Very well said. Great information. I am an Amsoil Independent Dealer here in Central Florida. I do not claim to know all. However through videos like yours, I get to ser and learn nit only what Amsoil training says but through educated consumers say as well. I'm drinking from a well of motor enthusiast like yourself. I really appreciated what you said. It does matter. We have a lot of good brands. One of the differences between the other brands and Amsoil is that you get to know your Amsoil Dealer, plus you have access to the engineer tech team at Amsoil. Not to mention you get to support a local guy vs the bigger guys. We eat at a local dinner vs McDonald's or Burger King. However, you get to choose who you do business with. I personally would love to have your business and get to know you. People do business with people they know, like and trust. Happy riding. 🏁🗽🇺🇲
Thank you profusely for your detailed explanations! I feel so much more informed. I'm 60 years old and have been riding and racing for 52 of those years. But I never really educated myself about oil and it's classifications. I have a Moto Guzzi V85TT with a dry clutch. In addition to the manufacturer's recommendations, I am now armed with the proper knowledge to select the oil for this bike. I don't really need any JASO oil (though it is mentioned in the manual). An auto oil with the proper rating (SL - also mentioned in the manual) will do fine. Anyway, thanks again!!!
John, another excellent video! As someone with over 30 years experience in both the petroleum industry and automotive repairs, you information on oil standards and grading is very simplified and to the point without getting into all the engineering and technical details. It gets to the point and give the average consumer and rider what they really need to know to choose an oil. The one point about brands is that if they meet a standard no matter the brand they meet the standard and will work, but some of the bigger name brands do have warranties against engine failure, although limited and not easy to prove related to oil. The interesting thing about the BMW recommendation to use Castrol oil in your manual is that Castrol was a long time partner with BMW and used to make oil for BMW Motorrad and BMW until more recently when BMW switched to oil made by Shell. BMW Advantec is essentially Shell PurePlus Synthetic oil that uses natural gas converted to the base oil in a gas to liquid process.
Thanks! It's really tough to try and condense all this information into a short video. The making of full synthetic oil is really a fascinating process and probably deserves it's own video. I would also be very curious to know who actually makes all the various generic brands or the re-labeled brands out there. I saw a video recently which included chemical analysis of the Walmart rebranded synthetic oil and the additive package was quite good. There are bargains to be had without compromising quality.
16:45 - I disagree with the argument that a rider who puts a lot of miles on a bike doesn't need synthetic oil because they'll be changing it more often. Viscosity breakdown leading to sludge and varnish is a function of heat and time, and that largely correlates to miles. High mileage riders benefit more from synthetic oil. A low mileage rider will typically change oil annually, with fewer miles that would have led to breakdown of the oil. Anti-corrosion additives dissipate with time, so even a bike without many miles needs an oil change, probably annually.
Well, I wouldn't push back too hard on your statement, but it's actually more subtle than either of us are making the issue. I would have been more accurate if I put it this way: riders who put a lot of HIGHWAY miles on their bikes, perhaps 20-30K miles a year, may not get as much benefit from full synthetic as other riders. That's because the bike is running under nearly ideal conditions as far as temperature and engine RPM. There is unlikely to be significant water or fuel build up in the oil, unlikely to be condensation building up in the crankcase, and unlikely to be significant sludge build up because the oil is moving all day long at maximum pressure and velocity. Riders like this are doing three or four oil changes a year. In the video I sort of made the assumption that anyone doing that kind of mileage is doing it on the highway and not back roads at 30 MPH. It should also be mentioned that the bike model makes a difference. Something like the RT with a dry clutch and a separate transmission with it's own fluid is going to be different than a bike with a wet clutch and the trans bathed in engine oil. Personally I run full synthetic in all my bikes regardless of use because I think the additional cost is trivial compared to the benefit.
The viscosity index improver chemicals used in full syn oils are typically of higher quality than those used in typical conventional oils. The end result is better viscosity retention over the usually longer oil change interval of a synthetic oil. This is especially important in a shared sump motorcycle where the gears meshing constantly tend to shear the cheaper viscosity index improver molecules quite fast. Lots of people tout their use of Rotella diesel oils in their shared sump bikes, which is usually fine, but smooth shifting always degraded for me much faster than a high quality motorcycle specific bike oil such as M1 or Amsoil because the diesel oil was not nearly as shear resistant in a shared sump bike, which is brutal to viscosity retention. In the testing I did years ago, the high temp viscosity went from an SAE 40 hot viscosity (15W-40) down to the low range of an SAE 30 in 2500 miles of normal riding here in South Carolina. And not due to fuel dilution! This was mostly normal 30 minute riding trips back and forth to work in nice weather. Within 2-3000 miles, shifting became noticeably worse, due to this viscosity loss using Rotella in that shared sump. Switched to Amsoil 10W-40, recommended by a guy at work, and following his example, I ran that oil 10k miles using their oil filter too and the testing showed good for continued use. But we had already changed oil and filter again. I never go that long anymore because I ride way less now.
