How I Fixed Johto's Elite Four
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- Fixing Gen 2's Elite Four
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Having this entire monologue about the most capable, strong Trainer to take care of Zapdos ending with calling him "Birdkeeper Lance" felt so out of pocket.
To be fair, he is a bird keeper…. He just happens to like REALLY STRONG not-so-bird-looking-more-like-a-dragon birds😂
also all of his pokemon are flying types and half are dragon type so technically he's the flying type specialist
@@TheSmithPlayseh, a lot of dragons are dinosaur inspired - might as well keep a legendary bird together with birds of legends
@@sosukeleletechnically birds are in fact dinosaurs lol. They are the only dinosaurs to survive to modern times.
@@TheSmithPlays Errr, feels extremely forced. There's a difference between birdkeepers and dragon tamers, and Game Freak even distinguishes this with the Birdkeeper trainer class. Just because most of the dragon/lizard-like Pokemon tended to have Flying typing attached instead of Dragon in the earlier gens, it doesn't mean they are birds that a bird-enthusiast would capture and train. Whether you were aiming to fix Lance in a way that suited typing or theming which imo, is obviously Dragon-type dragons/lizards (and would have been this way had there been a larger selection of Dragon-types in the first two gens), you kinda failed to accomplish that either way by giving him a Zapdos.
This makes me feel like you're going to replace Red's Espeon with Mewtwo. A worthy challenge and end to this game
That would actually be pretty awesome
I can see it. Especially since Espeon was moved to Will. And, when talking about Red's team, he specifically did not mention Espeon.
That’d be HARD ASF
And he explained Red as us in gen 1, and who didn't keep Mewtwo on their team, and he's supposed to be the ultimate boss
@@blvck5943 I know, doesn't it sound great? Many nuzlocks will end here
Blaine having Moltres will definitely be awesome.
Fun fact, in the Pokemon adventures manga, Blaine also battled with Entei and Mewtwo on different occasions, so out of all the Kanto leaders, it's fitting that he wound up with Moltres in your hack.
Not to mention Blaine's Moltres being one of the sickest cards from back in the day
Could even give Red a line of text finally.... "I just caught this rare Mewtoo!"
Yea in the manga, Blaine was one of the most powerful trainers in the Alan to region
One of the few people said to even capable of challenging the Elite 4
Having Lance mention getting Zapdos from Red is actually good foreshadowing for the Kanto part of the game. The player wonders if they will run into the other two legendary birds as well. And they get a preview of how powerful Red will be (because he isn’t even using these legendary birds). I actually think this is brilliant for storytelling purposes.
Holy shit, you’re right
imagine seeing someone use a legendary and then being told "oh yeah my friend gave it to me because he wasn't interested in training it"
*what kind of pokemon must a competent trainer have for them to pass using legendaries*
I was thinking the same thing. The reveal of Lance having Zapdos will give the player an "omg" moment strong enough to wonder what happened to the others, making the Kanto post game something the player will be excited about rather than the slog that it is to get to Blue and Red
Then Blaine could have Moltres as his ace for postgame?? Would Blue still be the leader for the ground type gym? He wouldnt show Articuno...
@@ceetee3370 blue doesn't lead a ground type gym in any game as far as i know, he leads a typeless gym
I actually really like the idea of giving some of the NPC trainers the legendary birds with the explanation given
Same!
So all i'm hearing here is that in the Kanto post game, Blain better have Moltres and Blue better have Articuno.
Give youngster joey Lugia
@@DarthAnimalno, give him a hacked rattata instead
We need to continue this trend and give Red Mewtwo and Professor Oak Mew
I actually like Karen keeping houndoom as her ace. I think of that as more iconically hers. Plus, she can have a strong Pokémon like tyranitar on her team, but that doesn’t have to be her ace especially with her philosophy. I think her seeing her pseudo legendary as her second best because she’s got her personal favorite Pokémon as her ace fits her character and doesn’t undermine her power.
Considering how they market Karen, Umbreon has definitely been her modern ace, which makes Ttar her 3rd choice lol.
I really like the idea of her using Tyranitar because she respects its strength and Dark-type power, but having her ace(s?) still be Umbreon and/or Houndoom to still fit the Karen “your favorite mons can be your most powerful” ethos.
i like this idea a lot. very thoughtful
Yea I agree. Tyranitar doesnt fit her theme. Even more soo since it also hold a strong Ground type indentity
@@Emperor_AtlantisStarts off as a terrible but cute little guy that she trained up into a beast of a mon? Fits her more than it does silver.
Never notice the sky/sea dragon themes with Lance and Claire respectively, kinda makes me think that Claire's gym should've been filled with boiling water instead of lava to point at her sea dragon theme.
I've always seen that with her having blue color palette and Dragonair (although not water type) still is shown to be normally on water and also learns water moves.
Lance is a glorified bird keeper
Fun fact about Karen:
She uses all of the pokemon that you can catch in the routes adjacent to her hometown at nighttime - celadon city. Umbreon is the exception but you can get Eevee in the game corner!
WAIT SHES FROM CELADON???and I wrote her as being from cherry grove…
A really cool unintentional detail of the Elite 4 in Gen 1 is that all the members are really dual-type specialists. Lorelei is efficient with ice & psychic types, Bruno with fighting and rock types, Agatha with ghost and poison types, and Lance with dragon and flying types. Sad that this trend never returned in future generations.
Yes, but i would say that Lorelei is a water and ice specialist, i think it makes more sense since she has 4 water types and only 2 psychic types
They came close with something in Galar in the very late game. Marnie is pretty much a poison and dark specialist, Bede as psychic and fairy and Hop as normal steel (besides the starter)
@@anlev11 There's an interesting theory that Will is a gender-swapped Lorelei and Karen is the daughter of Agatha. Mostly because they share Pokemon and design traits respectively. Since Lorelei shares two of her Psychic types with Will and because of her psychic abilities in the adventures manga, that's why I gave her an ice-psychic duality.
@@Axecon1Lorelei isn't a trans, that theory is just pure garbage, Game Freak always left the Pokemon story very open for fans to speculate however that was just nonsense. Lorelei left the Elite 4 after being defeated by Red and went to her home in the 7th Islands. End of the story.
I always disliked the idea that the Gym Leaders and Elite 4 were type specialists. It would've been better to make them Move Type specialists, at least for the E4. Having Gen 1 Lorelei have a Tauros(Blizzard)& Alakazam(Ice Beam), Bruno with a Hypno(Counter)& Clefable(Submission). Gen 2 can have the difference even bigger, with Clair using Pokemon from the Dragon Egg group and Lance having Pokemon that learn any Dragon moves. With the Gen 3& Let's Go games, GF could've retconned the universe for a extra difficulty, acceptable change, and improving sales on buying remakes
I praise how you moved me from a skeptic to an enthusiast of Lance's Zapdos. I agree, eeryone throws in a Kingdra because it is a Dragon-type, ignoringLance's theme completely. Zapdos, while risky, should have been a complete mindblow for any 10-year-old playing this game and remembering Lance from gen I. It would have been such an adrenaline rush.
The Dragonites having Thunder works out as epic last-second foreshadowing, too. Of course they know Thunder. The Thunder GOAT is in that last ball, ready to burst out for blood
Lance is has a Mono Flying team, not a Dragon team, so Zapdos makes complete sense.
@@Ramza1987His cape even looks like a flight suit.
@@amesstarline5482 Right?
I like the idea of giving Karen Tyranitar, but it does run up against the problem of two story-significant bosses with T-tar as their ace coming pretty close together.
I thought that too, but narratively speaking, it is interesting to compare the Silver and Karen in that regard.
Silver struggled his way to getting his Tyranitar, and only realized later that he wasn’t appreciating it when it was only a Larvitar. He could only put up with it when it was weak, because of the promise of it becoming powerful, and it made things harder for the both of them in the long term.
Karen, on the other hand, just uses Pokemon she likes. Weak or strong, doesn’t matter. She didn’t have to “put up” with raising a Larvitar, because it wasn’t a burden to her: she raises the Pokemon she has because she likes them for what they are.
I feel like the tyranitar is more at home on lance's team as opposed to karen's. How i would change her would be by innovating more on the movesets rather than the pokemon themselves, by giving her a misdreavus with a set that consists of mean look, perish song, thunderbolt and protect, and giving her umbreon the NASTY mean look baton pass combo, as well as giving one of her pokes a moveset with curse + physical. her houndoom would have sunny day, solarbeam, crunch and flamethrower. i feel like someone who wins with their favourites having to go out of their way creatively to be a top elite 4 member would be the perfect place to showcase such unique strategies, even if they are more akin to modern gen 2 pokemon play rather than a single player experience.
