Was Macedonian a Greek Dialect? 🇬🇷
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ค. 2023
- Did Alexander the Great speak Greek natively? Was the Macedonian language a dialect of Classical Greek like Attic and Doric, or was it a different language entirely? Let's take a look at one of the most important pieces of evidence discovered in the last century that gives us a very clear answer!
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Intro and outro music: Overture of Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute) by Mozart
SOURCES
Greek: A History of the Language and its People, by Geoffrey Horrocks
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Livy, The History of Rome, 31.29.15
www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...
Michael Meier-Brügger, Indo-European linguistics, Walter de Gruyter, 2003, p.28
Hatzopoulos, Miltiades B. (2020). "The speech of the ancient Macedonians". Ancient Macedonia.
Masson, Olivier (2003). "[Ancient] Macedonian language". In Hornblower, Simon; Spawforth, Antony (eds.).
Roisman, Worthington, 2010, "A Companion to Ancient Macedonia", Chapter 5: Johannes Engels, "Macedonians and Greeks", p. 95:"This (i.e. Pella curse tablet) has been judged to be the most important ancient testimony to substantiate that Macedonian was a north-western Greek and mainly a Doric dialect".
Dosuna, J. Méndez (2012). "Ancient Macedonian as a Greek dialect: A critical survey on recent work (Greek, English, French, German text)"
#greek #macedonian #alexanderthegreat
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We Greeks don't expect other peoples to teach us our history!! (history, even the word is Greek) we know who Alexander was, who was his grandfather, his father, his mother, his cousin and his whole family!! Alexander conquered almost all of Asia and left Greek inscriptions everywhere in the Greek language!!
But I don’t understand we everybody cares about our heroes and our language and our history!!! Take care about your heroes please ( Spider-Man, Batman,etc etc)
I have my own theory on this...😊
I studied ancient Greek for 10 years and I lived in Greece for 6 years.😮
In ancient Greece, ancient Greek language, there were no such words as homosexual or heterosexual, because the very notion didn't exist.
Everyone had anal sex
Both men and women of culture, hence Theater.🎉
Because anal sex makes you having a look in yourself from outside and it kills the animal inside you.
That's why Greeks called all the people who didn't have anal sex : barbarians....
And that's why they had a theater...
PS: Greek people nowadays really hate the truth because the orthodox church hates Hellenism and closed the academy of Platon in 529 and all the gymnasia and killed 30 000 teachers to make sure nobody is going to learn how to read and write, that was in 532 and the dark middle ages started.
People even started to believe earth was flat, before everyone knew it was a sphere.
So that's why I don't live in Greece anymore, those people have real issues.
Since 2010 one Million of Greeks moved abroad because they can't stand those fascist Greeks that live there now, the majority of them....
Platon wrote that everyone is born a barbarian and that it takes many years of morphosis to become a Hellen.
Nowadays those fascists in Greece say that you can be born Hellen 😂
Lmao, one of the most stupid nation I ever lived in 😂
@@athanasioskaraviotis5987
Make yourself a DNA test, it costs just 70 Euro and you'll finally understand that you're just a Turk 😂
@@athanasioskaraviotis5987 Δες το βίντεο και όχι τον τίτλο
Only Greeks could participate in the Ancient Greek Olympics. Macedonians participated in the Ancient Greek Olympics. Therefore, Macedonians were Greek.
You seem to not know history:
A) Macedonians did not get to participate.
B) Only the royal household did, AFTER they provided proof they descended from Greece.
@@Aleks_Ovski416 You have no idea what you're talking about...Kliton of Macedon was the Olympian of the stadium race in the 113th Olympiad and he was definitely not royalty...btw you're not "Macedonians" but confused Bulgarians
@@apmoy70 btw, the academic world doesn't agree, cope harder and go learn about genetics and Balkan history. Greeks are mixed with Turks and Slavs haha cope.
@@Aleks_Ovski416I don't care about genetics, Greekness has always been a cultural identity and not a racial one, Τὸ τῶν Ἑλλήνων ὄνομα πεποίηκε μηκέτι τοῦ γένους ἀλλὰ τῆς διανοίας δοκεῖν εἶναι καὶ μᾶλλον Ἕλληνας καλεῖσθαι τῶν τῆς παιδεύσεως τῆς ἡμετέρας ἤ τῶν τῆς κοινῆς φύσεως μετέχοντας - Isocrates
Exactly
We have a lot of examples of Greeks lobbing charges of being "barbarians" at each other. Athenians even accused eachother of that.
Every bad Greek was a barbarian (same still goes for today, unfortunately they are the majority these days... 400 years of Turkish occupation harmed the country immensely. But I think we are getting somewhere).
@@georgenic64 That's complicated to be honest. It's kinda bad to blame the Turkish Occupation, many Greeks (Romans at the time) were prestigious and fluent economically (especially the ones in Anatolia). The ones you are referring to ironically were the Romans of Rumelia and of course the Arvanites (whom were Greek speaking populations from Modern day Albania). Most of the Eastern influences were mostly blamed on the Turkish Occupation when the Hellenic Republic was created in 1830 in favor to the Western Hellenic perception. But what if i told you that the Greeks always had Eastern influences and always called the Westerners Barbarians? 🤔.
@@demetriusstiakkogiannakes1326 What the fuck are you talking about ?? Of course back then the Western Europeans were barbarians. Question is what happens now… what you say about the Arvanites and the Greeks from Rumeli is completely irrelevant
@@iumaser3219 Sorry but what you say is wrong. The non-Greeks were indeed barbarians and the word had the meaning back then as uncivilized (how can it not be like this when they were living in caves like the primitive man and the Greeks were exceling in arts, science, complex architecture and many many more...). That is of course the reason why the Roman Empire was Hellinised in the later years,
cause everyhting magestic in science, literature etc... was produced by the Greeks
They was barbarian, half of them was thracian origins
To the fellow Greeks who got clickbaited, no worries, YES the Macedonians were a northern Greek people and YES they spoke a rough but intelligible dialect of Greek. The overwhelming majority of archaeological evidence supports that, and as far as Demosthenes is concerned, the words of one of their Athenian sworn enemies should be taken with a huge grain of salt. That's all.
And please, don't bring our confused northern neighbors into this or be rude to @polyMATHY_Luke, he asks a fair question and provides a fair and balanced analysis. There's nothing wrong with asking a question.
Indeed; in fact it’s possible that the Macedonian dialect was perfectly intelligible to the southern Greeks and that the latter were just being silly. We have very little testimony of any kind. But if we go by the Pella curse tablet it was just Greek
@@polyMATHY_Lukeexcept pela tablet another great archaeological finding was the Derveni papyrus that is classified as the oldest book in Europe and again the greek language in this papyrus is some weird dialect .
@@polyMATHY_LukeI think that some Athenian,for example,accounts were intentionally making seem like the Macedonian dialect was further apart from other Greek dialects,just because they were resentful and didn't like the Macedonians or their ruling system
@@thegreekguy1124sounds like people from Hamburg talking about us Bavarians.
As a native modern Greek, and having been brought up with the Demotiki language and pronunciation, I find it sometimes very difficult to understand older people from Thessaly when they speak with a heavy accent. And when Demosthenes called those "tall guys" (Makednos) from up north barbarians, I guess it was meant more like "hillbillies" rather than the literal meaning of the word. Χαίρε και υγίαινε!!
I really don't see why... we speak perfect Greek in Thessaly. "γρν", "πλι", "τσεντσαντσαλι", etc...
@@StergiosMekras Δεν ξερω αν τους εντυσαν τους αλλοι, αλλα σ'αγαπαω! ΧΑΑΑΑΑΧΑΧΑΧΑΑΑΑ!!!!
@@StergiosMekrasτο γρν και το πλι εντάξει το κατάλαβα γουρούνι και πουλί αλλά το τσένταρ.... τί είναι 😂
@@ellinmakedon1216 αυτά είναι πιο προηγμένα... Η σωστή απάντηση πάντως, είναι "σαντσεντσαντι"
@@JohnyTanguero ωραίος! Και ναι, ο διάλογος μεταξύ Θεσσαλών νεοσυλλέκτων γύρω στο 1970
I once read that the names of Ptolemaic nobility (who were largely Macedonian) were mostly Doric which would also support the idea that the old Macedonian language was Doric or related to Doric. Apparently it was still spoken among the elites at some Hellenistic courts, at least during the early Hellenistic period.
Absolutely
Thousands of inscriptions have been discovered by archaeology, all Greek
The language spoken by the peasant Macedonians is proved by the "binding of Pella" a text in the Doric dialect, of the 4th century BC, from a simple tomb of a peasant woman. It is the same dialect spoken by the Spartans, the Corinthians, the Megara, Troizina, Argos. Can you tell the story in wikipedia > of the 4th century BC
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet
Doric like Spartan?
@@cossav2560 he Greeks were divided into 4 main tribes Aeolians Ionians Achaeans and Dorians
Aeolians are the Thebans and Thessalians
Iones are the Athenians, the Chalcidians, or Miletos, or Ephesus
achaeans are the ones who fought the trojan war long ago and now they are in decline and live in the northern peloponnese and western greece
Dorians are Sparta, Corinth, Argos and also the Macedonians
@@cossav2560 Close but rather related to northwest doric like greek of epirus rather than peloponnesian doric /doric proper which laconian/spartan belongs to though the α in place off attic-ionic η still remains as well as some other changes, so its more related but a bit different than the spartan/laconian doric
Am from the island of Cyprus , we speak the cyprus dialect which it origins from the ancient greek with some words that a remnants from the colonization of other nations on the island . If i speaknto a greek from Athens for example with heavy cypriot accent he will only understand 60% of what am saying but i speak to someone from the islands of Rodos or Crete they will undrstand me 99%
Yu sllavis rusia go home 🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜🚜
@@nezirkrasniqi72 Caucasus Albania 🤣 your homes in Azerbaijan 😂
i m from rodos.Athenians say that we sound like you,i m sure we can understand you better than them because we to0 have a strong accent .but we both pronounce many words differently and thats what makes it hard to understand each other ..plus we speak fast.i d say we understand like 90% of what you say.i love all greek dialects,they are pieces of history.
A lot of Greeks did not speak the same dialect as the later standardized Koine (Common) Greek, derived from the Attic dialect, which is why the standardized version was needed and ended up so popular and widespread. Ancient Macedonian was definitely a version of Ancient Greek, their names and words have clear Greek based origin and etymology. Much love to beautiful and immortal Greece from Serbia 💙🤍💙🤍💙🤍
The common Greek language was popularised after the scholars of the times of Alexander the great simplified ancient Greek to be more accessible to the tribes he have conquered, so in Greece right now they talk the already simplified version of the Greeks they spoke in the ancient times, that's why modern Greek have nothing to with ancient Greek at all, its like they are completely different languages
@@dimifisher7942 You're wrong. The vast majority of modern Greek words (not loan words from other languages) etymologically have roots in ancient Greek. So they are not completely different languages as you say.
@@Geomatsk try and find an original really ancient greek text and compare it with a current one and you ll see what i mean, the similarities are insignificant, they have the same root for sure, but it really seems they are different languages, also do not forget that many current greek words are mostly of turkish or latin origin, sometimes even english!
Koine,Koin-Коњ-Horse-Koin-Kovan-it means to forge in Macedonian,which means that was the alphabet and language they forged on coins,also modern English word coin comes from Koin,which means to forge and a horse,and that's where the last name ending kovski comes from,the word Kovan or Koin,which also means horse. In the Ancient Macedonian language the i or y letter which has an i sound and is the modern j letter which sounds a bit different than the i,has turned from y or i into a v,so words with the i letter have changed to words with the v letter,that's why the ancient Macedonian word Koin has turned into the word Kovan,same with the names from Alexandroy,readed as Alexandroi has turned into Alexandrov,again the i has turned into a v,so our ancient names would end in oi instead of the more modern ov which was forcefully changed over time,so yes we are Macedonians,not the Greeks.
@@dimifisher7942you know we don't use Turkish words in daily Life and the english languages have to many greek words and in modern greek the most of words have root in ancient Greek so dont speak if you dont known
It’s pretty relatable in a way that Attic Greeks would talk about the Macedonians and the way they speak in that way!
Even nowadays Greeks of different regions do the same thing (in a more friendly manner). My mother is Peloponnesian and her best friend is Cypriot and they always rib each other about the ‘weird’ Greek the other speaks.
Να ‘σαι καλά, Λουκάς!
True. I live in Rhodes and my father learned to speak Greek here. He later moved back to Germany and took Greek lessons there. His teacher wad from Athens and would constantly tease my father about his pronunciation and vocabulary not being Greek, but "Anatolian". But of course people on Rhodes speak Greek, it just is a dialect similar to Cypriot.
Pontic Greek is also very difficult to be understood by Grecians! Cyprus has also many dialects and very heavy accents that many Cypriots cannot understand each other!
Tis very true, Cypriot Greek is unintelligible to standard modern Greek if the Cypriot speaker chooses to use all the most divergent words and phrases.
I knew Luke would have a nuanced interpretation.
@@helgaioannidis9365
God how I hate those teachers that want to kill all the dialects, and languages and impose in bloody french revolutin manner the standard, a.k.a the politics chosen one.
😁the most funny dialect I heard is on Crete, south west village named Sougia.
