I am a Tesla owner and investor. I think it is great that Tesla is pushing the boundaries of what can be done with cameras alone, but I think it should develop these features in shadow mode using existing sensors until the new systems are optimised and ready for wide release.
Amen! The time to delete the ultrasonic sensors from the car would be *AFTER* the vision-only system works at least as well as those sensors did, not year(s?) *before* .
I believe need to reduce redundant information to not cause added info overload to the computer. Better for car to the decision based on one system rather than being second guessed and causing phantom braking and other systemic errors
@@alaface Well, that's a plausible-sounding guess. My plausible-sounding counter-guess is that the frame rate during an 0.5MPH parking maneuver can be dropped *at least* in half (more like by an order of magnitude) vs. highway speeds, so the computer ought to have cycles to spare even if it's taking in extra information when deciding whether the car is getting too close to the lawnmower. Furthermore, it doesn't have to be the customers who guinea-pig the new vision-based parking suite, but selected volunteers or (gasp!) Tesla employees. So I stand by my outrage.
I am a new Tesla model Y owner. Picked mine up on March 1st. Honestly, I didn’t do all that much research on the sensor stuff. I read somewhere that sensors were being replaced by Vision, and it made it sound like it would be the same or better so I didn’t think much of it. However, once I actually picked up the Tesla and realized it had Zero park assist I was filled with regret. I couldn’t believe it. And then this week I get the vision only update and it’s so horrible that I wish I could turn it off. It’s so inaccurate most of the time that there is no point in keeping it on. Sure, it’s “cool” that it can TRY to do that with vision only, however, it’s not practical and unreliable. All my other (much older and cheaper) cars have sensors and have WAY better park assist features, and real measurable accuracy. I’m not going to be one of those guys that says “but it will get better with updates!”. We don’t know that for sure. And honestly, I don’t trust teslas decision making at this point. I will likely end up selling this one and getting the new Volvo EX90.
Tesla forces you to acknowledge that they took away the USS sensors before you complete delivery. Too bad they didn't have ANY solution for 6 months. We are just guinea pigs for another big corp. By 2024, the market will be flooded with great EVs with unique features, not barren and basic like these Teslas. They will have fully tested hardware for driver assist, too, because they've developed them over a decade(s) now, not like Tesla removing radar and USS and having nothing for years (radar). If Tesla removed hardware, why didn't they give us a discount???
I felt the same way. It is a 100% bad move for Tesla. I even canceled the installation on the war charger for my model Y. Just use the mobile charger for now. Maybe another EV will come out better than Tesla one day.
Exactly this, I'm rethinking my interest in buying a Model Y. It's great that the software gets constantly updated, but I want a working car that competes with competition, not a "it will always get better with time, pinky promise!" car, not when you pay a premium. How about for this price it's "already very good and just gets even better than competition" car? Because at the moment, for this price it's neither good nor competing well.
I would hate for you to leave the Tesla family, but I truly understand your wanting the sensors! They are truly the best warning feature any car can have, especially when it comes to blind spots! All the best to you!
My 2019 Model 3 dual motor had all the sensors, park assist, enhanced auto pilot, etc. I now have a 2022 Model Y and don’t like the vision only sensors!!!
Just got my model Y about 10 days ago and this feature is very disappointing. I don’t have much faith that they will be able to make this as good as the old system. Other than that I love the car but this is a big issue.
I miss my radar and sonar sensors so much. Yesterday, when backing out of my work garage, I totally would have hit the pillar to the left of me with my left side mirror if I wasn’t backing out old school - with my own eyes and the over the shoulder guidance. My car gave me no warning at all.
Worst decision Tesla could have made was to remove the sensors! And it will make a difference whether I buy another Tesla in the near future. Thanks for your video!
Agree. Indefensible no matter how good the software is. Radar was the other worst decision. I don't trust Tesla's in the road without radar because software can't fix cameras inability to see past the car ahead.
I love Telsa, but they have made a HUGE mistake in removing ultrasonic sensors! One of the main reasons I didn't upgrade my 2021 to a new 2023 model Y is I didn't want to lose my sensors. Vision is never going to be as good or as accurate as ultrasonic due to real world environmental conditions. Cameras must have ability to see for vision to effectively work. When it's snowing, raining or mud / water gets on the camera lens, the vision system becomes impaired and not reliable or accurate. Also, one of the reasons I believe FSD is struggling is not the software, rather the full reliance of cameras having clear vision. It's simply not realistic in the real world that cameras will be always clean and clear. They need to bring back radar and ultrasonic sensors to truly enable redundant, safe, reliable and effective FSD in the real world.
I love when people make a comment like this and then an update comes out. And V1 of Tesla vision is pretty slick. Can display WAY more data than USS. Including posts etc. ultimately it’s better than the ultrasonic sensors, with the exception of displaying distance, which will probably come. I’ve nearly hit a pole with my USS setup.
@@jamesclerkmaxwell8020 so are you saying that USS not seeing a single post/bollard is better data? (A problem that all cars with USS can experience FWIW).
Yeah, this is something I've always thought about, even if you did the whole Elon Musk thing of magically matching the performance of the literal human mind... a human mind and eyes are actually still much worse at judging difficult distances than an ultrasonic sensor!
Am an investor, but I am not in favour of removing the sensors. Have trouble with Tesla vision sometimes during winter, so I know it is not perfect in all conditions. Better to have more safety. Prefer to have option to pay at the very least!
I complained to the center European Area Sales Manager, Maxence BLANC about the missing park assist. Thai was back in February. He called me up and he told me that park assist is not a safety feature and I should not worry because an update is coming soon. I am really really regret to the fact that I told my dad to get the new Model Y. This car and all the carts without USS, will never operate as good as the cars are having USS. If there is a class action I am all in!!!
As crazy as this sounds, I think it has cost them sales. I was going to buy a 2023 Model 3 after the price cuts, but after some research and seeing all the features they have removed on the newer models I decided a used 2021 was actually a better car. I love a lot of things about what Tesla is trying to achieve but at the end of the day, it is still a car that people use everyday and it needs to be reliable.
As long as they don't disable USS support in the software, even if you have the hardware, like they did with radar. Although, I would suspect this won't happen because I think the real reason for dropping radar support is because they couldn't get it to work reliably in combination with the cameras. Their so called "neural net" software was getting too confused.
@@vasil7410 that's strange since other car makers were able to use them effectively. Seems like they were under pressure to deliver rather then optimize their net
I also did my research before buying and decided against Tesla based on this missing feature, because I would really miss parking sensors if they weren’t there, and it seems a little dodgy to still sell you options under enhanced autopilot which currently don’t work on any of the new vehicles, I believe, like summon
With the current Camera placement there is some serious shortcomings on vision only. Notice while they have enabled park assist they are still not allowing summon and smart summon. This is because with the current camera locations they can’t see what is required to be seen for it to work. Then we also have situations where an object smaller than front bumper can’t be seen at all with front cameras. Your idea of a bumper camera has the flaw it would almost always be obstructed with debris from insects/road grim.
For those that don't mind vision only sensors...old saying goes and still applies: "You don't know what you're missing until you no longer have it or lost it"
I CANNOT agree more about the wipers. I have a 2022 Model 3 Performance and I love the car. HOWEVER, I hate hate hate my wipers. Doesn’t come on while pouring the rain, DOES come on on a bright sunny day without a cloud in the sky though. Windshield perfectly clean, not a raindrop in hundreds of miles and my wipers are just going to town. Hate it. Oh and I also still have the sensors. LOVE THEM. Eff the vision crap.
I'm seeing you're reporting honestly about all the mistakes tesla is making (at our expense) and I appreciate it. Glad you've renamed the channel from Like Tesla as these things simply make me not like mine at times. It's a great car but the amount of flaws and seemingly idiotic (greedy?) decisions is astounding. Wipers too as you've said. They're an utter disaster. Keep up honest reporting. Felt good to hear you voice my frustration...
I have a 2023 MY and I am honestly very frustrated with it. I feel cheated, I just got FSD 11.3.5 last night and drove it today and had multiple disengages due to safety. As I watch all the amazing TH-cam videos of others doing almost flawless drives I just knew that this would not be the case for all of the people who got stuck with the stripped down Tesla's. I, like a dummy (mainly because it is my first Tesla and didn't know any better) I paid 15K for FSD. Tesla should have kept their car's with USS and radar until they knew that vision works just as good as the older models. I had a 2021 loaner from Tesla (was getting a paint chip fixed from our January pickup day) for a week and it preformed much better than my 2023. Maybe one day (soon I hope) vision will outshine sensor's but until then we're stuck with inferior car's.
Got 6 inches of snow last night, and took the 23 Model Y out for a drive today. All kinds of mistakes and dings when driving on the roads today. Vision tracking feels like a big fail in any kind of inclement weather. Lots of work, and TBH- I’d rather have reliable sensors vs alpha vision.
You're just a Tesla hater! Elon promised coast to coast level 5 autonomy by 2017 and I still believe my hero!! :-D Imagine the mess of just a few teslas, let alone thousands, doing Robotaxi drives in those conditions and deciding they can't see and just stop where they are. No-one to look out an open window to make sure, find a safe parking spot, clean the camaras, just force majeur and too bad for everyone on the roads.
