The reincarnation of Gandalf and his conversation with Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas has always been one of my favorite parts of The Two Towers. We are given two interesting clues to the differences between Gandalf the White and the Grey. First, Gwahir seems to think Gandalf has lost a lot of weight :) since their last encounter. He thinks that Gandalf would float on the breeze like a feather (Gandalf does not want to test this theory). Second, before they head to Rohan, Aragorn takes a long look at Gandalf and senses something different about his old friend. After agreeing to go with him, Aragorn says that, sure they will set off together, but that Gandalf could get there before him if he wished, that, he could go wherever he wished quicker than Aragorn. Does Aragorn sense that Gandalf the White has been released from the original restrictions of the Istari? If Gandalf can fly or teleport, he never chooses to do so. Does he have all of the native powers of Olorin the Maia returned to him? As with most things Tolkien, a lot is implied but never spelled out. I would also say that along with the power upgrade comes a change in roles. Gandalf the Grey is a spy and a diplomat. Who snuck into Dol Guldor twice and lived to tell the tale? Gandalf the Grey. Who is tasked to sneak into Mordor with a very small crew of the Free Folk? Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the White, however, takes on the leadership of the resistance against Sauron and do the job that Saruman has forsaken. Orthanc should have been manned by Gondor or better still, Dunlendings who had been welcomed into the Free Folk, their animosity with Rohan and the Dunedain resolved by Saruman's diplomacy and good will. Gondor and Rohan should have been armed and armored with the skill that only a servant of Aule could provide and relations with the elves and dwarves of Middle Earth should have been nurtured and encouraged. Alas, Saruman the White fell from his high calling and chose to squander his time and resources pursuing personal power and followed his enemy down into darkness leaving Gandalf to pick up the reigns and unite the West against the Shadow. I'm ever curious about what could have been if all of the Istari had fulfilled the roles given them by the Valar.
@@raydavison4288 - Matt makes good videos. Still, I don't like comparing channels - especially if they are quite different! I don't think Matthew's videos are similar to mine at all and he certainly branches out into other fiction. I like that he doesn't just do histories or bios as well though, and likes to go more in-depth. Need more channels like his to be honest.
@@TheRedBook: Your videos aren't like Matt's & you are both really good at what you do. There are other channels on TH-cam that are also very good. They're just not as good as The Red Book or Dork Lord's and that's the idea that I meant to convey. 😉
I got one but I am not sure I want to see a video on it. lol When Niniel throws herself into Cabed-en-Aras, is she 8-9 months pregnant or did she give birth to Turin and her child before she killed herself? I worked out the math on my own. She could have given birth to a child as early as a couple of months before her death. I would love to see what your research comes up with. I based my calculations on the Silmarillion passage.
Brought to mind by the topic of this video: - Had the knowledge of the Endless Stair been lost to the dwarves, and/or was the only entrance to it in the now flooded lower parts of Moria - otherwise it could have been an escape route for the remainder of Balin's company. - Inconsistency? There are shafts bringing in light and air to the upper chambers of Moria. Why couldn't the remainder of Balin's company use these to escape? Too narrow and not enough time to widen them (cutting climbing foot and hand holds should be easy for dwarves)? - Was the Endless Stair repaired during the 4th Age by the dwarves? Sad that such an interesting architectural feature was destroyed.
What would have changed or how do you believe things would have worked out if Sauron was taken prisoner by the Elves or had been sent to Valinor instead of being taken back to Numenor?
Your videos are wonderful. I thought I had already watched everything YT had to offer on Tolkien lore but I was glad to be wrong when I discovered you’re channel. I like how you keep close to the texts and far from the movies. Your knowledge of the ALL the text ls is impressive as is your ability to pull themes together from throughout the entire body of work. With that in mind, I’ll ask a couple of questions that I hope will be like pulling on a thread that unravels a larger cloth. 1) Why could Yavanna not create the two trees again? What are the limits of the power of the Valar and what is the nature of creation in Tolkien’s world? Along similar lines, why could Feanor not crate the Silmarils again, or Sauraon remake the one ring? 2) What is the role of the Ainur on Arda? are they bound to it forever, having entered into it? Can Olerin leave Arda after his task is done? Could Melkor flee forever? Is Manwe bound to Ea? Until when? I hope you undertake one of these! Thank you for your work. I find your videos peaceful to listen to and thoughtful in their content.
Thanks Alex, just need them all to do it now :D . I have 5 playlists now created, so I am in a good place going forward with plenty of content to come.
This part in the books always gives me so many questions Like, did he go to the timeless halls, or did Eru made him appear before him What are or were the faceless creatures in the dark How long was he gone, one can say a few days or a few ages depending on where he went Also worth noting, it took Sauron allot of time at some point to regain a physical body, Gandalf also had a physical for quiet some time... I am not sure he simply could make another one in quick notice The things he had forgotten he relearned anew, I would like to know more about that as well ( probably he was sent with more authority, but to what degree... the grey and white are not the same ) So many questions to ask, so sad that Tolkien isn't alive anymore Anyways, love the video keep it up :D !!!
Cheers, Joe. I think with the playlists I have now, I basically have any type of video covered. Means I am not stuck doing one thing over and over. The idea behind Q&A videos was to do shorter ones between the longer videos...but it ended up near 10 minutes anyway cause I don't shut up :/
I never thought he died until a few years ago, but now I’m on the fence a bit. I think Eru pulled Gandalf’s spirit out of the confides of Arda. Eru seems to favour Olorin more than the other Maiar. He therefore died, but death had a different meaning. Gandalf also returns more powerful, when the Ainur usually are weakened after they endure a death in the physical world.
Thank you for your work! Your delivery is very scholarly and measured, the clarity of sound and transition in the videos are excellent. Lastly, the art and rolling text used are fantastic Again….thank you
Thanks for that feedback. A few seem to think the voice is too quiet or not 'engaging' enough. Always nice to read other people saying they enjoy it. Cheers!
@@TheRedBook you’re welcome Nah You keep going This works But if I had to suggest anything….always use the voice actor or change your voice like you do with Gandalf It’s a greater experience
@@tscarb - Yes, when it is The Lord of the Rings I am quoting from, I am able to use the change of voice. Unfortuantely, for every other source - it will be me! :D
Yes, Gandalf the Grey died. He died on the mountaintop, and he wasn't sent to the Halls of Mandos but was called directly to the presence of Eru Iluvatar, who empowered him and sent him back. This was the second time Eru directly intervened in the affairs of Middle earth. And..Gandalf was not the same being when he returned, but far..far more powerful.
Gandalf's spirit was removed from his body, and his body ceased to function, eg: He died. The spirit returned to Eru who then willed it back into his body, eg: he was resurrected. Not overly complicated given JRRT's religious beliefs. Saruman had been seduced by evil and fallen "from grace". Gandalf was sent "back" to replace him, in his new "white" form, to render the aid the Istari were originally sent to Middle Earth to give.
Thank you! It was always my goal from the start to follow the material. I still speculate and share a lot of my own ideas but I try to make it clear when I'm doing that.
Really enjoying these videos. I’m not of a mind to try and unpick all of Tolkien’s ‘inconsistencies’ with ‘logic’, but one thing has always troubled me about the Istari, and Gandalf’s battle with the balrog in particular. We are told in the Silmarillion, and it is established elsewhere, that they have ‘physical bodies’ which are subject to weariness etc, although perhaps they are a little more hardy than an ‘ordinary old man’ (I think the passage in the Silmarillion uses the phrase “old but vigorous”) - how did Gandalf’s body survive the fall from the bridge, the burning whip of the balrog around his legs, the deep water (drowning), hypothermia when he emerged from Moria, etc? In comparison, Saruman appears to deflate like a balloon when Grima deals him his death blow.
As much as I love his work ther ARE some inconsistencies (especially in the Silmarillion, TLotR is muuch better ). I also do not confuse the appearance of the Istari with ordinary weak old man as some guys see it. Yes, they do *look* like it and yes they experience hunger and weariness, but I guess that is it probably all - its mostly appearance. I guess it is a way to keep them empathic to the men, elves and dwarfs and (at least in Gandalfs case it worked) also humble. As you pointed out correctly, how would a fragile old man endure the fall, the fire and nights and days of constant fighing with a Balrog of Morgoth?
I always saw it as he traveled to the halls of Mandos and it was decided by Eru that he be resurrected and given more of his original knowledge and power to achieve his mission. He was given a freer hand to act when needed. Given the title of the white to signify his rank among the istari and show the elves that the Valar have placed their trust in him.
I would agree with that if Tolkien hadn't said that Gandalf passed out of thought and time. Outside of the jurisdiction of the Valar, essentially. The way you explain it would be how I'd view it otherwise.
Hello 👋 I was wondering if you could comment on the will power of Isildor. If I remember correctly Isildor says something about having thrown the one ring into a fire to see the elvish writing when Gandalf was researching it in Gondor. Isildor had the will power to throw it in the fire which Frodo did not have. He had it for about two years or so before heading back north and meeting his doom. Did he use the power of the ring to build Gondor after the war? It seems poetic that he could have used the power of the ring to build the city that would stand against its power at the end. At the Gladden fields I almost get the impression that the ring was running away from Isildor. Just a fun thought I had and was wondering how I am wrong hahaha. Thank you for all the amazing content!
Sorry it took me a while to see this comment Daryl. Isildur is able to see the writing on the ring because he says it is still hot from being on the finger of Sauron, which itself was scorched. It is here that he talks of examining the ring and believing it to be precious, not wishing for harm to come to it. Like Frodo, he is already unable to imagine damaging it. As for how Isildur used it. That's a bit of a mystery. He may not have held it long enough or attempt to use it in the time he had it. It's secrets not unlocked. It seems he may have just kept it, a new token of his house, and a precious heirloom - rather than realising the full potential of such a ring. I do agree with your thoughts on the ring abandoning Isildur. Maybe at that opportunity there was a chance to return to Sauron through one of the Orcs being drawn to it. Unfortunately, the ring sank in the water and was left waiting for a very long time instead!
Excellent! thank you explaining that. Here’s another dumb question you’ll be able to knock out of the park haha. I was thinking about the time period when greenwood the great became Mirkwood. Did the spiders congregate there because Sauron set up there or the other way around and Sauron set up shop there because he knew the spiders were in southern greenwood
I think it's the proper word to use. I say that because there was a direct intervention through Eru to heal, enhance, and return Gandalf to Middle-earth. It went beyond what would be the natural process for Gandalf, the healing of his spirit after his death. Perhaps reincarnated is an even better word to use, since he is literally placed back in a physical body as one of the Incarnates...what do you think?
@@TheRedBook As a Christian, I personally use reincarnation to mean a soul of a person who had died entering a fetus and being born. The dictionary equates reincarnation with resurrection, but I think resurrection has to be the same soul entering the same dead body and that body coming to life again. I think Gandalf's death and resurrection are a perfect example of the Biblical resurrection of Jesus Christ.
@@TheRedBook hi there new subscriber here. Loving these vids. Ive got back into Tolkiens books again recently and I'm not ashamed to say I'm looking forward to the rings of power. I was wondering do you do the voice overs in these awesome vids? 👍From dundee🏴
Hey, is that the same Dundee I live in?😅 Thanks for checking out the channel. I do the narration but the book narration is not me :D I credit that in the description.