The particular word is fifty: "peninda"
They say almost "pedinda" 🤣🤣
It’s so fun seeing someone walk around my home city talking about Greek where my Greek family moved to when they came here in the 70s
Saying Macedonians are not Greek, its like saying Austrians are not Germanic.
Or as saying that New Yorkers are not Americans
People from north Macedonia are mostly not greek
@@goatgamer001 «North Macedonia» has nothing to do with ancient Macedonia
or like saying that North Macedonians are not Bulgarian
@@BoyanCRACKS which they are
Hope this reaches Luke: In southern Italy there is a very ancient dialect of greek still spoken (Salento and Calabria), grecanico, a variant of greek descendant from the Magna Graecia and the Byzantine times. Maybe grecanico is hundreds if not thousands years old! but now is fighting to survive.
What, I come from Calabria and do not speak greacono at all. We have a dialect of the Italian language. Not Greek.at all.
@marcpaola1371 they speak it in some villages....
@jimskoutas1933 maybe, I have family all around Calabria and they haven't come across people speaking grecanio. Must be a very tinny group
@marcpaola1371 yes it is sadly. It's slowly dying
5:42 As you say, the term “barbarian” did mean foreigner and/or non Greek-speaking, indeed. However, word meanings have all sorts of nuances. Thus, “barbarian” also came to mean uneducated, primitive, less developed in matters of language and culture compared to what was perceived as the norm. As such, it could-and indeed was-used for Greek peoples too, especially those who lived at the frontiers of the Greek world and couldn’t rival the erudition of classical Athens. Remember, the Greek world was an amalgamation of ethnic groups (Ionians, Dorians, Aeolians) with all sorts of dialects, local customs and history, geopolitical affiliations and government systems-not a nation-state. Macedonians were not unique in this regard.
οἱ δὲ Θρᾷκες καὶ Ἰλλυριοὶ καὶ Ἠπειρῶται καὶ μέχρι νῦν ἐν πλευραῖς εἰσιν: ἔτι μέντοι μᾶλλον πρότερον ἢ νῦν, ὅπου γε καὶ τῆς ἐν τῷ παρόντι Ἑλλάδος ἀναντιλέκτως οὔσης τὴν πολλὴν οἱ βάρβαροι ἔχουσι, Μακεδονίαν μὲν Θρᾷκες καί τινα μέρη τῆς Θετταλίας, Ἀκαρνανίας δὲ καὶ Αἰτωλίας τὰ ἄνω Θεσπρωτοὶ καὶ Κασσωπαῖοι καὶ Ἀμφίλοχοι καὶ Μολοττοὶ καὶ Ἀθαμᾶνες, Ἠπειρωτικὰ ἔθνη.
And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks; indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians-Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes-Epeirotic tribes.
Strabo, Geography 7.7.1
As you can see, not only are Greek/Hellenized tribes like the Athamanians are called barbarians, probably for their obscure origin and cultural backwardness (from their part, they identified as Greeks, of course), but Macedonia is listed among the par excellence Greek territories that are partly held by the barbarians, namely Thracians.
Hillary would have called them "deplorables." (-:
No it didn't!!!👀
Most Romans didn't speak Greek yet they weren't considered barbarians....
@@Rasarel They were. The Greeks of southern Italy called the Romans barbarians. In fact, the greek king Pyrrhus after the battle of Heraclea said:
"We call these guys barbarians, but this army doesn't look very barbaric to me"
@@deniszt.6302
Ok, I had in mind 100BC-100AD
The Roman golden age classical period.
Because in those times Romans have been studying Greek since childhood..☀️
Do you have actual proof that the word barbaric was used this way during this time or is it again just baseless interpretations because the original meaning being just non greek makes the most sense.
And the added meanings of the words could have evolved much later in time which makes it impossible to prove
Macedonia was, is and will be Greek
It is almost certain that even the name MAKEDONIA is of Greek etymology, because the Macedonians are called MAKEDNON by Herodotus, and the same word is used in Homers Odyssey to describe things that are TALL.
First Herodotus:
👇🏻
".. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, *in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory which it called MAKEDNON;* from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, *where it took the name of Dorian* .."
-Herodotus
[Histories 1.56.3]
«.. ἐπὶ μὲν γὰρ Δευκαλίωνος βασιλέος οἴκεε γῆν τὴν Φθιῶτιν, ἐπὶ δὲ Δώρου τοῦ Ἕλληνος τὴν ὑπὸ τὴν Ὄσσαν τε καὶ τὸν Ὄλυμπον χώρην, καλεομένην δὲ Ἱστιαιῶτιν: ἐκ δὲ τῆς Ἱστιαιώτιδος ὡς ἐξανέστη ὑπὸ Καδμείων, οἴκεε ἐν Πίνδῳ *Μακεδνὸν* καλεόμενον: ἐνθεῦτεν δὲ αὖτις ἐς τὴν Δρυοπίδα μετέβη καὶ ἐκ τῆς Δρυοπίδος οὕτω ἐς Πελοπόννησον ἐλθὸν *Δωρικὸν ἐκλήθη* ..»
-Ἡρόδοτος
[Ἱστορίαι 1.56.3]
NOTE: Notice how he talks about the migrations of these people that came to be known as the Dorians & how they first settled in a Region & called it Macedonia. DORIANS are 100% a Greek people, one of the major tribes of the Ancient Greeks.
And here is Homer using the word to describe something TALL:
👇🏻
".. and others weave webs, or, as they sit, twirl the yarn, like unto the leaves of a *TALL* poplar tree; and from the closely-woven linen the soft olive oil drips down .."
-Homer
[Odyssey 7.105-106]
«.. αἱ δ᾽ ἱστοὺς ὑφόωσι καὶ ἠλάκατα στρωφῶσιν ἥμεναι, οἷά τε φύλλα *Μακεδνῆς* αἰγείροιο: καιρουσσέων δ᾽ ὀθονέων ἀπολείβεται ὑγρὸν ἔλαιον ..»
-Όμηρος
[Ὀδύσσεια 7.105-106]
*ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΝ = ΜΑΚΕΔΝΗΣ* it is formed by the same root WORD 100% it just has different declensions because one describes an object, and the other is used to describe the Name of a Region. They are documented by our Ancient sources as being referred to a few variations of this word, but for the most part the people would have come to call themselves ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΙ [ΟΙ = plural] and ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΣ [singular] and then through Metathesis it would eventually become ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ. It is important to NOTE that the Macedonian dialect shows DORIC Greek Dialectal forms as opposed to IONIAN ATTIC Greek. One of the primary differences between these two Greek dialects is the Shift between Α & Η (E sound). This is why the root of this word ΜΑΚΟΣ (MAKOS) was pronounced by Athenians as ΜΗΚΟΣ (MEKOS). Today, in modern Greek, the IONIAN ATTIC form survives, the precursor to Koine & the "chosen" of the Macedonians themselves!
About the name & it’s meaning. According to Herodotus, the Original Macedonian Dorians first settled in the Highlands west of the Plateau & they lived next to a group of people who called themselves Orestai and their region Orestes which we know meant something like "Mountain Men", which is why most Linguists believe that MAKEDNOI, who also lived in the Mountainous Territories next to them probably called themselves "Highlanders" or People who lived UP HIGH or TALL AREAS. [They later moved down to the Plains & drove away the Pierians as Herodotus tells us]. The name could also be for their actual Physical Height as well, we are not sure, but the first theory is the most likely.
7:00 In modern day Greece, there are at least 5 dialects (from Crete to Macedonia) that a non local Greek will be hard pressed to understand the spoken language , so the premise of this video holds true to this day.
and there used to be around 15 or more dialects back in byzantine times
would you call present day people from thesalloniki "barbarians" or "foreign"?
would you need them to prove in court they are greek?
@@d3r4g45 Well, if you are a representative sample of the area in question it would be a hard case indeed.
Joking aside, you totally missed that there were political reasons for the name calling and any differences in language didn't really matter. If he couldn't make a case about the way they speak, it would be about gods or social habits anything that would unite his audience against a common "alien enemy".
It is standard practice that is widely used to this day by politicians around the world.
My paternal grandmother only spoke Greek but as a city child I could barely understand a word she said. She had a peculiar accent and was using various local idioms passed on by generations of old. Because she grew up and spent her entire life until she died in a remote village of farmers most of which never even went to school, there was no tv not even radio when she was growing up. People think in today's terms, but not too long ago things were much different. Languages diversify over the years, local dialects spring or merge spontaneously and communication exchange was never what we think of as today not even a century ago. Never mind internet, tv or radio, not even cars were available. Entire communities were living their entire lives in what would today be described as isolation, generation after generation after generation. This "single","standardised" language paradigm is a myth that only really begun in history when compulsory education became a thing. Macedonians obviously spoke a Greek dialect and so did the rest in ancient Greece, they also had their own local dialects. But it's rather obvious if someone is using Greek alphabet, Greek words, and has a Greek name and only ever left anything in Greek. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's probably a duck
In the video, I affirm my conviction that Macedonian speech was part of the system of Classical Greek dialects. But we don’t have very much evidence to go on; the usage of Greek names doesn’t tell us much since there are thousands of Gaulish and Germanic people in history who used Latin names and spoke Latin only as a secondary language for administrative or political purposes, and Egyptians and Syrians who used Greek names. In this case, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it could actually be a goose: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_goose
Or a cormorant: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cormorant
What we need to answer the question are more primary sources of texts written in the native language. The Pella tablet is a good start. Like I said, it’s enough for me, but more discoveries could change our picture.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Sorry, geese don't look like ducks ,and even if you claim that it looks like a duck in the sense that it resembles some gigantic albino duck form, they don't quack, they horn, so that's that. As for cormorants they can be confused with ducks about as much as anything with wings can be confused with another bird. Which is to say, not at all.🤣 Birds aside, questions that perhaps the Macedonians and Macedonian language may not have been Greek are 20th century inventions, motivated by 20th political considerations, noone else ever thought otherwise in human history, least of all actual Macedonians. Questioning something based on the complete absence of evidence of anything of the sort questioning it is silly to say the least not to mention choosing to ignore how Macedonians self determined themselves which is clearly documented in what Alexander the great left behind in his own speeches. Because, to say that if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck makes it a cormorant silly as it is, it is one thing. After the point the proverbial duck itself has even told you it's a duck and you still question it you're just arguing for the sake of it.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Change our picture how?
@@polyMATHY_LukeI think you are wrong about the Onomastics Luke. Again, there is CONTEXT that you are missing with those statements. I think you know what I am talking about, if you have actually studied the Onomastic traditions of the Ancient Macedonians & the "spread" of the Hellenic Names at that point in time. Add that context & compare the Percentages per culture & the answer is beyond obvious! 👍🏻
@@polyMATHY_Luke that seems like a fair point. Although I am open to other theories regarding Macedonians, like you said maybe it was used a secondary administrative language for political reasons as Germanics with Latin, but the fact remains that there is zero evidence for any other language used. The Minoans came many centuries ago and wrote both hieroglyphics and later in linear A. We know they weren't Greek cause the evidence support it. Plus Macedonians took part in the Hellenistic Olympic games which was forbiden for "barbarians" after proving their genealogy originating from Argos, Peloponesos possibly one of the Mycanean colonies sometime around or before the dark ages
I could imagine that ancient Macedonian was to Greek what modern Swiss dialects are to modern German.
Someone from Hamburg will not be able to understand a Swiss speaker at all, someone from Bavaria can understand something, someone from Swabia will understand a lot.
Also consider that Greeks from the mainland today find it very difficult to understand Cypriots and Rhodians when they speak their local dialects. Nevertheless those dialects are part of the Greek language group.
Hamburger here can confirm that most non-linguistic north germans have a hard time understanding the swiss dialect even when "clearly" spoken. I myself have been able to understand it due to linguistics background
who are the greeks today? Greece exists for the first time in history in 1821, which is called the beginning of the war against the Ottoman invasion, from the time of Alexander the Great until 1821, we did not write anything about Helenen , not a single note, not a single thing, The Ottoman Empire did a census of the population every 5 years based on the religion and the language they spoke at home. before the Ottoman Empire, there were the Venetians who had population registrations in the areas under the rule of Venice and around it. we have the formation of the Greek State for the first time in History, we also have heroes who fought and died for Greece in 1821,and all 100 Heroes are Albanians,the Majority in Greece in the year 1830 are Albanians mean Arvanites ,in Athen the Kadaster from Athen have 8000 Houses. the most of them are living Albanian speaking population the minority are other Ethnies.Around Athens living 100 % Albanian People .
Some folks don't mince their words. Let us also remember the Tsakonians & Pontic Greeks. It is only a century since the reform of the Ottoman Empire's Anatolian territories into modern Turkey alienated the Greeks from ancestral aboriginal homelands there pre-dating Hellenic Greece. Among those were Caria of which the term Barbarian was first coined. And what of the Trojans? The Latins claimed them for ancestral family, but did they speak Aromance tongue? Was Wilusan the ancestor of Wallacian Vlach - a relative of Albanian - the ancestral tongue of Egypt's last dynasty?
@@kocoqape8061 the people living today in Greece are people descending from the populations around the whole Mediterranean and the black sea who settled there in the millennium BC and who spoke Ελληνικά. The descendants of those first settlers kept speaking Ελληνικά throughout the last 3000 years and still speak Ελληνικά. In fact the Greek communities in Egypt, Ukraine , Romania and Italy up to today speak Ελληνικά and identify as Έλληνες (Hellenes).