Auto wipers are absolute the worse. The vision park doesn’t work because you can’t see the hood of the MY to “eye ball” it. However, over time I’ll probably be able to predict where I need to be.
We all use our own eyes all of the time but mine do not have the benefit of an accurate built in measure and nor do they work as well in the dark or in bad weather. All of these systems are primarily there to back up a human, not to replace one but they often catch things that we do not, that is the real value of them.
It really should have both....they are aiming for FSD and for those situations (just like planes) they need redundant systems, not only Vision but also the sensors. Both system backing up each other for situations where Vision is not able to see a 'child playing hide and seek'.
Apparently, Elon Musk has never had to get up in the middle of the night with no lights on and go to the restroom, because if he had, he would know that site isn’t always what we base our path on. Even if you seen that area during the day, your toes are going to provide a certain amount of input in the dark.
I have a '22 M3LR with the sensors, my wife has a '23 MYP without sensors. I drive both cars and get waaaay more proximity alerts and forward collision warning in her car. I even see alerts to Stop when there is absolutely nothing around the car at all. So I vote that we keep the sensors.
I really wish they would've kept the sensors. The biggest concern for me is at night; how well was Tesla Vision tested at night or will be tested? I was driving a long dark road in a canyon when I got a warning that said something was covering my side cameras. Nothing was covering it, it was just so dark that the camera thought something was and it gave me that error. I love my 2023 Model 3 that I bought during the price cuts, but I really wish they had those sensors. Those sensors were an additional safety feature that got removed.
Removing USS before having the software ready seems oddly out of sequence. I’m sure tesla will continue to improve and expand Vision capability, but what if they end up dogfooding this for a long time? In light of this, maybe I should look into buying used instead of new.
My guess as to why they removed the sensors is that their supplier contracts for the sensors was expiring before the feature was fully ready, so instead of renewing, possibly at higher price, they probably went ahead and took it out
As someone that has designed the machines that install those sensors, I would say Sandy is slightly off because the facias go through a complex process to first punch the holes and then plastic weld the brackets for the sensor. This does not even include the manual assembly of the sensors themselves. In some cases the facias are going through many processes that involve moving those parts from factory to factory which is in itself VERY costly. So I am assuming Tesla is saving A LOT more than he thinks. I digress to his expertise on cost as I am a mere machine designer. The ironic thing is we use similar sensors to detect the presence of a part in the process raise quality control. However, it was our goal to move entirely to vision systems in the manufacture side to reduce costs on even our end. Very interesting "video". Thanks. Both my wife and I have worked on the Tesla and we are both in awe of their move to root cause and not producing useless features. I simply wish it was possible to do so with the big 3 but there is just too much red tape in the middle.
A small saving can be very costly in the end if the final product gets so bad the consumers reject it. Rain-sensor sucks as its camerabased. Vision-driving sucks as it doesnt work when visibility is below 3-500 yards, brakes for shadows from threes and the auto-dim is the same, as purely camerabased too and terrible slow to react as the cameras are flooded with light after passing an opposing car. All this due to cost-saving and all this makes the car utter stressfull to drive in anything but lab-perfect weather. More and more people here in Scandinavia is starting to recognize this, even YT-testers are starting to reject Teslas after having the cars for week-tests instead of just a few hours of driving on a, (not too much as the cameras then risk getting blinded from the sun = "Reduced speed due to limited visibility"), dry sunshiny day. Too much living in that spreadsheet and to little IRL. Dangerous roads Elon has chosen in the name of greed.
I am both an owner and investor. I have both the sensors on one vehicle and tesla vision on the other. I prefer the sensors they are so much more accurate and sees much clearer. The Tesla vision update is so excessively sensitive. making the dinging sound over and over all the time. The vision misses a lot just as in your video with your bike. I feel this was a way for them to make profits and cheap out on installing the sensors.
we have both a 3 and a Y with vision now. It's okay, the sides & back are pretty accurate but the front is atrocious. It flickers back and forth with a difference of like 10-20 inches and constantly beeps and tells us to stop. We also have the "park assist loading", which is annoying because it takes 10-20s to even load and at that time you're already out of the spot that you needed it.
Tesla needs to put the ultrasonic sensors back in their cars. Based on what you are saying,Kim, and others have said Tesla is already making healthy profits above others so putting the USS back in won’t impact that margin in a significant way. My opinion anyway.
The saving on removing the sensors isn’t the cost. It’s throughput at the factory. Not having to install 12 little sensors and their wiring will reduce time on station for the car and that will increase output, which is worth a lot more to them than $114 a car… Not sure it makes sense even then, but I suspect that’s why they did it.
I have found the auto wipers to be pretty good in the last few years. Going off in shadows is pretty much fixed. Not wiping when they should is pretty much fixed as well. On occasions I may have to press the left stalk button to do a quick wipe. I can see why cars without stalks would be frustrating.
Software is only as good as the hardware. Blind spots can only be fixed with more hardware (cameras). I love Tesla, but they're clearing rolling stuff out before it's ready. Great video
Huge tesla lover here, but when I am looking to buy a tesla next year I will not consider one without ultra sonic sensors at this time. Living in Oregon where it rains 80% of the year and side/rear cameras are always dirty, I don’t see how it would be possible to have park assist in the PNW conditions for a majority of the year. That’s a total deal breaker for me.
What Tesla is doing is what always does...skimping on its own testing of new software and using the owners as software testers (and as hardware testers, too, in this case). And the TH-camrs like Kim even do reports of their testing in the form of videos, saving Tesla engineers from having to do them!
Owners with just Telsa Vision should start a class action lawsuit against the company. It's crazy how bad that system still is today compared to models that have the sensors.
When you use the tape measure to compare to what the Tesla says is the distance, you probably need to measure the distance from the closest point on the car to the closest object and not from the sensor to the object.
I am an owner and investor. If you know anything about cars and mechanics you know the less the better. Less parts, less things that can break. Less worry as an owner. Hopefully they solve the issues with current hardware.
Totally agree but then he should not float the idea of "Robotaxi" which require, to be done correctly, a multitude of redundant and complementary sensors. Its a life and death matter after all. Aircrafts require tons of sensors to safely fly in IFR conditions
Just had the updated pushed to me last night, so today was the first chance I've had to play with it. Now coming from my wife's Model 3 with the Ultrasonic Sensors, this iteration of park assist using Tesla Vision doesn't compare. USS is so much more reliable and for the most part pretty darn accurate. Having said that, my RWD M3 doesn't have the sensors, so I've been without the Park Assist feature since I took delivery in November. I was pleasantly surprised on how it performed for me today. Keep in mind, I'm going from nothing to Tesla Vision Park Assist, so something is better than nothing. It definitely needs some improvement, but hey it's the first iteration, and I expect it will improve. The question is, will it ever get to the point of what we had with USS?
And considering that teslas parking, even with USS, was pretty horrible when compared to the properly functioning ones, is there any hope of the vision system ever being even halfway decent?
We have a late 2023 model y and the vision isn’t that bad normally, but sometimes it is really rubbish, especially with less clear bays, but the new 3d high fidelity park assist and proven very accurate and useful, we love it
Recently purchased a Model 3 without USS. Definitely don't totally trust the vision system. With the Holiday update, it seems to be a bit more accurate, but doesn't show distances any more so hard to say. Definitely think Tesla should have perfected the park assist features with Vision System before removing USS. It's ridiculous that these features are missing for so many and it's a step backwards in features for what seems like a minimal cost to Tesla. I'd be willing to pay extra for more sensors.
well done, elon, well done! seems like we are back in the 80s when a passenger had to step outside the car im order to wave the distance to the driver by hand. 🤦♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏼♂️🤦🏽♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏿♂️
I have an order in for a Model Y. However, we're really thinking of cancelling now due to some of their decisions. Unfortunately I didn't know about the removal of USS until after I ordered, but this is not a good thing. We have multiple kids so all safety features that are standard on most cars today are a big consideration. It's too bad because there are no other electric cars that would fit our needs, so we'd have to go with a gas SUV as the alternative.
I'll sum it up in two words: "It sucks." This is just Tesla trying to cut costs wherever they can. According to tests I've seen so far it can be up to 80 cm wrong compared to traditional sensors, which means that it's completely useless. When you're parking in tight spaces, you want the sensors for those tight clearances and with an 80 cm fault margin, it simply can't be trusted. They promised the camera-based rain sensor would get "fixed" too, but after countless updates, it still sucks compared to traditional dedicated rain sensors. The next thing they're going to remove is probably the external temperature sensor. Not great for us who lives up north where it's always around 0-degree celsius during winter. I need to constantly check the app to see the external temperature before I drive, because If it's above 0 then I can just get in the car and drive. If it's 0 or below, however, I need to pre-heat the car to prevent the window from freezing, or else I can't close the door.... Without that sensor, I'll have to preheat EVERY time and waste a lot of power and money. And don't even get me started on the decision to use touch buttons on the steering wheel instead of stalks for the blinkers.. They're impossible to use in roundabouts, which is what we use in Europe btw.. And then there's the decision to operate the windshield wipers from the screen instead of a stalk.. Some guy in Germany crashed his Model 3 not too long ago while trying to adjust his wipers from the screen... It's just not a safe design! It might not have been such a nightmare if the car had a proper rain sensor, but it doesn't, so you have to fiddle on the screen constantly when it rains to change the speed, because you just can't rely on that camera-based rain sensor. I usually just turn it off. It works "ok" during optimal lighting conditions, but it's completely useless after dark, when it snows etc. I suspect the vision-based distance sensors will be no different than the camera-based rain sensor.. Lots of promises, but it will never be as good as dedicated sensors. It's been years since they promised to fix phantom braking, but it's still there. Same with the camera-based rain sensor. Let's just be honest: Camera vision isn't perfect for everything. That's probably why my robot vacuum cleaner has both lidar AND camera sensors because they both have their strengths and weaknesses. As a customer, I'd gladly pay a little bit extra for the convenience of a dedicated rain sensor, parking sensors, external temperature sensor, and a dedicated stalk for my blinkers etc. When I spend this much money on a car, I'd like to be without that constant frustration on a daily basis. Especially when I know that most 10-20-year-old cars have better-working parking sensors, rain sensors etc..