Thank you for this and other great videos. I'd say that this is very good advice for 99% of people/situations. However, as an engineer (= anal retentive by nature), I disagree that all oils meeting the same standard are essentially the same. Meeting a standard says nothing about how much each type of oil exceeds that standard. In other words, one oil might be good enough, whereas another might be nothing short of superb. A better oil will make a difference in reliability and especially performance in the long run -- and in some cases even immediately -- primarily by reducing friction more effectively throughout its lifetime. Less friction means less thermal hotspots, wear, etc. Better oils also have greater resistance to sludging and long-term accumulation of garbage in various nooks and crannies. (All of this is obviously an extreme oversimplification, especially for wet clutches, but the overall point is still valid). I mean, I get what you're saying: the vehicle manufacturer has a spec for a reason. And that is very true. However, these specs are the culmination of a design and manufacturing process that starts off with requirements, which usually come down from product management in the form of a wishlist. They'll say something like, "we'd really like, oh I dunno, fewer than 0.2 "major breakdowns" per 1k during the warranty period, and maybe under 10 for 100k mi." These parameters (and even the definition of what a breakdown is) will vary drastically from manufacturer to manufacturer and model to model or even year to year. A lot of simulation, testing (e.g., stress and accelerated aging), as well as experience goes into making these design decisions. However, at least a small portion of it is also, "alright guys, fingers crossed we called out the right spec..." Plus keep in mind that some manufacturers care about long-term reliability a lot more than others, who might actually prefer you buy a new vehicle from them, since reliability is not their main selling point or claim to fame. So, to summarize: if you buy a regular plain new Honda for a reliable 50k miles, at which point you'll dispose of it and won't care about what happens to it afterwards... then yes, your advice is absolutely on point. And to be fair, something along those lines probably describes most situations. However, if you plan on keeping your baby forever, or abusing it at that desert track, or if you just care to have the best-running vehicle possible, then figuring out the preferred choice of oil for a specific combination of vehicle and application is a lot more involved than simply following a cert (that the oil company chose to get its product tested to for whatever sales/marketing reason as well btw).
An engineer, huh? I would never have guessed. So, my point about the standards could be stated a different way: If an oil meets the industry standard specified by the manufacturer. then it's good enough. Another brand meeting the same minimum standard isn't going to provide a measurable difference in performance. Is it possible that with two oil manufacturers both making a product that meets the same industry specification that one oil is actually exceeding that spec in some way? Sure, it's possible. But if you are that concerned about the quality of your oil you are probably already sending your used oil off to a lab for analysis. What you SHOULD be doing is riding! Make sure you meet the minimum industry spec noted by the manufacturer and move on with your life: great roads await!
Very informative video!!! In 35 years of riding and soooooo many bikes and so many miles, I never ever had to do any major repairs, nor that I ever opened an engine. If the manual says, use 10-30 bike, regular oil and change it every 8K, that's what I would do like clock work. I have a photo on my phone off the manual specs required per bike. Moreover, I found that many OEM oils don't really cost that much more then others. I don't really care who makes the best oil. The same for all oils in the bike. Use what is asked for and you go no wrong and you can sleep good at night.
Have you seen the new motorcycle oils from Supertech at Walmart? 10W-40 and 20W-50. It works great, meets specs, and for half the price at my local store, $5/qt. Sort of like their full syn car oils which I run with a good filter up to 10k miles on the hwy.
Synthetic oil is based from one source, natural gas. Petroleum oil is based from crude oil which is made up of many different types of matter. The main difference in the final products (lubricating oil) is that the molecules that make up the synthetic oil are all consistent in size whereas the petroleum ends up with having many different sized molecules throughout. The best way to explain it would be; would you rather have a ball or roller bearing to have the same size balls/rollers, or, would you prefer to have them all varying in size? Synthetic oil provides and EVEN film of oil - petroleum oil doesn't.
Typically the manufacturer will have a small chart recommending oil viscosity, and that chart relates to temperature. In your example, an area with more extreme high temperatures will do better with a 20w50 than a 10w40. Or, if your area has ambient temps which are lower, such as in a winter, you'll do better with the 10w40. Another factor is that different areas of the world have oil viscosities which are more common. In the US you'll easily find 10w40 and maybe a 20w50, but rarely a 15w40.
I think you could clarify a recurring doubt among beemes: in BMW motorcycles with boxer engines prior to the year 2013 (air cooled and dry clutch) can we use a good JASO MB car classification oil??. Thanks for your attention.
The 2013 and earlier RTs had a dry clutch, like a car or truck, and they are not bathed in engine oil. As a result, there is no concern about meeting requirements for wet clutches. On my 2012 model, the manual asks riders to use the API SF standard, or the ACEA A2 standard (depending on your country) as a minimum. The SF is actually an older API standard, so any oil labeled as API SF, SG, SH, SJ, SL, SM or SN would be appropriate and those standards are often used for cars and trucks too. That said, if you DID use an oil which met both the SF or higher API standard as well as the JASO standard for wet clutches that would also be fine. No harm done. The Mobil1 Racing 4T oil is an example of that. And, there are benefits to using a full synthetic oil, because it will provide better resistance to viscosity breakdown over time, especially since motorcycles tend to be hard on oils in general.
@@tinderboxarts My GS1200 is also from 2012 (AC and dry clutch) and I have always used JASO MA2 lubricants on it, most often Castrol Power 1 Racing 10w-50 JASO MA2, that is, a lubricant developed with additives for submerged disc clutches. I am currently using Motul 7100 10w-60 which seems to work better and will continue to use this one. Comrades who have bikes like mine, like ours, prefer to use good synthetic API SN specification lubricants that are lubricants originally intended for automobiles and therefore do not contain the anti-slip additives for submerged clutches, we may think that they are wrong and that they should use JASO MA/MA2 specification lubricants?. that's the question: can you use a good car oil in a BMW boxer dry clutch AC engine?. Thank you for your attention.