Due to the various Balkan wars and especially due to the treaty of Lausanne many Greeks living today in Greece have ancestors from areas outside the borders of the country, because the Greek speaking minorities were expelled (many also were killed, but that's another story). So in fact most Greeks living today descend partly from the Greek populations that used to live in today Turkiye, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Romania, Albania and Egypt.
Keep in mind all conquerors of the Greeks were in numbers a minority on the Greek territories. The Romans, the Venetians, the Knights, the Turks and the Italians never outnumbered the local population and due to religious issues they also rarely mixed.
On the other hand modern Turks due to the deshvirne system and the habit of wealthy Turks to have Christian female slaves for sex and procreation, have in large proportion ancestors from the local Christian populations they conquered, especially Greek and Armenian.
So if you think modern Greeks do not descend from ancient Greeks, you're misinformed. It's just that they moved around a lot in the last 3000 years.
@@helgaioannidis9365 His comment wasn't really worth answering. He is obviously delusional. He will soon argue there are no Kurds - because there exist no Kurdish state.
They certainly did not speak slavic like our northern neighbours who are just confused bulgarians
Slavs simple were not there in that time period
@@ermirdestani i know they came to the balkans 900 years after Alexander the Great died which makes their claims of being the descendants of the ancient macedonians hilarious they are just some uneducated bulgarians that live in a fantasy
they certainly were not ortodoxi christi, used a white and blue toilet paper stripes as a flag, or were half black turko-gipsy mix, like the wannabe present day "ancient hellens"
All the Macedonians had Greek names. Stop Vardarskan or anyone else's propaganda
"Έστι μεν ουν Ελλάς και η Μακεδονία."
Στράβων
This is just one of countless pieces of supporting evidence you can find in ancient Greek literature and history that Macedonians were Greeks.
"To know that you do not know is the best.
To think you know when you do not know is a disease.
Recognizing this disease as a disease is to be free of it."
Lao Tzu
Did you listen to the video?
He compared Ancient Macedonians with Ancient Greeks as French and Italian..
The Macedonians participate in the Ancient Greek Olympics.They had on ther coins Greek names ,on evry ancient stone there is somthing on Greek , alexandros ,filipos,antipas,krateros only Greek names,the royal Macedonian family was from Argos.The religion was the same ,the calender,the star of Vergina is a Greek simbol,the language was a Greek dialect.Everybody on the world would like to take the Glory of Alexander the Great but its belong to the Greeks -Hellens.
The name Alexander originates from the Greek: Ἀλέξανδρος (Aléxandros; 'defending men'[2] or 'protector of men'). It is a compound of the verb ἀλέξειν (aléxein; 'to ward off, avert, defend')[3] and the noun ἀνήρ (anḗr, genitive: ἀνδρός, andrós; meaning 'man').
Philip, also Phillip, is a male given name, derived from the Greek Φίλιππος (Philippos, lit. "horse-loving" or "fond of horses"[1][2]), from a compound of φίλος (philos, "dear", "loved", "loving") and ἵππος (hippos, "horse").
So, Alexander and his father had both Greek compound names but maybe they were speaking a.... Martian language.Who knows? 🙂
"For me every virtuous foreigner is a Greek and every evil Greek worse than a Barbarian. ”
--- Alexander the Great ---
I liked that "bar bar bar" part 😂
AND his mother name was not Ivanena or Mariska but Ολυμπιαδα
panos komenos floyd malaka
Alexander is Makedon not Helene ,Greece never exist you ignorant ,tell me moore re malaka for Alexander Mother ,shi is Epirotan ,not from Athens ,and the. Mother from Philip is Illyrian Origin Dardanian near to Ohrid Sea to day ,
the Dialekts in Helenic league and Illyrian spoke a same Language just other Dialect u idiot .Dimitrios Bethanis Profesor universitet Athen,..look youtube.U change the new Artifficial Greek language from King Otto the first ,this lenguage is different than the old language .u told this Language Archea Elenika . is not Greek ,this language no body spoke at home ,was language for Administration and believe .and you have the DNA from people in Balkan and u see wich from where is come from .the most of Greek people have Asian Origin .Helene from Asia .u understand me Helene from Asia .if u thing that you are Helene u have to check first that u are Arvanite / Albanian ,if u ask your great grandfather wich language spoke home than we talk about your Origine ,or u look your family name than u know where are u from and your Origin ,is simple .
Hmm so all the Alexs and Phils today are Greek? Someone should tell them..... :)))
@@forrestorange If your name is Alex or Phil, no it does not mean that you are a Greek :)
But if your name is "Αλέξανδρος" or "Φίλιππος" then you are probably a Greek, unless there is another language with the exact names and the specific letters that we don't know.
@@skourabora8411 Ολυμπιαδα was barbaroi! Everyone knows this, a little education and historical information is enough.
Some ancient as well as Byzantine sources point out that the Macedonians use B instead of Φ (and sometimes Δ instead of Θ) in human names, in religious adjectives, and in
months of the Macedonian calendar. The grammarians and lexicographers argue that the anthroponym "Phila" e.g. corresponded to the Macedonian Bíla or already from
the end of the classical era "Vila".
This difference was considered by most linguists and philologists as absolutely basic, and separated Macedonian from all the other Greek dialects -- Mycenaean Greek included, because it suggested a different consonant development in its phonological system. That is, according to this theory, the Indo-European dasea sounds *bh, *dh, *gh they had turned in Greek in voiceless dasea [ph, th, kh] ( Φ, Θ, X respectively) having lost resonance, while in Macedonian Greek they have been translated respectively to [b d g] (Β, Δ, Γ respectively), that is, they have lost completely their dasea.
And concerning the use of Alphabet, there are written evidence of the use of Corinthian alpabet in the 6th century B.C, probably because of the close trading ties of the Macedonians with the Corinthian nearby colonies. This was later replaced by Ionian alphabet, when Ionians, under Persians dominated trade in the area and after the Greek-Persian wars and the gradual retreat of Persians from European lands, the Ionian alphabet got replaced by Attic.
I have always just known it as a fact that Macedonian Greek was a Doric dialect, I don't really understand what the debate is about 😅
Thanks for a really interesting video Luke 👏😎
Exactly. They were from the Argead dynasty from Argos, Greece were they spoke the Doric dialect.
Well he did say it's like comparing Italian with French..
@@d3r4g45 ?? Irrelevant
@@georgenic64 why lol?
Probably because some contemporaries also claim it seemed more Ionian. There might've actually been two different dialects there.
Thank you Luke for speaking so balanced and being so respectful about an issue that we still defend today!
Except that the US doesn't, and never did if truth were told. The idea that John Adams cared about real democracy is so absurd.
Are you kidding me? Yes it was. Alexander's dynasty was called Argead, which means from Argos. In fact, when Macedonians had to compete in the Olympics, they had to prove their Greekness and they did.
Hahaha go cry like a baby. Alexander is 🇲🇰
I' m Greek and I know my Language. Alexander's Father was named Filipos. In Greek Language filos means friend and ippos is the horse. Filipos is someone who likes horses very much. His mother's name was Olimpiada. It means the time among Olympic Games, four years. Alexander (Αλέξανδρος) is somebody who protects the people (Άλεξ = protect Αλεξίσφαιρο = bullet proof, Άνδρας = man). His Sister name was Thessaloniki. In Thessaly was a Greek Tribe that Filipos Conquered. Nike means Victory. Filipos named his daughter Thessaloniki, in memory of this victory. All these names are Greek. Alexander's horse name was Voukefalas. Vous is the Ox. Kefali is the head. Voukefalas means a very big head, like oxAll his Generals had Greek Names. Macedonians loved the same Gods and took part in Olympic Games
The internet is full of videos of filos that love horses ippos
On a more serious note, do they teach all Greeks in primary school to recite this?
@@AleksPTA all Greeks Know the meaning o word Φίλος. It means Friend
Awesome insight! (I'm currently learning Greek). Ευχαριστω!
Bro imagine if you were greek and didn't know your language lol
@@AleksPTAgood one bro
1) They spoke a Greek dialect
2) They had Greek personal names
3) They had Greek Royal names
4) They had Greek place names (e.g Pella, Aegae, Thessaloniki, Amphipolis etc
5) the ordinary tombstone ( for the simple people ) they had inscriptions in Greek
6) They worshipped Greek gods
7) they proudly proclaimed that they were Greeks
8)They had Greek names for the months of the year
9) They participated in the Olympic games where only Greeks were allowed to participate
10) The cultural milieu of the Macedonians was Greek
11) The coins they minted in their millions was Greek
12) The Temples they built were Greek
13) The legacy they left from Egypt to India was Greek.
so you didn't watch the video..
@@d3r4g45 The things the comment above states are technically true. Even if he did not watch the video he did not write anything false. The most important one is the fact that they partook in the Olympic games which where stricktly and only for Greek tribes no "barbarians" where allowed to take part in the Olympic games.
@@d3r4g45no basically you didn't understand what the video said it seems, or can't you ?
I think that one of the biggest proofs that the Macedonians were Greeks is that Alexander the Great spread the Greek language to India. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to spread his supposed "Macedonian"? 250 years after Alexander, in 85-70 BC, Αmyntas Nikator and the Greek Macedonian rulers of Bactria, in today's Pakistani Punjab, will mint coins in the Greek language
While I affirm in the video that Macedonian was likely a dialect of West Greek, that wasn’t the variety that Alexander brought to India and elsewhere. He brought the Attic dialect, which became known as Koine after Alexander’s death. Attic was the prestige dialect in the Greek world, and Alexander and his father sought to legitimize Macedonian rule of Greece by adopting and promoting Attic.
Russia under Peter and Catherine did the a similar thing, using French (not a Slavic language) as the language of the court and of culture.
@@polyMATHY_Luke
Yes Luke you are right. Philip firstly introduced Attic dialect into Macedonians ' everyday life.
@@polyMATHY_Luke
A little quiz: who called the Ancient Macedonians these things & what do they all mean?
👇🏻
Yona
Yonaraja
Yauna
Yavana
Graeci
Hellenes
@@polyMATHY_Luke
".. The third great Gulf of Europe begins at the mountains of Acroceraunia, and ends at the Hellespont, embracing an extent of 2500 miles, exclusive of the sea-line of nineteen smaller gulfs. Upon it are Epirus, Acarnania, Aetolia, Phocis, Locris, Achaia, Messenia, Laconia, Argolis, Megaris, Attica, Boeotia; and again, upon the other sea, the same Phocis and Locris, Doris, Phthiotis, Thessalia, Magnesia, Macedonia and Thracia. All the fabulous lore of Greece, as well as the effulgence of her literature, first shone forth upon the banks of this Gulf. We shall therefore dwell a little the longer upon it .."
-Pliny the Elder
[Natural History 4.1]
".. tertius europae sinus acrocerauniis incipit montibus, finitur hellesponto, amplectitur praeter minores sinus [30xix]30 [xxv] passuum. in eo epiros, acarnania, aetolia, phocis, locris, achaia, messenia, laconica, argolis, megaris, attice, boeotia iterumque ab alio mari eadem phocis et locris, doris, phthiotis, thessalia, magnesia, macedonia, thracia. omnis graeciae fabulositas sicut et litterarum claritas ex hoc primum sinu effulsit, quapropter paululum in eo conmorabimur .."
-Gaius Plinius Secundus
[Naturalis Historia 4.1]
".. Pompey had issued a proclamation at Amphipolis, enjoining all the youth of the province, whether Greeks or Romans, to join him in arms. But whether this was with intent to conceal his real design of retreating much farther, or to try to maintain his ground in Macedonia, if nobody pursued him, is hard to determine .."
-Caesar
[The Civil War 3.102.2-4]
".. erat edictum Pompei nomine Amphipoli propositum, uti omnes eius provinciae iuniores, Graeci civesque Romani, iurandi causa convenirent. sed utrum avertendae suspicionis causa Pompeius proposuisset, ut quam diutissime longioris fugae consilium occultaret, an novis dilectibus, si nemo premeret, Macedoniam tenere conaretur, existimari non poterat .."
-Caesar
[De Bello Civili 3.102.2-4]
".. Of that mother why should I take time to say more, as though I had not to recite a special encomium on her who is the theme of my speech? But so much perhaps I may say briefly and you may hear without weariness, that her family is entirely Greek, yes Greek of the purest stock, and her native city [Thessaloniki] was the metropolis of Macedonia, and she was more self-controlled than Evadne the wife of Capaneus, and the famous Laodameia of Thessaly .."
-Julian the Apostate
[Panegyric to Empress Eusebia 110]
".. Achilles my ancestor I strove to rival, but Heracles I ever admired and followed, so far as a mere man may follow in the footsteps of a god .."
-Julian the Apostate
[The Caesars 325]
ENDLESS Sources + ENTIRE MATERIAL CULTURE + SELF DETERMINATION. LOL.
Keep Feeding the albano-slavic trolls! We know what the imposters since Charlemagne have been doing, & we also know who the TRUE Descendants of the Greeks & Romans are. Farya Faraji’s comment to you about who those were didn’t seem to "sit well" with you on the live. We know why. The Barbaric Germanics have been playing this game for centuries now. They thought we would be eliminated, but we are still here, and our past echo is turning slowly into the thunders Hellenic Roar of the past:
👇🏻
".. *Many Greeks are celebrated* some for their glory and riches, others for their speech and buildings or even for their great wisdom... *but the most distinguished of all of them* that first conquered himself and then reached so far as to almost encircle the world and even captured time itself *is the one that became the Great Emperor Alexander* .."
