more people have to have 2 jobs to make ends meet?
I went to the university in the eighties and my parents instantly condemned the teachings that threw light on their fascism. Their side would be happy with this new cold war and the inequality.
Your comment is evidence that the collapse of the humanities is a good thing.
Threw light on your parent’s “fascism”?
@@zwatwashdc I thought the same thing. Presumably those teachings they got in the 80s didn't include an accurate definition of fascism.
Very troubling
I don’t think it’s interest. It’s cost v benefits.
It's because everyone is told to study something that will get them a job! Not simply what interests them. We're told to study computers no matter how much we love books, go into accounting despite finding it boring and wishing to become an artist. It's about desperation for a decent paying job.
STEM is the way to go to make a better living financially.
We can't ALL be engineers.
And yet, the degree that has the highest success rate in Entrepreneurial endeavours is Bachelors of Arts.
I work in STEM. I feel like a new generation of factory workers. You might make more money in sales or marketing.
Until AI
Individually perhaps, as a society no.
Beautiful interview !
Yes, we are relying too much on colleges and Universities for adult humanities education.
The humanities teaches us "to listen to other points of view and reach a consensus". That is an alien concept to most people now, which is indeed worrying.
That is typically not the case. The professor is looking for a particular interpretation -theirs. And if you don’t mirror that back to them in your assignments, you get a mediocre grade. It’s about learning orthodoxy.
@@zwatwashdc Not necessarily. Some professors might be like this, but most aren't. Also, it is the student's responsibility to their education, not the professors.
@@Pun116 recent studies on this question do not bare out your opinion. Viewpoint diversity is very rare in universities these days - even or especially the Ivy League. Anecdotally, having worked at many universities I can say my experience was that most departments were being run or held hostage by rabid leftists. At the prices kids pay these days, it is also not that easy to just slough off all the responsibility on them.
Really enjoyed this
They’ve been softened by grievance studies and anything with any academic rigor. I would be actually embarrassed to have a humanities degree in 2023.
More like hijacked by grievance studies.
College is where I learned to think more critically about issues facing our nation. And history. And politics. And that was 30 years ago. To this day I still have a strong love for the humanities.
No mention of the replication crisis in the social sciences? You can’t have a complete discussion of this subject without discussing that, it’s one of the root problems in all of humanities.
Social sciences and humanities aren't synonyms. The replication crisis has no bearing on the discussion between, say, Socrates and the Athenian generals, Nicias and Laches, on the subject of courage.
I took a class in Humanities as an elective because its schedule fit into mine.
It was one of my best, most rewarding classes.
Instantaneous, Immediate Gratification of the Central Nervous System through Web Communications, especially for Adolescence has supplanted Reading in long form.
Big Brother is the Internet!
We don't need humanities anymore, we have Wokeness!!
“We also need citizens.” Spot on!
"Michel Martin is thee very best interviewer" Couldn't agree more.
Just like everything else, it seems like….
So many sectors not stepping up & meeting the needs of the changing times are dying and/or falling apart. It feels like so many arenas need to update & shift focus to be relevant & work better. I see it in retail/commerce, education, medicine, agriculture, supply chains, law & government…to name a few off the top.
Intelligent guy...He has a point..
The key to reading and understanding is critical thinking skills....
English graduate here. It feels good (generally), but if the Supreme Court decides that new graduates should pay back their student loans, I may be doubting it . . . Not many jobs here in Houston, Texas!
In the 1960's when I went to college I loved art, literature, history and philosophy but there were no jobs that I could get doing those things. Today the cost of college means that students can't afford to be humanities majors. At the end of the day it's about the money.
English majors are needed, they can read a text a dozen different ways. Graduate level English majors can do so 4 dozen ways, and while 3/4th of those ways of reading a text verge on the abstract the other 1/4th is impressive. You're kidding yourself as a society if you think thats not needed. English majors shoot themselves in the foot by being timid in workplace situations with their advanced abilities, and they also shoot themselves in the foot at the graduate level by privileging theory too much. In some grad programs, they go to theory way before developing complex and meticulous ways of reading a text.
Kids should graduate high school with these skills. They should be moving on to technical training by 17-18.