We're saying the same thing, but I think you have two standards confused. For your bike you do not NEED to use an oil with a JASO MA2 standard, but it will do no harm. The JASO MA2 standard relates only to the wet clutch. However, you DO need to pay attention to the API standard, which applies to cars, trucks OR bikes. I looked up the oil you referenced--the Motul 7100 (it's not available in my area so I was unfamiliar with it.) That oil does meet the API Standards SN/SM/SL/SJ/SH/SG so it is suitable for your bike. That said, the viscosity you are using, 10w-60, is not recommended by BMW. The thickest oil they recommend is 10W-50, and that would be for areas with high ambient temperatures. By using the 10w-60 you are risking poor lubrication on start-up, overly high oil pressure, and possibly higher engine temperature due to friction. I'd recommend you drop down to a 10W-50 or even 10w-40 viscosity. My own RT has essentially the same engine as yours, and I have used 10W-40 viscosity in ambient temperatures ranging from 15F to 102F without issue.
@@tinderboxarts Now I consider that you were satisfied with your opinion. You were adamant that we can use good car lubricants on our motorcycles that are dry clutches, that was the point I wanted to see clarified. I will continue using Motul 7100 10w-60 because I felt that this lubricant is the one that best matches my bike to date, here in Brazil the climate is very hot with averages of 25 degrees Celsius during the year and peaks of even more than 40 in many places and very rarely below 10 degrees celsius, yet on cold starts the engine runs very well and, believe me, better than with the SAE 10w-50 specification lubricant (Castrol Power 1 Racing) that I used before. Another point that I considered positive is that the engine has a smoother operation, eliminating the metallic noises from before. I also consider that, being the motorcycle with AC cooling, a slightly denser lubricant suits the Brazilian climate well. By the way, this is the lubricant that KTM recommends for its bigtrails that run around here. Thank you for your kind attention
I am agreeing to all except the fuctional difference between mineral and full synthetic. I have used both types of oils in my bike with exact same specs api sl jaso ma2 and i can tell you that the difference in performance is big mineral is getting the engine hot faster which indicates more friction and the engine burns oil and fuel consumption is worse but it is a small difference in liters like .5 of a liter per 100kms
In the video I mentioned I was making these assertions and you should check it out for yourself, and I mean it! There really is no functional difference other than the viscosity breakdown. You can find a bunch of oil scientists on youtube and elsewhere to explain it. The base oil of full synthetic is refined from natural gas. The base oil of conventional (mineral) oil is refined from some form of crude oil. The resulting molecular structure of each is a little different. Multi-viscosity oil as it breaks down with heat and wear tends to revert to it's base oil state. The base oil of synthetic oil is inherently more stable than that of conventional oil, which requires various chemical stabilizers to meet it's designation. Having said that, it is tough to make a conventional versus synthetic experimental comparison for a number of reasons. Getting two examples of the oils with the exact same additive package is almost impossible. And, certainly impossible to judge without doing a chemical analysis of each oil. So when you compared two oils meeting the same minimum standard that still doesn't mean they had the same additive package, it just means that they both met the minimum API standard. And, there are untold variables which could explain differences you saw in your experiment, including ambient riding temps, fuel type during the test, riding and road conditions, etc. So I don't doubt that you saw a difference, but I am asserting that the difference was not due to synthetic versus conventional but due to some of these other factors. Speaking generally, full synthetic oil is likely to have a better additive package just because manufacturers can charge more for it and market it as a premium product. Conventional oil tends to be marketed strictly on price, and therefore manufacturers have reason to cut as many corners as they can while still meeting the minimum spec. Personally I've switched to full synthetic for all of my vehicles because the price difference is no longer that great in the scheme of things. In a future video I may try to send samples out for a chemical analysis, which could be interesting.
The only thing that I will say about the ACEA specifications is that, by and large, they are not interchangeable with one another. The exceptions to this are ACEA A1/B1 (replaced by A5/B5 and the new A7/B7), and A2/B2 (replaced by A3/B3 and A3/B4 - although A3/B3 is now also obsolete). In effect, there are 12 categories in total, 8 of which are still current, covering what API SN, SP etc. try to cover in one. They are updated regularly, but the code stays the same, and must be fully backwards compatible with all previous versions of that specification. This is because in Europe there is such a huge variety of engines from lots of manufacturers demanding different viscosity grades (A1/B1 and A5/B5 are low viscosity oils) and different emissions systems. The older BMW range such as yours are notable in not requiring motorcycle oils, in fact any A2/B2 (obsolete since 2004), A3/B3 (obsolete since 2021) and A3/B4 oil will more than suffice for that application.
@@tinderboxarts Here in the UK (and the rest of Europe), it's a nightmare. The variety of ACEA requirements is because of manufacturers different HTHS viscosity and emissions requirements, and the concern that older vehicles need a different lubricant to newer ones. On top of that, the manufacturer's have their own standards which if you have a newer vehicle, you must use. The result, as an example of that, is 13 different versions of Mobil Super 3000 in the UK alone, 7 of those in 5W-30 grade!