I have a 2023 model 3 with vision only and just got the update it’s pretty hilarious as I have a dirt driveway that’s about 300 feet long and the park assist goes nuts
Excellent video, Kim. Fair and balanced. Also, just curious if the land / lots across from your house will ever have houses on them? I've been curious about this in the time i've been watching your channel. Good for you if it will remain undeveloped!
We own 2 Tesla vehicles. Love them. Now ... for Elon to make a statement (I'm paraphrasing) "Humans (basically just) drive with their eyes & and biological neural nets" is asinine because we use HEARING to detect potential environment situations like sirens or tire's screeching, our sense of FEEL to sense what rain or wind feels like against the car. So while they are not the PRIMARY senses we drive with, these are all things that could be considered secondary - or redundant - sensors. Like RADAR! How can he not see that.
Big fail. I'm glad I have the USS. If it ever gets good, they can always supplement the old cars with it. The vision system will always have limitations since it has blind spots that it can't compensate for when not moving.
Just picked up my 2023 Performance Model Y. No issues with Tesla vision. I never liked auto park and summon feature on my 3. It never really functioned well for me so I stuck with the basic auto pilot and didn't add the enhanced version.
I have a 2018 M3LR that came with radar and sonic sensors. Have these been disabled? The few times I've tried to use Autopark lately, the 'P' symbol indicating a space just would not appear. And using Autopilot in heavy rain is often not possible because the cameras are occluded. Deleting and disabling sensors are a big mistake!
Slightly worried about the model y I have on order with June delivery. Removing the sensors without the vehicle being equipped with HW4 (more cameras) makes me think I won’t want to take delivery. I currently have a model 3 I bought new in 2020
Kim, thanks for making this video. You are more likely to get Tesla to listen to you than I can get them to listen to me. I have a new Model Y without the sensors and got the software update last Saturday. On Friday night, it was a nervous nelly going through the drive-thru at In-N-Out, thinking I was going to hit the building or the shrubbery, whereas my 2017 Volt always did just fine. Saturday inside the underground parking garage at the LAX Hilton, it said I had over a foot of room before hitting a column, when the bumper actually ran into the column, then it said I had lots of room in front where I touched a plastic chain at the back of the parking space. Again my Volt would have negotiated this just fine. The parking assist graphics look super-cool, but this feature has a long way to go. Tesla is doing a poor job of using prior video frames as it approaches a parking space to improve the 3D dimensions, but this will never find a child or animal hiding in front of the car. Clearly either radar will be needed or more cameras at the nose of the car. If you want ulltrasonic quality parking assist, cancel your Model Y/3 order until you can be sure you'll get the extra front cameras, which might come with/after Hardware 4.
I am happy with tesla vision. Yes it is not as accurate as the uss but i am sure it will get even better. One thing most reviewers never mention that the tesla vision also gives you warning about parallel parking to a curb which has been very helpful for me to save me from curb rashes. Uss cars do not even have this feature. I dont need to rely on park assist to see what is in front of me but I do need assistance while parallel parking.
I get why Tesla removed them, but I do miss the sensors at this time. I’m hopeful they can improve. Right now, my vision park is basically useless where I am. It is frequently “loading” or “unavailable,” and when it IS working, it starts screaming STOP as my tires first touch my parking pad when I have another car length to go. I’ve just muted the chimes.
Great video! Hopefully Vision will improve over time, at this point I can’t rely on it when parking. I’m curious about the extra display you have mounted. Are you happy with it? If you are I would love to know where you bought it. Thanks.
I still got Ultrasonic Sensors (USS) on my 2024 MYP manufactured in Shanghai. I am so glad that they have them. I was so worried before I got the car. Tesla I know price cuts are critical, at least give people a chance to buy them as factory options.
I’m coming from a 2013 Toyota Corolla - without all the electronic driving safety assist systems. This is a nothing burger to me. 😅 But, at this price point, yeah, I totally get it.
I just purchased my 2023 model Y with Vision and when parking in my garage I unfortunately have to ignore those stop warnings even when I pull into my driveway. A lot of the time I get the parking assist loading and I just pull out of my spot because sometimes I don't have time to wait for that...I should probably learn where to check what software version I have. I still like my Tesla after a couple of weeks but I never got to have the sensors so I can't really compare the two but the best way I can view when parking is just backing into a spot.
I am sorry but software isn't going to fix what the camera physically cannot see. Even Ford with their Mach-E for their hands-free self driving use BOTH ultrasonic sensors AND A CAMERA ON THE GRILLE in order to achieve this. Parking is the main reason for these sensors and there not being one on the bumper like on Ford is ridiculous. The sensors had to be REPLACED with cameras, not straight up removed with no alternative.
Just ordered a 2023 Model YP and not even concernet about sensors, coz My 2008 camry dint had No parking sensor😂😂, And if you keep your eyes open and attention on your surroundings you wont hit something Easily, So I only Hope they can improve this feature over time thru software updates!!
Vision-based rain sensor is so bad on my 2019 M3 that I only use manual mode. And you have to take your eye off the road to switch wiper speeds. I’ve also disabled audio warnings whenever possible - a lot more annoying than useful.
i am so glad i bought my car when i did in 2019. fancy headlights are not worth the lack of USS. can't believe Tesla cheaped out to save a hundred bucks.. Going to cost them more in cameras, although curious to see if HW4 does any better..
per personal experience, i feel it's better to have the Tesla Vision Park Assist than not. i can't compare to USS cuz i've never driven a car with one. I do believe in the Tesla Vision approach, but i feel they should add more/better/different camera (prob project Highland will solve this), in possibly better locations/placement. At least an extra camera in lower front, and 1 on each side in the far front.
I’ve been driving since 1973 and bought dozens of new and used cars in my time, which none of them ever had sensors or did I check for panel gaps.I am a big investor and this past Wednesday I took delivery of my 2023 M3P and subscribed to FSD wanting to drive beta. It has v11.1(2023.2.200) and I don’t even see this option on my screen. I’m still learning and figuring all this out. Great videos.
I had a 22 model y and sold it due to starting a business and now I'm able to order and take delivery of a 23 model y this weekend and I'm regretting selling my 22. That being said I'm aware of the frustrations I'm going to face and will have to just trust that Tesla will make this better. Overall I still love the vehicle but profits over people has proven to not be a good move.
About getting better with updates (camera only), there is nothing to improve nor update when there is no data to process in the front. If it sees nothing, "there is nothing" for the computer to process. Only extra hardware can solve this. And there is the loop: extra cost. They never had to remove the ultrasone sensors in the first place.
This is what I don’t get when people say AI will solve this. AI is dependent on sensors and data to make intelligent decisions, and if neither is there, what’s it being trained on exactly? There’s a guy above saying that it doesn’t work in his white painted garage because the cameras can’t work out the surface.
I've got a 2023 MY LR with HW4. I feel comfortable backing into a parking space because there are well placed cameras in the back and sides of the car. On the other hand pulling forward into a parking space is scary. I'm so scared of spaces with the concrete parking bumpers that I end up parking way short and getting out to see what the actual distance is. I shouldn't have to do that on a technically advanced car. When I park in my single car garage, it's constantly telling me to stop when I have plenty of space in front of me. I'm not sure how the current camera configuration can fix this issue. The software needs to analyze the scene from further back when it can actually see the floor in the garage before I start pulling in. It's not doing a great job of that right now.
The sensors are needed for auto parking and summon. And, the wipers are not improved. And the quirks in FSD are still dangerous. Phantom, breaking on busy freeways, turning into turn lanes when it shouldn’t, and taking curves too fast are three we are experiencing with regularity.
Here’s my take. Elon argues that humans use vision to interact with our surroundings and make judgments of speed and distance based on the information our eyes give us. So the cars he builds should be able to do the same. Now let us give the microphone to a bat who happens to be in the same room and get his perspective on this. The bat tells us that his family has been getting along fine for thousands of years despite being totally blind. The bat says that he uses state-of-the-art radar to avoid collisions and maneuver himself around and that there have been very few safety issues. The bat is happy with his radar and does not see the need to change to vision based technology now or in the future. Thank you, Bat, for taking the time to participate in this interview.