I'm going to be somewhat critical. Not of this video, but of Tolkien himself. And I do this as a fan of all his work, though he meant for it to be published or not. Lots of words are thrown at this question. This video doesn't represent a unique conversation after all. Did Gandalf die? When it comes to the "Super Natural", all the words that one can hurl at the question become nothing more or less than semantics. What is "Super Natural"? Of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil Or in other words, that which exists outside of the tangible natural universe. The supernatural represents a plane of existence that beings of the natural universe by definition (that's hugely important) cannot experience. In fact, beings of the natural world are SO FAR removed from the supernatural, that we can't "Know" anything about the supernatural whatsoever. For that matter, we can't even know if a supernatural plane of existence actually exists. It's entire conception is a product of natural beings that reside firmly within the natural universe and is based solely on conjecture. It's not as though the supernatural has made its existence known to the natural world. Remember, by definition, the supernatural is "existence beyond the visible observable universe". If the supernatural made its presence known, it would not be beyond the observable universe. But this begs the age old question. If the supernatural plane exists but can by definition, have no observably tangible effects on the natural universe, can we not act in full confidence then as though the supernatural simply doesn't exist? Because again, by definition, it literally DOESN'T exist within the natural universe. Tolkien being a religious man has always suffered from a case of wanting to have his cake and getting to eat it also. If I'm the most generous, Tolkien simply doesn't understand what "Supernatural" means. And this leads to all of the paradoxical problems that he gets around by simply by ignoring that they exist at all. Tolkien would have you believe in his legendarium that the supernatural plane of which Eru is supposed to exist, can and does have tangible effects in the natural world. In fact, this tracks perfectly well with his real life religious beliefs. The Christian God is of the supernatural world in that "it" transcends literally everything in the natural world. Yet, God has a direct link to, and has tangible effects on, the natural world. This is the very definition of an oxymoron. These two things, the supernatural and the natural, are mutually exclusive by definition. If the Supernatural is not completely separated from the natural, than it's not "Supernatural". It's just plane old natural. Thus, the Christian god if it exists, and Eru in Tolkien's legendarium, are not supernatural beings. They are of the natural universe. So, let's bring this back to the legendarium. I think the real question concerns what the tangible effects of Gandalf's "Death" are in the natural universe. His physical corporeal body is destroyed. His spirit returns to Eru, is endowed with greater wisdom, power and a broader mandate, before then being sent back to Middle Earth with a new corporeal form, with virtually all of his memories intact. What exactly does death mean in the universe in which Middle Earth exists? For Elves and for the so called "Gods", when their corporeal forms are destroyed, they can and do come back to a new corporeal form within middle earth with their experiences and memories intact. This all happens within the "Natural Universe" by definition. You can tell because the evidence is Tangible. But what happens when a humans corporeal from is destroyed? They can't, by the arbitrary rules of Eru, return to middle earth. Eru shunts their spirits off someplace else. We don't know where, but that doesn't mean that we can't make some positive and factual claims. Either Humans are endowed with a spirit, or they are not. I think by definition in the Tolkien universe, Humans have a spirit. And as we have established that Eru is not supernatural, we can only conclude that Eru has shunted human spirits to some other place within the natural universe. Assuming that memories and experiences are an essential part of ones spirit (after all, what are we exactly if we are not our experiences and our memories), and assuming that these spirits will be trotted out once again in some new board game of Eru's, than the only logical conclusion is that Elves, Humans and "Gods" alike do not die. In Tolkien's universe, the only thing that CAN die by definition, are the non essential and altogether disposable corporeal meat sacs in which the spirit manifests itself in the natural world. And in every case we know of in the Tolkien Legendarium where elves or Gandalf returned to a corporeal form, even their former meat sacks were reconstituted for the crying out load! There is wiggle room around how and when a sprite can return to a corporeal form, but this does not constitute death by any normal conventions. In Real Life, Death is a one way street. There is no returning to a Corporeal From. If we have a spirit and it's reconstituted someplace else in the natural universe, there is no way we will ever know that back here on earth. That I suppose is a good enough definition of death to be getting on with. How did Gandalf change through Death? I'm not asking "What" changed. I'm literally asking "How" did he change. Eru endowed him with new,,,,,,,, stuff and sent him back with a new Corporeal form that bore an uncanny resemblance to his former Corporeal form. But Eru didn't HAVE to change Gandalf in any way. Eru could have sent him back exactly as he was previously. And I frankly don't understand what difference it makes how Eru changed Gandalf one way or another with regards to the question. At the end of the day, for all tangible intents and purposes, Gandalf in fact, did not die. His spirit was not destroyed, It returned to a new corporeal vessel with his memories and experiences more or less intact. He wasn't gone for more than a month. In fact, he returned stronger than he was before. Plus, he took out (permanently mind you) another Maiar exactly like himself, that was an agent for evil who was basically an insurmountable force by any power left in middle earth save for Gandalf (and probably Glorfindel). There wasn't even any down side to Gandalf losing his meat sac, just benefit. All the sophistry in the world won't change THOSE facts. And Tolkien says this wasn't "Cheating"??? The word that applies here is delusional. I want to go one step further. Lets for the sake of it say that Gandalf really did truly die and his spirit was forever removed from the natural universe never to return. For this to have any actual consequence, Gandalf must be irreplaceable. But for a number of reasons, Gandalf isn't exactly irreplaceable. Eru himself could step in. It was he who destroyed Numenore and threw the mountains down on top of Arpharazan. But for unknown reasons, Eru couldn't or wouldn't intervene here personally. Because ain't that just like a GOD???? But Eru isn't alone. He's got all of his most powerful children in Aman. Melkor, mightiest of all the Ainu, and Manwe was his brother, equal in if not subtler in power. Could not Manwe intervene? After all, He is the king of all the "Gods" in middle earth. Surely he has not only the power, but the mandate to shepherd middle earth. But for unknown reasons. He won't step in and lift a finger either. Like father like son no? But Manwe and crew did send the istari. Effectively, crappier versions of themselves. Surely there were more than 5 Miar available? What happened to Tulkas and Orome? There could have been, and probably were, loads of other generic "Angels" that could have stepped into Gandalf's place. Eru could have hand picked any of his children that dwelt with him outside the physical world of arda and sent them in. Eru could have hand crafted a new angelic being purpose built for the task. Heck, Manwe and crew expelled Melkors spirit from Arda in the end, after allowing him to have a second go mind. Are you telling me that Eru couldn't reach and snag Sauron out of his bed sheets and boot his arse out to some distant part of the void for a permanent time out? Or how about just snapping his ethereal fingers and erasing him from existence. "I brought you into this world and I'll take you back out" style. The thing I'm pointing out here is that the only "Stakes" that there ever were, were the stakes created by and arbitrarily acted upon by, Eru. At the end of the day, Just like "real life" creator gods, every foul thing that ever took place in middle earth was the result of Eru and HIS creations, his actions or his non actions. From the very beginning, from a time before arda was manifested, Eru, who created Melkor, had evidence of the malice that lay within Melkor. In fact, Eru, as the creator, arguably created Melkor that way. But all the same, Eru was certainly responsible for allowing Melkor to descend into arda. He certainly stood by while Melkor systematically raped arda and torchered countless souls. I find it comical that he personally intervened to destroy numanor and destroy Arpharazons army, but he was perfectly happy to stand by and watch First Melkor and then Sauron wreak untold pain and misery for literal ages. If that isn't a direct parallel to the Christian creator god, than I am missing something. Look, I love Tolkien's universe as much as anyone. But lets not pretend that there are not a boatload of very problematic contradictions and loopholes in the story. And as far as anyone in the natural universe is concerned, no, Gandalf didn't die.
It always amuses me that George RR Martin sites the resurrection of Gandalf as a "cop-out" or "mistake" in my opinion shows an epic misunderstanding of the story... any thoughts on George and his stuff? I don't think highly of him personally, I'm curious what you think.
It's the same with the fascination about Aragorn's politics as a King - it's not the point of the story. I have read the first two books of ASOIAF but didn't return for the 3rd. It didn't grab me at all.
"'Saruman!' he cried, and his voice grew in power and authority. 'Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, *who has returned from death.* You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.'" (emphasis added) That would seem to answer the question diegetically, *assuming* Gandalf can be trusted. This could all be just marketing to make himself look good.
Good one. There are lots of consistency problems in Tolkien and people just have to accept it. Why does Eru bring Gandalf back but do nothing else to aid the cause against Sauron? Why did Sauron not seek the aid of the Balrog? What good are palantiri if they can't tell you a balrog is lost in Khazad Dum
I suppose the first one could be answered by saying he didn't have to do anything else against Sauron because he sent Gandalf back :D . I get your point though!
The cool thing is that Gandalf didn't run from Balrog. He fought him. I think the movie is great in how Sir Ian showed his reaction once he realized Balrog was coming for them. He looked not only gravely concerned, but he had a healthy and respectful near of Balrog ..just as he had a respectful fear of Sauron. And since he's Gandalf, he cannot suffer Balrog to live. A being as good and holy as Gandalf can't simply walk away from Gandalf. Sorry for the rambling. I love that part of the book and the way it was portrayed in the movie version of The Two Towers is pretty much the most epic battle I've seen between two Maia.
I have two question related to how the Wizards were embodied - did their bodies age while they were in Middle Earth? Also, given that they looked like old men, did they experience any of the issues (aches and pains, frailty) associated with older bodies? I’ve always wondered how physical (and subject to the ravages of time and stress) Tolkien considered their forms to be.
Good questions Rebecca. The Silmarillion tells us the following: "In the likeness of Men they appeared, old but vigorous, and they changed little with the years, and aged but slowly, though great cares lay on them; great wisdom they had, and many powers of mind and hand." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age They did age but very slowly. Frodo notices Gandalf looking a little older, probably through the pressure of what he had discovered about the ring but it would have been unnoticed by most. As for issues. Unfinished Tales in the essay "The Istari" clearly states that they were clad in real bodies of Men, real and not feigned. They were subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain. We also see Gandalf in The Fellowship of the Ring need a rest of his feet. and he does sleep in Two The Towers.
I am not as sure about the bodies of the Istari being "real and not feigned" as The Red Book said. Sure, there is a passage that tells us that they were exposed to weariness and pain, but I wonder about 1.the degree and also 2.about how much of an obstacle that really was for them. I write about this because Gandalf fights the Balrog for days and nights, from the bottom of the abyss to the peak of the mountains, after being whipped by flame and after the fall from the bridge.. I mean, come on that does not sound like an ordinary old mens body AT ALL. Also I strongly suspect that weariness and pain is something that is reality for EVERY Ainur not only the Istari: think about Morgoth and his wounds when fighing Fingolfin where he received a limp that would never heal.
I thought Sauron died the first time in the Silmarillion when Huan (maybe my favorite Tolkien characters) killed him to protect Luthien from him. Huan held him as he Sauron fled shifting though many forms but could not prevail or escape . The fight ended with Sauron as undead. it never specifically said that Sauron was slain, but the description of the fight is telling.
"Then Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form; but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly. Ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Lúthien came to him, and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: ‘There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.’" He is threatened with disembodiment if he doesn't yield mastery of the tower. He does and Luthien and Huan honour their word and let him go. He changes into a vampire shape and flees, wounded. He isn't slain though. A hint that he wasn't slain is that he is dripping blood from his throat, which is where he was being held down. A spirit wouldn't have that.
With the Balrog, we don't really know for sure. Though, we have examples of fallen Maiar 'dying' and it seems likely the spirit of the Balrog would fade to the point it couldn't bother the physical world again. It's mysterious though. As for Smaug, we don't even know what Dragons really are, to be honest. We don't know what happens to a lot of creatures when they die - Ents, Eagles, etc.
I have an Idea of the topic "Why Eru allowed evil to endure and not interfered?" I know the answer but it seems that many people don't understand the idea of Free Will which Tolkien took from Christianity as he was it's faithfull worhsiper and I think it fits for the philosophical purpuse of the channel😉
That's definitely coming, and I'm glad you asked it. I have scripts related to Melkor's redemption, Eru "regretting" creating him, and the Problem of Evil. The hard part is working out how to organise it all for a video or videos. This kind of topic is definitely on my radar though :) .
I can’t believe it was ever in doubt that Gandalf died physically! Although the metaphysics of his resurrection and return do warrant debate. What do you think of G.R.R. Martin’s famous proclamation that Gandalf should have stayed dead? I think you and Tolkien’s letters both do explain very well why his death and return were not cheap, that they were in fact handled with the importance and nuance they deserved.