So for any scooter with dry clutch is better use MB standard than MA or MA2?Or MA or MA2 can damege scooter engine? I just asking bcause my manual say "use SJ MA 10w30 or better oil"....My scooter has dry clutch and dont know which oil is better for engine?
I don't know what kind of clutch your scooter has, but your manual is suggesting an oil with the API minimum SJ standard and the JASO minimum MA standard. The latter is a standard typically associated with a wet clutch, although there may be some other reason the manufacturer made the specification. There's no need to second guess your owners manual, the scooter manufacturer did the research for you. The 10w/30 rating is less common in the states, but you can find it online.
Motorcycle, Car, Truck, Tractor, lawnmower, etc... Just use what is recommended by the Vehicle manufacturer, in the Owners manual. You and your machine will do just fine.
Are you certain about that? I just looked up a manual for the 2018 model year of your bike and it recommends 10w-30 oil, with JASO MA and API SG classifications. Some manufacturers will show a range of viscosity which may vary by temperature, but Honda does not in this case. You should stick with the recommendation. A heavier weight oil like you asked about may cause issues with oil pressure, filtering, etc.
No, there is no difference in that regard. I think you are referring to condensation inside the engine which can occur in certain environmental conditions as the engine cools. This is normal, and it is typically "burned off" the next time the engine is run up to operating temp. In some cases the engine never gets warm enough to burn off all of the water, like when short trips are the norm. In that case it's possible to get a congealed gooey substance over time, which often appears on the oil cap. But, conventional and synthetic oil react the same way to this phenomena.
The one with the SN vs SL doesnt necessarily mean one is better. It could just mean they didnt pay to update their standards because they dont need it.
I guess the point is that with each new generation the previous standard is incorporated into the new standard, meaning that it provides at least the same measure of protection. You don't need to second-guess it. However, I understand some of the brand new automotive standards will be stand-alone due to unique differences.
The MA2 is not superior, it's just different. Your scooter does not have a wet clutch (I assume) so the MA or MA2 standards really do not apply. In your case the MB standard oil might give you slightly better fuel economy because it has friction modifiers which the MA and MA2 standard oils cannot have or a wet clutch might slip. So if you can stay with the MB standard oil, which is probably cheaper, you might as well. If all you can get is an MA or MA2 standard oil it probably won't hurt anything other than your fuel mileage. Stick with MB if you can.
Both my bikes call for a synthetic blend oil. I use a blend because I change the oil and filter every 3000 miles. Both bikes are water cooled, why use a full synthetic oil, waste of money in my own opinion.
You didn't mention which bikes you own. A synthetic blend will offer a little more protection against breakdown due to heat and shear forces than a conventional oil, but less than a full synthetic. As such, you cannot go as many miles between changes compared to full synthetic. If you are changing your oil and filter every three thousand miles, that's probably more expensive than if you used full synthetic and changed every 6000 miles, for example. A 6000 mile interval is fairly standard in the industry. I'm actually curious about two other factors, though. I don't even recall seeing a blended oil for sale which meets a JASO standard for a wet clutch. Maybe you have a bike with a dry clutch? Further, don't you find a 3000 mile interval limiting? I do trips which are over 6000 miles and I would hate to have to find a place to change my oil.
Okay, those are both a little unique. The Can Am is more like a car in it's approach. That manufacturer does recommend shorter intervals for oil changes. The Honda has a 4K interval and does require a JASO specification oil, so make sure whatever you are buying complies with that. For the majority of modern bikes, though, the intervals are much longer and it makes sense both financially and technically to use a full synthetic with the longer interval. That said, there is no question that anything motorcycle related, including oils, has a premium price associated with it. They see us coming.
Tell BMW only clowns look at the Owners manual, I been using Valvoline 4T Full Synthetic 10W-40 on the s1000rr, its worked better then anything else ive used in the past.
Crystal clear, as usual! Thx. Btw, I made a link of this vid on the bmwsporttouring.com forum - I hope you don't mind. (www.bmwsporttouring.com/topic/97268-what-brand-engine-oil-used-in-2016-r1200rt/) Greetings.. Ed.
Very well said. Great information. I am an Amsoil Independent Dealer here in Central Florida. I do not claim to know all. However through videos like yours, I get to ser and learn nit only what Amsoil training says but through educated consumers say as well. I'm drinking from a well of motor enthusiast like yourself. I really appreciated what you said. It does matter. We have a lot of good brands. One of the differences between the other brands and Amsoil is that you get to know your Amsoil Dealer, plus you have access to the engineer tech team at Amsoil. Not to mention you get to support a local guy vs the bigger guys. We eat at a local dinner vs McDonald's or Burger King. However, you get to choose who you do business with. I personally would love to have your business and get to know you. People do business with people they know, like and trust. Happy riding. 🏁🗽🇺🇲
Thank you profusely for your detailed explanations! I feel so much more informed. I'm 60 years old and have been riding and racing for 52 of those years. But I never really educated myself about oil and it's classifications. I have a Moto Guzzi V85TT with a dry clutch. In addition to the manufacturer's recommendations, I am now armed with the proper knowledge to select the oil for this bike. I don't really need any JASO oil (though it is mentioned in the manual). An auto oil with the proper rating (SL - also mentioned in the manual) will do fine. Anyway, thanks again!!!