@@shield_rat221 Is Gen2's AI smart enough to not just spam a setup move like Sunny Day, though?
@@Shalakor I mean that could be part of the changes for this fight, indeed that would be troublesome but imagine how cool it would be for karen to perish trap you for underestimating her cute little ghost thing
strongly agreed! honestly, i dont really like the changes made to karens team at all, its just changing the narrative of the game in order to suit a power curve and i dont think its in the spirit of the game to do so.
have you tried putting Wobbuffet on Will’s team? a gimmicky Pokémon would be cool to see (maybe if we expand his moveset slightly, without touching his nature). Also I think Mewtwo would be a great fit for Red, a cooler, stronger Psychic-type cat to replace Espeon (it also makes sense story-wise).
@@derekjack8941and yet the player chatches it and contains it...
@@derekjack8941 Every big boss in USUM's Rainbow Rocket arc uses a box-art legendary (Giovanni himself uses Mega Mewtwo), Hop uses Zacian/Zamazenta in the SwSh postgame, there's already some precedent
@@derekjack8941 I think it fits him perfectly though. Red has canonically caught every Pokémon in Kanto an he is the last trainer you fight in the entire game, he can use Mewtwo. I like to think that Red gained Mewtwo's trust, with the latter learning that not all humans are heartless beings (kinda like the first movie or Pokémon Origins), I think it would be awesome to see it in an actual ROM hack
I love this idea
@@matteolovito872 Mewtwo could even have a custom switch-in animation that doesn't involve throwing a Pokeball, like what was implemented in HGSS for the player's walking Pokemon (and Red's Pikachu).
I feel like Karen losing Team Members thematically defeats the point of her theme, she's using her favorites, it's better to keep her with her favorites. If anything, it would've been better to either give her an additional team member or give all of her Pokemon extra tools to get the job done.
Vileplume could've functioned as a Support Wall Like Umbreon does, with the difference being that Umbreon loses to fighters while Vileplume can sit on them all day, which gives Vileplume a breath of life into that teamslot. It also can't be understated that Vileplume also does cover a weakness of hers, which Tyranitar actually makes even more obvious, Rock/Ground Types. Murkrow and Houndoom loses to the Rocks while Houndoom and Gengar, her 2 heavy hitters btw, lose to ground types, Vileplume, on the other hand, says hello to both and can scare them away with ease. Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain are all you need for attacks for this, the other 2 moves can be support oriented to help her team after the fact, such as Sleep Powder for Gengar. Tyranitar doesn't offer that.
The idea of her team consisting of her favorites while also being oriented to help each other is a great idea for her thematically as it fits with the original idea, and the idea of her being an Elite Four Member because she knows how to switch her Pokemon around to gain an advantage would make her a more intriguing member than simply padding her with a Tyranitar that you could, instead, easily give to Brock, Blue, or Red
Fr buffing Vileplume would’ve done way more for Karen’s team instead of fanservice imo
Perfectly said! Just improve their movesets. Heck, even copy some of Stadium 2! In Stadium 2, her shenanigans are spamming Attract, Confuse Ray, and Swagger. So, Umbreon and Vileplume (her walls) could be really annoying with Attract and Confuse Ray/Swagger (plus Toxic, in Umbreon's case, and maybe Stun Spore, in Vileplume's case)
Well, she does have Tyranitar in the TCG so it's not completely out of left field but yeah it might make more sense for her to keep the Vileplume for coverage.
Not to mention they’ve given Silver a Tyranitar so it does already get representation in Johto.
I mean... yeah but no. At the end of the day she's still a type specialist and a thematic boss in a video game. She already throws out half her team in the rematch in HGSS, and her team is even more out there in Stadium 2. Not to mention the TCG. Besides maybe Umbreon which is a friendship evo after all, the only thing in her team she's actually friends with consistently is her ace Houndoom.
Besides, it's not out of lore to have more than 6 pokémon you rotate. Have you seen the list of partners for battle facilities? Some people out there with like 40 different Pokémon in their teams. You could just read Karen's speech as "Yes I like mostly dark Pokémon and a few others, here's the ones I'm using right now"
I hate giving Karen Tyranitar. I think it flattens her speech of using your favorite Pokémon compared to just strong Pokémon. I know you said that it doesn’t make sense for someone weak to become a member of the Elite Four but wouldn’t it be more impressive that someone got to the position she is in with Pokémon that on the surface don’t look strong. She can still be a challenge as long as you tailor her team to be about tactics rather than strength. On top of that, Tyranitar is already the ace of Silver’s team in your romhack so it kind of steals his thunder there too.
Ok… hear me out.
Replace Lance’s second dragonite with Skarmory!
From Bulbapedia:
Skarmory has much in common with the Andean condor and cranes, birds that are held in high esteem in Japan. It is also similar to many **mythological**, metallic birds such as the Stymphalian birds, the Gagana, and the Alicanto. In addition, its design resembles a **WYVERN**!
Do it please I beg of you!
It would also be another counter against Ice and Rock types
Interesting take, in my opinion from what I gather from this series so far, I feel like this might be one of those situations of straying too far from the original games. Having multiple dragonites seems almost necessary on lance’s team.
I like this
clair now has a gyarados so I think that would make more sense
His plan for fixing the gym leaders already has Skarmory on Jasmine's team, which is an important counter to Ground-type Pokemon. I think adding one to Lance's team is worth consideration, but he'll have to find a really good moveset to fit onto Lance's team -- something like Steel Wing, Hyper Beam, Sandstorm, and Sky Attack. (Any other move ideas?)
Honestly like the final rival fight the elite four should be a major challenge to show the player they made it. Something like the bdsp elite four with amazing teams or buff in moves.
Just maybe without the bullshit levelling curve, perfect IV’s and illegal move sets
No one like an evasion booster
The BDSP elite 4 is just the original really shitty E4 from DP though? Unless you mean the rematches, in which case again it's just the Platinum teams.
@@Cr3zantthe BDSP elite 4 team was EV trained and held items. They were made tougher from the diamond and pearl games
@@Cr3zant what? the BDSP e4 had full EVs and competitive held items and movesets, cynthia's garchomp had a yache berry and poison jab and her milotic had a flame orb-marvel scale combo
Not gonna lie fighting the legendary birds in that way would have been so cool. After fighting Articuno and Moltres you're just anticipating when the big Zapper is going to show
Except that we're fighting Blue and Blaine after Lance.
@@sheogorath6834this! on the other way though, it`s pretty cool to have a big surprise like having legendaries used by NPCs in the champion fight.
Yeah but remember you'd have to beat the Elite 4 before you get access to Kanto so Zapdos would be first due to Lance, Moltres second for Blaine and Articuno last for Blue before fighting Red who should have Mewtwo over Espeon.
Honestly after that battle Mew should be popping up flying around the trainer's only to fly off with Blue or Oak if not both coming up tje Mt finally finding Red after so long and seeing Mew fly off with text from them saying "...was that a New Pokemon?".
Interesting how you are giving the old gen some new life in the lore and power levels. It's gonna make that highlights video legendary to see and people's runs fun to watch when this is done
Zapdos is definitely a great addition for Lance, and the explanation for the three birds fits pretty perfectly, plus there's just a lot of very nice team choices in general. Also. Karen using "pokemon she likes" actually *fits* with the narrative of "Larvitar is perceived as weak by Silver," while showing "how strong it can be when someone *isn't* obsessed with power," so that's actually a much better fit than I think was even intended! Narrative parallels are always veeeeery cool.
I do feel like giving Zapdos to Lance *might* not prove to be enough of a change on its own, but it's also difficult to figure out what else one could change to help with that... perhaps if, instead of Rain Dance on Gyarados (which does nothing to cover any of his weaknesses, given his original team ALL resists fire), there was Sunny Day on Charizard (which helps protect Charizard/Aerodactyl and can possibly be used to justify giving Charizard Solar Beam as an answer to Quagsire, which it outspeeds), that would help a bit with cementing Charizard's role as a check to some of the water types... assuming fire mitigates the ice weakness, actually, but that wasn't the case in gen 2, so I guess it'd mean Ice Beam is STILL a huge deal... Or perhaps just the raw power of Hyper Beam makes slower 'mons like Quagsire just less of an issue in general?