I think that's the problem for a lot of people - the physical nature of Gandalf in Middle-earth, separating that from the spiritual. Too often you'll read "They can't die" - but as I say in the video, and as you know, death isn't non existence. Characters can die multiple times. I disagree with Martin, and his approach to Tolkien's work in general. He doesn't seem to view Gandalf's death, or the work, from a mythological or legendary view. He wants to know Aragorn's tax policies. To me, that's like asking about Hrothgar's policies in Beowulf. It's completely not what the tale is about and is vastly unimportant. It's no surprise that he ends up feeling Gandalf's death is cheap because (to him) it seems like there are no consequences, it's some sort of get out of jail card. Something like The New Shadow would probably appeal to him more than The Lord of the Rings...
@@TheRedBook Agreed on both paragraphs. If one looks up Martin’s life on Wikipedia, it is clear he is a creative and imaginative chap. A Song Of Ice And Fire is the zenith of a lifetime of writing stories, from screenplays to novels. So why he can’t appreciate Middle-Earth for the epic medieval romance it was meant to be will forever escape me…
@@MistaGify - It does kind of seem that he's taken what he liked about it and ditched what he didn't like in order to create his own work. Do you like ASOIAF? I only managed first 2 books. It's not really for me. I prefer the legendary style of LotR!
@@TheRedBook I have neither read the books nor watched the show. I want him to FINISH his series before I start! Even Tolkien managed to finish Hobbit and LOTR, although he left so much behind.
Right here, Kathryn. Or on Twitter, if you tag me. I basically get notified about most comments on TH-cam and will keep a note of what I'm asked. If you want to be more direct, there's an email on my about section that is exclusively for this channel as well :)
That's pretty much what happens when those given the choice make the choice to be of the kindred of Men. It's not that they are rejecting being an Elf, it's that they are accepting the gift of Men. Tolkien said "Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them..." Very specific circumstances though surrounding the line of Earendil and Elwing. Your regular Elf does not get the choice to accept or receive the gift of Men. So, Elrond rejected it and was of the kindred of Elves. His brother Elros accepted it and was of the kindred of Men. So, his decendants are of his kindred but Elrond's received the choice because even though he was an Elf, his children should have the choice to accept that gift.
The way I see it is, like when Sauron lost his body following the fall of Numenor (reduced to a shade until he could recover - but never again could he take on a handsome shape), Gandalf the Grey lost his body and when he returned as Gandalf the White, the Valar gave him a new body.
The Valar didn't send Gandalf back, Eru did, and he returned to his old body... Obviously renewed and healed, etc. He recovered his sword and Ring of Power and returned to where he had died. Makes sense.
@@TheRedBook But evidently Gandalf wasn't returned to his old body, renewed or otherwise. Whatever he is, is fundamentally different to Gandalf the Grey. From Gwaihir: "A burden you have been ... but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind." - this is very much contrary to what we know of the istari, who are human bodies to some extent, that sounds more like a spirit taking on a form. From Gandalf himself: "Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf. ... you may still call me Gandalf ...". - evidently a change in 'being' has taken place. "I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten. I can see many things far off ..." - indicating he has likely been restored with the native knowledge of Olorin. "Get up my good Gimli! No blame to you and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. ... Dangerous! And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." - That is also very much indicating he is no longer istar, he is impervious to mortal weapons. The second part of the quote also discredits the idea he has been promoted to some kind of position previously held by Saruman, he is now the second most powerful being in middle earth, just as you'd expect in a heirarchy of the native spirits Olorin and Mairon. I think the most likely option here is Eru has dissolved the Heren Istarion and returned Olorin in his native form, so why does he act more or less like an upgraded Gandalf? Because that is Olorin's nature, he is not a natural warrior or dominator of wills, he uses his wisdom and understanding to aide, he was sent in the first place because of his humble nature. His death also seems fundamentally different from Sauron/Saruman etc, Olorin went somewhere else, Sauron is merely disembodied, Olorin seems to become disconnected from Ea itself, existing in a region without time or 'information'.
@@lachyt5247 I disagree. This is a common theory I've read on other sites and I don't think what you say is evident or "most likely" but I'll have to cover that as a response video at some point in the future.
@@TheRedBook Thanks for the response, I look forward to your future take on Gandalf the white. It's not something I've seen covered on youtube to anything beyond the surface level so it would be very welcome in your usual well researched and insightful manner.
Now you have me curious about Melian. Was she incarnate? If she was, did she die when she disappeared? If she wasn't, does that raise questions about her ability to have a child?
Just a question on your opinion. Being because Iru intervened sending Gandalf back and not by the means of Manwe, the other Valar or through the halls of Mandos, wouldn't that make him equal to the Valar or even a new child of Illuvatar? It's just a question i would have asked Tolkien were he still alive and just want to know what you think.
I understand your point. It can be a difficult concept (especially explaining it). The Valar and the Maiar (all of the Ainur) are of the mind of Eru. They are all of the Ainur but some are specifically lofty enough to be known as the Valar and the rest are of the Maiar. There's no case of any "upgrading" because they are distinctly apart in strength of spirit. When Gandalf died, he could have recovered over time, with a great deal of patience and will - Eru sped up that process greatly and even enhanced Gandalf - but enhanced him to be far closer to how he was in the West as Olorin - the Maia. In the flesh of a man, his wisdom and power was dimmed. Eru basically let the strength of spirit shine through greater. Gandalf the White is far closer to Olorin in nature than Gandalf the Grey. While it is possible that through his experience, Gandalf had his spirit strengthened, he would never be something more than a Maia. We have cases of others growing in stature but they don't change their nature. Glorfindel in death became "Nigh as great" as the Maiar but he was still an Elf. Even Frodo grows greatly in spirit through his experience but he is still a Hobbit.
@@TheRedBook that makes sense to a point. There is several things though that would lead me to believe contrary. The Valar and Maiar are both Ainur with the Valar the more powerful than the Maiar. In sense, they are the only different in abilities and wisdom given. Glorfindel was sent back by Manwe from Aman whole but not enhanced because no Valar has that ability. There is 1 that does enhance other than Eru and that's the 1 ring. It made the Nine basically a lower form of Maiar. Sauron himself with the 1 ring was feared by the greatest of the Istari and eventually took council of the will of the ring. Saromon's lust for the power the ring would have given him caused him to dehance, not sure if that's a weird but it fits better than devolve. Not even the Valar could do this. And Sarumon had never laid eyes upon the ring. He only knew of it through descriptions from ancient scrolls. That also make me wonder when Sauron said he was Melkor returned, if he was in fact trekking the truth as long as he was wearing the 1 ring. The council of the ring wouldn't even send the ring across the sea or of fear of the power of the rings will. We know that the Valar could be corrupted. Only old Tom seemed to not be affected by it. Then there's the resurrection of Gandalf which is beyond the measures of limitations of power that the Valar possessed. He passed from all time and thought. He walked long roads that we refused to mention. He was returned to his body in 19 days but he was walking with Eru where time did not exist., or only existed as Eru measured it. He could have been beyond the void with Eru for equivalent of many ages in middle Earth and learned many things that possibly Manwe was not blessed with. Tolkien never described the power Gandalf was enhanced with other that his power was enhanced greatly. We don't see the true power of the Istari not because of the form they were in but because they were forbidden to. That is why Gandalf broke the staff of Sarumon to limit the power Sarumon and severing the connection of his spirit through the staff. This in itself showed some of the power he returned with for that was even beyond the power of the Maiar. Gandalfs sacrifice was also Gandalf's failure and the failure of the Valar yet the sacrifice in itself was selfless thinking only of the success of the fellowship and the wellbeing of the children of Illuvatar. In giving his life and failing his task, he might have never come out from the halls of Mandos. The nature of his sacrifice put him above the Valar in this sense. Eru can sing everything out of existence as well as create new. Just as he gave life to the Dwarves. Gandalf was reborn as a child is born, naked symbolizing he was no longer Ainur but something else entirely. He also stated that he was sent back for a brief time until his task is done. He may have ferried Frodo and Bilbo across the great sea but he wasn't going to himself step foot in the undying lands. Instead he is to go back to Eru. This is strictly my opinion of the few scraps i have read from Tolkien's letters and unfinished writings but i think that Gandalf was no longer a servant of the secret flame but of the flame itself.
My question is did Thorin's Bane die? What happens to Balrog after Gandalf smote it on the mountain side? Did it to go back to the Halls of Mandos, to be judged by Manwe for the crimes it committed or it simply like Sauron and Saruman a shadow of their former selves with no form or power?
I always wonder what happened to Gandalf after his return home to Valinor. Would he assume his spirit form again and not openly show himself around the elves, would he have a special place of honour amongst the inhabitants of Valinor or would he wonder around unassumingly as before, spreading pleasant dreams and visions.
I've been very interested lately in the dualism between mind and body in Tolkien and how it translates to Sauron's relationship to the One Ring and Morgoth's relationship to Arda. It seems Sauron and Morgoth are attached to their respective "rings" which sort of provide an anchor to their spiritual being. Thinking about this and what you say in this video about death in Tolkien being this separation between mind and body, what can we make of Man's Gift? What's special about it is the destiny of the spirit once separated, right?
Yes, I think you are right there. It's 'simply' about the spirit itself not being bound to the body of Arda. Both Dark Lords sacrifice a great part of themselves to tie their 'essence' to the flesh of Arda, all in order to gain some control over it. The gift of man is that when their bodies die, they are not going to be bound to this world. They will be able to pass to the next place, outside the circles of the physical world.
I'm not sure that we can say Sauron died in the destruction of Numenor or when Gil-Galad and Elendil fought him, not in the same way Gandalf died. This is because Sauron was not actually bound to a body in the same way. He could no longer take a fair form, but nothing in Tolkien's writings that I've seen indicates that Sauron was tied to his body and could not set it aside and walk "unclad", as was common for Valar and other Maiar to do However, it seems like Gandalf and the other Istari are bound to their bodies in a way unusual for Maiar. I don't remember if I actually read this, or if it simply seems to ring true to me, but I was under the impression that for their mission, the Istari were required by the Valar to (1) set aside some power, and (2) be truly tied to the bodies they inhabited - perhaps only temporarily. Perhaps the idea was they would restore their power and ability to walk unclad after their mission was successful. And at no time do we see the Istari mention being able to walk unclad, or see it done in the books; the impression is that Gandalf and the other Wizards are semi-permanently bound to their bodies, in a way that Maiar are generally not. After all, there was precedent for such temporary binding to a body for Maiar; when Melian married Thingol and gave birth to Luthien, she was bound to her body by virtue of the man she loved and the daughter she gave birth to in that body. Not until both Thingol and Luthien died did she again walk unclad and return to Aman in the West. So there is something to Sauron losing his body through violence, and that having an effect on his ability to form a new one; when a Maiar lost a body through violence, it was a more involved process to form a new one, if I remember right. I think it was said it took some time for Sauron to form a new body after losing his in Numenor (and he outright lost the ability to make a fair form) and then again it took most of the Third Age for Sauron to form a new body after having his body slain at the battle of the Last Alliance, because not only was his slain through violence, but he also had the ring taken from him by force when Isildur cut it from his hand. But even still, Sauron would have had the ability to walk unclad - I've seen nothing that indicates he lost this ability the way Morgoth had. Gandalf had set that ability aside, however, and was tied to his body in a semi-permanent fashion. So Sauron losing his body was traumatic, like it always was for Maiar to lose a body through violence, but it was truly death for Gandalf. Sauron reformed a new body through his own power and will, and it took time; Gandalf didn't form a new body through his own will. His body was healed and he was restored to it through the intervention of Iluvatar.
@@TheRedBook am i also right in thinking gandalf died on the top of the mountain above moria? The movie gives the impression that they somehow pass through some sort of portal when they hit the underground lake and that they pass into something like hell thats under the earth. But the book gives me the impression gandalf pursues the balrog up to the top of the mountain and fight up there
Yeah they fall from the bridge, and go deeper than where anyone else has been before, Gandalf pursues the Balrog, and they then climb again and reach the Endless Stair. This reaches all the way up to Durin's Tower at the peak of Celebdil. There they finally end their battle.