John, another excellent video! As someone with over 30 years experience in both the petroleum industry and automotive repairs, you information on oil standards and grading is very simplified and to the point without getting into all the engineering and technical details. It gets to the point and give the average consumer and rider what they really need to know to choose an oil. The one point about brands is that if they meet a standard no matter the brand they meet the standard and will work, but some of the bigger name brands do have warranties against engine failure, although limited and not easy to prove related to oil. The interesting thing about the BMW recommendation to use Castrol oil in your manual is that Castrol was a long time partner with BMW and used to make oil for BMW Motorrad and BMW until more recently when BMW switched to oil made by Shell. BMW Advantec is essentially Shell PurePlus Synthetic oil that uses natural gas converted to the base oil in a gas to liquid process.
Thanks! It's really tough to try and condense all this information into a short video. The making of full synthetic oil is really a fascinating process and probably deserves it's own video. I would also be very curious to know who actually makes all the various generic brands or the re-labeled brands out there. I saw a video recently which included chemical analysis of the Walmart rebranded synthetic oil and the additive package was quite good. There are bargains to be had without compromising quality.
16:45 - I disagree with the argument that a rider who puts a lot of miles on a bike doesn't need synthetic oil because they'll be changing it more often. Viscosity breakdown leading to sludge and varnish is a function of heat and time, and that largely correlates to miles. High mileage riders benefit more from synthetic oil. A low mileage rider will typically change oil annually, with fewer miles that would have led to breakdown of the oil. Anti-corrosion additives dissipate with time, so even a bike without many miles needs an oil change, probably annually.
Well, I wouldn't push back too hard on your statement, but it's actually more subtle than either of us are making the issue. I would have been more accurate if I put it this way: riders who put a lot of HIGHWAY miles on their bikes, perhaps 20-30K miles a year, may not get as much benefit from full synthetic as other riders. That's because the bike is running under nearly ideal conditions as far as temperature and engine RPM. There is unlikely to be significant water or fuel build up in the oil, unlikely to be condensation building up in the crankcase, and unlikely to be significant sludge build up because the oil is moving all day long at maximum pressure and velocity. Riders like this are doing three or four oil changes a year. In the video I sort of made the assumption that anyone doing that kind of mileage is doing it on the highway and not back roads at 30 MPH.
It should also be mentioned that the bike model makes a difference. Something like the RT with a dry clutch and a separate transmission with it's own fluid is going to be different than a bike with a wet clutch and the trans bathed in engine oil. Personally I run full synthetic in all my bikes regardless of use because I think the additional cost is trivial compared to the benefit.
@@tinderboxarts - I think we are in complete concurrence. :-)
The viscosity index improver chemicals used in full syn oils are typically of higher quality than those used in typical conventional oils. The end result is better viscosity retention over the usually longer oil change interval of a synthetic oil. This is especially important in a shared sump motorcycle where the gears meshing constantly tend to shear the cheaper viscosity index improver molecules quite fast. Lots of people tout their use of Rotella diesel oils in their shared sump bikes, which is usually fine, but smooth shifting always degraded for me much faster than a high quality motorcycle specific bike oil such as M1 or Amsoil because the diesel oil was not nearly as shear resistant in a shared sump bike, which is brutal to viscosity retention. In the testing I did years ago, the high temp viscosity went from an SAE 40 hot viscosity (15W-40) down to the low range of an SAE 30 in 2500 miles of normal riding here in South Carolina. And not due to fuel dilution! This was mostly normal 30 minute riding trips back and forth to work in nice weather. Within 2-3000 miles, shifting became noticeably worse, due to this viscosity loss using Rotella in that shared sump. Switched to Amsoil 10W-40, recommended by a guy at work, and following his example, I ran that oil 10k miles using their oil filter too and the testing showed good for continued use. But we had already changed oil and filter again. I never go that long anymore because I ride way less now.
Nice explanation! Very good info that I can use! You are a no BS guy
Great vid. I've been having a devil of a time choosing oil for my 2006 Kawasaki ER-5. Your info on this is very helpful. Cheers! 👍
Thank you for this and other great videos. I'd say that this is very good advice for 99% of people/situations. However, as an engineer (= anal retentive by nature), I disagree that all oils meeting the same standard are essentially the same. Meeting a standard says nothing about how much each type of oil exceeds that standard. In other words, one oil might be good enough, whereas another might be nothing short of superb. A better oil will make a difference in reliability and especially performance in the long run -- and in some cases even immediately -- primarily by reducing friction more effectively throughout its lifetime. Less friction means less thermal hotspots, wear, etc. Better oils also have greater resistance to sludging and long-term accumulation of garbage in various nooks and crannies. (All of this is obviously an extreme oversimplification, especially for wet clutches, but the overall point is still valid). I mean, I get what you're saying: the vehicle manufacturer has a spec for a reason. And that is very true. However, these specs are the culmination of a design and manufacturing process that starts off with requirements, which usually come down from product management in the form of a wishlist. They'll say something like, "we'd really like, oh I dunno, fewer than 0.2 "major breakdowns" per 1k during the warranty period, and maybe under 10 for 100k mi." These parameters (and even the definition of what a breakdown is) will vary drastically from manufacturer to manufacturer and model to model or even year to year. A lot of simulation, testing (e.g., stress and accelerated aging), as well as experience goes into making these design decisions. However, at least a small portion of it is also, "alright guys, fingers crossed we called out the right spec..." Plus keep in mind that some manufacturers care about long-term reliability a lot more than others, who might actually prefer you buy a new vehicle from them, since reliability is not their main selling point or claim to fame. So, to summarize: if you buy a regular plain new Honda for a reliable 50k miles, at which point you'll dispose of it and won't care about what happens to it afterwards... then yes, your advice is absolutely on point. And to be fair, something along those lines probably describes most situations. However, if you plan on keeping your baby forever, or abusing it at that desert track, or if you just care to have the best-running vehicle possible, then figuring out the preferred choice of oil for a specific combination of vehicle and application is a lot more involved than simply following a cert (that the oil company chose to get its product tested to for whatever sales/marketing reason as well btw).