Giving Lance at least ONE pokemon that can resist ice beam feels like it'd make a huge difference... but I'm not sure who would suit that role. Like, if he's to have a water type that's work as a check to certain 'mons, Feraligatr actually feels similarly thematic as a "dragon-enough" 'mon that can pick up Dragon Dance in later gens. Plus, it can potentially fire off some fighting moves to help crack ice types, while resisting the surf/ice beam combo that carried so many through Lance, making for a nice *pivot* instead of a lead. Then again, Zapdos with Light Screen is VERY good, which might be entirely enough?
Also! If wanting to reinforce Karen's narrative about "just use the ones you like," you could always just have her still using a few less optimal 'mons, but then have them raised to higher levels-- her spiel about using what you like could then be shown as something where she's worked harder and trained more to *make* that work, and then you could have Tyranitar feel like it's practically hypocritical of her... until you consider the Larvitar substory with Silver. Now *that* could be quite cool-- level is an underutilized mechanic for changing up the difficulty for a given pokemon, after all.
Also also! I feel like it does still seem strange for the Elite Four to be running 5-pokemon teams. Some of the cut 'mons feel like they could be kept in as 6ths if wanting to try and retain some of the teams' previous identities.
Will could perhaps have Wobuffet, as an unusual psychic type that never really gets a chance to be showcased prior. It would make for a strikingly strange pick, and fits well with Will's fixation on moves like Future Sight. Or perhaps Starmie-- a 'mon that only really sees use in Misty's team in Kanto, which always undercut its value as a psychic type. Though, this would mean Will's team would be largely comprised of water types, at that point, so maybe not.
Koga, meanwhile, could then keep a Weezing, to showcase some fire type coverage against possible steel types that would wall his poison-type attacks? It's an underrated 'mon that sports more of a solid statline than most'd expect.
Bruno, then, might even double down on the Steelix idea, as a further check to psychic and flying types. Or perhaps he might add on a powerful normal type that gets good use out of a high attack stat, like Tauros? Or a potential user of moves like Mega Punch and Mega Kick that has some coverage against flying types, like Electabuzz, perhaps?
And Karen, then, could also have the displaced Sneasel, if that's no longer to be Silver's signature 'mon. Which may well be a great contender for gaining several extra levels to raise its statline enough to justify its use, "despite being weaker," or some such? It's a 'mon that doesn't really get much chance to shine, in gen 2, much like Murkrow, so it'd be interesting to consider, in any case.
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Rambling, though. Tl;dr: cool stuff! I think the bird trio idea is particularly rad, as is the narrative parallel potential in giving Karen a Tyranitar.
bruh
I disagree on RD nothing for the team. Dunno if that's possible in Gen2s AI but if Gyarados could set rain when it gets low, like as a setup for the dragonite's thunder. That would be nasty and just fit for a bit of foreshadowing. While the team typing is flying and the theme is mostly dragons/pseudo dragons and power, using a thunder based strategy to build up to Zapdos would be brilliant. But don't know if you can do such "story telling by combat" in gen2's AI.
@@Metalhammer1993 You're definitely right that Rain Dance adds some neat flavor and utility by merit of buffing Lance's Dragonites' own Thunder, actually. I'd genuinely just missed that connection. That, however, only *magnifies* his ability to check bulky water types, which Zapdos was added specifically to deal with.
So, by "not adding anything," I just mean in terms of coverage-- since Bird Zeus now covers that role. Which wouldn't be a problem if it didn't also mean ignoring (or worse, amplifying) other weaknesses. Magneton with Thunder tears apart Lance's team under Rain Dance, save for Aerodactyl's Earthquake, and Quagsire's middling special then suddenly becomes enough to take out Aerodactyl and Charizard, while also giving it a more powerful option than Ice Beam (Rain Dance boosted STAB Surf) with which to hit Zapdos.
Sunny Day, meanwhile, is great on a team with zero fire weaknesses and five resistances to the type, as it suddenly gives Aerodactyl the bulk to tank a STAB Surf, as bulky non-Ice water types who get Ice Beam will have their offensive STAB weakened, as a tradeoff for their not having STAB Ice Beam (which, itself, then risks super-effective Rock Slides from the faster Aerodactyl-- making for a nice risk/reward balance).
On top of that, Charizard itself can then potentially benefit from Sunny Day to its fullest, by setting up Sunny Day to keep from being OHKO'd by a STAB Surf, and then firing off a Solarbeam that can heavily check the likes of Quagsire, whose only Rock-type attack in Gen 2 is Rollout (unless someone were to breed Corsola or such for Hidden Power as an egg move, but that's so specific that they've earned it, by that point, lol).
ALSO. Fire inherently checks Dragon's issue with steel types in general. Which also resist Lance's signature move: Hyper Beam. Having a powerful check to the only type that would realistically resist Lance's offensive is a huge deal. And hey-- if that means someone gets reason to use the oft-neglected rock type a bit more consideration for this fight, then that's another cool side-effect. Especially since Tyranitar would require outleveling Lance to obtain by that point, which could even be a reward for someone who trained of a Larvitar after seeing Silver's story, if you want some more ludonarrative consistency (because, then, Tyranitar, ironically enough, becomes the REASON Silver then would stand so much better of a chance against Lance, actually).
But I'm drifting off topic, again.
Most of Lance's team can learn fire moves that'd benefit directly from Sunny Day, and Zapdos/Charizard even benefit from the reduced accuracy to foes' Thunder. Gyarados would theoretically be the only 'mon hurt by Sunny Day, but, as Lance's lead, that can't really happen under normal circumstances. Zapdos, however, is notable anti-synergy, if it's running thunder, which may be a concern.
But there's also a completely different matter that Sunny Day could address: the utter uselessness of Typhlosion against Lance, a champion whose entire team had resisted the fire-type starter, while being obliterated by Ice Punch and STAB Surf from Feraligatr. Meganium always at least hit Gyarados and Aerodactyl for neutral damage, but versus this version of Aerodactyl, Meganium would, notably, also check its Rock/Ground moves while requiring three or more Wing Attacks to KO (depending on Leftovers and stat experience), meaning Reflect with Synthesis (both level-up moves) would actually give Meganium the edge. Which is also neat, because then every starter has *something* interesting they can do in the fight against Lance (assuming Sunny Day is there to make Typhlosion's STAB more useful).
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That all being said... no, gen 2 can't really do much in way of AI to make weather-use much of a thing. Rain Dance to build up Zapdos WOULD be some amazing flavor, though, if it could be made consistent... like removing it from Gyarados's moveset entire to make into a *field effect*, akin to the hail in Red's battle. In which case, Charizard, the world's most overrepresented Pokemon, might then be on the chopping block. As for powerful 'mons that could replace it who would benefit from Rain Dance, however, Scizor is the best that comes to mind within the vague "flying" theme, given its evolution from a flying type and its fierce aesthetics meshing well with Lance's team, while still being a Pokemon that's not too heavily represented within gen 2. My degenerate side does admittedly start screaming cruel ideas like "Swords Dance/Agility Baton Pass into Hyper Beams!," but even on its own, Scizor would have its nice new movepool to work with, and maaaaaybe still Swords Dance (given its Scyther's signature move, would would be brutal for Scizor's own Hyper Beam).
Having rain as a field effect for Lance, though, could ALSO then be one-upped by Red, later, so it doesn't necessarily steal Red's thunder to take that sort of approach. And, as you said, Metalhammer, Thunder then becomes a key move to build Lance's team around, a bit more, which does a *lot* for the bulky water problem if that Rain Dance can be kept consistent. -AND- a Pokemon like Scizor still gives Typlosion a role in the champion fight, even under rain! Since it resists Scizor's STABs, can still deal 2x damage with fire moves, and also can use those resistances to set up its own Sunny Day, for that matter, actually! Especially nice since then Typhlosion becomes a soft check to Zapdos's Thunder, by so doing. Very cool stuff.
Assuming field effects for Lance's battle would even be *possible*, mind-- let alone desirable. And also assuming that Charizard -> Scizor would be an appropriate and interesting option within Lance's new thematic design, mind.
(If you can't tell, I just find this stuff fun to consider and talk about, though-- excuse the endless wall of text!)