-Demetrius Chrysoloras
[Lambros PP3: 222]
«.. *Πολλοῖς Ἑλλήνων ὑμνῆσθαι* παισίν ἐξεγένετο, τοῖς μέν εἰς δόξαν ἤ πλοῦτον, ἄλλοις δέ εἰς παρρησίαν ἤ κτίσματα ἤ καί τό μέγιστον εἰς σοφίαν… *Ἀλλ’ ὁ μέχρι περάτων αὐτῶν* ἐπικαταλαμβάνων τῶν εἰς ἕω καί τάς δυσμάς ἔφθασε τήν οἰκουμένην ἐν κύκλω σχεδόν ἅπασαν κατασχών καί βραχεῖ χρόνω *γενόμενος μέγας αὐτοκράτωρ Ἀλέξανδρος* ..».
-Δημήτριος Χρυσολωράς
[Λάμπρος ΠΠ3: 222]
[Manuel Chrysoloras about "Byzantines"]
".. *whether someone calls us Hellenes or Romans, that is what we are* and *we safeguard the succession of Alexander* and that of those after him .."
-Manuel Chrysoloras
[Exhortation on behalf of the Genus]
«.. *Ἕλληνας βούλοιτό τις λέγειν εἴτε Ῥωμαίους, ἡμεῖς ἐσμὲν ἐκεῖνοι καὶ τὴν Ἀλεξάνδρου* δὲ καὶ τῶν μετ’ ἐκείνων *ἡμεῖς σώζομεν διαδοχήν* ..»
-Μανουήλ Χρυσολωράς
[Παρακίνησις ὑπὲρ τοῦ Γένους]
STOP Feeding the trolls Luke! Stop the clickbait for the cheap likes & views at the Expense of the Hellenes! This Stolen-Valor BS & riding if coattails will not go unnoticed forever. The Barbarian Charlemagnism will be shattered in the end by our Modern Hellenic Falanxes & Katafraktoi 🇬🇷
@@polyMATHY_Luke
Down with the Barbarian imposter Charlemagnism!
We will Rise Again & destroy all this Propaganda against the Hellenic Nation! We know who we are, and even more terrifying for all the detractors, YOU KNOW who we are! 🇬🇷✊🏻
👇🏻
".. *whether someone calls us Hellenes or Romans, that is what we are* and *we safeguard the succession of Alexander* and that of those after him .."
-Manuel Chrysoloras
[Exhortation on behalf of the Genus]
«.. *Ἕλληνας βούλοιτό τις λέγειν εἴτε Ῥωμαίους, ἡμεῖς ἐσμὲν ἐκεῖνοι καὶ τὴν Ἀλεξάνδρου* δὲ καὶ τῶν μετ’ ἐκείνων *ἡμεῖς σώζομεν διαδοχήν* ..»
-Μανουήλ Χρυσολωράς
[Παρακίνησις ὑπὲρ τοῦ Γένους]
And we are coming to destroy all this Propaganda that is being spread on Purpose since the time that the Barbarians have approached OUR SEA:
Μεγάλη Θάλασσα / Ήμετέρα Θάλασσα / ἡ Θάλασσα ἡ καθ'ἡμᾶς
So it begins again:
«.. Ἀνερρίφθω κύβος ..»
".. He [Caesar] declared in Greek with loud voice to those who were present: 'Let a die be cast' and led the army across .."
-Plutarch
[Parallel Lives | Pompey 60.2]
«.. Ἑλληνιστὶ πρὸς τοὺς παρόντας ἐκβοήσας: «Ἀνερρίφθω κύβος» διεβίβαζε τὸν στρατόν ..»
-Πλούταρχος
[Βίοι Παράλληλοι | Πομπήιος 60.2]
🦅🦅🦅🇬🇷🦅🦅🦅
In no case was it a dialect, but a separate language. There are hundreds of examples from ancient chroniclers that they used a translator to understand each other.
Cite them all.
Great work! What further augments the "Greekness" of Macedon is the Greekness of the name itself. And although this has repeatedly been stressed, it should be further noted that the particle Μακ-, which also appears as μηκ- in other Greek dialects and which refers to length of height/stature, is used to this day throughout Greek, as in μακρύς δρόμος = long road, μήκος = length, μακρόκοσμος=macrocosm, etc.
According to you, the word "Grieci" should be the ancient Romans themselves because it is a Latin word. lol
@@ermirdestaniABSOLUTELY NOT!
The word GRAIKOI is of GREEK ULTIMATE ORIGIN….NOT LATIN 😃
My suggestion: Read more Books 📚 from PHD Historians & Linguists & skip the "cheap-thrill" google search Propaganda! 👍🏻
@@SpartanLeonidas1821 No it is not. Just make a research in diferent sites and you will see. Here is what i found "From Latin Graeci, the name given by the Romans to the people who called themselves the Hellenes, from Greek Graiko.", there is nothing wrong here.
@@SpartanLeonidas1821 First, change your nickname, then tell me what to read.
@konstantintrehagyrevopoulo972 can you proove that "AL@ANIANS came to the region from Al@ania-kaukasus 1200 A.D"??? The word Albania is a Latin name and there are many such. Maybe the Albanians came from Scotland because Scotland it is also called Alba by the locals.
I read the tablet and it reads like a simplified version of classical Greek. I had no doubt i was reading Greek
Indeed, that was my feeling.
@@polyMATHY_Luke yeah ok ``indeed`` so then how can you say that south Greeks could not understand the Makedonians ?
@polyMATHY_Luke It was sometime ago...I couldn't understand some of the words but it was clearly something similar to Koini Elliniki which made me wonder whether Alexander coined a new language or just simply adapted Attic Greek to his own dialect ...I'm not familiar with linguistics, when was the tablet written and when was koini invented??
@@user-kf5yl2ek2c perhaps the same way a modern greek will not understand 80% of Cypriots speaking while he will undestand 90% of it if he read the same in text.
@@nikoszaronakis1862 δεν μπορείς να καταλάβεις τους Κύπριους ; Εγώ μπορώ πολύ άνετα …
There is not such a language.
The real Macedonians were Greeks. They spoke the ancient greek language.
Our stupid politicians created this non- existent language.
@@user-re8rm6ys5j
Your history is 0
Great video. What about their names, which are Greek? For example:
Alexander is the English version of Alexandros, whose roots are 'Alex' and 'Andras'. Alex in Greek means protect / beat off and Andras means man. Alexandros means the one who protects from men (enemies in that case). Other words in Greek with Alex root: (a) Alexikeravno (lighting rod - protects from lighting - keravnos is lighting in Greek); (b) Alexisfero (bullet proof vest - protects from sfera - sfera is bullet in Greek).
Alexander's father Philip: Philip is the English version of Philippos; the roots of the name are 'Philos' and 'Ippos'. Philos in Greek means friend (e.g., philanthropy - anthropos is human in Greek). Ippos is horse in Greek (e.g., hippopotamus: the horse of the river - potamos is river in Greek).
Alexander's half sister Thessaloniki: the roots of the name are 'Thessaly' and 'Niki'. Thessaly is the region in Greece south of Macedonia. Niki is the Greek word for victory (thus Nike the brand). The name honors the Macedonian victory at the Battle of Crocus Field (352 BC). The name was also given to the Greek city of Thessaloniki, founded around 315 BC by King Cassander of Macedon.
Cassander is again a Greek name: the roots are 'Kekasmai', meaning to shine / excel over, and 'Andras / Anir', meaning man. The name means the one who excels over man.
Protect = προστατεύω
Well another thing would be the names. In the Aigae tombstones we clearly see that the names of the Macedonians were Greek. Even more, they Greek names not found in southern Greece. And when I say Greek names I of course mean names or words in general than mean something in Greek such as the names Philip and Alexander. Or Amyntas ( the one that defends) or many others. Macedonians participated in the Olympics, they worshipped the same gods with the southern Greeks, no inscriptions have been found in any other language (spoken by the native population) other than Greek. Philip when declared the hegemon of Greece after Chaironea of course believed in an idea of common Greekness. Alexander slept with a copy of the Iliad under his pillow. He spread the Greek language and culture through out Asia and Egypt. All this is clear evidence that the Macedonians were indeed Greek. Thank you for sticking to facts.
Even with my limited Ancient Greek I was able to make out a fair amount of the Pella Curse Tablet.
Interestingly, to me, a modern greek speaker, the dialect from the tablet of Pella seems much simpler than Attic greek, especially when it comes to syntax. I bet their accent was closer to what Koine was like during the Hellenistic period. It would be funny if their accent was similar to modern Greek, thus they sounded crude to the Athenian snobs, lol.
I experience the same thing. I am a Modern Greek speaker and I have somehow found it easier to understand Homeric Greek (which is a mix of Ionic and Aeolic and therefore closer to Doric) than Classical Attic which is supposedly the closest one to modern,let alone more recent. And also, yeah, that curse text was super easy, almost koine level of easy.
With his image on so many Ancient Greek empire coins, it would be fitting if Alexander's tongue - even before death - bore a little Koine.
@@BlueLena That is because modern Greek does not come from Attic Greek but from the mix of Ionian and Macedonian dialects. I have done the experiment in a history Discord channel of showing several Greek texts from Homeric to Byzantine Greek to modern Greeks of varying levels of competence ranging from zero contact most of them to a few well-versed in ancient Greek (including even one specialist) and throwing in there the Pella Katadesmos. Almost all of the 10-12 people ignored the Pella Katadesmos apart 2 guys (one was the specialist). I had asked them to guess the date and dialect of the texts. Guess what dates people (including the well-versed ones) were giving me! The earliest date was given was 100 BC (i.e. early Roman period!) and the latest was 1100 AD in the Comnenian period! So easy was for them to read, so familiar (even if some words are used differently) that they could understand that this was a curse tablet of a woman cursing another woman because she took her man and was about to marry him, thus the writer was cursing her female enemy's marriage with her man.
This is no accident. This is practical proof that the Koini Greek which is the basis of modern Greek was the evolution of the merge between Macedonian and Ionian. Attic played almost no role in the formation of Koini precisely because Koini was the oral language, Attic remained only the official written language for centuries thus influencing Koini Greek only via its written format and not orally. Attic was in practice the original Katharevousa Greek.
@@dinos9607as a natively Greek speaking person I found it quite a normal normal thing to happen.
The koine Greek was the most spoken form of Greek throughout history, I mean it's self explanatory 😏
And more or less made it right to the period after the Greek war of independence
Modern Greek came to be after Greek linguists started borrow vocabulary from ancient Athenian Greek to " fill the gaps" - for example terms that didn't existed in Greek.
I would also say that katharevousa is closer to Attic although I don't think anyone speak that dialect anymore
In the Ears of a modern Greek teenager would sound " ancient" as well
Modern greek has to do with the now extinct Ancient Hellens from 2500, about the same as modent Egyptian, arab and muslim, has to do with the Ancient Egyptian. About zero.
Γειά σου Λουκά. I don't remember much ancient greek from my school years, but I understood about 80% and the general meaning of the supposed Macedonian language text. I also think it would be extremely difficult for the Macedonians to adopt a completely different language. Again the history books say that Alexander considered himself the king of all the Greeks and not the king of all the Greeks and all the Persians, Egyptians, etc., whom he also conquered.
I agree with you. Although it’s worth noting that Sultan Mehmed II considered himself the legitimate Roman Emperor. That’s not enough for me to think of him as Roman. But I do consider Constantine XI as the last legitimate emperor.
If you want to discuss about north Macedonians, you can't achieve anything with hate. The problem is that the North Macedonians are a nation looking for their identity, but they mistakenly consider themselves descendants of Alexander of Macedon, because that's what some national heroes like Georgi Pulewski proclaimed, but he preached that Alexander the Great was a Slav, but today we know that he is it is impossible, because Ancient Macedonia existed before our era, and the Slavs came to the Balkans even in the 5th century of our era. So you can see that their heroes were people without knowledge, without access to historical research, and therefore they preached such nonsense, and since many North Macedonians also do not have access to knowledge and cannot think, they also believe in such nonsense. Popular in North Macedonia is the ideology of "Macedonism", which is anti-Bulgarian and claims to be descended from Alexander of Macedon. But the best paradox of this ideology is that since North Macedonians are descendants of Alexander of Macedon because his father conquered half of today's North Macedonia, then Bulgarians are Macedonians too because Alexander of Macedon conquered the lands of Bulgaria too, so this whole ideology is ridiculous. However, there is a paradox. Well, they have a history dating back to Antiquity, and they should not worship Alexander of Macedon, because he was the enemy of their ancestors and the occupier of their lands. Why did the Kingdom of Paneonia exist in the lands of today's North Macedonia, first the southern part of this Kingdom was conquered by Philip II, then the Paneans fought with Alexander of Macedon and Alexander of Macedon even made an expedition to Paneonia and made the northern part a dependent state, Macedonians subjected both parts of Paneonia to the policy of Hellenization , qypleniania how to water the Pannonian heritage. Thus, by worshiping Alexander of Macedon, the North Macedonians are spitting on their Pan-Nonian ancestors and worshiping the occupiers of their lands. If that wasn't enough, Ancient Macedonia occupied only the southern part of North Macedonia, so even more North Macedonia has nothing to do with Ancient Macedonia. So, instead of spitting on the North Macedonians, it is better to educate them about their heritage and why they should hate Alexander of Macedon rather than love and worship him.