I have a M3 with USS and MY w/o USS. I do admit USS are better right now, but I'm confident that we will have constant updates for the next 3-6 months that will continue to improve this system.
Tesla should have had Tesla vision up and running before removing USS from cars, I have a MYLR with USS and honestly if I didn't get the sensors I wouldn't have purchased the car, they are essential for a car this size, I live in London, we have small streets and 90% of people don't have driveways. As an investor this angers me as you highlighted the cost is so small, why upset customers for small gains. All these alerts you're getting with Tesla vision isn't safe, it creates uncertainty and anxiety especially if you're trying to park quickly. They could have run the USS with Tesla vision side by side until it was actually tested and proven. Great Video
I think the lack of radar also limits Tesla's performance. I think relying only on Tesla Vision for autopilot and safety features has created an over sensitive and jittery system. I get false warnings and jerky steering/braking/acceleration inputs on my Tesla, I believe as a direct result of not having radar in the sensor mix. Conversely, I have on occasion nearly had my car drive itself straight into adjacent cars on the road. So, that visual jittering that we see at parking speeds is also happening at driving speeds, which is affecting far more critical scenarios and therefore causing dangerous behaviour.
Yeah testing is going on in the uk and not good so far, Tesla software developers/engineers should be ashamed after releasing this,it’s bad and I’ll even go as far as saying dangerous as the front and rear cameras can not see small objects in the cars path like you have said where at least LiDAR and ultrasonics pick them up,it will be interesting to see how they can improve this but for now be”VERY” cautious when using this new feature,thanks Kim 👍
Ditto Scandinavia. My otherwise trusty 30.000 Miles a year 2021 TM3 has converteret into a POC toycar after the "Vision-virus" where Elon stole the radar & drivability i paid for and completely ruined the car in anything but lab-perfect conditions. Unbelievable.
The removal has definitely caused me to wait on buying a Model Y, especially the self reported increased phantom braking along with USS inconsistency. So I probably will wait until either they add a front camera + radar in HW4 or until a competitor gets to a more appealing price point. Otherwise I would have already bought one this year.
As an investor and owner of a MY2023 with no ultrasound sensors, my POV is that in order to create value for customers and investors, you have to be careful about playing with technology which is not ready in mission critical like parking aids. I am comfortable with Tesla profits (my numbers are a litlte bit lower but double to the next automaker), saving $200 vetting in a future of a non-proven technology in a car of this price point, considering all the competirors out there is too risky.
Disclaimer: TSLA investor and employee (obviously biased) I had a 2020 M3SR and the ultrasonic chimes I found rather annoying in my tight garage and with passengers who weren’t used to the car and thought we were in danger when I was simply doing a basic parking maneuver. My 2022 MX has the ultrasonic sensors still but it doesn’t do the annoying chiming. I still prefer to manually park using the suite of cameras and mirrors, which I think is adequately safe. I’m of the belief that the self parking features will be more reliable when Dojo becomes implemented.
Have two new model Y (2023) and a 2014 mod S. The weeks without any kind of parking assistance were annoying. Maybe not so much in relation to parking as I always back up when I park, but preferably when I was driving in narrow passages. Car parks, narrow driveways, road work areas are examples. So when Vision came it was a big improvement even if in my view it is very cautious in distance measurement the right way :-) But compared to Mod s from 2014 it still doesn't feel as safe. But it can be a matter of habit. It amazes me that Tesla took 6 months to get the vision rolled out. It probably means that this is excessively complex.
We replaced a Santa Fe XL Ultimate with the Model Y two months ago, and I _really_ miss the 360 overhead view from its four cameras. I'd take that over woogly lines, bings, and bongs any day of the week.
Yeah, what happens if it's raining, snowing, or if your head lights stops working? Your vision system will become severely compromised. Sensors should be there in place, as backup systems in case the optical systems were to fail
If the existing rear camera, Tesla Vision, and three mirrors are not sufficient for you to park the car, then you may have to consider giving up your driving license and stopping driving altogether. However, it's worth noting that I personally park my 2003 car using only my side mirrors and have never had a problem
Vision only requires massive processing for the computer which will slow overall processing of the car. The ultrasonic sensors provide simpler bits of information that require much less processing. The issue with the ultrasonic sensors is also a software issue which can be updated easily. Furthermore TeslaRaj is right when he said there needs to be more cameras and that means more processing.
Our 2019 Model 3 has the sensors and we’ve had zero problems with bumps and scrapes in 4 years. Our new Model Y has no sensors and so far we’ve had one rear impact and one valet driver scratching the rear quarter on a post. I HATE the lack of sensors. Tesla is flat out lying by saying the new vision based approach works. It’s total crap. One of the worst ideas Tesla has ever had is removing the sensors. I would gladly pay whatever it takes to retrofit the Model Y with sensors.
I am a owner and an investor. I took delivery of my Austin TX. built Model Y at the end of October last year and it still have the seasons and they work very well. From what I've been seeing and hearing from others in the community the vision system sucks. But even at $100 a car that isn't much to pass on to the consumer. When Tesla raised prices over and over, consumers didn't like it but that didn't hurt demand, so tacking on the cost for the sensors we would all be happy to pay that price for something we know that works. If they're doing it to save cost and make a profit then it makes no sense, since they could easily pass that cost onto us who would pay for it easily. Let's say it cost them $100 but they added in $500 into the price of the vehicle to cover that cost and then some. Given what we're willing to pay for their vehicles we would easily pay it.
I got my 2023 model Y long range built in Texas in November/December and I noticed no sensors. Which sucks because I’m so use to backing up and hearing warning signals and telling me car is approaching if I don’t see if. Prior car was ford edge. Well this was very upsetting. Well got the update last week and it’s better hit not the same as to having sensors. It does help when going into a parking space straight on. It’s a little iffy when turning into a space like it has a dead zone in a corner of the front bumper but it’s much better though with warnings. Just trying to figure it out by time and getting the hang of it and also with updates I hope it improve. Feel like Tesla needs more cameras on the car maybe some in the headlights for better vision. But still happy with it better then nothing
My wife uses the camera on her Nissan to park in the garage. Telsa just needs to turn on all the camera when something in getting close when moving at a really low speed.
Tesla Vision is also limited by hardware, the cameras also have their limitations, such as the pixels are not enough, bad weather, blind spot, etc. Software won't solve those limitations. I hope the refreshed Model 3 will do a better job with more cameras and higher resolutions and not sure if the new lidar would help.
I like Sensors and I like Vision. As an owner of 2 Teslas I just want enough accuracy to not hit something. My one car with FSD has greatly improved with the latest FSD update. Still gets a bit WONKY at turns and STOP signs and STOP light. Still holding out hope! 🙏
Vision is good, vision plus ultra sonic sensor is even better. There are edge cases that vision may not see obstacles when it is too close to the bomber or the obstacle is placed there after the car is parked. I would say the ultra sonic sensors serve as extra eyes. For human vision our eyes are up front not set back with a long hood blocking our view.
I am a Tesla owner and investor. I think it is great that Tesla is pushing the boundaries of what can be done with cameras alone, but I think it should develop these features in shadow mode using existing sensors until the new systems are optimised and ready for wide release.
100% agree with everything you wrote.
Amen! The time to delete the ultrasonic sensors from the car would be *AFTER* the vision-only system works at least as well as those sensors did, not year(s?) *before* .
Yeah, it’s unacceptable to cripple features like that. No respect for customers. Not sure my next EV will be a Tesla (currently own a 2021 MY).
I believe need to reduce redundant information to not cause added info overload to the computer. Better for car to the decision based on one system rather than being second guessed and causing phantom braking and other systemic errors
@@alaface Well, that's a plausible-sounding guess. My plausible-sounding counter-guess is that the frame rate during an 0.5MPH parking maneuver can be dropped *at least* in half (more like by an order of magnitude) vs. highway speeds, so the computer ought to have cycles to spare even if it's taking in extra information when deciding whether the car is getting too close to the lawnmower. Furthermore, it doesn't have to be the customers who guinea-pig the new vision-based parking suite, but selected volunteers or (gasp!) Tesla employees. So I stand by my outrage.
I am a new Tesla model Y owner. Picked mine up on March 1st. Honestly, I didn’t do all that much research on the sensor stuff. I read somewhere that sensors were being replaced by Vision, and it made it sound like it would be the same or better so I didn’t think much of it. However, once I actually picked up the Tesla and realized it had Zero park assist I was filled with regret. I couldn’t believe it. And then this week I get the vision only update and it’s so horrible that I wish I could turn it off. It’s so inaccurate most of the time that there is no point in keeping it on. Sure, it’s “cool” that it can TRY to do that with vision only, however, it’s not practical and unreliable. All my other (much older and cheaper) cars have sensors and have WAY better park assist features, and real measurable accuracy.
I’m not going to be one of those guys that says “but it will get better with updates!”. We don’t know that for sure. And honestly, I don’t trust teslas decision making at this point. I will likely end up selling this one and getting the new Volvo EX90.
That is really shameful Tesla doing crap like this to their customers, like extreme arrogance and incompetence rolled in one.