I understand that the Kanto inclusion is a defining feature of Gen2, but in reality it is an abysmal part of it. So a successful rom will dramatically change the experience in the Kanto section of the game. I feel like giving Lance Zapdos is the perfect departure point from the 'as expected' experience that the Jhoto map should be feeling like.
It's telling the player that from this point on the 'true to crystal' ethos will be slightly different and fresh changing energy will be added to the game for the now champion player to enjoy.
Crystal really ends with Lance because the following gameplay is lackluster. Your romhack will flourish from Lance by taking your now complete Jhoto team on a exhibition tour through what Gen2 Kanto should be.
I guess I'm trying to say that I can support the daring decision to give an NPC a legendary.
Kanto Pokemon should barely have appeared in Johto at all imo
Kanto Pokemon should barely have appeared in Johto at all imo
It took me until Annihilape was added to realize Bruno has never had a Primeape.
Maybe a controversial suggestion, but I think Hitmonchan should have higher sp. atk, probably the same stat as it’s atk. Hitmonchan, as far as I see, only knows a handful of special attacks which includes the elemental punches thief and pursuit (which you made those last two physical anyway). The sp atk only affects his elemental punches and wouldn’t feel out of the ordinary to give him the extra move potential.
You could flip it's special attack with its special defence giving it a nice base 100 special attack Edit: hitmonchan has a special defence stat of 110 that is more than it's attack stat
@@fishbot9902 or that! My suggestion was really that, Hitmonchan’s sp atk is useless otherwise. If it was raised or lowered it wouldn’t drastically interfere in battling against it, but if it did have higher sp atk, in this specific rom hack, it would only just make the elemental punches useful and not an unused-“what could have been” move kit.
Maybe someone out there is thinking “so if he had 105 sp atk that means he’s better at it than venusaur, arcanine, starmie etc???” But that’s missing the point. It’s not like hitmonchan is using flamethrower. It’s just a guy throwing silly punches with silly elements attached to them. Lol
@@fishbot9902 This is a really good idea! The elemental punches don't have high base damage anyway so it's not like they'd be overpowered. Swapping his special def and special atk could make him more of a full on glass cannon, which I think is fine for a Pokemon like Hitmonchan
@@fishbot9902 I know what you were saying. I was just going back to my suggestion on just matching his atk stat so it doesn’t cripple him with a really bad sp def and getting knocked out before he can even do anything.
I like the idea of matching them because ironically it would only make him as strong as he is next Gen and that is fine
Love the addition of the legendary birds into the game and i love even more the explanation to them. It really makes this project feel like an unofficial sequel to yellow
What I came up with was either giving him an Arcanine due to its lore and being the Legendary Pokemon, Ampharos bcus its mega is dragon type with its fur looking like clouds and or giving him Golem bcus out of all 3 trade evo's we never see Golem. These were the only things I could come up with that would make Lance more unique
You have so unironically _cooked_ with Zapdos on Lance that I am going back and re-doing some of my FireRed reteams for a decompilation hack that I'm doing. I remember when I played SoulSilver back in the day that it literally took the Elite Four to make me realise that maybe just using Typhlosion isn't the best idea, so it's good to see that they're now worthy of their titles of the best trainers in the region.
As appropriate as it would be for Karen to have a Tyranitar ace from a power perspective, I think it clashes quite a bit with your simultaneous choice to tie Tyranitar to the rival. You see him with a Tyranitar ace just three encounters before Karen. There's no rule that aces can't be duplicated (Karen's original ace Houndoom is also the ace of Archer, fwiw), but that kind of duplication in such a small timing window is, well, hmm. I can't say I like it. Especially since you want the whole evolutionary line to become an allegory of the rival's character arc, I'd say if there was any one Pokemon in Crystal that was "off limits" to any other story significant trainers, it would be Tyranitar.
There's also no precedent for E4 members having pseudos on their teams until Hassel in Scarlet and Violet. Again, not a rule, and has a counterexample (after 25 years of power creep, granted), but it is a pattern.
I fully agree with you, but I think it is funny with your last point that you forgot about Lance in Gen1 :D
True! How careless of me.
@@DiamondIceNS And now that I think about it...Drake in Gen3 also has a pseudo. Huh, never thought about it, but apparently Gen2 was the odd-one out in the first three.
I always said that Lance was a flying type trainer, and that's a hill that I will die on.
I feel like complaining that Koga had 3 Koffing, and then not giving him one Weezing is missing the mark a little. We do want to give him pokemon that reference his old teams, right? We want him to feel like the same gym leader taken up a knotch, and considering Weezing is really his ace in red and blue, It feels like a mistake to have it gone, even though that's exactly what Game Freak did.
I'm not terribly against tentecruel as a one-off, and foretress does feel ninja-ish, but I feel like both together add up to half his team diluting the character's identity. Again, this is a problem inherited from gold and silver, but one we should be trying to solve.
If we look at other games in which Koga appears, bulbapedia says he that his rematch team in the Let's Go games is actually tentecruel-weezing-golbat-venomoth-muk, which is remarkably close to the team you've proposed, if we take giving that golbat an evolution for granted, and I feel like that Foretress-for-Weezing swap might be better.
Part of me wants a big overhaul on Bruno. Like, the Hitmons are lackluster and have a different iconic trainer; the dude who hands you a Tyrogue and who fought you in Saffron city back in the day... but that also means gutting half his team from g/s/c, and that's also probably not right. I dunno, though I'm oddly nostalgic for Bruno as that Elite 4 member who has a clear *vibe* but mixes two different type identities, with fighting types balances by some rock/ground/steel energy. I wouldn't be against a Steelix-Heracross-Golem-Machamp team with one more fighting type, but outside of the Hitmons there's only Poliwrath and Primeape, which are Chuck's and bad, respectively.
Actually, side note- can I request that the Karate Master in Mt. Mortar get a Hitmontop added to his team? He legit doesn't have one in any version of the games, and I always found that disappointing.
I'm mixed on a Karen Tyranitar. I would agree with you in the name of using it *somewhere* if you hadn't already given it to Silver though.
It doesn't fit Karen's *vibe* she's not a trainer who uses King Gidorah to kick your ass, that just doesn't fit her design, her dialogue, or her reason d'etre. I'd rather see Lance use it to diversify his types than Karen. With the buffs you gave Misdrevus, I'd almost rather see her be split between dark and ghost types, like Bruno classically was between fighting and onixes in gen 1, than see her with a Tyranitar. Hard disagree on that one, Tyranitar doesn't feel right for Karen.
As for Zapdos: My issue is that I feel like this is too big a break from what Gen 2 already was, not unlike the Tyranitar. You've cautioned people making suggestions in the past that you won't consider changes that make the game feel like it's no longer the Crystal they remember, and I think this is you proposing exactly one of those changes. Something that is too big a break from the original games, something that would have made the experience of playing those original games fundamentally different enough that we would still remember it clearly today, through the fog of time and nostalgia. My understanding of your design philosophy up until this point has been trying to make a version of Crystal that lives up to what we remember of it through that fog, where the rough edges are sanded off and the failings that we didn't notice or didn't stop us from having fun as kids are fixed for real rather than edited out by our memories.
I think this is too much of a structural change, like refusing to make gyms 5-7 linear would have been. You have purposefully rejected changes like this in the past because they broke with precedent too much, I think having Zapdos on Lance's team is too much.
I think this guy is kind of hypocritical in a way. He wants to make "a ROM fixing Crystal so that it still feels like a new rehion with nrw cool discovered pokemom and not just kanto 0.5" and then proceeds to add some random theory about Red giving other trainers (who he canonically just happens to meet and not bwfriends) legendary birds cuz they're now appearantly endangered when in reality they're just rare and hard to catch?
He has venomoth which was his ace in yellow and he has muk from his red and blue team
I think you captured a lot of my sentiments after watching perfectly
Pretty much what youre getting at is something i noticed too: He's interested in making trainers more difficult and competitive while eschewing the world building aspects of their teams. I once read that Karen's team is actually "Pokemon that would be creepy to encounter at night".
Also, maybe I'm canonically wrong about this, but I thought legendary pokemon were, like, one pokemon. They're not a species, theyre unique and diety-like
@@ivo9202 Some of thenlater ones are, but I don't think there was ever enough lore written (in the games at least) about the Legendary Birds to back that claim. The Beasts in g/s/c started to be creatures of local folklore enough that it became more reasonable to think of them that way, and the series never went back.