@@polyMATHY_LukeInteresting! But man, that is quite the STRETCH to even try to compare the two. The turks were a completely FOREIGN people to the region. There is NO WAY that anyone could have mixed that up, even if mehmed was mixed himself & claimed to having avenged the trojans 😅
We should note many historical sources however that simply don’t make sense unless Alexander was Greek. Josephus says that Alexander visited Jerusalem, it has NEVER been proven nor written about by Greek or Roman Authors. HOWEVER, the Fact that Josephus recounts this story at all mentioning that the Jewish Prophecies by Daniel said that a GREEK would take down the Persian Empire would be laughed at if Alexander was not Greek, don’t forget, his major audience was Romans & Greeks as well as Hellenized People at the time:
".. And when the Book of Daniel was showed him wherein Daniel declared that *one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he [Alexander] supposed that himself was the person intended* .."
*-Josephus*
*[Antiquities of the Jews 11.8.5]*
«.. δειχθείσης δ᾽ αὐτῷ τῆς Δανιήλου βίβλου, *ἐν ᾗ τινα τῶν Ἑλλήνων καταλύσειν τὴν Περσῶν ἀρχὴν ἐδήλου, νομίσας αὐτὸς εἶναι ὁ σημαινόμενος* ..»
*-Ιώσηπος Φλάβιος*
*[Ἰουδαϊκή ἀρχαιολογία 11.8.5]*
And the actual "Prophecy":
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".. Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the *prince of Grecia shall come* .."
*-Daniel*
*[Old Testament 10.20 KJV]*
«.. καὶ εἶπεν· εἰ οἶδας, ἱνατί ἦλθον πρός σε; καὶ νῦν ἐπιστρέψω τοῦ πολεμῆσαι μετὰ τοῦ ἄρχοντος Περσῶν· καὶ ἐγὼ ἐξεπορευόμην, καὶ ὁ *ἄρχων τῶν Ἑλλήνων ἤρχετο* ..»
*-Δανιήλ*
*[Παλαιά Διαθήκη 10.20]*
Too many of these "coincidences". Every single nation that encountered Alexander & the Macedonians referred to them as Greeks! Can they ALL be wrong? 🤔
@@ziemowitzmarzy1405 I don't want to talk about politics. it is in the interest of the peoples of all nations to find understanding and peace. At the end we all descend from the same first humans or humanoids.
A modern Greek can read and almost fully understand the text on the Pella Curse Tablet. None can beat this.
Thank you polýMATHY.
After the victory at Granikos river, Alexander sent to the Parthenon in Athens 300 enemy armors with the Greek writting sign "Alexander son of Philip and the Greeks ,without Spartans, from the barbarians who reside in Asia" (from The campaign of Alexander by Arrian).
This was done to thank godess Athena which means he followed the ancient Greek religion!
He wrote "and the Greeks without Spartans" which means that he considered his army, an army of Greeks!
Finally the name Alexander itself is Greek (same as Philip) and means he who can't be vanquished by any man!
I can't imagine someone in ancient times who would adopt a foreign name.
Even today I can't imagine a Christian named Mohammed for example..
Those are undisputed facts. Macedones (the real ones) were and are Greeks.
P.S. I congratulate you for the will to learn Greek but I would like you to be more diligent with the pronunciation. The word "κοινή" is pronounced "kini" (which means common) and not "koine"...
Of course he wrote in Greek language he was taught by one of the greatest writers to ever live. Just because you are living in U.S and write English doesn't mean you are born here. You could be an immigrant from Mexico, Greece, Italian. The Greek language was well known back then just like English it's now. Alexander was a mutt my child. He even fought against the Greeks and whoever stood in front of him. So stop with these nonsense. Biological Alexander had illyrian blood was from Macedonian wrote and spoke multiple languages and conquered everything he could!
@@thepitmanbull1877 Herodotus(Ηρόδοτος), defined the meaning of the word "Nation" as the community of people which has the same blood (όμαιμον), the same language (ομόγλωσσον), the same religion (ομόθρησκον) and the same ethos/customs (ομότροπον). All of these are common in Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks, because they were natives of the Greek peninsula!
The example about the U.S,is irrelevant because they have no relation with the NATIVE people of the land. If it was so, they should be speaking Apache or Cherokee.
By the way... Aristotelis was not a "writer" like Stephen King for example...
He was one of the greatest PHILOSOPHERS my child...
He's using an ancient pronunciation according to a linguistic reconstruction which according to evidence is correct, where as your suggested pronunciation is at best the one of late Byzantine and modern greek not the one of antiquity from Homer to Alexander the Great
*The Macedonians were Greeks*
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The Macedonians were Greek from the very beginning. Even the earliest findings in Macedonia from the 7th Century BC found in Aiani & other parts of Upper Macedon (The Proto Homeland) with names like Themida, Pleoni, & Machatas, are ALL GREEK. Unlike the Illyrians & Thracians who's names had 10% Greek influence (Maximum, due to prestige) the Macedonians were overwhelmingly Greek, their entire culture attests to it! And not just Universal Greek names, many of the Macedonian Names were Epichorial, meaning that they were UNIQUE GREEK NAMES TO MACEDONIA & the MACEDONIANS !!!!
There are many surviving Macedonian words & rules for words that we have. We know the Macedonians used Berenike instead of Ferenike like in Athens for example, or Danos instead of Thanos, Magaira instead of Machaira, Kebali instead of Kefali. We also have, as mentioned in the video, the PELLA CURSE TABLET, most Linguists believe that this is the longest single item that has the Macedonian Dialect on it, and it is undoubtedly Greek.
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1. [ΘΕΤΙ]ΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΟΣ ΤΟ ΤΕΛΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΓΑΜΟΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΡΑΦΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΓΥ
2. [ΝΑΙΚ]ΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΧΗΡΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΩΝ ΜΑΛΙΣΤΑ ΔΕ ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΚΑΤΤΙΘΕΜΑΙ ΜΑΚΡΩΝΙ ΚΑΙ
3. [ΤΟΙΣ] ΔΑΙΜΟΣΙ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΚΑ ΕΓΟ ΤΑΥΤΑ ΔΙΕΛΕΞΑΙΜΙ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΓΝΟΙΗΝ ΠΑΛLΙΝ ΑΝΟΡΟΞΑΣΑ
4. [ΤΟΚΑ] ΓΑΜΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΑ ΠΡΟΤΕΡΟΝ ΔΕ ΜΗ ΜΗ ΓΑΡ ΛΑΒΟΙ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΑ ΑΛΛ Η ΕΜΕ
5. [ΕΜΕ Δ]Ε ΣΥΝΚΑΤΑΓΗΡΑΣΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΙ ΚΑΙ ΜΗΔΕΜΙΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΙΚΕΤΙΣ ΥΜΩΝ ΓΙΝΟ
6. [ΜΑΙ ΦΙΛ]ΑΝ ΟΙΚΤΙΡΕΤΕ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΕΣ ΦΙΛ[Ο]Ι ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ ΦΙΛΩΝ ΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΡΗΜΑ ΑΛΛΑ
7. [....]Α ΦΥΛΑΣΣΕΤΕ ΕΜΙΝ Ο[Π]ΩΣ ΜΗ ΓΙΝΕΤΑΙ ΤΑ[Υ]ΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΚΑ ΚΑΚΩΣ ΘΕΤΙΜΑ ΑΠΟΛΗΤΑΙ
8. [....]ΑΛ[-].ΥΝΜ .. ΕΣΠΛΗΝ ΕΜΟΣ ΕΜΕ ΔΕ [Ε]Υ[Δ]ΑΙΜΟΝΑ ΚΑΙ ΜΑΚΑΡΙΑΝ ΓΕΝΕΣΤΑΙ
9. [-]ΤΟ[.].[-].[..]..Ε.Ε.Ω[?]Α.[.]Ε..ΜΕΓΕ [-]
^^^Any Greek child that has completed Elementary school can understand this even today! The Macedonians are THE BIGGEST reason that the Greeks speak the Greek Language the way they do today since they standardized KOINE, which has changed very little as far as wording & structuring of sentences as well as vocabulary.
Here are a FEW examples of Macedonian Names & Words found in Manuscripts & on Inscriptions they left behind. Almost ALL Ancient Macedonians (99%) had Greek names...all these names & words are Greek, with many being Uniquely "Macedonian Greek". All their Calendar Months, their Troop Formations, their Oronyms, their Hydronyms, their City Names, their Epithets, their Nicknames, & even their Ethnonym..etc:
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Makedonia, Pella, Aegae, Aiani, Amfipolis, Herakleia Lynkestis, Dion, Astraion, Europos, Filippoupoli, Filippoi, Alexandroupoli, Thessaloniki, Alexandreia, Boukefaleia, Eschate, Profthasia, Petra, Xylopolis Archelaos, Karanos, Pausanias, Alexandros, Filippos, Ptolemaios, Seleukos, Antigonos, Antiochos, Demetrios, Kassandros, Lysimachos, Parmenion, Filotas, Krateros, Koinos, Alketas, Argaios, Orestes, Neoptolemos, Arridaios, Archon, Hegelochos, Filoxenos, Menandros, Apollodotos, Leonnatos, Leonidas, Attalos, Amyntas, Hefaistion, Nearchos, Kleitos O Melas, Kleitos O Leukos, Peukestas, Perdikkas, Meleagros, Polyperchonis, Dionysios, Olympias, Bereniki, Laodiki, Eurydiki, Laniki, Hellas, Theoxena, Fila, Stratoniki, Arsinoe, Kleopatra, Andromache, Boukefalos, Perittas, Poliorketes, Keravnos, Soter, Nikator, Theos, Anikitos, Euergetes, Auletes, Barypous, Eupator, Nikiforou, Kallinikos, Epifanes, Filopator, Filometor, Dikaiou, Gonatas, Doson, Fyskon, Tryfon, Helios, Selene, Basileus, Strategoi, Hegemones, Tetrarchos, Speirarchos, Cheiristes, Grammateis, Archyperetai, Asthetairoi, Hetairoi, Pezhetairoi, Hypaspistes, Argyrasipides, Fylax, Somatofylax, Filoi, Syntrofos, Efodos, Ekkoition, Stegnopoiia, Skenopoiia, Fragmos, Diastasis, Parembole, Stratopedon, Falanx, Magaira, Konos, Knemides, Aspis, Thorax, Hemithorakion, Obola, Drachma,
It is almost certain that even the name MAKEDONIA is of Greek etymology, because the Macedonians are called MAKEDNON by Herodotus, and the same word is used in Homers Odyssey to describe things that are TALL.
First Herodotus:
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".. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, *in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory which it called MAKEDNON;* from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, *where it took the name of Dorian* .."
-Herodotus
[Histories 1.56.3]
«.. ἐπὶ μὲν γὰρ Δευκαλίωνος βασιλέος οἴκεε γῆν τὴν Φθιῶτιν, ἐπὶ δὲ Δώρου τοῦ Ἕλληνος τὴν ὑπὸ τὴν Ὄσσαν τε καὶ τὸν Ὄλυμπον χώρην, καλεομένην δὲ Ἱστιαιῶτιν: ἐκ δὲ τῆς Ἱστιαιώτιδος ὡς ἐξανέστη ὑπὸ Καδμείων, οἴκεε ἐν Πίνδῳ *Μακεδνὸν* καλεόμενον: ἐνθεῦτεν δὲ αὖτις ἐς τὴν Δρυοπίδα μετέβη καὶ ἐκ τῆς Δρυοπίδος οὕτω ἐς Πελοπόννησον ἐλθὸν *Δωρικὸν ἐκλήθη* ..»
-Ἡρόδοτος
[Ἱστορίαι 1.56.3]
NOTE: Notice how he talks about the migrations of these people that came to be known as the Dorians & how they first settled in a Region & called it Macedonia. DORIANS are 100% a Greek people, one of the major tribes of the Ancient Greeks.
And here is Homer using the word to describe something TALL:
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".. and others weave webs, or, as they sit, twirl the yarn, like unto the leaves of a *TALL* poplar tree; and from the closely-woven linen the soft olive oil drips down .."
-Homer
[Odyssey 7.105-106]
«.. αἱ δ᾽ ἱστοὺς ὑφόωσι καὶ ἠλάκατα στρωφῶσιν ἥμεναι, οἷά τε φύλλα *Μακεδνῆς* αἰγείροιο: καιρουσσέων δ᾽ ὀθονέων ἀπολείβεται ὑγρὸν ἔλαιον ..»
-Όμηρος
[Ὀδύσσεια 7.105-106]
*ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΝ = ΜΑΚΕΔΝΗΣ* it is formed by the same root WORD 100% it just has different declensions because one describes an object, and the other is used to describe the Name of a Region. They are documented by our Ancient sources as being referred to a few variations of this word, but for the most part the people would have come to call themselves ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΙ [ΟΙ = plural] and ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΣ [singular] and then through Metathesis it would eventually become ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ. It is important to NOTE that the Macedonian dialect shows DORIC Greek Dialectal forms as opposed to IONIAN ATTIC Greek. One of the primary differences between these two Greek dialects is the Shift between Α & Η (E sound). This is why the root of this word ΜΑΚΟΣ (MAKOS) was pronounced by Athenians as ΜΗΚΟΣ (MEKOS). Today, in modern Greek, the IONIAN ATTIC form survives, the precursor to Koine & the "chosen" of the Macedonians themselves!