Tesla forces you to acknowledge that they took away the USS sensors before you complete delivery. Too bad they didn't have ANY solution for 6 months. We are just guinea pigs for another big corp. By 2024, the market will be flooded with great EVs with unique features, not barren and basic like these Teslas. They will have fully tested hardware for driver assist, too, because they've developed them over a decade(s) now, not like Tesla removing radar and USS and having nothing for years (radar). If Tesla removed hardware, why didn't they give us a discount???
I felt the same way. It is a 100% bad move for Tesla. I even canceled the installation on the war charger for my model Y. Just use the mobile charger for now. Maybe another EV will come out better than Tesla one day.
Exactly this, I'm rethinking my interest in buying a Model Y.
It's great that the software gets constantly updated, but I want a working car that competes with competition, not a "it will always get better with time, pinky promise!" car, not when you pay a premium.
How about for this price it's "already very good and just gets even better than competition" car? Because at the moment, for this price it's neither good nor competing well.
I would hate for you to leave the Tesla family, but I truly understand your wanting the sensors! They are truly the best warning feature any car can have, especially when it comes to blind spots! All the best to you!
My 2019 Model 3 dual motor had all the sensors, park assist, enhanced auto pilot, etc. I now have a 2022 Model Y and don’t like the vision only sensors!!!
Here’s to hoping it’ll get better over time and be even more reliable than ultrasonics in the future.
I feel the same way with my 2019 Model 3. 👍
Just got my model Y about 10 days ago and this feature is very disappointing. I don’t have much faith that they will be able to make this as good as the old system. Other than that I love the car but this is a big issue.
I heard AP1 back from 2016 actually works better than newest stuff they have 😂
I miss my radar and sonar sensors so much. Yesterday, when backing out of my work garage, I totally would have hit the pillar to the left of me with my left side mirror if I wasn’t backing out old school - with my own eyes and the over the shoulder guidance. My car gave me no warning at all.
Worst decision Tesla could have made was to remove the sensors! And it will make a difference whether I buy another Tesla in the near future. Thanks for your video!
Agree. Indefensible no matter how good the software is. Radar was the other worst decision. I don't trust Tesla's in the road without radar because software can't fix cameras inability to see past the car ahead.
Agreed. Still don’t understand why they remove the sensors
@@floridaeveryday123 save money and because "future" and "science" and "innovation" and "weak Musk ego"
I love Telsa, but they have made a HUGE mistake in removing ultrasonic sensors! One of the main reasons I didn't upgrade my 2021 to a new 2023 model Y is I didn't want to lose my sensors. Vision is never going to be as good or as accurate as ultrasonic due to real world environmental conditions. Cameras must have ability to see for vision to effectively work. When it's snowing, raining or mud / water gets on the camera lens, the vision system becomes impaired and not reliable or accurate. Also, one of the reasons I believe FSD is struggling is not the software, rather the full reliance of cameras having clear vision. It's simply not realistic in the real world that cameras will be always clean and clear. They need to bring back radar and ultrasonic sensors to truly enable redundant, safe, reliable and effective FSD in the real world.
I love when people make a comment like this and then an update comes out. And V1 of Tesla vision is pretty slick. Can display WAY more data than USS. Including posts etc. ultimately it’s better than the ultrasonic sensors, with the exception of displaying distance, which will probably come. I’ve nearly hit a pole with my USS setup.
@@ibsn87 The problem is not the quantity of data, but its quality. Much better to have less data but more accurate.
@@jamesclerkmaxwell8020 so are you saying that USS not seeing a single post/bollard is better data? (A problem that all cars with USS can experience FWIW).
Yeah, this is something I've always thought about, even if you did the whole Elon Musk thing of magically matching the performance of the literal human mind... a human mind and eyes are actually still much worse at judging difficult distances than an ultrasonic sensor!
Am an investor, but I am not in favour of removing the sensors. Have trouble with Tesla vision sometimes during winter, so I know it is not perfect in all conditions. Better to have more safety. Prefer to have option to pay at the very least!
I complained to the center European Area Sales Manager, Maxence BLANC about the missing park assist. Thai was back in February. He called me up and he told me that park assist is not a safety feature and I should not worry because an update is coming soon.
I am really really regret to the fact that I told my dad to get the new Model Y. This car and all the carts without USS, will never operate as good as the cars are having USS. If there is a class action I am all in!!!
@@dangr3957 You're correct; It simply *can't* work better than a vehicle with USS. Therefore it never *will*
As crazy as this sounds, I think it has cost them sales. I was going to buy a 2023 Model 3 after the price cuts, but after some research and seeing all the features they have removed on the newer models I decided a used 2021 was actually a better car. I love a lot of things about what Tesla is trying to achieve but at the end of the day, it is still a car that people use everyday and it needs to be reliable.
As long as they don't disable USS support in the software, even if you have the hardware, like they did with radar. Although, I would suspect this won't happen because I think the real reason for dropping radar support is because they couldn't get it to work reliably in combination with the cameras. Their so called "neural net" software was getting too confused.
@@vasil7410 that's strange since other car makers were able to use them effectively. Seems like they were under pressure to deliver rather then optimize their net
I also did my research before buying and decided against Tesla based on this missing feature, because I would really miss parking sensors if they weren’t there, and it seems a little dodgy to still sell you options under enhanced autopilot which currently don’t work on any of the new vehicles, I believe, like summon
Even if you bought the older one with those sensors the underlying software would disable them with those OTA updates which change the algorithms
@@BRBallin1 As of right now they still work. If they disable them, especially before having perfected the vision system, I'll be pissed.
With the current Camera placement there is some serious shortcomings on vision only. Notice while they have enabled park assist they are still not allowing summon and smart summon. This is because with the current camera locations they can’t see what is required to be seen for it to work. Then we also have situations where an object smaller than front bumper can’t be seen at all with front cameras. Your idea of a bumper camera has the flaw it would almost always be obstructed with debris from insects/road grim.
Which is why a vision only based system is an inherently flawed concept...
🤔
They'll never get it to work properly. There aren't enough cameras.
For those that don't mind vision only sensors...old saying goes and still applies: "You don't know what you're missing until you no longer have it or lost it"
I CANNOT agree more about the wipers. I have a 2022 Model 3 Performance and I love the car. HOWEVER, I hate hate hate my wipers. Doesn’t come on while pouring the rain, DOES come on on a bright sunny day without a cloud in the sky though. Windshield perfectly clean, not a raindrop in hundreds of miles and my wipers are just going to town. Hate it. Oh and I also still have the sensors. LOVE THEM. Eff the vision crap.
I'm seeing you're reporting honestly about all the mistakes tesla is making (at our expense) and I appreciate it. Glad you've renamed the channel from Like Tesla as these things simply make me not like mine at times. It's a great car but the amount of flaws and seemingly idiotic (greedy?) decisions is astounding. Wipers too as you've said. They're an utter disaster. Keep up honest reporting. Felt good to hear you voice my frustration...
I have a 2023 MY and I am honestly very frustrated with it. I feel cheated, I just got FSD 11.3.5 last night and drove it today and had multiple disengages due to safety. As I watch all the amazing TH-cam videos of others doing almost flawless drives I just knew that this would not be the case for all of the people who got stuck with the stripped down Tesla's. I, like a dummy (mainly because it is my first Tesla and didn't know any better) I paid 15K for FSD. Tesla should have kept their car's with USS and radar until they knew that vision works just as good as the older models. I had a 2021 loaner from Tesla (was getting a paint chip fixed from our January pickup day) for a week and it preformed much better than my 2023. Maybe one day (soon I hope) vision will outshine sensor's but until then we're stuck with inferior car's.
Got 6 inches of snow last night, and took the 23 Model Y out for a drive today. All kinds of mistakes and dings when driving on the roads today. Vision tracking feels like a big fail in any kind of inclement weather. Lots of work, and TBH- I’d rather have reliable sensors vs alpha vision.
I believe there isn’t any car that can keep between lines in winter conditions.
You're just a Tesla hater! Elon promised coast to coast level 5 autonomy by 2017 and I still believe my hero!! :-D
Imagine the mess of just a few teslas, let alone thousands, doing Robotaxi drives in those conditions and deciding they can't see and just stop where they are. No-one to look out an open window to make sure, find a safe parking spot, clean the camaras, just force majeur and too bad for everyone on the roads.
The vision park assist doesn't bother me, I use my own eyes. But the auto wipers drive me absolutely bananas!
YES!!
I completely agree, at o dark 30 in AM or PM, completely useless.
I agree! 90 percent of the time the wipers go insanely fast for the lightest of rain
Auto wipers are absolute the worse. The vision park doesn’t work because you can’t see the hood of the MY to “eye ball” it. However, over time I’ll probably be able to predict where I need to be.
We all use our own eyes all of the time but mine do not have the benefit of an accurate built in measure and nor do they work as well in the dark or in bad weather. All of these systems are primarily there to back up a human, not to replace one but they often catch things that we do not, that is the real value of them.
It really should have both....they are aiming for FSD and for those situations (just like planes) they need redundant systems, not only Vision but also the sensors. Both system backing up each other for situations where Vision is not able to see a 'child playing hide and seek'.
That is a excellent video for new Tesla owners, like myself, I am going to pick up my Tesla model Y this week.