An engineer, huh? I would never have guessed. So, my point about the standards could be stated a different way: If an oil meets the industry standard specified by the manufacturer. then it's good enough. Another brand meeting the same minimum standard isn't going to provide a measurable difference in performance. Is it possible that with two oil manufacturers both making a product that meets the same industry specification that one oil is actually exceeding that spec in some way? Sure, it's possible. But if you are that concerned about the quality of your oil you are probably already sending your used oil off to a lab for analysis. What you SHOULD be doing is riding! Make sure you meet the minimum industry spec noted by the manufacturer and move on with your life: great roads await!
I will never look at oil the same way again. Thanks for this great info. Well done. BTW, I use Amzoil and will be looking at their ratings.
Very informative video!!! In 35 years of riding and soooooo many bikes and so many miles, I never ever had to do any major repairs, nor that I ever opened an engine. If the manual says, use 10-30 bike, regular oil and change it every 8K, that's what I would do like clock work. I have a photo on my phone off the manual specs required per bike. Moreover, I found that many OEM oils don't really cost that much more then others. I don't really care who makes the best oil. The same for all oils in the bike. Use what is asked for and you go no wrong and you can sleep good at night.
Have you seen the new motorcycle oils from Supertech at Walmart? 10W-40 and 20W-50. It works great, meets specs, and for half the price at my local store, $5/qt. Sort of like their full syn car oils which I run with a good filter up to 10k miles on the hwy.
I have not seen that yet. The Walmarts near me are not well stocked at all in the automotive sections, so you are way ahead of me!
Synthetic oil is based from one source, natural gas. Petroleum oil is based from crude oil which is made up of many different types of matter. The main difference in the final products (lubricating oil) is that the molecules that make up the synthetic oil are all consistent in size whereas the petroleum ends up with having many different sized molecules throughout. The best way to explain it would be; would you rather have a ball or roller bearing to have the same size balls/rollers, or, would you prefer to have them all varying in size? Synthetic oil provides and EVEN film of oil - petroleum oil doesn't.
Creating from Algeria,
Excellent video, simplicity is beauty
Got like and subscribe.
Like very much this video... Excelent work... Thank you very much John...
For your bonneville manufacturer recommends 10w40 or 20w50.
It seems weird they say this. One could infer 15w40 should be ok since 15w
Typically the manufacturer will have a small chart recommending oil viscosity, and that chart relates to temperature. In your example, an area with more extreme high temperatures will do better with a 20w50 than a 10w40. Or, if your area has ambient temps which are lower, such as in a winter, you'll do better with the 10w40. Another factor is that different areas of the world have oil viscosities which are more common. In the US you'll easily find 10w40 and maybe a 20w50, but rarely a 15w40.
I think you could clarify a recurring doubt among beemes: in BMW motorcycles with boxer engines prior to the year 2013 (air cooled and dry clutch) can we use a good JASO MB car classification oil??. Thanks for your attention.
The 2013 and earlier RTs had a dry clutch, like a car or truck, and they are not bathed in engine oil. As a result, there is no concern about meeting requirements for wet clutches. On my 2012 model, the manual asks riders to use the API SF standard, or the ACEA A2 standard (depending on your country) as a minimum. The SF is actually an older API standard, so any oil labeled as API SF, SG, SH, SJ, SL, SM or SN would be appropriate and those standards are often used for cars and trucks too. That said, if you DID use an oil which met both the SF or higher API standard as well as the JASO standard for wet clutches that would also be fine. No harm done. The Mobil1 Racing 4T oil is an example of that. And, there are benefits to using a full synthetic oil, because it will provide better resistance to viscosity breakdown over time, especially since motorcycles tend to be hard on oils in general.
@@tinderboxarts
My GS1200 is also from 2012 (AC and dry clutch) and I have always used JASO MA2 lubricants on it, most often Castrol Power 1 Racing 10w-50 JASO MA2, that is, a lubricant developed with additives for submerged disc clutches. I am currently using Motul 7100 10w-60 which seems to work better and will continue to use this one. Comrades who have bikes like mine, like ours, prefer to use good synthetic API SN specification lubricants that are lubricants originally intended for automobiles and therefore do not contain the anti-slip additives for submerged clutches, we may think that they are wrong and that they should use JASO MA/MA2 specification lubricants?. that's the question: can you use a good car oil in a BMW boxer dry clutch AC engine?. Thank you for your attention.