In the past Philosophy was a discussion topic dredged up by physicists, mathematicians, theologians, scholars and authors.
Today, philosophy is an actual class, ONLY way to graduate is regurgitate what professor told you as the right philosophical underpinning.
Kids go to philosophy school and think their degrees are worth something.
The article "The end of literacy brings with it the end of society -- and of our humanity" asks:
- ...Has the unbridled spread of commercialism and technology transformed us from small groups of active amateur participants to a large single mass of professional passive spectators and nonstop consumers?
It's unfortunate, but with the cost of education as it is, I wouldn't advocate my child to get a degree that would not pay well enough.
I love literature and I think it's important to maintain. But people coming from poverty should focus on other degree fields.
Dilute the Humanities to desperately attract students and meet them at their unsophisticated and illiterate level, thus precipitating the irrelevance of the Humanities by eviscerating them of their deeper meaning and potential to boost the intellectual faculties of those students. An unsolvable Gordian knot.
Wonderful interview!!! I don't know her name, but hat's off, lady!
The humanities are supposed to help us understand/feel how we belong in society. It doesn't help when faculty commit to vanity projects that have nothing to do with the community where they work. And too many have a sense of superiority that completely undermines whatever contribution they potentially had.
High schools are failing society; his 90% figure for students entering Purdue without a singe history or literature credit is exhibit #1.
Colleges as a place for 'Gen Ed' are pricing themselves into functional irrelevance for the masses; they're becoming the preserve of a financial elite, legacy applicants, and wealthy overseas students who want to master English language usage.
The entire learning model of sitting anonymously in a lecture theater, having to watch along as some professor writes on a board, is as extinct as the dodo; but the incumbents refuse to acknowledge this.. There are FAR more effective ways to get exposure to the humanities than enduring lectures by some tenured mediocrity.
Colleges play an essential role in teaching STEM due to the prohibitive costs of laboratories, industrial software, & tech; the only way to play with a spectrometer is via college.
Law & Med school is a variation on the STEM case.
We have a failing high school paradigm, there are far too many colleges, and the higher ed-financial complex is devouring its host alive.
Speak, oh mansplaining bro
@@js27-a5t Your response is neanderthal; stop showcasing your ignorance.
You hit the nail on the head, and touched a few nerves, it seems, too 😂
Chat GPT is ending these profs. Bye bye 👋 Studied English Literature and loved it. 😊 Read Brave New World and 1984...best stuff ever!!
It’s harder to find a job in the humanities that’s the truth I know ppl (and I’m one of those) who did well and after the the Great Recession it was impossible to get a job. The Humanities is important but employers stress a lot for tech cos skills.
This will only hurt us as humans.
Professor Delbanco needs to visit the Teagle-funded program at Purdue that he praises. That program has resulted in possibly more engagement with the humanities by first-year students but more importantly in the significant shrinking of faculty and graduate students in the College of Liberal Arts--most significantly in English, Philosophy, and History. Purdue's leadership chose this program not to increase undergraduate engagement with the humanities but instead to save some money on non-science and -engineering faculty and grad-student salaries.
What solutions have the humanities provided in the last 50 years?
If they have fed the modern social justice movement, they have only created more problems.
If you play with GPT4 for about an hour, you’ll see that the productivity of scholars is poised to explode. There won’t be much demand in the future.
Stop the unfairness. It's a no brainer.
Stop making sense. It makes abnormal go insane and enter politics. And it's very annoying 😂. Thanks. I approve this message. Dubya shrub. Mission accomplished
Reasonable takes I think, but not nearly enough blame on the institutions. Every major should have outcome data for years prior to their enrollment average loans, pay data etc. I love learning but you cannot ignore cost.
do it, yes. but IN HIGH SCHOOL
Let's not forget that the generations after the fifties are children of cinema and tv. No one takes the time to read they watch movies and listen to podcast. That is were they are learning about the humanities. For good or bad.
Yeah, maybe if colleges weren't overcharging for classes that don't produce relevant income more people would be willing to study those types of classes.
A liberal arts degree is no longer worth the paper it's printed on. Unless the country decides to start paying teachers better.