I hope someone starts a class action lawsuit to force tesla to retrofit sensors onto all the cars without USS
Apparently, Elon Musk has never had to get up in the middle of the night with no lights on and go to the restroom, because if he had, he would know that site isn’t always what we base our path on. Even if you seen that area during the day, your toes are going to provide a certain amount of input in the dark.
Well said.
Bad analogy. Try doing that at 80mph. You'll want the lights on so you can use your eyes.
The more he talks about any technology, the more apparent it becomes he doesn't actual know what he is talking about.
I have a '22 M3LR with the sensors, my wife has a '23 MYP without sensors. I drive both cars and get waaaay more proximity alerts and forward collision warning in her car. I even see alerts to Stop when there is absolutely nothing around the car at all. So I vote that we keep the sensors.
I really wish they would've kept the sensors. The biggest concern for me is at night; how well was Tesla Vision tested at night or will be tested? I was driving a long dark road in a canyon when I got a warning that said something was covering my side cameras. Nothing was covering it, it was just so dark that the camera thought something was and it gave me that error. I love my 2023 Model 3 that I bought during the price cuts, but I really wish they had those sensors. Those sensors were an additional safety feature that got removed.
Exactly. USS and radar are better than "eyes." That's why MB uses redudancy for superior safety.
Removing USS before having the software ready seems oddly out of sequence. I’m sure tesla will continue to improve and expand Vision capability, but what if they end up dogfooding this for a long time? In light of this, maybe I should look into buying used instead of new.
My guess as to why they removed the sensors is that their supplier contracts for the sensors was expiring before the feature was fully ready, so instead of renewing, possibly at higher price, they probably went ahead and took it out
I 100% regret buying a 2023 now.
I would trade it for a low mileage 2021 straight up to be honest
As someone that has designed the machines that install those sensors, I would say Sandy is slightly off because the facias go through a complex process to first punch the holes and then plastic weld the brackets for the sensor. This does not even include the manual assembly of the sensors themselves. In some cases the facias are going through many processes that involve moving those parts from factory to factory which is in itself VERY costly. So I am assuming Tesla is saving A LOT more than he thinks. I digress to his expertise on cost as I am a mere machine designer. The ironic thing is we use similar sensors to detect the presence of a part in the process raise quality control. However, it was our goal to move entirely to vision systems in the manufacture side to reduce costs on even our end. Very interesting "video". Thanks. Both my wife and I have worked on the Tesla and we are both in awe of their move to root cause and not producing useless features. I simply wish it was possible to do so with the big 3 but there is just too much red tape in the middle.
For what reason have you put the word video in quotations?
A small saving can be very costly in the end if the final product gets so bad the consumers reject it. Rain-sensor sucks as its camerabased. Vision-driving sucks as it doesnt work when visibility is below 3-500 yards, brakes for shadows from threes and the auto-dim is the same, as purely camerabased too and terrible slow to react as the cameras are flooded with light after passing an opposing car. All this due to cost-saving and all this makes the car utter stressfull to drive in anything but lab-perfect weather. More and more people here in Scandinavia is starting to recognize this, even YT-testers are starting to reject Teslas after having the cars for week-tests instead of just a few hours of driving on a, (not too much as the cameras then risk getting blinded from the sun = "Reduced speed due to limited visibility"), dry sunshiny day. Too much living in that spreadsheet and to little IRL. Dangerous roads Elon has chosen in the name of greed.
@@AngelArm1110 play on words of the word "vision".
I am both an owner and investor. I have both the sensors on one vehicle and tesla vision on the other. I prefer the sensors they are so much more accurate and sees much clearer. The Tesla vision update is so excessively sensitive. making the dinging sound over and over all the time. The vision misses a lot just as in your video with your bike. I feel this was a way for them to make profits and cheap out on installing the sensors.
we have both a 3 and a Y with vision now. It's okay, the sides & back are pretty accurate but the front is atrocious. It flickers back and forth with a difference of like 10-20 inches and constantly beeps and tells us to stop. We also have the "park assist loading", which is annoying because it takes 10-20s to even load and at that time you're already out of the spot that you needed it.
Tesla needs to put the ultrasonic sensors back in their cars. Based on what you are saying,Kim, and others have said Tesla is already making healthy profits above others so putting the USS back in won’t impact that margin in a significant way. My opinion anyway.
The saving on removing the sensors isn’t the cost. It’s throughput at the factory. Not having to install 12 little sensors and their wiring will reduce time on station for the car and that will increase output, which is worth a lot more to them than $114 a car… Not sure it makes sense even then, but I suspect that’s why they did it.
I’m very skeptical they can improve park assist much because if a camera can’t see it the software doesn’t matter
Just like they are improving their self-driving while the cameras stay the same, they can improve park assist while the cameras stay the same.
How do human do it?
Bats and owls and dolphins also navigate with sonar and keen hearing, so I think radar is very useful here.
I have found the auto wipers to be pretty good in the last few years. Going off in shadows is pretty much fixed. Not wiping when they should is pretty much fixed as well. On occasions I may have to press the left stalk button to do a quick wipe. I can see why cars without stalks would be frustrating.
Software is only as good as the hardware. Blind spots can only be fixed with more hardware (cameras). I love Tesla, but they're clearing rolling stuff out before it's ready. Great video
Huge tesla lover here, but when I am looking to buy a tesla next year I will not consider one without ultra sonic sensors at this time. Living in Oregon where it rains 80% of the year and side/rear cameras are always dirty, I don’t see how it would be possible to have park assist in the PNW conditions for a majority of the year. That’s a total deal breaker for me.
What Tesla is doing is what always does...skimping on its own testing of new software and using the owners as software testers (and as hardware testers, too, in this case). And the TH-camrs like Kim even do reports of their testing in the form of videos, saving Tesla engineers from having to do them!
I’m sure Tesla’s engineers won’t even bother with Kim’s videos because everything is within specs.
Owners with just Telsa Vision should start a class action lawsuit against the company. It's crazy how bad that system still is today compared to models that have the sensors.
When you use the tape measure to compare to what the Tesla says is the distance, you probably need to measure the distance from the closest point on the car to the closest object and not from the sensor to the object.
I am an owner and investor. If you know anything about cars and mechanics you know the less the better. Less parts, less things that can break. Less worry as an owner. Hopefully they solve the issues with current hardware.
Totally agree but then he should not float the idea of "Robotaxi" which require, to be done correctly, a multitude of redundant and complementary sensors. Its a life and death matter after all. Aircrafts require tons of sensors to safely fly in IFR conditions
Worst thing to do is remove features and experiment with new features. Only remove old features if you know the new ones are tested!
Just had the updated pushed to me last night, so today was the first chance I've had to play with it. Now coming from my wife's Model 3 with the Ultrasonic Sensors, this iteration of park assist using Tesla Vision doesn't compare. USS is so much more reliable and for the most part pretty darn accurate. Having said that, my RWD M3 doesn't have the sensors, so I've been without the Park Assist feature since I took delivery in November. I was pleasantly surprised on how it performed for me today. Keep in mind, I'm going from nothing to Tesla Vision Park Assist, so something is better than nothing. It definitely needs some improvement, but hey it's the first iteration, and I expect it will improve. The question is, will it ever get to the point of what we had with USS?
What do you make of the fact that they spent at least 6 months making the product we got now? :-) Shouldn't the product be a bit more accurate?
And considering that teslas parking, even with USS, was pretty horrible when compared to the properly functioning ones, is there any hope of the vision system ever being even halfway decent?
To answer your final question: No, not possible.
We have a late 2023 model y and the vision isn’t that bad normally, but sometimes it is really rubbish, especially with less clear bays, but the new 3d high fidelity park assist and proven very accurate and useful, we love it
Recently purchased a Model 3 without USS. Definitely don't totally trust the vision system. With the Holiday update, it seems to be a bit more accurate, but doesn't show distances any more so hard to say. Definitely think Tesla should have perfected the park assist features with Vision System before removing USS. It's ridiculous that these features are missing for so many and it's a step backwards in features for what seems like a minimal cost to Tesla. I'd be willing to pay extra for more sensors.
well done, elon, well done! seems like we are back in the 80s when a passenger had to step outside the car im order to wave the distance to the driver by hand. 🤦♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏼♂️🤦🏽♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏿♂️
I have an order in for a Model Y. However, we're really thinking of cancelling now due to some of their decisions. Unfortunately I didn't know about the removal of USS until after I ordered, but this is not a good thing. We have multiple kids so all safety features that are standard on most cars today are a big consideration. It's too bad because there are no other electric cars that would fit our needs, so we'd have to go with a gas SUV as the alternative.
I'll sum it up in two words: "It sucks."
This is just Tesla trying to cut costs wherever they can. According to tests I've seen so far it can be up to 80 cm wrong compared to traditional sensors, which means that it's completely useless.
When you're parking in tight spaces, you want the sensors for those tight clearances and with an 80 cm fault margin, it simply can't be trusted.
They promised the camera-based rain sensor would get "fixed" too, but after countless updates, it still sucks compared to traditional dedicated rain sensors.