@@TheRedBook Thanks, that's what I thought. Amazon could have made a great TV series in the East with Dwarves and Dragons and maybe Hobbits and Kamul and Blue Wizards and Sauron trying to control it all, not to mention a U.N. cast of characters and sexual IDs and no one would have minded. Instead, if leaks are true, it will not be Tolkien's Arda, but AMAZON's.😞
How is Gandalf the White different from Gandalf the Grey? I have seen some interesting comments; one person said, GandalfGrey was a diplomat/spy vs. GandalfWhite who was a general/commander. But if Gandalf the Grey had lived, I think he would have taken the same role. It's hinted there's more power and wisdom, but I didn't find Gandalf the Grey to be underpowered or unwise so I'm not sure. Yes I know Saruman bested him but was it a lack of wisdom or that he carried faith in his friends (faith that he keeps in the rest of the fellowship?). It is also interesting that you talk about sacrifice... this is something I saw in the movie first but believe it is also backed up in the books. I don't think Gandalf the Grey's death was a sacrifice (he knows he'll respawn) but his sacrifice is letting Frodo take the the burden of the ring. When you watch it, you see how his face darkens when Frodo confirms the markings on the ring. Also that time after Bilbo drops the ring and he waits for Frodo, he's brooding over what it'll do to Frodo who he's waiting for. Again in Rivendell, he wonders if there's a way to leave Frodo out of this... I think Gandalf would die a dozen more deaths but it would be hard to let his friends take on such a burden again.
What would have happened if Gandalf or another one of the Istari had been eaten by a giant creature which they were unable to cut themselves out of? How would a scenario like that play out?
This doesn't quite tra k for me. If Gandolfini had the ring on him when he fought the Balrog, and then fled as a spirit, then returned elsewhere in a new body, isn't his ring still on top of the mountain? Did he go back for it? Or did he take it with him as a spirit? If so are there other examples of spirits taking physical objects hither and yon in tolkens work?
The answer is that he returned to the same body. Meaning, he would already have the ring and his sword waiting for him when he returned. He didn't return elsewhere in a new body, he returned to exactly where he died. Meaning he returned to the body he died. He even goes to Lothlorien for healing when he returns.
So, if Eru hadn't intervened, how long would it have taken Gandalf to be re-incarnated, if at all? Considering he was a Maia and could technically choose or make himself a physical body he liked, but had stayed in it so long he had become bound to and dependent on it.
Good question Anna. We can't say an exact time, as it would be different in each individual case. If Gandalf hadn't strayed, then he probably would have returned West and attempted to recover. Again, we don't have a time here, but it's entirely possible we are talking many many years since he was one of the Incarnates and suffered a violent death. His spirit would heal, but to reshape and reform some physical body would be a greater act requiring time and the will to do it. What do you think?
When you say "hadn't strayed", do you mean "strayed in mortal lands too long"? And if he was Incarnate, that means he didn't choose or make his body but was given it by the Valar. Considering it took Sauron more than a century to return after the fall of Numenor and about ten times as long after the defeat from The Last Alliance, and he wasn't Incarnate, well, I wonder. :P I suppose the reason it took Sauron so incomparably longer to return the second time was the fact that the best part of the power he needed to regenerate was locked in the Ring and the Ring had not just been taken, but actually claimed by Isildur, if for a different purpose than domination. He might have returned sooner if he hadn't lost the Ring or if no Ring had been made at all. And he had motivation to return: the Ring still existed and hadn't been claimed (yet) for the purposes of domination, he hadn't finished with Middle-Earth and the descendants of Numenor. Gandalf's power wasn't divided in this way, but even in its integral state it was supposed to be less than Sauron's and all the more so, considering his long sojourn as an Incarnate. I suppose Gandalf's must have been the most violent death of the ones considered here. So if after the fall of Numenor it took a more potent Maia who wasn't incarnate, whose power wasn't divided at the time (meaning he had the Ring to himself) and who had a strong motivation to return, about a century to do so and take a new physical shape... we can only guess how long it would have taken Gandalf. :P I can't explain it, but somehow I think his motivation to return would have been weaker than Sauron's. After all, he had admitted himself he feared Sauron, and his death was very violent. So I guess it would have taken much longer than a century (of our time) for Gandalf to steel himself to return. Or maybe all this is just pointless rambling. :P Anyway, as our professor of organizational behaviour tells us each time we have to do a research, whenever a problem is solved, a new one arises. :P What would happen to Narya? Was Gandalf's spirit strong enough, like Sauron's, to carry it with him to the West or wherever else he went to heal himself?
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 Hadn't strayed, meaning if his path didn't take him to Eru. If he was left to his own devices after his death. Tolkien does say with each "death" that the will grows weaker, Sauron would take longer each time to return, even with the One Ring existing. We don't know how long he would take to return if he still held the ring, but he was still in rapport with it and despite Isildur claiming it, it still belonged to Sauron. It's interesting to think if his return would have come about far sooner, but it makes sense that it would. I think the nature of the one dying is important, the nature of their death, their reason for dying. Glorfindel died and healed remarkably quickly in Valinor through his noble sacrifice. Gandalf sacrificed himself for good and had not fallen. His will to return may have been shared with Sauron, but for purely good motives - perhaps that makes a difference? As for Narya, that would have been left on his body on the peak, returned to him when he was sent back. I think carrying it off wouldn't have been possible as Sauron carried the ring due to it being a vital instrument of his being at that time, a tool he become reliant on. Gandalf was never reliant on his Ring of Power, especially for his current state :D
So when Gandalf returns, is he still Incarnate or something more? I can recall two passages where Gandalf uses "was" to refer to himself as Olorin: when Faramir quotes him in The Two Towers, and when he himself explains to the Hobbits about his task in The Quest of Erebor. And while it makes sense that Gandalf the Grey, who had spent thousands of years in a mortal body, would say "Olorin I was", why would Gandalf the White refer to his Maia essense in the past tense? We have been discussing this with Thomas Snerdley on Quora and somehow both Thomas and I seem to gravitate towards the conclusion that, as the direct ambassador of Eru, sent back from death by him much sooner than he would have returned himself, Gandalf the White was not an Incarnate, but perhaps pure Maia power as it is?
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 Yes, he is still Incarnate. Tolkien says in a Letter I quote in my video that naked means literally, and that it doesn't mean Discarnate. He is still subject to the rules that sent him there in the first place. He seems like something more because he has been enhanced. Thomas is wrong about Gandalf being a pure Maia spirit, very wrong in my opinion and I've countered each point he's made about it in the past. As I said, Tolkien outright states he isn't discarnate. Why would Gandalf the White as a pure spirit need to be fed and healed by Galadriel in Lothlorien? It makes no sense... He refers to himself by his name in the past as Olorin because he still hasn't returned west and assumed that name again. Even upon his death, he goes to Eru and is sent back. He has learned much, but we have to remember that the wisdom of the Istari was dimmed, they forgot much of what they knew. He never arrived in Middle-earth AS Olorin.
My question is did Gandalf know the angelic being before he became a balrog. He may have known exactly who we was fighting and it may have been one of his lot time friends. He should have known them all.
I don't know about this because the Maiar could have been immeasurable in number. It's like saying we should all know each other because we are human. It's possible that Gandalf never interacted with Durin's Bane at the beginning of time. It's also possible that Durin's Bane turned to serve Melkor very early, one of that group who served him first, meaning Gandalf may never have spent any time with him as he belonged to the people of other Valar.
We know little but it seems that they do form communities on their own but with in-fighting. I imagine them battling other local groups for food, and land, etc. Perhaps willingly teaming up with them if there's some external threat like Men or Dwarves.
The problem is that if he had collapsed into a coma and had a near-death experience, he could have described it in exactly the same words. If he had even merely lost consciousness and had some sort of mystical dream, he could again have used the same words to describe it. "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." -- 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I've always thought that Tolkien had that passage in mind when he wrote about Gandalf's "death".
the answer is technically no neither Gandalf nor the Balrog "died" as in their spirits leaving middle earth they simply lost their physical manifestation. in Tolkien's mythology only men can truly die. it is a gift of their creation that they are not spirit bound to what was known at their creation to be a corrupted existence , the very reason that morgoth was able to corrupt the elves and turn them in to orcs was due to their immortality.
But 'technically' no one dies then. The spirit endures, even for Men. It just goes elsewhere. That's why death is the separation of body and spirit. Meaning, Gandalf does die and Elves die.
@@TheRedBook ehh i will stick to my opinion but i will accept that it is opinion. i reviewed the chapters in question and i have to admit that Tolkien's use of the terminology is open to some interpretation. Tolkien's mythology can be said to have two types of death , death of the body AND the "Gift of Iluvatar" BUT to me death as we actually define it is always both together and in Tolkien's work it is only men who experience this.
probably said elsewhere below but "Naked we are sent into this world" and "Naked as a new born babe", would seem to be apposite phrases here. Gandalf the White, has so many Christian ideas implicit. Isn't this where Tolkien gets closest to RC dogma ? Pretty sure he admits this somewher in Letters ?
Would be interesting to find that out. I'm sure there must be some who aren't and just get bogged down by Gandalf being a Maia. The same people who say "The Ainur can't die". For what it's worth, I'm atheist and know Gandalf died :D haha
@@Enerdhil Yeah, but personal beliefs should matter little when reading the works of Tolkien. It's not like I believe Eru or souls really exist, why would that stop me reading Tolkien's works in the way it was written?
@@TheRedBook But you are agnostic, am I right? Atheists are sure in their minds that there are no gods or is no God. That is the highest level of arrogance possible, to think that a single person has omniscience to know there is no God. As a devout Christian, I really appreciate the real God even more when I read Tolkien's work. His stories are timeless like Bible stories.
@@Enerdhil - No, I am pretty confident in saying Atheist since I would never claim anything 100% anyway. It's just like how I wouldn't say I was agnostic about unicorns or faeries despite not being able to 100% say they don't exist. I know some people use the gnostic/atheist, gnostic/theist chart in terms of knowledge and belief. I find it easier to just say I'm atheist and lack the belief in any God(s).
The reincarnation of Gandalf and his conversation with Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas has always been one of my favorite parts of The Two Towers. We are given two interesting clues to the differences between Gandalf the White and the Grey. First, Gwahir seems to think Gandalf has lost a lot of weight :) since their last encounter. He thinks that Gandalf would float on the breeze like a feather (Gandalf does not want to test this theory). Second, before they head to Rohan, Aragorn takes a long look at Gandalf and senses something different about his old friend. After agreeing to go with him, Aragorn says that, sure they will set off together, but that Gandalf could get there before him if he wished, that, he could go wherever he wished quicker than Aragorn. Does Aragorn sense that Gandalf the White has been released from the original restrictions of the Istari? If Gandalf can fly or teleport, he never chooses to do so. Does he have all of the native powers of Olorin the Maia returned to him? As with most things Tolkien, a lot is implied but never spelled out.
I would also say that along with the power upgrade comes a change in roles. Gandalf the Grey is a spy and a diplomat. Who snuck into Dol Guldor twice and lived to tell the tale? Gandalf the Grey. Who is tasked to sneak into Mordor with a very small crew of the Free Folk? Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the White, however, takes on the leadership of the resistance against Sauron and do the job that Saruman has forsaken. Orthanc should have been manned by Gondor or better still, Dunlendings who had been welcomed into the Free Folk, their animosity with Rohan and the Dunedain resolved by Saruman's diplomacy and good will. Gondor and Rohan should have been armed and armored with the skill that only a servant of Aule could provide and relations with the elves and dwarves of Middle Earth should have been nurtured and encouraged. Alas, Saruman the White fell from his high calling and chose to squander his time and resources pursuing personal power and followed his enemy down into darkness leaving Gandalf to pick up the reigns and unite the West against the Shadow. I'm ever curious about what could have been if all of the Istari had fulfilled the roles given them by the Valar.