Adolescence goes from 13 - 25!!! The Forebrain - (the Planning part) isn't developed until 25.
Study for 4 years and end up with a huge student loan debt, and a low earning capacity. Perhaps there is a LROI and people are allowed to be ecomically minded.
Isn't STEM more interested in COULD rather than SHOULD? And also in HOW instead of WHY? The 2023 article "My Dinner with Sydney, or, Roy Batty meets HAL?" mentions the following:
- Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they COULD that they didn’t stop to think if they SHOULD. (“Jurassic Park”;1993)
- What would the Senate do with me, an inexperienced legislator who lacks the faculty of self-deception, essential requisite for anyone wanting to guide others …Now you need young men, bright young men, with minds asking ‘how’ rather than ‘why,’ and who are good at masking, at blending, I should say, their personal interests with vague public ideals. (“The Leopard”,1958)
The economy had deemed that the humanities isnt profitable, that probably has something to do with it
Yes.
In an increasingly diverse country the emphasis on ‘English’ Literature, ‘Western’ , secularized Christian values is what is hurting the humanities.The global south is constantly shown as devoid of any humanity and in need of civilizing as per western values.
That's just not true. For decades now, universities have gone out of their way to diversify the offerings.
I lost patience by midway through.
Fortunately, they addressed the main problem around 7:00, this WOK nonsense that passes as liberal arts nowadays.
I'm sorry JS Bach might be an old white man but you'd be hard-pressed to find another musical genius like him. Trashing this music as the vile output of the male hierarchy doesn't inspire students. The examples of this silliness are endless.
I think a lot of people go to stem instead of the humanities ( Many with inclinations to humanities) beacuse it provides undoubtly Higher job propsects
We were promised flying cars and all we got was 140 characters.
Let's be real: a humanities major usually keeps you working in the drive thru for life. There is just no money in it!
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Fabulous. A strong liberal arts education is the best.
No one wants to go $40k into debt just to read some old literature and get a job selling insurance
True just stop reading old literature. Your time is much better spent watching Kardashians arse, or family guy reruns or king of the hill or stuff like that there. Nuff said.
Lol
Okay, so you'll go $40k into debt as a business major, and still wind up selling insurance, and just be dumber than you would be.
Let's be honest. You can live well without humanities. You can be an accountant, a sales manager, a plumber, a Walmart manager and live well without knowing much about literature, philosophy, or history, or music.
Humanities make you a better person, a thinking person, a person who appreciates the world, a person who understands the world a lot better.
Humanities is of tremendous importance in your work, or career, only when you are at a relatively high level of society. And most people, by definition, cannot get to that high level. In short, humanities, for most people, is nice to have, not need to have.
Granted, the world is better off if more people study humanities more. The decline of humanities is the result of a society that values money above all.
Humanities do not get you a job. Its too expensive to not come out of college without a trade.
Rather than for the masses, didn't the humanities exist to educate the political elite of society and provide them with guidance as to their duties and responsibilities as leaders?
According to the book "China: Its History and Culture, 4th Edition":
- It has been pointed out that a general education in the literature of the classics prepared both Chinese and British imperial officials for a generally successful and fair-minded rule. But it is not always stressed, or indeed remembered, that in the heyday of classical education in both these regimes, the object was not the mere acquisition of knowledge, but knowledge for the sake of character in the hope of attaining wisdom. The young aspirant for office in China received an education in classics written with a distinct didactic aim. The schoolboy at Westminster School read the Greeks and Romans and the Bible, not merely to excel intellectually but to imitate the best, Socrates and Cicero, and avoid the worst, Nero and Commodus (with even more important lessons from the Bible, though these were haphazardly applied).
According to the article "The Needham Question":
- China always valued the humanities above the sciences. If you aspired to high office it was the classics rather than the sciences that you would study. In China the Daoists studied nature but it was the Confucians who formed the ruling elite. Confucians regarded the Daoist teaching as something for the illiterate masses and this had a negative impact on scientific research. Daoist analysis was fairly superficial, involving observation and reflection rather than taking things apart and trying to answer the fundamental ‘why?’ questions. Many Daoist texts are full of wonderment at the structure of nature without seeking to explain how it all came to be. The primary concern of Chinese administrators was the health and welfare of people rather than increasing knowledge. Science for science’s sake was not thought of as a useful occupation as it did not directly benefit anyone. It was considered more worthwhile to study ethics and politics that could enhance everyone’s well-being. By contrast in Europe the ancient studies in sciences (nature, mathematics, physics and philosophy) retained a high status.