I just want to play it already. I’m so stoked this happening. I started with Pokémon Blue but have always been a Gen II guy ever since playing Silver Version. Quilava and Umbreon are my #1 and #2 Pokémon of All-Time, even to this day. I love the changes to the Gym Leaders’ Teams, the buffs to the lackluster Gen II Pokémon, the level curve WHILE KEEPING THE NONLINEARITY THAT IS TRUE TO WHAT MAKES JOHTO, well, JOHTO and even these Elite Four changes! Thanks for your hard work man, and thanks to everyone that is helping you create such an awesome experience for myself to look forward to.
I think what Will desperately needs are pokemon that can inflict status. Instead of Slowbro, why not say... Hypno, which can use hypnosis and thunder wave/zap cannon as well? Another pokemon I think would fit nicely on fit nicely on Will's team is Porygon 2, not only because he looks like Will a bit, but its typing can spice things up and can provide decent coverage with its wide movepool along with psychic.
You're doing such amazing work! I've been loving the playtesting streams. You're making the most interesting Pokémon content on TH-cam these days
Something that I had found interesting about Koga's team is that his ariados was really only there to be a baton pass set up. I mean it was supposed to up it's evasiveness then switch to fortress, who then was meant to set up hazards. But ariados sucks so bad that you'd never know this was a thing because you'd kill it first. It's a shame because Koga's whole thing is actual strategy around status moves(like a ninja) but never really got to utilize them.
9:35 Really felt like the line shoulda been "This is the Karen you know now, and you WILL let her speak to your manager."
Nice updated teams. Only suggestions I would say are Wobbuffet replacing Will’s slowbro. Slowbro feels partially redundant on his team with slowking and it would be some rep for a mon that can be quite threatening if you aren’t prepared for it. Not to mention you have at least 2 more major trainers in Kanto that could easily have a slowbro as well. And although Karen’s gengar may be the best counter to fighting types, something like qwilfish could throw a lot of players for a loop. Especially if stats were buffed and it hasn’t been used elsewhere. It could be a light nod to PLA or even just a way to weaken fighting types by poisoning them and taking hits for the rest of her team. Otherwise, all updates feel fairly thematic or no brainers.
I agree it would make it a complete gen 2 team.
I personally don't see a reason to give Tyranitar to Karen. You've already given Ttar to the rival and are clearly trying to avoid duplicates. Her Houndoom is already an excellent ace so let her open up with Sneasel to set up with Reflect, an egg move, for defense against Bug and Fighting. You've already removed Sneasel from Silver's team.
Was not expecting that much of a backstory on Zapdos but that’s incredible. Love it. Awesome to see someone with so much passion for the Gen 2 games and the potential they have.
I think the point of Karen was to fight dirty. She focuses on causing status moves and lowering accuracy. Having a power house like Tyranitar defeats the purpose of fighting with your favorites. I would've saved that for Lance or kept it for the rival. Why not use some of her strategies from Pokemon Stadium 2? In round 1 all of her Pokemon knew the moves : Attract , a status move , confuse inducing move, and a coverage move. In round 2 she had nastier strategies like Mean Look + Perish Song, Swagger + Psych UP , and Para flinch with King's Rock.
Also it's cool to think about how Karen rose to the top with just those strategy
Lance was just a product of the limitations that the dragon type had in Gen 2, and they made at least some sense out of it.
The only other options that I can see Lance having (realistically) are Tyranitar, Feraligatr or Steelix; but including the birds is a cool idea too ngl.
Smith: Won't give Kingdra to Lance, because Clair already has it as her ace
Also Smith: Tyranitar will be the ace of Silver and Karen lol lmao
Also also Smith: Won't let Bruno keep Hitmontop because Chuck simply uses one.
Eh, I think Sneasel is a better fit for Karen, thematically. Her team has a lot of lurking, slippery Pokemon with Vileplume being the weird outlier. Sneasel is still pretty powerful. Yeah, Tyrannitar not being in the E4 is a crime, but even her HGSS rematch team consists of the more speedster dark types or the ones connected with hiding in plain sight
This, Sneasel (although a bit odd at the time) is a perfect fit and it first her aestethic
Her Spiritomb and Absol in HG/SS where an odd placement though
Naw TTar is the best pick.
There's this dude known as Pedro Araujo who makes animations that re-tell the story of Gen 1 and 2. I remember one of his videos show that Lance's Charizard is actually an offspring of Red's Charizard
Gotta say, I love all of these decisions *except* Karen's Tyranitar.
I get what you were saying about her needing to have a strong team, but she doesn't need a pseudo legendary to be powerful, and it goes against her philosophy as a character. Obviously it's not unrealistic to say she might like tyranitar regardless of strength (because it is very cool), but when her few lines express her want to not care about strength, giving her one of the strongest pokemon in the game feels very hypocritical. Not to mention that you built the rival's entire character arc around tyranitar as well. That felt earned, I don't believe karen's does.
I would suggest going for more of an "optimized" theme with Karen. Keep the idea of "winning with favorites" (though I do agree with swapping Vileplume due to its lack of thematic relevance), but make Karen's team as efficient as it possibly can be under the constraints of her favorite pokemon. Instead of tyranitar, I would go for the improved Sneasel, utilizing the Blackglasses item and giving it access to Crunch(Bite is an egg move in vanilla gen 2, I think it's reasonable), Ice Punch, Metal Claw, and Slash. The choice of held item and the best possible moves it can learn shows that Karen is a very skilled trainer, but Sneasel still not being an amazing pokemon (though I do believe it would turn out to be a strong threat) shows that she truly does stick to her ideals, even in her position of immense power.
Additionally, due to sneasel's scarcity in gen 2, it further enhances the idea that she prioritizes pokemon she loves; sneasel being rare yet not incredibly strong proves that it would *be* one of her favorites that she talks about using.
Just a thought, though. Love what you're doing here, and I look forward to seeing the best version of crystal come to fruition.
Her having no Sneasel was odd, considering it looks like Karen too lol.
Yeah Ttar doesn't fit her. I could see Lance using Ttar. Sneasel would have been a good add, though less powerful.
I like the idea of Steelix fitting Bruno’s vibe
But I think Donphan could fit the bill too, it makes me think of bodybuilders flipping tires. Plus Donphan could use a little more attention in this region
I want to say I love your videos and love what you’ve done with the game. I love the way yo’re trying to improve the game while keeping the Crystal’s identity in check. I like most of the changes in this video and would love to see them implemented some day (including your idea about the legendary birds).
With that being said, I’m going to HARD disagree with giving Karen Tyranitar. It makes sense game mechanic wise and also helps explain her top spot in the elite four. However, I think that undercuts the important lesson that she’s trying to teach us: winning isn’t as important as using your favorites. My personal head cannon is that she doesn’t like Tyranitar, which is why she doesn’t use it. However, putting that aside, she also has 3 important characteristics about her team that work better without Tyranitar:
1. She has a theme of “pet” or “domesticated” Pokémon. All of her dark types, the type she specializes in, are based off of animals that could be seen as pets (or at least accustomed to people with Murkrow). Even Vileplume could be seen as having a potted plant or part of her garden. Granted, Gengar doesn’t fit this theme neatly, but it’s still a playful Pokémon and could fit nicely in a house, unlike Tyranitar, who would probably destroy any house it was sent out of its ball in.
2. Having Tyranitar would make it Lance’s position as a trainer. Not only does going from lower statted Pokémon of Karen’s team help make Lance that much more of daunting challenge, Tyranitar also counters a huge chunk of Lance’s team, which makes him seem a lot more vulnerable to Karen Usurping him.
3. Finally, it makes Karen less badass by having her be implied to rely on a tyranitar. The fact that she’s the second strongest trainer in the region and her team has such low stats makes it incredible as to how she got that high ranked. It also might be explain some of her wonky move selection (it would be hilarious if she beat Bruno by spamming sand attack). It really plays into her whole deal and I say it’s important to keep.
Now I’m not saying you can’t change up her move sets (I’ll take Morty’s moves on Gengar any day), but PLEASE don’t give her Tyranitar.
1:56 Red's Espeon is a reference to the manga where he saved an Eevee that was experimented on by Team Rocket to be able to evolve and de-evolve between Jolteon/Flareon/Vaporeon at will but when it stopped changing forms when it evolved into Espeon later in the series.
Giving Karen Ttar goes against her ethos and it cheapens Silver's ace. I think she should have her original team with better movesets + a 6th Pokemon to compensate for the team's stats being weaker than other E4 members.