The legendarium would’ve been much shorter
You have the finest Tolkien channel out of all of them. I am literally estatic to be one of your original subscribers!!
High praise! There are a few other good ones. I do remember you commenting on the very first few videos :D
I agree to a point. I just discovered this channel a couple days ago & I am impressed. However, The Dork Lord is neck & neck with The Red Book.
@@raydavison4288 - Matt makes good videos. Still, I don't like comparing channels - especially if they are quite different! I don't think Matthew's videos are similar to mine at all and he certainly branches out into other fiction. I like that he doesn't just do histories or bios as well though, and likes to go more in-depth. Need more channels like his to be honest.
@@TheRedBook: Your videos aren't like Matt's & you are both really good at what you do. There are other channels on TH-cam that are also very good. They're just not as good as The Red Book or Dork Lord's and that's the idea that I meant to convey. 😉
Feel free to leave any questions you may have about Tolkien's works. I can probably still ramble for ages when the answer is "We don't know"!
I got one but I am not sure I want to see a video on it. lol
When Niniel throws herself into Cabed-en-Aras, is she 8-9 months pregnant or did she give birth to Turin and her child before she killed herself? I worked out the math on my own. She could have given birth to a child as early as a couple of months before her death. I would love to see what your research comes up with. I based my calculations on the Silmarillion passage.
Brought to mind by the topic of this video:
- Had the knowledge of the Endless Stair been lost to the dwarves, and/or was the only entrance to it in the now flooded lower parts of Moria - otherwise it could have been an escape route for the remainder of Balin's company.
- Inconsistency? There are shafts bringing in light and air to the upper chambers of Moria. Why couldn't the remainder of Balin's company use these to escape? Too narrow and not enough time to widen them (cutting climbing foot and hand holds should be easy for dwarves)?
- Was the Endless Stair repaired during the 4th Age by the dwarves? Sad that such an interesting architectural feature was destroyed.
What would have changed or how do you believe things would have worked out if Sauron was taken prisoner by the Elves or had been sent to Valinor instead of being taken back to Numenor?
Your videos are wonderful. I thought I had already watched everything YT had to offer on Tolkien lore but I was glad to be wrong when I discovered you’re channel. I like how you keep close to the texts and far from the movies. Your knowledge of the ALL the text ls is impressive as is your ability to pull themes together from throughout the entire body of work.
With that in mind, I’ll ask a couple of questions that I hope will be like pulling on a thread that unravels a larger cloth.
1) Why could Yavanna not create the two trees again? What are the limits of the power of the Valar and what is the nature of creation in Tolkien’s world? Along similar lines, why could Feanor not crate the Silmarils again, or Sauraon remake the one ring?
2) What is the role of the Ainur on Arda? are they bound to it forever, having entered into it? Can Olerin leave Arda after his task is done? Could Melkor flee forever? Is Manwe bound to Ea? Until when?
I hope you undertake one of these! Thank you for your work. I find your videos peaceful to listen to and thoughtful in their content.
Congratulations on having 2 videos cross the thousand view marker!
Thanks Alex, just need them all to do it now :D . I have 5 playlists now created, so I am in a good place going forward with plenty of content to come.
This part in the books always gives me so many questions
Like, did he go to the timeless halls, or did Eru made him appear before him
What are or were the faceless creatures in the dark
How long was he gone, one can say a few days or a few ages depending on where he went
Also worth noting, it took Sauron allot of time at some point to regain a physical body, Gandalf also had a physical for quiet some time... I am not sure he simply could make another one in quick notice
The things he had forgotten he relearned anew, I would like to know more about that as well ( probably he was sent with more authority, but to what degree... the grey and white are not the same )
So many questions to ask, so sad that Tolkien isn't alive anymore
Anyways, love the video keep it up :D !!!
Those are good questions. Do you have your own thoughts?
Great analysis! Also, loving the new video format, it's a good way of tackling new and varied subjects... Very well done, as always!
Cheers, Joe. I think with the playlists I have now, I basically have any type of video covered. Means I am not stuck doing one thing over and over. The idea behind Q&A videos was to do shorter ones between the longer videos...but it ended up near 10 minutes anyway cause I don't shut up :/
Just found this channel and it has become one of my favorite middle earths channels
I never thought he died until a few years ago, but now I’m on the fence a bit. I think Eru pulled Gandalf’s spirit out of the confides of Arda. Eru seems to favour Olorin more than the other Maiar. He therefore died, but death had a different meaning. Gandalf also returns more powerful, when the Ainur usually are weakened after they endure a death in the physical world.
Thank you for your work! Your delivery is very scholarly and measured, the clarity of sound and transition in the videos are excellent. Lastly, the art and rolling text used are fantastic
Again….thank you
Thanks for that feedback. A few seem to think the voice is too quiet or not 'engaging' enough. Always nice to read other people saying they enjoy it. Cheers!
@@TheRedBook you’re welcome Nah You keep going This works But if I had to suggest anything….always use the voice actor or change your voice like you do with Gandalf It’s a greater experience
@@tscarb - Yes, when it is The Lord of the Rings I am quoting from, I am able to use the change of voice. Unfortuantely, for every other source - it will be me! :D
@@TheRedBook just keep it up brother thank you
Yes, Gandalf the Grey died. He died on the mountaintop, and he wasn't sent to the Halls of Mandos but was called directly to the presence of Eru Iluvatar, who empowered him and sent him back. This was the second time Eru directly intervened in the affairs of Middle earth. And..Gandalf was not the same being when he returned, but far..far more powerful.
Yes... that's what my video says 😅
Gandalf's spirit was removed from his body, and his body ceased to function, eg: He died. The spirit returned to Eru who then willed it back into his body, eg: he was resurrected. Not overly complicated given JRRT's religious beliefs. Saruman had been seduced by evil and fallen "from grace". Gandalf was sent "back" to replace him, in his new "white" form, to render the aid the Istari were originally sent to Middle Earth to give.
Very cool videos on this channel, I really want to give you props for the great use of primary sources
Thank you! It was always my goal from the start to follow the material. I still speculate and share a lot of my own ideas but I try to make it clear when I'm doing that.
Really enjoying these videos. I’m not of a mind to try and unpick all of Tolkien’s ‘inconsistencies’ with ‘logic’, but one thing has always troubled me about the Istari, and Gandalf’s battle with the balrog in particular.
We are told in the Silmarillion, and it is established elsewhere, that they have ‘physical bodies’ which are subject to weariness etc, although perhaps they are a little more hardy than an ‘ordinary old man’ (I think the passage in the Silmarillion uses the phrase “old but vigorous”) - how did Gandalf’s body survive the fall from the bridge, the burning whip of the balrog around his legs, the deep water (drowning), hypothermia when he emerged from Moria, etc? In comparison, Saruman appears to deflate like a balloon when Grima deals him his death blow.
As much as I love his work ther ARE some inconsistencies (especially in the Silmarillion, TLotR is muuch better ).
I also do not confuse the appearance of the Istari with ordinary weak old man as some guys see it.
Yes, they do *look* like it and yes they experience hunger and weariness, but I guess that is it probably all - its mostly appearance. I guess it is a way to keep them empathic to the men, elves and dwarfs and (at least in Gandalfs case it worked) also humble.
As you pointed out correctly, how would a fragile old man endure the fall, the fire and nights and days of constant fighing with a Balrog of Morgoth?
I always saw it as he traveled to the halls of Mandos and it was decided by Eru that he be resurrected and given more of his original knowledge and power to achieve his mission. He was given a freer hand to act when needed. Given the title of the white to signify his rank among the istari and show the elves that the Valar have placed their trust in him.
I would agree with that if Tolkien hadn't said that Gandalf passed out of thought and time. Outside of the jurisdiction of the Valar, essentially. The way you explain it would be how I'd view it otherwise.
Keep your great work, the society is growing👍
Addicting vídeos indeed.
👍 :D
Hello 👋 I was wondering if you could comment on the will power of Isildor. If I remember correctly Isildor says something about having thrown the one ring into a fire to see the elvish writing when Gandalf was researching it in Gondor. Isildor had the will power to throw it in the fire which Frodo did not have. He had it for about two years or so before heading back north and meeting his doom. Did he use the power of the ring to build Gondor after the war? It seems poetic that he could have used the power of the ring to build the city that would stand against its power at the end. At the Gladden fields I almost get the impression that the ring was running away from Isildor. Just a fun thought I had and was wondering how I am wrong hahaha. Thank you for all the amazing content!
Sorry it took me a while to see this comment Daryl.
Isildur is able to see the writing on the ring because he says it is still hot from being on the finger of Sauron, which itself was scorched. It is here that he talks of examining the ring and believing it to be precious, not wishing for harm to come to it. Like Frodo, he is already unable to imagine damaging it.
As for how Isildur used it. That's a bit of a mystery. He may not have held it long enough or attempt to use it in the time he had it. It's secrets not unlocked. It seems he may have just kept it, a new token of his house, and a precious heirloom - rather than realising the full potential of such a ring.
I do agree with your thoughts on the ring abandoning Isildur. Maybe at that opportunity there was a chance to return to Sauron through one of the Orcs being drawn to it. Unfortunately, the ring sank in the water and was left waiting for a very long time instead!
Excellent! thank you explaining that. Here’s another dumb question you’ll be able to knock out of the park haha. I was thinking about the time period when greenwood the great became Mirkwood. Did the spiders congregate there because Sauron set up there or the other way around and Sauron set up shop there because he knew the spiders were in southern greenwood
Would it follow that Gandalf’s return is a resurrection? I’ve always thought yes as it would be consistent with Tolkien’s Christian faith.
I think it's the proper word to use. I say that because there was a direct intervention through Eru to heal, enhance, and return Gandalf to Middle-earth. It went beyond what would be the natural process for Gandalf, the healing of his spirit after his death. Perhaps reincarnated is an even better word to use, since he is literally placed back in a physical body as one of the Incarnates...what do you think?
@@TheRedBook
As a Christian, I personally use reincarnation to mean a soul of a person who had died entering a fetus and being born. The dictionary equates reincarnation with resurrection, but I think resurrection has to be the same soul entering the same dead body and that body coming to life again. I think Gandalf's death and resurrection are a perfect example of the Biblical resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The word it self already days entering into flesh sgain
@@TheRedBook hi there new subscriber here.
Loving these vids.
Ive got back into Tolkiens books again recently and I'm not ashamed to say I'm looking forward to the rings of power.
I was wondering do you do the voice overs in these awesome vids?
👍From dundee🏴
Hey, is that the same Dundee I live in?😅
Thanks for checking out the channel. I do the narration but the book narration is not me :D I credit that in the description.
I'm going to be somewhat critical. Not of this video, but of Tolkien himself. And I do this as a fan of all his work, though he meant for it to be published or not.
Lots of words are thrown at this question. This video doesn't represent a unique conversation after all.
Did Gandalf die? When it comes to the "Super Natural", all the words that one can hurl at the question become nothing more or less than semantics.
What is "Super Natural"?
Of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe
especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
Or in other words, that which exists outside of the tangible natural universe.
The supernatural represents a plane of existence that beings of the natural universe by definition (that's hugely important) cannot experience. In fact, beings of the natural world are SO FAR removed from the supernatural, that we can't "Know" anything about the supernatural whatsoever. For that matter, we can't even know if a supernatural plane of existence actually exists. It's entire conception is a product of natural beings that reside firmly within the natural universe and is based solely on conjecture. It's not as though the supernatural has made its existence known to the natural world. Remember, by definition, the supernatural is "existence beyond the visible observable universe". If the supernatural made its presence known, it would not be beyond the observable universe.
But this begs the age old question. If the supernatural plane exists but can by definition, have no observably tangible effects on the natural universe, can we not act in full confidence then as though the supernatural simply doesn't exist? Because again, by definition, it literally DOESN'T exist within the natural universe.