About the name & it’s meaning. According to Herodotus, the Original Macedonian Dorians first settled in the Highlands west of the Plateau & they lived next to a group of people who called themselves Orestai and their region Orestes which we know meant something like "Mountain Men", which is why most Linguists believe that MAKEDNOI, who also lived in the Mountainous Territories next to them probably called themselves "Highlanders" or People who lived UP HIGH or TALL AREAS. [They later moved down to the Plains & drove away the Pierians as Herodotus tells us]. The name could also be for their actual Physical Height as well, we are not sure, but the first theory is the most likely.
The etymologies of Filippos & Alexandros are all 100% Greek.
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There are HUNDREDS of names (And words) found all over the ancient Greek world that START or end with the Greek Roots: FILO or HIPPOS as well as ALEX & ANDROS.
Here are a few words that you can recognize that are also used in English which are all of GREEK ULTIMATE ETYMOLOGY
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FILOsofia-------Philosophy
IPPOdromo -----Hippodrome
Androkratia-----Androcracy
FytoALEXine-----Phytoalexin
And here are a just a FEW EXAMPLES of similar names in Ancient Greece & which also exist in Modern Greece:
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Filippos- Friend of Horses
Lysippos- Unleasher of Horses
Anaxippos- Ruler of Horses
Archippos- Lord of Horses
Menippos- Vigor of Horses
Alexippos- Protector of Horses
Aristippos- Best of Horses
Igisippos- Leader of Horses
And also:
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Alexandros-Protector of Man
Lysandros-Unleasher of Man
Menandros-The Vigor of Man
Kassandros-The Shining Man
Euandros-The Good Man
Leandros-The Lion-like Man
Nikandros-The Victory of Man
Filandros-The Friend of Man
Kleandros-The Glory of Man
Amynandros-The Defender of Man
Anaxandros-The Ruler of Man
Archandros-The Lord of Man
Alkandros-The Strength (Prowess) of Man
Aristandros-The Best (Excellence) of Man
Igisandros-The Leader of Man
Timandros-The Honorable Man
Thersandros-The Bold Man
Kratandros-The Strong Man
^^^^There are maybe THOUSANDS of names in Ancient Greece that use these Greek roots. It is TOO MANY to list !!!
✅ The Macedonians were Greek by every Metric! Most importantly, they stated that they were Greeks themselves! 🇬🇷
Obviously it's a greek dialect, like now we have pontic, cretan, and chipriot. The pronounciation made it difficult for the Atheneans to understand the Macedonians. Same thing happens in Greece today. My parents are from Aitoloakarnania, western Greece, and when they speak with their heavυ accent theυ don't pronounce many vowels and talk slightly faster. I can understand them and I know what letters are missing but I don't speak like them, I have modern athenean accent. My friends can't understand them, or when my parents have to speak with a non Aitoloakarnanian (yeah I buthcered that one, I don't know how it's in english), they slighlty change their accent, they will pronounce more vowels, but still there are elements of their original accent. For example they pronounce νι like ñ In spanish. They try to avoid it as well but sometimes they still use it. The main change is the pronounciacion of the vowels. So I suppose same thing happened with macedonian and common hellenistic/koine. Just to give an example, the capital of Aitoloakarnania is Mesolonghi. In Athens we say it Mesologgi (Μεσολόγγι), while my parents pronounce it Mislog (Μισλόγγ). They cut and change vowels.
IF Macedonian was outside the Greek language continuum we would have found evidence for that. Also, love the shirt.
Gae
@@joshuddin897
Little child you mama needs the phone to talk to your father, the milkman.
I'm not certain about that. It's like I was saying in another thread. The biggest problem we have is that the majority of the oldest sources are not linguistic examinations or comparisons of the two languages. They are non-linguistic commentaries being given in biased contexts. So I think we are asking the wrong question. The question: "Is Makedonian a Greeks dialect?"...this a bad question. It limits the entire topic to a simple "yes or no" and it might not be able to be reduced to a simple "yes or no" answer with the sources we have. My personal theory, is that they were sister languages derived from Mycenaean, or a common Balkan influence early in their development. Why? Because we have modern real world examples that might illustrate a similar situation with their relationship. For example...
Italian and Spanish both derived from Latin, they are two separate languages, but Italians and Spaniards can understand each other. We don't say that Spanish has to be a dialect of Italian or vice versa do we? No, they are two separate intelligible languages that derived from a common source or influence. This is a simple explanation that manages to address of lot of the questions with this topic. Why are they similar enough for the Greeks to suggest they are the same languages? They were sister languages from the same origin. Why are they different enough to for the Greeks suggest they different languages? They were sister languages from the same origin. Similar but different. Just like Italian, Spanish, French........
The other thing I keep seeing is that in reality, we might not be able to use the Greek writing as proof of anything. For example, the Romance languages didn't speak Latin but they wrote in Latin for centuries because it was the written lingua franca. How do we know this didn't happen with Makedonian also? It's also possible that Makedonian didn't have an established written language until it encountered Doric and Attic so it just used them instead. This could explain why they knew how to write, but not write well. And the types of oddities we see are consistent with people trying to adapt a new writing system to their language or way of doing things. Why did they write in Greek? Because it was the Greeks who taught them how. I say this because the oldest examples of Makedonian being written in Greek just happens to also be the time that Attic was starting to dominate the Balkans as the written lingua franca. But there's nothing written for Makedonian before that.....I wonder why that is?
@@xunqianbaidu6917 Yes. that's true. And that's what we would expect from dialect evolution. However, we have to first prove that the "Northwest Dialect" classification applies to Makedonian? That's the core of this debate. If we accept that Makedonian IS a dialect then that applies. If we accept that Makedonian IS NOT a dialect, then it doesn't. What I was suggesting is that we need to end the "this or that" nature of this debate. There are other possibilities that are both possible and probable, but the modern world rejects them because we are frozen in a 2400 attempt to explain the Makonian take over of Classical Greece. A fight we Greeks started to justify are being conquered by barbarians and liking the results of it.... ;o)
Bere- vs Phere- compared to English bear/birth suggests outside Greek.
Very informative video on the ancient Macedonian dialect. Regarding the "barbarian" term here's how ancient Greeks used it, or rather some ancient Athenian politicians.
The ancient Greeks - particularly the Athenians, like Demosthenes - often used the word “barbarian” to insult and/or mock other Greeks. In other words, “barbarian” also meant “uncivilised”. Aeschines called Demosthenes a “barbarian”, Demosthenes called Philip, a Macedonian, and Meidias, an Athenian, “barbarians”, etc. Here are a few examples of Greeks insulting other Greeks by calling them “barbarians”:
Aeschines:
“But to be free from accusation, that was a thing which depended upon fortune, and fortune cast my lot with [i.e: referring to Demosthenes, who was an Athenian] a slanderer, a barbarian, who cared not for sacrifices nor libations nor the breaking of bread together.” (Aeschines, “On the Embassy”, 2.183)
Demosthenes:
“And yet, though he has thus become the possessor of privileges to which he has no claim, and has found a fatherland which is reputed to be of all states the most firmly based upon its laws, he seems utterly unable to submit to those laws or abide by them. His [i.e: Meidias, an Athenian] true, native barbarism and hatred of religion drive him on by force and betray the fact that he treats his present rights as if they were not his own-as indeed they are not. ” (Demosthenes, “Against Meidias”, 21.150)
“Is he [i.e: Philip II, a Macedonian] not our enemy? Are not our possessions in his hands? Is he not a barbarian?” (Demosthenes, “Third Olynthiac”, 16)
Atheneaus:
“And when he was asked again, according to the account given by Hegesander, which were the greatest barbarians, the Boeotians [i.e: Greeks] or the Thessalians [Greeks], he said: 'The Eleans' [Greeks].” (Athenaeus, “The Deipnosophists”, 8.42)
Plato:
“Was he not reproaching Pittacus for not knowing how to distinguish words correctly, Lesbian as he was, and nurtured in a barbaric tongue?” [i.e: referring to the Aeolic dialect, one of the major Greek dialects] (Plato, “Protagoras”, 341c)
Aristophanes:
[i.e: Strepsiades, an Athenian], “a man ignorant and barbarian.” (Aristophanes, “Clouds”, 491)
As for Demosthenes,
“The speeches of Demosthenes, that deal with Philip as the enemy, should not be interpreted as an indication of the barbarian origins of Macedonians, but as an expression of conflict between two different political systems: the democratic system of the city-state (e.g.Athens) versus the monarchy (Kingdom of Macedonia).” (Nicholas Hammond, British historian and expert on Macedonia, in an interview with the magazine “Macedonian Echo” in February 1993)
"Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greek all had their origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II. Then as now, political struggle created the prejudice. The orator Aeschines once even found it necessary, in order to counteract the prejudice vigorously fomented by his opponents, to defend Philip on this issue and describe him at a meeting of the Athenian Popular Assembly as being 'entirely Greek'. Demosthenes' allegations were lent an appearance of credibility by the fact, apparent to every observer, that the lifestyle of the Macedonians, being determined by specific geographical and historical conditions, was different from that of a Greek city-state. This alien way of life was, however, common to western Greeks of Epirus, Akarnania and Aitolia, as well as to the Macedonians, and their fundamental Greek nationality was never doubted. Only as a consequence of the political disagreement with Macedonia was the issue raised at all." (Malcolm Errington, “A History of Macedonia", University of California Press, 1993, p.4)
“Macedonian kings were proud of their Greek blood, and it was only jaundiced opponents like Demosthenes the Athenian who ventured to call them 'barbarians.'” (A. R. Burn, "Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic Empire", 1962, Macmillan, p.4)
“By Demosthenes the interval was spent rallying Greek opinion against 'The barbarian', as he unjustly and inaccurately called the Macedonian [Philip]". (“The Oxford Illustrated History of Greece and the Hellenistic World", p. 148)
Note also, that other Athenians, such as Aeschines and Isocrates, proclaimed the Greekness of the Macedonians. As for the Macedonians, we know they were Greeks. They spoke Greek, shared the same religion, cults and customs with the rest of the Greeks, the took part in the Pan-Hellenic sanctuaries and participated in the Olympics where only freeborn Greeks could participate, and, moreover, they identified themselves as Greeks:
“Now that these descendants of Perdiccas [i.e: the Macedonians] are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.” (Herodotus, “Histories”, 5.22)
I feel like it would have been a GREAT addition for Luke to mention these in his Videos.
It’s important to add context!
I knew that Athenian arrogant Demosthenis called macedonian Philip as barbarian
Now I'm happy that i learnt, Aeschines called Demosthenis as barbarian
😎 Cool
Almost ALL Ancient Macedonians (99%) had Greek names...all these names & words are Greek, with many being Uniquely "Macedonian Greek". All their Calendar Months, their Troop Formations, their Oronyms, their Hydronyms, their City Names, their Epithets, their Nicknames, & even their Ethnonym..etc:
👇🏻
Makedonia, Pella, Aegae, Aiani, Amfipolis, Herakleia Lynkestis, Dion, Astraion, Europos, Filippoupoli, Filippoi, Alexandroupoli, Thessaloniki, Alexandreia, Boukefaleia, Eschate, Profthasia, Petra, Xylopolis Archelaos, Karanos, Pausanias, Alexandros, Filippos, Ptolemaios, Seleukos, Antigonos, Antiochos, Demetrios, Kassandros, Lysimachos, Parmenion, Filotas, Krateros, Koinos, Alketas, Argaios, Orestes, Neoptolemos, Arridaios, Archon, Hegelochos, Filoxenos, Menandros, Apollodotos, Leonnatos, Leonidas, Attalos, Amyntas, Hefaistion, Nearchos, Kleitos O Melas, Kleitos O Leukos, Peukestas, Perdikkas, Meleagros, Polyperchonis, Dionysios, Olympias, Bereniki, Laodiki, Eurydiki, Laniki, Hellas, Theoxena, Fila, Stratoniki, Arsinoe, Kleopatra, Andromache, Boukefalos, Perittas, Poliorketes, Keravnos, Soter, Nikator, Theos, Anikitos, Euergetes, Auletes, Barypous, Eupator, Nikiforou, Kallinikos, Epifanes, Filopator, Filometor, Dikaiou, Gonatas, Doson, Fyskon, Tryfon, Helios, Selene, Basileus, Strategoi, Hegemones, Tetrarchos, Speirarchos, Cheiristes, Grammateis, Archyperetai, Asthetairoi, Hetairoi, Pezhetairoi, Hypaspistes, Argyrasipides, Fylax, Somatofylax, Filoi, Syntrofos, Efodos, Ekkoition, Stegnopoiia, Skenopoiia, Fragmos, Diastasis, Parembole, Stratopedon, Falanx, Magaira, Konos, Knemides, Aspis, Thorax, Hemithorakion, Obola, Drachma
Most importantly, THEY THEMSELVES SELF IDENTIFIED AS GREEKS, & were PROUD OF IT !!!!
Another excellent and informative video Luke, well done! I am Greek from Macedonia region and every time I hear the question whether "Alexander the Great (and ancient Macedonia in general) was Greek or Macedonian?" it reminds me of the question "Is Earth rounded or flat?"!!!
I don't need to mention the etymological meaning of names, the participation in Olympic games, the fact that Olympus mountain (the worship mountain of ancient Greek world) is located in Macedonia region, Aristotle's birthplace, the texts etc etc., just a simple visit to Vergina, Pella and Aegae tombs where you can read the texts on the tombs and the symbols you get a clear answer....