This problem is multi-faceted. I didn't like the interviewers attitude or questions to some extent - they showed a lack of appreciation or knowledge of the importance of humanities and it showed her lack of exposure to what others of us had exposure to in our education. Just because yours lacked something doesn't mean all the rest of us lacked that. I think students have been encouraged to go into college soley to make a buck and colleges success are measured by did their graduates get a job and how much money they are making. Problem is yes we need doctors, engineers, coders but humanities - the performing arts, history, anthropology, english etc. - are what make life worth living. It is how we relate to each other. You can have the "necessities" of life - food, shelter, air etc. but without love and the unmeasureables - it doesn't mean anything. Babies die without interaction, love, stories - what the humanities provide - even if they get food etc. necessities of life. You need everything to be fully human. And I do think that is part of our problems today. Mental health is in bad shape, etc. because we don't value the humanities enough.
If the humanities are supposed to promote critical thinking, wouldn't Socrates have said that critical thinkers are regarded as enemies of the state by the those in power?
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People in STEM think the humanities are a colossal waste of time .. just ask them …
My observations were that big-picture thinkers were more likely to study the "soft" disciplines, while detail-oriented thinkers liked "hard" sciences. Neither is right or wrong.
As an ex-English/philosophy major who eventually became a software engineer I'd dispute the idea that the humanities can teach humanity any better than a mathematician can.
Perhaps other civilzations emphasize the humanities and that's why we have the Fermi Paradox.
I doubt Putin was interested in the humanities .....
That is a joke, right?
“Dead white guys have nothing to teach us.” Ok, giant eye roll. Yeah, they do. First of all, not all the great novelists read today were white guys. But to say that genius observers and interpreters of the human condition have nothing to teach because of their skin color is patently absurd. These writers were geniuses who were far better than the average person at artfully conveying profound questions of human existence, emotions and ethics, and to say we can just blithely disregard their insights because they were white is quite honestly hubris beyond belief and belies an unbearable sense of entitlement among people today where everyone feels their opinion is just as valid as other, smarter, more expert and informed opinions. People have A LOT to learn from dead, white, articulate geniuses.
Oh boy, have I got some comments. ✊🏻✊🏻
The Humanities died when the worthless professors allowed the pirate administrators to turn their courses into schlock classes that are impossible to fail. Courses that are impossible to fail are great for retention.
"Iam invideo magistro tuo, qui te tanta mercede, quantam iam proferam, nihil sapere doceat."
A very unconvincing case for why it is bad that the humanities are disappearing. If I understood correctly: young people grapple with questions that have no single, definite answer; the humanities also deals with these same questions (which seems to be necessarily true given that at least some of the authors are young and that probably it's not only young people who grapple with these questions); therefore, studying the humanities is good. Huh? Formally, the argument is: if someone faces a challenge, any platform that presents (not even solves, but just presents) those challenges is worthy of prolonged study. How ironic that this purportedly best argument for studying the humanities is, formally speaking, an invalid argument (conclusion doe snot follow from the premises): why is just the presentation of other people's thoughts about these challenges worthy of study? This is not to say that they can't be worthy of study, but, given that the proponent of the argument concedes that these questions have no answer, clearly additional argument is needed here.
Anyone heard of the Hierarchy of Needs. Creation of a dog eat dog society leads to a lack of general safety and consequent extractive capitalism, which protects it's false narrative of freedom etc. So of course the lack of humanities as a choice is a rational yet factually misplaced end point of what will create personal and social safety. We all get what we allow to be created and the Humanities have been too much in the privileged camp for too long and have not noticed nor spoken out about, the failure of the economic culture which creates universal anxiety and resentment in the populace.
Give me a house and then I’ll start caring about the humanities