Tolkien being a religious man has always suffered from a case of wanting to have his cake and getting to eat it also. If I'm the most generous, Tolkien simply doesn't understand what "Supernatural" means. And this leads to all of the paradoxical problems that he gets around by simply by ignoring that they exist at all.
Tolkien would have you believe in his legendarium that the supernatural plane of which Eru is supposed to exist, can and does have tangible effects in the natural world. In fact, this tracks perfectly well with his real life religious beliefs. The Christian God is of the supernatural world in that "it" transcends literally everything in the natural world. Yet, God has a direct link to, and has tangible effects on, the natural world. This is the very definition of an oxymoron. These two things, the supernatural and the natural, are mutually exclusive by definition. If the Supernatural is not completely separated from the natural, than it's not "Supernatural". It's just plane old natural. Thus, the Christian god if it exists, and Eru in Tolkien's legendarium, are not supernatural beings. They are of the natural universe. So, let's bring this back to the legendarium.
I think the real question concerns what the tangible effects of Gandalf's "Death" are in the natural universe.
His physical corporeal body is destroyed. His spirit returns to Eru, is endowed with greater wisdom, power and a broader mandate, before then being sent back to Middle Earth with a new corporeal form, with virtually all of his memories intact.
What exactly does death mean in the universe in which Middle Earth exists? For Elves and for the so called "Gods", when their corporeal forms are destroyed, they can and do come back to a new corporeal form within middle earth with their experiences and memories intact. This all happens within the "Natural Universe" by definition. You can tell because the evidence is Tangible. But what happens when a humans corporeal from is destroyed? They can't, by the arbitrary rules of Eru, return to middle earth. Eru shunts their spirits off someplace else. We don't know where, but that doesn't mean that we can't make some positive and factual claims. Either Humans are endowed with a spirit, or they are not. I think by definition in the Tolkien universe, Humans have a spirit. And as we have established that Eru is not supernatural, we can only conclude that Eru has shunted human spirits to some other place within the natural universe. Assuming that memories and experiences are an essential part of ones spirit (after all, what are we exactly if we are not our experiences and our memories), and assuming that these spirits will be trotted out once again in some new board game of Eru's, than the only logical conclusion is that Elves, Humans and "Gods" alike do not die. In Tolkien's universe, the only thing that CAN die by definition, are the non essential and altogether disposable corporeal meat sacs in which the spirit manifests itself in the natural world. And in every case we know of in the Tolkien Legendarium where elves or Gandalf returned to a corporeal form, even their former meat sacks were reconstituted for the crying out load! There is wiggle room around how and when a sprite can return to a corporeal form, but this does not constitute death by any normal conventions. In Real Life, Death is a one way street. There is no returning to a Corporeal From. If we have a spirit and it's reconstituted someplace else in the natural universe, there is no way we will ever know that back here on earth. That I suppose is a good enough definition of death to be getting on with.
How did Gandalf change through Death? I'm not asking "What" changed. I'm literally asking "How" did he change. Eru endowed him with new,,,,,,,, stuff and sent him back with a new Corporeal form that bore an uncanny resemblance to his former Corporeal form. But Eru didn't HAVE to change Gandalf in any way. Eru could have sent him back exactly as he was previously. And I frankly don't understand what difference it makes how Eru changed Gandalf one way or another with regards to the question. At the end of the day, for all tangible intents and purposes, Gandalf in fact, did not die. His spirit was not destroyed, It returned to a new corporeal vessel with his memories and experiences more or less intact. He wasn't gone for more than a month. In fact, he returned stronger than he was before. Plus, he took out (permanently mind you) another Maiar exactly like himself, that was an agent for evil who was basically an insurmountable force by any power left in middle earth save for Gandalf (and probably Glorfindel). There wasn't even any down side to Gandalf losing his meat sac, just benefit. All the sophistry in the world won't change THOSE facts. And Tolkien says this wasn't "Cheating"??? The word that applies here is delusional.
I want to go one step further. Lets for the sake of it say that Gandalf really did truly die and his spirit was forever removed from the natural universe never to return. For this to have any actual consequence, Gandalf must be irreplaceable. But for a number of reasons, Gandalf isn't exactly irreplaceable. Eru himself could step in. It was he who destroyed Numenore and threw the mountains down on top of Arpharazan. But for unknown reasons, Eru couldn't or wouldn't intervene here personally. Because ain't that just like a GOD???? But Eru isn't alone. He's got all of his most powerful children in Aman. Melkor, mightiest of all the Ainu, and Manwe was his brother, equal in if not subtler in power. Could not Manwe intervene? After all, He is the king of all the "Gods" in middle earth. Surely he has not only the power, but the mandate to shepherd middle earth. But for unknown reasons. He won't step in and lift a finger either. Like father like son no? But Manwe and crew did send the istari. Effectively, crappier versions of themselves. Surely there were more than 5 Miar available? What happened to Tulkas and Orome? There could have been, and probably were, loads of other generic "Angels" that could have stepped into Gandalf's place. Eru could have hand picked any of his children that dwelt with him outside the physical world of arda and sent them in. Eru could have hand crafted a new angelic being purpose built for the task. Heck, Manwe and crew expelled Melkors spirit from Arda in the end, after allowing him to have a second go mind. Are you telling me that Eru couldn't reach and snag Sauron out of his bed sheets and boot his arse out to some distant part of the void for a permanent time out? Or how about just snapping his ethereal fingers and erasing him from existence. "I brought you into this world and I'll take you back out" style.
The thing I'm pointing out here is that the only "Stakes" that there ever were, were the stakes created by and arbitrarily acted upon by, Eru. At the end of the day, Just like "real life" creator gods, every foul thing that ever took place in middle earth was the result of Eru and HIS creations, his actions or his non actions. From the very beginning, from a time before arda was manifested, Eru, who created Melkor, had evidence of the malice that lay within Melkor. In fact, Eru, as the creator, arguably created Melkor that way. But all the same, Eru was certainly responsible for allowing Melkor to descend into arda. He certainly stood by while Melkor systematically raped arda and torchered countless souls. I find it comical that he personally intervened to destroy numanor and destroy Arpharazons army, but he was perfectly happy to stand by and watch First Melkor and then Sauron wreak untold pain and misery for literal ages. If that isn't a direct parallel to the Christian creator god, than I am missing something.
Look, I love Tolkien's universe as much as anyone. But lets not pretend that there are not a boatload of very problematic contradictions and loopholes in the story. And as far as anyone in the natural universe is concerned, no, Gandalf didn't die.
It always amuses me that George RR Martin sites the resurrection of Gandalf as a "cop-out" or "mistake" in my opinion shows an epic misunderstanding of the story... any thoughts on George and his stuff? I don't think highly of him personally, I'm curious what you think.
It's the same with the fascination about Aragorn's politics as a King - it's not the point of the story. I have read the first two books of ASOIAF but didn't return for the 3rd. It didn't grab me at all.
"'Saruman!' he cried, and his voice grew in power and authority. 'Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, *who has returned from death.* You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.'" (emphasis added)
That would seem to answer the question diegetically, *assuming* Gandalf can be trusted. This could all be just marketing to make himself look good.
Good point Kurt. I guess I was too busy answering it from the perspective of the author himself that I didn't quote the character himself :D
I got a question how come more was not mentioned about werewolves in mordor
I'll make a note of that, I think it will fit in with a video about the fate of Werewolves beyond the First Age and the destruction of Beleriand.
Good one. There are lots of consistency problems in Tolkien and people just have to accept it. Why does Eru bring Gandalf back but do nothing else to aid the cause against Sauron? Why did Sauron not seek the aid of the Balrog? What good are palantiri if they can't tell you a balrog is lost in Khazad Dum
I suppose the first one could be answered by saying he didn't have to do anything else against Sauron because he sent Gandalf back :D . I get your point though!
The cool thing is that Gandalf didn't run from Balrog. He fought him. I think the movie is great in how Sir Ian showed his reaction once he realized Balrog was coming for them. He looked not only gravely concerned, but he had a healthy and respectful near of Balrog ..just as he had a respectful fear of Sauron.
And since he's Gandalf, he cannot suffer Balrog to live. A being as good and holy as Gandalf can't simply walk away from Gandalf.
Sorry for the rambling. I love that part of the book and the way it was portrayed in the movie version of The Two Towers is pretty much the most epic battle I've seen between two Maia.
Great stuff!
Glad you enjoyed it
I have two question related to how the Wizards were embodied - did their bodies age while they were in Middle Earth? Also, given that they looked like old men, did they experience any of the issues (aches and pains, frailty) associated with older bodies?
I’ve always wondered how physical (and subject to the ravages of time and stress) Tolkien considered their forms to be.
Good questions Rebecca. The Silmarillion tells us the following:
"In the likeness of Men they appeared, old but vigorous, and they changed little with the years, and aged but slowly, though great cares lay on them; great wisdom they had, and many powers of mind and hand." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
They did age but very slowly. Frodo notices Gandalf looking a little older, probably through the pressure of what he had discovered about the ring but it would have been unnoticed by most.
As for issues. Unfinished Tales in the essay "The Istari" clearly states that they were clad in real bodies of Men, real and not feigned. They were subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain. We also see Gandalf in The Fellowship of the Ring need a rest of his feet. and he does sleep in Two The Towers.
I am not as sure about the bodies of the Istari being "real and not feigned" as The Red Book said. Sure, there is a passage that tells us that they were exposed to weariness and pain, but I wonder about 1.the degree and also 2.about how much of an obstacle that really was for them.
I write about this because Gandalf fights the Balrog for days and nights, from the bottom of the abyss to the peak of the mountains, after being whipped by flame and after the fall from the bridge.. I mean, come on that does not sound like an ordinary old mens body AT ALL.
Also I strongly suspect that weariness and pain is something that is reality for EVERY Ainur not only the Istari: think about Morgoth and his wounds when fighing Fingolfin where he received a limp that would never heal.
I thought Sauron died the first time in the Silmarillion when Huan (maybe my favorite Tolkien characters) killed him to protect Luthien from him. Huan held him as he Sauron fled shifting though many forms but could not prevail or escape . The fight ended with Sauron as undead. it never specifically said that Sauron was slain, but the description of the fight is telling.
"Then Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form; but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly. Ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Lúthien came to him, and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: ‘There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.’"
He is threatened with disembodiment if he doesn't yield mastery of the tower. He does and Luthien and Huan honour their word and let him go. He changes into a vampire shape and flees, wounded. He isn't slain though. A hint that he wasn't slain is that he is dripping blood from his throat, which is where he was being held down. A spirit wouldn't have that.
Literally the best
what happened to the balrog and smaug spirits?
With the Balrog, we don't really know for sure. Though, we have examples of fallen Maiar 'dying' and it seems likely the spirit of the Balrog would fade to the point it couldn't bother the physical world again. It's mysterious though.
As for Smaug, we don't even know what Dragons really are, to be honest. We don't know what happens to a lot of creatures when they die - Ents, Eagles, etc.
I have an Idea of the topic "Why Eru allowed evil to endure and not interfered?"
I know the answer but it seems that many people don't understand the idea of Free Will which Tolkien took from Christianity as he was it's faithfull worhsiper and I think it fits for the philosophical purpuse of the channel😉
That's definitely coming, and I'm glad you asked it. I have scripts related to Melkor's redemption, Eru "regretting" creating him, and the Problem of Evil. The hard part is working out how to organise it all for a video or videos. This kind of topic is definitely on my radar though :) .
I can’t believe it was ever in doubt that Gandalf died physically! Although the metaphysics of his resurrection and return do warrant debate.
What do you think of G.R.R. Martin’s famous proclamation that Gandalf should have stayed dead? I think you and Tolkien’s letters both do explain very well why his death and return were not cheap, that they were in fact handled with the importance and nuance they deserved.