Absolutely! I suppose my question in this video is more about the spoken language of the Macedonians and how it fits into the Classical Greek dialects. We don’t have very much evidence to go on, but the Pella tablet is enough to convince me it’s West Greek.
@@polyMATHY_Luke well, certainly there were different dialects from region to region but the root was the same...some Doric Greek dialect which I am not expert to distinguish. The point is that it's a question of dialect difference and not language or ethnic background. You know very well that in Italy even nowadays there are hundreds of different dialects but the Italian language is the root.
You got right that it was a variation of Doric Greek
just here waiting for the comments
Lol I can’t wait. For those in the know, this is probably the most clickbaity I’ve been in years.
Same!
@@polyMATHY_Lukereading some comments you should have made a video about the language of North Macedonia today, since astonishingly some of its residents don't believe it's part of the Slavic languages and what is the timeline of the Slavic languages in the Balkans 😂 Equally funny and very worrying
If we take the example of the romance languages, it is pretty obvious that there is continuum from the south of Spain to the North of France, even though in this case, the intermediary step, the Occitan language is no longer as widely spoken as it used to be. The same for Italian and French. I was very surprised to hear people in Milan say "cinq" instead of "cinque" to say five, even though they pronounce it as the word "sink" in English. Travelling was complicated, and the original Latin that split into different dialects eventually became quite difficult to understand when put at different places in this continuum. So it could make sense that the Macedonians spoke some variety of Greek that had become pretty difficult to understand, especially at a time when literacy was quite low. Furthermore, the Macedonians were in contact with other languages that might have influenced their own language. There is quite a literature about the influence of the Thracians on the Greek religion for instance.
There are some _idiots_ who say that Québécois is not French, for some weird reasons. I met someone from Toronto who spent many hours explaining to me that protecting French in Québec was ridiculous because it was not proper French. I even met French people saying the same kind of non sense. So no I'm not surprise that Greek authors would distance themselves from such a dangerous neighbor with this kind of rhetoric. It took me less that a week to be fully acquainted with Québécois.
Ironically, said idiot actually gave an even better argument for protecting the language. I mean if it is not French and as such a language unique to Canada, that means that if it dies in Canada it would be extinct, at least now it has France, neighbours and colonies to fall back on. I am not a native French speaker but it also took me a week or at most two to get used to it, and after a month I completely took over the accent (which took me a year to lose once I was in Belgium again)
@@hetwitblad6544 If your mother tongue is Flemish then it is an even better example than French, since there are so many different dialects, throughout Belgium and the Nederland, which are united by a common written language. When I was studying linguistics in Montréal, there was a professor from Belgium who explained to us how the written form of Dutch was organized. We are very far from the centralized way standard French is imposed on all French speaking countries.
It took me more than 10 years to get rid of my last québécismes... I stayed six years in Montréal... Ceci explique surement cela...
@@lesfreresdelaquote1176 Yes, I wonder if my origins in a highly dialectically diverse region (which on top of that, has been incredibly well documented), has something to do with my interest in linguistic variety and obscure languages and dialects.
@@hetwitblad6544 😂
Luke, Brother…I understand the thumbnail photo of a video is important, but for these important matters…I believe it could have been avoided as to not fuel tensions & feed the growing Propaganda Machine of some certain Slavic Speakers.
Τη γλώττα μου έδωκεν ελληνική 😮
The introduction to Ancient Greek dialects and this video both give me the faint hope that with each video, I’ll have a slightly less confusing understanding of the chaotic maze that Ancient Greek dialects are haha. Thanks for covering the subject.
Kind of off topic, but I really liked Oliver Stone’s approach to the accents in the Alexander film: the “Greek Greeks” all had RP British accents, whilst Macedonians had Irish, Welsh and Scottish ones. It cleverly explains to the audience the cultural and dialectal dynamic between the “Greek Greeks” and the Macedonians, by using the Scots/Irish/Welsh vs English relationship as an analogy.
It’s also an exceedingly clever usage of “show don’t tell: the script doesn’t need dialogue where we’re told which characters are Macedonian or not, the audience will know based on the accent.
(Actually the main reason was that Colin Farrell apparently had a hard time acting without his accent, but Stone still devised a cool creative trick around that). Alot of people give Farrel a hard time for his Irish Alexander, but miss the overall clever usage of accents in the film.
Thanks so much, my friend. Good for Stone for making such great use of that particular necessity!
I wouldn't say this distinction in dialects between the ''Greek Greeks'' and Macedonians to differantiate them was a good approach. Besides, the Thessalians with their original Aeolian accents were infamous for being the hardest to understand for the rest of the Greek tribes. (The Thessalian Cavalry comprised a big part of Alexander the Great's army)
The doric was similar to attic
Slightly differences
@@greektraditionalmusicchann5644 Yeah but you gotta look at it in the context of a film. Stone wasn't doing a documentary, he was tackling a dramatic story, and in the context of the screenplay he wrote, the cultural tension between the Macedonians and the southern Greeks is what happens in the story. The Thessalians don't play any part in the screenplay so giving them an accent or not is entirely irrelevant.
@@faryafaraji You are right. It is after all a Hollywood movie. All I'm saying is that Greek tribes like the Thessalians and Epirotes would have been as weird to the people we today consider ''Greek Greeks'' (mainly the south Dorians, the Ionians and their colonies) as the Macedonians.
It’s a pleasure to listen to you !
Right!Ancient Macedonians were speaking the ancient Greek language! Nevertheless Macedonian dialect as you say it was protoGreek language ,it wasn't Slavic!!! Slavs came at these areas at 6 century after Christ! Also, the name of this chanel "Polymathy" is Greek "πολυμάθεια" and it means "learning a lot"❤
Don't even ask. The answer is Yes.
I was praying that you'd put in that clip from John Adams when you mentioned it. Thank you for answering it!
Hehe I’m glad you liked that. It was the first thing I thought of when I began researching
Wonderfully informative video, thank you for posting. 😊
Thanks for watching!
misleading is the word my friend
Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head with your explanation. IIRC, Demosthones was not shy of calling anyone a barbarian he didn't like and even called another orator a barbarian (forgot his name). They probably brought Great Attic with them, because it was already well-developed for imperial use and recognized over a wide area. Granted, I don't know; we don't have the texts.
To all the people commenting that the concept of Greece is a modern one I want to know what you're smoking
@@supermavro6072 dude you think ancient Greeks were black🤣🤣
@@supermavro6072
And later on the Balkans became even more diverse when our turkalbanian ancestors came here from central Asia in the 15th century
@@supermavro6072 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Also Luke, I think it would have been really nice if you were to add some context about the word Barbarian & the amount of times it was used by certain Greeks against OTHER GREEKS as well, not just the Macedonian Greeks.
The CONTEXT is important when describing a time period, and I believe that leaving this out of your video doesn’t paint the entire picture correctly. Unless you mentioned that & I didn’t notice it somewhere in your video.
Regardless, great information in this video again from you! 👍🏻
Ancient Macedonians were speaking an archaic form of western Greek / Doric language, that was part of the wider Greek language tree (Thessalian influence was also a fact as you mentioned, due to proximity), that lasted about until c. 350 BC, when the ascend of Philip II and Alexander afterwards. In the years that follow, the incorporation of new tribes, kingdoms and ethne inside the greater Macedonian kingdom / empire, made Hellenistic koine the main language, with many similarities from Attic / Ionic dialect. In addition, before the establishment of the Hellenistic koine and the expansion of the kingdom, the change from a more archaic form of Greek, to the Attic dialect was taking place. That was accomplished by bringing scholars from Athens to teach and enlighten the Royal Pages and other prominent Macedonian members of aristocratic families, at the era of Philip II. - Grigorios Charalampidis, PhD candidate of Ancient History, D.U.Th., Greece.
Well, let me clear things up for you my friend...
Greek dialects and the pronounciation of the everyday spoken language from region to region, differs so much, even to this day, that making fun of ones pronounciation due to their region of origin is something we do since the dawn of History. And it is a practice very dominant in the Attica region.
We Greeks have a particular sense of humor. And if you want to use modern terminology, we are totally "Politically Incorrect".
For example: We call each other "Malaka", which means "Masturbator" in all informal conversations. 😜
If you are an overwheight friend, we''ll address you as "Re malaka chondrE!" (Hey, fat masturbator!). Psychologically, it's the healthiest thing you can do, even if it seams like the exact opposite.
In your case we would say: "Re malaka karaflE!" (Hey, bald masturbator!").... 😉
In an argument or a fight though, the tone changes completely and the exact same words take up their full disrespectful meaning...
Keeping that in mind, and to get back to our main subject, imagine if there are official political disputes between whole regions, like an old-school Greek Kingdom in the North and the Progressive Democracy of Athens...
To give you another contemporary example: Cypriots are and speak Greek. But unless they adjust their pronounciation for us, we have absolutely no idea what the hell they are on about 😆
Hope this puts things into perspective for you.
Reading through the Pella curse tablet I found a lot of similar words that my late grandmother who didn't have any schooling, she could neither read nor write from Paphos- Cyprus was using. Me growing up in Nicosia attending Greek primary school, often would ask my late father to translate, for most of the time I couldn't understand what she was talking about.
For me, this is a classic case of BAR BAR in accordance with the ancient Greek meaning of the word even though she spoke Greek. A Greek- Cypriot dialect but a Greek language nevertheless.
Having my ears tunned to this dialect I found it easier to understand the Grigio dialect in south Italy, where I spent 3 weeks in the summer of 1977.
It is also true that an Athenian can hardly understand a Greek Cypriot-speaking Greek with a heavy Cypriot accent. Also not many Greeks can understand the Tsakonian dialect and we all know, the Tsakonian dialect is Doric Greek as is the Cypriot dialect which has been developed from Arcadian Doric with a heavy dose of Ionic/ Attic Greek. Even though the Greek-Cypriot dialect was also heavily influenced by Medieval/ Byzantine Greek which in turn was a development of Koine Greek it retained many of its Doric origin.
Another interesting hint about the Macedonian Greek dialect is that it had many person&place names shared with other Greek cities, but also a few unique ones or even changed pronunciations. For example the main river running through Macedonia is called Axios, because at the delta it runs through a forest, and the word for forest in Macedonian was Axos (most likely cognate with Attic Dasos). Also, the name Philip was changed from Philippos to Bilippos, because Macedonians chanegd the ph and th to b and d.
Fun fact the first macedonian capital aigai was also the name of a greek city in aeolis
Thanks, Luke, for another excellent video.
Thank you for the video brother
@2:00 The auto-generate English subtitle said that Luke said "Barbeque" instead of "Varvaroi" (βάρβαροι - as in Barbarian)
lol xD
Macedonia is Greece 🇬🇷 😍 💙 ☦
Never was. Never will be. Even less for the present day "greek state".
Macedonia is older than Greece!
@@d3r4g45
It's been part of it for more than 100 years now 😂
@@yazdani3289
My fyrBulgarian 🇲🇰 ears are burnt and our slavobulgarian 🇲🇰 tongue says solun.
But Alexander's sister was Thessalonike 🇬🇷 not solun
Why Turkobulgarians 🇲🇰 call her solun?
On contrary, Greece IS Macedonia
Muy buen vídeo, gracias señor Ranieri. Muy clarificadora la comparación francés/italiano-español con macedonio/distintos dialectos del griego antiguo. Es bonito que un nativo en inglés haya entendido (y quizá experimentado) la magia que sienten nativos en español e italiano pudiendo comunicarse con soltura en sus idiomas maternos sin haber estudiado en absoluto el idioma del otro. El inglés no tiene un hermano tan cercano... algunos hablan del frisio.
its said that the Makedonian rulers were ancestors of Heracles, much like in Lakonia (region of Sparta), and probably Makedonians had Doric dialect (spartan)
As a Philadelphian originally from right in between Vergina and Pella near the foothills of Vermion where Aristotle had his school for Alexander and his friends, this one hit close to home in more ways than one.
One minor thing I may have mentioned was that the origin story of the Macedonian kingdom has its roots in the Argead empire from Argos in the Peloponnese.
You misspelled Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Vermont, all in one sentence, brother. Don't worry, I got you.
@@XenoFonia Funny 🙃
@@XenoFonia
Are you a Xenos with Xenia? Or just a Xenos that wants to learn other Fonia? 😀
Zeus wants to know.. ⚡️
@@SpartanLeonidas1821 the name's a play on Xenophon, xenophone, and xenophobia. My real name is nothing like this.
@@XenoFonia Hahaha! I figured it wasn’t, it was a joke 😃
It's probable that they spoke a very conservative Northwestern Greek dialect that were more isolated in comparison to Doric, which had interacted with Eastern Greek varieties.
This sort of convergence can be seen with Cappadocian Greek with Turkish or Modern Doric (Tsakonian) with the Koine Greek varieties.
Herodotus, who lived for several years in Macedonia, refers to them as Dorian Hellenes
This is enough to not include the thousands of plates from archaeology
fascinating! Thanks!