We're saying the same thing, but I think you have two standards confused. For your bike you do not NEED to use an oil with a JASO MA2 standard, but it will do no harm. The JASO MA2 standard relates only to the wet clutch. However, you DO need to pay attention to the API standard, which applies to cars, trucks OR bikes. I looked up the oil you referenced--the Motul 7100 (it's not available in my area so I was unfamiliar with it.) That oil does meet the API Standards SN/SM/SL/SJ/SH/SG so it is suitable for your bike. That said, the viscosity you are using, 10w-60, is not recommended by BMW. The thickest oil they recommend is 10W-50, and that would be for areas with high ambient temperatures. By using the 10w-60 you are risking poor lubrication on start-up, overly high oil pressure, and possibly higher engine temperature due to friction. I'd recommend you drop down to a 10W-50 or even 10w-40 viscosity. My own RT has essentially the same engine as yours, and I have used 10W-40 viscosity in ambient temperatures ranging from 15F to 102F without issue.
@@tinderboxarts Now I consider that you were satisfied with your opinion. You were adamant that we can use good car lubricants on our motorcycles that are dry clutches, that was the point I wanted to see clarified. I will continue using Motul 7100 10w-60 because I felt that this lubricant is the one that best matches my bike to date, here in Brazil the climate is very hot with averages of 25 degrees Celsius during the year and peaks of even more than 40 in many places and very rarely below 10 degrees celsius, yet on cold starts the engine runs very well and, believe me, better than with the SAE 10w-50 specification lubricant (Castrol Power 1 Racing) that I used before. Another point that I considered positive is that the engine has a smoother operation, eliminating the metallic noises from before. I also consider that, being the motorcycle with AC cooling, a slightly denser lubricant suits the Brazilian climate well. By the way, this is the lubricant that KTM recommends for its bigtrails that run around here. Thank you for your kind attention
Excellent video John - Many thanks. Clearly explains required standards and what matters when buying oils.
I am agreeing to all except the fuctional difference between mineral and full synthetic. I have used both types of oils in my bike with exact same specs api sl jaso ma2 and i can tell you that the difference in performance is big mineral is getting the engine hot faster which indicates more friction and the engine burns oil and fuel consumption is worse but it is a small difference in liters like .5 of a liter per 100kms
In the video I mentioned I was making these assertions and you should check it out for yourself, and I mean it! There really is no functional difference other than the viscosity breakdown. You can find a bunch of oil scientists on youtube and elsewhere to explain it. The base oil of full synthetic is refined from natural gas. The base oil of conventional (mineral) oil is refined from some form of crude oil. The resulting molecular structure of each is a little different. Multi-viscosity oil as it breaks down with heat and wear tends to revert to it's base oil state. The base oil of synthetic oil is inherently more stable than that of conventional oil, which requires various chemical stabilizers to meet it's designation.
Having said that, it is tough to make a conventional versus synthetic experimental comparison for a number of reasons. Getting two examples of the oils with the exact same additive package is almost impossible. And, certainly impossible to judge without doing a chemical analysis of each oil. So when you compared two oils meeting the same minimum standard that still doesn't mean they had the same additive package, it just means that they both met the minimum API standard. And, there are untold variables which could explain differences you saw in your experiment, including ambient riding temps, fuel type during the test, riding and road conditions, etc. So I don't doubt that you saw a difference, but I am asserting that the difference was not due to synthetic versus conventional but due to some of these other factors. Speaking generally, full synthetic oil is likely to have a better additive package just because manufacturers can charge more for it and market it as a premium product. Conventional oil tends to be marketed strictly on price, and therefore manufacturers have reason to cut as many corners as they can while still meeting the minimum spec. Personally I've switched to full synthetic for all of my vehicles because the price difference is no longer that great in the scheme of things. In a future video I may try to send samples out for a chemical analysis, which could be interesting.
The only thing that I will say about the ACEA specifications is that, by and large, they are not interchangeable with one another. The exceptions to this are ACEA A1/B1 (replaced by A5/B5 and the new A7/B7), and A2/B2 (replaced by A3/B3 and A3/B4 - although A3/B3 is now also obsolete). In effect, there are 12 categories in total, 8 of which are still current, covering what API SN, SP etc. try to cover in one.
They are updated regularly, but the code stays the same, and must be fully backwards compatible with all previous versions of that specification. This is because in Europe there is such a huge variety of engines from lots of manufacturers demanding different viscosity grades (A1/B1 and A5/B5 are low viscosity oils) and different emissions systems. The older BMW range such as yours are notable in not requiring motorcycle oils, in fact any A2/B2 (obsolete since 2004), A3/B3 (obsolete since 2021) and A3/B4 oil will more than suffice for that application.
Yeah, I didn't get into the European standards in this video. It does seem crazy the industry couldn't make things a little more simple!
@@tinderboxarts Here in the UK (and the rest of Europe), it's a nightmare. The variety of ACEA requirements is because of manufacturers different HTHS viscosity and emissions requirements, and the concern that older vehicles need a different lubricant to newer ones. On top of that, the manufacturer's have their own standards which if you have a newer vehicle, you must use. The result, as an example of that, is 13 different versions of Mobil Super 3000 in the UK alone, 7 of those in 5W-30 grade!