I think that's the problem for a lot of people - the physical nature of Gandalf in Middle-earth, separating that from the spiritual. Too often you'll read "They can't die" - but as I say in the video, and as you know, death isn't non existence. Characters can die multiple times.
I disagree with Martin, and his approach to Tolkien's work in general. He doesn't seem to view Gandalf's death, or the work, from a mythological or legendary view. He wants to know Aragorn's tax policies. To me, that's like asking about Hrothgar's policies in Beowulf. It's completely not what the tale is about and is vastly unimportant. It's no surprise that he ends up feeling Gandalf's death is cheap because (to him) it seems like there are no consequences, it's some sort of get out of jail card. Something like The New Shadow would probably appeal to him more than The Lord of the Rings...
@@TheRedBook Agreed on both paragraphs. If one looks up Martin’s life on Wikipedia, it is clear he is a creative and imaginative chap. A Song Of Ice And Fire is the zenith of a lifetime of writing stories, from screenplays to novels.
So why he can’t appreciate Middle-Earth for the epic medieval romance it was meant to be will forever escape me…
@@MistaGify - It does kind of seem that he's taken what he liked about it and ditched what he didn't like in order to create his own work. Do you like ASOIAF? I only managed first 2 books. It's not really for me. I prefer the legendary style of LotR!
@@TheRedBook I have neither read the books nor watched the show. I want him to FINISH his series before I start! Even Tolkien managed to finish Hobbit and LOTR, although he left so much behind.
@@MistaGify I think there's more chance of J.R.R. Tolkien finishing a sequel than George finishing ASOIAF...
Where is the best platform to ask you questions? Can we ask here?
Right here, Kathryn. Or on Twitter, if you tag me. I basically get notified about most comments on TH-cam and will keep a note of what I'm asked. If you want to be more direct, there's an email on my about section that is exclusively for this channel as well :)
Could the elves receive/accept the gift of Men? (Arwen is the one that makes me ask this question)
That's pretty much what happens when those given the choice make the choice to be of the kindred of Men. It's not that they are rejecting being an Elf, it's that they are accepting the gift of Men.
Tolkien said "Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them..."
Very specific circumstances though surrounding the line of Earendil and Elwing. Your regular Elf does not get the choice to accept or receive the gift of Men. So, Elrond rejected it and was of the kindred of Elves. His brother Elros accepted it and was of the kindred of Men. So, his decendants are of his kindred but Elrond's received the choice because even though he was an Elf, his children should have the choice to accept that gift.
The way I see it is, like when Sauron lost his body following the fall of Numenor (reduced to a shade until he could recover - but never again could he take on a handsome shape), Gandalf the Grey lost his body and when he returned as Gandalf the White, the Valar gave him a new body.
The Valar didn't send Gandalf back, Eru did, and he returned to his old body... Obviously renewed and healed, etc. He recovered his sword and Ring of Power and returned to where he had died. Makes sense.
@@TheRedBook But evidently Gandalf wasn't returned to his old body, renewed or otherwise. Whatever he is, is fundamentally different to Gandalf the Grey.
From Gwaihir:
"A burden you have been ... but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind." - this is very much contrary to what we know of the istari, who are human bodies to some extent, that sounds more like a spirit taking on a form.
From Gandalf himself:
"Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf. ... you may still call me Gandalf ...". - evidently a change in 'being' has taken place.
"I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much that I had forgotten. I can see many things far off ..." - indicating he has likely been restored with the native knowledge of Olorin.
"Get up my good Gimli! No blame to you and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. ... Dangerous! And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." - That is also very much indicating he is no longer istar, he is impervious to mortal weapons. The second part of the quote also discredits the idea he has been promoted to some kind of position previously held by Saruman, he is now the second most powerful being in middle earth, just as you'd expect in a heirarchy of the native spirits Olorin and Mairon.
I think the most likely option here is Eru has dissolved the Heren Istarion and returned Olorin in his native form, so why does he act more or less like an upgraded Gandalf? Because that is Olorin's nature, he is not a natural warrior or dominator of wills, he uses his wisdom and understanding to aide, he was sent in the first place because of his humble nature.
His death also seems fundamentally different from Sauron/Saruman etc, Olorin went somewhere else, Sauron is merely disembodied, Olorin seems to become disconnected from Ea itself, existing in a region without time or 'information'.
@@lachyt5247 I disagree. This is a common theory I've read on other sites and I don't think what you say is evident or "most likely" but I'll have to cover that as a response video at some point in the future.
@@TheRedBook Thanks for the response, I look forward to your future take on Gandalf the white. It's not something I've seen covered on youtube to anything beyond the surface level so it would be very welcome in your usual well researched and insightful manner.
Now you have me curious about Melian. Was she incarnate? If she was, did she die when she disappeared? If she wasn't, does that raise questions about her ability to have a child?
Just a question on your opinion. Being because Iru intervened sending Gandalf back and not by the means of Manwe, the other Valar or through the halls of Mandos, wouldn't that make him equal to the Valar or even a new child of Illuvatar? It's just a question i would have asked Tolkien were he still alive and just want to know what you think.
I understand your point. It can be a difficult concept (especially explaining it). The Valar and the Maiar (all of the Ainur) are of the mind of Eru. They are all of the Ainur but some are specifically lofty enough to be known as the Valar and the rest are of the Maiar. There's no case of any "upgrading" because they are distinctly apart in strength of spirit.
When Gandalf died, he could have recovered over time, with a great deal of patience and will - Eru sped up that process greatly and even enhanced Gandalf - but enhanced him to be far closer to how he was in the West as Olorin - the Maia. In the flesh of a man, his wisdom and power was dimmed. Eru basically let the strength of spirit shine through greater. Gandalf the White is far closer to Olorin in nature than Gandalf the Grey. While it is possible that through his experience, Gandalf had his spirit strengthened, he would never be something more than a Maia.
We have cases of others growing in stature but they don't change their nature. Glorfindel in death became "Nigh as great" as the Maiar but he was still an Elf. Even Frodo grows greatly in spirit through his experience but he is still a Hobbit.
@@TheRedBook that makes sense to a point. There is several things though that would lead me to believe contrary. The Valar and Maiar are both Ainur with the Valar the more powerful than the Maiar. In sense, they are the only different in abilities and wisdom given. Glorfindel was sent back by Manwe from Aman whole but not enhanced because no Valar has that ability. There is 1 that does enhance other than Eru and that's the 1 ring. It made the Nine basically a lower form of Maiar. Sauron himself with the 1 ring was feared by the greatest of the Istari and eventually took council of the will of the ring. Saromon's lust for the power the ring would have given him caused him to dehance, not sure if that's a weird but it fits better than devolve. Not even the Valar could do this. And Sarumon had never laid eyes upon the ring. He only knew of it through descriptions from ancient scrolls. That also make me wonder when Sauron said he was Melkor returned, if he was in fact trekking the truth as long as he was wearing the 1 ring. The council of the ring wouldn't even send the ring across the sea or of fear of the power of the rings will. We know that the Valar could be corrupted. Only old Tom seemed to not be affected by it. Then there's the resurrection of Gandalf which is beyond the measures of limitations of power that the Valar possessed. He passed from all time and thought. He walked long roads that we refused to mention. He was returned to his body in 19 days but he was walking with Eru where time did not exist., or only existed as Eru measured it. He could have been beyond the void with Eru for equivalent of many ages in middle Earth and learned many things that possibly Manwe was not blessed with. Tolkien never described the power Gandalf was enhanced with other that his power was enhanced greatly. We don't see the true power of the Istari not because of the form they were in but because they were forbidden to. That is why Gandalf broke the staff of Sarumon to limit the power Sarumon and severing the connection of his spirit through the staff. This in itself showed some of the power he returned with for that was even beyond the power of the Maiar. Gandalfs sacrifice was also Gandalf's failure and the failure of the Valar yet the sacrifice in itself was selfless thinking only of the success of the fellowship and the wellbeing of the children of Illuvatar. In giving his life and failing his task, he might have never come out from the halls of Mandos. The nature of his sacrifice put him above the Valar in this sense. Eru can sing everything out of existence as well as create new. Just as he gave life to the Dwarves. Gandalf was reborn as a child is born, naked symbolizing he was no longer Ainur but something else entirely. He also stated that he was sent back for a brief time until his task is done. He may have ferried Frodo and Bilbo across the great sea but he wasn't going to himself step foot in the undying lands. Instead he is to go back to Eru. This is strictly my opinion of the few scraps i have read from Tolkien's letters and unfinished writings but i think that Gandalf was no longer a servant of the secret flame but of the flame itself.
My question is did Thorin's Bane die? What happens to Balrog after Gandalf smote it on the mountain side? Did it to go back to the Halls of Mandos, to be judged by Manwe for the crimes it committed or it simply like Sauron and Saruman a shadow of their former selves with no form or power?
I always wonder what happened to Gandalf after his return home to Valinor. Would he assume his spirit form again and not openly show himself around the elves, would he have a special place of honour amongst the inhabitants of Valinor or would he wonder around unassumingly as before, spreading pleasant dreams and visions.
I've been very interested lately in the dualism between mind and body in Tolkien and how it translates to Sauron's relationship to the One Ring and Morgoth's relationship to Arda. It seems Sauron and Morgoth are attached to their respective "rings" which sort of provide an anchor to their spiritual being. Thinking about this and what you say in this video about death in Tolkien being this separation between mind and body, what can we make of Man's Gift? What's special about it is the destiny of the spirit once separated, right?
Yes, I think you are right there. It's 'simply' about the spirit itself not being bound to the body of Arda. Both Dark Lords sacrifice a great part of themselves to tie their 'essence' to the flesh of Arda, all in order to gain some control over it. The gift of man is that when their bodies die, they are not going to be bound to this world. They will be able to pass to the next place, outside the circles of the physical world.
Is the Balrog incarnate? Is it a spirit in a physical body?
I'm not sure that we can say Sauron died in the destruction of Numenor or when Gil-Galad and Elendil fought him, not in the same way Gandalf died. This is because Sauron was not actually bound to a body in the same way. He could no longer take a fair form, but nothing in Tolkien's writings that I've seen indicates that Sauron was tied to his body and could not set it aside and walk "unclad", as was common for Valar and other Maiar to do
However, it seems like Gandalf and the other Istari are bound to their bodies in a way unusual for Maiar. I don't remember if I actually read this, or if it simply seems to ring true to me, but I was under the impression that for their mission, the Istari were required by the Valar to (1) set aside some power, and (2) be truly tied to the bodies they inhabited - perhaps only temporarily. Perhaps the idea was they would restore their power and ability to walk unclad after their mission was successful. And at no time do we see the Istari mention being able to walk unclad, or see it done in the books; the impression is that Gandalf and the other Wizards are semi-permanently bound to their bodies, in a way that Maiar are generally not.
After all, there was precedent for such temporary binding to a body for Maiar; when Melian married Thingol and gave birth to Luthien, she was bound to her body by virtue of the man she loved and the daughter she gave birth to in that body. Not until both Thingol and Luthien died did she again walk unclad and return to Aman in the West.
So there is something to Sauron losing his body through violence, and that having an effect on his ability to form a new one; when a Maiar lost a body through violence, it was a more involved process to form a new one, if I remember right. I think it was said it took some time for Sauron to form a new body after losing his in Numenor (and he outright lost the ability to make a fair form) and then again it took most of the Third Age for Sauron to form a new body after having his body slain at the battle of the Last Alliance, because not only was his slain through violence, but he also had the ring taken from him by force when Isildur cut it from his hand.
But even still, Sauron would have had the ability to walk unclad - I've seen nothing that indicates he lost this ability the way Morgoth had. Gandalf had set that ability aside, however, and was tied to his body in a semi-permanent fashion. So Sauron losing his body was traumatic, like it always was for Maiar to lose a body through violence, but it was truly death for Gandalf. Sauron reformed a new body through his own power and will, and it took time; Gandalf didn't form a new body through his own will. His body was healed and he was restored to it through the intervention of Iluvatar.
did he come back to his old body or was he given a new body?