I loved the explanation considering what happens to french language. I study ancient greek, latim, I speak english, spanish & french; I've lived in Portugal for a couple of years and, sometimes, I can't fully understand what portuguese people say. I play music, bands like Deolinda at the beach, and not even a single fellow of mine can get a single word---they are not very used to linguistics. For 99% brazilianz it is way more weird to decipher portuguese from Portugal than to effortlessly understand spanish from Andaluzia. If the castellan comes from Argentina, Mexico, or almost anywhere from Latin America (besides Chile), people simply understand it. Even spanish from Spain. But not portuguese from Portugal. People here had better understand italian than portuguese from Portugal. And Napolitan sounds just like Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo accent. They make slangs the same way, cutting the end of the words. That's fascinanting, isn't it? So I have a big bet to make on your french theory...
Thanks for the analysis of European Portuguese etc.
Please, could you have a look on Cat3 and tell us how you understand Catalán? Better or worse than Portuguese? Thanks ❤️
@@Rasarel yes, of course. I don't know that channel, though. Could you please post the link here?
@@thiagocth23
TV3, TV3 CAT.
Thanks 👍
Or just anything in Catalan language.
U are absolutely right about Demosthenes, like he was trying in every possible way to persuade his compatriots to not join forces with Macedon...So what he did was actually a form of propaganda..But it is wrong imo to take into account only his or his supporters opinions...There were also those who wanted Philip to lead the Panhellenic war against the Persians like Isocrates, so we need these opinions to be mentioned as well...Very good video, Macedonians were indeed speaking a form of Doric Greek, combined with elements from Illyrians and Thracians too, so probably that played an important role as well to why their language was unintelligible to Southern Greeks...
As a Native Hellenas.....i have to specify something.
Calling in Hellenic someone as Barbaric.......up until this day......after 2500years.....
is still a way of mocking someone as inferior to you although he is better.....
in general we still use it as a way to insult someone we dont personally like.
So according to this above which by the way is self confirmed ......
Demosthenes (around 350BCE) was mocking Macedonians as inferiors when it was the other way around (reason was the Peloponnesian wars between Athens n Sparta which took a toll on both Cities the following years allowing Macedonia to surpass both of them).
The Macedonians were Hellenes to the bone.
They were in Fact refugees from Argos originally in the 9th n 8th BCE.....hence Phillips ancestors bloodline was called Argeads or Temenids and their Hellenic Tribe identity was Dorian (one of the 4 Major Hellenic Tribes together wtih Ionians (for Example Athenians) - Aeolians (for Example Boeotia) and Achaeans (for Example Patras)
Nothing can change that the Macedonians were in Fact Hellenic and no Slavomonkeydonia which came 1000years after Argeads Dynasty downfall.
Its like saying that Moses was not Israelite/Hebrew cause he was born in Egypt hence he is Egyptian.....
Whoever things that is TRUE......then he must be a Big MALAKAS!
Αncient Macedonian is 1000% Greek dialect,the Doric one.
Take a look at the names of the months.
As for Alexander,he was mostly speaking an attic dialect.
Philotas prefered to speak an attic dialect at his trial.
Apart from the Pella tablet we have tons of names of commoners that survived and they are also in their vast majority Greek. I think that just as in ancient times, the question of Greekness of Ancient Macedonian is raised in modern times due to politics that often get involved into linguistics: namely when in the late 19th and early 20th century the control georgaphical region of Macedonia was in question, theories were forged to support the claims of the contestants and their respective supporters.
Had there been no politics involved, I do not think we d even be discussing the matter at all
I should also mention that it is fairly easy for a dialect to be eliminated by another dialect that is more prestigious. It is less so with languages: look at how Irish, Aromanian or Basque have persisted for millenia, or even extinct languages like Galatian in Anatolia which survived for 1000 years. Had Ancient Macedonian been a language, it is hard to believe it would disappear in just a few generations' time
As a native Greek speaker i can understand perfectly the curse Tablet from pela even though my Ancient Greek aren’t that good so that’s solves it for me
It shouldn’t. An Italian could understand a Spanish or Latin curse tablet just like it; they’re different languages. The analysis must be much finer.
@@polyMATHY_LukeThey aren't different languages.
Only channel that i can watch on yt..
Thank you for your videos.
Very kind
Great video!
Would it be possible that there was a widespread bilingualism in Macedonia back then?
You mention Illyrians at the end of the video. So there was perhaps a bilingualism of Illyrian (or whatever non-Greek language there was) and Greek?
I'm reminded of the situation in Eastern Java for example. Let's take Surabaya, the largest city there, where Malay based Indonesian has become the dominant language, but where even today, most of the people who grew up in Surabaya can speak Javanese to some extent.
As for why the non-Greek language was not written, is it possible that it was considered to be a purely oral language even in the mind of its speakers?
Just a few days ago I was chatting with a Brazilian who speaks a German dialect in his family. When I asked him to give I an example to see how much I'd understand, his response was "We don't write our language. We only speak it."
Going back to the people in Surabaya and the Brazilian, there's a high chance of them tending to write a love poem in Indonesian or Portuguese respectively, even though Javanese or German are a language that are very close to their heart.
Illyrians? The so-called proper Illyrians (Illiri Propriae Dicti) were living between modern nothern Albania, Kosovo Montenegro and modern lake Ochrida. There is no evidence for them living in the Macedonian cradle which was the Lower Macedonia (Pieria, Imathia etc). If someone wants to link Macedonians with any non-Greek community it would be more reasonable to assume Phrygian or Thracian connections, but not Illyrian.
Aetolians,Acarnanians and Macedonians spoke hillbilly Greek that seemed to civilized and refined Athenians like barbaric.Also nowadays we habitants of Athens visit a place in countryside where they speak Greek in local dialect,e.g. Crete or in Thessaly can hardly understand them and call their way of speaking as hillbilly.
Είμαι Ελληνίδα Μακεδονίσσα μιλάω την ελληνική γλώσσα
That very last bit about the conquered Illyrians really caught my interest and I would love to hear more about that, the extent to which the conquered Illyrian population was integrated into the rest of the Macedonian population, how much diffusion there was between them culturally and linguistically, how much of the population they represented, and whether there is any written evidence beyond just the indirect context clues that some Greeks may have been describing Macedonian-ruled Illyrians when they called them Barbaroi.
you don't rule out that the Illyrians were a related race to the other Greeks, they just don't have any surviving Illyrian writings.
I am somewhat surprised that you didn't mention Alexander I Philhellene (the 3rd great grandfather of Alexander the Great) who proved his Greek-ness in a court so that he could participate in the Olympic Games.
those anecdotes probably do not count as certain history. That's why he remained in archaeological facts.
@@Basil-HD I think they are more than "anecdotes" since several ancient historians mention the event. Also, the circumstantial evidence is fairly strong in so far as before Alexander I, Macedonians did not participate in the Olympic Games, but they most certainly did after.
@@gavinrogers5246Does that comes from confirmed documentation or from hallucinating evidence!
@@AKRITAS365 off the top of my head, the event was recorded by both Herodotos and Justin, and we know when Macedonian athletes start appearing in the epigraphic and archaeological evidence at Olympos (see Adams, "Other People's Games: The Olympics, Macedonia and Greek Athletics").
The fact that he had to prove it in court, tells all you need to know. :D
Excellent analysis!
Thank you for a balanced, scholarly, researched and sensible review of the topic presented in your normal elegant, erudite and inimitable style!! Wicked ‘tache too Λουκά!
Brilliant analysis, Luke! Aside from what was already mentioned about the political accusations of being βάρβαροι, their dialect actually might sound more like bar-bar than we think.
In the known lexicon of Macedonian words, most unvoiced consonants become voiced, like Φ to Β thus making it sound more literally like "barbarbar". We see this with the Bryges, whom the Macedonians said changes their name to Phryges when entering Asia Minor. These would seem to me that the changing of unvoiced to voiced may have been a sort of sprachbund in the southern Balkan region, especially if we consider Phrygian/Brygian to be a close relative of Greek. Eitherway, when a culture lives on the fringe, there is always a mixing and melding of the neighboring culture, especially before the creation of the modern nation state.
Balkan means nothing to the greeks
HELLENIC KINGDOMS
-Macedon
-Epirus
-Thessaly
-Greece(Greek city states)
Chinese Kingdoms
-Song
-Ming
-Tang
Etc
Sinitic and Hellenic are both ethno-linguistic groups
-Macedon = thraco illyrians
-Epirus = Arvanite/Alabanians
-Tessaly = Turko slavic illyrians
-Greece = North Africa
@@supermavro6072 ALBANIA=the rest of africa 😂
@@papazataklaattiranimam you said it yourself ETHNO 😉
@@wankawanka3053you are correct, Albanians were majority DNA Ev13 Wich is Mediterranean peoples Pelasgians Wich is originated in North Africa. The ancient maccedonians were Indo European peoples(the original Hellens) it's already proven that they carry DNA r1a paternal
People always confuse ethnicity, standard language, dialects, genetics, nationality, culture etc etc. Also the concepts like "standard national language" and nationality are modern concepts, such things didn't exist in ancient times. Did the Romans speak French? Were the Romans French? Who are the French? What about the Celtic people? What about the Franks and Normans in France? You see it can get complicated very quickly. Modern nationalism emerged as an alternative to monarchy and Empires but as it can be seen in these comments in here it leads to unscientific irrational ethno-centric identifications which is a polite way of saying racism.
great analogy between french and spanish. It is becoming clear nowadays that Illyrian was also a Hellenic dialect similiar to doric just like french and italian.
I love your videos always fresh
Thats a good video but I am a bit disappointed that you haven't mention the Macedonian glosses given by Hesychius of Aleksandria, which are crucial for the case. Left alone the toponymy and eponymy (also it is crucial to mention that the cradle of Macedon was montaneous Pieria, all the other lands like Imathia, Bottaia etc were conquered and colonized by original Macedonians but still remained with different non-Macedonian indigenous populations like Thracian or even some remnants of Phrygians in Edessa...
Similarly, so called upper Macedonia (Orestis etc) also shouldnt be taken into consideration, since it was originally an Epirote region belonging to the koine of Molossians!).
The glosses of Hesychius of Aleksandria became controversial because of regular occurence of δ instead of θ, γ nstead of χ and β instead of φ - (αιθηρ - αδη, θανων - δανων, κεφαλη - κεβλη, φρυες - αβρουτες) which seemed to make Macedonian much more closer to Phrygian rather than Greek.
But this controversy seemed to be possibly solved by Hatzopoulos, supported for example by Mendez Dosuna, who concluded after a meticulous research of regional Greek epigraphies that similar voicing was occuring also with usual, non-aspirated consonants (for example Αρτεμις Διγαια instead of - Αρτεμις Δικαια in one of the inscriptions) and found even a lot of peculiar spelling mistakes with that kind of voicing (for example υβό instead of υπό). It would suggest therefore that in Macedonian the PIE aspirated voiced stops didnt follow the same fate as in Phrygian but rather this anomaly was caused by regional voicing or even early spirantization.
The same kind of voicing occured also in Thessalian Perraiotia. They are also some other features which may link Macedonian dialect to Aeolic group
I dont know what to think about that and so I would like you to refer to it..
loved the video and love the mustache!
Thanks!
Given that the Spartans allegedly came south, I would assume that the Macedonians language at least in the proto sense would be similar. of course, languages are more like a soup in that everything basically blends together. Even if two soups start out with the same base they can end up tasting fairly different depending on what other ingredients you put in. French is Latin with some Frankish German and Norse (Normans) mixed in. Italian is Latin with Greek, Gothic and some other German mixed in. Two different soups. Macedonian had different influences that Attic or Doric
Our neighbor in Illinois brought over her dad from rural Cyprus. My wife is Byzantine girl from islands near Istanbul. Knows church Greek a lot more than many Gteeks from Greece, plus modern Greek. They could barely understand ech other unless he slowed down and explained many words. I recall pne funny one was the word for wedding dress was the word for hauze curtains in the other dialect. Love you videos Luke.
Note mislaid eyeglasses, expect typos.
Funny fact about how foreigners viewed Macedonians.
The Persians had three names to categorize Greeks.
1) Greeks of Asia Minor were known as Ionians.
2) The Greeks from Greek peninsula as "Ionians across the sea"
3) Macedonians as "Ionians with hats"
😂 yes, from a Persian view the only difference between Macedonians and the other Greeks was the fact that were wearing hats (they actually did!) 😂
🤠
Ionians with hats were the Thessalians not the Macedonians. You live a lie. Arrian’s Anabasis of Alexander book 2 par 10: Moreover the feeling of rivalry which existed between the Grecian and Macedonian races inspired each side in the conflict.
@@timothyseth6563 Ionians with hats were explicitly the Macedonians, refusing to acknowledge such basic fact says a lot about what you wanna project to history.
All Persian, Indian and Jewish sources call the Macedonians as Ionians (Yevani, Yunans, Yunani etc) the name of Greeks in the East. As it also today. All sources.
While we have thousands (literally) papyri from Egypt during the time of Ptolemaic rule in which letters of individuals are survived. All Macedonian settlers called themselves Hellenes (Greeks) in these letters. I dare you to to read these papyri online (search: "Identity and ethnic friction in Greek papyrus letters from Egypt") Lol
Real letters from real ancient Macedonians. And then please come back and tell me that the ancient Macedonians were fools and did not know what they were and you, a modern slav should correct them because you feel so small and petty without larping Greek history. Regards
Best facial hair in the game. Great video as always, Luke.
I hope that a video on the Doric Dialects of Ancient Greek (hopefully with many examples of the Spartan dialect Lakonian) may be soon on the horizon, however I do not want to make this sound as a reinforcing "do this video now!!" - type of comment, best regards to all!!