Man, a wet clutch is when you leave your bike out in the rain 🌧️ !
So for any scooter with dry clutch is better use MB standard than MA or MA2?Or MA or MA2 can damege scooter engine?
I just asking bcause my manual say "use SJ MA 10w30 or better oil"....My scooter has dry clutch and dont know which oil is better for engine?
I don't know what kind of clutch your scooter has, but your manual is suggesting an oil with the API minimum SJ standard and the JASO minimum MA standard. The latter is a standard typically associated with a wet clutch, although there may be some other reason the manufacturer made the specification. There's no need to second guess your owners manual, the scooter manufacturer did the research for you. The 10w/30 rating is less common in the states, but you can find it online.
Motorcycle, Car, Truck, Tractor, lawnmower, etc...
Just use what is recommended by the Vehicle manufacturer, in the Owners manual. You and your machine will do just fine.
SOOOOOOO CORRECT !!!!!!!!!!! That is my bible.
JASO MA2 use by honda shine bs6?
You'd have to check your owner's manual, but if it has a wet clutch then probably that is appropriate.
This is a real gem. Thanks sir fot you wisdom:)
I own a Honda Montesa trials bike, they recommend a 5w30, can I use 5w40 for using it for trail riding?
Are you certain about that? I just looked up a manual for the 2018 model year of your bike and it recommends 10w-30 oil, with JASO MA and API SG classifications. Some manufacturers will show a range of viscosity which may vary by temperature, but Honda does not in this case. You should stick with the recommendation. A heavier weight oil like you asked about may cause issues with oil pressure, filtering, etc.
Excellent commentary
Brilliant explanation....thx 👏👏👏
Thank you so much.
This is Rohit from India.
Thanks for watching!
Isn’t conventional oil more prone to sludge created from humidity of the air compared to fully synthetic oils?
No, there is no difference in that regard. I think you are referring to condensation inside the engine which can occur in certain environmental conditions as the engine cools. This is normal, and it is typically "burned off" the next time the engine is run up to operating temp. In some cases the engine never gets warm enough to burn off all of the water, like when short trips are the norm. In that case it's possible to get a congealed gooey substance over time, which often appears on the oil cap. But, conventional and synthetic oil react the same way to this phenomena.
The one with the SN vs SL doesnt necessarily mean one is better. It could just mean they didnt pay to update their standards because they dont need it.
These manufacturers pay an annual fee to be a part of the standards program, as far as I know.
The SL may have a higher zddp content than the SN, so is it possible the SL could he the better oil with better anti wear additives???
I guess the point is that with each new generation the previous standard is incorporated into the new standard, meaning that it provides at least the same measure of protection. You don't need to second-guess it. However, I understand some of the brand new automotive standards will be stand-alone due to unique differences.
My scooter needs JASO MB can i use MA2 instead cuz its more superior ?
The MA2 is not superior, it's just different. Your scooter does not have a wet clutch (I assume) so the MA or MA2 standards really do not apply. In your case the MB standard oil might give you slightly better fuel economy because it has friction modifiers which the MA and MA2 standard oils cannot have or a wet clutch might slip. So if you can stay with the MB standard oil, which is probably cheaper, you might as well. If all you can get is an MA or MA2 standard oil it probably won't hurt anything other than your fuel mileage. Stick with MB if you can.
Good stuff 👍
very nice👍
Very interesting. Thank you!
Any engine oil just for scooter look api sn jaso mb???
Whatever the vehicle, the manufacturer should give you the oil requirements in the manual.
Both my bikes call for a synthetic blend oil. I use a blend because I change the oil and filter every 3000 miles. Both bikes are water cooled, why use a full synthetic oil, waste of money in my own opinion.
You didn't mention which bikes you own. A synthetic blend will offer a little more protection against breakdown due to heat and shear forces than a conventional oil, but less than a full synthetic. As such, you cannot go as many miles between changes compared to full synthetic. If you are changing your oil and filter every three thousand miles, that's probably more expensive than if you used full synthetic and changed every 6000 miles, for example. A 6000 mile interval is fairly standard in the industry. I'm actually curious about two other factors, though. I don't even recall seeing a blended oil for sale which meets a JASO standard for a wet clutch. Maybe you have a bike with a dry clutch? Further, don't you find a 3000 mile interval limiting? I do trips which are over 6000 miles and I would hate to have to find a place to change my oil.
@@tinderboxarts I have a CanAm Spyer and a Honda Fury.
Okay, those are both a little unique. The Can Am is more like a car in it's approach. That manufacturer does recommend shorter intervals for oil changes. The Honda has a 4K interval and does require a JASO specification oil, so make sure whatever you are buying complies with that. For the majority of modern bikes, though, the intervals are much longer and it makes sense both financially and technically to use a full synthetic with the longer interval. That said, there is no question that anything motorcycle related, including oils, has a premium price associated with it. They see us coming.
Tell BMW only clowns look at the Owners manual, I been using Valvoline 4T Full Synthetic 10W-40 on the s1000rr, its worked better then anything else ive used in the past.
Crystal clear, as usual! Thx.
Btw, I made a link of this vid on the bmwsporttouring.com forum - I hope you don't mind.
(www.bmwsporttouring.com/topic/97268-what-brand-engine-oil-used-in-2016-r1200rt/)
Greetings.. Ed.