Just going off vibes, I think Cloyster has that same "cool/michevious" energy of all her other Pokemon, while definitely not seeming super OP, so that's my pick.
Practivally speaking, it can resist ice which Vileplume/Murkrow struggle with and deals with ground types which Houndoom/Gengar can't. Let it have explosion fron gen 1 to actually take out opposing ice types, rather than just wall them, and I think you'd have a better way of preserving her identity while still upping the challenge.
It’s at this point that I realise that Gen 2 is a lore game. We know it’s not challenging, it’s not designed to be challenging, it’s designed for a message, and arguably conveys the core message stronger than any other game: pokemon are your friends, not tools for war. This is the generation that introduces the friendship mechanic, your pokemon get stronger when you befriend them.
The your antagonists are set up in deliberate opposition to this message, and then shows them failing. Silver treats his pokemon like tools and is hostile to outside help, and he is punished for this, his Golbat cannot evolve and he cannot find anyone to perform his trade evolutions, thus he is underpowered for his final confrontation. Meanwhile Team Rocket are even nastier than in the first game, maiming and torturing pokemon and eventually hijacking the radio (your constant companion throughout the adventure), but they are are classic bullies, as soon as you stand up to them they crumble, they are revealed to be pathetic, like all bullies. I get it is a little anti-climactic, it certainly puzzled me as a child that the final "boss" was a nameless Executive, but that’s in keeping with the game's message.
And then there is Karen, the embodiment of picking your favourites over strength, a demonstration that you can get to the top by optimising friendship….. which is where you kind of lost me on this video.
Now I’m not totally opposed to changing up everyone’s teams to make them more challenging, and I’ve nothing against
Karen getting a Tyranitar (mostly). I’m dissatisfied with the reasoning though. Everything seems to boil down to the fact the teams are not strong enough, and when it’s for the girl whose entire deal is that strength doesn’t matter, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This suggestion that she could never succeed with that stupid weak team…. and from there the implication is that she only has Tyranitar because it’s strong, not because it’s a favourite….. and that sucks.
I like that you called the legendary birds near extinct rather than one of a kind, since even back in Gen 1, there is a bird keeper that explains they are just so rare as to be legendary
That explains why several trainers have them, I've always thought they were one of a kind.
Filler or not, we saw the baby Lugia and it’s parents in Johto
So legendary Pokémon are capable of breeding but not through trainer intervention
I almost think giving Ttar to Karen almost takes away from how cool it was on the rival's team. Like, it's this big moment with the rival that now he has this insanely strong Pokemon, and then like four battles later some other lady has it? idk
i mean, i feel like calling the last member of the elite 4 "some lady" kind of downplays how impressive it is. If anything it kind of hits home that t-tar is so rare that the only other person to have one is a member of the elite 4
Give Karen a Nidoking instead considering she already has plenty of Poison types
There problem solved
Silver shouldn't have one. His whole issue is despite using powerful Pokémon hes failing because his heart isn't in it. Him randomly picking up a lavitar and somehow not throwing it off the team definitely doesn't work at all compared to Karen picking up a larvitar and training it up because thats what she does reads alot better. Its also kinda neat how you hear in this game that silver heard larvitar was strong and that knowledge would've come from people knowing it becomes a ttar due to karen.
The only thing I'm not sure about is giving a Tyranitar as an ace to both Silver *and* Karen. It usually feels like each of the characters tend to have their own aces to set them apart from the other trainers, but here we have two characters with the same ace in really close proximity.
in Gen 1, all of the elite 4 members were using 2 types;
Lorelei had ice and water
Bruna had fighting and rock
Agatha had ghost and poison
Lance had dragon and flying
The game never said it outright, but that's clearly what the devs were going for, partially because there just weren't enough dragon/ghost types to go around.
The idea was dropped in later generations, but not completely. Koga is poison/bug, Bruno is still fighting/rock, and Karen is dark/poison (a bit redundant...). Will is... just Psychic, as far as I can tell. Lance is still dragon/flying.
Gen 3... all monotype. Though Steven was steal/rock/ground. Gen 4 only had 2 fire types, but Flint was all over the place with his team. By then, I think they completely forgot the idea of the Elite 4 using 2 types instead of just 1.
Great video as always but... Something's bothering me. In your explanation of why lance should have zapdos, you mention red's team... With the starters, pikachu, and snorlax... And didn't mention espeon. And there's also the fact you gave espeon to will, and talked about the fact that... If legendary are not obtainable, there must be a reason...
So you're saying mewtwo is the 6th Pokémon of red ??? *Excited squeal*
Ik you said it was too weak to fire, but Forretress still just needs to go to Jasmine instead. The rest of her team's strong enough to make up for it anyway. That said, I would replace Koga's with Nidoking (yes, I know you already fought Giovanni's in Gen I, but since the remake event is unavailable in Crystal, that's not too relevant). It should know Earthquake, Sludge Bomb (like Crobat this was originally unlearnable by Nidoking), Thunderbolt for Water types, and Ice Beam for Ground types. Meanwhile Janine gets Nidoqueen with the same moveset.
For Bruno, he needs to get Chuck's Poliwrath (which you didn't mention taking out of his team) with an upgraded moveset - Surf, Dynamic Punch, Ice Punch (for Grass types), and Hypnosis.
Karen's Gengar could have Confuse Ray replaced with thief, which would give it a Dark-type move that fits with the rest of her team, deal solid damage with it still being Special, and steal your item since it has none.
I don't mind the deal with the birds. I actually think it's cool. My real gripe with the gen2 elite 4 that was fixed in HGSS, was the lack of scaling after kanto. Is there any consideration for having a higher leveled elite 4 after the player has 16 badges? Or is that not easily feasible with the codebase of the game
I "think" he's confirmed there will be Elite Four rematch changes. I do for sure remember he's definitely confirmed Gym Leader rematches, so it'd be crazy if I'm wrong about maybe remembering him mentioning higher level Elite Four.
I've been on board with everything you've put out so far, but Karen **has** to have all her normal team. That's the most significant thing about her: she just uses her favorites, not "powerful" Pokemon. It's probably the most iconic line to come out of gen 2 and to ignore that... idk, I think vileplume can work.
Especially since silver had tyranitar as his ace and important story beat only 3 battles before.
Before you announced Zapdos, I thought you were gonna suggest Lugia lol. Seems another flying dragon-like beast in a way, but I like your Zapdos explanation. I thought maybe another justification would be because he already has Pikachu on his team; another electric. Very interesting analysis though!
I thought of a lv 60 yanma or something lol
Karen not having a Tyranitar is the biggest missed opportunity
I LOVE the idea of Blaine having Moltres, Lance having Zapdos, and Blue having Articuno, I know you said people will disagree but I am ALL FOR IT!
how is it a missed opportunity? the exact point of karens character is that she DOESNT just use the strongest pokemon, she uses the ones she likes. trying to tack ttar on just for the sake of making a romhack more difficult just ruins who she is as a trainer.
I adored this! Really liked all the changes made, especially the T-tar rep on Karen's team! And the Steelix on Bruno's, and all the lore and story for the legendary birds. Witt that said, and after seein the moveset given to Zapdos: Quagsire exists. Its a water/ground type immune to electric, whom I assume can learn both ice punch and ice beam. It can alsk learn stab Surf, and rock tomb. So yeah, Quagsire would still run through Lance's new improved team. Except for Gyarados, but Gyarados isn’t a threat, just send in any electric type and its dead, and Quagsire cleans the rest of the team. So I say, give grass coverage to one of them dragons. Idk, hidden power grass, or sunny day/solar beam combo or something, to counter the one water/ground type that’s immune to Zapdos.
Fun fact, the only way to legit fight a trainer Heracross is at the Trainer House. However, it requires Pokemon Stadium 2 and Mystery Gift. Through that feature, the girl, Carrie, has one of 3 teams, from which you can battle. One of which leads with a Feraligatr. This team has a Heracross.
where do i get this rom hack? looks fun!
I'm not going to lie, I didn't like the idea for Lance at first but that Majima boss battle song was more than enough to convince me
A few issues here. Removing Jynx for Espeon for a multitude of reasons missed quite a few things. Lorelei used Jynx for her Ice-typing. Jynx is also part Psychic. Will could lean more into Jynx's Psychic-typing to differentiate it from Lorelei's. Otherwise you run into an issue where you start preventing other trainers from using Pokémon differently just because a previous one had it.