The next thing they're going to remove is probably the external temperature sensor. Not great for us who lives up north where it's always around 0-degree celsius during winter. I need to constantly check the app to see the external temperature before I drive, because If it's above 0 then I can just get in the car and drive. If it's 0 or below, however, I need to pre-heat the car to prevent the window from freezing, or else I can't close the door.... Without that sensor, I'll have to preheat EVERY time and waste a lot of power and money.
And don't even get me started on the decision to use touch buttons on the steering wheel instead of stalks for the blinkers.. They're impossible to use in roundabouts, which is what we use in Europe btw..
And then there's the decision to operate the windshield wipers from the screen instead of a stalk.. Some guy in Germany crashed his Model 3 not too long ago while trying to adjust his wipers from the screen... It's just not a safe design! It might not have been such a nightmare if the car had a proper rain sensor, but it doesn't, so you have to fiddle on the screen constantly when it rains to change the speed, because you just can't rely on that camera-based rain sensor. I usually just turn it off. It works "ok" during optimal lighting conditions, but it's completely useless after dark, when it snows etc.
I suspect the vision-based distance sensors will be no different than the camera-based rain sensor.. Lots of promises, but it will never be as good as dedicated sensors. It's been years since they promised to fix phantom braking, but it's still there. Same with the camera-based rain sensor.
Let's just be honest: Camera vision isn't perfect for everything. That's probably why my robot vacuum cleaner has both lidar AND camera sensors because they both have their strengths and weaknesses.
As a customer, I'd gladly pay a little bit extra for the convenience of a dedicated rain sensor, parking sensors, external temperature sensor, and a dedicated stalk for my blinkers etc. When I spend this much money on a car, I'd like to be without that constant frustration on a daily basis.
Especially when I know that most 10-20-year-old cars have better-working parking sensors, rain sensors etc..
I have a 2023 model 3 with vision only and just got the update it’s pretty hilarious as I have a dirt driveway that’s about 300 feet long and the park assist goes nuts
Excellent video, Kim. Fair and balanced. Also, just curious if the land / lots across from your house will ever have houses on them? I've been curious about this in the time i've been watching your channel. Good for you if it will remain undeveloped!
You and me both, they’ve wavered back and forth about building on it but we’re happy to have the trees.
We own 2 Tesla vehicles. Love them. Now ... for Elon to make a statement (I'm paraphrasing) "Humans (basically just) drive with their eyes & and biological neural nets" is asinine because we use HEARING to detect potential environment situations like sirens or tire's screeching, our sense of FEEL to sense what rain or wind feels like against the car. So while they are not the PRIMARY senses we drive with, these are all things that could be considered secondary - or redundant - sensors. Like RADAR! How can he not see that.
Wow! I am so glad I have the ultrasonic sensors for things I can not see.
Big fail. I'm glad I have the USS. If it ever gets good, they can always supplement the old cars with it. The vision system will always have limitations since it has blind spots that it can't compensate for when not moving.
light rain in the evening made the park assist stop working. This is an absolute joke!
In fact it is so inaccurate that it will be useless when you actually need it
My dad has a Tesla model Y the one without ultrasonic sensors he was very impressed by this type of approach that Tesla is doing right now.
Just picked up my 2023 Performance Model Y. No issues with Tesla vision. I never liked auto park and summon feature on my 3. It never really functioned well for me so I stuck with the basic auto pilot and didn't add the enhanced version.
I have a 2018 M3LR that came with radar and sonic sensors. Have these been disabled? The few times I've tried to use Autopark lately, the 'P' symbol indicating a space just would not appear. And using Autopilot in heavy rain is often not possible because the cameras are occluded. Deleting and disabling sensors are a big mistake!
Slightly worried about the model y I have on order with June delivery.
Removing the sensors without the vehicle being equipped with HW4 (more cameras) makes me think I won’t want to take delivery.
I currently have a model 3 I bought new in 2020
Imagine the grid lock of just a few self driving Teslas deciding to stop driving in a metropole enjoying a mild blizzard.
Kim, thanks for making this video. You are more likely to get Tesla to listen to you than I can get them to listen to me.
I have a new Model Y without the sensors and got the software update last Saturday. On Friday night, it was a nervous nelly going through the drive-thru at In-N-Out, thinking I was going to hit the building or the shrubbery, whereas my 2017 Volt always did just fine. Saturday inside the underground parking garage at the LAX Hilton, it said I had over a foot of room before hitting a column, when the bumper actually ran into the column, then it said I had lots of room in front where I touched a plastic chain at the back of the parking space. Again my Volt would have negotiated this just fine.
The parking assist graphics look super-cool, but this feature has a long way to go. Tesla is doing a poor job of using prior video frames as it approaches a parking space to improve the 3D dimensions, but this will never find a child or animal hiding in front of the car. Clearly either radar will be needed or more cameras at the nose of the car. If you want ulltrasonic quality parking assist, cancel your Model Y/3 order until you can be sure you'll get the extra front cameras, which might come with/after Hardware 4.
I have a 2022 model 3 LR picked up 11/22 that has sensors. I am glad it does!
I am happy with tesla vision. Yes it is not as accurate as the uss but i am sure it will get even better. One thing most reviewers never mention that the tesla vision also gives you warning about parallel parking to a curb which has been very helpful for me to save me from curb rashes. Uss cars do not even have this feature. I dont need to rely on park assist to see what is in front of me but I do need assistance while parallel parking.
I get why Tesla removed them, but I do miss the sensors at this time. I’m hopeful they can improve. Right now, my vision park is basically useless where I am. It is frequently “loading” or “unavailable,” and when it IS working, it starts screaming STOP as my tires first touch my parking pad when I have another car length to go. I’ve just muted the chimes.
Thanks!
I like how Elon says the perfect driver assist will be the one that mimics human senses, because y’know, people don’t get in terrible accidents ever.
indeed. Imagine if aircraft manufacturers followed the same "logic"... we would not be able to fly in the densest fogs using human senses only
Great video! Hopefully Vision will improve over time, at this point I can’t rely on it when parking. I’m curious about the extra display you have mounted. Are you happy with it? If you are I would love to know where you bought it. Thanks.
I still got Ultrasonic Sensors (USS) on my 2024 MYP manufactured in Shanghai. I am so glad that they have them. I was so worried before I got the car. Tesla I know price cuts are critical, at least give people a chance to buy them as factory options.
My 2021 YM is an early version, and it has the old school sensors.
I’m coming from a 2013 Toyota Corolla - without all the electronic driving safety assist systems. This is a nothing burger to me. 😅 But, at this price point, yeah, I totally get it.
I just purchased my 2023 model Y with Vision and when parking in my garage I unfortunately have to ignore those stop warnings even when I pull into my driveway. A lot of the time I get the parking assist loading and I just pull out of my spot because sometimes I don't have time to wait for that...I should probably learn where to check what software version I have. I still like my Tesla after a couple of weeks but I never got to have the sensors so I can't really compare the two but the best way I can view when parking is just backing into a spot.
I am sorry but software isn't going to fix what the camera physically cannot see. Even Ford with their Mach-E for their hands-free self driving use BOTH ultrasonic sensors AND A CAMERA ON THE GRILLE in order to achieve this. Parking is the main reason for these sensors and there not being one on the bumper like on Ford is ridiculous. The sensors had to be REPLACED with cameras, not straight up removed with no alternative.
Just ordered a 2023 Model YP and not even concernet about sensors, coz My 2008 camry dint had No parking sensor😂😂, And if you keep your eyes open and attention on your surroundings you wont hit something Easily, So I only Hope they can improve this feature over time thru software updates!!
Vision-based rain sensor is so bad on my 2019 M3 that I only use manual mode. And you have to take your eye off the road to switch wiper speeds. I’ve also disabled audio warnings whenever possible - a lot more annoying than useful.
i am so glad i bought my car when i did in 2019. fancy headlights are not worth the lack of USS. can't believe Tesla cheaped out to save a hundred bucks.. Going to cost them more in cameras, although curious to see if HW4 does any better..
per personal experience, i feel it's better to have the Tesla Vision Park Assist than not. i can't compare to USS cuz i've never driven a car with one. I do believe in the Tesla Vision approach, but i feel they should add more/better/different camera (prob project Highland will solve this), in possibly better locations/placement. At least an extra camera in lower front, and 1 on each side in the far front.
I’ve been driving since 1973 and bought dozens of new and used cars in my time, which none of them ever had sensors or did I check for panel gaps.I am a big investor and this past Wednesday I took delivery of my 2023 M3P and subscribed to FSD wanting to drive beta. It has v11.1(2023.2.200) and I don’t even see this option on my screen. I’m still learning and figuring all this out. Great videos.
I had a 22 model y and sold it due to starting a business and now I'm able to order and take delivery of a 23 model y this weekend and I'm regretting selling my 22. That being said I'm aware of the frustrations I'm going to face and will have to just trust that Tesla will make this better. Overall I still love the vehicle but profits over people has proven to not be a good move.
About getting better with updates (camera only), there is nothing to improve nor update when there is no data to process in the front. If it sees nothing, "there is nothing" for the computer to process. Only extra hardware can solve this. And there is the loop: extra cost.
They never had to remove the ultrasone sensors in the first place.