He returned to his old body, the one that was still on the peak.
@@TheRedBook am i also right in thinking gandalf died on the top of the mountain above moria? The movie gives the impression that they somehow pass through some sort of portal when they hit the underground lake and that they pass into something like hell thats under the earth. But the book gives me the impression gandalf pursues the balrog up to the top of the mountain and fight up there
Yeah they fall from the bridge, and go deeper than where anyone else has been before, Gandalf pursues the Balrog, and they then climb again and reach the Endless Stair. This reaches all the way up to Durin's Tower at the peak of Celebdil. There they finally end their battle.
Where were the Dwarf Rings taken by dragons? And were any of those dragons ones we know?
Unfortunately we don't know. We just know that some were consumed/destroyed by Dragons. That's as vague as it gets!
@@TheRedBook
Thanks, that's what I thought. Amazon could have made a great TV series in the East with Dwarves and Dragons and maybe Hobbits and Kamul and Blue Wizards and Sauron trying to control it all, not to mention a U.N. cast of characters and sexual IDs and no one would have minded. Instead, if leaks are true, it will not be Tolkien's Arda, but AMAZON's.😞
How is Gandalf the White different from Gandalf the Grey? I have seen some interesting comments; one person said, GandalfGrey was a diplomat/spy vs. GandalfWhite who was a general/commander. But if Gandalf the Grey had lived, I think he would have taken the same role. It's hinted there's more power and wisdom, but I didn't find Gandalf the Grey to be underpowered or unwise so I'm not sure. Yes I know Saruman bested him but was it a lack of wisdom or that he carried faith in his friends (faith that he keeps in the rest of the fellowship?). It is also interesting that you talk about sacrifice... this is something I saw in the movie first but believe it is also backed up in the books. I don't think Gandalf the Grey's death was a sacrifice (he knows he'll respawn) but his sacrifice is letting Frodo take the the burden of the ring. When you watch it, you see how his face darkens when Frodo confirms the markings on the ring. Also that time after Bilbo drops the ring and he waits for Frodo, he's brooding over what it'll do to Frodo who he's waiting for. Again in Rivendell, he wonders if there's a way to leave Frodo out of this... I think Gandalf would die a dozen more deaths but it would be hard to let his friends take on such a burden again.
What would have happened if Gandalf or another one of the Istari had been eaten by a giant creature which they were unable to cut themselves out of? How would a scenario like that play out?
Like teh Watcher in teh Water? haha?
@@TheRedBook ...maybe...
This doesn't quite tra k for me. If Gandolfini had the ring on him when he fought the Balrog, and then fled as a spirit, then returned elsewhere in a new body, isn't his ring still on top of the mountain? Did he go back for it? Or did he take it with him as a spirit? If so are there other examples of spirits taking physical objects hither and yon in tolkens work?
The answer is that he returned to the same body. Meaning, he would already have the ring and his sword waiting for him when he returned. He didn't return elsewhere in a new body, he returned to exactly where he died. Meaning he returned to the body he died. He even goes to Lothlorien for healing when he returns.
This is Deep
Gandalf, of course, was not one of the Ainur, but of the Maia and coeval with Sauron.
The Ainur contains both the Valar and the Maiar.
So, if Eru hadn't intervened, how long would it have taken Gandalf to be re-incarnated, if at all? Considering he was a Maia and could technically choose or make himself a physical body he liked, but had stayed in it so long he had become bound to and dependent on it.
Good question Anna. We can't say an exact time, as it would be different in each individual case. If Gandalf hadn't strayed, then he probably would have returned West and attempted to recover. Again, we don't have a time here, but it's entirely possible we are talking many many years since he was one of the Incarnates and suffered a violent death. His spirit would heal, but to reshape and reform some physical body would be a greater act requiring time and the will to do it. What do you think?
When you say "hadn't strayed", do you mean "strayed in mortal lands too long"? And if he was Incarnate, that means he didn't choose or make his body but was given it by the Valar.
Considering it took Sauron more than a century to return after the fall of Numenor and about ten times as long after the defeat from The Last Alliance, and he wasn't Incarnate, well, I wonder. :P
I suppose the reason it took Sauron so incomparably longer to return the second time was the fact that the best part of the power he needed to regenerate was locked in the Ring and the Ring had not just been taken, but actually claimed by Isildur, if for a different purpose than domination. He might have returned sooner if he hadn't lost the Ring or if no Ring had been made at all. And he had motivation to return: the Ring still existed and hadn't been claimed (yet) for the purposes of domination, he hadn't finished with Middle-Earth and the descendants of Numenor.
Gandalf's power wasn't divided in this way, but even in its integral state it was supposed to be less than Sauron's and all the more so, considering his long sojourn as an Incarnate. I suppose Gandalf's must have been the most violent death of the ones considered here.
So if after the fall of Numenor it took a more potent Maia who wasn't incarnate, whose power wasn't divided at the time (meaning he had the Ring to himself) and who had a strong motivation to return, about a century to do so and take a new physical shape... we can only guess how long it would have taken Gandalf. :P I can't explain it, but somehow I think his motivation to return would have been weaker than Sauron's. After all, he had admitted himself he feared Sauron, and his death was very violent. So I guess it would have taken much longer than a century (of our time) for Gandalf to steel himself to return. Or maybe all this is just pointless rambling. :P Anyway, as our professor of organizational behaviour tells us each time we have to do a research, whenever a problem is solved, a new one arises. :P What would happen to Narya? Was Gandalf's spirit strong enough, like Sauron's, to carry it with him to the West or wherever else he went to heal himself?
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 Hadn't strayed, meaning if his path didn't take him to Eru. If he was left to his own devices after his death.
Tolkien does say with each "death" that the will grows weaker, Sauron would take longer each time to return, even with the One Ring existing. We don't know how long he would take to return if he still held the ring, but he was still in rapport with it and despite Isildur claiming it, it still belonged to Sauron. It's interesting to think if his return would have come about far sooner, but it makes sense that it would.
I think the nature of the one dying is important, the nature of their death, their reason for dying. Glorfindel died and healed remarkably quickly in Valinor through his noble sacrifice. Gandalf sacrificed himself for good and had not fallen. His will to return may have been shared with Sauron, but for purely good motives - perhaps that makes a difference?
As for Narya, that would have been left on his body on the peak, returned to him when he was sent back. I think carrying it off wouldn't have been possible as Sauron carried the ring due to it being a vital instrument of his being at that time, a tool he become reliant on. Gandalf was never reliant on his Ring of Power, especially for his current state :D
So when Gandalf returns, is he still Incarnate or something more? I can recall two passages where Gandalf uses "was" to refer to himself as Olorin: when Faramir quotes him in The Two Towers, and when he himself explains to the Hobbits about his task in The Quest of Erebor. And while it makes sense that Gandalf the Grey, who had spent thousands of years in a mortal body, would say "Olorin I was", why would Gandalf the White refer to his Maia essense in the past tense? We have been discussing this with Thomas Snerdley on Quora and somehow both Thomas and I seem to gravitate towards the conclusion that, as the direct ambassador of Eru, sent back from death by him much sooner than he would have returned himself, Gandalf the White was not an Incarnate, but perhaps pure Maia power as it is?
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 Yes, he is still Incarnate. Tolkien says in a Letter I quote in my video that naked means literally, and that it doesn't mean Discarnate. He is still subject to the rules that sent him there in the first place. He seems like something more because he has been enhanced. Thomas is wrong about Gandalf being a pure Maia spirit, very wrong in my opinion and I've countered each point he's made about it in the past. As I said, Tolkien outright states he isn't discarnate. Why would Gandalf the White as a pure spirit need to be fed and healed by Galadriel in Lothlorien? It makes no sense...
He refers to himself by his name in the past as Olorin because he still hasn't returned west and assumed that name again. Even upon his death, he goes to Eru and is sent back. He has learned much, but we have to remember that the wisdom of the Istari was dimmed, they forgot much of what they knew. He never arrived in Middle-earth AS Olorin.
My question is did Gandalf know the angelic being before he became a balrog. He may have known exactly who we was fighting and it may have been one of his lot time friends. He should have known them all.
I don't know about this because the Maiar could have been immeasurable in number. It's like saying we should all know each other because we are human. It's possible that Gandalf never interacted with Durin's Bane at the beginning of time. It's also possible that Durin's Bane turned to serve Melkor very early, one of that group who served him first, meaning Gandalf may never have spent any time with him as he belonged to the people of other Valar.
How were Orc societies? I mean we only see them fight.
We know little but it seems that they do form communities on their own but with in-fighting. I imagine them battling other local groups for food, and land, etc. Perhaps willingly teaming up with them if there's some external threat like Men or Dwarves.
Where is your dialect located ?
I'm from the West coast of Scotland
@@TheRedBook
That was my first thought. Thank you. I'm from northern bavaria, germany.
@@bruderk4257 Oh cool, a channel I am friendly with (The Clueless Fangirl) is Bavarian :D
@@TheRedBook
I have never watched it. I'll put it on my list.
It also seems quite clear that Sauroman died in The Lord of the Rings.
The problem is that if he had collapsed into a coma and had a near-death experience, he could have described it in exactly the same words. If he had even merely lost consciousness and had some sort of mystical dream, he could again have used the same words to describe it.
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." -- 2 Corinthians 12:2-4
I've always thought that Tolkien had that passage in mind when he wrote about Gandalf's "death".
👏
👍
the answer is technically no neither Gandalf nor the Balrog "died" as in their spirits leaving middle earth they simply lost their physical manifestation. in Tolkien's mythology only men can truly die. it is a gift of their creation that they are not spirit bound to what was known at their creation to be a corrupted existence , the very reason that morgoth was able to corrupt the elves and turn them in to orcs was due to their immortality.
But 'technically' no one dies then. The spirit endures, even for Men. It just goes elsewhere. That's why death is the separation of body and spirit. Meaning, Gandalf does die and Elves die.
@@TheRedBook ehh i will stick to my opinion but i will accept that it is opinion. i reviewed the chapters in question and i have to admit that Tolkien's use of the terminology is open to some interpretation. Tolkien's mythology can be said to have two types of death , death of the body AND the "Gift of Iluvatar" BUT to me death as we actually define it is always both together and in Tolkien's work it is only men who experience this.
probably said elsewhere below but "Naked we are sent into this world" and "Naked as a new born babe", would seem to be apposite phrases here. Gandalf the White, has so many Christian ideas implicit. Isn't this where Tolkien gets closest to RC dogma ? Pretty sure he admits this somewher in Letters ?
My guess is that all the people who think Gandalf didn't die are Atheists.
Would be interesting to find that out. I'm sure there must be some who aren't and just get bogged down by Gandalf being a Maia. The same people who say "The Ainur can't die". For what it's worth, I'm atheist and know Gandalf died :D haha
@@TheRedBook
It lines up with their beliefs that God and souls don't exist.
@@Enerdhil Yeah, but personal beliefs should matter little when reading the works of Tolkien. It's not like I believe Eru or souls really exist, why would that stop me reading Tolkien's works in the way it was written?
@@TheRedBook
But you are agnostic, am I right? Atheists are sure in their minds that there are no gods or is no God. That is the highest level of arrogance possible, to think that a single person has omniscience to know there is no God. As a devout Christian, I really appreciate the real God even more when I read Tolkien's work. His stories are timeless like Bible stories.
@@Enerdhil - No, I am pretty confident in saying Atheist since I would never claim anything 100% anyway. It's just like how I wouldn't say I was agnostic about unicorns or faeries despite not being able to 100% say they don't exist. I know some people use the gnostic/atheist, gnostic/theist chart in terms of knowledge and belief. I find it easier to just say I'm atheist and lack the belief in any God(s).
Yes, I think he did die. That’s how I’ve already read it
my question is , did Amazon try to corrupt you to shill for them with shiny baubles and platitudes ?
I've never been contacted by anyone about the Amazon TV Show.