The reason Will didn't have an Espeon wasn't because they gave one to Red. Red's reasoning for having an Espeon is because his entire team revolves around the four starters and two one-of-a-kind Pokémon. His Espeon is the Eevee he got from Celadon City and it being an Espeon shows the love it had for him.
As for Karen - giving her a Tyranitar thematically ruins the whole point of using Pokémon she likes. On top of that, Murkrow should have kept Pursuit instead of Faint Attack. Even with its buffed stats, it makes sense to make Murkrow be an underhanded fighter that'll make people think twice about switching out to another Pokémon.
And then there's Lance. Hard disagree with Zapdos. Canonically speaking, Red is the one who caught Zapdos. It makes far more sense to have Lance replace one Dragonite with Kingdra. Yes, Clair has one. But they are siblings and it should reflect the difference in strength between the two of them and show that Clair respects Lance and wishes to be his equal. You opted to give Clair 3 of Lance's Pokémon and said her having 3 Dragonair was boring, but you left Lance with 3 unchanged Dragonite.
The best way to show the difference in power with Kingdra would be to have Whirlpool's accuracy upped to at least 90, then have Kindra learn Whirlpool to trap and whittle down the player, protect itself with Protect, and overwhelm the player with Hydro Pump and Hyper Beam.
Lance definitely needs a Tyranitar. It fits his whole theme of Dragon Pokemon that aren't dragon types. Plus it's a pseudo legendary, which is a common trend that Champions have.
You dont want to put Kingdra on Lances team because it would ruin Claires identity but you put Tyranitar on Karens to ruin your rivals new identity??? That seems much worse to me seeing how your rivals story is something you experience through out the game and carries more significance.
its better than the game company doing... like gengar better moves from a gym leader and yet elite four gengar moveset is wtf lol
100% This. I think a lot of these changes feel arbitrary and weak thematically.
Why let Red just give the legendary birds away?
Lance clearly went to clean up the power station and caught the bird in his own right.
Blain could clearly go and catch moltres, it's like his whole reason for living.
I really like the blue bird going to blue 🐦
Bro nintendo should hire you.
Gamefreak not Nintendo Gamefreak develop pokemon he said it in the video
I quite liked the "red caught the legendary birds and bequeathed them to other worthy trainers" justification (whilst _not_ making them their aces), and in general I like how you avoided the pitfall of other similar videos going "the elite 4 should be filled with Johto pokemon".
That said: did exeggutor really see "a _lot_ of play in gen 1"? IIRC the rival's exeggcute doesn't evolve until he's the champion, and he was the only trainer I recall having an exeggutor- even then, only if you don't choose squirtle as your starter (thus replacing it with Venusaur). The Oak glitch fight has one I think, but that really shouldn't count imo.
Also, Koga didn't run 4 koffing? He had 2 koffing, a muk and a weezing in RB, or 3 'nats and a 'moth in yellow.
You miss the point here. The Gen 2 elite four is only supposed to be the beginning of the journey. They are meant to be a step up from the Johto gym leaders while preparing the way for the Kanto region to come. They are not meant to be the penultimate obstacle like in most games because that’s not the part that they play. They are intended to bridge the gap. So having threats like Exeggutor, Xatu, Muk, Crobat, Hitmonlee, Machamp, Umbreon, and Houndoom are fitting for the purpose that they play. Trying to turn them into some uber tier fighting force contradicts why the johto elite four is there. Johto is very much Kanto’s little brother and to make their elite four completely OP totally undermines that
i cant imagine how, if this romhack is meant to solve issues like kanto not feeling like a step up in difficulty, things will scale up even more in its e4 if the johto e4 is already powercrept like this. that being said, they definitely do need to be improved upon to a certain degree. but i wish more romhack designers would know when to use restraint. its a hard balance though.
Love the “Clair is a Dragon Master of the Sea” and “Lance is a Dragon Master of the Sky” piece. Well said.
man the way you handeled birds was genius, especially for a pokemon game. dont mind giving red a mewtwo instead of espeon?
I’m predicting that as well
Alright, you've convinced me. I was very skeptical of the Zapdos Lance thing, but I think it makes sense with your explanation.
This series is really funny to me because it's just "Yeah, gen 2 is really good, all you gotta do is fix literally everything"
Honestly, I always saw Lance as this powerful trainer that uses very "mystical" pokemon on a stature of pseudo-legendary, legendary, mythical, you name it. Basically beasts that are very rare and out of reach for normies, which usually, coincidentally those beasts are Dragons.
Hence why he had aerodactyl. A rare fossil AND a pseudo dragon and Zapdos, being legendary, makes perfect sense, given its also a flying type.
I know you partly stated that Lance is always meant to be a kind of flying trainer; but given that
1. It’s seen on NOBODY’s team in Gen 2
2. It’s incredibly powerful
3. It has a 4x ice resist to counteract that weakness a bit
4. It has boltbeam coverage to hit everything neutrally
5. It’s based on a Plesiosaur
6. It’d give an explanation as to why Lance had Whirlpool to give to you
I’m surprised you didn’t mention Lapras. Lapras is very tanky, has a great typing, fits the dragon/dinosaur theme, and with a moveset of Surf, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Psychic; it could put up a great fight against any Water types with Ice coverage or any Rock types while also doing at the very least good against literally everything else it gets a chance to hit.
Because Lance caught the red Gyarados in the anime, you would think he would have that on his team too instead of the blue one
You're supposed to catch the red one tho
6:55 The people who spam that quote from her aren't gonna be too happy to hear this
I really dislike replacing Vileplume with Ttar. Without the former, Karen doesn’t have a team member that doesn’t lose to Rock- and Ground- types. Some move adjustments would’ve been fine.
Additionally, you’ve already made Ttar Silver’s ace and an important part of his growth. I’m worried making it Karen’s strongest would take away from that. This change seems like it was just done for the “cool factor”.
Edit: Additionally, if you really want Ttar to be on Karen’s team, then let Houndoom remain her ace. Her whole thing is using her favorites, so having the favorite Pokémon be her ace and having a pseudo legendary as just a part of the team would be a great way to show it.
You guys just don't ever get it. Silver shouldn't even have a ttar especially not as his ace. All Starters should be aces if they are on someone's team, only exception is Leon.
Karen having a Ttar fits perfectly because Larvitar and Pupitar suck but are cute. Her doing that casually while Silver wouldn't have even bothered with a Pokémon that takes so long to get good shows the difference in philosophy and also the fact that silver has alot of growing to do.
Even though the gap between Gen 1 and 2's release wasn't that long in real life, returning to Kanto as a kid was such a beautiful nostalgia trip. The legendary birds making a canonical reappearance would have just added to that. They should have given Red Mewtwo as well.
I don't know if this was adressed in "fixing johto gyms" epsiode but i feel like you should replace clair's gyarados with a lapras because:
- Lance already has a Gyarados and it would be nice for Clair to have even more differing team
- Lapras is used on Iris' team in Black 2/White 2 and she's a dragon-type specialist so I think it makes sense for lapras to be in dragon-type gym leader's team
I can't believe this man managed to convince me that trainers should get legendaries, but here I am. This actually makes sense given the explanation.
There's a Pokémon card called "Blaine's Moltres", making your story even more valid.
Hear me out on Lance. What if he were a champion with type variety? Sure it doesn't sound very dragon master like, but there's no good way around it with only two. That being said, he is the champion with representation of the past Elite Four with a Wally-like twist with all dual types!
Of course, he keeps Dragonite especially as Karen will rock Tyranitar. From there, go with Lorelei's Lapras & Agatha's Gengar plus give him Exeggutor (a Pokemon highly associated with Blue). As far as Bruno goes, he had two Onixes in Gen 1 so in two trades, Lance gives a Poliwrath for Onix (which evolves) so this Steelix goes to Bruno in exchange for Heracross.
Heracross, Gengar, Steelix, Exeggutor, Lapras, & Dragonite as Champion Lance's Crystal team!
I think giving Lance a Zapdos would also fit the implied mythical creature theme- because the Thunderbird, like the dragon variants, is a mythical flying being.
Another thought: Giving Will both Slow-Evos and a Girafarig fits a sort of theme of "twins".
Having Lance's Dragonite be at lv55 would be more fitting because Dragonair evolves at lv55
I honestly can't wait to play this romhack, you've hyped it up so much
You had me all the way until 13:00. While I heard you out fully, I get your logic, I 100% disagree with the idea that the NPCs should have the legendary birds. There is a much simpler reason to why the 3 legendary birds are no longer in gen 2, and it has to do with the destruction/disruption of their native habitats where they roosted.