This is what I don’t get when people say AI will solve this. AI is dependent on sensors and data to make intelligent decisions, and if neither is there, what’s it being trained on exactly? There’s a guy above saying that it doesn’t work in his white painted garage because the cameras can’t work out the surface.
General rule of thumb should be that until something is proven to be working 100% fine, they should not remove them.
I've got a 2023 MY LR with HW4. I feel comfortable backing into a parking space because there are well placed cameras in the back and sides of the car. On the other hand pulling forward into a parking space is scary. I'm so scared of spaces with the concrete parking bumpers that I end up parking way short and getting out to see what the actual distance is. I shouldn't have to do that on a technically advanced car. When I park in my single car garage, it's constantly telling me to stop when I have plenty of space in front of me. I'm not sure how the current camera configuration can fix this issue. The software needs to analyze the scene from further back when it can actually see the floor in the garage before I start pulling in. It's not doing a great job of that right now.
The sensors are needed for auto parking and summon. And, the wipers are not improved. And the quirks in FSD are still dangerous. Phantom, breaking on busy freeways, turning into turn lanes when it shouldn’t, and taking curves too fast are three we are experiencing with regularity.
Here’s my take. Elon argues that humans use vision to interact with our surroundings and make judgments of speed and distance based on the information our eyes give us. So the cars he builds should be able to do the same. Now let us give the microphone to a bat who happens to be in the same room and get his perspective on this. The bat tells us that his family has been getting along fine for thousands of years despite being totally blind. The bat says that he uses state-of-the-art radar to avoid collisions and maneuver himself around and that there have been very few safety issues. The bat is happy with his radar and does not see the need to change to vision based technology now or in the future. Thank you, Bat, for taking the time to participate in this interview.
I have a M3 with USS and MY w/o USS. I do admit USS are better right now, but I'm confident that we will have constant updates for the next 3-6 months that will continue to improve this system.
Tesla should have had Tesla vision up and running before removing USS from cars, I have a MYLR with USS and honestly if I didn't get the sensors I wouldn't have purchased the car, they are essential for a car this size, I live in London, we have small streets and 90% of people don't have driveways. As an investor this angers me as you highlighted the cost is so small, why upset customers for small gains. All these alerts you're getting with Tesla vision isn't safe, it creates uncertainty and anxiety especially if you're trying to park quickly. They could have run the USS with Tesla vision side by side until it was actually tested and proven. Great Video
Never used/needed park assist in my life, either way, had fun to watch this.
I think the lack of radar also limits Tesla's performance. I think relying only on Tesla Vision for autopilot and safety features has created an over sensitive and jittery system. I get false warnings and jerky steering/braking/acceleration inputs on my Tesla, I believe as a direct result of not having radar in the sensor mix. Conversely, I have on occasion nearly had my car drive itself straight into adjacent cars on the road. So, that visual jittering that we see at parking speeds is also happening at driving speeds, which is affecting far more critical scenarios and therefore causing dangerous behaviour.
You speak fluently and clearly. ❤
Yeah testing is going on in the uk and not good so far, Tesla software developers/engineers should be ashamed after releasing this,it’s bad and I’ll even go as far as saying dangerous as the front and rear cameras can not see small objects in the cars path like you have said where at least LiDAR and ultrasonics pick them up,it will be interesting to see how they can improve this but for now be”VERY” cautious when using this new feature,thanks Kim 👍
Ditto Scandinavia. My otherwise trusty 30.000 Miles a year 2021 TM3 has converteret into a POC toycar after the "Vision-virus" where Elon stole the radar & drivability i paid for and completely ruined the car in anything but lab-perfect conditions. Unbelievable.
Not upgrading my USS equipped Tesla until they add front bumper cam (Highland refresh later this year is rumored to have that).
The removal has definitely caused me to wait on buying a Model Y, especially the self reported increased phantom braking along with USS inconsistency. So I probably will wait until either they add a front camera + radar in HW4 or until a competitor gets to a more appealing price point. Otherwise I would have already bought one this year.
As an investor and owner of a MY2023 with no ultrasound sensors, my POV is that in order to create value for customers and investors, you have to be careful about playing with technology which is not ready in mission critical like parking aids. I am comfortable with Tesla profits (my numbers are a litlte bit lower but double to the next automaker), saving $200 vetting in a future of a non-proven technology in a car of this price point, considering all the competirors out there is too risky.
Disclaimer: TSLA investor and employee (obviously biased)
I had a 2020 M3SR and the ultrasonic chimes I found rather annoying in my tight garage and with passengers who weren’t used to the car and thought we were in danger when I was simply doing a basic parking maneuver. My 2022 MX has the ultrasonic sensors still but it doesn’t do the annoying chiming. I still prefer to manually park using the suite of cameras and mirrors, which I think is adequately safe. I’m of the belief that the self parking features will be more reliable when Dojo becomes implemented.
Have two new model Y (2023) and a 2014 mod S. The weeks without any kind of parking assistance were annoying. Maybe not so much in relation to parking as I always back up when I park, but preferably when I was driving in narrow passages. Car parks, narrow driveways, road work areas are examples. So when Vision came it was a big improvement even if in my view it is very cautious in distance measurement the right way :-) But compared to Mod s from 2014 it still doesn't feel as safe. But it can be a matter of habit. It amazes me that Tesla took 6 months to get the vision rolled out. It probably means that this is excessively complex.
We replaced a Santa Fe XL Ultimate with the Model Y two months ago, and I _really_ miss the 360 overhead view from its four cameras. I'd take that over woogly lines, bings, and bongs any day of the week.
Yeah, what happens if it's raining, snowing, or if your head lights stops working? Your vision system will become severely compromised. Sensors should be there in place, as backup systems in case the optical systems were to fail
not just profit margin but production delays, my guess is those inferior cameras are easier to get than the sensors
If the existing rear camera, Tesla Vision, and three mirrors are not sufficient for you to park the car, then you may have to consider giving up your driving license and stopping driving altogether. However, it's worth noting that I personally park my 2003 car using only my side mirrors and have never had a problem
Vision only requires massive processing for the computer which will slow overall processing of the car. The ultrasonic sensors provide simpler bits of information that require much less processing. The issue with the ultrasonic sensors is also a software issue which can be updated easily. Furthermore TeslaRaj is right when he said there needs to be more cameras and that means more processing.
The vision park assist is currently terrible. At all the times I need it when parking it either days it’s unavailable or a camera is blocked.
Our 2019 Model 3 has the sensors and we’ve had zero problems with bumps and scrapes in 4 years. Our new Model Y has no sensors and so far we’ve had one rear impact and one valet driver scratching the rear quarter on a post. I HATE the lack of sensors. Tesla is flat out lying by saying the new vision based approach works. It’s total crap. One of the worst ideas Tesla has ever had is removing the sensors. I would gladly pay whatever it takes to retrofit the Model Y with sensors.
I am a owner and an investor. I took delivery of my Austin TX. built Model Y at the end of October last year and it still have the seasons and they work very well. From what I've been seeing and hearing from others in the community the vision system sucks.
But even at $100 a car that isn't much to pass on to the consumer. When Tesla raised prices over and over, consumers didn't like it but that didn't hurt demand, so tacking on the cost for the sensors we would all be happy to pay that price for something we know that works.
If they're doing it to save cost and make a profit then it makes no sense, since they could easily pass that cost onto us who would pay for it easily. Let's say it cost them $100 but they added in $500 into the price of the vehicle to cover that cost and then some. Given what we're willing to pay for their vehicles we would easily pay it.
I got my 2023 model Y long range built in Texas in November/December and I noticed no sensors. Which sucks because I’m so use to backing up and hearing warning signals and telling me car is approaching if I don’t see if. Prior car was ford edge. Well this was very upsetting. Well got the update last week and it’s better hit not the same as to having sensors. It does help when going into a parking space straight on. It’s a little iffy when turning into a space like it has a dead zone in a corner of the front bumper but it’s much better though with warnings. Just trying to figure it out by time and getting the hang of it and also with updates I hope it improve. Feel like Tesla needs more cameras on the car maybe some in the headlights for better vision. But still happy with it better then nothing
My wife uses the camera on her Nissan to park in the garage. Telsa just needs to turn on all the camera when something in getting close when moving at a really low speed.
10:09 boy, that audible reverse that comes out of the speaker is extremely loud on the video!
Tesla Vision is also limited by hardware, the cameras also have their limitations, such as the pixels are not enough, bad weather, blind spot, etc.
Software won't solve those limitations. I hope the refreshed Model 3 will do a better job with more cameras and higher resolutions and not sure if the new lidar would help.
I like Sensors and I like Vision. As an owner of 2 Teslas I just want enough accuracy to not hit something. My one car with FSD has greatly improved with the latest FSD update. Still gets a bit WONKY at turns and STOP signs and STOP light. Still holding out hope! 🙏
I also got a Model Y without ultrasonic sensors. I regret it. Good car otherwise but not having USS kills the "safe parking", very annoying.
Vision is good, vision plus ultra sonic sensor is even better. There are edge cases that vision may not see obstacles when it is too close to the bomber or the obstacle is placed there after the car is parked. I would say the ultra sonic sensors serve as extra eyes. For human vision our eyes are up front not set back with a long hood blocking our view.