The Abandoned Power Plant (AKA: Kanto Power Plant) according to in game information was said to be abandoned years before the start of Gen 1 despite parts of it's machinery still working. Given the Pokémon Mansion which is said to be an abandoned burnt down mansion has both the same look and feel as the Power Plant with all the rubble being strewn around it is reasonable to assume it would be in a good amount of disrepair from years of neglect and that the roof would have holes in it which would explain how a giant thunder bird would be able to get inside the building. During the 3 years between gen 1 and 2, they would start renovations and repairs on the power plant when Zapdos was away and once construction was completed, Zapdos would have lost it's nest.
The Seafoam Islands have all but melted away due to the climate change in the area after the volcano that destroyed Cinnabar Island. One entrance was permanently sealed off due to either debris or cooled lava and the other is left all but a small cave of just rock. Articuno would have either escaped prior to the events of the eruption or would have been away with no way to return, leaving it like Zapdos without any way to return to it's nest.
Lastly we have Victory Road. Over the course of years and with the new construction of the Pokémon League Reception Gate and routes 26 & 27 towards Jhoto it's not unlikely that all that victory road had experienced a cave in during it's construction which is why the 2nd and 3rd floors of it look significantly different in Gen 2 compared to Gen 1. Given the fact it would then have to be cleared would then explain why the path is so barren, has a direct exit to north instead of to the east, why route 23 is now arguably one of the shortest routes in Pokémon, and why there are no trainers in it. Why would a trainer risk themselves training in a place which has caved in prior. This of course means that Moltres's nest on the 2nd floor would have been inaccessible during the clearing of it and the only way now down to that location now in Gen 2 is a fall from the 3rd floor.
All three legendary birds unfortunately evicted by their homes either by nature or by man's intervention. Forced to find new homes after theirs was taken by them.
The idea that red could have caught them is certainly plausible, I just figure that there would have been more fanfare or mention of them if they were caught by someone or now owned by someone given they are living legends after all and are fairly famous. To me it just makes more sense that they were driven from their homes and as time went on, people forgot about them which is why we never hear about them from anyone in game.
I love how thematically you gives them a better team. I 100% agree with keep Lance like the flying Dragon’s master, that always was part of his character!
I CAN NOT WAIT to play this, I'm just about to finish a playthrough on my 3ds and will really appreciate everything youre doing!!
I agree with your idea with the legendary birds but personally I see it for different reasons. I personally am not sure if it should be considered canon that red caught the legendary birds. Every pokemon Red has, if you go off of pokemon yellow (the only way he could contain all 3 starters, as I honestly don't think blue would necessarily give up his), has been a static pokemon, and specifically ones you either don't really have to go out of your way to get.
And I feel like honestly Blue, Blaine, and Lance would've probably all been willing to seek out one of the legendary birds themselves.
I personally think saying red would give the legendaries away to fitting trainers gives a bit too much personality for what is meant to represent the gen 1 player (particularly pokemon yellow being he has pikachu and all 3 starters), and it also makes sense for those 3 to seek out those pokemon. Blaine has less of a reason to go after powerful pokemon in general, but moltres in particular makes sense due to what you brought up. And maybe Blaine ended up pursuing moltres after cinnabar was destroyed and he had to travel to find a new spot for his gym anyways, and maybe before that he only didn't because he didn't want to leave cinnabar or something
As a player who started with R/B, followed by G/S, I'm thrilled to play this romhack! 🤩
I think people are reading too deep into it. Lance can have a Kingdra and it wouldn't devalue Clair's team at all. Clair is not a dragon master yet. That's why she doesn't have the strongest dragon type pokemon of the region. Lance on the other hand is the ultimate dragon master. He can use any and every dragon type pokemon in the game including Kingdra and other dragon-like pokemon like Charizard, Aerodactyl and Gyarados. Speaking of Gyarados. Gyarados, while being a flying type pokemon can't actually fly. It can hover over the ground like a Geodude but it cannot fly so the whole; Lance, the master of sky theme is not something that was intended by the developers. The idea between Clair and Lance simply is: Lance is THE dragon master and Clair is a Lance lite.
I do like the Zapdos on Lance but I thought Tyranitar would have done nicely on HIS team rather than Karen. I thought she could keep Houndoom as her ace but bring on a Sneasel. It would break up the flying thing for Lance though. This is still a cool idea!
I agree. It'd break up the flying aspect but still stay in line with the mythical aspect. I say zapdos is a great idea and a ttar replacing the other Dragonite is also a great idea. Stadium 2 did this and it was a smart choice.
Considering multiple other champion level trainers (N and Mustard for the most part) had legendaries on their team, I don't see zapdos as an unreasonable decision at all. I actually like it alot!
“You can’t make the pseudo-legendary of your region dark type and not give it to the dark elite four”
Yeah they’ve done that twice now.
I understand the point of giving Lance like powerhouse pokemon that are very offensive-sided, but it just feels wrong to not give Lance a Skarmory.
I know Skarmory is known for its defensive purpouses, but it can learn Curse as well, so it has potential:
-Curse
-Steel Wing
-Drill Peck
-Hidden Power Ground
The moveset could be better optimized, but I think giving him Rest or Sand Attack doesn't feel good for a highly offensive team.
It also serves as a valuable switch-in for opposing Dragon and Ice types, hitting the seconds in return 🤔
Gamefreak must’ve been high on something when coming up with the Johto E4 teams. They didn’t even give Karen a TTar for the HGSS rematch teams
Your channel is great, dude just wrote an entire story on what happened to the legendary trio of kanto birds
I think a more cooler explanation as to why Lance has a Zapdos on his team is that in Gen 1 the power plant is abandoned and in decay maybe because of Zapdos. What if the people of Kanto asked the new champion such as Lance. Remember Lance got a promotion between the gens. To investigate the power plant and drive out the pokemon that live there so it can be restored to how we see it in gen 2. Upon searching around the power plant he stumbles around he comes across Zapdos and he ends up catching it. You could even have an NPC in the power plant reference how Lance took back the power plant. I just think it's lame that Red or our player character would have given him it and that's that. You think the champions take hand me downs to become the best of the best? Can't wait for the hack though.
Hear me out. For Lance, ultimately, my take on the line up would be: Kingdra, Charizard, Aerodactyl, Zapdos, Tyranitar, and Dragonite.
I get the leaning into the Bird Keeper Lance persona, with being a master of flying dragons, but I still think he should probably have Kingdra. He's used both Kingdra and Seadra in several games now: it's an official member of his roster. Particularly, it should probably replace Gyarados, since its nerfed so heavily in this gen, while Kingdra, only has a weakness to dragon in this gen, making it a good opener. Plus its a humbling moment that the ace of the final gym leader is simply the opener for this battle. After all Claire's real identity is as the person in Lance's shadow, they share a specialty, but her approach is immature and petty.
That said, I would personally also rather he use a Tyranitar than Karen. Not only is it a pokemon hes used before in Stadium 2 and more importantly, the Manga (while Karen hasn't). But I personally always associate Lance more rolling with several Psuedo legendaries like his rematch teams and the PWT. Besides, it actually makes for a good team comp pick, giving a nice counter to Ice types (since Aerodactyl and Zapdos, are also weak to ice), as well as better base stats than even Zapdos. Thematically, its even a nice character parallel to see that now that Silver has grown, he gets a pokemon species from Lances team, like he took on something from the advice Lance gave him about raising his mons with care (fun fact its a Manga plot point of Silver borrowing a Tyranitar from Lance, but returning it later). Meanwhile Karen has never used one, and it clashes with her theming, something that's been utmost importance elsewhere. Or maybe we throw that out and both Karen and Lance use T-tar, why not!
What d'ya think?
I always tought that Falkner of all people should have an Articuno. It makes sense to me that someone so dedicated to bird pokemon as far as to make it his symbol and gym team would make it his life's goal to catch the strongest and most exotic bird pokemon alive, and Articuno seems majestic and in line, also the color scheme fits real nice. So when you mentioned Zapdos it made sense to me, strong trainers need and want the strongest pokemon, and it is only logical that they have the means to get them.
I really like your idea of distributing the legendary birds like this!!
Also, I threw a comment on your Rival video with a suggestion for his team that I felt would have some good story impact. Just letting you know so it isn't missed!